subtlety

[real panther]

that i knew

ty for answer my bro 🙂

[modern marten]

Meanwhile I'm here wishing they brought back Serrated Bone Spike. Shuriken toss is just not cutting it

And maybe I'm doing something wrong but it really feels like they don't want doing melee

[lilac stag]

Who is actually pressing toss? Lol

[modern marten]

idk but ther'es so many melee mechanics where half the time I'm standing outside an aoe circle twiddling my thumbs

[lilac stag]

dump energy before leaving. Step back.

[modern marten]

https://tenor.com/view/still-waiting-sonic-the-hedgehog-gif-25691840

I really need to learn patience and not watch my meters then.

[modern marten]

I use it to dump energy when I'm out of range and build combo points

[spark tusk]

Disable them in combat

meters

[lilac stag]

we don’t need a ranged ability to do any more than that. We need the actual melee ability and toolkit fixed.

If you can’t focus because of meters turn them off or set them to healing and interrupts.

[modern marten]

I seem fine with melee. it's just whenever I have to step away for anything my damage drops significantly. But yeah turning them meters off is going to be my first priority xD

[tribal blade]

i have em on always but never look mid combat because it can mess with my mental

[lilac stag]

don’t use cds before mechanics going on

[tribal blade]

and it's useless info most of the time

[lilac stag]

Haha @alpine wraith wdym KB not lasting.

[alpine wraith]

i did a 13 the other day and the fuckers kept dying before it ended

fuck assa we stay sub no dmg but who am i to talk with the elite crew

push higher keys like im doing 15s

not even invited to 12s

[lilac stag]

they always know best

[vestal escarp]

No need to press kb for dmg

[lilac stag]

Big brain. Only use cds on boss. Just shiv packs.

[alpine wraith]

i can garrote and rupture same mob 2 or 3 times

[hoary coyote]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/review-of-the-retribution-paladin-changes-in-patch-11-0-5-guide-writer-feedback-348146?utm_source=discord-webhook
is there something like this for sub ?

i would like to see the comments

[alpine wraith]

fuu might do one

but it is unlikely sub changes are very few

vs paladin or hunter ones

[hoary coyote]

im wondering if there is any way to save the spec

thats all i want 😄

[near rivet]

fix bugs

[alpine wraith]

yea it is silly how much behind we are by bugs

[hoary coyote]

tbh atm its not the main problem

[lilac stag]

It’s a huge problem now being compounded by dumb changes

[hoary coyote]

new changes without any tuning is the problem

[hard wren]

imo they should just turn sub into an aug evoker type spec and be done with it

survival hunter wasn't melee from the start, spec changes can happen

[near rivet]

generate shadow clones for other players

kek

make shadow dance an external buff that mimicks the target

[hard wren]

cdr for the raid

i mean outlaw pvp talents already halfway there

just make sub a buff spec based on that

[near rivet]

distract as a smoke bomb with raid-wide avoidance buff would work too

[lilac stag]

Go play Aug

[hoary coyote]

ppl are about to lose their mind 😄

[hard wren]

I want a melee aug

[lilac stag]

It’s called ret

[hard wren]

seriously, I'm gonna make forum posts

ret has less support than rogue now

[lilac stag]

Hahah

[hard wren]

poisons, aoe blind + cc

I love it

just add more, make me full support

[lilac stag]

Go make your post. More stupid ideas clogging it up from devs looking at it. Perfect.

[vale pine]

soon™️

[ornate ridge]

I knew it was a mistake opening a class discord chat

[hard wren]

call it stupid, we will see who is laughing when it becomes reality

[ornate ridge]

My brain is already mush from 1 guy

[vestal escarp]

Literally the same kit pally has tho

[sour geyser]

How are new changes looking?

[hoary coyote]

awsome

[sour geyser]

Whats this supercharge mechanic

[hard wren]

guess so even immunity.

[sour geyser]

Has anyone checked it yet on ptr

[slate nest]

Tried to log in today, realms seem to be down on PTR

wanted to try out sub in general

I'd love for a sub return next patch, actually being able to push high keys and not being down 40% on dps bcs im not sin

[hard wren]

u aren't even ready to hear my other ideas, like the way to fix fatebound is to give u agency, letting u decide to pick the coin on the ground instead of it being totally passive

[sour geyser]

More i read more i question the guy who said "awesome" for sub changes

If super charge is going to give 2 more finishing value, then its kinda garbage on anything below or above 5th cp supercharge

[pliant topaz]

Alright you’re burning the kitchen a little too much. It’s vandalism at this point

[slate nest]

They are minor buffs for sub, maybe we could get nimble flurry actually fixed and also some buffs to spells would feel nicer, so we don't just do 1 mil less than a sin that just spams dots

[hard wren]

why above 5th? i think u can exceed max cp

[sour geyser]

If you exceed above 5th then it becomes clunky

[pliant topaz]

It exceeds max cp so on a 7 point finisher it can be instead a 9/10 cp finisher

There’s no clunkiness…

[hard wren]

secret techniques at 10cp finisher

[slate nest]

old 10 CP rogue

[hard wren]

imagine that

with cold blood

[sour geyser]

Am i being trolled here

[slate nest]

no

[sour geyser]

I'll just wait for someone to test

[pliant topaz]

It’s an insanely strong talent

[sour geyser]

No way it goes above 7

[pliant topaz]

Dude everyone’s tested it

[uneven scarab]

[slate nest]

Dude, the talent legit says, adds 2 more cp value

[pliant topaz]

Bros yap
Maxing

[slate nest]

if you use it on 7, it's 9 then

[uneven scarab]

This guy cant believe it!!

[pliant topaz]

Lmfao

[uneven scarab]

riven profile pic adds up

[slate nest]

trueeee

[uneven scarab]

She the goat tho

[slate nest]

but I'm no better with jinx tho

[sour geyser]

I put that profile pic 10 years ago jeez

Who changes discord pfp?

[uneven scarab]

Nah riven is cool

[hazy breach]

I did a writeup in #1271971289396936735 , its not exactly what you asked for but fuu's article on wowhead is probably getting released soon

[uneven scarab]

No bs

Best character in league

[pliant topaz]

Wrong that’s zed

[slate nest]

wrong again

Jinx

#1

since 2013

Anyways, I hope we get nimble flurry bugfix also that we get some dmg buffs

4% overall in sim is VERY weak

[steel horizon]

Also we have to try to use coup de grace on 2 cp or less otherwise it wastes CP

🙂

[slate nest]

wat?

[alpine wraith]

no coup is like 6+ inside dance that has not changed

[steel horizon]

Im trolling lol

[alpine wraith]

but we kinda ditch trickster

it is down bad

[steel horizon]

Cus the other guy didn't know that supercharger can exceed max cp

[slate nest]

if they fix flurry, it might be okayge

[sour geyser]

If supercharges indeed work as mentioned in that TC post, darkest night procs are > trickster?

[slate nest]

yes

[alpine wraith]

DN is a bit different chan coup

[hazy breach]

What

[alpine wraith]

they both do diff things

[sour geyser]

For ST

[alpine wraith]

for st deathstalker does quite a bit more

[hazy breach]

I have no idea what youre asking

[sour geyser]

Yea

[slate nest]

you used trickster for ST?

[alpine wraith]

but not because of DN

[sour geyser]

I should have led with st

[sour geyser]

No i am just looking it up

[hazy breach]

If darkest night procs does more damage than coup?

They already do?

[slate nest]

Ye xd

[sour geyser]

Yes but the margin goes higher now

[hazy breach]

But coup gives 5 stacks of flawless form, thats the big thing

Not really

[slate nest]

bro is more clueless than me on sin xd

[sour geyser]

Maybe but i am looking from pvp perspective

[hazy breach]

Idk comparing exclusively coup damage vs darkest night damage

Just doesnt make sense

[sour geyser]

Not everyone is here for raids or m+

[steel horizon]

Yea we pretty much are

[alpine wraith]

pvp is a bit diff because everything is nerfed so hard

[slate nest]

PvP perspective, you still go deathstalker bcs DN is still gonna overperform, I play everything on my rog, PvP and PvE aswell

[sour geyser]

There werent separate notes on supercharge mechanic for pvp so i assume it wont be affected?

[slate nest]

Hopefully

[pliant topaz]

Shouldn’t be

[slate nest]

If it's not, then we might be back to oneshotting with secret tech xd

[sour geyser]

It should be massive diff since you have a guaranteed crit

And trickster was still useful for bgs cuz of sap

• coup weird ass mechanic

[slate nest]

For bgs trickster was nice on big groups

[sour geyser]

Too much utility

[slate nest]

Where you would just melt from flurry

even with the 10% less dmg than tooltip

Bcs sub is still very good in pvp, even tho big pvpers are swapping to feral

[sour geyser]

Ferals just better haha

You cant even compare the pressure

[slate nest]

Yeah

Feral is giga broken, should be nerfed so it's not that good

[winged sedge]

Correct me if I’m wrong, this spec with the upcoming patch is now strictly on a 90s timer, right?

[slate nest]

ye

[winged sedge]

Man

[slate nest]

No shadowdust so you can't lower it

But no 2 min blades

so it should line up with flag

[winged sedge]

Why’d they take dust from me

It was cool

[slate nest]

yeah, I miss it too, but 3 charges on symbols

[winged sedge]

Wai- 3?

[slate nest]

Ye

You get one

and 2 more from the new talent

[winged sedge]

Oh lmao

[sour geyser]

Still the cdr was so good

For everything

[winged sedge]

Yeah I liked dust cuz it worked on Dance

And SecTec

[sour geyser]

Triple secret tech

[slate nest]

The cdr was very good for big bursts, but it made you use vanish aggro on sub which in pvp makes you weaker bcs you don't really reset

[sour geyser]

Thats fine imo

[winged sedge]

Simply do not play PvP problem solved

[sour geyser]

For pvp double kicks gouges and kidney after the nerf

[slate nest]

Unless you meet a dk + healer

[winged sedge]

: ^)

[sour geyser]

Not to mention blind getting faster

Too useful

[slate nest]

Cheap shot getting buffed in pve IS GIGA, oh sorry, it means nothing still? ah thought so

[lilac stag]

wanting an Aug spec as sub in melee and now PvP chat. We really hit rock bottom as pve spec.

[slate nest]

I gave in, playing sin on pve

bcs you do that much less dmg

as sub

[lilac stag]

you’re inting as sub right now if it’s any type of prog or keys

[vestal escarp]

Pvp spec

[slate nest]

ye

[slate nest]

Eh, debatable, since it was very good in PvE for a lot of patches

[sour geyser]

You dont like griefing pugs?

Sub is a grief spec

[lilac stag]

even pugs ain’t inviting a sub rogue

[slate nest]

Legion almost whole duration, Dragonflight was good for sub (at least season 1 until they gutted the class)

You don't see sub anywhere

0.1% pressence

Lowest pressence class

spec

sry

[lilac stag]

We ended up carrying a sub rogue in GB10. Did less dmg overall than the prot pally

it wasn’t meant to be a carry

[slate nest]

Yeah, expected

Honestly sub is so weak that it makes BM hunters look good

[lilac stag]

and that’s arguably a good sub dungeon

[slate nest]

I trolled a gb at 2am KEKW

Forgot to repair

My weapons broke on first boss

nobody had autohammer xd

Key ruined

I could only shiv, kingsbane, fan or tempest xd

[lilac stag]

jus run out at that point

[slate nest]

yeah we dropped key

and went to sleep

[vale lagoon]

man how are we even gonna use symbols in keys now

i swear we're getting more complicated instead of less lol

[slate nest]

line it up with secret tech

I would say

[vale lagoon]

yeah but in aoe sectech comes up in like 15 seconds

[slate nest]

You have 3 charges

10 sec each

on 30 sec cd

[vale lagoon]

i mean, ur dance/sectech timing is currently limited by symbols cd right

[slate nest]

you get 4 charges for 4 secrets

[vale lagoon]

so like if u have more symbols and u send dance/sectech on cd for trash

how tf u gonna play boss fights lol

[slate nest]

We will see

[vale lagoon]

just go in with 1 dance and pop CDs when they come up?

[slate nest]

fuu will make it work

trust in fuu

[vale lagoon]

that's like peak outlaw gameplay tho no?

[slate nest]

Peak outlaw gameplay is gambling

[modern marten]

Just play Subtlety class fantasy and do subtle damage

[slate nest]

E TU

[vale lagoon]

yeah ig we just become a flatline spec again or something

but then like the df s1 way is just a much better flatline spec

[keen dome]

Buff sub. Give us the big 'ol buff. 350% BP damage. 200% backstab damage. uh... 1000% Sectec damage. That'd do it.

[vale lagoon]

seriously crazy to me tho that people in here will say trickster is needlessly complicated, and then turn around to bitch about df s1 build being "boring"

[lilac stag]

You do realize the biggest complainers in here are doing so when they’re forced to play sub.

[slate nest]

Nobody is forced to play sub currently xd

It's giga shit xd

[keen dome]

where's the sad sealion meme

I'm forcing other people to watch me play Sub though.

[slate nest]

I got forced to reroll sin

[lilac stag]

was BP spam engaging? No
Was anything done to fix it? No
Is spamming storm > evicerate anyu better? No

[slate nest]

storm evis?

Oh

trickster

Yeah it's garbo

But

[keen dome]

Hey, sometimes you get a spicy little surprise charge in AoE.

That's a fun shakeup

[lilac stag]

manually spreading rupture is shit

give that back to assa

[vale lagoon]

oh true people can just change roles huh

[slate nest]

Put rupture on main target

fuck rest

[keen dome]

Get rid of Rupture on Sub and put the damage into something more interesting.

[lilac stag]

what rolls? Please tell me you’re not thinking sub players actually have blue names

[slate nest]

YES

Give us another finisher that actually does something

Give us

DFA

[keen dome]

no

[slate nest]

but make it aoe

and cool

[lilac stag]

you have dfa in pvp. Leave it there.

[keen dome]

SecTec is cool and my friend, DFA had it's time.

[slate nest]

DFA in pvp is still garbage xd

[lilac stag]

Just copy paste princess. Spec is saved.

[vale lagoon]

ops typo

[keen dome]

give SecTec back it's clones though that'd be nice. I hope they're having a ncie time whereever they've ended up

[vale pine]

secret is rly good tbh

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

spec is not dead

[keen dome]

Contract trinket literally has the animation they could copy.

Just slam that onto SecTec. Bam solved we've fixed sub

[vale lagoon]

yeah u right lol, ppl who are like 10 year assass can just change their name blue and then bitch about a perfectly viable iteration of sub

sucks

im too naive i guess lol

[vale pine]

what is the discussion about buglety?

[vale lagoon]

oh im just saying sub seems to be returning to a flatline spec in keys again LOL

and in my few days here I'm seeing a bunch of ppl talk mad shit about df s1's version of sub

[vale pine]

i am not sure i follow

[slate nest]

it's already in F tier, nobody invites you and you do mini dmg

[vale pine]

how sub is a flatlien spec

[modern marten]

I think it's just overly complicated. When I do my rotation correctly I'm usually topping the charts

[lucid lily]

As in it’s dead I think

[vale pine]

s1/2 subtlety was good because it could use BP a lot more

[vale lagoon]

3 stack symbols + aoe situations refreshing dance/sectech much faster

like we'll just be doing our small rotation much more right, in theory

[vale pine]

the cdr on dance from cp is weakly tuned

so you overestimate the amount of extra dances you get

[slate nest]

I hope we get a world where sub is actually worth playing over sin but it doesn't look like it at the moment, only people who really love the spec want to make it work (like me)

[vale pine]

also you get the same cp

duringd blades

[vale lagoon]

ofc

[vale pine]

and almost similar results during symbols

in a sense

aoe does not mean too much

the extra symbols

is also

only one instance of symbols per talent point

for an entire dungoen

*dungeon

so thats not that much

[vale lagoon]

wait what

[vale pine]

yes

[vale lagoon]

why is that not important tho

[vale pine]

thats how cooldowns work

you still generate one stack of symbols every 30 secs

but not all 3 charges at the same time

so to make it easy to understand

[slate nest]

You get 1/30 sec

[vale pine]

you use symbols 3x

then it will come back in 30 sec

with 1 charge

and you will never get more than 1 charge unless you wait more than 30 secs

which you can, thats the dynamic the talent gives you

[slate nest]

I mean, it's better for opener

[vale pine]

but you don't get more than one extra cast oevr a fight

[slate nest]

But that's it

[vale pine]

so is dust

you don't rly get much new benefits

[slate nest]

We get almost nothing to be honest

if sims really show only 4% dps increase

then we are still dead

[vale lagoon]

hmm, i guess im just thinking from the perspective of pisslow 11s then rip

[vale pine]

just to give you an example

[vale lagoon]

bcuz in lower keys u dont have to blow all 3 symbols on the first or even the 2nd or the 3rd pull right

mobs just die

[vale pine]

to illustrate vanish vs. the new talent

on a fight

5 mins

dust gives you one reset of vanish every 2 minutes

so 2 mins in the fight

you have 2 extra charges

(you start with vanish off cooldown)

[slate nest]

The current no.1 sub is at 2900 rio, which is, very rough for a spec, only bm has that low rio distribution and it shows, the 2 specs nobody wants on keys is sub and bm

[vale pine]

so just 5 mins

is enough to already outdo the talent

but there is more

[stiff stirrup]

fuu are the trinket sims in your spreadsheet removed?

[vale pine]

if you spec in extra vanish

you use vanish every 1 min 30

so you would get one more cast in 5 mins

means you would double the value of the replacement talent

in terms of extra symbols casts

[vale pine]

no they timed out

will re-sim all profiles start of next week

we sill work on the sub apl

and others might do work on their 11.0.5 updates too

[slate nest]

What if the flurry bug is actually fixed next patch but blizzard are too embarrased about it being like this the whole time that they just didn't tell us

[keen dome]

That'd be nice.

[vale lagoon]

ig the only thing holding dust back is the fact that ur not necessarily using it to reset symbols lol

but now it begs the question of why tf are we even speccing the extra symbols talent then

[slate nest]

rotten under

[vale pine]

because we get extra combo points

[vale lagoon]

esp if deathstalker is gonna be meta

[vale pine]

from higher shadowcraft proc amount

so we can go

and use a 2nd dance

during our next flagellation/blades

[lilac stag]

or they just like the color

[slate nest]

what does it mean change name to blue?

[lilac stag]

look at the color of your discord name

it's assigned by role

so at somepoint sub was your marker. most dont know they can change it if they wanted to lol

[vale lagoon]

u mean we legit need the extra symbols from shadowcraft to get our 2nd dance by flag cd

even if we do the thing where we hold a dance

[vale pine]

well we need more combo points

[slate nest]

I won't my main spec is still sub, but I'm playing sin until sub gets good

[vale pine]

to get higher cdr

and shadowcraft is good for it

[slate nest]

get back to 10 cp? would be fun xd

[vale pine]

trickster has less of the problems

but well

[vale lagoon]

and this applies even in m+ where we can farm mobs for cp huh

[empty plume]

sub should just be allowed to pvp for free

off global no cost cheap and gouge

damage for kicks and stuns, ez top tier m+ spec

[vale pine]

no, its better in m+

[slate nest]

if we could get more dmg for stuns and stuff

we could be strong

play pve like you play pvp

I like the idea @empty plume

[empty plume]

kick for damage increase is not a foreign thing, definitely existed in a few forms

[amber ocean]

with shadowblades becoming 1.5 mins baseline in 11.05, do you think we play deathstalker dark brew next patch? in raid

[empty plume]

I guess I just feel like, sub wastes its entire CD window when forced to feint/blind/kick/crimsonvial

[slate nest]

yeah, but actually using your 7 cps on a kidney and it maybe doing a huge dmg aswell could be strong

[empty plume]

because our popoff opportunity so short

even just moving certain things to be off global during dance, or blades

pve only ofc

[slate nest]

yeah

in pvp these would be broken

what we say

[empty plume]

LOL ye ofc

[slate nest]

make it be 0% effectiveness in pvp

[empty plume]

the two are fairly separated nowadays balance wise

[slate nest]

and we gucci

you mean how sub is at least still playable in pvp? yeah

[empty plume]

don't people play assa in pvp (right now)? idk don't pay enough attention

[vale pine]

they do

[pliant topaz]

Well better than that if you have downtime in the key which you usually do

[vale pine]

technically yes

because you sometimes hold symbols duringt he winding down of a pack

for your next one

[keen dome]

Finally, the city of threads spec.

[slate nest]

Idk I play sub

But i don't do arenas currently

since I'm focused more on my pve journey

[vale pine]

wow, that statistic has small numbers

[keen dome]

What's it from?

[vale pine]

https://arenamaster.io/ladder-stats

[keen dome]

Huh, damn. That's tiny

[empty plume]

damn that's low population as fuck

like cataclysm classic

[keen dome]

Oh, their sample is around 7000 players?

Kinda weirdly small

[vale pine]

ye

idk

[swift merlin]

This site just doesn't scrape enough, or whatever

[vale pine]

i haven't found a good site for statistics

[swift merlin]

However it gathers data

[keen dome]

Yeah

[swift merlin]

I believe it's selected based on accs

And probably ripe with bad selection bias

[cobalt vapor]

Pvp is very niche in this game

[keen dome]

https://check-pvp.fr/stats?bracket=3v3&rating=1800&region=eu Probably has better but I believe it doesn't actively scrape and only does it if you search for something manually

[vale lagoon]

oh actually the first dance would blast in that dungeon no

[keen dome]

So it's still a pretty bias'd selection so hard to get a good idea on the actual population

[keen dome]

[vale lagoon]

see now i wonder how tfd even works

[vale pine]

maybe #pvp has a better statistic

[vale lagoon]

like if we get restealth

and the tank pulls another pack b4 6 seconds

but we ourselves don't open and just sit in stealth

do we still get tfd

[hazy breach]

Its just combat based

Its got nothing to do with stealth

[round latch]

Dear fuu sir,its that day of the week.. fuutube guides when

[vale lagoon]

how's combat actually determined tho lol

[hazy breach]

Fairly arbitrarily for trash. Mostly proximity based

But for bosses the entire group enters combat once theyre pulled

Like if you heal/buff/do anything to an ally in combat you enter combat, if you go near an enemy in combat you generally get into combat

[vale lagoon]

oh yeah so there's absolutely a way to finagle tfd right

i feel like when the tank full chain pulls it won't work

[hazy breach]

Its probably not worth it as often as you'd think

[vale lagoon]

but like, the moment u get restealth/out of combat

and u hang back for abit

hmm

[hazy breach]

But ye the 6s is weird

[vale pine]

soon™️

[hazy breach]

Had hoped for entering stealth instead

But alas, that was probably deemed to powerful

[vale pine]

just make it

out of combat

without any other components

no 6 second timer

[vale lagoon]

entering stealth would be kinda pog

[hazy breach]

Ye but out of combat/entering stealth is mostly hte same thing except one also works on vanish

[vale pine]

the timer just screams negative player feedback

[hazy breach]

But

[vale lagoon]

yup u force it with vanish

spec into double vanish maybe?

[hazy breach]

Ye but in typical sub fashion everything has to have a caveat, some jank too it

We cant just have nice things, we have to lose something else

Its still wild to me they decided to go with 24s flag and 16s blades

[vale pine]

for no reason, it literally showcases bad development practice

[vale lagoon]

yeah they seem afraid that the spec would be at all playable

[hazy breach]

I refuse to believe any thought went into that decision other than making sure the uptime of those buffs stays roughly the same as prepatch

[vale pine]

it is 100% that

but i don't think most of recent changed ended up extreamly well thought through

[fallow nimbus]

0 thought found

[keen dome]

Yeah, it makes sense in that way even if it doesn't actually make sense as a long-term change.

[hazy breach]

Because it so clearly fucks over the spec and makes us have to use up premed before blades to even have a chance of getting 2 decent sectechs of

So instead of the swifty oneshot macro with symbols+dance+blades we have to use + > > >

[fallow nimbus]

Just go 20 20. We lose some flag time but gain blades with the lower cd

[keen dome]

Yeah, if only

[hazy breach]

I'd prefer 16/16 with more sectech cdr/lower cd

Or even 16/12 or something

[keen dome]

Either would be better.

Just to help it feel more enjoyable to play

[hazy breach]

I think it plays fine now with the premed stuff

[keen dome]

Slice it in half and shove the combie gen into Dance.

[hazy breach]

But its just not very intuitive

[oak ice]

hey guys, was trying sub on dummy, what ability/talent making my combo points to fully refund sometimes when i'm finishing ?

[hazy breach]

Shadowcraft

^ speaking of not intuitive

[oak ice]

i see

[fallow nimbus]

All people said sub has too many micro cds and now when both are on the same cd we need to micro manage cds in the opener even more

[vale pine]

problem is

if they e.g. make cdr lower on secret

they will just nerf secret

unlike other specs

[hazy breach]

Ye but i think thats fine

[vale pine]

there is no unequal gain

secret was already nerfed before

i don't think we should take out more damage from it

but ofc for better alignment it migth make sense

[vale pine]

shadowcraft, inev, premed

flagelaltion, secret technique, shadow techniques, symbols of death, shuriken tornado

the spec is so intuitive

every toddler can get rank 1 parses

[formal helm]

[onyx hare]

They heard us when we said 90s CDs were good

It’s a real shame that’s all they heard

[vale pine]

it is a niche

but we are not forced into it

[void hound]

well its a good start

[vale pine]

its not a choice anymore

"you shall do 90 secs and like it"

[keen dome]

Maybe next tier there'll be a load of 90 bosses and we'll reign supreme

[fallow nimbus]

We are the middle child and get socks for christmas

[vale pine]

we have them this tier

sub is good on the last 2

which for most people chatting in here

[modern marten]

Pickpocket should damage enemies without pockets

[keen dome]

Ye

[vale pine]

is the only fight that is relevant

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[vale pine]

(which is a bit BS, but )

[keen dome]

But what if.. more

Also socks at christmas own @fallow nimbus

[onyx hare]

More bosses, but no good 90s trinket for us

Imagine

[keen dome]

Double passive let's go

[vale pine]

i might look back at SL

and make some analysis

of 90 sec trinkets, fights etc

but still need to do some other 11.0.5 stuff currently

[keen dome]

That'd be an interesting retrospective

[vale lagoon]

man i feel like at this point

they just need to set symbols + dance + sectech to 1 stack at 30 seconds

fuck the double dancing thing

and then also make shadowed finisher just a full conversion into shadow damage + smaller damage boost

because holy shit nothing works with it

[vale pine]

i don't know

i think we just need more cooking

but this time without the weird ingredients

[vale lagoon]

we're literally all weird ingredients man

shadowed finisher busted

sectech busted

blades busted

they proved over and over that they physically can't code mixed damage mechanics

[void hound]

sub = BUSTA

[vale pine]

busted usually means good

so you got my attention

[vale lagoon]

this is oldschool busted lol

like "ow my jaw is busted"

ow, my spec is busted

literally none of the nodes work and im down like 20% overall dmg in a key from real specs

[vale pine]

"from a real spec"

🤣

[keen yacht]

Am I jjust insanely cooked in thinking that dustless sub is gonna feel bad

[vale pine]

it feels okay

100% something to get used to

[vale lagoon]

it feels okay but no dust fixes nothig

bcuz u already play no dust in keys

[keen yacht]

I'm so used to trickster sub with the 3 sectecs

[vale pine]

it fixes the perception of it as a problem

[keen yacht]

I'm scared

[vale pine]

and makes it easier for blizz to design

we had a discussion about it the other day

even tho dust is SOOO BUSTED

[vale lagoon]

yeah makes it easier for them to rework 2 years from now when the next expac comes out KEKW

[vale pine]

subtlety isn't even the top played rogue spec

it is the least played in m+

[keen yacht]

Yeah, sin is winning out in raid and M+

[vale pine]

and this with people saying dust offers

the most OP think in wow

turns out, people rly like to exraggerate on a problem

[vale lagoon]

dust feels nice when it resets ur cloak alongside ur dmg cds to cheese a mechanic and farm 100k dps or something

[keen yacht]

Dustless sub kinda makes it even eless viable in keys? idk

[vale lagoon]

meanwhile sin is just straight up 500k dps stronger

as a spec

[vale pine]

it stays the same

the patch is rly

not a end of world

or anything

[keen yacht]

Oh for sure

[vale pine]

its just sub stays the same

less defensives

[hazy breach]

Idk non-dust was probably better before anyway

So ye should just be better dps wise

[vale pine]

less options to adjust to encounters

[vale lagoon]

yeah baby dps gains

[vale pine]

but overall similar in output

or a minimal gain

[keen yacht]

Okay

I imagine sin is getting more throughput with the twist the knife envenom overlap shenanigans

[vale pine]

i can't say

[vale lagoon]

yeah sin is up there with frost dk or some shit while we gain what was it again

[hazy breach]

Not mcuh

[vale lagoon]

4%?

[hazy breach]

Sub gets way more numerically

[vale lagoon]

hahaha

[keen yacht]

oh neat

[vale lagoon]

but still just 4% right

in keys

[vale pine]

i haven't followed

but is MA not already 1-2%

[vale lagoon]

oh does sin go like double vanish now or what

[vale pine]

not sure how supercharger or ttk impacts it

[vale pine]

my got buffed by a lot even without subterfuge

3 sec duration -> 6 sec

they lowered the crit bonus to 25% tho

[vale lagoon]

lol crazy that they get all the "from stealth" bonuses

they've really taken everything frm us

[vale pine]

thats fine

its more a consequence of deisgn

DF did add a lot of focus to add stealth/dance options

and for sub to differenciate

we got more nodes for dance

so dance does more damage

overall just means

now with dance removed form the general tree

subtlety still has a higher focus on dance

[vale lagoon]

no like im just memeing about literal spec description lol

"dark stalker who leaps from the shadows" or some shit

that's sin now, they jump u from stealth and do a ton of dmg

whereas we just dance

[vale pine]

idk

they don't do direct damage

they just dot

https://tenor.com/view/more-dots-gif-10004432

[vale lagoon]

i swear one single empowered garrote tick is like more dmg than backstab

so can we rly say they got not direct dmg

[vale pine]

well

backstab is

literally a wet noodle

[vale lagoon]

btw fuu let me ask you about an idea lol

[vale pine]

sure

[vale lagoon]

what if black powder worked like crimson tempest, where the damage scales up in aoe situations

i feel like one HUGE discrepancy between m+ sin and sub is that we have nothing like that

[teal prawn]

Sin has two nodes that increase damage from stealth

Really it’s just imp garrote

[vale pine]

one solution

[vale pine]

but

keep in mind

nimble flurry

[uneven fern]

W

[vale pine]

nicu, gz

[empty plume]

replaced my Normal tt

very pog

[vivid cobalt]

isnt nimble flurry irrelevant next week? i thought trickster is dead for keys

[empty plume]

everyone is going to die without 1hour tricks

shit is OP fr

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

If the other dps is dead, you may look better on the meters as sub.

[vale pine]

it needs a bugfix

it seems like nimble flurry is buggy

but deathstaleker is not dead

as mentioned yesterday

give us some time to work out the apl and other things

but trickster seems not much worse relatively seen than it is currently

[sacred cedar]

im really surprised we havent seen another ptr patch yet

[pliant topaz]

its going live in 4 days they dont do patches usually after the 2 week cutoff

more to come in 3 months for 11.1

[vale pine]

is it 3 months till 11.1?

sounds long

[pliant topaz]

like 2.5 months i think?

we'll probably start seeing the intiial patchnotes in like 2-3 weels

[vale pine]

11.1 is iirc assumed 4 month after s1

[pliant topaz]

they said the event lasts 2 full months

and then the patch is after it

so like 2 months and 4-5 days ig

[vale pine]

oh ye

so no new patch this year

[pliant topaz]

this seems like the last major patch

alright time to test the new trickster APL vs in game

[onyx hare]

Did sub rly only get one pass over this PTR cycle?

[pliant topaz]

it got 2

most classes didnt get many passes

hunter and paladin and shaman were one major initial pass

then nothing since the first set

[onyx hare]

Right we had that moment of 1m flag 2m blades

Forgot that bit

[pliant topaz]

and the 3%-6% added to the symbols talent

which unironically is what makes the talent not worthless

welp ptr is down, cant test kekw

[vale pine]

oh nice, i need to look at trickster apl more too

[pliant topaz]

we found like so much gain for it yesterday

its like borderline viable but like ... it does some really weird things that i cnat fix

i touch 1 tiny thing and everythings so connected i lose like 800k dps

[vale lagoon]

oh yeah fixing nimble would be nice

but seeing that they can't even fix sectech

idk

[pliant topaz]

and its like ah yes u told it to sod 2 seconds too late here, so now it never casts blades again

[vale pine]

what did you find?

[pliant topaz]

its in the APL we shared. we found like 5% worth of damage

it went from like 8-10% behind to 3% behind

and thats with DM bug

[vale lagoon]

DM?

danse macabre is bugged too?

[pliant topaz]

deathstaklers mark

[vale lagoon]

OH

[pliant topaz]

or rather darkest night in this case

[vale lagoon]

ehhhh but actually is the dm bug that bad now that we're using evisc for snd lol

u open with an evisc anyway no

[vale pine]

yes, idk what made it behind in the old one
but the new had little optimizations initially, so i assumed there to be more left

[gritty knot]

man does anyone have some info on how to fkn kill that stupid zekvir ?? boss....i am close to going insane actually. Sometimes Brann is dispelling me, sometimes not. sometimes i use my cloak and next he dispells but then he doesnt and i am just fkn dying with 628 ilv

[pliant topaz]

if you play it similar to how it was it really is bad ngl

but now that you have dynamic sods u can be hyper aggressive with dances on coups + empty dsectech + empty coups

also the coup cdr itself was 1.3% kekw

[vale lagoon]

i'd love to hear more about this

are we talking keys or raids

[hollow needle]

I have yet to get him myself, but those helping me stated that you have to hard swap to the spider while it is cocooned. The dmg you do is transferred to the spider and is much easyer to deal with. So essetially, you dps zekvir until the spider spwans, then you dps the spider until dead. Rinse and repeat

[pliant topaz]

its all for ST. havent looked into aoe much

[vale lagoon]

is aoe now just super spam

and send symbols on every dance until ur dry

[gritty knot]

@hollow needle so u just abandon the coocon? but why is that easier

[hollow needle]

No, no, no, the cacoon is prio

so zekvir until the cocoon spawns, then you hard swap to the cocoon until it's dead, then back to zekvir. Rinse and repeat.

[pliant topaz]

no idea

[hollow needle]

I have Brann set as a healer and i ToT him so zekvir is always focusing Brann

[left ledge]

HOW ARE WE FEELING

FELLOW SUB TILITY ROGS

I AM PUMPED FOR THE UPDATE

[vale lagoon]

las vegas just went from 90 degrees to 50 degrees overnight so idk

[hollow needle]

Like Blizzard's redheaded hate child.

[left ledge]

The shadows draw near

Gloomblade will rise soon

[vale lagoon]

LOL

funny thing is

is gloomblade REALLY worse than inev in M+

with DS

[left ledge]

Just wait for the brew gloom spam build being our bis build

[vale lagoon]

becuz i ran gloom a few times and it felt great

i think gloom is one of the few things where all the shadow dmg shit works correctly right

[left ledge]

Yes

[vale lagoon]

LUL

so yeah

lingering darkness + gloom boss dps = big stonks

[left ledge]

They should revert the lingering darkness nerf

[vale lagoon]

what was the nerf

[left ledge]

Or lingering shadows

Whatever the fuck it’s called

They need to stop reusing names

[vale lagoon]

yeah no lmao idc about the base rogue shit

the ds node man

[left ledge]

They nerfed it to one pointer

Used to be 100% increased

Now it’s 50

Used to be big glooming

[wispy pebble]

Coup Dash almost bricked me my key... god i hate it

[left ledge]

Well good news

You won’t be playing it next reset

[wispy pebble]

im not sure im happy about playing ds in keys

[left ledge]

Sorry best you can get is dogshit

[wispy pebble]

because god damg tornado is a shit ability

[left ledge]

Anything better requires a reroll

Swap to sin

I think they get like 12 second ic back or some shit

And 12 sec improved gar

If they run subter

Idk wtf they doing though

[heady dragon]

which is like

allright

what do you want with that lmao

pressing garrote 1-2x is allready enough

that "new" subterfuge is really weird

[snow birch]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility > Critical Strike > Haste

[mystic ether]

Why do the highest logs on Queen play Trickster?

[hazy breach]

Ma still not worth

Its like +15k or something

[steel spindle]

The web phases, and mob phases

[vale pine]

oh, uff

[left ledge]

Yeah I’m memeing mostly but the fact that subterfuge works with their shit before it works with ours is a little nuts

[heady dragon]

im honest

sub is in the "we rather dont want you to play it" stage, like it was in BfA

[left ledge]

Even worse

At least bfa had gameplay

[heady dragon]

ye, bfa sub played quiet nice

just numbers where big oof

[sacred yarrow]

sucks that every question about sub is answered with "dont", though.
Feelsbadman

[left ledge]

I mean yeah that’s sad but eh it’s true

[keen dome]

Won't stop Sub rogues. We just refuse to leave.

[left ledge]

I literally just can’t play sub

I’ve seen sub be bad and I’ve played it during those times

But come next patch it won’t even be fun to play and it’ll suck ass

[pliant topaz]

tbf trickster feels kinda fun to play next patch

[raw violet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[left ledge]

In what way

You’re just playing a worse version of it

[pliant topaz]

nah

its a lot more interesting

because u have multiple sods and sitting on them isnt punishing like it is on live

so u get to play very aggressivly around coup

[vale pine]

kind of, both hero talents have some bad parts

[left ledge]

Yeah but you don’t do damage outside of cds anyways

[vale pine]

but as always

we make it work

[left ledge]

Coup isn’t exactly a satisfying button to press

[vale pine]

as arming mentioned, some gameplay changes and we are back

[pliant topaz]

sure but you do alot of damage in dances. which is what subs supposed to do imo

[left ledge]

Do you

[pliant topaz]

idk, from my testing, it felt really fun

[left ledge]

Is it really a lot of damage in dances

[pliant topaz]

i mean dance is a lot of damage compared to outside of dance

[left ledge]

I liked the super high burst of trickster with dust

[pliant topaz]

its a massive amplifier with everything

but if baseline things do virtually 0 damage, even if dance amps it by as much as it does, its still not a lot

[left ledge]

It felt nice to be able to just demolish health during my cds

16 sec blades no dust trickster though

Now coup is just another DN

Just blast us back to the past devs, I know you’re in here

[pliant topaz]

theyre not though

sephuz is gone

[left ledge]

We repent and would like to go back to pressing gloomblade 50 times a minute

Let me cope

[pliant topaz]

from what ive heard though

sephuz sounded liek an amazing dev

actually working with TCers interested in ideas and feedback and actively partisipating in conversations about the spec

[left ledge]

Yeah that sounds like someone who cares

Can we get one of those

[pliant topaz]

he left the company i thnk

[left ledge]

Poggers

[normal harbor]

Hello everyone 🙂 super nub sub here lol

[left ledge]

Oh boy

You know what, tier is already over anyways

Maybe sub will be good in s2

[pliant topaz]

you havent killed queen yet though

wym its over

[left ledge]

I’m not playing sub for that

That’s for sure

[pliant topaz]

kekw

people say subs better for it though

[left ledge]

Yeah

[pliant topaz]

better timers + mor useful for tombs

[left ledge]

Maybe this week

[hollow needle]

Are you even a Sub player if you're not facing queen as Sub?

[left ledge]

Next week one caustic fart will send sub to the Stone Age

[pliant topaz]

ill say, trickster and deathstalker are closer after 11.0.5 than they are on live

[normal harbor]

well i dont sub in pve. i know its not the worst or greatest. i use sin for pve lol

[pliant topaz]

and both got like a 3.5% buff compared to live

[left ledge]

Yeah I mean that’s nice

But is it worth playing it

Idk

[rocky wolf]

just go outlaw 🙂

[left ledge]

What’s that

[rocky wolf]

idk i hear its played sometimes

something about shooting cracks

[left ledge]

Is that like a diff build

[keen dome]

it's the gun spec

[left ledge]

Oh hunter

[keen dome]

pew pew

[left ledge]

I’m good

Can’t really reroll rn

[pliant topaz]

depends on what you want. itll be closer to sin numerically in terms of pure single target. and it has better burst aoe still for tombs. it also has better defensives since vanish as a defensive is back

and a 1.5 min cd timer which is pretty decent for p3 and p2

[left ledge]

I will have to see what it truly feels like

[onyx hare]

Is vanish as a defensive rly back if we have to vanish for premed before blades?

[left ledge]

We’re not playing premed are we

[pliant topaz]

bro u vanish once for premed on the opener

[left ledge]

Is it even fixed

[pliant topaz]

its back after that

its fixed

and we play it

its very strong

[onyx hare]

You don’t do that for every CD set?

[pliant topaz]

basically cdr and cps are really really strong

[pliant topaz]

no

[left ledge]

Are we still popping blades AFTER our first sectec

[pliant topaz]

yea

[left ledge]

Sick

Love that

[pliant topaz]

its a little more strict

but its not bad

[left ledge]

Can I get a piano on the side too

[pliant topaz]

okay wanna hear the most aids thing though?

[left ledge]

No but yes

[pliant topaz]

pretty sure its better to not macro cb to sectech

and manually CB the 2nd sectech of cd sets now

and the ones outside

[left ledge]

Ok how about I play a brew gloomblade build

And it secretly is the best build

[rocky wolf]

wait i got a new bind

no ER

hmmge

[pliant topaz]

its kinda aids to set that up in sims btu since dust is gone, u get a fixed total number of cbs in a fight. and the 2nd one are more valuable cuz more flag casts

[left ledge]

You didn’t er on sub anyways

[pliant topaz]

so theres that

[keen dome]

I'm curious how much of a damage difference it's gonna be with macro'd v non macro'd

[pliant topaz]

gb is so shit ngl

[left ledge]

0 if you crit normally

Cold blood just anti rng button I fear

[onyx hare]

This sounds kinda lame

[left ledge]

It used to be the shit ngl

Shit was as strong as evis

[keen dome]

Purple backstab...

[pliant topaz]

it was! it was

we would tell people its better to gb over storm -> evis on high lingering stacks during blades

for prio damag

and they were like noooooooooo u dumb

and then we show them the logs and theyre like " HOW COULD THEY DO THIS TO MY SPEC MAN I HATE THIS ASAAA"

lol

[hazy breach]

#subtlety message

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1123022813217968198/image.png?ex=669650bf&is=6694ff3f&hm=5525c05b12fbcffc070da599b5951f9f81037d83c74aac2eeae5018499bef7dd&

10.1 pic

Gloomblade doing more than the evis

[keen dome]

geez

Bring it back

[pliant topaz]

remember finishing lat gcd of dance regardless with 6 second dance? because it was better to not waste the 100% lingering by evising?

good times

[toxic knoll]

I know its not popular opinion but i like deathslaker play style so if its numericaly better i would be ok about it

[vale pine]

it is atm

[jaunty umbra]

Is there a string to sim dracthyr rn

[pliant topaz]

try it out ig. when you look at your simc input theres a "race" part

change that to whatever race u want

[prisma stump]

has anyone had issues getting into keys as sub? im 2500 io and getting declines to 10s back to back ><

[static pewter]

no, thats just lfg for you

even if you are the lebron james of m+ you will still get declined to a +10 weekly no leaver

for the most part that is

[prisma stump]

fantastic

lol

[dense geode]

theres like 2700 players queing for 10s

so theres that

ppl just invited the best ppl available

[static pewter]

thats just not true

[vale pine]

people invite meta classes/specs

[static pewter]

most ppl sit in que waiting for somebody 1000 score above them to sign

[vale pine]

and they invite the highest r.io/item level

[static pewter]

and even then they dont insta invite

[keen dome]

I write a little riddle in my invite message. If they want the answer, they have to invite me.

[dense geode]

whats not true

[static pewter]

the inviting the best ppl available

its, well not untrue

just not what it is

[dense geode]

i dont mean best skill wise

best as in high io high ilvl

[static pewter]

yeah but like

ive been in multiple groups where

the leader is like 2.2k

[unkempt forge]

What talents are being used now on m+?

[static pewter]

and they are not inviting ppl 2.5k+ with 10+ ilvl than him

and thats most groups

[dense geode]

well ofcourse hes the leader

why would you invite a 2.5 if theres a 2700 630 guy

[static pewter]

because there isnt

but they wait for one

thats the thing

[wet echo]

too many ppl comparing themselves to leaders rather than the other ppl applying

[static pewter]

and then when u do get invited to a +10

you are doing free boosting

[wet echo]

pro tip

do your own key

[dense geode]

its the smart thing to do

[wet echo]

pugging other ppl's keys is always a risk

[dense geode]

unfortunately so

[wet echo]

if you do your own key, you can vet ppl on rio properly

[barren plume]

How do you vet people on rio?

Also kinda random but is there a way for me to make it so my right click button doesn’t target anything when clicked

I right click to turn left and right faster but it seems like it retargets a lot for me and I’m hunting for my DM target again

Which brings me to how do I set up a plater option to mark or highlight based on the DN debuff

[warm marlin]

There is an addon to disable it

But it will disable all right click functionality other than turning your screen

[barren plume]

Hmm what else do I do with right click other than turn

[warm marlin]

Well I tried it in df and it prevented clicking the neltharus chains

that alone was enough for me to stop testing

[barren plume]

Oh yea the right clicking on shit to interact

God damnit

You guys all turn with right click and mouse or do you use turn keys and strafe keys.

[lilac stag]

You can keybind interact to something else.

[sullen hare]

Primarily right click mouse

[merry agate]

our dmg profile was rather "flat" back then was it? dance was not as impactful or do i remember it wrong o_o

nvm just checked old logs downtime just wasnt as bad

[cloud rover]

Gloomblade Gaming

[brave escarp]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale lagoon]

is ds better on live?

bcuz i wear there rly is something wrong with BP

[valid ledge]

used to do keys alot like back in legion lower kara pulling whole floors, now im a 627 rogue and i cant time a FUCKING 12 into 11 into 10 into 9 WTF i need a guild fast

[vale lagoon]

imagine pugging

the game has always been, and always will be, unplayable at non-dog levels without steady friends

[valid ledge]

from time to time you gotta pug 1 or 2 ppl and imma dodge that everytime from now on

[vale lagoon]

apparently it's just the MMO way

to make it so that socializing > skill