subtlety

[hazy breach]

For sub i'd rather have tww launch than .5

[leaden prairie]

I mean same lol

[clever delta]

after i start playing assa i feel like game is in easy mode

[hazy breach]

The way i see it theres not a single improvement to the spec coming in .5

[leaden prairie]

Im not happy about removing er and giving litteraly nothing in return, er kir played great

[hazy breach]

Its all just worse, less flexible, less defensives, scuffed gameplay

[lilac stag]

Short of them dialing the tuning button to 11 there’s zero reason to play sub

except to be purple

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw also loses step, for a buggy double grapple that litteraly doesn't worth with the grapple in our hero talent, prolly won't be fixed

[lilac stag]

losing step would piss me off

[leaden prairie]

And I guess that's all they could come up

With

I think the sub changes are litteral troll tho

Putting double vanish in the class tree

Then removing dust one patch later

Is comical

[lilac stag]

the hook change idk is that their button bloat solution?

[leaden prairie]

And I'm not gonna talk about that sod 3 charge thing

It's so uninspired

It's crazy

Chat gpt could come up with more interesting ideas in 5 sec

[hazy breach]

16s blades is the one that makes me the most upset ngl

[leaden prairie]

I guess

[lilac stag]

TFD change is a joke.

16 second blades is cringe

[hazy breach]

TFD is fine, just the number is a bit high

[lilac stag]

The cd window tightness is awful

[hazy breach]

Reducing blades to 16 instead of 20 without changing sectech cdr is just so silly

[lilac stag]

and don’t test any of it so no feedback fingers in ears lakalalala

[haughty mural]

same

that one is nuts

[hazy breach]

Like as deathstalker, if you send sectech as the first gcd (not first finisher, first gcd) in your first dance

You can often get it back in time to hit right as the second dance ends without BL

Note the word often, not always

[near rivet]

does SB work with SecTec clones in 11.0.5?

[hazy breach]

No

No bugs have been fixed besides coup cdr

[leaden prairie]

Same xd

[lilac stag]

lingering does shit all still with Sectech

[hazy breach]

But trickster is not a hero talent anyway now

[leaden prairie]

Wild .5 patch ngl

I would be ashamed if I was one of the rogue dev no cap 💀

[lilac stag]

there’s a reason they don’t show up anymore. 💀

[hazy breach]

24s flag and 16s blades yep

[leaden prairie]

💀

[leaden prairie]

"I read all feedback"

[lilac stag]

And ignore it

[leaden prairie]

Doesn't matter if feedback is ignored cuh

[tribal blade]

i just realized they finally fixed coup cdr and we're not even gonna play trickster anymore

joyous

[keen dome]

lmao, yeah

Still hoping for a sudden bugfix bonanza on the patch..

[haughty mural]

https://tenor.com/view/tonight-doom-gif-19873326

[tribal blade]

that was actually such a big thing about the anniversary patch

now it's completely useless

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/fixed-gif-14953349

hunters get the rework and the second rework additions. Here have 16 second blades. And a sod talent you won’t take.

[near rivet]

now you can freely choose if you want to spend SB uptime to build up flag faster or use it later to do more dam with flag stacked up

[tawdry kiln]

I want something useful to bring in a M+ group

[leaden prairie]

[alpine wraith]

sadly we will take it

[hazy breach]

Shroud speed is underrated

[alpine wraith]

and 2 points

ahahaha

finality is that noodle

or maybe wm inev path too strong

[lilac stag]

Does it make up for the 300-500k difference assa brings in dps?

[sly shore]

Does anyone else notice that if ur sectech cd is below like 3s ur finishers don't reduce it to off cd

[alpine wraith]

nani

[sly shore]

[alpine wraith]

that is a funny one

[lilac stag]

[sly shore]

Can finish and it doesn't reduce it

Or maybe it does and wa is buggin

[lilac stag]

wa bugged I think

[alpine wraith]

likely

[haughty mural]

i'd argue iron wire > speed shroud

[lilac stag]

I’ve never seen an issue getting the reduction back

[alpine wraith]

aoe silence super stronk

although shroud speed has made my indoor keys a bit faster

[hazy breach]

Ofc

[alpine wraith]

when i just tell the people i will use shroud for speed

[hazy breach]

Im not saying its better than iron wire

Im saying its underrated

Not for shroud skips, but just for the speed in general

Like in grim batol

[haughty mural]

yea true

i also like it

[tribal blade]

how to fix trickster: bug fix nimble 40>50%, increase target cap of nimble from 7>10 targets, increase coup damage by 15%

[near rivet]

let nimble amp BP, like it amps BF

[tribal blade]

true they could actually include BP damage into nimble

these things sound crazy, but in order to bridge the gap from sin to sub you need to think crazy

[near rivet]

issue with sub and their spec counterparts in hero trees is

that sub actually use different buttons in aoe and ST

thats why we dont have DN interaction in AoE, why we can hardly use SS, BP as trickster

[haughty mural]

i would appreciate making coup a single hit

[tribal blade]

yep needing to consume DN for sub is output loss in aoe

and trickster you take an incredibly weird loss BPing

[leaden prairie]

You are so cute

[jaunty heath]

Imagine they increase nimble cap and don’t increase blade flurry

God I’d be so down

[near rivet]

you always mulitate, envenom, sinister strike and dispatch regardless of situation

[leaden prairie]

Also fotm told me the same about havoc blades thing

[tribal blade]

outlaw would become insane if they increased the cap on BF

[ripe mural]

why do vers stack out of all the other stats?

[leaden prairie]

[near rivet]

because it sims the best

[leaden prairie]

Famously

[vale pine]

100% on that

[leaden prairie]

Every spec in the game is fine being soft capped, but outlaw

[hazy breach]

Because you already crit a lot with darkest night, rotten and cold blood. You already have tons of mastery due to flagellaton, and you dont really gain that much from haste

[tribal blade]

maybe they should increase the cap by 1-2

[leaden prairie]

The should just soft cap it :om

[vale pine]

i mentioned it earlier, i think the idea of the patch is to qol improve all 3 specs

[leaden prairie]

Ok but all these changes were from tww

[vale pine]

its just to say it with the words of a very wise group of peiple

[leaden prairie]

They failed to finish in time

[vale pine]

*people

[leaden prairie]

Also idk about qol increase when outlaw loses step

For basically nothing

[vale pine]

"das war mal wieder ein schuss in den ofen" - team rocket

[leaden prairie]

Same

[tribal blade]

i think an outlaw was gaslighting me about losing step was a good thing

[alpine wraith]

pvp nerf sorry

unlucky

[tribal blade]

x2 grapple is better he said

[vale pine]

spoiler

they didn't lose it

[leaden prairie]

I think it's fun

[vale pine]

its still not on ptr

[alpine wraith]

instant movement vs buggy krangled movement

[vale pine]

iirc

[leaden prairie]

But it's worse

For sure

[tribal blade]

oh interesting

[leaden prairie]

And we have 2 grapple already

[vale pine]

i can test later

[tribal blade]

is this gonna be a dust thing again

[leaden prairie]

With the hero talent

[alpine wraith]

they already have 2

wont have 3

[leaden prairie]

Also the double grapple doesn't even work anyway

[alpine wraith]

and it also bugs the talent

[tribal blade]

oh

[leaden prairie]

Cause

[tribal blade]

wait what

[alpine wraith]

it gets consumed instantly

[tribal blade]

oh so you're getting fucked too

[leaden prairie]

You don't have a window of grace period like with step

If you double press grapple you send 2

[hard wolf]

some will argue having a arbitrary haste tax is a good thing too

[vale pine]

did ptr change

[tribal blade]

oh that's cursed

[vale pine]

last time i checked

[alpine wraith]

it is a hero talent

[vale pine]

i still had step

[leaden prairie]

And your hero talent fatebound thing that let you grapple again only trigger when you land

[vale pine]

ohh

[leaden prairie]

While you can grapple again instantly

So it's basically impossible to consume the hero talent

[vale pine]

so you get one more step

[leaden prairie]

Rather than the grapple cd

[vale pine]

and 2x grapple?

[leaden prairie]

But that's also irrelevant

Cause we have no cd on grapple

[alpine wraith]

it is bugged to hell end

[tribal blade]

damn i am so out of the loop with outlaw

[vale pine]

ill test later again

[alpine wraith]

outlaw is the premium spec to suicide

[hard wolf]

probably for the best

[alpine wraith]

now that sub is losing sepsis tp

[tribal blade]

maybe i try it again when BtE resets cd on stealth windows 😉

[vale pine]

to mention this

[hard wolf]

thats good qol tho

[vale pine]

this essentially translates to

[hard wolf]

i think thats a really good change

[vale pine]

"there was at least an attempt"

[hard wolf]

people were asking for that since 10.2

[vale pine]

when you tried something

[tribal blade]

i agree, i think that makes outlaw much less cursed for me to play

[vale pine]

that collosally failed

[hard wolf]

ye i mean it negates a few really annoying bugs/missplays

[tribal blade]

i won't get arbitrarily punished for my ms

[leaden prairie]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxY69Dvib2GFDhLDSiCNJeQtonA4gG3xVz?si=sA5oQSEfVCosKJCE example

Of what you can already do on live

So like

Ye another grapple is cool sure xd

Don't need it tho

[tribal blade]

holy hell

this is incredible

[alpine wraith]

rondo

[leaden prairie]

Step is way better

[leaden prairie]

Ye it's cool

But I don't need more grapples

Xd

Step at least let you do other things sometimes

[tribal blade]

yeah that's already the max amount of movement you'd ever need

[alpine wraith]

you will wake up the pvp people

watch out

[leaden prairie]

Grapp is fine

I love grapple tho

I think it's the most op and most fun

Movement ability in the game

[sly shore]

When it works

[tribal blade]

yeah step is actually pretty nice for stuff like when a massive frontal is going out

step mob and are instantly safe

[leaden prairie]

Fun fact

It can only fail in open world

Well it works like 10% of the times in open world

But ye, instanced grapple is actually coded differently

Which I guess is kinda funny

[vale pine]

@leaden prairie where is Thrill Seeking?

i can't find it

[leaden prairie]

What's that

[hazy breach]

Where step used to be

Top right class tree

[vale pine]

its stil step on ptr

[leaden prairie]

Ye

But it's also grapple

Idk they forgor to delete step from it I guess

[vale pine]

but i still get step

[leaden prairie]

Maybe they just actually forget about it

[vale pine]

when i talent it

[leaden prairie]

Ye

[vale pine]

ye

[leaden prairie]

Well it doesn't work fuu

[vale pine]

thats what i mean

[leaden prairie]

What did you expect

It's a rogue thing

[vale pine]

i mean it works

you get step

and step works

[leaden prairie]

You aren't supposed to get step is what I mean lol

[hard wolf]

[alpine wraith]

same as flensing knives

rogue is the gordian knot

until someone comes along and cuts it

[jaunty heath]

I am surprised that’s not fixed

It’s a dps increase

That normally gets fixed

[alpine wraith]

well look at fatal intent

it could get buffed by 500%

and still be a joke

[jaunty heath]

Yeah but the flensing knives gives us damage, can’t have positive bugs on our spec

[lethal breach]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Bugs - Subtlety Rogue

[tribal blade]

not as impactful as coup giving 3 DM stacks, so blizz doesn't care naturally

[hazy breach]

Sims seem to want swift death rather than crit during symbols but otherwise looks good 💀

And any cooking i do to try to sway it away from rotten falls flat

[alpine wraith]

yea finality is just weak

kinda funny with how much evis is from our dmg but it is what it is

and well db is strong but not enough

[alpine wraith]

makes sense tbh sf is not super strong so skipping that one

to get swift it is

[hazy breach]

Well no

You can get both

[alpine wraith]

ah yea Pe

[hazy breach]

Crit is horrendous for this setup

Like 20% worse than haste

Idk seems a bit sus still but cant find much

[alpine wraith]

oh no warning signs arises?

[hazy breach]

No

Neither

Swap pe to Swift

[alpine wraith]

ah as cursed as always

long live sub

[hazy breach]

And then remove imp shuriken for SF

[alpine wraith]

yea this one is the all roller then for full st we take sf

mansub and talent choices

so hard right?

[hazy breach]

Very cursed

[jaunty heath]

Aintnoway

Fucking he’ll

That looks like

My favorite talent build that patch is still gonna be DTB

💀

[alpine wraith]

well assa will still be a bit ahead

[buoyant vessel]

yo guys, one stupid question... currently progressing princess kyveza as sub and from time to time those queensbanes line up ugly... i have to make the decision either i send a quick dance / symbols (cannot style the whole duration) window to line up perfectly with blades or i use it after queensbane, but than i would have to hold blades and stuff for another 20 seconds.

[alpine wraith]

only thing sub gets new patch is ome BIG CRIT

there are some times

for example on some queensbane you have to interrupt dance if you do it like you said but it is ok

[hazy breach]

If you delay more than once youll be losing a cast of your CD set throughout the fight, so typically the play is just to send it and pray

[alpine wraith]

yes

if you get chosen unlucky

[buoyant vessel]

so just send symbols and dance even if its not for the full duration

[jaunty heath]

That is a cursed pfp btw

Holy

[hazy breach]

Either way your damage is gonna get completely screwed if you get targeted

[tawdry kiln]

😭 bruh i zoomed in

[alpine wraith]

what is wrong with a mushroom

[jaunty heath]

Nothing..

I heckin love mushrooms

I’d devour that thing

[tawdry kiln]

where can I see an overall dps from a good sub rogue in M+ to compare mine ?

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[alpine wraith]

depends a lot of comp and dungeon

it can go from 1.1 mil to like almost 2 mil

[tawdry kiln]

😮

[alpine wraith]

for example i did like 8 tirna scythe this week

and did from 1.3 mil to like 1.7 in a good one

[tawdry kiln]

OKK, I did 780k in city of threads with 590 ilvl 0 set part so I wondered how much I can deal with good gear (and skill)

[tribal blade]

numbers for sub are all over the place because it's heavily dependant on key level and how the tank pulls

[vestal escarp]

ayo we cookin cursed shit

rotten

swift death

[tribal blade]

raid build?

[alpine wraith]

next patch thingies

i mean it is what it is

[fair anchor]

Before (mostly) dropping sub in M+ i went to see parses in Warcraftlogs

You see top10 parses in keys, the sub player gets gapped 500-600k by other dps 😆

That did the key with them

[tawdry kiln]

😔

[hazy breach]

It looks worse than it is

Since nobody is playing it

[fair anchor]

Yeah

[hazy breach]

Assa is just too good, no point to play sub really

Unfortunately

[fair anchor]

My aug friend likes to read Warcraft logs cause his damage doesnt really show on details, every time he's surprised seeing that small *

That shows nobody is playing this

[fair anchor]

Yeah i put close to 0 effort into assa rotation and gear and the difference...

[warm depot]

so stealthy blizz forgot to make us playable

[tribal blade]

yup it's pretty much like this

[tawdry kiln]

One day the last will be the first ☝️

[alpine wraith]

well top 10 sub keys are mostly 11s

[tribal blade]

it is literally impossible for sub to compete with any good spec

[alpine wraith]

because we dont get invited to 12

so that does not help

[tribal blade]

i've done 1 12

[merry agate]

Sub was always sleeped on but this tier theres no hope m+

[tribal blade]

and i have not gotten an invite in 2 days

[alpine wraith]

i've done several

but all omegadeplete

and 1 13 that was my key

[tribal blade]

i tried swapping to sin to get invites, but i guess i'm too far behind the curve now to get invites

[alpine wraith]

that ended up being a 10 in the end

[vale pine]

this so much

[fair anchor]

Last few times i applied as sub i've been invited. Then kicked when they realized i wasnt assa

[alpine wraith]

so maybe im a bad judge of inviting people

[vale pine]

its tuning and ease of play

[alpine wraith]

or im the problem

[tribal blade]

timed a 12 mists, and since that key not a single invite

[tribal blade]

nah a lot of pugs have 0 respect for other people's keys

i started thinking either my rio addon was broken or i've been blacklisted by the entire wow community

[gilded ferry]

thats the major thing :/

you can do any content atm with that single spec

[tribal blade]

blizz's tuning recently has been really bad

[merry agate]

Envrnom hitting like a truck compared to our "Finisher based spec" evis is an personal insult to me

[tribal blade]

blizz has some weird relationship with sub where they're deathly afraid of tuning us well

at least it feels like that

[gilded ferry]

i might be wrong and fuu and eleem might give a better answer than me about my conspiracy theory

but is it bad tunning, or just the design?

[tribal blade]

it's both

[gilded ferry]

maybe the intended path is for player to play sin atm, after all the reworks and stuff

[tribal blade]

a big part of why we're not doing well in keys is because of how sub is designed

[gilded ferry]

maybe sub is coming in the future again

[lilac stag]

Confusing fear with caring. They just don’t care at this point.

[gilded ferry]

we do not know

[tribal blade]

because ever since the rework we've been shit at keys

[lilac stag]

it’s like an abusive relationship. Keep saying you will get better. They do fuck all with this spec

[tribal blade]

there are gigantic design flaws that need to be fixed

those things would go further to fixing sub than tuning

but obviously if you turn the tuning knob enough anything can be good

[lilac stag]

and it’s don’t blame the devs cause xyz. Guess what. It’s the spec they’re rolling out and giving zero communication to.

[tribal blade]

yeah the lack of communication is what makes it so much worse

or i guess in a sense we now know they don't care because they told us they don't care by not communicating haha

[lilac stag]

far too long for them to get a pass because hours or deadlines or whatever

Fucking figure it out.

[tribal blade]

yeah it's been too long now

i remember we started this dooming a pretty long time ago

[lilac stag]

but we’re just mean in rogue discord.

[tribal blade]

and everyone tried to stay as positive as possible

[lilac stag]

realz feeling maybe gets hurt

Boohoo

[tribal blade]

every tier it was "dw big sub changes coming soon"

[hazy breach]

Partly design wise, but its mostly just tuning

BP has been horrid ever since

Sub plays like it should have insane burst, and then no damage

But on aoe the burst is kinda mid

And then no damage

[tribal blade]

i think the biggest thing for me is the steep drop off once you can't generate full CPs with 1 storm cast

[lilac stag]

now everything is tuned poorly. From cdr to dmg

[tribal blade]

the cdr issue right now is criminal

it's really bad

and it's gonna get worse i guess

[hazy breach]

With 3x symbols and the rotten its fine

[lilac stag]

[tribal blade]

if only they could move that talent up the tree

[hazy breach]

65% uptime on symbols poggers

[tribal blade]

if more symbols is supposed to fix the spec it should be easier to get 😦

[lilac stag]

Gonna be zero percent uptime on symbols.

Assa doesn’t have it.

[hazy breach]

Turns out finality is still shit

[merry agate]

for Blizzard we are probably just wierd birds of paradise who play a pvp specc in pve

[tribal blade]

i never actually knew why it's shit, is it just a small % increase

[hazy breach]

Ye number is just low

[tribal blade]

damn

the talent is basically +15% to almost all finishers right

[hazy breach]

On rupture and evis ye

[candid mural]

Except the one that actually hits hard

[tribal blade]

yeah it's kind of funny how sectec is completely left out of our entire talent tree

actually most of our talents don't interact with enough of the tree

like WM

PV

inev

imagine if WM and inev interacted with storm

that would be juicy

[merry agate]

Sectec - core specc identity spell that has no interaction except for tier bonusses

[tribal blade]

if they want to fix sub buff sectec by 20%

[hazy breach]

You mean make it work with blades?

[candid mural]

I asked this earlier, but is there any other specc tree that forces you to take 4 utility nodes before the first gate?

[tribal blade]

oh and work with blades

[hazy breach]

Or lingering darkness?

[tribal blade]

i love bugs

[hazy breach]

or velf passive

[jaunty heath]

if they want to fix sub make vanish 1 min and have it have 4 charges

[hazy breach]

Atleast sectech works with supercharger and tier set

[tribal blade]

still can't believe they said "we're giving sub it's core spell back with dance" and then replaced the node with another stolen sub talent

that was just next level

[hazy breach]

Whereas shadowed finisher does not work with supercharger

[jaunty heath]

what do u even do without shadowdust

is it literally just going to be 2 dances with flag and shadowblades

and then u do 2 empty symbols or something inbetween

or 3

one dance probably

[hazy breach]

1 empty symbols

[tribal blade]

trying to fit everything within the new blades is omega cursed i hear

[merry agate]

When sectec visual Update. Gimme that princess slide animation for my clones

[jaunty heath]

just sounds like the most boring shit

[hazy breach]

But thats why we run the triple symbols talent, because we get enough uptime to not have to send naked symbols

[jaunty heath]

at least prog will be done by then so i wont have to worry about it

[hazy breach]

Are you done next week?

[jaunty heath]

yes

[hazy breach]

[tribal blade]

huge

[jaunty heath]

well if they nerf the adds for next reset ill switch to sin anyway

[tribal blade]

i have to say i'm sorry for dooming so hard, i feel bad about being so negative

but i feel like i'm starting to lose my mind

[sly shore]

it's been almost 10 years of this for me dw

That's why I'm sane

[lilac stag]

play havoc

[tribal blade]

i might just full commit sin

[lilac stag]

Be in rogue prison for raid.

[tribal blade]

even though i really don't want to play sin in M+

i'm already playing mostly sin in raid now

[hazy breach]

"We'd rather you didnt play demo sub"

[tribal blade]

my raid team started flaming me for playing sub

[lilac stag]

mine feel sorry for me

[winter harbor]

Yeah I took the sin plunge this week....feels bad.

[tribal blade]

lol mine don't, if i ever slightly complain i get "OHHH ROGUES COMPLAINING"

[sly shore]

I got benched cos I am playing like an absolute fucking dog this tier

[tribal blade]

so i just don't say anything to them

[lilac stag]

Why u bad?

[tribal blade]

/hug

[lilac stag]

What happened?

[winter harbor]

The good news about playing sin is you can fuck up like 300 times. Look down and you're still doing like 3.5 mil in a random pack of like four - five mobs

[sly shore]

I am bad at mechanics

[tribal blade]

i died a bunch of ovinax swirlies today, dw

[sly shore]

dodging is not my forte

and I need to work on that

[tribal blade]

because apparently it'll just eat through cheat when they're stacked heehee

[sly shore]

Just need to get better at decision making

it's totally normal and expected that I got benched

[winter harbor]

When you go to dodge the swirls make sure you're not next to an egg because their collision box is a lot bigger than they look and you end up just strafing to the side of it not actually moving

[sly shore]

not if you forget to mut and have no spatter

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dodgeball-dodge-a-ball-gif-12824344

[sly shore]

I realised I've been playing wow basically non stop

for like 3 years

without breaks

[winter harbor]

Yeah voice to text is being fucky today

[sly shore]

just constantly

[tribal blade]

i was thinking about making a sound alert for not having spatter up

[alpine wraith]

that seems great

[tribal blade]

but it sounds like it would be omega obnoxious

[alpine wraith]

make it a vuvuzela

HOOOOOOOOONk

[vestal escarp]

just press mut randomly at intervals

[winter harbor]

I customized my spatter to make a noise if it's about to fall off and also to desaturate if I don't have rupture on my target

[tribal blade]

maybe i'll do the same thing as my flawless form WA, it plays a sound when form has 1 second left of the buff

[sly shore]

I just make it show at all times if I'm specced into it

and desaturate if it's not up

🙂

[alpine wraith]

not enough for goon brains

[sly shore]

and if I have a target*

[tribal blade]

my spatter WA doesn't show when it's not active

[winter harbor]

Wait no no no mine is it desaturates if it's off and it turns red if I don't have rupture up

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm gonna put a sound on it fuck it

it's worth being annoying to have 100% spatter uptime

[sly shore]

I have colour changing plates so I know when it's not up

[tribal blade]

i need to find a way to track mark easier on nameplates

[sly shore]

I just made it go pink that overrides the rupture/garrote colours

[tribal blade]

has it come to talking about sin in the sub channel

it's come this far

[winter harbor]

Just never switch targets use it as an excuse to be lazy

[sly shore]

all 3 channels are #assassination now

[tribal blade]

haha true

[winter harbor]

Yeah I'm not sure what else they expected after they buffed assassination st.

[wild vine]

Just make it purple or smth

The entire bar

[wind canopy]

There was some WA that makes the border of the nameplate be dashed and pink. I was a fan of it since it didn’t disrupt any of the other scripts/mods I had

[tribal blade]

oh shit nice, this sounds good

[wind canopy]

I can post it when I log on later today or something

[tribal blade]

cool, if not i'm sure i can find it

[fossil gyro]

Whats the website that sims dmg taken from dungeon hits?

[vestal escarp]

im fully frozen on invites for 12s i stared doing weekly 11s as sub

[sly shore]

https://not-even-close.com/

[fossil gyro]

cheers

[soft summit]

My biggest issue with current sub is outside of shadow dance it’s dog shit slow and no damage for too long.

Do these changes do anything to increase the uptime on shadow dance or reduce the downtime where all we are doing is shurikan storm /backstab -> eviscerate or rupture

[fallow nimbus]

No

[brave moth]

Sub now is Ass rogue but slower

[fallow nimbus]

You have even less dances

[brave moth]

and they smh managed to remove the only cool thing about sub

[fallow nimbus]

If they don't up dance cdr (with bugfixes, new er and/or buffing it) then it will be a real experience

[soft summit]

Sorry can you elaborate?

[gilded ferry]

this would be huge for raids tho

[sly shore]

you can put your own numbers into it

[brave moth]

cloak ?

[sly shore]

so it works for raid too as long as you know how much damage it does in raid

[brave moth]

you dont need more 😄

[fallow nimbus]

It's possible we keep using dry sods after cds

[alpine wraith]

no now it is even better

[gilded ferry]

not for me, RL

[alpine wraith]

you use nothing

to get 2 SoD for cds

send noodle sec tech

as f

[quaint orbit]

just got blood of the old god hero track is that any good for sub

[alpine wraith]

it is decent for assa

not that good for sub but you can sim

[merry agate]

Generate 2 charges of dance in 90 seconds without dust 🤔

[hazy breach]

With the current db build you get between 3-3.5 per 90s

[alpine wraith]

yea you can use ONE dance

then have to look at the sky when you overcap

[merry agate]

We want 3 then so checks out

[hazy breach]

Which is why the stupid rotten build seems good, because doubling your symbols uptime allows you to get that last dance

[hazy breach]

No, we want 4

[merry agate]

Yeaaah ofc

CDs 2 - 1 - 1 CDs again 2 and so on

[hazy breach]

And we also struggle to fit 2 sectechs into our 2x dance + blades window as deathstalker

It has to be the literal first gcd and you cant lose any uptime, similar to how triple sectech is now for trickster

[pliant topaz]

How is it even playing the 3 sods

[alpine wraith]

slammin

[hazy breach]

Not far off from what you'd imagine

[pliant topaz]

That sounds horrifying

[vale pine]

it is

the sample sequence looks

not fun

[alpine wraith]

back

stab

[haughty mural]

[hazy breach]

No points to spec that

[haughty mural]

ofc not

[lilac stag]

[pliant topaz]

when I got the first iteration out it would sectech one time per cds becuse it wouldnt be up if you cast it on 2nd finisher

and i tried delaying 2nd danec to get it and it was alot worse

it was just legit better to ignore sectech and just strike / evis during the short blades/transmitter window

[alpine wraith]

yea unless you use sec tech first global in first dance

it krangles

dances

[pliant topaz]

as first gcd it was a gain ig. but it still has problems because theres not enough sectech cdr for the 3rd sod. so either it comes up relaly late or u have to delay it again

regardless its insnaley unfun playstyle

[vestal escarp]

stinky rotten build

[hazy breach]

Rotten doesnt really do anything

Its just +dmg

[vestal escarp]

indeed

[hazy breach]

Its just the spec by itself

Nothing lines up naturally, nothing syncs well

[vestal escarp]

i guess robot picks it because it's worth it since you spec that deep

[hazy breach]

Its like a missmatched jigsaw

[pliant topaz]

like im genuinly impressed by how these "little" changes manage to make the gameplay so much worse

[hazy breach]

Even flag+blades that now line up cooldown wise

[sly shore]

it's almost like there is zero thought behind the fixes

[pliant topaz]

its almost like dust was solving the fucking problems it had

[hazy breach]

Are super desynced in their duration

[sly shore]

and they just remove what people hate

[hazy breach]

24s flag and 16s blades

[pliant topaz]

and removing it is like cutting off someones leg when they say their leg hurts

[sly shore]

and replace it with something chatgpt coulda wrote better

[vale pine]

we go rotten

because we havea lot of symbols casts with 2 more charges

its not because rotten is good

or exciting

[pliant topaz]

this is the analogy i used earlier

us : hi mr devs I'd like to be able to run
devs: theyve seen movies where the guy kicks the horse and the horse starts running fast, kicks us really hard in the sheen
us: ouch wtf my leg hurts, i cant even walk, my legs all fucked up
devs: i see, okay, we'll cutt off your leg then
us: wtf are you doing thats not... dude ... what have you done wheres my leg its empty now
devs: oh its empty? i got you dont worry, heres a cucumber you can put there
us: mad and exhausted and infuriated
devs: we did everything they wanted and theyre still mad, so toxic. we helped them run, when their legs hurt we solved it for them, gave them new replacements fro it and theyre just crying nonstop. i cant, such toxic and immature audience

[vestal escarp]

fine we just play sin

[lilac stag]

You’re still giving them too much credit for putting any thought into trying to make it better

Fucking AI could do better

[vale pine]

haha

[hazy breach]

Its like if assa had their shiv duration reduced to 5 seconds and its cd reduced to 18 seconds, ye you could still use it during kingsbane but it wouldnt sync nicely

[lilac stag]

I’m going to write a strongly worded email to Microsoft.

[vale pine]

and kingsbane 48 secs cd

why 48, because why not

[vestal escarp]

whats silly is why throwing us stuff for 0.5, even if there is a remote chance that there will be an improvement in design in a future iteration why stir things up now

[lilac stag]

There’s no chance mate

[pliant topaz]

nah kingsbane is dynamic cdr based on how many poison procs u get during shiv

[lilac stag]

Put down the

[vale pine]

lol

deathmark

has 5 min cd

but depending on how many aa's crit

it can be reduced somewhere between 1 min 50 and 3 mins over time

[pliant topaz]

lmfao

[vale pine]

hire me

[vestal escarp]

btw this cdr bullshit for sub knda works for pvp

pvp spec is not a meme

[lilac stag]

This shit is actually worse that the insane dance uptime / ss spam

Congrats

[vestal escarp]

hey at least flat sub did some dmg

[lilac stag]

You succeeded in making the worst version of sub look better

[vale pine]

damage isn't the problem

we stay similar in output

[vestal escarp]

not by itself, i know

[vale pine]

most concerns voiced

are rly about desyncing cooldowns

[alpine wraith]

saving this one

[vestal escarp]

cooldownds, their cadence and their management

[vale pine]

and cdr making alignment problematic

[dry plank]

Sub niche is to inspire other classes and specs. Oh we are doing bad but at least better than sub and they inspired. New buffer spec which buffs group by just be in the group. Success aura

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bayley-wwe-ding-dong-gif-26650528

[vale pine]

i think its kind of a problem

because the overall perception becomes negative

for every time gameplay gets worse

and what happens is not others thinking we have it but

[lilac stag]

Just disable the spec

[vale pine]

but that sub rogues are crybabies that arn't happy even if they get updates

throw in

"isn't best spec, so they doom"

done

[lilac stag]

non sub rogues doom harder on sub when it’s in a decent spot

[vale pine]

neverless, i think its better to try to make what we have work

[lilac stag]

I have to play sub? Fml

[vale pine]

maybe there is some interessting concepts

just needs more cooking

[restive venture]

If deathstalker is better rn why are the highest rated players (from murlok.io) all trickster still

only 1 is deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Nobody is playing sub

[restive venture]

thats fair

good point

[hazy breach]

Because assa is significantly better

[woeful egret]

I was looking at murlok io and there are some sub rogues at 2700 io

[vale pine]

deathstalker is also

not fun to play

[lilac stag]

They switched from assa to sub for one boss then switched back

[vale pine]

i tried it, and i prefere trickster over it in m+

[pliant topaz]

nah sin sucks i can only sustain 3M dps on 5 targets without cds

buff assa

[woeful egret]

the shuriken tornado dance feels bad if your tank pulls modest

[vestal escarp]

hey thats not that bad

yeah buff assa

[lilac stag]

Maybe press shiv

[vestal escarp]

bright side: assa good we can play rog

[lilac stag]

That’s not a bright side

That’s a DR bot in raid

[woeful egret]

I was testing on the 5 target dummies and I have to use so much just to do what I do as assa with just normal sustain aoe lol

[lilac stag]

I blame all the dust haters.

[woeful egret]

I sit at like 2m dps for 5 mins, as sub I do that for like 10 seconds

[pliant topaz]

based. im done with sub until 11.1

[vale pine]

i keep playing it

[lilac stag]

How’s havoc?

[pliant topaz]

havocs fun

[vale pine]

can't be worse than bfa

right

[lilac stag]

Wrong

[charred sandal]

So true

[pliant topaz]

but im probably just gonna raid log and progress through ffxiv story until 11.1 tbh

[woeful egret]

i prefer sub in raid for sure though

[pliant topaz]

then we'll see what happens then

[vestal escarp]

xiv

[alpine wraith]

i got skardyn from gb

[vestal escarp]

jesus armin

[pliant topaz]

?

[woeful egret]

ass rogue st rotation feels terrible to play

[alpine wraith]

so now i just do 8 weekly raid log and play sokmething else

[vale pine]

lets say it this way

[pliant topaz]

alreayd level 50

[woeful egret]

I also do delves as sub

[vale pine]

if sub performs bad

they will just aura buff it

and call it a day

[pliant topaz]

unlike people whove played wow for decades i dont have a lot of emotional attachments to the game

[woeful egret]

problem is we will become st gods and get nerfed again

[charred sandal]

There aint no way sub gets to BFA status again

[pliant topaz]

i played it cuz combat felt good and i really liked sub. if i cant play sub i just play a different game

[vale pine]

well 11.0.5 looks like bfa shuriken combo dissaster all over again

dust is the modern version of it

[woeful egret]

sub feels like it works if you get a guardian druid to pull half the dungeon so you can just pump dances, I feel like you really need a group to compensate for you. But then again, ass rogue will dust your dps in the same situation

[alpine wraith]

what works

[vestal escarp]

didnt the zul incident also came with heavy nerfs?

[alpine wraith]

that will only make it worse

other specs do like 5x dmg in aoe

[lilac stag]

@pliant topaz what possible cope could 11.1 have?

[pliant topaz]

dont know, dont really care anymore

[charred sandal]

[vale pine]

yes

[woeful egret]

jaded

[alpine wraith]

we get 2 more charges of sec tech and dance

[vale pine]

basically

[alpine wraith]

and they give up

[vale pine]

subtlety in bfa first raid

had a very strong power

[lilac stag]

And if we’re really repeating combo this spec is dead until 12

[vale pine]

which made strike do more damage

this one was nerfed

[alpine wraith]

three times

[vale pine]

so people already switched to sin on all fights

but zul

[woeful egret]

it was a cool niche to do mad funnel dmg

[vale pine]

people did play sub on zul

because of fight deisgn and shuriken tornado

[alpine wraith]

you also played sub on the super chimaera

[vale pine]

so 50%+ of all logs of subtlety ended up on zul

[alpine wraith]

because of mfd dark shadow burst

but only first weeks until it was nerfed

[vale pine]

shuriken combo was suddenly a hot topic

people dissliked the strategic play

on this fight

they are not allowed to pad on adds

some need to gear/level a sub rogue

[lilac stag]

Can we change the spec channel name to “ignored by blizzard”

[vale pine]

absolutely disguasting

[woeful egret]

I dislike shuriken tornado honestly

[vale pine]

so blizz got their back

and removed shuriken tornado

entirely from the game

and to top it off

also nerfed the shadowstrike power

again

just for good measure

so the result was

people still played sub on zul

[woeful egret]

can't have fun in one specific niche instance I guess

[vestal escarp]

b-but the 35%

[vale pine]

but subtlety was for the reminder of the xpac

not looked at

it had a small playerbase

[lilac stag]

Hey you got your wish. Dust gone.

[vale pine]

but outside of the enthusiasts

it was undertuned

and as such not competing for a spot

in neither m+

nor raid

it is similar to now

just that assasisantion is good in m+

[woeful egret]

it's either ass rogue or stupid pirate

[vale pine]

and managed to get outlaw out of there

so just from what is played

the diversity went down

if thats good or bad

[lilac stag]

enthusiasts... more like euthanized sub.

[vale pine]

🤷‍♀️ i am not a balance team member

from what i hear

people like it

sin palyers do

and if you critique the status quo

you are mad, you are doming

you can't have each spec best all the time

but the fact is

[lilac stag]

playable would be nice

[vale pine]

what is dismissed is

[woeful egret]

very true, playing ass st physically hurts me

[vale pine]

that specs are not competing

currently

how much a spec does a content better matters

and for DF

as much as people state it as one spec completely dominating the field

all 3 specs typically ended up close in output

e.g. season 3

so many got mad at the sin nerfs

[vestal fog]

@woeful egret bro you swole af

[vale pine]

and i think they ended up too much

[woeful egret]

it comes from pressing shadow strike so hard

[vale pine]

but we haven't had a diffrence hard to overcome

[vestal fog]

sheeez

[vale pine]

in tuning

but again, lets see

i think we can still cook

and maybe get the sim to play perfect

to fix some of the issues

maybe there is something to figure out

a new approach

[vestal escarp]

surely 0.5 is not fixing that if i miss 7cps of cdr due to playing a mechanic my cds for the rest of the fight are fucked

[vale pine]

any desync can be solved

by sitting on cooldowns

https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-7914082

now if thats good

thats a diffrent question

[fallow nimbus]

Imagine shuriken throw would enable range autohits like in the past

[vestal escarp]

unfortunately raid fights are not patchwerk or training dummies, if need to burn at x and burn is not ready...

it is what it is

[native zodiac]

do we know yet if our stat prio somewhat changes with the .5 patch coming?

[hazy breach]

Nop

[native zodiac]

as in nope it doesnt change or we dont know yet?

[hazy breach]

No changes

[native zodiac]

[vestal escarp]

saw this on lfg

[rigid pasture]

its a decent key for sub

for specific comps

[woeful egret]

does gloomblade still suck?

[lilac stag]

That’s called a carry

[hazy breach]

Its fine, just not much points to move around

So you dont usually end up speccing it

[woeful egret]

I've been looking at top rogues and I see them going all the way down the left side picking up shrouded in darkness and swift death. This leaves them dropping replicating shadows

I was just curious if the 5 sec cd was worth dropping it, and if dropping replicating shadows for gloomblade was worth testing out

as trickster of course

[hazy breach]

Worth noting that "top subs" in keys are doing like 11s with some 12s

Nobody plays this spec in keys

[woeful egret]

true

[hazy breach]

But no without dist swift death is kinda pointless rn

[weary kite]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[woeful egret]

I just want to play sub without feeling like I'm throwing

[hazy breach]

But idk, literally any sim with the nimble bug enabled says that trickster is horrid and very far behind on both aoe and singletarget (not 2 targets) yet people still play it

[woeful egret]

shadowstalker doesn't feel fun to play for me anyways

as either sub or ass rogue

[void hound]

its a tragedy

i really enjoy trickster

[uneven scarab]

Yeah sub is “fine” guys

We are fine

[vale pine]

because of feedback

trickster feels nicer to play

and it has better burst

[hazy breach]

Ye but its wild that people are like "yep its 10% behind but i like it"

[vale pine]

with 3x dance

[hazy breach]

And then fiend over a 0.3% dps increase from items

[vale pine]

sure

[uneven scarab]

Ds in m+ is still like the most convoluted thing

[rigid pasture]

the 3 people that still play sub in keys still play trickster

and yeah thats like on a 12 key at best

[raw violet]

I mean.... who wants to find the DS mark in a pull in m+... 😄

[winter harbor]

I just open on the dude that I want to mark and use mouseovers

[uneven scarab]

Assa has no problem playing ds it literally feels designed for them

[winter harbor]

Like I've been using that option to make literally everything a mouse over automatically in settings for well over a year... Think maybe the entirety of dragonflight

[raw violet]

Dunno, I'm kind of lazy, so, I find it enough to find the kick, than cheap shot, than kidney, and DS mark on top of that? nope 😄

[winter harbor]

Whenever they implemented it, I don't really remember. I'm old AF and my memory is fading

[rigid pasture]

is the sub mini-rework coming on the anniversary update?

[winter harbor]

Wait people are still cheap shotting in m+?

[hazy breach]

Theyre removing dust in that patch yes

I wouldnt call it a mini-rework

[lilac stag]

Lobotomy

[rigid pasture]

yeah ok the rework

[hazy breach]

No as in its not a rework

[rigid pasture]

i guess if we are still shit after that we might be stuck with a shit spec

[hazy breach]

Its just removing whats holding the spec together

[raw violet]

Do you pug sometime? 😄

[winter harbor]

I think they're just completely dumbing down the spec. I don't really feel like it's a rework nothing's going to be different. It's just going to be easier to play and really boring.

[lilac stag]

It’s not a rework. They are literally taking out the one thing at present that makes the spec playable.

[rigid pasture]

so its a downgrade?

[lilac stag]

ffs

[hazy breach]

Probably slightly higher number, but gameplay wise its either gonna be pretty much like playing current dark brew or 3x symbols charges with spamming backstab

[winter harbor]

We won't really know if it's a uppy or a downie until it's released because I'm sure they're going to adjust the numbers a bit... If nothing's adjusted it seems like it's going to be a straight Nerf because they are reducing the length of both of our cooldowns to make it fit as a 1.5 minute class instead of a 2-minute class baseline. So I'm assuming they're going to up other things but who knows

[hazy breach]

Sure the cd of blades is 90s, but you still end up with a naked symbols inbetween because we dont have enough cdr

[rigid pasture]

they havent mentioned any damage buffs right?

[lilac stag]

have fun with sectech cdr

[hazy breach]

Numerically its fine

[rigid pasture]

i wouldnt mind a 5%

[lilac stag]

[alpine wraith]

yea just from nightmare rotation

to terror rotation

[hazy breach]

Gameplay, defensives and talent diversity is getting worse though imo

So

[lilac stag]

literary comes in swinging with just wanting a 5% buff

[hazy breach]

Im sorry for being so negative, but the more i look into ptr stuff the sadder i get

[uneven scarab]

Sectech cdr is hard cursed now without dust

[hazy breach]

Everything besides new supercharger just seems worse than what we currently have

[uneven scarab]

i am right there with ya

[hazy breach]

Like we cant fit 2 good sectechs in our cooldowns

[rigid pasture]

is every answer you ever give a satire one cause I have literally never seen your input on something in this chat ever....

[winter harbor]

I guess it kind of doesn't matter though because I don't really expect many people to want to actually play this spec after the change unless you want to feel like you're playing a class from cataclysm while everyone else is playing war within.

[hazy breach]

We have to use sectech literal first gcd

And then its up right on time if we dont miss a global

Just like triple dancing for trickster is right now

[lilac stag]

You should post the sample sequence.

[uneven scarab]

Please do

[lilac stag]

First time here?

[dry plank]

The reason it’s a least played spec of course in numbers. If our st would be 2 mil we will have 50% playerbase sure that’s true not a shit design of spec (sarcasm)

[lilac stag]

we need more backstab dmg. Maybe 35% will fix that too.

[merry agate]

We still have a week

Never give up bros

[topaz raptor]

another 5% for black powder please

[merry agate]

Gloomblade baseline

[uneven scarab]

Instead of fixing blades we are going to buff it by 35%

[lilac stag]

50%

[dry plank]

I think 300% into shiv solve sub gameplay issues because why not?

[merry agate]

Tiny shadowy blade - new talent 🤔

[lilac stag]

Reduce dance cd by .5 so we stop trying to get 2 dances in sblades

[uneven scarab]

make dance reset sectech cd

so we can actually press the button during burst

[lilac stag]

Nah. Dance makes the clones actually start dancing. No dmg done.

[uneven scarab]

[alpine wraith]

/dance poge

time to make goremaw do all the things we need

[uneven scarab]

True

[alpine wraith]

give 1 dance charge restet sec tech

[uneven scarab]

Lets GIGA buff goremaw

[alpine wraith]

ez

sub is solbved

[uneven scarab]

im down for that

[alpine wraith]

until next expansion

[candid mural]

yes gigabuff goremaw to make up for what we loose, just for them to remove it because it is "probelmatic"

and now replace "goremaw" with "literally any way we figure out to make sub playable"

[fierce ivy]

give sub garrote and swap shadow dance with kingsbane. Specc fixed

[alpine wraith]

it is bait to replace goremaw with 2more charges of sec tech

[candid mural]

I'd actually prefer that over 2 charges of sod xD

[lilac stag]

Remove cdr from everything with this.

maybe toss in an Evis modifier or two in the spec tree

[uneven scarab]

Should have more finisher mods

Seriously

[jaunty heath]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/382855631503228928/1295440698467815465/HUH.mp4?ex=670ea8aa&is=670d572a&hm=c2deffc24ee3ade7dc0d602a7127bd17ef1ab2fe2426e3a40bceb388d56e9499&

[lucid lily]

Now do it during the charge

[alpine wraith]

yea that one is getting fixed fast there are a lot of funny clips already

like pulling ansurek out of the intermission

[merry agate]

Holy shit

Code red

[haughty mural]

Gutripper

And make finality great again

[lilac stag]

Fuck off rupture dmg

[brave escarp]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[jaunty heath]

my life flashing before my eyes or whatever the saying

or my cheat death

[formal helm]

I mean yeah, it seems so bad rn

surely they'll cook smth up

surely

[lucid lily]

Coup pissed me off so bad when we were progging that fight

[alpine wraith]

just eat the big ass

never goes wrong

or actually if you didnt know

as trickster you can just hit from the front

we make parray go away away

[jaunty heath]

we do?

[formal helm]

ye

[jaunty heath]

oh during faze

[formal helm]

fazed targets can't parry

[jaunty heath]

til

[lucid lily]

Better view from the back

[formal helm]

and you have like 80+% uptime on that shit

[alpine wraith]

i explained it in the ulgrax guide

helps quite a bit on that boss

[formal helm]

ya

keep refreshing wowhead

copin' that there'll be changes to rog on ptr

[jaunty heath]

ill just keep playing sub till next reset

since its good for p2 prog

[alpine wraith]

sub always good just always crit

[formal helm]

I'll just play sub regardless

[alpine wraith]

if you dont crit rngjesus didnt like you anyway

[formal helm]

bc I've been on this cope train since SL

surely it gets better soon

[jaunty heath]

for big queen nerfs today

or moderate

[alpine wraith]

unlikely because next week is the 3% buff to dmg

[formal helm]

doubt

bc of the buff, ya

[alpine wraith]

likely they want to see how it pans out

[formal helm]

3% is a lot tbf

[jaunty heath]

yea

and the 1-2 % u get from upgrading gear

[formal helm]

ye

so basically ~5%

[left ledge]

personally, i think we should just go back to s1/2 DF

and never ask for a rework again

ill take the 2 button rotation

[vale pine]

the only thing people asked

was for more damage in cooldowns

[left ledge]

nah fuck that

just make gloomblade the only button we can press

[vale pine]

i do think reverting

to a flat damage profile

is in general a downgrade

[left ledge]

ever since we became bursty we've kinda been in the shitter

[vale pine]

the peoblem we atm face is, that it seems like there is a lack of time

so details get mist

10.2

devs did hear

"dust bad"

[left ledge]

good in amirdrassil because of amp timings lining up with our cds and we still werent absolute top

[vale pine]

now a year or more later

they just purge it

because

community wants so

what is missing is, that its a damn long time

between the initial feedback and the point now