assassination

[strange python]

gotcha

[ebon notch]

you get hit by 1 then cloak then get hit by the next

[strange python]

ahh yeah that makes sense

thx

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor this pops up at least, its good (Event)

[earnest remnant]

you do ring around your body with cloak on

its only the first sec of cloak that doesent

so unless they fixed that since i progressed the boss

[balmy condor]

You’d think that’s enough and yet every time we do an episode I get about 5 people in DM’s going “YOU GUYS HAVE A PODCAST WHY DIDNT I KNOW THATS SICK”

So it’s clearly not reaching into the community

And idk how to fix that

[echo geyser]

[balmy condor]

I mean you don’t even need to scroll up in the chat too far

There’s one there

I’ve had 3 in my DM’s in the past week alone

Seli’s had 2 I think

[echo geyser]

i have a good idea

but maybe its too intrusive

[loud light]

look if they've got #announcements muted there's no helping them

[balmy condor]

I was heavily thinking about pinging an @ everyone

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor its an easy fix, what do u think about just renaming the spec / or just channels the same day the podcast is happening

[balmy condor]

to what exactly?

[echo geyser]

Assa = Podcast Outlaw = Is Happening Subtlety = tonight at 7pm

or something similar

something u cant miss

[loud light]

rofl

[sharp falcon]

anyone looking to eat a good/bad/good assassinwich

[bleak sky]

tbf I don't think @ everyone is a bad thing for when there's a podcast

[bleak sky]

yes

[balmy condor]

a what now

[echo geyser]

surely ppl read spec channels or maybe if they swap, then u cant miss it

[balmy condor]

the problem with this is then people would have to remember which channel is which

kinda don't like that

[echo geyser]

yeah but its only 1 day

same day

otherwise ppl just have muted announcements

but yeah thats why i said the idea is maybe too intrusive

[balmy condor]

hm

let me rename real quick as a test

and see if it works

[echo geyser]

[PODCAST] [HAPPENING] [TONIGHT]

3 lines or w/e

yeah

[balmy condor]

hm

I don't think this works

tbh

[loud light]

this feels like april fools

[balmy condor]

I'll think about it

[echo geyser]

its something I would see at least if casually browsing ravenholdt

if ppl muted a channel, would they still see a ping?

[balmy condor]

depending on how they muted it

[bleak sky]

nice ram

[echo geyser]

wait what

[bleak sky]

[balmy condor]

[bleak sky]

filtered

[echo geyser]

i did this bruv

`???

[bleak sky]

[balmy condor]

yeah @ everyone is auto-filtered

[echo geyser]

even if ``

lol

[balmy condor]

yes

[echo geyser]

top kek

[balmy condor]

just the combination itself

it's for the spam bots

[echo geyser]

fair enough

@erryone

in announcement

[bleak sky]

ban evading smh

[balmy condor]

the thing about an everyone ping is that we've taken a very hard stance that we only use it for very important things

[echo geyser]

idk how else to get ppl's attention

i see the event at least, but i see how ppl could miss it

ok

what if

u change the pic

[balmy condor]

the last time we pinged everyone was a giggleblush announcement from 2018

[midnight mist]

thats a good idea

[bleak sky]

how do you see the event

[sharp falcon]

GoodBadGood Assassinwich, pls critique our cooking:

good(?): +Kingsbane choice vs TTB

bad: no longer able to get both Kings/TTB + Dragon-Tempered Blades at the same time, because 1pt node added in Deathmark column

good(?): the added node is probably Deeper Strat (Assassin no longer left out from potential 7-combo cap, or can skip class tree node more easily and still get to 6)

[echo geyser]

but ppl dont know what events are

[bleak sky]

some people (me) have discord scrolled down so that doesn't even show up

[echo geyser]

i know cause i was there once

yeah this is why i suggested to rename spec channels

those u would see

something u cant miss

at least if u ever swap channels

but yeah can be annoying, even if its only same day as its happening

[marble hemlock]

ram

bad ram

[echo geyser]

its for a greater reach

ppl need to know

[bleak sky]

imho deeper strats doesn't feel needed so the last point is a head scratcher

[strange python]

Is assa playable ATM in alpha?

Anyone play it

[sharp falcon]

rogue is pretty broken in alpha atm

[strange python]

It seems beyond broken

[sharp falcon]

another week's build or two and it'll be heaps better

[strange python]

Oh like not working broken?

[bleak sky]

and I don't know how to feel about kingsbane vs ttb choice // not being able to access kings+dragon blades would feel sad

[sharp falcon]

generally yes

[strange python]

I have flashbacks to sub being OP I. Shadowlands beta, getting nerfed to the ground, and being shit for launch.

[loud light]

what would be the choice you're really making between TTB and kingsbane? instant damage vs ramping damage over the duration of shiv? worried one will just be numerically better

[slow marsh]

7p CP doesn't really do anything for assassination

Hence why kyrian sin never panned out, to my dismay

[midnight mist]

everything that is new isnt implemented yet, no new interactions, old things can also be a bit bugged

[slow marsh]

deeper strat on sin would be a welcome qol talent that you just so happen to pick up on the way to better stuff, but yeah that my input

[strange python]

Ah i see thank you

[balmy condor]

good: kingsbane is beloved, choice is always good, also feels fitting for a capstone

bad: probably fine depending on balancing, we currently just like dragon-tempered because of lethal dose mostly being insane

good: Deeper strat generally isn't something assassination cares about honestly. In the past the critique has been "it's too slow" because it was in contention with vigor/mfd. Generally with the pacing of assassination, running deeper is usually because of either a huge haste steroid forcing the gameplay to slow down and get more energy spent on mutilate, or finishers are incredibly strong and the 5% bonus it used to have is simply the strongest numerical option. In terms of core design, people generally don't really care for it on sin

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor did they tell u when ur getting alpha acccess?

[bleak sky]

with no interactions on spending extra cp per finisher, I don't see a reason to take deeper strat

[sharp falcon]

for some players, simply the choice between active vs passive is enough to make it worth choosing passive at a cost of small loss

[balmy condor]

wowhead has someone who does the outreach for it, but there is no guarantee that every wowhead writer gets access, nor a guarantee of when

[timid cloud]

When're y'all using your Sigils on Jailer? Logs are giving me mixed signals.

[bleak sky]

I think it depends on your strat and kill time

[strange python]

What did kingsband do?

[echo geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/pepew-twitch-nymn-gif-20756151

[timid cloud]

Idk if I wanna use Sigil/Cache on this, when I have a 278 Phial. :\

[bleak sky]

Releases lethal poison within The Kingslayers and injects it into your target, dealing (81% + 81%) Nature damage instantly and an additional (52.92% of Attack power) Nature damage over 14 sec.

Each time you apply a Lethal Poison to a target affected by Kingsbane, Kingsbane damage increases by 15%.

[midnight mist]

why is this so big ram

[loud light]

for some reason I auto-translated "kingsbane" as "kingsbane effect attached to shiv", but I see you mean a separate ability now

[strange python]

Ty

[slow marsh]

Kingsbane is what sepsis tried to be imo

but kingsbane over dragon tempered any day i think

unless there was a viable amp poison build i guess

[bleak sky]

Though Realz what are we thinking the extra point on the dragon-tempered blades is going to look like?

[sharp falcon]

extra point(?)

[balmy condor]

I mean currently obviously no shot with the state of lethal dose

but yeah

[slow marsh]

ofc

[balmy condor]

I think a lot of people just based on gameplay

[sharp falcon]

lethal dose is OP

[balmy condor]

would like kingsbane more

[slow marsh]

but also kingsbane counts for lethal dose right?

[balmy condor]

it would, but as a cooldown

[slow marsh]

just a less sustain more bursty

ye

[balmy condor]

instead of perm

[strange python]

Kings bane sounds nice with our new “vendetta”

[sharp falcon]

we all know it, I'm still deciding best solution (redesign, soft rework, or nerf?)

[strange python]

Did they add kingsbane??

[slow marsh]

I'm wondering if lethal dose would be better suited closer to the bottom tier

[balmy condor]

easiest would just be to cap it at X% imo

[strange python]

I didn't see any changes :(

[balmy condor]

I have no idea how that'll feel though

[bleak sky]

no longer able to get both Kings/TTB + Dragon-Tempered Blades at the same time, because 1pt node added in Deathmark column

Did I misread the "1pt node added in deathmark column" ?

[sharp falcon]

caps are a useful tool but also sadge. Not out of the question, though

[final star]

Kingsbane is the best ability assassination has ever had cmv

[balmy condor]

that's the current discussion happening in front of you

[loud light]

scroll up a couple minutes (or search realz's posts)

[sharp falcon]

90%+ likely to add kingsbane

[strange python]

You think I can read?

[balmy condor]

I'd hope you can

[echo geyser]

[balmy condor]

would be a weird conversation otherwise

[slow marsh]

What if you just put lethal dose into kingsbane as final two instead of ttb slot? idk

[strange python]

Haven't you had discussions with me where you've learned I can't?

[balmy condor]

yeah okay

checks out

[sharp falcon]

I just can't let you have it at the same time as Dragon-Tempered, for hopefully obviously reasons, it would be the ONLY acceptable thing to do when taking Kingsbane

[balmy condor]

2 point poison bomb

[strange python]

They prob know it would be way to broken

[sharp falcon]

Lethal Dose is equally- or more-so a bleed ability

so it being on the right side is very intentional

[slow marsh]

I think moving zold into the mid tiers could be a fair swap for moving lethal dose lower?

[strange python]

Can I ask a dumb question?

[sharp falcon]

zold is strong tho =x

[balmy condor]

oh no

the "move zold" discussion again

[strange python]

Is it unreasonable to ask that atrophic be moved so it's only one point out of the way instead of 3?

[slow marsh]

oh

my bad

[bleak sky]

because as it stands, we could get both, right

[balmy condor]

me and realz have gone circles about moving the bottom of the left tree

[slow marsh]

K whisp give me tldr on the dead horses

so I can stay away

[bleak sky]

vw moving up to improved poisons; we get both

you mentioned 1 node in deathmark column

[balmy condor]

the dead horses are basically tiny toxic, zold being on the left, and thistle tea existing

[bleak sky]

I'm missing that (?)

[slow marsh]

nice

[strange python]

I’m so excited for assa actually

[strange python]

Shrouded suff not dead yet?

[sharp falcon]

This isn't a dumb question. That said, I didn't want more generic things behind it, because of situations that might not want Atrophic. Still, the discussion around Atrophic is more involved than just its positioning on the tree, to say the least.

[balmy condor]

he said he's considering it

at least the cp

[loud light]

if kingsbane and dragon-tempered need to be mutually exclusive because of the way kingsbane stacks, could that not also be a potential choice node between the two of them?

[balmy condor]

(I put this stuff in the pins for a reason)

[strange python]

So my concern is that putting atrophic (or utility like it) behind lower damage options is that the second any content is on farm, most players will immediately stop using it. If it's only one point out of the way, this changes imo.

[bleak sky]

is that an issue though?

sounds like you made a meaningful choice to give up some damage to help prog a little bit faster

[strange python]

Depends. It could feel really bad if you're in a mediocre raid team that needs that utility and you're perpetually stuck

[bleak sky]

and when it's not a problem anymore, you can opt out of it

[sharp falcon]

Zold is notable more for the execute damage profile than being tied to poisons, and that ("execute") should be a very specific build choice I would prefer not be a staple of all assassin builds all the time. Having a reason to pick it up for certain encounters when you otherwise might not in more generic situations -- that's a good thing

[strange python]

I'm ok with a tradeoff, but three points is a lot

[sharp falcon]

Understandable. Also not off the table to buff it if it's not worth the 3pts

[strange python]

Is it affected by shiv and MP?

[sharp falcon]

Zold?

[slow marsh]

To me it's a matter of is there a reason to have only a 10/20% zold.

[strange python]

Atrop

[slow marsh]

if you're taking zold you're taking zold so seems weird to have 3 points

but that's me

Also to me crimson tempest on what seems to be the poison side of the tree is weird

[balmy condor]

this seems actually less weird to me cause there's a lot of aoe stuff around it

[slow marsh]

Yeah I was right about to say that I get it's around the aoe stuff but still weird to me when there seems to be somewhat defined poison side and bleed side

but def not a big deal either

[strange python]

I'm actually a little more confused by doomblade positioning not being next to maim

[slow marsh]

ttb being a final talent is more important

[sharp falcon]

(re: Q about Atrophic) In blue-sky, who-cares-about-raid-balance-LOL magical fantasy land? Yeah, in that world it works with MA and Shiv. In the real world? I don't know, it's a significant topic with a lot of unanswered questions and internal discussions yet to be had about the ability itself, the goals it should hit if it does exist, and the overall philosophy around raid comps, raid buffs, and the classes (or in this case, maybe just specs) with access to them. It's not a single-person solve but it existing on the tree is generating a lot of community feedback that helps inform those discussions

[strange python]

Side bar. Appreciate you coming here to deal with our (read: my) degeneracy

Most class discords are a fucking mess

[sharp falcon]

DK was a nice place

just people who want to slay and have fun doing it

[final star]

Change slay to stab

[sharp falcon]

Acherus I should say

[final star]

That's rogue

[balmy condor]

reads between the lines
rogue was not a nice place

[slow marsh]

My only real 'dream wish list whatever tthing' would be for sepsis to be 1min cd instead of 1.5, other than that I'm really enjoying what's happening so far

[balmy condor]

[strange python]

I'm split on atrophic. I think it's interesting to have the damage reduction amplified with shiv, but as we all know from the enrage removal, it can feel bad to hold

[final star]

I just want atrophic moved left

Off the tree

To the rogue tree

[sharp falcon]

that's one suggestion

[strange python]

I do want doomblade where blindside is

It seems to make more sense there

[sharp falcon]

having single-spec-only raid utility is sketchy

[grim tangle]

delete blindside

[sharp falcon]

disagree sirstab

it makes sense where it is =p

[strange python]

I've been accused of being dumb, I'm curious why

[sharp falcon]

you don't have to be dumb to have a disagreement with someone

[placid adder]

Pikaboo putting evokers on ice skates right now in duels 😂

[sharp falcon]

There's a reason it is where it is though, it's done with intention, that's all

[strange python]

VV and maim seem to be mut focused, doomblade seems like its natural place would be over there

Fair enough

Is the reason that internal maths shows the Mut Build is giga and you want to make it sacrifice other options? Plz be this.

[final star]

Think it's clearly defined more over reaching as a raid wide utility too, which is why restless crew is relatively okay as its party wide.

[grizzled jay]

or just delete it smile

[sharp falcon]

Doomblade has 2 pieces and I deemed the more 'important' one the bonus bleed, not the fact that it happens to be triggered by Mut

[grizzled jay]

Doomblade is a DoT so it being off LD makes sense

[proper summit]

If atrophic is moved to class tree and other rogue specs get access to shiv to amplify it, it will feel worse tying it to shiv for assassination where it's a dps cd

[final star]

And historically raid wide things have been able to be done by the class a whole and not just one spec in that class

[strange python]

Fair enough.

[final star]

Just don't let shiv amplify it my brother

[grizzled jay]

Roar has flip-flopped a lot has it n ot?

[strange python]

I'm sticking to my conspiracy that the Mut Build is insane and you needed to build meaningful choices into it ')

[final star]

Ya that's why I say historically cos there are a few cases where its not been true ( but its been changed next xpac to be true again +)

[proper summit]

I think it having an amplifiable portion is an interesting design choice that makes you feel like you're doing something more than dh/monk debuff

[grizzled jay]

i think it just changes on that specific class designer's whim

[proper summit]

But shouldn't be tied to dps in my opinion

[grizzled jay]

there's no history

it's just w/e that designer wants in that specific expansion

[strange python]

I have a very serious final question for realz

Does the rogue/dev team love whispyr as much as we do

[final star]

I mean historically all priests have been able to cast health buffs, all druids Mark of the wild, all warriors battle shout etc

[marble hemlock]

its funny that we had the discussion yday about shiv potentially lowering its cd if it successfully soothes a target, and today we get evoker reveal and it has exactly that mechanic already

[grizzled jay]

but not all Warriors could do Commanding at one time. not all Shamans could give Windfury. not all Paladins could give Kings.

[fierce hill]

@sharp falcon how does carnage work on alpha right now if you use garrot from stealth with silence talented? big aoe silence opener inc?

[balmy condor]

carnage doesn't work right now

[strange python]

Holy shit push is typing in the red channel

[fierce hill]

[balmy condor]

from what I saw with JPC and people it's like 80% NYI

[bleak sky]

@slow marsh the bandana looks good on you

[balmy condor]

which is to be expected

[final star]

Yes because they arent raid buffs

[faint harness]

No matter what happens, I do think shiv working on atrophic is too strong anyway. The 7% uptime is too much, should prob not have the interaction.

[final star]

[bleak sky]

first few hours of ALPHA release, why are things not working 100%

where are the sims

[grizzled jay]

[loud light]

I personally like the flexibility of rogue having 3 dps specs and it's always been my biggest gripe with wow when stuff gets added that locks you in place (like certain aspects of artifact weapons/legion legendaries, azerite armor, and cov/soulbinds have) so having important raid utility on a single spec MIGHT feel kind of like that

[sharp falcon]

And the reason it can't/shouldn't swap places with Blindside is 2-fold: 1) Blindside has a significant execute component that I want to stay located near its pair, Zoldyck, and 2) Blindside is more rotation-warping and gameplay-defining than either MaimMangle or Doomblade and should stay as the dead-end and not blocking something someone else might want. There's a reason it flows Generic->Preference in those little off-shoot branches

[strange python]

This all makes sense, ty

[sharp falcon]

yeah alpha rogue is not really playable yet, 1-2 weeks will be wildly better and more ready to test, better to mess with other stuff for now for those playing it

[loud light]

evoker for everyone

[sharp falcon]

still better than some other classes that wont have trees implemented for... a while still =p

[strange python]

Monk?.

[faint harness]

Poor DHs

[loud light]

👍

[bleak sky]

We got the hunt(?) so we're good

[strange python]

Real, if you're with blizzard for 11.0, can you do me one favor??

[sharp falcon]

speculation abound

[bleak sky]

ALLEGEDLY

[strange python]

For once can druids be last to get their talents

[sharp falcon]

no favors, but you can tell me what you want

[slow marsh]

Thanks 🙏

[sharp falcon]

why does that matter, idgi

[strange python]

I just want druids to suffer. One time

[bleak sky]

[sharp falcon]

no promises but i have reason to believe it's at least possible =p

[marble hemlock]

what are peoples thoughts on this? was thinking about smth along those lines yday, basically pushing a passive that improves the 2 side talents ct/exsang in some way

[sharp falcon]

as random a thought as that is

what does this mean, DOUBLE CT

[final star]

Mages and locks haven't got theirs so we really do be smiling ear to ear

[bleak sky]

Crimson tempest and improved crimson tempest?

[marble hemlock]

well it'd be a passive!

[strange python]

What does this picture do

[sharp falcon]

ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE SKY

[marble hemlock]

but i was thinking

[faint harness]

One utility thing for rogue that could have been interesting was to allow crippling/numbing to apply the 5% phys or 5% magic debuff, flexing between the 2. Would make some comp creations a lot easier.

[marble hemlock]

we currently have an aoe passive in its place

thats pathed through improved shiv

while all the other major aoe talents that are related to aoe builders/spenders are more easily accessible

[bleak sky]

you want this?

or something like it

[marble hemlock]

yeah basically

smth along those lines

but maybe smth that further enhances/changes the way these abilities work

like a choice passive that lets you customize those significant abilities

[bleak sky]

that breaks the symmetry

[final star]

Yo did u go to art school, wild photoshop tecj

[marble hemlock]

you can do the same

on the other side

with exsang

[bleak sky]

exsang + doom?

doom + exsang I'd rather say

[strange python]

Doomsang

[chilly marsh]

about DS i dont think its really good for sin i think this extra point could a extra point in poison bomb to make it less random and more reliable maybe.

[marble hemlock]

just a weird thought i had last night while being sleep deprived, dont @ me

[velvet ridge]

I don't want to go through exsang go get doom

[bleak sky]

yes, I'm artistic

[strange python]

Is our 10.0 tier set an exsang buff?

:)

[balmy condor]

no more exsang tiers

ty

[timid cloud]

^

[strange python]

:(

[timid cloud]

Let it die, CT too.

[marble hemlock]

but what if you would have a passive that would change how exsang works whispyr

[timid cloud]

Hot take.

[final star]

Please, please PLEASE nothing ever like ANY of the SOFO rogue tier sets again

[strange python]

I would actually like to see CT rebalanced so it's never the optimal pick on single target.

[balmy condor]

I've said many times, if exsang didn't have all the snapshot baggage and unintuitive gameplay attached, I would not care

[velvet ridge]

What if exsang just doubled all your bleeds on the target

[strange python]

Deathmark?

[balmy condor]

current tier set makes it very apparent how confusing snapshotting effects can be even for the experienced

[marble hemlock]

what if exsanguinate combined all your currently active bleeds into one big one, and then you would be able to re-apply the other ones to basically have "double" the damage, same as current exsang?

[sharp falcon]

2nd bomb point was brought up as well. It's not crazy. If not that, I wanted something that could buff Envenom, and not leaving Assassin out of the two-Deeper Strat option felt like it could fit. If it really does fall flat for Assassin, I buy it, 2nd bomb point or something ELSE that aims at Envenom would be the alternative

[balmy condor]

buffing envenom

I feel seli drooling

[marble hemlock]

just change exsang to vein ripper

imagine

[balmy condor]

I'd be okay with vein ripper

[marble hemlock]

a world

where you carnage everything

with dance amp

and then you LET IT RIP

[strange python]

I'd love to see a envenom talent compete with CT, maybe even a choice node, that made CT less appealing on single target.

[timid cloud]

[strange python]

Something about CT being the default on single targets feels wrong to me

[chilly marsh]

about tier sets in curious about one thing realz. do you make the talents already knowing what tier bonuses 10.0/ 10.1/10.2 is will be ? like cant make this talent because it will be too good in tier X or it is not related at all?

[strange python]

Based on how many changes tier sets go through, I've gotta imagine it's the other way around

[marble hemlock]

i honestly think the current doomblade bonus would fit pretty nicely with the bleed synergies and the ability to apply more than 2 bleeds already

[chilly marsh]

sounds nice, we talked a little about PB making enemies walking inside it take dmg as a dot before. this dot could buff evenenon dmg on the target by X. with this extra point

[sharp falcon]

I have a rough understanding of what's in DF launch 10.0, and no idea what the future holds beyond that. It's really better if we make the talents roughly what we want them to be unto themselves, and have other things play off of them and bend as needed, not the other way around. Anything far-future is concept stage at earliest

[velvet ridge]

Envenom now thins the blood, increasing bleed damage for 6 secs.

[whole mason]

Hi Realz, for Vicious Venoms, is it changing the damage type before damage dealt or only change 50% dealt damage to nature type?

[grizzled jay]

this thing seems insane

[sharp falcon]

intending to change this from a conversion to very clearly added extra damage as Nature, with numbers that are much smaller than 25/50 because that would be ridiculous

[grizzled jay]

for the poison build

[whole mason]

Ok, sounds reasonable.

[faint harness]

You assume passives would work on trinkets, bold

[grizzled jay]

?

20% attack speed

[faint harness]

Thought you meant cus it does nature dmg

Nvm then

[grizzled jay]

oh no lol

just raw AS is really good for Sin

[marble hemlock]

Here's a bit of a loaded question: Are there any plans/do you happen to know already what will happen to the current Assassination Aura-spell benefits? Obviously there's the whopping +51% aura buff, but there's also a few other benefits linked to it like the 20 extra max energy or the 30second MfD cooldown reduction. Will those remain?

[velvet ridge]

Maybe talents to make snd more interesting? Your blades are more serrated, causing your bleeds to deal increased damage

Cause currently, I don't like snd fantasy

[final star]

This trinket on sub with shadow techniques will straight fuck

[sharp falcon]

I'll have to get back to you on the secondary bonuses... but any damage aura buffs from spec tuning over the course of an expansion gets baked into the core spells they affect and then the aura passive gets reset back to 0

[marble hemlock]

There's also a few other passives that are missing from the preview, like Fleet Footed (I assume it's gone) and Detection (I hope it remains a spell that you can learn via the Legion Class Hall book).

[faint harness]

Detection a must have

[marble hemlock]

Yes.

[sharp falcon]

Fleet Footed is in the class tree

[grizzled jay]

its really good for Sin too. more poison procs is always epic.

[marble hemlock]

I'll cancel my pre-order if Detection is gone

[sharp falcon]

I'll double-check on Detection

[marble hemlock]

Lovely.

I know it's an utterly useless spell, but if you take away our swirly ball, there will be a riot

https://tenor.com/view/its-riot-time-fat-neil-community-riot-gif-11713239

[balmy condor]

detection has to stay for some of the older content and easter eggs that aren't accessible wihout it

me thinks

[marble hemlock]

True

You can't do the legendary dagger quest without it, can you?

[balmy condor]

from cata?

[marble hemlock]

ye

[balmy condor]

not sure, I think you can

but detection is definitely the intended way

[sharp falcon]

Detection looks like a legacy thing, it's not part of current rogue level-learned kit or anything, is it quest-learned through some source?

I'm genuinely not familiar, blasphemy I know

[balmy condor]

it's a quest

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, you learn it from a book in the Legion class hall

[sharp falcon]

No reason it should stop working

[ruby oyster]

wasnt it a glyph?

[sharp falcon]

once upon a time, perhaps

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jb8uD/62a84d7e76.png

[sharp falcon]

the visual attached to it is named "Glyph of Detection" but the spell itself no longer bears that name (and is just, "Detection")

[marble hemlock]

It's gone through some changes over the years, reaching as far back as when we could actively disarm hunter traps in pvp. Those were the days.

[grizzled jay]

and the traps in strat and naxx lol

and ICC

[marble hemlock]

BWL

[faint harness]

It has usage in pve once every 2 years, so it is kinda cool

[marble hemlock]

It could proc concordance and echoing void

[slow needle]

I remember trekking to Ravenholdt and using it to disarm a trap in the tunnel as part of a quest.

[whole mason]

It seems the last three rows are a bit bloated. I mean if we can have some 1-2-1 path leading to final rows like other specs, then we may have more option to the optional dead-end branches. Otherwise, it may cause many to just focusing on two end-row talent by two 1-3-1 paths?

[grizzled jay]

the whole point is you can only at max get two end-rows

or 1 end-row and 2 off-branches

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, I think that's by design. It's good imo, if you could just pick all 3 end-points, it would take away a lot of customization and niche-choice

[proper summit]

Rebound it for that boss in VoW timewalking

[marble hemlock]

you also need it for https://www.wowhead.com/item=94154/survivors-bag-of-coins

[whole mason]

But if we looking at the current tree, there are only two 8th row branches. The competition is like a ten-row VS a 8th row branch talent or some points at 9th row VS 8th branch

[marble hemlock]

One of the most fun items in the game, honestly

and a great pop culture refrence to boot

[whole mason]

I'm not saying picking three end points. making 8th row branch talent competing against ending points sounds terrible, dont you think? If it is 1-2-1 path from 8th row to 10th row, we may have one or two points left to invest either branches at 8th or somewhere above, and it will never let you get more than two ending points.

[marble hemlock]

Realz posted about it earlier, but the last talent isn't necessarily supposed to the be strongest within its path

Now, keep in mind that this was talking about dead-ends, and may not necessarily apply to the 10th tier, but personally I think it's still a good thing to have in this way. Whether that design philosophy still applies to the end-points in the 10th tier, or only to dead-ends, I cannot say.
http://puu.sh/Jb8BY/4a47835578.png

[strange python]

What exactly does "616" parses mean:

[whole mason]

how about a design of merging? like blindside and VR both leading to zoldyck but choosing from 1-1-3-1 or 1-3-1?

[marble hemlock]

But i.e. Zoldyck will not be picked in a majority of builds. But for those bosses where it might make a meaningful difference, it is still a very powerful choice. Whether you think that's good or bad really comes down to personal preference I think

[marble hemlock]

that there are 616 people who have killed the boss/logged it

[bleak sky]

public logs right (?)

[marble hemlock]

and within those 616 parses, you rank at the 52nd percentile

yes

[strange python]

That's what i thought, thanks

just sounds low

[marble hemlock]

i think having a tight talentpoint economy is better as it creates more meaningful choices. if you could reach all the talents youd wanted and still have leftovers, the trees would quickly lose purpose and we'd be back to square one

[whole mason]

I totally understand this logic, however, my thinking would be if one main path becomes rather situational, doesn't it go against as the purpose for a main path?

[marble hemlock]

youd just pick all the good stuff and then whatever else you feel might be useful. having to choose between multiple different dps upgrades is gonna lead to more build diversity (within reason ofc)

[marble hemlock]

whats the alternative? three paths that are all highly useful? how do you accomplish that, tune it well, while maintaining a certain level of flexibility and "niche use" across the tree. youd have to streamline talent benefits to the point where all paths would feel very same~y, basically the same car three times only in a different coat of paint

in an ideal world youd have a builder, a finisher, a poison and a bleed tree, and could combine any of them and theyd all do the same dps and you could really choose the one you like most. but we've got this game so figured out that advanced players like ourselves go for the tiniest theoretical dps gains anyway

id rather have meaningful flavor/niche choice and a solid "go-to" raid or m+ tree, than having all paths be basically very samey and similarly useful in the same environment

theres also a bit of a non-gameplay related reason behind it i think, i.e. when we look back at legion we had a fairly well defined identity within the spec, where most of our singletarget damage came from poisons, while most of our aoe damage came from bleeds (at least towards the end of legion). PK/bomb kinda ruined that notion, but i always liked that general feel to the spec

[whole mason]

Not highly useful, but possibly highly desirable if preferred. like if you want to play around dance or generators or finishers, and have situational good ones at somewhere you may pick for that matching scenario. for middle line and right line it is clear 3points in env/poison or 3points in rupture, totally theme preference driving. Now the zoldyck at the left, which itself is not a style prefer related but situational one.

[marble hemlock]

but we want those situational talents, dont we? where else woudl you put it? if theyre too far up in the tree, theyre not a tradeoff, theyre just something you pick up along the way

[whole mason]

then put situational talents at branch, just like blindside

[marble hemlock]

the 8th/9th/10th tier are also branches. they just happen to no longer be diverging into 2 directions

so its just a single branch

every path has a different point where the "core" ends. i.e. the right side in assa kinda ends with VW. everything you pick after, is situational.

[whole mason]

if 1-3-1 should be the design and we're no longer bargain about it. Now the point would be zoldyck that is generally good dps gain but less theme related but more situational fitting.

[marble hemlock]

keep in mind that we're basically moving from having to balance 36 difference specs, to having to balance 60-100 different paths, and they all kinda need to be somewhat valid

i think youre too hung up on the 1-3-1 stuff. other classes may have a 1-2-1, but they have more points that they need to allocate to get there?

[whole mason]

Not so true, you need to spend at least 20 points before reaching last 3 rows

[marble hemlock]

but that requirement is easily fulfilled

especially on our tree

[whole mason]

if you take this into consideration, you realise only 10 points for them and yes easily 2 ending points and one branch

for other 1-2-1 spec tree

[marble hemlock]

other spec treest dont just have 3 endpoints. they have more. they have the same issue

http://puu.sh/Jb8J2/0fe3c1e793.jpg

they have it worse, actually

just looking at SP here

they cant even get 2 endpoints unless theyre neighboring ones

cause it requires 6 points each

[whole mason]

yes, then it is 10row vs 10row, that's more in the concept against 8th branch vs 10th ending point

[marble hemlock]

im confused by what you mean with 10row vs 10row or 8th bransh vs 10th

?

[soft isle]

I think of it as you have 10 points below the 20 gate. Priest uses 6 point to get the idols as a lock to one idol or another. With 1-3-1 in sin i see that as saying im allowed to take 2 end points if i desire

[marble hemlock]

ye

we can pick any combination of endpoints. most other classes can not. they have to stick to left/middle/right side path, as they cannot get endpoints in both

(with some exceptions, ofc)

but i dont think theres a single build out there can pick 3 endpoints

for any spec

those classes also have to make choices between 8th/9th/10th row though. they also have to give up 8th row talents in order to access certain endpoints. so im really confused by what youre trying to argue

[whole mason]

in sin, first we're probably not getting something as strong as idol in the ending row, maybe the DB is. but they are choosing either getting one strong or limited option or other two talents also in row ten with similar strength, I suppose. For sin, we either choose 2 ending row talents or sacrifice a 10th row to get only one at branch. Of course, other specs also can sacrifice the 10th row point for something above, but it is not forced to compare a 10th with an 8th.

[marble hemlock]

thats not how any of the treest work

lets take balance as an example

http://puu.sh/Jb8Mr/08a7fe30b9.jpg

yes, you can pick 2 endpoints with fewer talentpoints

but you still cannot select another 8th row on top

because you do not have the pathing unlocked for those

due to the talentpoint economy

[soft isle]

Oh lament are you trying to say that the left row should either end with more execute to be a “execute branch” or if we dont want it to be an execute branch move zold out to under blindside and replace it with something?

[marble hemlock]

(this is just some random shit i picked to highlight the issue)

even if 1-2-1 was a thing, wed still be unable to put those 2 points into another 8th row talent. wed have to put it into the prerequisites leading up to it, and before we get to that 8th row, we run out of points again

[whole mason]

I think execute related maybe need to be put into branch, just like blindside and zoldyck.

[marble hemlock]

but they are in the a branch?

theyre both in the left side?

[whole mason]

zoldyck is in the main path

not branch

we're not talking about the general meaning of branch here

[marble hemlock]

again, thats not how the tree works. its not like every branch off of the main path has to have some special niche use, while the "center" of it is an all-around thing

[whole mason]

situational shining talent goes into situational place for pick up, that's what i think

[marble hemlock]

theres aoe talents all over teh place on different branches too

scent of blood is situational. so is carnage.

[grizzled jay]

Blindside is not meant to "link" to Zoldyck

[whole mason]

i didn't say anything about link

please dont drag far

[grizzled jay]

Blindside plays more into the Ambush/Dance style than Zoldyck.

[marble hemlock]

the only "kinda must have" one atm is double poisons, and that is largely due to lethal dose being super broken

[soft isle]

I’m defining beanch as something that doesn’t link to a “capstone”. Ah second epiphany: we have to full commit to get 2 capstones instead of 1-2-1 would prevent us from grabbing a 3rd cap but give us a spare point for branch stuff

[marble hemlock]

we have 2 execute talents, both are on the left side and within a few points of each other. why would you want to move zoldyck away from there? whats the actual goal, other than some base idea of "well they need to belong to the same branch"

[marble hemlock]

but there are no branches in 10th/9th/8th tier anyway, and we branch out in order to meet the 20 point requirement already?

[gloomy ridge]

are there any toys that rogues can put down to shadowstep to?

[marble hemlock]

not anymore, no

[soft isle]

To clarify i’m just trying to figure out what lament’s initial issue was.

[marble hemlock]

like, were obviously entering semantics and subjective terms here, but to me, both trees have 3 clearly defined paths. you enter those at tier 3 in the class tree, and at tier 6 in the spec tree

[marble hemlock]

same

[grizzled jay]

I think Lament thought if it was 1-2-1 we'd be able to take two endcaps AND get all of: Doomblade, Blindside, Exsang.

But that'd be busted

[marble hemlock]

you mean sepsis

but yeah

http://puu.sh/Jb8Q0/9b9d89aeb3.jpg

[soft isle]

Blindside and sepsis dip below the 20gate so count against the 10 under

[marble hemlock]

those two are both "left path" due to the 1-3-1 ruling, you can choose to go 1-3 and pick blindside, or go 1-3-1+1 and pick blindside and ttb, or just go 1-3-1without blindside and explore another capstone

technically thats 5 capstones

you can pick up to 3, as long as 2 of those 3 are in t8, or 2 t10 capstones

id argue rn, blindside is probably more powerful than ttb, for example

so youd go 1-3+1, and then another 1-3-1 somewhere else (or another 1-3+1 to pick up stepsis)

[soft isle]

So you can’t take 2 caps and blindside or sep. personally i’m fine with that tho

[marble hemlock]

ye

because ALL the capstones are situational (with the exception of double poison atm)

not just the t10 ones or t8 ones

blindside isnt any more or less situational in t8, than carnage is in t10

[whole mason]

1. the left side theme changes with zoldyck, it looks like many things related to generators plus an EP but to the end part it becomes execute; 2. zoldyck is generally shining in situational scenarios, even it is a general dps gain, which is much better not on main path leading to somewhere interesting (maybe not TTB, but KB?); 3. 1-3-1 is fine, but the option for not choosing two 1-3-1 should also be balanced considering talent row and power, if it is already considered it should be fine. but if lets say to choose between sepsis and DTB? or between KB and blindside?

[marble hemlock]

1. i agree, zoldyck seems a bit misplaced. but just because zoldyck is there, doesnt make it an execute tree all of a sudden. venomrush and TTB both exist in that path as well, and neither have any execute-like properties
2. carnage and scent of blood, the opposing talents, are also very situational. i dont get the issue
3. i dont understand what you're trying to say, sorry. the option for not choosing 2xT10 capstones are balanced and offset already. you can either pick another t8 "capstone" like blindside/sepsis, or just pick up other points at any point in the tree that you think are a better point-for-point value

[whole mason]

Just like Realz's comments about shadow mist in sub, it is ok and the precondition talents are strong, but it also needs something to stand at 10th row. if this should be true, then it should also go here in sin, if we really need to think about giving up one 10th for an 8th.

[marble hemlock]

what we currently envision to be the "best" singletarget build only picks up one 1-3-1 path, for example, because neither of the other ones look good enough. is that a problem? is that a bad thing? isnt that just more customization options?

the issue youre pointing to is purely tuning based, as ttb is obviously not worth picking up. but should the goal be to force everybody into 2x 1-3-1 picks, or should we have situational talents put into those places to allow us more freedom to pick what we want, not what sims tell us we need?

once you reach 20 points, you shouldnt feel compelled or forced to put all the remainign 10 points into t8/9/10

i think thatd be bland as fuck and boring

by having situational talents there, you allow people to pick more talents from the lower tiers, that they had to skip at first due to the point economy being so tight

and those lower tier talents are really damn good too

[whole mason]

I don't think a tree not attractive enough for players to choose downwards is a good idea.

the comments easily go as no good at the bottom.

[marble hemlock]

i mean, theyre pretty damn attractive to me

[whole mason]

yea, then we're choosing downwards, right? then that's where the problem is

[marble hemlock]

carnage? amazing fucking talent. double posions? yes please. execute whenever i want it? gimme

[whole mason]

so your argument about not necessary to choose downwards is not valid.

[shrewd night]

Im so confused about the initial issue, when reading this talk

[marble hemlock]

same

[grizzled jay]

i still have actualy

[echo geyser]

hello seli great work today

[grizzled jay]

zero

clue what lament is saying

ngl

[echo geyser]

[marble hemlock]

not necessarily?

i literally just said that the go-to singletarget tree doesnt pick more than 1 capstone?

so clearly theres other alternatives to it

[grizzled jay]

is the issue that the last talent on left and right are not "appealing"? cause that's the point. they are meant to be niche not generalist.

[marble hemlock]

ye

i see it like that as well. to me the middle path is basically a go-to cause its good everywhere, left/right side are flavor and/or situational picks

[grizzled jay]

right side was clearly made for M+

[marble hemlock]

not even

its just scent+carnage

most of the "m+" stuff is left side

with EP/katar/ct

[grizzled jay]

well those two talents i mean specifically

with carnage being a 1.5m cd, that was designed with M+ in mind. every other pack.

clearly not designed for raid

[storm onyx]

The tree brings elasticity and customization if preferred, also we have points that we want in down end for sure. Why would it be better to 'Cement' a path and make it so rigit that we dont want anything else. and lose versitility?

[soft isle]

Blindside is a capstone. With that approach you could nab blindside zold and sep + the cap under zold and thats 2 caps

[marble hemlock]

theres many combinations of allocating 10points within t8/9/10 only that lets you reach certain talents at max value

you can get 2x3 pointers and 3 capstones(2xt8, 1xt10)

you can get 2 t10 captones

[grizzled jay]

so here's the tree with two end-caps. if it was 1-2-1 and we "saved" two points the only really relevant things we would get to choose:

Blindside. CT + Flying Daggers. Katar. Exsang + Doomblade. Atrophic + Stealth Poisons (since VW is moving up).

so like... yeah, i get "having" those would be nice, but then we'd be too strong.

we'd have way too many passives

[marble hemlock]

basically: by having strong situational choices in t8/9/10, you will have to commit to getting them by entering a full path.

if those choices were on the side in rbanches in t2-7, and instead you would have very powerful capstones and main-paths, then you would lack the talent points to take those situational choices anyway unless those werent 1-3-1 anymore.

so basically what youre asking is to have those powerful paths, reduce the talent points needed to get them, and have good situational branches. youre basically just asking to become overpowered. thats not how good game design or tuning should work.

because you cannot have powerful paths AND situational branches and somehow be able to pick all of them. theres not enough points for that.

conversely, having powerful situational stuff in t8/9/10 allows you to skip those and actually explore the branches in t2-7. thats flexibility.

[whole mason]

think about an 8th row blindside and a 10th row KB, if we are currently pinging DTB for sure for ST. One would argue we can have blindside and sepsis and 1zoldyck, this may sim fine and good or even the best, we it also means we need to invest the middle line for DTB and left for blindside and the right for sepsis, which may exceed our points allowance. Then we have to go back and think maybe just left and middle, then the problem becomes to the end, zoldyck plus TTB 4points for something else above. Zoldyck is generally good, but TTB is not, we may easily reassign the point from TTB to something else, but if it were something else strong enough at TTB's place, blindside would be a option limited to its row (we cannot imagine something above easily accessible and also very powerful) to compete against the new talent at TTB's place.

[marble hemlock]

One would argue we can have blindside and sepsis and 1zoldyck, this may sim fine and good or even the best, we it also means we need to invest the middle line for DTB and left for blindside and the right for sepsis, which may exceed our points allowance.

[grizzled jay]

bro my brain

[marble hemlock]

youre literally saying you want this, but you cannot get it

[grizzled jay]

what are you even SAYING

[marble hemlock]

so if you cannot get it

why do you even think about it

[grizzled jay]

"if we could take all the best talents we'd do really good damage"

this dude figured it out

[whole mason]

i'm not thinking about it. I said one would argue

[marble hemlock]

no one would argue that

cause arguing impossible things is crazy

[whole mason]

I said it may exceed.

[marble hemlock]

well, it does

we already know that

[whole mason]

continue reading?

[grizzled jay]

okay i actually finally understand what he is saying:

he is saying that the strength of the left and right are too low to make it worth to ever take them vs. going and getting all the side branches (in the ST build).

which is fine, but we won't know til sims anyways. regardless there will be one "best" build.

[marble hemlock]

well duh, its alpha and 4months until release

we already know that tuning will change things drastically

so ive just spent an hour arguing over "ttb sucks", which is something weve all agreed on the second we saw it there?

to me it just feels like im trying to argue from a PoV that is within the scope of the limitations of the current tree, while lament is trying to change those limitations to fit his vision

[grizzled jay]

so he is saying if it was 1-2-1 instead, we could "forego" TTB since it is "bad" and also save a talent on Zoldyck, thereby having 2 extra points and a 3rd point from the other leg begin 1-2-1, so we'd have 3 extra talent points which would be more powerful than just TTB (grabbing, say, Doomblade + MM + Blindside).

but that's the point, three real talents are clearly more powerful than one. and is why the system limits us to not be able for those two to even be "comparable" situations.

[whole mason]

TTB sucks, plus zoldyck situational, which makes diversity maybe. but if it is not TTB, then maybe blindside will never be chosen.

[grizzled jay]

Blindside has already been slotted into the Ambush build

[marble hemlock]

thats not how talent trees work man, im saying it for like the 5th time. you cannot look at individual talents in a vaccuum. you have to look at the tree as a whole. yes, blindside might be worth taking if its just one point. but if your other priorities have led you into a situation where getting blindside would cost 2 or 3 or 4 points, it might no longer be worth it.

that is the entire point of talent trees, instead of having the current "select one of 3 you want" system.

yes, carnage is really really good. but if scent of blood is shit, is carnage worth 4 points? maybe

maybe scent is really good and carnage is shit. is carnage worth 1point? maybe

[grizzled jay]

yeah that's why Venom Rush is suddenly pickable

[marble hemlock]

if 1 talent is worth 50% dps and the 3 points leading up to it are 10%, then you gain 20% per point.

[grizzled jay]

VR when it competes with Alacrity is really fucking bad

VR when its a standalone 1 pt? actually worth looking at.

here's the Ambush build that doesn't take TTB @whole mason that I have been working on

[marble hemlock]

yeah sure, id like to go around the tree and pick all the best talents. but thats the entire point of the tree, is to make a decision that does not just include "i want all these cool things" but having to find a path and a way to get all of these efficiently and while pathing through other talents that synergize or also have high value

[wide bolt]

!cache

[prisma monolith]

Cache of Acquired Treasures usage:
Axe is always the strongest weapon.
Note: The Weapon rotates every 12 seconds in the order Sword -> Axe -> Wand

[whole mason]

The point is however, for many talents at their rows, they will have their value so their places are justified. yes, there are talents situationally good and generally meh, but down to the bottom, we're talking about giving up capstone for blindside or sepsis, with their precondition talents M,M and doom, it is not going to be a fair competition

[marble hemlock]

its not supposed to be fair. thats why theyre situational

do you not get this?

theres is no "perfect" balance

[whole mason]

If it is not a fair competition, then that's my point -- diversity maybe is lost to that.

[marble hemlock]

if they would be "fair", we would just sim what does 5dps more, and call it a day. by making them "not fair" and situational, we create a situation where you would play talent A on boss3, and talent B on boss5. that is good.

no. it creates more. as ive been trying to explain to you now for a long time.

if all talents compete with each other for the same benefits, one will always win

there is no competition anymore. you just pick the best

blindside is pure singletarget. ttb is pure singletarget. sepsis is pure singletarget. if those were all competing with each other, we would sim, and 2/3 of those would be useless.

[whole mason]

since it is not a fair competition, it will be then always good for A build (with competition advantage) and ok some boss we pick B. it is not diversity.

if it is fair, you may say that I just sim and pick, but maybe one sim is not far from the other but I like the style, then diversity happens.

[marble hemlock]

what build it is good for will depend on the synergies you create around it. blindside might be shit for a build that takes dragon tempered blades and carnage, but it might be good for a build that takes venomrush and doomblade.

[storm onyx]

Then its you get the good build for required task; thats porposeful?

[marble hemlock]

no, it doesnt. unless you enjoy picking a worse option for no reason whatsoever.

the only reason you can have diverse choices of talents, is to attach different purposes to them. you cannot have 5 singletarget talents all provide teh same dps so you can just pick 1 on saturday, and a different one on monday, and do the same DPS. thats not diversity, thats meaningless choice.

[whole mason]

or one build is more suitable for this boss's timeline and that fits another. otherwise we will always pick A for all 8 bosses and B build only for the 9th execute boss.

[marble hemlock]

and it is impossible to have rotation-altering talents that fill the same purpose

and somehow be balanced to give the same DPS

[soft isle]

Right now i’m not concerned with numbers thats a tuning problem. I’m interested in synergies.

[marble hemlock]

or mabye one build is more suitable with high crit/vers, while another is better with haste/mastery? youre making a lot of assumptions that are solely based on tuning and yet somehow its a structural issue of the trees. it cannot be both. not when we dont even know the numbers yet.

youre quite literally the only person i have met so far that thinks these tres offer less flexibility

[grizzled jay]

wait is that really the take here

[whole mason]

it is not just about sim, it is also about boss timeline and gear available etc. in this phase, we especially should not label talents into situations. getting more generally options should be better.

[marble hemlock]

you cannot have "more general" options that fill the same purpose

are you reading what im writing

[grizzled jay]

okay now i am being trolled

they are allowing you to save builds

you can just swap to any build on a per boss basis

lmao

[marble hemlock]

you can have 20 talents that all give 5% dps on singletarget. that's not choice. thats fucking boring.

[grizzled jay]

like i don't even get this point. "pick what is generally good"? why? do you not know what a Codex is?

have.... have you been using the same build for every boss and content?

[marble hemlock]

anyway, this discussion is getting too stupid for me, and we're going in circles with my arguments/points not even being addressed. im out.

[grizzled jay]

Seli thoughts on 20% AS trinket

[whole mason]

why we are wanting the same thing but we cannot understand each other. of course we can change talents per boss, and i know that.

[marble hemlock]

the what?

[grizzled jay]

then why make the point you should be picking "general" talents .

[grizzled jay]

@marble hemlock

[shrewd night]

Sounds good on paper, but balance can/might make it dookie. Discussing trinkets at this point is meaningless.

[marble hemlock]

oh yes, slice and dice lite in a trinket

[grizzled jay]

depending on proc chance and buff duration, wonder how much it slants crit

[bleak sky]

we're gonna be haste/vers gamers tmb

trust

[grizzled jay]

nah the last boss trinket gives you crit if you oath to Frost.

the synergy is too good

[bleak sky]

no seal of fate, MA+dance are gonna take care of us

[grizzled jay]

crit gamers

[bleak sky]

last boss trinket

lemme check

[grizzled jay]

Mark of the Primal Oath (Agi/Str/Int): Equip: Swear your oath to the Primalists to become Marked by Frost, increasing your Critical Strike by [medium amount]. Fighting alongside allies who are Marked by Earth or Fire has a chance to grant you half of their Mark's stats for 12 seconds.

[whole mason]

Yes, we may have ST, AOE, funnel, execute or other builds. but think about the exchange we made, for example, execute build would be ideal we do not choose some talents from 10th to something else at 10th row rather than change from a 10th row value talent to an 8th.

[bleak sky]

[bleak sky]

sounds like it could be interesting

BUT

[shrewd night]

[bleak sky]

BUT

I saw this one earlier today and it really tickles my spot

(Agi/Str): Stomp the ground, commanding flames to radiate outward from your position, dealing [medium] Fire damage to enemies struck and granting you a [medium] shield for 6 sec. After a delay, the flames return, dealing the same damage and refreshing the shield. Damage and absorption are increased for each enemy struck, up to 5 enemies. (2 Min Cooldown)

[grizzled jay]

that's a tank trinket bro

[bleak sky]

Decoration of flame

LISTEN I KNOW BUT

[shrewd night]

Says who

[bleak sky]

do damage get shield

[shrewd night]

Its a rogue trinket now

[grizzled jay]

oh and pvp i guess

[bleak sky]

it makes me giggly inside

[grizzled jay]

lmao

Rumbling Ruby (Str): Equip: Your attacks slowly build Concussive Force, granting [low] attack power per stack. At X stacks, your next 3 melee abilities emit a shockwave in front of you, dealing bonus Nature damage to all enemies in a line. Shockwaves deal more damage to enemies at high health.

okay now hear me out. i know it's a str trinket. but what if the shockwaves get increased by Shiv

[bleak sky]

here's why you're wrong

[marble hemlock]

is this the "lets cope over items 4months before releas" chat now?

[bleak sky]

this is the real rogue trinket shien

Equip: Enter an Elemental Stance. Successfully dodging or parrying an attack has a chance to unleash a powerful Elemental Counterattack to enemies in front of you as you assume the next stance.

[grizzled jay]

nah but the AS trinket is too good cause its proc deals nature and theoretically gets boosted by Shiv

[bleak sky]

no this is the we're having fun 😠

[shrewd night]

Hey man, its better than whatever you spent the last two hours doing, suck it

[grizzled jay]

just memeing if anything

[grizzled jay]

that + Moroes trinket

[bleak sky]

get the trinket I just linked + evasion + restless blades

• fly like a butterfly

[marble hemlock]

i wouldnt paint your mom in such a negative light, idk

[bleak sky]

BIG rogue pump

[bleak sky]

SYNERGY

[grizzled jay]

it's still so weird that Subterfuge and Dance are in the same "side" of a tree.

cause now that it doesn't have the bonus Garrote or bonus SD duration, SD itself just invalidates the talent entirely lol

i guess it does elongate SD by 3s with current understanding but like is that worth 2pts? probs not

[strange python]

How do you fix unity?

[sour wraith]

!unity

[prisma monolith]

All slots are close in output.
The best non tier slots across all specs are Belt or Wrists.
The best possible slot is likely Hands, Legs or Head.
Use a simulation to evaluate for your gear situation.

[sour wraith]

!unityfix

[prisma monolith]

If you have issues with UNITY not working try the following:

• Log out and in again
• Close down World of Warcraft and clear the wow cache (delete Cache folder in WoW/retail)
• Unequip the Legendary and equip it again
• Change Soulbinds/Covenant

To prevent this issue in the future:

• Make sure to avoid putting two different unity legendaries on different gear sets. If you swap saved gear sets with different unities, it will break.

[sour wraith]

@strange python

[faint harness]

Subterfuge does not work on dance

[strange python]

Are y'all full sending CDs on pull on jailer or waiting till first chain/bomb

[ebon notch]

Yes

[strange python]

Cloak it?

[ebon notch]

I delay pot and sigil for second cd usage with 2nd 3 stack

[strange python]

No sigil rip

[ebon notch]

Yeah I cloak the first oppression and gate late

[grizzled jay]

is that from alpha? sadge

[faint harness]

Realz said it didnt work, sadly dont have alpha

[grizzled jay]

unforch

even if it did idk if +3s on SD is worth 2pts lol

[ebon notch]

Didn't work as in bugged or intended to not work?

[faint harness]

12 sec dance would be very annoying to play as sub at least

Intended to not work

[grizzled jay]

if Realz says "didn't work" it means not intended

[faint harness]

Subterfuge is an ”after stealth” effect, not ”in stealth” if that makes sense

[grizzled jay]

ye i know conceptually why it wouldn't work

which makes it even worse lol

i don't even know a scenario you would ever take it.

[faint harness]

Pvp

[grizzled jay]

does Outlaw need Subt in PvP?

[faint harness]

Also 20% speed in stealth is not too bad

[faint harness]

No clue, honest

[grizzled jay]

lot of times they open with Blade Rush from stealth, i guess being able to ambush after is good burst.

but Blade Rush Kidney is a pretty common opener

[bleak sky]

pvp is a diff world i guess

[faint harness]

I just know that current subterfuge is trash and basically just a pvp talent for sub

[grizzled jay]

ye

well sub is a burst spec while outlaw is a '

'tank' spec

[faint harness]

Having both subterfuge and MA in a danceless assa build

Could not be awful i guess? For 2 points

Like i do not think the point before subter is bad

[grizzled jay]

not going dance would mean that ER is just insane i think lol

[faint harness]

Or tea is made good

I think being hardlocked into a assdance build isnt what the idea with the class tree is

So its possible it will see tuning/changes right

[grizzled jay]

i forgot i made this meme tree

god imagine ER is like the go-to for a rogue spec lmao

[bleak sky]

er on sin? there's no way it's good

[faint harness]

I do not wish that upon my biggest enemy

[grizzled jay]

maybe it works on SnD finally and we can drop Cut

[bleak sky]

[faint harness]

Nah ER is fine. I have a hard time visualizing a non-seal of fate assa spec tho

[bleak sky]

I think non-seal is going to be fine for raids

[grizzled jay]

the Ambush spec i go doesn't have SoF

[faint harness]

Weird

[grizzled jay]

cause you get a lot of CP generation from Blindside

[faint harness]

Ambush assa sounds weird

[grizzled jay]

new Blindside is nuts

it's Mut and Ambush now

so every Ambush, including Blindside Ambushes, can proc Blindside

and you get Dance now

[faint harness]

Ye

I mean i can see it

Ambush is just very expensive

[grizzled jay]

and with DS and the +CP, two Ambushes and you are at 6 exactly and can always finish with 6CP for the bonus Deeper effect

[faint harness]

I guess mutilate isnt much cheaper

Not going like more poison dmg

Etc

Idk just looks weird

[bleak sky]

something like this

[grizzled jay]

with the +CP talent Ambush and Mut are effectively the same except Mut OH attack can apply poison

[bleak sky]

should be fine as non-seal

[grizzled jay]

drop 1 cut and exsang for blindside probably stronger but not gonna get into semantics lol

[bleak sky]

idk, I'm kinda believing in the exsang + dance

[faint harness]

No amp poison either

[grizzled jay]

amp is bad

[faint harness]

Believing in anything related to exsang has traditionally been a bold stance

[grizzled jay]

amp is just bonus damage to a single envenom every 15s~

and env is meh

[faint harness]

15 sec?

Isnt it 15 stacks

[bleak sky]

I like the idea of amp poison but I've been clowned too many times in here so

I decided to post this one without amp

[grizzled jay]

15 stacks yeah but with Stealth Posions we have 100% application chance during Dance

[faint harness]

Do you melee once every second or what

[bleak sky]

my trees all have amp so far

[bleak sky]

that's not going live

that's getting changed**

[grizzled jay]

[faint harness]

Surely its faster than 15 sec

[bleak sky]

you could argue that I should drop venomous wounds (because that's getting replaced by semi shrouded suffocation)

[dark token]

I'm kinda sad there isn't more garrote amp % in the tree, vanish/subt/shrouded felt very nice to have actual 3t burst in raid scenarios

[faint harness]

0.7 sec per auto, it procs from abilities as well

[bleak sky]

so I don't know

[bleak sky]

there's already 50%

[dark token]

Yeah from one node

Imo replace exang with shrouded and call it a day, death mark is a better exang now anyway

[grizzled jay]

i think what might make Amp better is increasing the stack count to 30 so you can get 2 emp envenoms in a shiv window

[bleak sky]

shrouded is going on venomous wounds

[grizzled jay]

or 25

[bleak sky]

venomous wounds is going on improved poisons

[grizzled jay]

so you can't bank 2 but you can use 15 stacks and only need 5 more stacks to get that second amp

[bleak sky]

ALLEGEDLY

LIKELY

[dark token]

Ooh that's pretty nice

[grizzled jay]

SS is Imp. Garrote. Or is "SS" just going to be the +CP for Garrote?

[bleak sky]

BUT shrouded suff isn't going to be extra damage

just +cp garrote

[dark token]

:/

[grizzled jay]

SS going where VW is now makes sense, since Imp. Garrote is above it

[faint harness]

But whats the actual timer on buffed envenoms

[bleak sky]

right now on live?

[faint harness]

Cus theres no way in hell its 15

No like with amp poison

[bleak sky]

idk, need a smarter rogue

[faint harness]

If playing mutilate its prob more like sub 10 seconds

Easily

Idk i like that node, but i am also just a boomer that likes envenom

[bleak sky]

i really like the node

and I think it's going to be strong

[faint harness]

And i Imagine a world where you play scent carnage amp poison for funnel in m+ is quite potent

[dark token]

Need me a 0 envenom build

[faint harness]

Weird

[bleak sky]

zero filler spender build

[faint harness]

Spam ct

[shrewd night]

u mean like the good old fok build

[dark token]

CT >>> envonom for sure

[bleak sky]

wait soviet

[faint harness]

The foker

[bleak sky]

you want a CTTC-free build?

manually casting snd like a savage?

[dark token]

Ye

[bleak sky]

there's this other spec

push plays it a lot

[faint harness]

I mean i would prob drop cttc too, depending on the pacing of df assa

[dark token]

If it's auto cast why doesn't that node read

"sin has 50% atkspeed"

[oak sky]

@bleak sky premed bro

[grizzled jay]

if the ambush build has the CP gen enough, you might be able to

[dark token]

Having to envonom in m+ is

[faint harness]

If you have a lot of time over and energy to spend beyond just refreshing snd its actually not even that bad

[bleak sky]

prio damage

[faint harness]

I mean ironically i think an snd spending build is better with amp poison

Cus you get more stacks while using other finishers

[bleak sky]

this?

dropping venomous wounds for doomblade should be a good idea

[faint harness]

Wild

[bleak sky]

shrouded is going there

[faint harness]

Oh

Then te

Ye

[dark token]

Did you just take exang

[bleak sky]

yes

[faint harness]

I have another build in mind, sec

[bleak sky]

whispyr and seli made a very compelling argument for exsang

and I can't unsee it anymore

[balmy condor]

exsang is currently must-take

obviously will be tuned

[faint harness]

Wait whispyr is on the exsang train ???

I have seen everything

[balmy condor]

but I think if you're making an optimal current tree

and not just coming up with concepts

you'd be trolling to not take exsang

[sharp falcon]

re: Poison Bomb

[faint harness]

Give me the rundown

[bleak sky]

hello realz

[faint harness]

Why is exsang so good now

[sharp falcon]

for the moment let's assume it stays 1 point (just... for now, okay)

[bleak sky]

1 point pb

[balmy condor]

dance exists and gives the same damage amp as vendetta, but also works with MA, deathmark duplicates bleeds, lethal dose +% damage, throw it all together you get 9 seconds of omega, condense it into an exsang

[sharp falcon]

The spirit of the row (beyond Deathmark which is just an all-build centerpiece) is built around poisons and envenom... not rupture

[faint harness]

Alright yes, this makes sense

[sharp falcon]

i do like bomb in the row

[bleak sky]

ok

[sharp falcon]

but, it has a trigger off rupture atm. Reasonable to remove, but increase the per combo point chance from now-exclusively Envenom?

not married to the thought, but i think i like it

[dark token]

It was like that in legion and felt much worse imo

[sharp falcon]

it had higher %?

[dark token]

But it did feel more impactful when it procced

[sharp falcon]

and the % got lower and added rupture?

[dark token]

I believe same proc chance but damage was much reduced and proc got added to rupture in addition

[sharp falcon]

I don't want to just straight up remove rupture, I'm saying to remove rupture but compensate by making the Envenom side better

[balmy condor]

legion poison bomb was like easily 6-7x the damage

but the proc rate was the same

so it was just omega rng

[bleak sky]

I think that's fine imo

[balmy condor]

your damage was make or break on pb rng

[sharp falcon]

damage value tuning tbd

more a form-and-function question

[dark token]

I do like talents with a negative and a positive tho, leads to more diverse gameplay possibilities

[sharp falcon]

as it relates to the position and theme of the talent group its in

[strange python]

Okay jailer damage buff is only if you soak the line? Or just everyone in p3

[bleak sky]

soak azerite heal line

be in line with the heal

[strange python]

Every phase?

[bleak sky]

yes

[balmy condor]

form and function wise I think it's already mostly seen as an envenom thing

[strange python]

Howant people in a line

[balmy condor]

I don't see an issue with it

[strange python]

How many*

[sharp falcon]

agree, which is why i want an excuse to lean into that even more

[bleak sky]

everyone

[sharp falcon]

well the issue is it 'hurts' aoe potentially in M+

more likely to use rupture in AoE circumstances, and bomb hits AoE

[strange python]

So I'm omega trolling by not stacking with melee during soaks/heals

[dark token]

You never really spam rupture except in m+ and you don't take it in m+ currently, even if it was numerically equal to CT it would feel much less impactful and too rng I think

[balmy condor]

I don't think anyone cares about poison bomb being bad in m+

poison bomb has been seen as a dogshit m+ talent for 2 expansions now

[dark token]

Some times it's been numerically good on low target count dungeons

Like kings rest

[sharp falcon]

ok i'll think about it more

[balmy condor]

it's not even good single target, we've taken CT single target for the last patches of BfA and SL

[oak sky]

sad pb noises

[bleak sky]

yes, you want to be in line/grouped for the azerite pulse heal

[balmy condor]

I think part of that is that CT and PB are almost functionally the same except CT also scales off haste when PB doesn't

which is a little problematic balancing wise

[sharp falcon]

well they're not directly competing in new world so that's nice at least =p

[balmy condor]

means CT will always slowly catch up/pull away

but yeah

they're not competing now but it's been an issue in the past now

[oak sky]

Ct single target is too easy now lol

[balmy condor]

and a lot of that is just PB is seen as a free bonus in single target

[dark token]

Does the dashing scoundrel talent effect poison bomb/envonom? Don't think it does atm

[balmy condor]

that you just take because it's free

[sharp falcon]

oh hey look the wowhead trees updated with correctly positioned gates

[oak sky]

Envenom definitely this was a thing last tier

[unreal dagger]

off topic but a part of me loves that ct has stayed the exact same in its visuals and audio since mist lol

[bleak sky]

yes but now the tooltips are fucked up

[balmy condor]

the crit affects both yes

[dark token]

Honestly I don't know if poison bomb ever felt good, might be better to have a different poison/envenom amp

[balmy condor]

I think... the energy affects pb as well?

but don't quote me on it

[marble hemlock]

used to, at least

[sharp falcon]

no but envenom gives you more poisons, and envenom'ing more frequently gives you more poison bombs =p

[bleak sky]

is the vial it throws a poison? Would you know about that Realz?

[oak sky]

I saw that realz

[sharp falcon]

we all make mistakes

[balmy condor]

wait so dashing crit is not affecting envenom/pb anymore?

[marble hemlock]

[balmy condor]

cause right now the crit affects both

[sharp falcon]

???

[balmy condor]

we played dashing last tier specifically for the crit with frost set, and that behavior with envenom crit was a good portion of it

[sharp falcon]

that's not what's written at all, news to me, i didn't play with dashing personally

[dark token]

Maybe it should read nature dmg instead

[balmy condor]

let me double check real quick

[oak sky]

It was in all our logs last tier

[oak sky]

Should be easy to look and see it

[sharp falcon]

what am i missing

[balmy condor]

you're missing that "poisons" is a terrible indicator for what does and doesn't work

[sharp falcon]

Envenom('s buff) also increases the critical strike chance of your (weapon) poisons by 15%... etc

[dark token]

"poisons" was a bit ambiguous whether it effected envenom crit chance itself or poison bomb crit chance, and whether poison bomb ticks granted energy

[sharp falcon]

I am checking hold on

[oak sky]

Regardless of how its supposed to work thats how its been working

[marble hemlock]

it definitely increases envenom critchance as well. during beta it actually applied twice

took a while until it was fixed

[sharp falcon]

holy shit this is unbelievably misleading

[dark token]

Hahaha

[balmy condor]

well, welcome to our life

[marble hemlock]

assassination whitelists

[balmy condor]

mastery also says "poisons" but affects envenom as well

and zoldyck says "poisons" but doesn't affect envenom

[sharp falcon]

you'd think it'd either mean weapon poisons OR all poison damage (perhaps rogue skill poison dmg, but still)

[marble hemlock]

mastery affects both initial hit and dot of CT, zoldyck only affects dot 🙂

[sharp falcon]

yes, generally "poisons" means weapon poisons

[oak sky]

Love the inconsistency

[dark token]

Zoldyck affecting envonom we can only dream

[balmy condor]

yeah this is a tilter too

[marble hemlock]

or ya know

SBS

[sharp falcon]

and "poison damage" means all poison sources (perhaps rogue skill only)

[marble hemlock]

where mastery affects both the initial hit and dot, but not the sudden fractures tick, and zoldyck only affects dot, not hit, and not the fractures hit

[bleak sky]

so for this "new" dashing scoundrel talent coming up, is it a copy-paste from the legendary or is it a new implementation?

so we know what to expect works and doesn't

[sharp falcon]

copy paste

then modify as necessary

[balmy condor]

envenom crit is back boys

[sharp falcon]

but not reimplementation from scratch

[bleak sky]

I see I see

[sharp falcon]

i'm going to change the tooltip though

[bleak sky]

SO

[oak sky]

Pog clarity

[balmy condor]

clarity buff

[sharp falcon]

I'm totally fine with envenom and poison bomb crit being affected and it's comforting knowing that's how it already was

[dark token]

all things that say poisons change to nature damage and it all just works

[sharp falcon]

what DOESNT make sense

[balmy condor]

+5% intelligence

[sharp falcon]

is that it doesn't affect Sepsis

[bleak sky]

now that you're aware of that, would you say the poison bomb "vial" counts as a poison for dashing purposes?

[sharp falcon]

no

[balmy condor]

I FORGOT ABOUT SEPSIS

OH MY GOD

[marble hemlock]

everybody does dw

[main solar]

You were talking poison bomb a little while ago, any more though to making it floor puddle that adds a dot to targets walking/standing in it, rather than just doing damage while mobs are in it?

[balmy condor]

realz I am so sorry you're the one that has to fix all this mess