assassination

[fleet whale]

blindside is good just needs more things to synergize with it

[gusty mirage]

gives us a reason to press something other than mutilate

variety = good

exsang = dogshit

[fleet whale]

sin is a slow ass spec to start expansions so it helps with the pacing too

[quaint sequoia]

no need to make me use another keybind for more or less the same spell

[gusty mirage]

it

's def not more or less the same spell

[drowsy crescent]

Yeah but it feels like it

[gusty mirage]

I mean by that logic

[drowsy crescent]

Which I think is the problem

[gusty mirage]

sinister strike and mutilate are more or less the same spell

[quaint sequoia]

true

[fleet whale]

or ice lance and frost bolt

[quaint sequoia]

all cp builders are the same

[shadow tulip]

The same as Mortal Strike

[storm onyx]

every attack is somewhat same then?

[gusty mirage]

ambush does more damage

[shadow tulip]

You push it, it does dam

[quaint sequoia]

yea just have mut do extra dmg in stealth, then its ambush

[fleet whale]

why are backstab and Shadowstrike different abilities?
blizz could just make backstab deal more damage in stealth

[storm onyx]

thats a strange aproach tbf

[quaint sequoia]

I agree

[shadow tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[fleet whale]

I feel like your streamlining things for the sake of streamlining

[shadow tulip]

I'm entertained tho

[gusty mirage]

you guys just want to press one button for an entire expansion?

sounds extremely boring

we have plenty of specs/classes that do that

[quaint sequoia]

I just dont want to keybind ambush to another button than mut out of stealth

[gusty mirage]

then don't play blindside

pretty easy compromise

[balmy condor]

Did you notice that baseline ambush and mut are also the same spell? Both cost 50, give 2cp. Ambush does more phys damage, mut hits twice for more poison damage

[fleet whale]

did you notice that slaughter and ambush are the same exact spell?

[quaint sequoia]

that depends on tuning, I'll play whats best

[toxic locust]

did you notice that rupture and envenom are the same spell? they both spend CP to deal damage

[balmy condor]

Weird

[fleet whale]

yeah crazy isn't it

can't believe blizz would do that

[quaint sequoia]

backstab and shadowstrike I don't mind since you get the stealth skillbar in ShD

so no extra bind for it

[balmy condor]

Shadowstrike is also noticeably more powerful

[fleet whale]

just get an mmo mouse

[balmy condor]

Backstab and shadowstrike have completely different ideas

[drowsy crescent]

I just wish ambush was better and I was incentivized to use it over mutilate in all situations

[fleet whale]

@balmy condor maybe not in DF lmao

[balmy condor]

Well okay

[drowsy crescent]

Just like how shadow strike > backstab

[toxic locust]

it'll probably happen

realz talked about it

[fleet whale]

well if vm is only gonna give back 5 energy

i hope mut costs less

[abstract junco]

Not sure if this has been covered here yet: does Vicious Venoms deal 25/50% extra nature, or does it just convert standing damage? Thanks.

[balmy condor]

Extra

[abstract junco]

Outstanding

[fleet whale]

it's like double dose as a talent

[balmy condor]

Yep

[fleet whale]

that works on auto attacks too

[abstract junco]

Yeah that's great

[drowsy crescent]

That seems really, really good. Too good to be true for extra damage lol

[balmy condor]

There’s a lot of bonkers shit on the tree right now

[abstract junco]

Yeah

[balmy condor]

we aren’t in alpha

[fleet whale]

they should keep it that way

game isn't balanced unless rogues are good

[balmy condor]

Lethal dose is insane
Vicious venom is insane
shadow dance is insane cause apparently everything interacts with it

[abstract junco]

Like the gulf between some of the early 8 row and late 20 row doesn't seem that big

[fleet whale]

I don't think shadow dance will last as a general rogue talent if i'm honest

[toxic locust]

why wouldn't it lol

[abstract junco]

Yeah thinking about reups of Garrote from dance is mouthwatering

[quaint sequoia]

ShD shouldn't be in the class tree imo

[toxic locust]

yes it should

wtf

[balmy condor]

I think it’ll last but it’ll get put into the ground

[quaint sequoia]

it's a sub thing imo

[fleet whale]

well, pvp

[toxic locust]

sure, the same way poisons are a sin thing

[balmy condor]

I think it’s one of the more interesting choices atm

But it’s so crazy strong

[bleak sky]

Didn't know that talent was as extra nature damage

[toxic locust]

yeah, and it has some insane build potential for both sin and outlaw

[bleak sky]

Pp hard

[quaint sequoia]

then put blade flurry in class tree aswell

[bleak sky]

We go conversion

[toxic locust]

it'd be a shame if they removed it because it's usually sub only

since it's proven to be such a fun choice

[bleak sky]

[quaint sequoia]

I fucking hate that it looks like it will be go-to for sin

[balmy condor]

the real question is why is find weakness the talent you gotta go through to get to dance

[fleet whale]

it's gonna go cause there is going to be a massive outrage over it during beta and surely when DF launches

[toxic locust]

they're both sub's "things"

your reward for going deep down the sub side of the class tree

same way you can grab seal fate, sin's "thing" if you go down the sin side

[balmy condor]

Yeah except seal fate does something for all 3 specs

And find weakness doesn’t

[abstract junco]

Yeah I also had that thought. I wonder how much benefit Assa gets from FW.

[balmy condor]

But I get it

[abstract junco]

Right.

[toxic locust]

find weakness does interact with any ambush procs

like blindside or audacity

[balmy condor]

Uh huh

So ambush, mut, auto attacks

And……..

[toxic locust]

that's a good point

fucks sake

[balmy condor]

Oh, the instant damage on CT

[toxic locust]

[balmy condor]

Now I’m really grasping for straws though

[toxic locust]

hm

[marble hemlock]

im always in alpha mode, speak for yourself

[bleak sky]

Fok

[fleet whale]

I know this disc is pve focused but dance being a general rogue talent pretty much makes sub a dead pvp spec
sin would have the pressure it always bring + subs control/utility

[toxic locust]

does it? sub is the only spec that'll have the CDR

[balmy condor]

If you deal 0 damage and ignore 40% of armor, it’ll still do 0 damage

[abstract junco]

haha yup

[bleak sky]

[toxic locust]

find weakness kinda fucking sucks for sin, jeez

[bleak sky]

Fok got a 15% dmg bonus now ok you bully

[balmy condor]

Although I was actually thinking about find weakness on sin for aoe because of all the fok traits but guess what

[abstract junco]

With the right comp, I'd bet the interaction with autoing could be okay

[balmy condor]

YOU NEED TO AMBUSH TO GET THE BUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE

[abstract junco]

Ayyyy

[balmy condor]

Can’t even take advantage of it with fok

Cause the setup is too involved

[bleak sky]

Shadow dance -> spread ambushes -> fok fok fok fok fok

Great build

[marble hemlock]

wdym you can dance, spread ambush and then fok like twice before it runs out

[balmy condor]

Huge

[quaint sequoia]

also why the fuck is MfD so in the middle of everything

[marble hemlock]

thats my middle name

[quaint sequoia]

I don't wan't to be forced to use that shit

[toxic locust]

wait, maybe FW affects posioned knife

is it nature damage?

[balmy condor]

[bleak sky]

Pk

[balmy condor]

The hit is physical

[bleak sky]

[toxic locust]

YES

[balmy condor]

You’re technically correct

[bleak sky]

Weaving pk in the rotation

💀

[marble hemlock]

technically correct is the best kind of correct tho

[chilly marsh]

bleed dont work with FW?

[toxic locust]

nope

they already pierce armor

[abstract junco]

Bleeds already find the weakness. Not affected by armor.

[toxic locust]

let's ask realz to turn bleeds and poisons into physical damage so sin can use FW in dragonflight

next time he's here

[abstract junco]

haha

"Please"

[balmy condor]

Now that is actually just begging for nerfs

Make me weaker so it can interact with something to get the effect that it already had back

[chilly marsh]

they could always make something like FW increased bleed dmg by X as an extra too

[toxic locust]

sounds like some of the bfa-sl unpruning

you want this talent baseline? here it is with tripled CD, new talent in it's spot that makes it usable again

[toxic locust]

yea i think this is the way to go

[oak sky]

Mastery affects bleed and nature damage then vv would bang maybe??

[toxic locust]

at least, make it an effect on ambush

[quaint sequoia]

or just don't have sub niches in the class tree 🤷‍♂️

[balmy condor]

VV is not mastery buffed

[toxic locust]

don't add fun new subspec builds to other specs!! it's too much work

[oak sky]

Yeah that was a what if

[grizzled jay]

i am assuming Lethal Dose is going to be changed so it's really just a 6-10%~ increase. it probably will only be affected by lethal poisons, rup, garrote (and ct if we ever use it st)

[gusty mirage]

what if your aunt had balls?

[grizzled jay]

no way it drops live with 16% baseline lol

[balmy condor]

Then it would need more nerfs than what it needs right now

[grizzled jay]

although lethal dose can just be our aura

increase it to 32% if we really suck ass

[bleak sky]

Why are we wanting fw again?

[oak sky]

😈 can we be the new moonkins

[balmy condor]

Because we want dance and we’re forced to take it

[gusty mirage]

because you touch yourself at night

[bleak sky]

Do we want dance?

[gusty mirage]

I mean

what else do you take

[gusty mirage]

unlucky

[balmy condor]

Yes it’s the strongest rogue cooldown the game has ever seen given the current trees

[bleak sky]

Sadge

[balmy condor]

30% damage 30% crit and guaranteed poison application

[quaint sequoia]

why it shouldn't be in the class tree

[gusty mirage]

do we know why they decided dance should be in the general tree?

[balmy condor]

On a 1 min cooldown

[true pelican]

it works with ma?

[balmy condor]

Apparently dance is getting changed to work with everything that has an “in stealth” bonus yes

(Which is not how stealth interactions have worked since like wrath but whatever)

[abstract junco]

I wonder if they could reasonably get away with swapping Subter and FW

[true pelican]

i'll believe it when I see it lol, seems too strong

[bleak sky]

Doesn't make sense

Because subterfuge doesn't work with dance

[abstract junco]

Oh true

[bleak sky]

Gating dance behind a talent that doesn't work with it is weirdge

[abstract junco]

Def

[true pelican]

if it does work though, do you think it would make exsang playable?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[grizzled jay]

then we better tell Realz to break it

[bleak sky]

Say sike right now

[quaint sequoia]

or just tell him to remove that shit spell exsang

[grizzled jay]

that would be ideal

[abstract junco]

I mean honestly the tree could simply be "you can use shadow dance and garrote interacts with it" and I'd be down

[storm onyx]

We are getting a class redesign, atm there is no 'it shouldn't be here'; It can be. Main point is we provide good input and end design turns out to be well

[balmy condor]

Okay imagine right, you have vendetta, AND deathmark, and you cast them together, and get another 24% on top with lethal dose, AND you have subterfuge

Do you want exsang for that, yes or no

The answer is yes

You do

[bleak sky]

No

[grizzled jay]

oh wait do we think the deathmark dupe'd bleeds count towards lethal dose? no way man LMAO

that would be so insane in pvp

[balmy condor]

It’s confirmed that they do

[grizzled jay]

jfc

[bleak sky]

Lethal dose deathmark is definitely getting axed eh

[grizzled jay]

i haven't even looked at other dps trees, so they have anything close to this?

[marble hemlock]

Whispyr promoting exsang. The end of days.

[balmy condor]

Deathmark duplication actually just straight up ADDS another garrote, another rupture, another poison

Like you would have 2 garrotes

[grizzled jay]

yes i get that but i was hoping they'd be smart to not let that count towards Lethal Dose kekw

[balmy condor]

You get venomous wounds, etc

[quaint sequoia]

just keep vendetta imo

[abstract junco]

Brutalizing DoT heap

[balmy condor]

They act like their own bleeds

[abstract junco]

Love it

[fleet whale]

so the question i ask is...
is it possible to make a build worse than this nightmare?
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTPFVVVVVVUCIQEAQIAACKMVYqVUVZEAEDBA

[balmy condor]

Terrible take get the fuck out

[true pelican]

i mean there's nothing wrong with it working with lethal dose

it's just that lethal dose is too strong

[balmy condor]

No one wants your lame ass press button 30% damage buff until the timer runs out

Deathmark is giga sick

[bleak sky]

Deathmark is indeed poggers

Maybe even poggies

[toxic locust]

i'll miss vendetta's icon

that's it

just the icon

[fleet whale]

you can macro the old icon over it

[bleak sky]

#showtooltip Vendetta

[toxic locust]

fuck yes

[abstract junco]

I'm going to carve the icon into enemies using Deathmark

[oak sky]

Do i dare be a boomer

[true pelican]

i'm excited for rogue to actually have burst again

[quaint sequoia]

I just want uncomplicated dps-boosting cds

[bleak sky]

Ackchually that won't work you gotra find the icon manually

[fleet whale]

i changed the icon of exsang with a macro

[balmy condor]

Anyways I’m gonna get a burger and then update pins and make more talent trees

[fleet whale]

cause exsangs icon is so ugly

[bleak sky]

Borgir

[balmy condor]

Deathmark is almost as uncomplicated as vendetta

You have a dot

Now you have 2

[grizzled jay]

Lethal Dose has to be changed to just Lethal Poisons, Rup/Garr/CT. Then it'd be like 10% at most. i don't think stuff like Doomblade and Deathmark should count at all lol.

[balmy condor]

Anything you got from the first dots

You now get 2

[toxic locust]

more VW

[abstract junco]

BOGO

[balmy condor]

The only real difference between vendetta and Deathmark is that vendetta has no thematics, and simply says “take damage multiply by 1.3”, while Deathmark doesn’t explicitly just buff EVERYTHING

It’s harder to see the actual value

[grizzled jay]

we're going to have so much energy but not enough apm to use it all

[balmy condor]

But you know it’s big

[grizzled jay]

[balmy condor]

Because it’s literally just take dots and 2x

[fleet whale]

watch they make the first tier set bonus in DF be
"Deathmark now increases your damage by 30% on the affected target"

then people who miss vendetta can be happy

[bleak sky]

54% damage amp surely nothing bad can come out of it

SURELY

[balmy condor]

I think there’s a world where we actually energy cap and just can’t use blindside btw

[grizzled jay]

"Bleeds and poisons applied by Deathmark now have a 10% chance to spread to a nearby target."

[abstract junco]

It's also inescapable damage. Can't stun a bleed.

[toxic locust]

nah there's one thematic that deathmark is missing

deathmark should let you see invis targets

now vendetta can fuck off

[balmy condor]

#pvp

[toxic locust]

it's part of the theme

[bleak sky]

What theme

[balmy condor]

I didn’t even remember vendetta had that

[toxic locust]

trying to make a lame ass CD somewhat interesting

[fleet whale]

the theme of being an assassin

[balmy condor]

Literally do not care about seeing invis targets

[toxic locust]

that's the theme

[balmy condor]

Ratio

[bleak sky]

Lame cd?

Deathmark is dope as fuck

[toxic locust]

vendetta

not deathmark

[lucid birch]

VENDETTA IS DEAD

[toxic locust]

🦀

[bleak sky]

So you get a CD that only has application in pvp against specific classes

Damn that's real interesting

[fleet whale]

also, you can only "see" them on the mini map

[solid shale]

remember in mop i think it was that they gave us that stupid button that gave improved stealth for 10 seconds or some shit

[fleet whale]

oh yeah i remember that

[balmy condor]

Sounds like dance

[fleet whale]

pointless button

[solid shale]

stupid as fuck

[balmy condor]

[toxic locust]

shadow walk or some shit

yea

[fleet whale]

it was trash

[grizzled jay]

was op into ferals

[fleet whale]

i do sort of miss deadly throw though

[grizzled jay]

you just always caught them lmao

[fleet whale]

ranged interrupt was nice

[grizzled jay]

i remember the outcry when rogues suddenly got a "always get the opener" button against ferals LMAO

[solid shale]

like

[grizzled jay]

cause the Glyph also increased stealth detection too

[solid shale]

rogues just had better stealth until i dont even know when they took that away

but im pretty sure at the time it hadnt changed

[grizzled jay]

NE Druids had equal stealth tho

Shadowmeld increased effective stealth level by 1

[solid shale]

rogues had a talent that made them have increased stealth and stealth detection

[grizzled jay]

then Shadow Walk just invalidated all that

[solid shale]

no

[grizzled jay]

i don't think people really took Master of Subtlety did they

[solid shale]

rogues had better stealth just as talents u always took until like cata or mop

whatever talent made u walk faster in stealth also gave u better stealth detect or made u not be able to be seen from farther away or something

[storm onyx]

Rogue stealth had been nerfed twice in classic

Actually it is stronger now compared to 2 expansions before

[true pelican]

speaking of rogue stealth, has anyone had the 2 guardians outside gambit 1st boss somehow see you?

[bleak sky]

yes, that's a little fucked

known issue

[velvet ridge]

I hope death mark doesn't complicate my dot trackers in wa

Like, what rupture is it gonna track, how are we gonna identify between the 2

[toxic locust]

maybe they'll give it some fancy name

[balmy condor]

why would you need to identify between the 2

they're identical

[lucid birch]

[fleet whale]

people just want a WA for every small thing

[velvet ridge]

Dam, I got got

[fleet whale]

I remember seeing a Chinese stream before. Couldn't believe he was playing with so much clutter on his screen

[balmy condor]

having more information is always better

[gusty mirage]

it's because stealth is less effective when you're right in front of the mob, and both of them are staring inside. Good way around that is while shrouding, let someone run past them then shadowstep to that person

[balmy condor]

I don't care that I can't do anything with that information

the point is I have it

[fleet whale]

yeah but what if that information blocks your view of the room ol

[true pelican]

yeah, but I tried testing it with a druid friend, and he could literally just run around on top of them without losing stealth

[gusty mirage]

rogue stealth sucks

for whatever reason

[balmy condor]

I have 0 control over my flag stacks, but I will track them anyway so that I know that I definitely have an amount of them

I have 0 reason to track sin 2 piece, but you're damn fucking right I'm putting that shit on my nameplate

you cannot stop me

I am knowledge incarnate

[marble hemlock]

You didn't know kingsbane was a lethal poison

[balmy condor]

you didn't know I ate beans the day before you licked my ass

[marble hemlock]

[marble hemlock]

I have not yet done this.

[gusty mirage]

yet

[marble hemlock]

Never say never

Can't ignore that there might be a distant possibility in some parallel universe maybe

[drifting cloud]

isnt whispyr in germany soon

[balmy condor]

8 days

[thorny pond]

Airport food farts

Yum

🥄

[marble hemlock]

Why do you think the sexual tension between us has been increasing

[balmy condor]

I don't think I even know seli's real name

I just know him as seli

[thorny pond]

Selistan

[balmy condor]

imagine he shows up to my birthday party

just knocks on the door

and I introduce him as "my friend seli"

[marble hemlock]

I'll throw rocks at the window

Or toilet paper

Your choice

[balmy condor]

having a conversation in german

[marble hemlock]

No we won't

[balmy condor]

do I need to call it "erdrosseln" seli

[marble hemlock]

I refuse

I'll meuchel you

If you do that

[balmy condor]

I think In 8.1 I will play schurke in the branch meucheln

what a fantastic language

I had to do a coaching session in full german at one point

was very interesting

[timid cloud]

[balmy condor]

imagine the look on my face when I had to explain how to use shiv, but I didn't know the name in german

and then he told me it was "Tückische Klinge"

[bleak sky]

2 words

[glass tulip]

2 "words"

[balmy condor]

yeah but "Tückische" means treacherous and "Türkische" means Turkish

so you can see how my tongue did not enjoy it

[toxic locust]

treacherous blade?

sounds way better idk

[balmy condor]

"that cliff is treacherous" and "that cliff is turkish"

are two very different things

I was hard struggling man

eventually I just screenshared and made my trufigcd size 100000 and just used that to explain

[echo geyser]

hello whispyr are we done with the forbidden bleed build yet?

out the window done ?

[balmy condor]

no

ask again in october

[echo geyser]

fine ill be back

[balmy condor]

[gusty mirage]

If you find an exsang build that works I’m swapping fire mage

[echo geyser]

ill give u my restless crew

[gusty mirage]

I’m terrible at firemage ram

Like horrendous at it

[echo geyser]

that makes us 2

[gusty mirage]

like I'm pretty mediocre at rogue

but holy am I bad at casters

[balmy condor]

you got a mage already geared oxi?

cause this looks like it works atm

[gusty mirage]

nah I'll just refund DF and uninstall wow

seems easier

[echo geyser]

venomous wounds?

[balmy condor]

you don't like the cold blood mfd deathmark exsang combo?

[balmy condor]

VW is moving into stealth poisons from what we've been told

[echo geyser]

[balmy condor]

if need be, cut 1 point from elaborate planning and take VW

[bleak sky]

vr over ct?

[balmy condor]

like this

[balmy condor]

for single target probably yeah

lethal isn't staying the way it is either

[echo geyser]

[bleak sky]

exsang doesn't care about ct then? til

[balmy condor]

it does

[bleak sky]

[echo geyser]

does it snapshot all stats like mastery/haste?

[balmy condor]

just haste

[echo geyser]

no mastery on use then

[balmy condor]

exsang is identical to current 4 piece, except you press it and it only works on the dots currently on the target

once they expire you don't get more

oh and exsang obviously doesn't do poisons

but who cares

[echo geyser]

back in uldir do u remember what u had to choose from between exsang

in the talent tree

[gusty mirage]

toxic blade

[balmy condor]

yeh

[echo geyser]

wtf

[balmy condor]

toxic blade venom rush exsang

venom rush was 5 energy I think

so it sucked

and poison damage sucked

and shrouded was strong

therefore exsang good

[echo geyser]

so shrouded would be the tipping point of no return for exsang builds maybe

[bleak sky]

I'm not liking where this is going

[balmy condor]

shrouded damage isn't coming back

the cp are

well

might

[echo geyser]

maybe a bit of dmg

[bleak sky]

no damage

[balmy condor]

highly unlikely

[bleak sky]

dev said no

no damage ram

[toxic locust]

fuck exsang gimme kingsbane

[quaint sequoia]

sadface

[balmy condor]

exsang probably good with current dance

[toxic locust]

wtf

[balmy condor]

but current dance on the tree is legit just non-tier vendetta but better

dance on sin tree if everything works the way we think it does is a 30% all damage amp, 30% crit rate, and 100% poison application

vendetta in aoe but with crit rate

silly op

[quaint sequoia]

don't wanna play subsin tho

[balmy condor]

then hope something stronger comes along, or dance interactions get nuked from orbit

[quaint sequoia]

I'm here hoping they remove spec niches from class tree

[bleak sky]

all 3 rogue specs abusing shadow dance

[gusty mirage]

did they elaborate why ER ended up in the general tree instead of something like flag?

I missed so much

[echo geyser]

yeah flag with exsang wouldve been sick right

[bleak sky]

#assassination message

all you gotta know about the dev

[echo geyser]

[gusty mirage]

poor daps

getting dunked on by everyone

[toxic locust]

when the dev assassinates someone in the assassination channel you know the class is in good hands

[oak sky]

I like ttb keep it

😈

[bleak sky]

I bet you like exsang as well

[oak sky]

Im out for everyones worst interests

I mean

Tbf

[toxic locust]

i don't hate ttb i just don't think it should be a capstone

[oak sky]

Exsang even though its weak is something

Ttb as a capstone is for sure sus

[echo geyser]

im not a particular fan of exsang, i just wouldnt mind if its actually good u know

[toxic locust]

yea

i don't like having talents rot for multiple patches

[oak sky]

Like exsang is a thought you know

[ebon notch]

but ttb is bad

why would he dunk on me so hard

[oak sky]

"The rest is up to you"

[ebon notch]

hes the dev for the tree!!!

it is up to him

[bleak sky]

you set him up good

[ebon notch]

fk u

how was my dissertation

[oak sky]

Bro youre just gonna go and be like hi ttb is boring change it for me please

And not expect to get dunked on

[ebon notch]

yes

?>??

[oak sky]

Ur right of course

[ebon notch]

thats feedback

wdym

[oak sky]

But you gave him a free pass to dunk on you

[ebon notch]

maybe he thinks ttb is lit

[oak sky]

Its the way its presented

[ebon notch]

ill present dn

[oak sky]

Dn stand for do not?

As in do not dm me?

[bleak sky]

just got to reading it, spent the last...... 15 hours sleeping

and or in bed

[grizzled jay]

not having Doomblade seems troll? missing another 2% from Lethal Dose on top of its damage

Elaborate Planning is the same damage increase but conditional lol

[peak bobcat]

W

[balmy condor]

who?

[obtuse robin]

whispyr lives in the future where lethal dose is nerfed

[storm onyx]

Dev said he percieved ER as the best recieved power by rogues; then ppl filled him in how Assasisnation players didn't even consider it. Don't remember his reply on it.

[grizzled jay]

[bleak sky]

nah man it was a major L I can assure you

[balmy condor]

asked?

[grizzled jay]

it's more than 20dps tho

[bleak sky]

[grizzled jay]

also you responded so checkmate

[oak sky]

"Sample" talent tree

[grizzled jay]

wonder if TTK will be moved or buffed since competing with Amp Poison is clearly troll

[balmy condor]

amp poison sucks atm

[grizzled jay]

oh really 👀

[oak sky]

@bleak sky yo can u hit me with the bis 10.0 leveling build thanks

[grizzled jay]

is that including potential "100% proc rate during Shadow Dance" windows? though i suppose TTK is active pretty much at all times and not dependent on Vanish/SD windows.

[balmy condor]

you get a single envenom that does 30% more damage

[obtuse robin]

sucks cuz envenom sucks

[balmy condor]

every 10 seconds

massive damage

huge pog

[grizzled jay]

hmm, true. though it's competing just with Instant Poison overall

[balmy condor]

what

[timid cloud]

30% more damage on my 15th damage ability overall!

[uneven hamlet]

my outlaw is simming 16.6 and my assa 16.2

[bleak sky]

yea hit that insta 60 button easiest leveling of my life

[balmy condor]

instant poison is good

[timid cloud]

[balmy condor]

that's normal

[uneven hamlet]

[obtuse robin]

also depends on how much dmg the poison from amp does

[balmy condor]

yeah I guess so

but right now it seems very underwhelming

[obtuse robin]

doubt it gets to deadsly levels

also depends how much lethal gets nerfed

but i agree looks meh

[balmy condor]

the choice between amp poison and ttk is like picking between one grain of rice or two grains or rice extra in your bowl

[obtuse robin]

ttk is an eye roller

[balmy condor]

ttk can be really good depending on how slow sin is

or in aoe

[obtuse robin]

if they want to move vw u can out it in ttk spot ur always gonna be that direction

[timid cloud]

I’m ready to drop CT like a bad habit.

[obtuse robin]

lethal dose max bleed max poisons ct confirmed in 10.0

u heard it here first

[balmy condor]

good luck

[strange python]

will prolly have CT single target again huh

[obtuse robin]

[strange python]

[gusty mirage]

you love it

[obtuse robin]

looked liek it with pre nerf LD but now i doubt

[gusty mirage]

you just don't know it yet

[obtuse robin]

who knows tho

[gusty mirage]

let's be honest, even if we hate it we'll play it

[strange python]

^

[obtuse robin]

i hate it now and i play it

[strange python]

if sin is slower i may not hate CT single target

[obtuse robin]

well not anymore im a pirate boy atm

[strange python]

is cold blood only usable in stealth

[balmy condor]

no

that would be awful

[obtuse robin]

wait cold blood fat juicer amp envenoms

[balmy condor]

yes

except envenom does terrible damage

[obtuse robin]

im glad it does

kinda

i wanted to get back to our fantasy

[peak bobcat]

Assas is better when mut and env do damage

[balmy condor]

better how

[drowsy crescent]

I call this the "I don't want to hit any extra buttons build" https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTNFVUBBARGghFzZAACKNVYoFQUJhRRQwQA

[gusty mirage]

unlucky, specced into mfd

and exsang

[peak bobcat]

I just think the 4pc gameplay is bland

[gusty mirage]

[drowsy crescent]

so true

[gusty mirage]

oh

that's doomblade

nvm

[drowsy crescent]

doomblade ❤️

[peak bobcat]

Preferred toxic blade and pooling

[drowsy crescent]

• Maim

[gusty mirage]

bro can we throw mfd in the trash already

ffs

[zinc frost]

Talent should die along with shadowlands

[spare flame]

Anyone know of a post-nerf mythic jailer vid for rogue? Doesn't appear to be anything on youtube but perhaps a twitch broadcast?

[balmy condor]

nothing changed rotationally

[prisma gorge]

so does sin even bother to vanish on cd?

[balmy condor]

vanishes during vendetta

because of MA

[prisma gorge]

got it

ty

[meager granite]

Whispyr, going back to the exsang discussion, and knowing very well that you dont like it. You talked about the fact that a dmg amp on bleeds is needed for it to be somewhat decant. Wouldn't a shadowdance spec solve this problem : 10% dmg up from SD, 20% dmg up from Nightstalker and MA being active during SD time so significant increased crit chance (Realz mentionned in a post that it would be intended that all stealth effet would apply with SD - even if i would argue that this would bring huge balancing issues).
the 45 sec cd as we know it currently sucks, and doesnt align with Deathmark.... what if exsang power would be increased and cd to 1min or stay same effect and cd decreased to 30sec.
You would then have 100% or 50% of exsang used with SD (and the dmg amp) but also with deathmark on cooldown. (which would imply energy wasted through VW ofc)

[balmy condor]

yes

that's been the discussion for the last day

because realz said in the pvp channel that everything works with dance

which then means dance is actually a ridiculously op button

and probably required to take on any tree on every spec in current form

[meager granite]

my bad, i only read the back and forth with Realz, not the spam of sunday ....

[balmy condor]

yeah all good

we've been crying for a couple hours now

it's easy to miss through the tears

[storm onyx]

everything works? wow

[balmy condor]

yeah

[meager granite]

its called a normal day on spec discussion channels no?

[balmy condor]

as opposed to the last 10 years of stealth effects, apparently in dragon flight if it says "gives stealth benefits" and something says "in stealth", it just works

[meager granite]

in the end we just all are wild animals, especially seli with his builder build...

[meager granite]

my 2 cents but i prefer it that way, tho it will be a balancing nightmare

[storm onyx]

then k i can understand MA toned down to 30% but thats quite different

[balmy condor]

I don't see a world where the interactions can exist in current form

like either you nerf dance and all the stealth effects into the dirt

or you make them not interact

since legion, blizzard has decided to go for option #2

[meager granite]

it would add another layer to nightstalker and MA and not just affected once every 2 mins

[balmy condor]

would be interesting to see how realz makes option #1 work

[meager granite]

tbh one thing i never understand, is how devs are fine with outlaw being the class that uses vanish the most in fight (due to their DR effects) while thematically, assa and sub would be the class that would make most sense but are stuck with a 2min cd

[storm onyx]

Dono, historically Sub complaint was they hit like wet noodles out of dance; hence the spec got tuned again and again

[meager granite]

this is such an unexploited part of the specs. But i can already here pvpers tears if other rogue specs have a way to lower their vanish CD which would synergize with some talents

[storm onyx]

they want Outlaw to be the swashbucler and survive doing it; cd reduction is quite a part of that

more than a year my finger pressed gauge keybind after it was pruned; as Assassination there comes a point you are left with nothing at all. Longer vanish, shows at some point they just decided we should die more with no support.

[meager granite]

i don't mind their Cd reduc, just that it doesnt makes sense that the only class that does not have incentive to stealth is the only one to have a way to cast vanish more often. One could argue that sub has SD which simulates a stealth but assa got nothing (prior to DF talents), and we have subterfuge/improved garrote/MA. the fact that vanish is a 2min CD for the class makes it nearly a mandatory offensive CD otherwise its a wasted talent row

[storm onyx]

Outlaw gets Roll the bones bonus for Ambush and Dispach from stealth

[meager granite]

they didnt in BFA for example, and the mecanic was the same

[storm onyx]

its also their dmg* rotation

that was before the changes yea

Also, we were designed with Preperation in mind

so we had arguably double vanish

i do miss it tbf

[meager granite]

On another note, I don't recall seeing someone asking Realz if Deahtmark and ICarnage would have any kind of synergy? Like put Deathmark on main target press Icarnage and double garotte and rupture on the 8 targets (unlikely to happent tho but would be fun)

[storm onyx]

i really don't think that would go live; it will be considered a bug!

Joke aside; Deathmark is still a single target commiment

not that restrictive as vendetta is but still

[meager granite]

Could be a fun way to turn it into a AOE CD, but if then we have thhe interactions with SD that we mentionned... no way this happen

[storm onyx]

couse it omits DD attacks and autos

[prisma gorge]

so does sin currently keep up tempest during vendetta

over envenoming

[storm onyx]

with tier set we do

but SnD is priority compared to CT

So we still envenom if it comes to refresh SnD

also this is for Venthyr

[prisma gorge]

ya

trying sin for jailer prog

[slow marsh]

Hi I heard that the dragonflight talent tree is kinda nice

[storm onyx]

it looks nice; sure lots of tweaks and tunes will come

[slow marsh]

I took one look at it and saw dance in class tree and closed the window

i'll look again after it's reworked

[hollow river]

wait what? wasn't he saying something completely contradictory to that

[strange python]

he said that effects from stealth breaking aren't granted by dance

so like subterfuge doesnt proc off shadow dance

[hollow river]

#assassination message

[balmy condor]

Yes

MA/NS is not breaking stealth

It’s during stealth

[hollow river]

ok so 2 different things then

[strange python]

lol

[balmy condor]

Well yes

One is effects after stealth

One is effects during stealth

[hollow river]

still rather confusing

yeah

[strange python]

not really

[balmy condor]

Dance gives the effect that say during stealth, so MA for example is in

[strange python]

effects granted during stealth = granted in shadow dance

[balmy condor]

Stealthed poisons are in

[hollow river]

from a gameplay perspective it is

[strange python]

effects granted after BREAKING stealth = not granted by breaking shadow dance

[hollow river]

because such things haven't ever worked that way

[strange python]

sure

but new xpac

new talent tree

things change

[hollow river]

Yeah I guess

Sin dance exsang Nightstalker

Weird times we’ll be living in once 2023 begins

[strange python]

exsang

[hollow river]

I don’t mind it

Just wish they’d buff it in some way

[strange python]

idm either its prob just never gonna see play

except in special world where garrote does a bajillion dam and you have 80% haste and blood of the enemy exists

or if it just gets buffed a shit ton

[hollow river]

Iirc seli seems to think it might

[strange python]

it could if this new cd meshes with it

can do some cool shadow dance burst build

[ebon notch]

i always forget

is the cdr for dance inherent or is it talented for sub

[hollow river]

Talented

[strange python]

rn its passive in sub, sub is talenting into it in DF

only other cdr for it in df trees rn is restless blades but think that might go away

[ebon notch]

cause i thought it was passive for sub and you talented into a stronger version

in current patch i mean

[strange python]

yea rn its passive for sub

and you talent into enveloping

that increases it by .5 sec

[ebon notch]

hm

[strange python]

per cp spent

[ebon notch]

i wonder if theyll keep it similar

and you talent into further reduction

could be even more interesting for sin

[strange python]

no its going to just regular 1 sec per cp spent

and theres no reduction for it in the base rogue tree

[ebon notch]

you mean base or only with the talent

ah igy

cringe

[strange python]

there is no base cdr for it in the rogue only tree

sub has cdr in its tree

and then outlaw has it on restless blades but again thats likely to go away

[ebon notch]

why

seems pretty thematic

[strange python]

would be weird if a spec uses shadow dance better than sub lol

or has a higher uptime of it than sub

since for the entire existence of the game it was sub only button

[hollow river]

i kinda disagree

[storm onyx]

Arent they jack of all trades )

[meager granite]

same logic would apply to vanish and yet .....

[hollow river]

and don't think outlaw would have better use anyway

[strange python]

how do you know

[ebon notch]

sub had 2 charges and could rebuild them extremely easily

[hollow river]

because outlaw doesn't get enveloping

[meager granite]

they are not rogues to me so....

[ebon notch]

especially with the kyrian shit going on in their tree

[strange python]

you wont use the kyrian stuff as sub i dont think

unless ER initial hit is drastically boosted

[hollow river]

it could be pretty strong

tbh

[strange python]

the ER stuff?

[marble hemlock]

Wait

[hollow river]

yeah

[bleak sky]

perma 6 dice is pretty fucking strong

[marble hemlock]

What channel am i in

[hollow river]

the wrong one

[strange python]

ER is too deep in the middle of the tree and costs 3 points for the entire thing, which is still nerfed

[meager granite]

Embrace the Shadow Dance, master CD of all rogue specs !

[hollow river]

how is it nerfed

[marble hemlock]

Maaa? There's a word looking spec here and it's scaring Lucy. Maaa?

[strange python]

doesnt boost 4 cp anymore

only 3 at most

[hollow river]

no

incorrect ya?

[strange python]

thats with 2 points in the legendary

no bro lol

i know what im talking about

[marble hemlock]

probably no one getting that meme

[hollow river]

it awards 4 cp

[gusty mirage]

This is where they come to discuss things because it’s safe from they who shall not be named

[hollow river]

read the one below it

.

[strange python]

1 combo point

2 additional

1+2

=3

[hollow river]

"Awards 2 combo points"

[marble hemlock]

hope you got the meme at least

[hollow river]

2+2

[strange python]

bro...

[gusty mirage]

I did

[strange python]

read the 1st ability

carefully

[hollow river]

read the tooltip LOL

it says 2

[marble hemlock]

thats a weird looking fucking spec

[ember mural]

[strange python]

notrickz

brother

read the first sentence

of ER

awards 2 combo points

[hollow river]

read the last sentence

[strange python]

its REGULAR

COMBO POINT

GENERATION

[hollow river]

hmmm

[gusty mirage]

The ability generates 2cp

[strange python]

it charges 1

it charges 3 if you spec 2 more points

i told you ik what im saying lmao

[hollow river]

lolol

[strange python]

anyway

[hollow river]

would be weird with deeper

[strange python]

too deep in the middle and too many points invested for the entire package

only outlaw could spec it i think

or would want to*

[hollow river]

yeah for a no dance build maybe

[storm onyx]

so we have a main covenant ability in class tree; that would be useable by only 1 spec?

[hollow river]

most likely only 1 would want to yeah

from the looks of it

[strange python]

i mean its usable by all 3 just only 1 will probably want it

[storm onyx]

thats bad

[strange python]

because for the other 2 the left side and right side have too many attractive things

[hollow river]

thistle tea is also bad

[storm onyx]

yea by usabele i meant desired

[strange python]

im not 100% sure btw my take on that is pure feelcraft lol

[gusty mirage]

Depends on how it works. It’s not per se bad, just not as good as dance

[storm onyx]

Thistle can make a surprise at start of expansion; where we dont have much energy regen

[gusty mirage]

And it’s worse than vigor

So there’s that ig

[bleak sky]

it's got one use right: opener

we don't really get starved after that

[balmy condor]

I come back and it's a 15 minute argument on ER and Thistle

bruh

[strange python]

ppl cant read

typical day in rh

[gusty mirage]

There’s been a 5s discussion about thistle tea

Tf

Don’t lump that in with their ER talk

[balmy condor]

we take neither

[strange python]

whispyr i didnt see a shadow dance tree for assa in the pins

[balmy condor]

GG go next

[balmy condor]

how about fuck you

[strange python]

wtf

[balmy condor]

I don't see you licking my balls

how about that

[gusty mirage]

Got em

[strange python]

[hollow river]

shit post too stronk

[marble hemlock]

i called you but you didnt react

[hollow river]

can never stop

[meager granite]

for ST between venum rush, venomous wounds, tight spender, deathmark , deadly precision + seal of fate and dashing scoundrels ... i think our energy might be the best ever for an expac begining

[strange python]

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTPFVUBBARGgJFwZCBAACKNVaoFQUJgQFQwQA

is this bad or

[balmy condor]

no that's basically the ST tree

in its entirety

[gusty mirage]

I’m powerless against him, so that’s the first issue

[hollow river]

[strange python]

oh i thought dance might be bad since you didnt put it in your general tree

for raid

[meager granite]

Nah, he forgot exsang kekw

[balmy condor]

we did that before we found out that dance just works with everything

[strange python]

ah

[balmy condor]

and now dance is like

[strange python]

i see i see

[balmy condor]

actually stupid busted

[strange python]

yea might not mind playing this spec in df if it can be like this

[gusty mirage]

I mind you playing it

Fuck you ninja boy

[drowsy crescent]

I don't like dance tho

[strange python]

oh are people crying in here that they get shadow dance

[gusty mirage]

They can’t seem to find binds for all the extra buttons. Which is odd considering the rotation outside of vendetta is 1 button

[strange python]

weird

[oak sky]

I dont love getting shadow dance it feels off theme but why should i care that much im playing sin with or without dance

[strange python]

yea its weird

[gusty mirage]

We got a bunch of cool new shit. It looks very interesting

[strange python]

ye the new 2 min is way cooler than vendetta

[gusty mirage]

I’m excited to see how it plays out

[strange python]

thank god that got tossed

[oak sky]

Yeah theres enough other cool shit that i literally dont care

[gusty mirage]

If we play dance, we play dance

Who cares

Everyone told me I was being cranky when I hated the 4pc because it “changed the playstyle” well mfers so does dance

[strange python]

its just thematically weird but enough has been designed around it that it probably is gonna stay

[oak sky]

I might not want dance but i want carnage and double lethal poison and all that stuff

[strange python]

carnage is sick lol

[gusty mirage]

At least dance opens up the opportunity for even more play style changes

[strange python]

yea

you guys have a non ST cd now

[gusty mirage]

Rather than refresh bleeds faster

Wow so involved

[meager granite]

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTPBRFBBARGgpFxYCBAACKNVaIEQVJhRFQwQA
Embrace the glass canon assa and get your rogue buddy to spec into atrophic poison for the raid 🙂

[strange python]

carnage + scent of blood after your 3 garrotes

into dance

more garrets

[gusty mirage]

Hope our smart people get alpha/beta access and watch rogue stonks rise

[oak sky]

Give me beta (i do damage)

[gusty mirage]

Ye that’s why I’m psyched about dance, dance into a billion garrets would be fun af in keys

[strange python]

dw bruv atrophic poison gonna be shipped to the regular rogue tree

[oak sky]

Doesnt carnage spread garrote too

[gusty mirage]

Imo it should

Yes

[strange python]

oh wait

[gusty mirage]

Like the m+ playstyle possibilities are insane

[strange python]

it does 1 of each????

[meager granite]

doesnt change the fact that if one got it, you dont take it 😄

[strange python]

so you can do both?

with 1 cast?

wait bruh

it says your next garrote AND your next rupture

[gusty mirage]

Yep

[strange python]

[gusty mirage]

It’s insane

[strange python]

thats sick wtf

shit maybe i wont neck myself if im forced into atrophic poison bot

[ebon notch]

I don't think there's any way it could go down to 1 min cd tho

Wish we had a 1 min cd for m+

[oak sky]

Bro its fine

[strange python]

you do its dance lol

[oak sky]

Different classes have different pull timings

[strange python]

you prob hold that thing for dance

[oak sky]

Thats ok

[strange python]

or hold dance for that thing

depending on whatever pull garbage youre doing

idk bro that sounds actually sick wtf

[balmy condor]

this tree doesn't work btw

the 8 required line is 1 line lower than it should be

[meager granite]

Yeah i know, let me dream !

[strange python]

bro i kinda hope indiscrimnate carnage ruptures individually count towards poison bomb procs

cherry on top

[balmy condor]

by the sound of it, they do

but like, what's 3 poison bomb procs?

[meager granite]

i hope they rework PB, and make it an active

[balmy condor]

250 damage?

[strange python]

idk

[balmy condor]

[strange python]

but still sick

[meager granite]

the dmg sucks, the proc rate sucks, the area width sucks

[strange python]

poison bomb has cool sound effect

even if the dmg sucks

[storm onyx]

at this point i be happy if it just sticks to target

[strange python]

you'll feel sick asf doing it

[meager granite]

Yeah, and i can still hear my Legion tears of tanks moving packs or boss out of it

[strange python]

thats what you deserve for playing degenerate casino bomb spec

[meager granite]

always hates that last talent row

and still do

its either unreliable, useless or a spell that should be baseline

[gusty mirage]

I’m happy hidden blades is fucking gone

Holy shit what a terrible talent

Stacking damage amp to fok

Wow!

Takes forever to get full stacks

[meager granite]

I used to take it during bfa S2 with echoing blades, was fun but not game changer, and definately not used to its full potential. but CT was a dmg loss and PB was irrelevant

[strange python]

you got the pvp talent in return

the radius and dam at target threshold

like or dislike

[meager granite]

+15% dmg at 5+ targets

[storm onyx]

Actually pvp talent is better for pve

[gusty mirage]

It’s legit better than the conduit we had all expac

[meager granite]

true

[strange python]

nice

you got the conduit too!

xd

[meager granite]

but now you can have poisoned katar and flying daggers

[gusty mirage]

HUGE

I tried finding ways to eliminate fok from my tree

[meager granite]

but in the single target tree 🙂

[strange python]

aye bro im ngl

ill spec into anything that prevents me from getting 1 cp foks

[gusty mirage]

Because I’m haunted by 1cp foks with 40% crit

[strange python]

rofl

actual depression when 1 cp fok

[gusty mirage]

Then you fok again and go “oh no way it happens twice”

[meager granite]

at least with echhoing blade, this was not something you would pay attention to 😄

[gusty mirage]

Then you have 3cp and you’re like what the fuck

I spent 2 globals for 3cp

[lucid birch]

Rogues were never good in dungeons it was a government conspiracy

[gusty mirage]

[marble hemlock]

cough

[meager granite]

I see what you did there

[marble hemlock]

spoken like someone who gets declined for +7 weekly no leavers

[gusty mirage]

I feel attacked

[balmy condor]

thats one of my guildies, he's a healer you'll have to forgive him, he's a little bit fucked in the head

[gusty mirage]

I got declined from a 15 today

[marble hemlock]

understandable, raiding with you seems incredibly mind-fucky

[bleak sky]

I'm getting it don't worry

[gusty mirage]

I said smart

Plus go to outlaw already traitor

[meager granite]

dont laugh i used to get declined last expansion because i was "playing the wrong spec" even for +10

[gusty mirage]

@bleak sky my RL put me in on pantheon for reclear because he thought it was funny (help)

[meager granite]

therefore i didn't knew what i was doing

[bleak sky]

I managed to get out of pantheon AND anduin reclear this week

[lucid birch]

Tel him you have a sick WW friend to take your spot

[gusty mirage]

Ok

[bleak sky]

listen cumin picker, I am playing assass of nation whether you like it or not

[gusty mirage]

You can just have my raid spot if you want

I’m washed anyway

[strange python]

cumin picker lmfao

[marble hemlock]

summer break bitches