the wording is how we know they are different
#assassination
bleak sky
Yeah if you have sludgefist 2.0 sure the poison isn't mandatory
ebon notch
and if they remain in their current state they will be stacked
ebon notch
Yeah if you have sludgefist 2.0 sure the poison isn't mandatory
even then imagine rygelon
sure it wont stop quasar damage
but you could shiv the core that explodes
7% reduced damage for tank
ebon notch
and the boss doing 3% flat less on rwf prog is insane
cursive summit
7% is absolutely not balanced lul
cursive summit
As much as I like how strong it'd be, 7% is 100% not balanced
bleak sky
Early jailer was feasting on tanks
craggy oak
Then the issue is if it does become 7%, cringe gameplay of shiv, which was discused yesterday
cursive summit
yeah
Shiv being a dps cd AND a defensive CD is kinda dog
like old Feral Spirits
ebon notch
Then the issue is if it does become 7%, cringe gameplay of shiv, which was disc...
it was already confirmed that master poisoner buffs it
so shiv should buff it further
bleak sky
7.2% 
ebon notch
possibly the worst implementation of a raid cd they could come up with
short of putting it on vendetta
imagine holding your vendetta to give raid wide DR
craggy oak
it was already confirmed that master poisoner buffs it
Damn didnt know it was confirmed
ebon notch
@bleak sky they should make our feint aoe instead, thoughts?
craggy oak
With that confirmation, did he say anything on the matter of the dps amp and raid cd use of shiv as one thing being bad?
bleak sky
Holy shit mechanics would have to kill everyone if feint isn't pressed
craggy oak
What is cd of feint?
ebon notch
15s
if it was a talent theyd have to make it so nerfed tho
like party only
or within 5yds
or increase the cd by 15s or smth
or reduced effect
bleak sky
Even party seems absolutely disgusting
craggy oak
Ik it doesnt really make sense, but it would seem better, in my head, if when we activated feint, it buffed the dr of the posion, but you would either have to make feint have same cd as shiv, or have internal cd of how often you can boost the dr of the posion
bleak sky
Do not want any of that even being remotely considered
craggy oak
Proper janky fix but better than now
cursive summit
remove all the raid utility and bring back smoke bomb in the generic tree
for raid wide dr
😄
bleak sky
Goliath orbs
strange python
ahhhh ok
bleak sky
No officer I was being a very bad boy
gusty mirage
grizzled jay
Alright alright. Are you guys behaving?
Look who it is
dense jolt
Does haste also make poisons tick faster or just bleeds?
stiff current
Does haste also make poisons tick faster or just bleeds?
Both. If you hover over the deadly poison weapon buff (or the debuff on the target) it should tell you how fast it's going. IIRC every 2s is without haste
gusty mirage
Depends. We broke whispye
Can’t break what was already broken
spice spire
Always has been
kindred rapids
Let's just go back to pretending exsang doesn't exist
gusty mirage
@marble hemlock explain yourself
spice spire
No he was pro kingsbane being a lethal poison 
marble hemlock
<@210784027752398848> explain yourself
ye well, it came to me in a haze
dance every minute, deathmark every 2, perfect sync with full 9sec 30% dance+NS bonus during deathmark+exsang, and you garrote as last dance gcd+vanish ns rupture at the end of deathmark for ~25sec of empowered double bleeds
assuming you can overhang snapshot, that is
grizzled jay
hm, interesting
strange python
I'm telling you, drop atrophic poison for crimson tempest and vicious venoms or scent of blood
grizzled jay
still the builder build i am looking at. wondering if going for Elaborate Planning over CttC is better, since having so many CPs means you can just re-apply SnD fairly freely.
marble hemlock
i mean theres a few points you could drop somewhere else
btu yeah
thats the basic idea
itll basically be pretty similar to our current playstyle, only without flag
strange python
still the builder build i am looking at. wondering if going for Elaborate Planni...
I think if you go the shadowdwnce build you really want to be playing for deathmark and then you want exsang
marble hemlock
but if dance gives full 20% NS bonus during its duration (which is very likely) its just too good to pass up, imo
grizzled jay
oh i actually forgot the NS-SD interaction
grizzled jay
moved the points over to NS
marble hemlock
so dance is a 30% amp
and that would make exsang actually decent
since youd compress 18sec garrote/24sec rupture into that amp window
strange python
The question is. Does dance last long enough to juice the dots with exsang and re-apply with NS buff still up
grizzled jay
with VW and VR i think that should be enough energy regen to facilitate this ambush style i like
marble hemlock
you can reapply garrote as the last dance GCD. youd miss out 1-2 ticks but thats fine
vestal wren
you also get ma during dance
strange python
Rupture would have to be the cast from vanish right? Even if you ran subter?
grizzled jay
hopefully Duplicated means 2 debuffs and not Multistrike
marble hemlock
it does
grizzled jay
lit
marble hemlock
and if the additional bleeds dont disappear when deathmark runs out
itll be similar to current 4pc
where you overhang "snapshot" the applications
strange python
It's hard to imagine that isn't gonna be gross if there's any fight with any sort of sludgefist-like damage amp
grizzled jay
i like how there's so many styles you can go now for Sin
talent tree really landed the mark on that
strange python
Sorta. I'm sure by the time it hits live it will be solved
marble hemlock
we'll sim and figure out if any of them are massively better
marble hemlock
and odds are one build will rule them all
strange python
There will be the best build for ST, the best build for m+, and the rest will be meh
marble hemlock
we might have multiple st builds though, one for higher burst windows and one for higher sustained
but odds are, higher burst = higher overall
grizzled jay
you can't not have Carnage and DTB for M+
craggy oak
Does deathmark, apply 2 bleeds per application for the full duration of the cd, i read it as the next garrote and rupture.
grizzled jay
next garrote/rupture is Carnage
it specifies for a reason
it wouldn't be "next" for Deathmark because it includes Lethal Poisons
and you apply Lethal Poisons at a very fast rate as Sin
craggy oak
Right i didnt remember how the ability read
grizzled jay
np
@marble hemlock it would be lit if you could also somehow get Zoldyck in that build
craggy oak
I do hope we can have saved talent builds same way we have saved gear sets, will make swapping mugh easier.
strange python
They've implied that's coming
grizzled jay
lmao
marble hemlock
zoldyck being 3points by itself makes it unplayable
grizzled jay
you can save afaik so many talent builds and swap on the fly
oh its a 3pt? lmao that's ass
marble hemlock
and its behind some awful talents
depending on how vicious venoms is calculated, thats another 2-pointer that provides little dps increase
venom rush is good tho
grizzled jay
do you think TTK is better than Vicious Venoms? in your build you have a pt in VW but we know it'll be moved up the tree, so you could move that pt + TTK into Vicious Venoms
marble hemlock
but you could theoretically drop exsang, atrophic and go 1point cttc to grab venom rush
grizzled jay
that also allows you to drop Doomblade for VR if VR ends up being better dps
marble hemlock
doomblade is a good value point
since you have to play lethal dose
but yeah, theres a few deviations
its just a first tree
grizzled jay
yeah for sure
marble hemlock
dont wanna spend too much time thinking about stuff that gets changed 700 times
grizzled jay
just throwing some ideas out there
vestal wren
still the builder build i am looking at. wondering if going for Elaborate Planni...
probably better to take the versa than ambush cp
grizzled jay
this basically
cursive summit
i like how there's so many styles you can go now for Sin
I just want Kingsbane then my dream build would exist
grizzled jay
probably better to take the versa than ambush cp
that specific build is built around high CP gain, since new Blindside includes Ambush
So in SD, every Ambush can also proc a free Ambush
Which is 3 CP
grizzled jay
very possible. it was just a build i though up for high CP-generation for Sin.
but also looking at it, since Ambush will generate 3CP, probably want to drop Vigor for Deeper since two Ambush is exactly 6CP for it
quaint sequoia
Am I the only one that don't like the talent tree at all?
quaint sequoia
way to many new active spells for me
strange python
cept like removing echoing reprimand from the game - that's a change i'd approve of, for example.
vestal wren
sin tree looks a lot more thought through to me
strange python
I mean - i feel like we need 2-3 more points no matter how i slice it.
vestal wren
the general rogue tree looks like it could see some chnage tho
dry chasm
for legendary ring 291 assasination i put critical haste missives?
strange python
I liked the old trees (were they 31 points?) better.
quaint sequoia
I don't like having ShD on the class tree
strange python
yeah i dont even want that
quaint sequoia
and also having to get MfD for cheat death
strange python
I mean at the end of the day, it's mathematics and such that are gonna tell us what we should play.
And any concession we are willing to make for QOL will come down to just that.
I don't take mfD because my mfD bind is now my covenant bind...but with that freeing up, i will have a bind for it again so...
i mean mfd is areguably the best thing for dailies or whatever
It will be nice to not have stuff tied to your covenant anymore
quaint sequoia
also still mad that shrouded suffocation aint back
quaint sequoia
thats nice
cursive summit
From the looks of the trees currently, with regards to balancing, there could be a few builds running around that are, hopefully, playable
There are a few talents that definitely appear to be a little too strong
Lethal Dose, for example
quaint sequoia
but one build will be best and that is what you gonna play right?
cursive summit
If they're close enough that i'm not gimping myself, i'll play the most fun
I don't play on doing anything that isn't m+ and maybe some bgs
quaint sequoia
lower dps no matter how much is gimping imo
cursive summit
Shouldn't everybody be playing destro and surv then?
quaint sequoia
I don't include changing class in that opinion
cursive summit
unless you're doing world first and top 1000 it doesn't really matter if the dps difference is only a few %
If you're playing a build that is like 20% worse then yeah thats not good
subtle kiln
I'm sure you can setup a build that has minimum button presses. BM hunters already figured one out for themselves
cursive summit
Survivals best ST build with the new trees is literally 2 buttons lmao
Mongoose Bite and Kill Command
quaint sequoia
loved playing FB+DB DH in 8.3 hade like 4 button rotation
and the same rotation for both ST and AoE
exotic ledge
yo i made this opener, what yall think?
white orchid
For PvP?
exotic ledge
yea
exotic ledge
il ask there too
glass tulip
Exsanguinate build ez
silent tinsel
I wish assa had defensive boons for pvp
Sub gets double vanish and putlaw has vanish on cdr
marble hemlock
elusivenss being so far out of reach is definitely gonna be a problem
on a class with no mitigation defensives
fleet whale
Were assassins
the goal is the kill the target before it even hits you
shy dust
elusivenss being so far out of reach is definitely gonna be a problem
I saw that and felt very annoying
Obviously having cheat death and elusiveness is very strong but damn
brave gyro
cheat not being baseline is meh, honestly
i think its worse its so down the line, pretty much forcing all 3 specs to go shadow dance due to commitment
viscid spear
Were assassins
the goal is the kill the target before it even hits you
Well then we need some buffs. When I open from Stealth with Mutilate the target isn't dead. 
main solar
Yeah, I dont think Cheat death needs to be baseline, but its just in a weird spot in the tree
gusty mirage
Although, dance with subterfuge for sin could be interesting in m+
Vanish no longer necessarily only a dps cd is Pog in that situation
It’ll be interesting either way. forcing mfd for cheat is dumb
main solar
Not a fan of being forced into mfd either
I'd almost want to say mfd is a good option for a choice node with Vigor and DS
although the option of being able to play with more than one of those seems fun
storm onyx
Thought MfD would be a side choice, or a split branch, and not that deep in tree, dono
quaint sequoia
yea MfD really should be move to sidebranch, not being a must goto almost
main solar
Just seeing where Cheat death is, its clear it was placed in equivalent spots down the tree with their current alternatives (leeching/elusivness). But mfd was seperated from being on the same tier as vigor and DS and put as the sub version of cold blood.
storm onyx
It is kind of normal, especially with planned 1 min cd. How valuable was MfD without 4piece and flag?; Don't remember picking it over Valor or DS.
main solar
I believe it depended on the content/encounter. Like something with a lot of adds would make its value spike up. I can see it gaining some more value with deathmark and whatever builds we can probably come up with to create big damage windows though. I want to say realz said something about wanting anything to work, like cold blood with rupture (which is another forced extra button that'll probably just be synced up with everything else).
storm onyx
True any usefulness of a talent we feel unnecessarily for a period is dependent on what the environment is. Tho; I thought mfd would be earlier in tree and a ‘choice’. Couse it gains power encounter based. Cold Blood; its an original Assassination and talent; tbf I am happy it is back.
cursive summit
Although, dance with subterfuge for sin could be interesting in m+
Spreading a mega buffed garrote is gunna be juicy in m+
quaint sequoia
Cold Blood just seems boring to have to waste a keybind on
main solar
That's my thought on cold blood as well kakan. Its nostalgic and not necessarily bad, just boring. Wasn't it also just removed as a pvp talent for sub in the last pvp talent revamp?
subtle kiln
you’re likely just going to macro CB to something
main solar
assuming its off the GCD, which it better be for what it does lol
velvet ridge
Are there still the pvp talents? Or those just gone
craggy oak
If it does end up working with stuff like rupture/ ct, i hardly see how thats boreing, massive bleed critting for the duration
Shit seems nuts
main solar
I could see some situational choice on when CB is used though, so not sure it'll just be macroed in and forgotten.
storm onyx
I understand it is stuational, but that doesn't mean its useless; also depends on how it interacts. lately tho i see a lot of us complaining some abilities being useless but they matter a lot in Pvp and sometimes make/break a build. Also if i am racing to down an add, ColdB is very welcome anytime. Asking situational choices ommited creates a shallower game play with less choices to make; thats dull as well
grizzled jay
hotbar bloat for cold blood is unwelcomed tbh
craggy oak
We cry when they take buttons away, we cry when they give buttons
grizzled jay
too many buttons is bad, ask Shamans
brave gyro
hotbar bloat for cold blood is unwelcomed tbh
dont forget shadow dance, gouge etc. etc.
craggy oak
We are the worst
grizzled jay
there's a sweet spot of buttons imo.
storm onyx
well, none of us complained about our bars being bloated before the Ability Prune; remember; and being able to access all our abilities opened up richer game play
grizzled jay
no i hated having a million buttons pre-wod lol
craggy oak
More buttons i think for the majority is the preference
brave gyro
there's a sweet spot of buttons imo.
velvet ridge
That's wild, I would of thought less buttons is the preferred
main solar
There's definitely a sweet spot somewhere inbetween imo
craggy oak
Aslong as your core rotation does not feel bloated, a good example is the uh opener, press alot of things before anything actually starts to happen, as long as it plays fluid, the amount of buttons is somewhat irrelevant
storm onyx
being able to make a choice in a sutiation is richer game play
velvet ridge
I think bfa sin was perfect
grizzled jay
Aslong as your core rotation does not feel bloated, a good example is the uh ope...
you say that but UDK has been begging for their opener to be pruned for expansions now
storm onyx
We cant ask for omittance and then compain about dull game play
craggy oak
you say that but UDK has been begging for their opener to be pruned for expansio...
Ye thats my point
Re reed what i put
I think you miss understood
grizzled jay
Shamans 2004-2010 and then UDK BfA - SL are two perfect examples of how too many buttons is detrimental.
craggy oak
Again, that was my point
velvet ridge
I can't hold all these shocks
brave gyro
Aslong as your core rotation does not feel bloated, a good example is the uh ope...
reminds me during legion, forgot which tier, Sub rogue had something like 19 button opener in 9 sec
grizzled jay
adding Cold Blood is in the same vein as what UDK has right now. a button that does realistically nothing in the long-run of a fight but you have to press because it does some damage.
main solar
I personally just think cold blood isn't interesting enough to warrant an actual button press. Especially not where it is in the tree.
craggy oak
The easy uh fix is take some things off of the gcd
craggy oak
adding Cold Blood is in the same vein as what UDK has right now. a button that d...
How things are implemented is the issue, not the amount of buttons
velvet ridge
I personally just think cold blood isn't interesting enough to warrant an actual...
Big agree. I don't want to press the button
craggy oak
Uh would be fixed with like 2 things off of the gcd
In terms of opener bloat
Uh has many issues
silent tinsel
Who's hype for tiny toxic blade?
brave gyro
I personally just think cold blood isn't interesting enough to warrant an actual...
yeah, i dont mind new buttons too much, but they should matter or be fun
grizzled jay
i love ttb but it being behind a 3-pt zoldycks sucks ass
kinda wish ttb would be moved up and the % damage increase reduced to compensate
and that capstone becomes Exsang
(so we never have to take it)
silent tinsel
That name just makes me think of the tf2 comic where spy pulls out a minature knife
storm onyx
Then bake it to something and forget i guess; and thats just another crit for you. whereas i will keep it visible and use it on where it makes that 1% difference; which we all claim we care
brave gyro
Who's hype for tiny toxic blade?
I think it might only be picked if u are going full execute for certain fights
main solar
You also run into issues where the ability is no longer its own thing, but just rolled into the opener or your big burst along with all your other CDs, and at that point, why it is a seperate button and not just built into the other ability or a passive addon to begin with?
silent tinsel
Being close to sepsis is probably not a councidence
fleet whale
I doubt TTB makes it to live, considering Realz said they are already looking into that talent
brave gyro
You also run into issues where the ability is no longer its own thing, but just ...
one change "to free button space" that I absolutely hated was when they rolled TB into Shiv, still salty about that
velvet ridge
Yeah, I liked tb more
main solar
one change "to free button space" that I absolutely hated was when they rolled T...
Agreed
velvet ridge
Don't understand why though
quaint sequoia
one change "to free button space" that I absolutely hated was when they rolled T...
agree
brave gyro
the main thing is - shiv is fucking useful, but i guess we don't have a choice now for utility because its a dmg spell
storm onyx
It gives a choice for a situation; makes the game play richer, I welcome it.
silent tinsel
The choice is always do more damage
main solar
Toxic blade instead of shiv, and poisoned knife doing the utility portion of shiv was way better, but with the enrage portion, I definitely see why they wanted to add to CD to it
velvet ridge
In m+ the choice is not always more dmg
storm onyx
Forexampe on Prototype, would you have send it on boss opener or kept it for add spawn? considering how it was a dps race before gear lvls cought up with the fight
brave gyro
It gives a choice for a situation; makes the game play richer, I welcome it.
how is restricting player control over when they can use utility vs. doing dmg making the game richer?
storm onyx
how is restricting player control over when they can use utility vs. doing dmg m...
one line up )
They are not restricting us; we restrict ourselves
fleet whale
I've never been a fan of tying utility buttons to dps tbh
didn't like it for frost dks
brave gyro
thats not making it richer - its a lazy way to take control out of players
fleet whale
don't like it for shiv
silent tinsel
Which path makes it more likely to kill boss?
velvet ridge
Controlling the situation
fleet whale
and with tier, it isn't even a choice in M+
grizzled jay
Random maths:
Mutilate: (35% AP) + (35% AP) * 0.5, 2 CP
Envenom (5CP): (16% of Attack power) * 5
So crit Mutilate would give you an additional 52.5% AP + 2 CP, crit Mutilate gives you an additional 80% AP. The 2 CP from both Muts being guaranteed crits is worth another 32% AP for a total of 84.5% AP.
So CB just gets macro'd to Mut and Ambush and pressed on CD without you ever adding it to your keyboard.
storm onyx
how is it taking control off us; if they give you the choice when to use an ability
brave gyro
but you don't - you just use it on CD because otherwise you do less dmg
craggy oak
Random maths:
Mutilate: (35% AP) + (35% AP) * 0.5, 2 CP
Envenom (5CP): (16% of...
Unless it works with bleeds
velvet ridge
What happens if you CB a bleed
brave gyro
if wow was slower paced game - sure, but its not
craggy oak
On st you would cb a rubture, or maybe a large envenom, aoe you would do it on ct
craggy oak
And yet if you read up, apparantly the dev said wanting it to work with everything
fleet whale
yeah, cold blood has historically never worked on dots
grizzled jay
"work with everything" is vague.
having it work on Rupture would be hilariously dumb because that severely messes with rotation
subtle tundra
whats cb
craggy oak
Ye it is, but grants as much optimism as your pesamism with cb
subtle tundra
cockblock?
grizzled jay
Since you'd want to CB Rupture but also in Pandemic Window. So you'd need some dumb WAs to tell you what CP Ruptures to use to make sure you have highest Pandemic Window CB Rupture possible
grizzled jay
And that is gameplay that would be really dumb
craggy oak
Very great
velvet ridge
Cold blood
craggy oak
Since you'd want to CB Rupture but also in Pandemic Window. So you'd need some d...
No you wouldnt
brave gyro
Since you'd want to CB Rupture but also in Pandemic Window. So you'd need some d...
also during Deathmark so its duplicated
toxic locust
what if we could cold blood the carnage dots
lilac haven
We become the aoe class
marble hemlock
would be super broken
and historically stat-snapshotting was removed from almost all abilities, re-adding more is not something id expect to happen
craggy oak
As it is all very up in the air, and we have no idea how its going to work, i think we cant just say its boreing ability
grizzled jay
also during Deathmark so its duplicated
lmao please no man. i don't want 30 WAs for Cold Blood Deathmark Pandemic Rupture windows
marble hemlock
feral has like 1 snapshot left still, and we have exsanguinate snapshotting haste on cast due to how its coded
main solar
Im not a fan of snapshotting at all honestly
brave gyro
lmao please no man. i don't want 30 WAs for Cold Blood Deathmark Pandemic Ruptur...
with on use trinket while the proc trinket is up 
brave gyro
feral has like 1 snapshot left still, and we have exsanguinate snapshotting hast...
Exsang not being off-gcd will forever feel trash 
main solar
Exsang could do with a redesign to make it more intuitive and work how people actually think its works
silent tinsel
What if it just consumed all bleeds in one tick
fleet whale
cold blood snapshotting just sounds like it would end up being terrible imo especially with deathmark
well not terrible damage wise, but we would probably be balanced around those windows and do trash dps in between time
cursive summit
I think it doubling tick rate but not reducing the overall duration would make it decent
grizzled jay
Exsang should be folded into Carnage. Your next Garrote and Rupture are AoE and bleed 100% faster.
craggy oak
Now that would be nuts, i can get behind that
quaint sequoia
just remove exsang alltogether
royal lantern
by itself exsang will not be good anyway sooooo
quaint sequoia
dont make us refresh dots more often
grizzled jay
Now that would be nuts, i can get behind that
wouldn't even be any more nuts than what current aoe specs can do lol
quaint sequoia
rather makes dot duration longer
royal lantern
^
craggy oak
wouldn't even be any more nuts than what current aoe specs can do lol
Relative to sin, a very none aoe spec
royal lantern
why would you want short dots for aoe
cursive summit
I think it doubling tick rate but not reducing the overall duration would make i...
Which is why I suggested this. Same duration double the ticks
ebon notch
What if it just consumed all bleeds in one tick
not that we care but pvp would just be insane
royal lantern
instead of long bleeds so you can do other shit
ebon notch
push a button and just bang them
grizzled jay
why would you want short dots for aoe
it'd be a burst ability not a dps ability
ebon notch
especially if it crit
craggy oak
instead of long bleeds so you can do other shit
What other shit have we g9t to do in aoe
We have no aoe spender outside of ct
Which you dont spam
grizzled jay
sin lacks any burst at all, Carnage being a burst aoe ability would be pretty neat. i mean it basically is now but leaning in to it even harder would help sin a lot i think.
brave gyro
i feel like Cold Blood should be a bit more imaginative
f.e. - hear me out - imagine if u could freeze your dots (basically pause them) and they still tick down but do no dmg,
- then when they expire - boom deals all the bleed dmg at once
fleet whale
@craggy oak swap to outlaw. Just kidding lol
velvet ridge
Like freezing their blood
craggy oak
<@321595718001491968> swap to outlaw. Just kidding lol
?
fleet whale
@craggy oak that's what you would do in aoe. swap to outlaw
quaint sequoia
gief back old combat and I'll gladly go that in aoe
velvet ridge
That rupture spread sub got, why not us
grizzled jay
we got a rup spread
quaint sequoia
loved it when blade flurry was a toggle and not cd
brave gyro
gief back old combat and I'll gladly go that in aoe
i loved it, but at this point its outdated - its only thing was the ramp up dmg, and then you knowing the fights and when to delay
grizzled jay
speaking of Sub, their Shadow Mist grants them an Anima Charged CP, can't wait for ER + Shadow Mist to have some hilarious bugs
craggy oak
loved it when blade flurry was a toggle and not cd
Whats the differnece though, still can get 100% uptime
silent tinsel
Isn't fan of knives spreading poisons the aoe?
brave gyro
speaking of Sub, their Shadow Mist grants them an Anima Charged CP, can't wait f...
or sublaw, their ambushes can give them supercharged
quaint sequoia
Whats the differnece though, still can get 100% uptime
but you gotta press it more than once now
craggy oak
but you gotta press it more than once now
Ok im with you
fleet whale
sublaw probably isn't going live in its current state
velvet ridge
Toggle on, toggle off. 2 presses?
quaint sequoia
loved it that combat rotation was the same for st and aoe just a toggle switch
storm onyx
Whats the differnece though, still can get 100% uptime
Spec is maintenance-extraorinare now
craggy oak
Ye its nice
quaint sequoia
get rid of pistol shot and rtb
brave gyro
get rid of energy, give us mana 
quaint sequoia
give me the basic combat rotation back
craggy oak
You all talking some nonsense, just change/fix ks and we all happy
grizzled jay
give us Death From Above back smile
craggy oak
Ye that would be nice
velvet ridge
Death from below
brave gyro
Honestly, i wished sub was a bit more like Ninja from FF, would make it more unique, compared to Assa,
velvet ridge
Sub feels pretty unique idk mate
quaint sequoia
I want hfc sub back
storm onyx
I still am curious who was the dev decided to swap Assa/Sub dmg profiles back in the day
and talents
and why
brave gyro
I still am curious who was the dev decided to swap Assa/Sub dmg profiles back in...
I am not sure, some years ago I would've said they'll merge them eventually and give us something like "Knifejuggler" - a ranged spec that still uses daggers
viscid spear
@velvet ridge
brave gyro
then they gave hunters focus and it kinda died
quaint sequoia
outlaw should have been made tankspec when they changed it from combat tbh
brave gyro
i honestly don't think it would've been that fun
- imo Survival Hunt should've been made a tank, rather than a mele - first mail armour tank and its literally called SURVIVAL
as for rogues, I was actually concepting a healer spec "Smuggler" where you mix phials and throw them at people and you also can give them stuff etc.
quaint sequoia
also, the new class should have a tankspec based on earth dragonflight
brave gyro
also, the new class should have a tankspec based on earth dragonflight
i think healer / ranged is fine - we've had 0 healer specs/classes since monks, and we've literally never had a ranged class/spec since vanilla
with survival hunters, we literally have less ranged specs than vanilla
quaint sequoia
still no mail tank tho
quaint sequoia
ya that could've worked too
but why not give the new class 3 specs when they have the themes that works for it
brave gyro
puts tinfoil hat on
Maybe they are planning on adding an additional spec to every class in the future
grizzled jay
I still am curious who was the dev decided to swap Assa/Sub dmg profiles back in...
the reasoning is because they decided Subtlety would be a "shadow assassin" while Assassination was the more "brute force" assassin.
so a Sin Rogue is who you would hire to strangle out a politician in broad daylight, while a Sub Rogue is who would sneak into their house at night.
silent tinsel
I don't think anyone gives a cap about envoker
quaint sequoia
healer ranged makes it a dead class for me
fleet whale
i mean, we need more ranged classes
brave gyro
so a Sin Rogue is who you would hire to strangle out a politician in broad dayli...
before i thought they'd make sub focus strictly on poisons, and assa on brute stuff / bleeds
fleet whale
we already have too many melee
toxic locust
it's obviously not gonna appeal to rogue players
brave gyro
we already have too many melee
Rogue Knife-juggler ranged spec (still uses daggers) 
toxic locust
doesn't mean it's a bad addition tho
grizzled jay
well having one spec be only bleeds and one spec be only poisons would be the same flavor but with different effects, makes sense to fold the dot playstyle into one spec
then re-imagine the other
toxic locust
before i thought they'd make sub focus strictly on poisons, and assa on brute s...
i thought it'd be the other way around
sub on stealth and bleeds, sin on poisons and execute
instead they mixed bleeds and poisons for sin and went shadow ninja for sub
grizzled jay
Sin became execute-based in Cata when you would use Backstab over Mut in Execute window. But at that time Sub was dead as a pve spec anyways.
brave gyro
sub on stealth and bleeds, sin on poisons and execute
well, IRL, assassins literally use poisons to secretly kill people, so poisons would've made more sense imo xD
grizzled jay
When they decided to let Sub actually be able to do PvE, they had to essentially re-work it a bit.
silent tinsel
Assa could get an execute called Coup de grace
grizzled jay
our execute is Blindside basically
brave gyro
hope ambush is actually worth casting over Mutilate tho
grizzled jay
please realz make this spec good 
fleet whale
no seal fate is kind of bold
grizzled jay
don't need it if you are generating extreme CPs via Ambush. well, conceptually.
grizzled jay
VM is being moved up the tree
it and Stealth Poisons are likely being swapped according to realz
silent tinsel
I think pvp has a non zero chance of tea being better than dance
fleet whale
well that's good
grizzled jay
with what energy
but also Ambush has been added to Blindside, so every Ambush, including Blindside Ambushes, can proc Blindside.
fleet whale
since it was dumb having stealth poisons gate extra poison application
so we can turn into frost rogues?
grizzled jay
hell yeah
fleet whale
have our procs proc
quaint sequoia
please realz make this spec good <:Prayge:836252681752281119>
oh please god no
grizzled jay
and with this spec every Ambush is 3CP, and with Deeper if you get a double blindside proc you insta 6CP whatever.
makes the opener kinda juicy too. garrote snd ambush ambush 6cp rup
fleet whale
yeah but this build will be the literal definition of feast or famine
kind talon
please realz make this spec good <:Prayge:836252681752281119>
dawg
no cttc
is int
that spec is gonna have insane energy problems and snd problems
grizzled jay
not sure about CP generation with the build yet, not like you can't just move 2 pts over lol
i don't see how it would have more energy problems than other SD Sin builds? I guess the Seli build does have Thistle Tea but I would be shocked if Tea is like 'required' for Sin.
kind talon
SD?
grizzled jay
Shadow Dance
balmy condor
I'm off the deep end, watch as I dive in
I'll never meet the ground
Crash through the surface, where they can't hurt us
We're far from the shallow now
love that song
kind talon
what song is that
balmy condor
shallow by lady gaga
it's an allegory about how fucking deranged this channel becomes
grizzled jay
you would be a Little Monster
there's nothing deranged here going on
visit #subtlety for that
balmy condor
putting all your eggs into a 3cp ambush basket with no seal fate
kind talon
@grizzled jay id probably swap out EP or something for cttc and get rid of subterfuge and shadowrunner for two points in tight spender
balmy condor
seems pretty deranged
subtle tundra
putting all your eggs into a 3cp ambush basket with no seal fate
cry about it
kind talon
also ^ yeah if you get no blindside proc u get cucked
keen tree
kind talon
shadowdance sin could be very good
balmy condor
shadowdance is probably a decent burst button
kind talon
because
balmy condor
but ambush has 0 support on the tree
grizzled jay
seems pretty deranged
you were always blinded by my brilliance. first with hating ER, now this.
kind talon
sepsis and dance would both be similar cds right
toxic locust
but ambush has 0 support on the tree
realz said he was gonna try to fix this, right?
kind talon
but ambush has 0 support on the tree
yeah im thinking about like a sepsis shadowdance type of build
kind talon
realz said he was gonna try to fix this, right?
ye
toxic locust
i'm interested in what subsin would look like
kind talon
dance is 9 sec 30% damage amp + 30% crit
32%
balmy condor
realz said he was gonna try to fix this, right?
I can only comment on what the current tree looks like
toxic locust
I can only comment on what the current tree looks like
based
balmy condor
and the current tree looks like ambush is fucking garbage
grizzled jay
Imp. Ambush and Tight Spender should probably be swapped in places
cause then you can go down left side and get whatever
balmy condor
2
kind talon
to sustain it
grizzled jay
something memey like this, where Tight Spender is Imp. Ambush
kind talon
ok
this could be interesting
if cold blood works with sepsis
you line up shiv sepsis dance with CB
grizzled jay
you could drop Elaborate Planning to get Main, Mangle + Blindside
kind talon
you could
grizzled jay
since half of Mut is nature thanks to Vicious Venoms, I think Maim, Mangle is really strong in that regard
fierce gull
we need always Venomous Wounds, no ?
balmy condor
the more I look at it, the more I think that mutilate actually just does more damage than ambush
grizzled jay
yes but it's being moved up the tree (potentially)
kind talon
we need always Venomous Wounds, no ?
yeah but its getting swapped with stealth poisons or something
grizzled jay
the more I look at it, the more I think that mutilate actually just does more da...
oh not saying my build is good or anything LMAO. i just saw those talents and thought it'd be a neat ST build.
balmy condor
oh not saying my build is good or anything LMAO. i just saw those talents and th...
yeh generator build could be neat
just need a TON of love
kind talon
@balmy condor any update on how CB interacts with bleeds / sepsis
grizzled jay
id run it like this
i think dropping the pt in Elaborate for VR is also better
balmy condor
<@167090536602140682> any update on how CB interacts with bleeds / sepsis
it doesn't
kind talon
unlucky
oak sky
Kill cold blood
kind talon
CB envenom during shiv is still good
kind talon
VR as a standalone pt is quite good
yeah id put a point into VR depending on energy issues
and potentially find a point to put into maim mangle
balmy condor
50
kind talon
ye
grizzled jay
best part of Blindside is Blindside procs can proc Blindside
kind talon
VR is effectively 16% cost reduction
grizzled jay
and its 40% in execute range
kind talon
Blindside is rng but 20% cost reduction
wowee
nah its more than that
but that math hurts my head
grizzled jay
kind talon
oh yeah for sure
especially when ambush hits with both weapons gets me 4 cps and applies poisons twice
grizzled jay
cant wait for someone to just die in PvP because a Sin Rogue got 4 Blindside procs in a row or some shit
kind talon
(it cant)
balmy condor
the poison application is actually really concerning
kind talon
Yeah especially with dragon tempered blades
balmy condor
we're getting a lot of application chance, double the poisons, and poisons are giga juiced
kind talon
Yep
grizzled jay
no way Lethal Dose stays as is either
spice spire
MP gaming 
grizzled jay
cause rn with current build you can get +16% damage increase lol
kind talon
@grizzled jay
grizzled jay
hello
balmy condor
no it wouldn't
toxic locust
why wouldn't it
balmy condor
because stealth is not dance stealth
grizzled jay
it works for NS
toxic locust
but it grants all the benefits of stealth
every time we've asked realz, he says "yes it works"
balmy condor
that's a change from how the effect has worked in the past then
kind talon
Yes
balmy condor
kind talon
yes
grizzled jay
our Lust window would be cracked to hell
kind talon
but @balmy condor to clarify the wording "while stealth is active"
should apply to dance now
via what Realz was saying
balmy condor
to everything?
balmy condor
that's kind of a massive shift from the stealth design of the last decade
but aight
grizzled jay
Shadow Dance says it 'grants all combat benefits of stealth'
that means all the "during stealth" talents
kind talon
it already says that
grizzled jay
ye i know
kind talon
and doesnt work with current effects
grizzled jay
just clarifying why it should work
kind talon
that have this wording
grizzled jay
it works with stuff like NS
kind talon
but realz explicity said it should work now in DF
grizzled jay
think they special code NS though
toxic locust
definitely seems intentional
balmy condor
NS literally the only thing that works right now
toxic locust
for a SD build
balmy condor
^
kind talon
balmy condor
yeh
kind talon
but obviously that is getting changed because DF NS is
and that is confirmed to work with dance
and everything else (cto etc) Realz said should work with dance
which means imo dance sin could be extremely potent
balmy condor
if "while stealth is active" now means "during dance" then everything is cracked to hell and we always take dance
balmy condor
literally makes dance stronger than current vendetta, with half the cooldown
kind talon
100%
balmy condor
kind talon
well
grizzled jay
based rogue designn
storm onyx
in Wrath, poison dmg had gotten very powerful; portion of rogues and other ppl (pvp) complained big time due to 'passive dmg' and no control, no flavor, they toned it down. I dont thing they will let poisons get that strong again like that
kind talon
we dont know what the cd of dance will be
balmy condor
1 min
grizzled jay
base SD will always be 1m for Sub unless they increase it baseline and add CD reduction to the SD talent for Sub but then that makes the SD talent actually mandatory which is what they want to avoid
kind talon
yeah but different talents have diff cds for diff specs
so unless its gonna be 1min for all 3 specs
there is precedent for it changing
idk
grizzled jay
its in the base tree. is there an ability that has diff cd from the base tree on a spec-by-spec basis?
kind talon
mfd
grizzled jay
mfd says 1m as well on all 3 unless wowhead is wrong
toxic locust
it's great when the dev talks so much that i can actually just quote him
subtle tundra
full omega pepega garrote spam er no seal fate
kind talon
yes sir
balmy condor
mfd says 1m as well on all 3 unless wowhead is wrong
it's 30 seconds on sin for 2 expansions now
kind talon
full omega pepega garrote spam er no seal fate
!mute @subtle tundra 3days
kind talon
im unable to cope
gusty mirage
kind talon
<a:FeelsWeirdManS:585739279456665607>
i apologize for the shitposting
lucid birch
<a:FeelsWeirdManS:585739279456665607>
kind talon
but hello oxi its been a while how are you
grizzled jay
oxi how does it feel that your look was taken by Jayce from Arcane so now everyone thinks you have a Jayce avatar
balmy condor
gusty mirage
oxi how does it feel that your look was taken by Jayce from Arcane so now everyo...
Riot designed a character after me?
toxic locust
<:MonkaS:359716668592750592>
grizzled jay
storm onyx
it's 30 seconds on sin for 2 expansions now
ah yea, the tree says 1 min tho; guess it is an 'assumption' thing by whom prepared it. would be meep if it slit through then
grizzled jay
balmy condor
… that doesn’t look anything like me
hey, he's got....hair.... and is male
grizzled jay
even stronger?
make Lethal Dose 2/4% 
balmy condor
that's close
grizzled jay
32% damage increase
gusty mirage
that's close
Does that mean we can finally get married?
grizzled jay
whispyr is already in a committed relationship with Excel
gusty mirage
balmy condor
sorry marrying another man would devalue the sanctity of marriage
gusty mirage
I can change
balmy condor
royal lantern
ill ship it
balmy condor
ill ship it
you can be the minuwuster
grizzled jay
are you inviting me and talto
balmy condor
sure
grizzled jay
ty
balmy condor
talto is tmb's significant other
kind talon
<:MonkaS:359716668592750592>
yeah i dont think i realized how stealth poisons, MA and sepsis would interact with a shadowdance build when i asked him that
like
gusty mirage
Singles only, sorry. We have a strict singles only orgy for the reception.
kind talon
jesus
lucid birch
Omw
balmy condor
yeah i dont think i realized how stealth poisons, MA and sepsis would interact w...
its' okay I don't think he realized it either
kind talon
its' okay I don't think he realized it either
yeah definitely not
we must warn him of the danger
grizzled jay
yeah i dont think i realized how stealth poisons, MA and sepsis would interact w...
i think he himself didn't realize the potential power in that talent either lol. it might just get deleted tbqh
balmy condor
I was under the impression that stealth would work the same way it has since cata
my bad
grizzled jay
same as it ever was
kind talon
i mean the stealth poisons
part
is insane
just that is enough
if you add MA too
grizzled jay
kind talon
subtle tundra
well, they either make shadow dance not work like that or gut every talent that works with stealth
grizzled jay
if you add MA too
wonder if NS will keep its current snapshotting and you can snapshot rupture with NS SD lmao
balmy condor
making shadow dance not work like that is the natural choice
grizzled jay
gimme that perma +20% damage on rupture
balmy condor
because that's how it currently works
kind talon
??
balmy condor
having over 3500 io should be considered a mental disability
spice spire
i can get 0 crit from gear
You can get 0 bitches too
subtle tundra
cream about it
spice spire
I rn
balmy condor
varas wants to play no seal fate 0 crit in keys
kind talon
oh you will definitely generate a lot of combo points
if you do that
like a lot of them
subtle tundra
1 cp Foks in aoe broke me
balmy condor
because his brain tumor has expanded to the size of a grape and is now pushing in onto his left side of his brain, severely limiting any logical thought process
kind talon
6 second cd what do u do for the other 6 seconds
spice spire
Spreading poisons well I see
kind talon
mut?
subtle tundra
y'all can keep crying
subtle tundra
y'all just blind from the greatness
balmy condor
yeah that's the word
lucid birch
y'all just blind from the greatness
balmy condor
I have not met anyone over 3500 who is sane
spice spire
Not even a certain unaffiliated outlaw rogue?
subtle tundra
i can only see your cries
violet jackal
i'd have over 3500 if i got invited 
burnt latch
blas0n said that u cant greed dps if u dont have 3.5k io
so
get fucked boys imma parse
fallow canopy
what kind of degenerate goes 3.5k io with only sin
burnt latch
certified gamers only
fallow canopy
certified gamers only
who's the certifier?
burnt latch
@subtle tundra
marble hemlock
I have not met anyone over 3500 who is sane
youre insane
burnt latch
no shot
kind talon
balmy condor
seli did you hear
burnt latch
kind talon
blas0n said that u cant greed dps if u dont have 3.5k io
that guy goes hard
balmy condor
look what i got today
an example that my comment is accurate?
kind talon
ebon notch
an example that my comment is accurate?
suck my ass
ebon notch
<@124465215826821120> guess how much i lvoe keystones
keystone lover
kind talon
yeah bro
@balmy condor do you have any trinket predictions for assa
and do u think the haste proc rings from mechagon might be good?
balmy condor
for season 4?
balmy condor
mechagon rings are strong
kind talon
you'd lose CoS ring and then you'd need to make Duskwalker chest
blazing totem
oh please not the mechagon ring grind again...
kind talon
and then put unity somewhere interesting idk where
balmy condor
you'd lose CoS ring and then you'd need to make Duskwalker chest
i mean yeh, but mechagon rings are way stronger than cos ring
I think that's fine
balmy condor
fusion amp prolly good, hateful chain prolly good, eye of command isn't in the pool
kind talon
its not?
balmy condor
well yeh, if all the effects work then dance is stronger than vendetta with a 1 min cd
marble hemlock
seli ur forgetting
i know
balmy condor
you get 30% damage, and 30% crit, and all your hits apply poisons, and it lines up, and you get empowered garrotes, and you get ambush (if it gets buffed), and you get amp poison juice, and it fits with shiv 9 seconds to 9 seconds
like
if those all work
dance is the strongest cooldown we have
fuck a deathmark
strange python
you guys talking about sin in 10.0?
balmy condor
yes
slow tulip
i hope dragonflight will be better than SL :))))))
strange python
I wish dance was just in the sub tree then
blazing totem
tbh I hate dance creeping into sin and outlaw
balmy condor
i hope dragonflight will be better than SL :))))))
the talents look interesting, professions look good, I'm concerned about everything else
toxic locust
tbh I hate dance creeping into sin and outlaw
i love it
strange python
I hope the pvp gear thing works too
Because i've sat on like 15,000 honor all xpac long
ebon notch
fuck a deathmark
could we viably talent out of it
strange python
like it's fun to build up a powerful pvp set you know
blazing totem
if they are giving dance to everyone, they should let us keep shiv. I am still salty
balmy condor
could we viably talent out of it
nah
slow tulip
the talents look interesting, professions look good, I'm concerned about everyth...
they are doing usually fine with the raids, but now they're launching with only 4 new M+ dungeons, so maybe it will lack content at start atleast
strange python
Dance is just a stupid cooldown kinda...to me...
Like you're "in stealth" but you're not in stealth...
And then you get a special action bar...that you pretty much miror to your actual action bar because nothing really changes.
marble hemlock
dance is the strongest cooldown we have
but... thistletea?
kind talon
ye
blazing totem
but... thistletea?
thistletea
balmy condor
I knew about mechagon and the wod dungeons
but wtf
aight well then I need to add more items to my sim
strange python
I think there was like some open poll for that Whyspyr
balmy condor
strange python
and like the community voted or something
balmy condor
upper kara is top with less mobs and a shit mini boss
kind talon
:(
balmy condor
lower kara is DoS
grizzled jay
Tea having 3 charges is interesting. Wonder the best usage for Sin.
strange python
Tea having 3 charges is interesting. Wonder the best usage for Sin.
run out, use...repeat
blazing totem
Tea having 3 charges is interesting. Wonder the best usage for Sin.
best usage is avoiding it on talent tree
grizzled jay
idk you can go Tea in place of 1 point in Lethality seems worth
strange python
like honestly - to me - sin needed one thing...
Crimson Tempest... If the dot already exists on the thing it is applied to, it does x bonus damage instead.
storm onyx
Energy conserve/refund talents work quite good in early expansions; could be good, its 400 energy in 1 min
grizzled jay
especially when paired with SD, allows a lot of Ambushes without being energy starved for finishers
(or Muts if Mut just ends up doing more than Ambush lmao)
kind talon
mut would just be
way more
ambush doesnt apply poisons twice
and we have 100% poison chance in SD
grizzled jay
oh ye i guess amp makes you want to press it at least once
kind talon
Imagine if there’s a legendary item that gives you more talent points
That would be sick
grizzled jay
imagine there's a leggo that lets us use all 3 lethal poisons
balmy condor
there aren't any legos in df
grizzled jay
kind talon
oh
kind talon
no borrowed power?
balmy condor
and that's it
kind talon
kind talon
and that's it
wait would eye of command be good in s4 tho
idk if it was a good trinket
kind talon
legion rings?
main solar
Have they said anything about whether you'll be able to loot items from SL M zeroes and upgrade them? or just the dungeons in the key rotation?
storm onyx
legion rings?
Mechagon rings with worn set bonuses
storm onyx
Have they said anything about whether you'll be able to loot items from SL M zer...
I have no idea, but if they are out of M+ pool, i doubt they would yield pieces which can be upgraded in M+ system
main solar
gotta compare that mechagon ring set to TW court ring too
fleet whale
Wow i was just looking the hunter trees
there is a major disconnect from that compared to the rogue ones lol
toxic locust
yea it's sad
balmy condor
developer lottery
fleet whale
They made the sylvanas leggo bow effect and death chakrams hunter talents, lmao
no wild spirits
grizzled jay
we should get Fangs of the Father 2pc as a talent
fleet whale
wouldn't be a bad idea but idk what it would replace
grizzled jay
TTB lmao
fleet whale
maybe dance since I don't really like dance being a class wide talent
balmy condor
based
fleet whale
i mean, fangs of the father was good for all three specs
so it would make more sense in the general tree
grizzled jay
who care about the other 2 specs
fleet whale
I would love to see Kingsbane back but i guess with sepsis there it's redundant
since sepsis is basically reverse kingsbane
actually Cold Blood could work nice with Sepsis
time cold blood for the big burst at the end since that part actually isn't a dot
shadow tulip
actually Cold Blood could work nice with Sepsis
time cold blood for the big burs...
I doubt it would work with the final tick of Sepsis.
fleet whale
final "tick" of sepsis isn't a tick though
it's like an attack, it's why you get an extra cp if the final part crits
balmy condor
Idk how the timing would work on that
Cause it’s still attached to sepsis as a cast
So you would have to cold blood before sepsis
fleet whale
yes but sepsis is weird
balmy condor
But sepsis wouldn’t consume it
shadow tulip
That would work on stuff like envenom or ambush
They would say it's unintentional and fix it, even if it interacted with sepsis
fleet whale
idk if it would be unintentional though
like i said, the last part of sepsis isn't a dot
shadow tulip
Yea
Just like how the final tick of Lifebloom isn't a hot either
Still connected to lifebloom
prisma gorge
so does ass never eeven ambush?
prisma gorge
interesting
bleak sky
so does ass never eeven ambush?
Sin does ambush, it's just build dependent
quaint sequoia
they should just make mut do extra dmg in stealth and remove ambush
don't really see why have two diffrent spells
shadow tulip
they should just make mut do extra dmg in stealth and remove ambush
What about blindside KEKW
gusty mirage
delete Exsang
say it again a few times pls
quaint sequoia
just make it proc a stealh mut
grizzled jay
Blindside having Ambush added to it is amazing