assassination

[spice spire]

Shrouded suffocation, AKA the goat?

[royal lantern]

Garrote did more dmg out of stealtz and gave more cp

[spice spire]

What whispyr said.

[balmy condor]

Basically take subterfuge, triple the number, and give it 2 extra cp

That’s shrouded

[marble hemlock]

The damage was obviously very good, but it was also just very comfortable to do a triple garrote opener and have maximum combo points.

[limber lion]

Shrouded Suffocation is possibly most Assa rogues favorite trait. Very fun

[royal lantern]

The cp part made it feel really good allready, the dmg part gave you more frontloaded aoe dmg, wich is something assassinatio always really struggled with for dungeons

[sharp falcon]

I reviewed all BFA effects and modded versions that needed it to fit them into the new trees, among those that I personally felt were good candidates for it. But Shrouded Suffocation seemed almost expected, and obviously it isn't there. What about it was the most compelling?

[royal lantern]

But yeha, the CP was bis

[subtle kiln]

SS was so much fun to play with

[balmy condor]

The CP for sure

[sharp falcon]

AoE? IDGI

[balmy condor]

Currently opening with 3 garrotes means your at 3cp and you need to generate again

[lucid birch]

who is this

[balmy condor]

Which is super slow

[spice spire]

Dev

[marble hemlock]

The CP could be incorporated into baseline garrote, by having it generate additional CP for every garrote that is present, or simply add it to improved garrote instead. The damage itself was nice, but mostly because it worked well with other rental powers that we don't have with Dragonflight.

[royal lantern]

Going garrote 3x-> crimson tempest or rupture made the dungeon flow worlda better

[balmy condor]

With shrouded you got to 6 and could insta slam a CT

Really helped open from stealth

[fleet anchor]

The most compelling part about SS was the CP generation tbh and the fact that the amp was what Subterfuge should have been but never quite lived up to.

[limber lion]

Also made vanish into a strong dps cooldown, for better or for worse.

[marble hemlock]

This is why I never liked it. I like current vanish more, where you can use it to avoid a targeted mechanic or hold it for the silence

[fleet anchor]

Since Subterfuge is now being slimmed down to JUST the post-Stealth usage component

[ebon notch]

I like this Dev he a homie

[balmy condor]

Yeah vanish has had a bit of an identity crisis where it’s either strong offensively or the talent rows that augment stealth just didn’t do anything

[fleet anchor]

I think there's very much a place for SS existing

[sharp falcon]

Ok, ty

[bleak sky]

[lucid birch]

The last dev (I pinged) was not as friendly

[fleet anchor]

Since it wouldn't even double up with Subterfuge effect as it used to

[lucid birch]

[gloomy knoll]

shrouded would be fun af

[bleak sky]

Do not ping this dev we like him

[marble hemlock]

The last dev talked to skip before you pinged him.

[fleet anchor]

The nice thing is it actually made Subterfuge feel good even on ST as well

[lucid birch]

I will refrain my king

[ebon notch]

[balmy condor]

He’s actually incredibly friendly you’re just an idiot

[fleet anchor]

Because the CP gen made double Garrote actually useful in the opener

[kind talon]

[lucid birch]

Yeah I know lol

[sharp falcon]

I will have to think about it more, but gut reaction is to put SS in the void where VW used to live

[ebon notch]

You would double garrote with SS right?

[sharp falcon]

just the Combo generation, probably not the damage

[balmy condor]

Depends on the damage

[marble hemlock]

Would definitely fit in there pretty well, yeah. Just don't bring Echoing Blades back if at all possible

[balmy condor]

Wrong take

[glossy pelican]

I just hit 55, what’s the skill or talent I need to choose for SnD to keep procing when I use enevenom

[balmy condor]

Echoing good

Aoe good

[marble hemlock]

no

[balmy condor]

Cut to the chase

[marble hemlock]

scent fills the same role

[fleet anchor]

Since you could open with double Garrote with Subterfuge for max CP and a pandemic Garrote right away, which was a nice synergy. Without SS it's not worth doing that because just the pandemic alone + 1 CP isn't efficient enough.

[glossy pelican]

Thank you

[marble hemlock]

echoing made scent useless

[spice spire]

This mf likes echoing reprimand

[bleak sky]

You learn it at 56 or 57

[spice spire]

Ong

[glossy pelican]

Ohhh shit, I thought it was 55. Damnit

[balmy condor]

Echoing balls in your mouth get dunked on

[ebon notch]

If that aoe rupture CD could be brought down a bit so we actually had something from pack to pack, even if you made it a bit weaker that would be a vibe

[thorn fjord]

Boo him

[spice spire]

Bro?

[sharp falcon]

Hey, be nice to ER pals, they're Rogues too

[ebon notch]

Not sure about others opinion of it

[fleet anchor]

I actually really didn't like Echoing Blades much but it was a necessary evil in the context of BfA

[kind talon]

they aren't assa rogues

[zinc frost]

I take a break and come back to the possibility of SS coming back. Life is good

[spice spire]

Not here
We meme 🙂

[limber lion]

Gar gar gar ct vanish gar gar gar rup

I'm creaming out of my mind

[thorn fjord]

[subtle kiln]

haha

[fleet anchor]

Poisoned Knife trait I liked much better than Echoing Blades if I'm honest

[marble hemlock]

Kyrians deserve a certain level of... skepticism.

[fleet anchor]

Much much better

[balmy condor]

Garet 1 garet 2 garet 3

[ebon notch]

GARRET ONE GARRET TWO GARRET THREE

[balmy condor]

Fok fok

Vendetta

[ebon notch]

Fk you whisp

[balmy condor]

Then you ct

[cursive orchid]

Scent with carnage RUP on all then 9 vanish garotes with dance and night stalker

[fleet anchor]

PK trait from Legion was very nice

[kind talon]

garret carnage garret rupture fok fok ct

[gusty kestrel]

can u just link the man himself

when ure talking about him

[royal lantern]

@balmy condor just copy the link from offtopic pins lmao

[gusty kestrel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-wINzrcgMM

[ebon notch]

@sharp falcon can we remove tiny toxic blade or w.e the fuck it's called and put something else in?

[marble hemlock]

best legion trait was 2sec evasion after shadowstep

[fleet anchor]

And PK felt a lot more Rogue-y than EB

[ebon notch]

Even sepsis unity or smth

[indigo mulch]

I would love to have the same effect as our tier set has right now but affect vanish instead. So we can vanish and garrote a lot more often.

[kind talon]

y0 be nice to ttb

[ebon notch]

It's fucking garbanzo

I'd rather tiny toxic shank myself

[subtle kiln]

wtb catlikereflexes

[marble hemlock]

yeah for sure, but we could also boost it with relics and stuff, echo was just very bland, had zero interaction with any rogue or assa-scaling and was basically just a "spam fok over using CP and stack crit to hell". very boring trait

obviously very powerful too

[fleet anchor]

TTB is fine

[balmy condor]

It’s fucking over BOOP

[sharp falcon]

Those spots are very premium and I don't want to commit to anything there right now. But if what you're saying is, "Hey, that TTB is kinda meh", that's good to know

[fleet anchor]

It just didn't compete with more flashy legendaries but in a vacuum there wasn't really much wrong with it

[marble hemlock]

but i liked bfa s1 scent gameplay much more than s2/3/4 echoing one, even though they filled teh same niche of being an aoe-only trait that was hugely useful for m+ but useless on singletarget

[warm parcel]

I have one question if I may ask; where is our water walk via sprint

[limber lion]

Wtf I'm actually so hyped for the talent tree and Dragonflight now

Fuck.

[marble hemlock]

thats a sub only thing weak

or a glyph in mop

[bleak sky]

We can prob get a glyph for that

Doesn't need to be a talent

[warm parcel]

Cmon man we getting it back as a glyph in wrath real soon

It wasnt sub only

[sharp falcon]

you found the prune, I've been exposed

[gusty kestrel]

I have a question @balmy condor

[marble hemlock]

how are the rivendare runs going

[warm parcel]

10 runs in

[subtle kiln]

lol

[warm parcel]

no mount yet

[fleet anchor]

Catlike Reflexes or riot honestly.

[slow needle]

To be honest I find it pretty difficult to justify the 4 points into Zoldycks as is unless Execute becomes absolutely giga for a fight compared to the other options. Never mind TTB.

[ebon notch]

Personally I think there are better more interactive options. The rest is up to you.

[balmy condor]

I mean I just think it's awkward to have shiv go from utility to -> damage to -> BIG damage

[bleak sky]

That's the point of zoldycks, being an execute amp

[balmy condor]

we've clowned on shiv enough over the years for being both utility and damage and the baseline damage is kinda suspicious

[fleet anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-reflex-catch-gif-5057564

[limber lion]

I still think TB and Shiv should be their own things.

[balmy condor]

seeing "oh it does 500% more now GG"

is just weird

[sharp falcon]

If I handed you the pencil for the next 30 seconds, what would you scribble in that spot, out of curiousity?

[limber lion]

TB for damage, Shiv for utility.

[balmy condor]

yes mr tisumi

[kind talon]

@ebon notch

you got 30 seconds

[bleak sky]

Daps don't fuck it up for us

[ebon notch]

IM THINKING HOLD ON

[limber lion]

Time's running out.

[fleet anchor]

That's fair. But if we're gonna be mashing it on CD anyway... 😛

[gusty kestrel]

I forgot my question

[bleak sky]

Do not fuck it up I repeat do not fumble the money

[slow needle]

Did someone delete their own venom rush comment or did a mod slap that down?

[austere steppe]

Kingsbane

[ebon notch]

Honestly probably grudge match or smth, our current 2 pc

[worn panther]

KINGSBANE HELL YEAH

[kind talon]

dont give him the answer zymeth

[ebon notch]

Would go sick with aoe bleeds

[marble hemlock]

nice, we can blame daps if we get tiny toxic blades, cause he cant come up with something better.

[kind talon]

(the answer is kingsbane)

[indigo mulch]

LOL

[marble hemlock]

[ebon notch]

But we have to sacrifice something for it

[sharp falcon]

this guy says there are better more interactive options like he's got answers READY, TONS of em

[balmy condor]

I like you realz

you fit right in

[bleak sky]

AYO I REALLY LIKE REALX

[limber lion]

What a g

[ebon notch]

Fucks sake

[marble hemlock]

might as well rename now daps

[worn panther]

This dev is really winning it hah

[kind talon]

daps just got clowned on

[subtle kiln]

@sharp falcon the blue names are sketchy

[marble hemlock]

its over

[balmy condor]

clowning on daps is a time honored #assassination tradition

[bleak sky]

clowning on daps = a good one in my books

[royal lantern]

Gg dads, ttb is your fault now

[ebon notch]

WHO ARE WE MEMEING

[royal lantern]

Your legacy

[slow needle]

*Howling Alien People.

[bleak sky]

You you clown 🤡🤡🤡🤡

[ebon notch]

HAHA FUNNY MAN WHERE HE GO

[kind talon]

where is daps

[sharp falcon]

Kingsbane is really interesting, there's a reason it wasn't included despite wanting a "best of all-time WoW rogue" feel... will reconsider

[ebon notch]

I personally wanted duskwalkers somewhere

[slow needle]

Would you be willing to share the reason?

[gusty kestrel]

@sharp falcon I'm supposed to ask what do u think about agonizing poison

[ebon notch]

1 min vendetta was a vibe

[royal lantern]

What was the reason? Im curious now

[bleak sky]

You get 1:30 vendetta now with neat double bleeds, I think that's a good enough change from dusk

[spice spire]

Yo @balmy condor pin?

[toxic locust]

realz, i just want to say amazing job on these trees

easily my favorite of all the class trees shown so far

[lucid birch]

Yo @balmy condor pin dn

[ebon notch]

It's 2 mins no?

[sharp falcon]

the generic damage amp one?

[gusty kestrel]

ye

[bleak sky]

Could be 2 min, I'm not yet dialed in on the numbers

[lucid birch]

All me

[gusty kestrel]

(not my idea but the one that wanted to ask cannot speak in here :( )

[ebon notch]

@gusty mirage help they're shitting on me

[marble hemlock]

agonizing poison instead of ttb, then combine it with double lethal poisons

[sharp falcon]

My opinion is just one, but Agonizing seems a bit bland

[gusty kestrel]

also please remove venom rush

[warm parcel]

it sucks

never agonizing again

[bleak sky]

Venom rush is fine though?

[warm parcel]

Not only is it bland

It feels restrictive

[bleak sky]

Sure boring but it's fine?

[marble hemlock]

i think for raids the biggest concern was the low procrate, and poison bomb being such a big part of our opener DPS in combination with it. it was really nice in an m+ environment since you could just switch from deadly poison in aoe, to AP in single-target and fill both niches very well with a very thematic swap of poisons

[royal lantern]

Venom rush is the most bland talent possible

[worn panther]

I'm with ma popcorn waitin for the reason behind the Kingsbane's pruning

[royal lantern]

Its litearlly "mutilate costs a bit less energy"

[fleet anchor]

Venom Rush is kinda boring but surprisingly decent

[ebon notch]

I wanna be able to talent out of fok

Fok that spell

[bleak sky]

Not all talents need to be super high flavor imho

[royal lantern]

Is it bad? Eh, like always depeens on tuning, but its just really fking Bland

[toxic locust]

honestly i really do want to see kingsbane back, it's the only thing i felt was "missing"

[bleak sky]

It's fine to have bland but good talents

[kind talon]

i actually love the blindside change though

[fleet anchor]

But it would definitely be something I'd be willing to cut to make space 😛

[ebon notch]

Mmm spicy talents

[lucid birch]

I like the talent trees rn good medium between current talents and old 5 point useless trees

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, thats really the only reason i like agonizing. having an easy way to swap from a singletarget to aoe "build" in this way was pretty nice, especially as assassination is typically very restricted in its build oportunities and has to go for either one of them, but never managed to fill both at the same time

[fleet anchor]

Maim, Mangle needs to increase Ambush damage given how it sets up Blindside in the tree, imo 🙂

[sharp falcon]

every spec is supposed to have a 'reason' to make a stealth/Dance type build, even if it's not the most OP thing in the world. FWIW I think Assassin's version is currently lacking, and needs a bit more incentive. But yeah, the blindside change is part of that

[marble hemlock]

doomblade as well imo. the synergy potential of blindside, the ambush talent in the class tree, and a few other procs that trigger from stealth abilities for example

[limber lion]

I really like the talent tree if we move VW higher and replace the old trait with SS CP gain. So good

[fleet anchor]

I'd probably argue everything in the tree that says "Mutilate"

Should work with Ambush

[marble hemlock]

did you see my builder tree koji?

[indigo mulch]

Is there any specific reason why deathspike didn't show up? I really enjoyed playing Deathspike. Sepsis was always so clunky to play. 😦

[gusty kestrel]

why does everyone like sbs so much

[limber lion]

Don't necessarily want to overwork the Dev with every single talent and point, we're already getting tons

[toxic locust]

sbs didn't really interact with anything else tbh

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jaaf4/9b2b0bb84b.jpg

[fleet anchor]

Guess mostly Venom Rush and Doomblade

[subtle kiln]

range rogue syndrome

[bleak sky]

Good generator, good sounds, that's it

[balmy condor]

I'll take a crack at it even tho no one asked. I think that instead of the ttb, there should be something that can still be poison related like an on-use poison bomb effect, or a buff to crimson tempest, etc. The right side of the tree is very powerful with carnage as an aoe m+ option, but while zoldyck is also a powerful m+ option, the stuff around it isn't compelling. If there were something in ttb's place as a capstone it could create a dynamic choice between the right side of a bleed burst cooldown, and the left side of a poison based cooldown.

I personally also enjoy making poison ticks explode in a small aoe for a duration, or adding some sort of interaction between bleed ticks on a poisoned enemy giving extra damage, something along those lines. You could also do something fok related similar to poisoned knives from legion (https://www.wowhead.com/spell=192376/poison-knives). Fok kinda doesn't do a lot (although I do recognize the talents added to buff it), and poison knives added a good bit of sustained aoe damage. Could also make it consume poison ticks instantly, turn it into vein ripper the torghast power, etc etc

[toxic locust]

while i'm not the biggest fan of sepsis and i liked flag more, i can see why it's here over sbs

[marble hemlock]

if ambush worked on vicious venoms/doomblade/venomrush

thatd be fire

[royal lantern]

Fast aoe CP generation with resets go brrrrr

[fleet anchor]

The issue we always have eventually is that Mutilate ends up being too good compared to Ambush and we stop using Ambush

Since it has fewer interactions

[kind talon]

as long as improved garrote exists, there is definitely a place in m+ and aoe content for shadowdance

[bleak sky]

And isn't sbs implementation super shaky under the hood?

[ebon notch]

Longer than 30 seconds L

[fleet anchor]

Nice 😄

[bleak sky]

Makes sense to get rid of it if that's the case

[marble hemlock]

it is man

i wanna play that, lowkey

[kind talon]

it would also just get better if you added those shrouded changes talked about earlier

[marble hemlock]

get free ambush casts to proc find weakness and keep it up

get big mutilates that get a bunch of extra bleed/poison damage from the assa talents

[balmy condor]

I have to say shadow dance in m+ with garrote spamming interests me

[marble hemlock]

dance into 9 garrote tab targeting

[toxic locust]

shadow dance builds sound so fun for sin and outlaw

[worn panther]

Hmm.. .How would Vein Ripper feel as a last point talent? it's for sure hella interesting in both scenarios

[ebon notch]

Would be sick to mitigate the downtime from the bleed spread talent

[fleet anchor]

As a note

[warm parcel]

Actually another question I have. Have you thought of the old blade twisting from wod

[kind talon]

seems reaaaaally good

[fleet anchor]

It is currently the Subterfuge talent itself in live WoW that enabled multi-Garrote. Since it's what disables the cooldown.

I don't see anything like that in the current tree

[marble hemlock]

its in imp garrote now

[fleet anchor]

Oh I see

[warm parcel]

Twisting advancing bleeds with assassination could be an interesting and interactive angle

[fleet anchor]

Sorry I missed that somehow

[marble hemlock]

Poison Vial (30 sec cooldown): You will throw a Poison Vial at the next Enemy you cast Envenom on. The toxic fumes deal X nature damage each second for 9 seconds to enemies in the area. Enemies affected by Poison Vial take 20% extra damage for each bleed affecting them.

[royal lantern]

Well, time for bed @balmy condor pls some pin updates for tomorrow when i wake up :

[subtle kiln]

gn

[fleet anchor]

I mean I think a simple solution to the TTB question is to just Grudge Match it up and allow the Shiv bonus to be AoE or something, maybe slightly improved also.

The AoE effect was pretty welcome

Since that side of the tree is already kinda the AoE side with CT and the Shiv side, having AoE Shiv talent doesn't seem like a stretch

[sharp falcon]

assuming there are talents for it and someone takes those talents, this should definitely not always be true in a Dragonflight world. If someone wants to juice their Ambush to surpass their Mutilate, that should be doable. Base tuning matters as well, which is TBD

[marble hemlock]

im not sure if id prefer a more single-target option instead of ttb, or another aoe option that is different in design to carnage to be more bursty for example, so youd be choosing between either side of the tree depending on which ultimate talent youd want

[fleet whale]

Watch tiny toxic blades ends up simming the best
the reaction would be really funny if that ended up being the case lol

[balmy condor]

anything can sim the best with enough juice, doesn't mean it should though

[marble hemlock]

if vaughn can make shiv be a dps increase for outlaw, im sure whispyr can make ttb bis for assa

[indigo mulch]

TTB dosent seam fun to press though. That's the only issue i have with it. All the talents down there seams really cool and does something unique, but TTB is just more dmg and no energy cost.

[balmy condor]

I refuse to study those dark arts

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I think the problem is just that either it causes things to become dead--e.g. if your build is Ambush-centric, Maim, Mangle will actually be less use. Doomblade stops doing anything, Venom Rush becomes much weaker, etc.

Whereas in the class tree there's a lot of "attacks that generate combo points" catch all that impact everything.

[marble hemlock]

this could simply be a choice-talent where you pick doomblade to either work with ambush or mutilate. or just catch-all, like you said. depending on what the goal is, really.

[tidal gorge]

Add ambush on Zoldyck too IMO. That would fit super thematically with blindside to make an execute focused build

[fleet whale]

yeah there needs to be some more ambush interaction

[marble hemlock]

but it definitely felt very restricting at times when an azerite trait or conduit would only work with one ability and not all the choices that were available at the time. its one of the reasons why despite ambush making a return for assa in SL, it was never actually worth to use the button unless it was a free-cast from blindside.

[fleet anchor]

Yeah this is not a bad idea either

[balmy condor]

that was kinda the issue with blindside this expansion too, it was nice to have free gcds but after a while you could get the energy from other places and the draw of "free damage here" was just overshadowed by other stronger choices later on

[marble hemlock]

i.e. playing doomblade in SoD and never using ambush as it didnt work with the legendary and generated fewer CP

[balmy condor]

nothing to prop up ambush in the long run

[fleet whale]

it's also nice that we get gouge again

[marble hemlock]

best example would always be sepsis proccing a "free" stealth-ability cast and none of the specs would actually use it

[fleet anchor]

Also the other issue about Ambush with Assassination has been the CP gen being a lot less efficient than Mutilate which is kinda a big deal for us

Improved Ambush could possibly help with that though

[torn atlas]

I seem to be missing where Bone spike is on the new talent trees

[marble hemlock]

thats fixed with the class tree one tho

ambush beign always 4cp now is pretty massive

[bleak sky]

It's not there :)

[fleet whale]

nah spike didn't make the cut

[marble hemlock]

so if youd want to go for a more ambush heavy build, youd definitely pick that talent

[fleet whale]

sepsis for sin and ER for rogues in general

[sharp falcon]

There's a balance here, right? Not a DPS parse balance thing, but finding the line between players navigating variable bonuses that contextually change the buttons they will push (good problem) Vs. going too far and causing headaches or invalidating core rotational buttons. I would stop short of making everything work with everything all the time, but some consolidation (like Doomblade working with Ambush as proposed) could go a long way. Hopefully there's an "everyone wins" version we can hit that doesn't have to remove all texture

[torn atlas]

Exactly my problem 😪

[ebon notch]

thats a very diplomatic response i respect it

[marble hemlock]

thats a damn good response.

[bleak sky]

Realz a real g

[fleet anchor]

Yeah that's fair, it's just mostly that Ambush in theory/conceptually is probably "always" supposed to be better than Mutilate, but we do tend to reach some inflection points where that stops being the case.

[lucid birch]

[balmy condor]

Pov realz walking in #assassination

[lucid birch]

https://tenor.com/view/call-from-based-department-gif-25645857

[bleak sky]

That's him coming in to clown on @ebon notch

[slow needle]

Not just Sin. The absolute unit is managing all 3 spec channels at once and knocking it out of the park in each and every one.

[marble hemlock]

the pendulum has definitely swung a bit too far into mutilates direction during SL, where pressing ambush at all was basically never worth it at any point.

[balmy condor]

that's what I said

[bleak sky]

Oh those are synonyms now?

[marble hemlock]

and weve had other times, although shortlived, where using fok over mutilate on singletarget was the play as well

[fleet anchor]

e.g. I would ask "is the interest of a talent like Venom Rush that it's about Mutilate or is it "you refund some energy when generating against poisoned targets."
In general, I read it more as the latter, but it just happens to not work on Ambush because Ambush didn't exist for Assassination when it was made in Legion.

[limber lion]

I'm a bit sad that Sepsis was added to the talent tree in its current Shadowlands form. It's just not a great ability currently, unfortunately. Sepsis proc causing your character to vanish and allow for stealthed garrotes was troublesome, but if it refunded the vanish cooldown itself, it would be an amazing ability. Instead of randomly vanishing or getting a proc that you'll never use, you could choose how and when you want to press your Vanish.

[indigo mulch]

I agree with this.

[fleet anchor]

If there was something that was really thematically to buff Mutilate, I could get that for sure

But I don't really feel like the current talents that touch Mutilate are that

[sharp falcon]

The Outlaw stealth/Dance build basically turns Ambush into Sinister, so the blueprint for "everything Mut can do, Ambush can do too" is there... I just don't want to exactly match if Assassin can have its own flavor of Ambush and stealth/Dance (like involving Garrote too for starters)

[subtle kiln]

@sharp falcon greatly appreciate you talking some time out to chat with us.

[fleet anchor]

They just happen to use Mutilate as a vehicle

[fleet whale]

yeah SBS imo should've been the talent not sepsis

[fleet anchor]

Since it's the generator we push

[marble hemlock]

think the suggestion we had during SL beta for that, was that sepsis could "change" into a different ability after its duration expired, that was funcationally similar to vanish. and until you used it, the sepsis CD would not start running.

[fleet whale]

but i suppose blizz is in the mindset that sepsis=poison, and therefore, sepsis=sin

[balmy condor]

I like cevs idea better tbh

[limber lion]

Yeah, something like that could work. I'm almost positive that the current version of Sepsis will not see much play in Dragonflight, unless it's tuned very, very well.

[slow needle]

Would Cev's idea not just lead to dumping Vanish if its off cd just before Sepsis?

[fleet whale]

inc TTB and sepsis overtuned

[marble hemlock]

the power for sepsis in its current form would have to come from the raw damage, with the "special effect" it provides being basically a non-factor in terms of its viability for raw DPS

[fleet anchor]

Maim, Mangle is more "You generate bigger against stuff you bothered to put Garrote on"
Doomblade is more "Here's an extra bleed triggered by your generator to interact with your bleed things"
Venom rush is more "You get more energy efficiency on generators if you managed to poison them"

None of the designs to me are actually focused on Mutilate.

Whereas an effect like Double Dose in BfA was very Mutilate-centric flavor

[limber lion]

The proc is very underwhelming and the random vanish that we had in SL pre-patch was problematic. Refunding the Vanish cooldown not only allows you to play around Vanish like you want, but it also invites you to use Vanish more aggressively before Sepsis procs.

[fleet anchor]

Double Dose could definitely return if you need a filler as well though. That was a pretty solid Azerite trait.

[fleet whale]

didn't Double does sort of return though in DF

[marble hemlock]

do we actually want vanish to be a major DPS cd again though? im not sure i do.

[fleet whale]

isn't there a talent that give mut nature damage

[kindred rapids]

It'd be weird potentially having to sync sepsis to vanish

[sharp falcon]

I think the current version is pretty clean, but you're absolutely right that something was lost when it wasn't a true Vanish. That said, there's a reason Sepsis isn't a final-row talent in any tree, it's not justified. It's more of a roleplayer CD for extra burst and a Stealth move for builds that have sufficient synergy to want one, while occupying a 'cheap' location for a Cov abil

[limber lion]

Not necessarily, but even then because you know you're getting your Vanish cooldown refunded, you can use it earlier for utility as well because you know you'll have it back again for other uses.

[white orchid]

Imp garrote does the same thing as subter and I see subter exists on the left rogue tree. Safe to assume it wont stack in anyway?

[limber lion]

Fair enough, that does make sense.

[fleet anchor]

VV is autos and Mutilate but doesn't really have much Mutilate theme to it

[balmy condor]

they do stack, they just don't do the same thing

read them again

[fleet anchor]

Whereas Double Dose literally could have only worked with Mutilate

Since it required a Mutilate-specific thing to happen

[white orchid]

yea I guess subter is for all abilities like cheap shot too for triple cheap in pvp but if you only use garrote for example from stealth then imp garrtote is all you would need theoretically

[balmy condor]

that's where shadow dance comes in

[limber lion]

I'm just sad that Sepsis had so much potential to be great, but it never really reached its potential. I always thought it was the most interesting covenant ability out of all 4 during Shadowlands PTR which could allow for synergy with more stealth-focused legendaries and talents, but instead we got a proc that we actively try to ignore.

[kindred rapids]

Kinda wish there was more communication between branches.

[ebon notch]

imagine if we could go up the tree instead of only sideways and down

[kindred rapids]

Feels like you're locked into taking a bunch of stuff

[ebon notch]

[balmy condor]

man I'm so glad I did my taxes earlier this week

now I have time to do non-tax things

like mentally taxing talent trees

[lucid birch]

Like dungeons

[limber lion]

But all in all, the tree thus far looks amazing and I'm hyped for the future. Great to have a person who knows what they're talking about and who's obviously passionate about getting it right.

[balmy condor]

slam poetry by whispyr

[limber lion]

This is a nice contrast to getting our Shadowlands legendaries, Torghast anima powers and talents during the last 2 weeks of Shadowlands alpha.

[marble hemlock]

i think the stealth-based stuff is ultimately the core of a lot of issues between specs, as stealth-based abilities affect each class differently, adn so it was kinda impossible to get it "right" in SL where every spec had access to every covenant ability

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

Other problem with Ambush is there's lots of hidden detriment to it due to it not hitting twice

Mutilate will literally be twice as strong of a button to press with Amplifying Poison for example

[marble hemlock]

double lethal poison will also push mutilate over ambush

[kind talon]

Even if ambush is free?

[balmy condor]

the only thing ambush being free does is give you a gcd

if you don't need the gcd and mutilate is stronger anyway

then whats the point

[kind talon]

True

[limber lion]

Yeah but that's also fine, isn't it? We don't exactly get any use out of Echoing Reprimand either, so I think it's justified that we benefit more from the Sepsis stealth. In my ideal world I see Sub playing ER, Outlaw playing SBS and Assassination playing Sepsis.

[gloomy knoll]

sub can't really go er

because of how wonky our spec tree is

tuning will happen but it's either er or give up tons of crit juice on builders which seem to be really good cuz of backstab juice

[marble hemlock]

the new system definitely afford us more opportunities to make sepsis an assa thing, and not a nightfae thing. same as that is an option for flag and sub, for example

[limber lion]

Absolutely.

Mad positive vibes only.

[fleet anchor]

Well, it's also worth noting that some of the design problems with Sepsis being true Vanish in SL really aren't an issue in DF

The issue we had with it in beta was that it had abnormal synergies with specific legendaries and talents

And pushed very one-dimensional builds

But in a DF talent tree that is irrelevant really

[fleet whale]

I know this seems minor but
I'm excited for 2 charges of step for sin

[fleet anchor]

Since the position can be selected based on that knowledge

There's no competing systems

[balmy condor]

TRUE

[fleet whale]

won't be slow boys no more

[white orchid]

Do you think it will possible to icarnage an empowered garrote on aoe

[toxic locust]

this was always something that bothered me and i'm so glad it's fixed

sin and sub get 2 steps, outlaw gets 1 step and 1 hook

perfectly balanced

[fleet whale]

in fact im cool with a 2 min sprint cd

[royal lantern]

Wtt step for hook

[fleet whale]

since were getting 2 step charges

[fleet anchor]

For example, using the Assassination placement of Sepsis

You know you have to get MA anyway

[limber lion]

Probably. But Scent of Blood is a thing, so there's definitely some theory we need to look into.

[balmy condor]

that's a question for @sharp falcon, I was wondering the same thing, how does vanish carnage work

[fleet anchor]

So it really isn't a problem that it interacts with MA

Not like it would have been in SL

In SL the concern was every NF player would 100% lock in MA talent and that's that lol

In a way the DF systems definitely simplify the concerns

[white orchid]

ohh yeah vanish MA a carnage aoe empowered garrote lol

[limber lion]

Oh yeah that is possibly my biggest gripe in the tree - Master Assassin being 30% for 3s. What's the reasoning behind that? @sharp falcon

Master Assassin currently feels really, really bad and we're sitting at 50% 3s, and now we're dropping it down to 30%.

[balmy condor]

cold blood work on bleeds too?

like cold blood vanish carnage garrote

[limber lion]

I was expecting to see Master Assassin go back to 100% in PvE personally.

[balmy condor]

into a 100% crit empowered gar

sounds insane

[fleet whale]

Wait is realz a dev, I went out to Ritas for a bit

[balmy condor]

yes

[white orchid]

thatd be gross

[balmy condor]

realz made the tree

[limber lion]

Realz is a real one

[sharp falcon]

I don't want to make a hard commitment because players require such tight balance that I can't say for sure yet, and tuning might end up making that answer for me. That said, the current "WHAT IF EVERYTHING JUST WORKS" blue-sky desire is for things to just work the way you want, cuz that's fun, right?! So Carnage not breaking stealth, Cold Blood working on Sepsis/Bleeds, etc

[fleet whale]

well it's an impressive first tree, truly it is

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

makes sense makes sense, thanks for the insight

[limber lion]

we like fun

[ebon notch]

yo that time i said "carnage will probs break stealth lmao" yeah i was kidding haha

[sharp falcon]

my arm might get twisted, so like I said I can't commit to that, but I want it that way

[white orchid]

Atrophic is nice to have too I know pally discord was salty about it

[balmy condor]

the community will be here with an arm brace for you

[subtle kiln]

i can send a guard dog to protect you.

[balmy condor]

we'll get that untwisted no problem

[fleet whale]

I'm in fact nervous that other classes are gonna think that our tree is "too good"

[limber lion]

So much synergy

[modern shale]

@realz is the new vendetta getting some sort of cdr like current duskwalker, or is it back to 2 minute andy class?

[ebon notch]

we need to go spread propoganda in other discords

[white orchid]

1 min vendetta is so nie in retail

[balmy condor]

there is no borrowed power except tier

so unless it's on the tree right now

it's a 2min

[kind talon]

no we need to do the exact opposite of that so every other class doesnt email boby kotick asking to nerf rogue

[oblique ore]

guys rogue trees are too good especially assassination so many choices... please gas light to other classes

[kind talon]

daps you absolute 🤡

[modern shale]

Ait, ty :)

[royal lantern]

We talk about rogue here, the tree doesnt need to be good for people to comaib thats its to strong, no matter how good or bad ut is lol

[sharp falcon]

whether Carnage does or does not break stealth is an entirely arbitrary distinction, there's no fantasy or even legacy reason it should or shouldn't. The most player-friendly version is to not break stealth, but the community requires balance over fun, even if they have to punch themselves in the face to have it =p

[true pelican]

wdym just stack some outlaws

[balmy condor]

(it doesn't stack)

[gloomy knoll]

wait

you can't stack outlaw cdr

lol rip pirates

[kind talon]

?

[ebon notch]

while thats very true, making it break stealth wouldnt affect its balance would it? it wouls just be annoying

[oblique ore]

law states outlaws do stack..

[subtle kiln]

looks at warlock balance… noted

[ebon notch]

like you would just pop carnage, then restealth then go into the pack

[marble hemlock]

Idk if it was talked about earlier already, but the one major concern I have atm, is that the Rogue trees seem very linear. Looking at other classes theres a lot of cross-overs from one side to the other, whereas the rogue class tree in particular is basically a linear path with only minor variations from Tier 2 onward all the way down to Tier7. Was there any talk about potentially allowing for more crossover between paths?

[balmy condor]

I can only assume if it stacks it would need some nerfs

[kind talon]

it could pull aggro

[oblique ore]

tricks?

agro?

[lucid birch]

Realz comment in outlaw made it sound like stacking works and is being watched out for heavily

[oblique ore]

vanish?

[marble hemlock]

i.e. this is just 3 paths down and youre forced into 2 to unlock the later stages/meet the 20point requirement

[white orchid]

So is vendetta a thing or is there no such button that gives us a flat out damage increase for x seconds anymore lol

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

https://tenor.com/view/check-the-pins-kowalski-penguin-gif-20219688

[warm parcel]

vendetta got renamed

[marble hemlock]

compared to hunter for example, which has a lot of criss-cross

[gloomy knoll]

yea that might help in sub

if we could branch off from the center

to pick more right / left side stuff too

same with sin

[royal lantern]

@balmy condor the cdr probs either wont stack, or gets big diminishing returns at launch then

[sharp falcon]

Nothing about the way it's written implies it wouldn't work in multiples. But it's likely to be a problem, so we'll probably have to add some kind of restriction (why is Outlaw spilling over here, there's only so much Restless Crew doomsaying I can handle in one day)

[gusty kestrel]

@sharp falcon do u think talents will ever work upwards, as in u go down first and then up to the right/left?

[marble hemlock]

Thats just the class trees, but its definitely a concern for the spec ones too. You basically set out on a path very early and are then pretty much required to follow it, and atm the Rogue ones dont have a lot of choices while on that path compared to the other classes just yet.

[sharp falcon]

decision was made to always flow down

[grim shuttle]

I really wish for this as well. Is it 30% in the new talet tree? That feels kinda.. dull?

[gusty kestrel]

[limber lion]

Unfortunately so.

[lucid birch]

[balmy condor]

I mean master assassin being 50% already has it's issues with seal fate where you just... don't crit

[sharp falcon]

there were some really wild early versions that had omni-directional choice among other wild structure differences. Maybe someday there will be a public post-mortem

[royal lantern]

I still have master assassin no crit ptsd from jaina prog during bfa

[spice spire]

Oh buddy

[gusty kestrel]

yea I can imagine, wouldve been cool since there is potential for some interesting builds if it worked that way

[royal lantern]

Sooooo many no crit pulls :)

[limber lion]

Yeah, MA just feels bad whenever you don't crit and doesn't really have any hype moments whenever you do crit - because it's assumed you do.

92% crit chance

Mutilate

2 Cp

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

https://tenor.com/view/saywhat-huh-confused-iamconfused-youlyin-gif-22766635

[royal lantern]

Alt f4

[spice spire]

You ever 93% crit fok into 5+ targets just to get 3cp?

[royal lantern]

Wtf game crashex

[grim shuttle]

God my chest hurt when I read that

[balmy condor]

that's 2 more than me

[true pelican]

does atrophic work with shiv?

[balmy condor]

y'all ever just go into m+ and need to fok 4 times for a finisher

[grim shuttle]

Make MA great again

[ebon notch]

oh yeah @sharp falcon if there was a node that let fok work like shuriken storm id do illegal (good) things to you

[sharp falcon]

Are you pointing at the 30% crit part, or the 3 sec part? I wanted to consolidate the post-stealth effects around the same timer, which accounts for the 3 sec. As for the crit %, totally hipfire feel about what was appropriate balance for the effect and its location. That said, final tuning is very much TBD

[royal lantern]

30% part

[fallen plover]

yes please FoK needing crits to give extra cp tilts me to no end

[balmy condor]

fok 2 cp good

fok just being storm not it

[ebon notch]

whisp i will hurt u

[gloomy knoll]

you ever done that on 15 targets to get 1 cp

actual maldge

[ebon notch]

this man has never even seen a dungeon

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

his opinion on fok is invalid

[balmy condor]

let sub be the generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish generate finish spec

[spice spire]

@ebon notch

[fleet anchor]

I mean, I'm not totally surprised there is a lot of Restless Crew doomsaying haha... Rogues haven't really been fan of the external meta, so to get what looks like a bonkers external that probably won't benefit the Rogue themselves. Rogue players may not be the best audience for that. I think if you took a poll in RH it'd probably be largely in favor of nuking externals to oblivion. 🤣

[ebon notch]

STOP

[subtle kiln]

you had your 30 seconds

[solid chasm]

i made the collage of this whole interaction in OT

[marble hemlock]

going into m+ as assa smh

[sharp falcon]

“The tip of the neighbour's iceberg often looks very nice.”

[spice spire]

God bless

[marble hemlock]

did i really just say that?

[ebon notch]

your neighbour has an iceberg?

you have an iceberg??

[uneven hamlet]

echoing blades type of thing would've been a great addition tbh

[gusty kestrel]

yes u meta slave

[sharp falcon]

in this analogy, you do too, i guess

[balmy condor]

my dude lives in alaska on god

[subtle kiln]

assa is the titanic in m+

[ebon notch]

on god god floatin with pingu and shit

[oak sky]

Daps

[balmy condor]

noot noot

[oak sky]

Why would you make us sub

[lucid birch]

NOOT NOOT

[marble hemlock]

but yeah anyway, definitely hoping for some more pathing from one side to the other, right now it feels like a ff13 dungeon to choose the left-side tree and then be presented with a bunch of must-picks and 1 minor choice (of which youll likely just take both anyway)😦

[royal lantern]

Yeha, beeing a switch is way cooler

[limber lion]

Mainly the crit part. It just feels really, really bad whenever you don't crit with it. It's always been a weird talent since it was introduced in BFA as a talent following the 100% 5s that we had in Legion as a legendary.

Many of us in the community were hoping to see Master Assassin go back to 100% in PvE, because of how well it smoothens the rotation whenever you can consistently crit with it and rely on the crits. It's not great whenever you open on a raid boss and you get tilted the first 3 seconds because you didn't crit with your Mutilate with 90% crit rate.

[fleet anchor]

Generally I feel like our feel preference on MA is "it'd be better for it to be shorter and 100% than longer and lower % because if you don't crit in that window your talent essentially did nothing."

Obviously it does something on average, but when Vanish is a 2m cooldown to have a high chance of doing nothing is actually very frustrating. We used to chat about it quite regularly during the MA Mutilate-heavy openers in BfA, on Jaina prog and stuff like that. "50% of the time it works every time." 😛

Definitely see the argument though, but just to give some background on why people are asking. What made MA as a legendary good in Legion was that it was 100% and thus could be planned around.

[balmy condor]

if we don't take seal fate though

then we won't even feel the crit

[marble hemlock]

you mean like in my builder build?

[spice spire]

NA tisu is too based holy fuck

[oak sky]

Yo i like NA tisu too he talks to me 😊

[balmy condor]

I've selectively blocked traumatic experiences from my consciousness sorry

[marble hemlock]

tisu, you gonna become a follower of my builder build?

its the new religion

[fleet whale]

what is the builder build

[balmy condor]

no no no

[marble hemlock]

[subtle kiln]

bob’s build

[fleet whale]

I want to become a hammerite

[ebon notch]

bob the builder??

[spice spire]

Whíspyr about to ban seli

[warm parcel]

They feared marked for death. Now they fear the builder build

[spice spire]

[burnt latch]

TF?????

[fleet whale]

All will serve the Master Builder

[royal lantern]

Delete

[marble hemlock]

fuck poisons, we mutilating and ambushing it up

[ebon notch]

its ok i got clowned on so hard i changed my name

[spice spire]

Everything focused on mut and ambush

[sharp falcon]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to say something like, "the game has variance, this isn't any different, deal with it" --- but the precedent of a once-guaranteed effect of the same name is especially confounding and I don't want to imply that the experiences you've had and the feelings they've generated are invalid... not sure what to do about that, though. I'm sure you can understand why I can't just crank up the effect to 100% while changing nothing else. Definitely need to think about it more

[royal lantern]

This is cursed af seli

[balmy condor]

wants to generate forever, hates echoing blades for the same reason

[fleet anchor]

At 30% it's a bit strange to think that you could have a 3 minute fight and probably have just over a 10% chance that your talent actually contributed 0 damage, which just feels odd.

[marble hemlock]

why

[ebon notch]

i love this guy he actually responds like a human being

[spice spire]

I think that’s a fine response

[ebon notch]

more than we deserve

[spice spire]

When we’ve played a spec for a while, we’re bound to hit the absolute worst variant possible

[marble hemlock]

build cp, get ambush procs, get find weakness, hit harder mutilates, get more dam from mutilate-based procs, get free ambush from blindside and sepsis, roll it up with a dance for 4cp ambush spams and big finishers

[royal lantern]

It looks like a " i wanna play sub, but without weeb spells" tree

[marble hemlock]

every mut+ambush combo always 6cp

yeah

[fleet whale]

I pray for whatever dev is gonna have to do a Q&A down at felhammer...

[marble hemlock]

i called it the "sub build" as assa

[spice spire]

Envenoms for days

[ebon notch]

im getting mixed messages quake

[spice spire]

?

[balmy condor]

"big finishers" my guy your mutilates are hitting harder than your envenoms what is your definition of "big", do you see a big 5cm in the mirror when you step out of the shower?

[toxic locust]

what if MA just gave seal fate's combo points at a 100% chance without making things actually crit?

[burnt latch]

Get fucked

[toxic locust]

that's the important part, right?

[ebon notch]

is it poggers or despairge

[sharp falcon]

=*(

[fleet whale]

did you make havoc as well?

[spice spire]

Oh it’s definitely despairge

[ebon notch]

you first

ill wait

[fleet anchor]

Man I do the sims for Havoc and even I don't like going to Fel Hammer 🤣

[sharp falcon]

Rogue and DH are mine (for talent trees)

[lapis barn]

Gang is this just gonna be the straight up m+ build of the expansion here? provided warlocks aren't deleting packs in 0.3 seconds

[ebon notch]

oh lord

[toxic locust]

looking forward to DH then

[balmy condor]

I don't think anyone likes going to fel hammer

[marble hemlock]

it has all the talents that improve envenom dam. all 2 of them.

[fleet whale]

hmm hopefully they will be nice to you

[royal lantern]

Nobody likes going to the dh's

[subtle kiln]

momentum for everyone

[spice spire]

He just like me fr (I don’t do sims for dh)

[fleet whale]

Wordup is cool honestly

[ebon notch]

let us know when you start asking them questions so we can watch please

[subtle kiln]

that will go over well

[balmy condor]

pins and also lmao thistle tea looking bozo

[fleet anchor]

So you're telling me that I have to implement all your stuff in SimC. I guess that makes it easier who I direct all my anger towards. 🤣

[lapis barn]

hey man lemme live the thistle tea dream

[balmy condor]

(energy capped spec in aoe btw)

[uneven hamlet]

thistle tea while energy capped from dots in 200 mobs :stare:

[lapis barn]

wait ur right LOOOOL

aight replace that w the deeper strat

[spice spire]

Thistle tea might be good ST at least

[toxic locust]

i only know wordup as "the most iconic person from earthshrine"

didn't know he was in DH discord

[fleet whale]

he does dh stuff too

[balmy condor]

(you're not going to generate those CP anyway lamayo)

[fleet whale]

or at least he used to in BFA, maybe he doesn't anymore

[lapis barn]

never crit sadge

[spice spire]

He’s also here, not as a tc but he does stuff

[balmy condor]

huh?

wordup does nothing here

[fleet anchor]

He replies sometimes when people say incorrect things about WFT

[balmy condor]

he shit posts about windfury and then leaves

[spice spire]

I know but he’s here

[fleet whale]

I already can predict what's gonna happen on FH:
an argument will break out over momentum

[lapis barn]

what we sayin instead of TT / DS then

[spice spire]

Here

Not green

Jesus

[balmy condor]

quake are you having a stroke

[ebon notch]

werdup is... an interesting character

[marble hemlock]

thistle tea could actually be a nice opportunity to introduce an ability that lets us use our excessive energy regen by not just granting energy, but also adding an effect like "your abilities consume more energy for x seconds but also deal x% more damage" or smth like that. thatd make it a decent burst-CD

[spice spire]

Yes

I am

Talents made me happy

[balmy condor]

still pins

[fleet anchor]

Please no

[spice spire]

I didn’t expect it

[sick aspen]

how does atrophic poison compare in the grand scheme of raid utility whispyr?

[marble hemlock]

kind of like a sugar rush after drinking a fruit smoothie

[spice spire]

Stroke ensues

[sharp falcon]

I don't need them to be nice, I just need them to be not a brick wall. I don't get mad, I can handle 'mean' if it's rooted in genuine criticism revolving around the thing we like. Like, you can tell me why the thing we're talking about is dumb and why it's bad and why it should be different. But some people just want to scream at someone and make it personal, and it's difficult to collaborate on something to make it better when we can't keep focused on that thing

[lucid birch]

Yeah whispyr how does it compare in the grand scheme

[slow needle]

Can you just burn Fel Hammer down for the rest of us instead?

[sharp falcon]

lol

[spice spire]

I find mfs like u real interesting mister dsnow

[ebon notch]

unreal interesting on god

[fleet anchor]

I would say I feel like RH has a bit higher rate of people who "get it" functionally. Although Whispyr might still complain about that. FH takes to next level though. lol

[spice spire]

Wdym mister dapsman

[balmy condor]

WOW

[lapis barn]

only just clocked what u meant by pins LMAOO mb

[balmy condor]

I'm a nice guy! Sometimes!

[marble hemlock]

atrophic value will vary a lot from fight to fight, and also depend on how shiv works with it. a lot of damage doesnt have the boss as the source, so it might not affect certain mechanics that youd want it to, i.e. stuff that has other playes as the source like the bombs on jailer, or environmental damage that has no source at all.

[subtle kiln]

!bis

[fleet whale]

I already know the big three topics will be on FH:

[fleet anchor]

Hey sometimes you're like "man there's so many dum dums in here!"

And I'm like LOL

[spice spire]

You’re a nice guy, always

[fleet anchor]

😄

[fleet whale]

Demon Blades, Momentum, and "lack of buttons"

[spice spire]

Okay maybe not always

[balmy condor]

yeah but I'm right

[ebon notch]

[subtle kiln]

!bis

[fleet anchor]

I actually feel like either DH talent tree will be really hard or really easy

[lucid birch]

You’re pretty alright yourself

[balmy condor]

better to be accurately mean than meanly accurate

[slow needle]

Gonna be honest. I think that the only reason there is any rate of people getting it here in RH is because of the incredible work those doing the theory crafting put in. Everything is generally well backed up with proper evidence and where evidence is lacking that is clearly labelled.

[balmy condor]

or something

[echo patrol]

What was the craziest idea that never made it past the drawing board for rogue?

[balmy condor]

I'll work on it

[fleet anchor]

DH talents right now are actually really good

[royal lantern]

Do i count as a dum dum

[fleet anchor]

In general

[balmy condor]

doing aoe damage

[spice spire]

Thanks boo

[marble hemlock]

if you have to ask, isnt that your answer?

[spice spire]

Yes

[burnt latch]

Could the answer maybe be for it to only empower builders for x seconds or x casts after coming out of stealth?

[fleet whale]

@fleet anchor not sure if FH would agree with you even if you are correct lol

[fleet anchor]

Yeah they are spoiled

[limber lion]

Yeah, for sure. Who knows, maybe cranking the number down is the smarter move - maybe it'll get rid of the assumption that you'll get 4 CP every time you Mutilate, and instead build the assumption that you'll get 2-4 with Mutilate and getting 4 cp is the pleasant surprise and not the other way around. I would personally, and I'm echoing a lot of Assassination rogues here, like to see MA reworked where it causes Mutilate/Ambush to generate 4 CP from stealth and 3s after stealth, 100% crit for 3s or completely removed from the game.

[fleet anchor]

They don't realize Havoc has one of the most functional talent trees in retail

[fleet whale]

Like I don't even know what their favorite era or tier of havoc was down there

[royal lantern]

Im at step 5:acceptance allready

[spice spire]

In one patch they had like 3 viable builds

[fleet anchor]

Havoc's talent trees are honestly very well designed and pretty well balanced

They've basically always had alternative sub-builds

[toxic locust]

i think the part people like most about MA is the combo points, not necessarily the actual crit damage
right?

[fleet anchor]

Many of which play quite different

[balmy condor]

correct

[lapis barn]

@balmy condor regardin the raid tree, what'd be the reason for taking Crimson Tempest over exsanguinate? I thought the only thing that really brought CT into this tier was because it worked with the vendetta part of the 4 set?

[fleet anchor]

I don't think they realize what it's like to play on specs with locked talents for like 3 years 🤣

[limber lion]

I don't think anyone cares about the damage that MA provides, it's all about the CP.

[toxic locust]

so maybe a way to do it would be if MA had a 100% chance to grant seal fate's combo points but didn't actually grant crit chance

[balmy condor]

because exsang is poop and every fight has some sort of aoe, and CT is the only aoe we have

[royal lantern]

You dont feel dmg, you feel more cp

[limber lion]

Actual good suggestion.

[sudden hound]

also lethal dose

[ebon notch]

the big envenom crits are nice, but in this tier its purely the builders for the flag you right

[fleet whale]

in pure ST i could see VR simming higher than CT

[balmy condor]

yeah

[fleet whale]

but of course we don't even know what the numbers are

[balmy condor]

that's why it's a general tree

in big red letters

[marble hemlock]

think the variance in cp gen is the most disliked thing about the rogue specs where it exists. whether its mutilate CP rng for assa or the lack of SS procs for outlaw, it affects your pull-to-pull damage a lot even if the variance isnt very high in 10k iteration sims, and that creates quite a few moments of frustration in your regular gameplay. MA just exacerbates the issue as it naturally makes you think "oh, this talent remove this variance" and on the few moments where it still happens, you just feel like youve been cheated.

[ebon notch]

@burnt latch why are you even awake bozo

[lapis barn]

Ah sick thank you, also do you dabble in the outlaw theory at all or nah cuz I was peepin the pins in there n didn't see any trees yet for that but the restless crew talent seems sick

[burnt latch]

The issue is that at 30% crit its common enough for it to happen often, which doesnt make it rare it enough for it to feel good, and because of how common it is to actually land on 4 it feels bad every time u dont

[balmy condor]

bad spec sorry no hablo ingles

[lapis barn]

:<

[lucid birch]

Whispyr and outlaw

[limber lion]

Yeah, that's the issue with the talent overall even at 50%.

[lucid birch]

[burnt latch]

Yo mom called me she was having nightmares

[ebon notch]

yeah of ur face

[limber lion]

That's why I personally think it needs to be 100% or removed from the game entirely.

Or reworked, if that's a thing.

[gloomy knoll]

stackable / classwide raid utility

[balmy condor]

the talent tree is pretty cool for outlaw though

I am considering

but I have not played outlaw in like 5 years

(since it's been outlaw)

[solid chasm]

"But some people just want to scream at someone and make it personal, and it's difficult to collaborate on something to make it better when we can't keep focused on that thing"

[kind talon]

Bro I gotchu

[balmy condor]

so don't ask me shit about it

[solid chasm]

yeah realz, just block hataro now

while you can

[spice spire]

I remember painsmith

Don’t lie to me

[balmy condor]

that's not playing

[lucid birch]

HAHA

[tidal gorge]

If it just gave additional combo points instead of critting that could be interesting. I'd basically guarantee a vanish - 4-5* mut, envenom, 4-5* mut

[slow needle]

Playing Outlaw back in Nathria, I vividly remember a night of Inerva prog where I would either get all the Broadsides in a pull or literally 0. I was either basically at the top of the meter or the bottom of the meter and I genuinely felt like I was playing a different class pull to pull. 100% I think if theres a way to 'fix' MA to smooth out the variance for CP generation it should be done.

[burnt latch]

After u come out of stealth your next 1/2/3 builder casts are guaranteed crits

[gloomy knoll]

you could tune it easily that way as well

[burnt latch]

Easy to tune

Feels great to play

[gloomy knoll]

next 3 abilities give double cp and do x amount more damage

[green harbor]

based whispyr, combat rogue was way more fun than any outlaw variation so far

[gloomy knoll]

that way you can just tune the damage amp

instead of crit chance

[marble magnet]

i'm legion baby.

Is Cold Blood a boring GCD?

[balmy condor]

I love you lets go to vegas and get married

[marble hemlock]

the fun of pressing coldblood depends on what you can press it with/for

[balmy condor]

yes but it's crit and we like crit so no, but also yes

[ebon notch]

fuck it dude give sin killing spree

[marble magnet]

they gave new Vendetta a dot, so it's more fun to press

[lapis barn]

Ye I get that, I only just picked it up again since the buffs n the concealed blunderbuss / greenskins viability came out, before that I wished that shit was still combat 😦

[ebon notch]

its not like outlaw is using it

to make it thematic instead of stabbing we just throw a poison bomb on the ground

[marble magnet]

but they gave a spell that literally does nothing until you press something else

[balmy condor]

you about to be a part of the killing spree if you don't stop talking homie what is wrong with your head

[ebon notch]

since ur american i take that as a legitimate threat

[velvet ridge]

I don't wanna use cold blood

[toxic locust]

i do

[ebon notch]

i walk away with hands up forgive

[slow needle]

Give Sin Killing Spree and let frontals sort the rest out.

[balmy condor]

we usually don't care about walking away with hands up

[marble magnet]

I'm fine with pressing Cold Blood if it did something more active

[ebon notch]

[white orchid]

In the m+ tree posted you think instead of going straight down from deaths mark you go into zoldyk instead wouldn’t that be a good m+ build with all the modifiers to dots and now can aoe execute too

[soft shale]

killing spree as assa sounds quite cursed best we can do is give more crit talents

[gloomy knoll]

yea you could be handcuffed and tied up

still a threat

[soft shale]

or running away

[gloomy knoll]

/s

[balmy condor]

zold is 3 points and requires 3 points into mutilate points, so you're losing out a fuck ton of points just to get zold

[soft shale]

zold does seem quite cursed

and lethal dose seems like nerf city

[white orchid]

You just lose all the abilities below deaths mark in the middle. I’m assuming those would be better than just a flat out execute on all your dots?

[soft shale]

if zold was 30% faster tick rate instead of flat dmg

i dont think any assa tree is not taking mark

[fleet whale]

So I think I just made the worst build of all time
I call it the "self heals and tank rogue spec"

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTNFVVVBVRUohVEQAACKNVZqFQUJkQBAwQA

[balmy condor]

this is the darkest timeline

[toxic locust]

seems pretty cool for like

random bg memeing

[fleet whale]

designed to top those rogue healing parses

[lapis barn]

Wouldn't you wanna go into the outlaw tree for improved evasion + float like a butterfly talents?

[slow needle]

If you want a proper tank rogue just play Outlaw with the Evasion CDR talent.

[balmy condor]

TWO POINTS INTO INTERNAL BLEEDING

B R U H

[spice spire]

HUH

[fleet whale]

I told you,

it's designed to be bad lol

[burnt latch]

Multiply this sentence by 20x and u get Nocco Jailer prog talents @ebon notch

[fleet whale]

@lapis barn this is for those that want to tank as sin

better kiting

[lapis barn]

ah sick but what about the extra 15% speed in outlaw too 🤔

[fleet whale]

Can't compare to sin dots

[echo patrol]

We have gun.

[fleet whale]

this may be the best part about these new trees at least until beta actually starts

making meme builds that are terrible

[slow needle]

There is definitely going to be shenanigans amongst my friends where we do M+ each using the most cursed build we can for a spec.

[kind talon]

"worst build of all time" doesnt even include exsang???

and u even took a capstone talent?

buddy

[limber lion]

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTMFVVVVVUUKoQEAACKMVYqUUVYkAEDBA

this is better

:-)

[velvet ridge]

I don't like mutilate and ambush blindside things, I want more dots and poison and bleed things.

[sharp falcon]

lethal dose too OP for this build (any build??)

[sharp falcon]

the beauty of talent trees... avoid left side! avoid!

[kind talon]

what if u did this

[limber lion]

nice try big boy

doomblade and sepsis too op

[fleet whale]

Would be fun to troll with these terrible builds and still top meters

[balmy condor]

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTOEUVUBVBSpAQ3BEAACKLVaoFQUIlBUTA

here you go guys

[fleet whale]

maybe in like Lfr

[balmy condor]

the least amount of buttons

[lapis barn]

based thank you

[limber lion]

oh I can get behind this

no buttons build

[kind talon]

checkmate

[limber lion]

just foot pedal

[fleet whale]

@balmy condor Havoc demon hunters are jealous

[limber lion]

[fleet whale]

So is iron stomach the biggest meme on the tree?

[slow needle]

No.

Exsang is.

[burnt latch]

Laughs in improved sap

[slow needle]

I have seen the truth after my brief sojourn into fantasy before.

[fleet whale]

@burnt latch improved sap is like mandatory though

cause of what it leads into

[limber swallow]

hey, sometimes you just need to sap... better..

[burnt latch]

This doesnt make it any better tho

[slow needle]

Actually, real talk. Could we get improved sap changed to work on mobs in combat?

[fleet whale]

I feel like if you see a rogue with iron stomach,
it's either gonna be a terrible/new player, or an orange parser

[slow needle]

Allow Vanish > Sap to be an alternative to Blind?

Or Dance > Sap

[burnt latch]

U wont find a single orange parsing rogue playing that mate

[limber swallow]

Improved Sap might be better if it applied the old Blackjack debuff

[lyric knoll]

sap should go back to not being 100% successful that way you can talent into imp sap for 100% chance to work

[balmy condor]

change improved sap to blind cd reduction done, fixed that for you

[slow needle]

That also works.

[muted ivy]

So how we feeling about MA being nerfed and put in the middle of the tree while Tiny Toxic Blade is put as one of our final row talents

[slow needle]

I was thinking it allows us to CC 2 mobs instead of 1.

[limber swallow]

sorry, sir. That's in outlaw.

[balmy condor]

poorly and both have been brought to the devs attention

[muted ivy]

I saw that and was like

[fleet whale]

Even with TTB being bad, DTB seems like a very strong st talent

gonna be hard to beat it

[balmy condor]

oh god new acronyms

[fleet whale]

yes lol

[balmy condor]

the only thing I see with DTB is down to bone

[fleet whale]

trying to start it early

[balmy condor]

I'm a degenerate

help

[gloomy knoll]

how we feeling about agonizing poison jr

[kindred rapids]

Down to Blast

[gloomy knoll]

is the real question

[grim tangle]

double time blade

[gloomy knoll]

[balmy condor]

I like it

[spice spire]

How many more DSs tho

[balmy condor]

but it seems weak

[spice spire]

🤨

[fleet whale]

it's much better than the original ap

[gloomy knoll]

i mean i'd rather it be weak

[fleet whale]

in terms of playing it

[gloomy knoll]

than make target swapping impossible

[burnt latch]

Down to buck

[limber lion]

what's your opinion on TD? @balmy condor

[balmy condor]

you play ttk for that

[gloomy knoll]

at least this version it's not th eend of the world if you swap

[balmy condor]

on Teez Duts?

[limber lion]

this dick, but close

[balmy condor]

excellent girth, scrumptious balls 11/8.5

[burnt latch]

Did u like the rework to ToG or RVF

[gloomy knoll]

how would that change it

envenom is a self buff

[lucid birch]

Scrumptious balls

[balmy condor]

your complaint is you can't target swap with agonizing right

[gloomy knoll]

ye

[balmy condor]

okay

[gloomy knoll]

this ones not even remotely as bad as agonizing

which si good

[balmy condor]

the solution is you have another talent right next to it

[fleet anchor]

Man how can these builds even be bad when they skip Improved Wound Poison

[half light]

agonizing was the one that gave you flat % extra dmg on a target?

[gloomy knoll]

yup

[balmy condor]

yes

[fleet anchor]

Not even trying

[gloomy knoll]

and it stacked

[fleet anchor]

Prey on the Weak is far too good for this build

[half light]

was it from legion? I remember there was something like that in legion and I preferred exs lol

[gloomy knoll]

yea was legion

[balmy condor]

it was from 9.1 specifically

and then it got removed

because it was a dogshit talent with awful gameplay

[gloomy knoll]

^

that was my first tier in the game

[half light]

ago? yeah it was like a passive that wouldn't let you swap targets

[gloomy knoll]

i just swapped targets and did shittier dps for it

[half light]

without incurring a hefty dmg cost

tho idk much tbh but it felt that way

[gloomy knoll]

yea it felt awful to swap

[fleet whale]

it also sucked on pull

wasn't fun getting only two stacks during an MA window

[low girder]

sure was fun needing to stack it on tentacles on helya

[gloomy knoll]

i generally hate stuff that soft target locks you

[low girder]

[balmy condor]

I remember a conversation I had with someone where they said that their raid holds lust until agonizing stacks, and then pops all cds

[gloomy knoll]

thankfully this all you miss out on is 30% of an evis

[balmy condor]

cursed timeline

[fleet whale]

it was funny being a rogue on Gul'dan though

[gloomy knoll]

if it's even better than wound poison

[fleet whale]

literally, we just parked our ass on the boss

[half light]

the elisande trinket being mandatory on outlaw lol

[lapis barn]

Yo just noticed btw in general raid tree is it worth having that 1 point in gouge over 3/3 alacrity?

[low girder]

that's all you did on most bosses

[fleet anchor]

https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AACTNFVVVFURUohVEQAACKMVZqVUVZEUBAQA

[balmy condor]

alacrity points only increase the chance, not the haste

[low girder]

on krosus i never swapped to adds

[gloomy knoll]

3rd point in alacrity does literally nothing

[low girder]

not worth

[balmy condor]

there's no reason to have 3

[slow needle]

I like this sentence. It works on multiple levels.

[half light]

lol

[gloomy knoll]

unless you want deeper

[half light]

why is there no reason to have 3?

[balmy condor]

because you don't need more % chance

[spice spire]

Here

[balmy condor]

2 is enough

[fleet whale]

most fights last more than a minute

[half light]

I see

so the % increase benefits shorter fights?

[fleet whale]

if a fight lasted like 30 seconds, maybe 3 ranks of alacrity would be good

[burnt latch]

Tf is agonizing stacks

[fleet whale]

in theory yeah

but it has to be like super short

[limber lion]

50s Hivemind kills

[balmy condor]

having a 3rd point in alacrity is probably a noticeable gain if your raid boss only lasts 25 seconds, yes

[limber lion]

Take me back

[half light]

LMAO

25s, what is this? WoD with tons of arcane mages with prophecy of fear?

[low girder]

8 second champion of the light

25s was long

reaver died in like 9 seconds

[fleet whale]

honestly if you aren't taking CD or gouge and want more dps with the build whisp made

you prolly take the stealth damage increase one

[balmy condor]

throwback to the leveling speedrunner that asked me for a custom stat weights sim for a 7 second fight that he could put into pawn while leveling to take the optimal quest rewards

I hope that guy is doing okay

[low girder]

[half light]

wtf LOL

[burnt latch]

WHAT IS AGONIZING

[half light]

an old talent

[low girder]

an old talent from legion

[balmy condor]

ITS A SHIT LEGION TALENT STOP YELLING

[burnt latch]

Why did u say it got removed in 9.1

Youre confusing my brain

[half light]

apply ago poison to your weapons which has x% chance to apply a stack, up to 5 stacks. Each stack gave around 4% extra damage

can only have it on one target at a time

[kindred rapids]

I just want it to be viable not to take improved shiv

[fleet whale]

agonizing poison was a talent in legion

[balmy condor]

because I meant 7.1 and you weren't smart enough to read the typo

[low girder]

it scaled with mastery also

[half light]

yup

[low girder]

it ended up being a lot more than 4% per stack

[fleet whale]

but it's proc rate was way too low

[burnt latch]

Its not my fault i have bad genetics okay?

[half light]

and also master poisoner, no?

[low girder]

yeah

[balmy condor]

finnish (derogatory)

[fleet whale]

and you didn't use deadly poison

[half light]

yeah it replaced deadly

[fleet whale]

well, it technically didn't

[marble hemlock]

no it didnt

[half light]

but ~50% dmg increase was worth it with high levels of mastery iirc

[fleet whale]

but you can't use two lethals

[marble hemlock]

you just swapped between them if you wanted to

[burnt latch]

@limber lion help

[half light]

ah well that's true