Specs really shouldn't have niches as long as you have the top specs in the game being omni-specs
#assassination
strange python
You can't make every single spec good at all of the types of dsmage
vestal wren
there are a lot of good ideas, i agree
strange python
I would rather see the top specs torn apart than homogenize everything.
fallen fable
Sin definetely does more st than sub. If you dont count sylv dagger.
slow marsh
Specs are already turning into God specs that do everything with tier
fleet anchor
Never gonna happen
oak sky
you have to count sylv dagger
timid cloud
I’m just merely stating some few issues that are big enough to ruin the idea of bringing a class for something.
oak sky
why would you not count sylv dagger
slow marsh
Who cares about niche at this point
strange python
Sin definetely does more st than sub. If you dont count sylv dagger.
I wasn't talking rogue vs rogue spec. But this is also not true
fleet anchor
Fire Mage's design is fundamentally good at everything
oak sky
cleave
vestal wren
Niches work if fight design allows specs to shine and every spec/class has clear bad cases
fleet anchor
It's never gonna change
slow marsh
Yes niches work as long as you stay within the boundaries of said niche
fleet anchor
Havoc is gonna do free AoE all day long. Never gonna change.
slow marsh
But they dont
fallen fable
Because some guilds doesnt give a fuck about their rouges and didnt struggle to help with getting it if they didnt have luck on their own
slow marsh
So get rid of them if you're not gonna follow your own rules
fleet anchor
ST isn't a niche, it's just doing damage
slow marsh
Kinda dev 101 imo
timid cloud
That’s like saying a car built in the 20’s should be better than a car built right now just because of the niche.
strange python
It's never gonna change
Couldn't you also say "well sin will always have had aoe" if that's the same argument?
fleet anchor
Assassination without a baseline AoE spender really doesn't have AoE.
strange python
If we're just settling for "blizz has always been bad at this, so they always will be" then we just stop discussing and accept fate no?
timid cloud
I mean be the change you wanna see.
fleet anchor
Mutildotting will never be competitive AoE. The numbers just wouldn't make sense.
strange python
I'd much rather see Fire and Destro lose their single target dam than see every spec do the same things
slow marsh
Making fan hit way harder depending on how many dots are on said target solves a lot imo and doesn't involve an aoe spender
timid cloud
I’m just being hopium but I hope people listen if enough outcry goes around.
strange python
I’m just being hopium but I hope people listen if enough outcry goes around.
Shadow priests are proof of this.
timid cloud
Making fan hit way harder depending on how many dots are on said target solves a...
Not bad. I’d dig it.
vestal wren
monk is in a interessting position for that
fleet anchor
Niches are really just an excuse for bad specs to be bad at this point imo
slow marsh
But their aoe isn't strong enough anymore
oak sky
feral?
fleet anchor
Gameplay in the game is varied, niches are a handicap. The best specs will be the ones that have the tools to adapt to the flow of an encounter.
strange python
Niches are really just an excuse for bad specs to be bad at this point imo
But that's just because blizzard has done niches wrong. So we're arguing blizz can't learn to do niches well and should homogenize then?
timid cloud
Like not all specs have to be the same, or different, they just have to be relevant enough to even be a competitive option.
fleet anchor
AoE vs. ST isn't a niche, it's just like.. baseline functionality of dealing damage
slow marsh
Niche has lost it's meaning
fleet anchor
The tuning of ST would have to be wildly more dramatic than people are willing to see for it to make any sense
slow marsh
Niche should be hunters instant target swapping or aff lock spread cleave
slow marsh
Not st vs aoe
vestal wren
^
fleet anchor
Sub or Feral or w/e
Should do like
40% more ST damage than AoE-friendly specs like Hunters
Not 5%
vestal wren
if tuning is for niches
oak sky
st isnt a niche its just a value component
fleet anchor
But that will never be allowed to happen
vestal wren
i would consider giving external buffs also niches that would need the class/spec to be tuned lower 😉
slow marsh
Niche should be taken into consideration when designing raids, not tuning specs imo
timid cloud
You don’t have to have sin be like sub, just make it to where they’re both able to do just play the game game on even scales & let it be a test of ability. Not numbers & better options.
fleet anchor
ST is not allowed to be a niche, so saying "ST niche" is really just an excuse for "your AoE is bad because reasons"
vestal wren
but yet, neither utility nor external buffs are rly considered
blazing lake
Guys, do I understand correctly that the snapshot is only 4 pieces?
vestal wren
not even raid buffs
timid cloud
Guys, do I understand correctly that the snapshot is only 4 pieces?
Yes.
strange python
I want a cool pins reaction to my comment :( but every time I ask an obvious bait question you all just assume I'm trolling
fleet anchor
But that's just because blizzard has done niches wrong. So we're arguing blizz c...
I don't really think it's homogenization just to say all specs should be able to transition between AoE and ST damage patterns
timid cloud
fleet anchor
Every spec has unique rotations
timid cloud
You with the hottest takes lol
strange python
Idk. I'd rather have utility spread out more than anything tbh
fallen fable
@strange python why would you say sub does more dmg than sin in ST without sylv dagger?
slow marsh
By the way I can't wait until people realize that you can put faeries on sin rogue with PI and basically chain vendetta
fleet anchor
AoE and ST transitioning is literally a core gameplay loop in WoW
It's called M+
Any "niche" spec is just dead
strange python
Take health stones away from warlock and give it to rogues.
timid cloud
Yeah. Just having no AOE or no ST feels bad.
strange python
That's how you increase class diversity
timid cloud
So you usually just gravitate to the better performing ones who have both.
blazing lake
Yes.
That is, the accumulation of stacks from flagellation is meaningless for the whole vendetta?
vestal wren
isn't monk quite good in m+ besides beeing more of a niche pick
due to single targte performance
slow marsh
No it's not
strange python
Monk slams m+ in low keys
slow marsh
Anymore
vestal wren
i am not saying i disagree with the point, i completely agree
timid cloud
That is, the accumulation of stacks from flagellation is meaningless for the who...
No. Haste matters, I’m bad with math, you’d have to ask the big brains.
oak sky
monk is still pretty good but now weak enough that shit like destro does what it did but better and has better st
slow marsh
Because other specs who do relevant st can also pump more aoe than ww now
timid cloud
MM & Destro do the AOE job better.
strange python
Destro is absurd though. Good thing it got buffs.
timid cloud
While doing better ST.
vestal wren
i mean wl is just overtuned atm
timid cloud
Yeah.
slow marsh
Surv kinda just hard replaces ww in every comp
timid cloud
Except Affi.
vestal wren
unsure what the reason is for that
timid cloud
On the NICHE fight of Pantheon which even Destro is becoming better than….
vestal wren
but balancing is also not rly good
strange python
I half expect warlock and enhance nerfs after hall of fame, so that warrior can retain it's rightful place as #1
vestal wren
so might be just inherent flaws in evaluation
strange python
On the NICHE fight of Pantheon which even Destro is becoming better than….
Destro slams lihuvim too
gusty mirage
I want a cool pins reaction to my comment :( but every time I ask an obvious bai...
there ya go friend
oak sky
I half expect warlock and enhance nerfs after hall of fame, so that warrior can ...
#1 at what? 
fleet anchor
I mean WW at this point is like BfA Sub levels of ST damage bad
strange python
Being the top dam class at the end of xpacs
fleet anchor
It's unfathomable they haven't been hotfixed yet
oak sky
didnt they get buffed today
slow marsh
Wym they just got buffed
oak sky
1% i think
strange python
But koji. Fire needed buffs first.
oak sky
lol
fleet anchor
Got buffed less than Fire Mages 🤣
gusty mirage
Got buffed less than Fire Mages 🤣
well yeah
slow marsh
They got the fan of knives treatment
vestal wren
balancing rly seems to have a high bias towards certain specs/classes
oak sky
fire was about to be middle tier
prog spec + ratio
strange python
Why do Ice and Oxis avatars look like they're meeting up for a date
tidal gorge
Meanwhile:
Assassination
- Fixed spelling. Rogue is now correctly rouge.
gusty mirage
because we're edating
blazing lake
No. Haste matters, I’m bad with math, you’d have to ask the big brains.
Let me rephrase. Each bleed refresh is snapshotted at the current haste value or at the time the vendetta was cast
rotund oak
balancing rly seems to have a high bias towards certain specs/classes
After 17-18 years its safe to assume its mages 😄
strange python
It's spelled editing*
vestal wren
After 17-18 years its safe to assume its mages 😄
haha, its def. not rogue 😉
fleet anchor
Let me rephrase. Each bleed refresh is snapshotted at the current haste value or...
When Vendetta is cast but also when your bleeds are recast within Vendetta
slow marsh
Let me rephrase. Each bleed refresh is snapshotted at the current haste value or...
Vendetta takes bleed tick rate and does x2.
fleet anchor
For refreshing
slow marsh
The point of the snapshot is getting extra haste on your first set of bleeds in vend
Since we already reapplied at the end of vend for overhang
rotund oak
prog spec + ratio
we dont rly wanna envnom anymore on our VD windows do we?Having that exsang on VD rly calls for watching out those bleeds to keep rolling 😛
oak sky
nope
rotund oak
also nadja sucks now or what
fallen fable
How was rogues specs last expansions? Did we ever had aoe cd?
slow marsh
Gotta keep slice up but yeah
oak sky
nadjia was always behind theotar with the right tea
gusty mirage
haha, its def. not rogue 😉
wdym look at this fat buff
slow marsh
Nadjia can be good depending on fights tho
vestal wren
How was rogues specs last expansions? Did we ever had aoe cd?
outlaw was quite good in m+
tidal gorge
Last expansion we had single target crimson tempest as long as we have like 68+ haste
oak sky
what 272 phial
timid cloud
No haste tea = Nadjia but sim yo self with other tea strings
vestal wren
for one season even overpowered
slow marsh
You get thrill during 2nd set of cds
oak sky
tru
fallen fable
outlaw was quite good in m+
It was god last exp as i heard
rotund oak
Nadjia can be good depending on fights tho
can udnerstand nadja for sausage and halondrus
slow marsh
For me as long as I don't roll agi Theo is better but also thrill kinda nutty with add fights
timid cloud
Yeah. Because it had it all.
gusty mirage
You get thrill during 2nd set of cds
I have the thrill of activating sub and never turning back
oak sky
yeah nadjia is for sure better on halondrus
rotund oak
but rly idk,i find theotar more of a thing for eveyrhting rn
vestal wren
it was as dominant that you would see 2 outlaw rogues quite commonly in mdi
oak sky
dont think theres an argument there
timid cloud
I have the thrill of activating sub and never turning back
Mood.
oak sky
it was as dominant that you would see 2 outlaw rogues quite commonly in mdi
wasnt there a 3 ww meta too
timid cloud
Got myself a pumpkin today on Sub.
vestal wren
that was in legion
oak sky
oh right
vestal wren
when blizz decided to omegabuff ww last tier of the xpac
slow marsh
Good on you
fallen fable
Havent tried outlaw with tier, how does it feels to play?
timid cloud
Bad.
fallen fable
☹️
gusty mirage
Depends, how many bugs have they fixed yet?
oak sky
no damage = bad classic take
timid cloud
Chile….
slow marsh
At this point in hoping for an over correction on outlaw buffs and I'll gladly play that dice game over sub
oak sky
no but really
vestal wren
Legion still had some problems
timid cloud
Check the lists of bugs still going on.
fallen fable
Really liked that spec on beggining of xpac.
oak sky
outlaw is like in a fine state gameplay wise but bugs and low damage can be really frustrating
vestal wren
like some boss mechanics on higher keys would just oneshot you
timid cloud
Us reading outlaw bugs.
timid cloud
LOL
vestal wren
so ww groups would need to equip defensive legendary powers to not die in higher keys
slow marsh
outlaw is like in a fine state gameplay wise but bugs and low damage can be real...
Yeah it's kinda bad when outlaw feels like it flows better than sin cuz it do be like that
vestal wren
i think sin always has a decent roational flow
oak sky
no
bleak sky
rerollers unite
oak sky
you couldnt
gusty mirage
"Every rogue is a rally waiting to happen"
slow marsh
Sin was fine until 4p existed and add fights made up over half the raid
timid cloud
You either die a Sin Rogue, or you live long enough to see yourself become the Subtlety Rogue
oak sky
could leave out that first part @slow marsh
vestal wren
i mean
timid cloud
You either die a Sin Rogue, or you live long enough to see yourself become the Battle Shout buff.
vestal wren
sin 4p is the only tier set that rly works well with the spec
slow marsh
could leave out that first part <@409626135408803841>
I mean I had fun in ptr at least ig xD
gusty mirage
except half the playerbase hates it
because exsanguinate is something you either love or you hate
vestal wren
even tho its also fucking overpowered in a isolated point of view
slow marsh
It's a shitty mechanic
timid cloud
Less bugs on PTR than on Retail for Outlaw...
gusty mirage
even tho its also fucking overpowered in a isolated point of view
hard disagree
timid cloud
Maybe if it was poisons & bleeds...
vestal wren
or outalws 12%
timid cloud
I'd like it a bit more.
gusty mirage
yeah man super "overpowered" because our other tier sets suck
vestal wren
the sub set was even nerfed quite a it
timid cloud
Just bring back the fucking Nighthold tier set.
thin trout
how does 'isolated pov' and OP work?
slow marsh
Overpowered tier cuz the base spec is so underpowered
And it's still the least fun tier set
vestal wren
how does 'isolated pov' and OP work?
thats why i say isolated
because sin is not considered overpowered in absolute output
slow marsh
They should just made it to where your bleeds and poisons tick twice during vendetta problem solved
gusty mirage
I mean sure, by that logic shuriken storm is overpowered as fuck in an isolated POV
vestal wren
why?
gusty mirage
wdym why
1 button = max CP in 5+ target
compared to FoK which relies on rng
and outlaw which has to ST build its CP
vestal wren
thats gameplay design
slow marsh
One button max CP is something outlaw has to talent into btw
gusty mirage
your logic of comparing the rogue tier sets and calling sin's "overpowered"
applies to that
vestal wren
sub has this design since 3 xpacs now
slow marsh
And it has a 1.5min cd
vestal wren
and if it was overpowered it would slap other classes in aoe
what it clearly does not
gusty mirage
wait
gusty mirage
even tho its also fucking overpowered in a isolated point of view
??????
slow marsh
It doesn't need to it slaps the other two specs in its own class wtf
gusty mirage
so how is sin's tier set overpowered
vestal wren
i don't know how you would isolate storm
gusty mirage
it would "slap other classes in ST"
vestal wren
as one single ability
vestal wren
thats makes not a lot of sense
gusty mirage
that's my point
vestal wren
e.g. if you compare impact of legendary powers
gusty mirage
your statement
that you've repeated over and over and over again
about how "strong" the sin 4pc is
slow marsh
Also sin tier barely gets it to sub st levels and that's with degen gameplay btw
vestal wren
you can say having 20% damage impact on a legendary on class x vs 5% on rogue for example
slow marsh
I don't see how you get out of this one tbh
gusty mirage
why are we not top ST dps?
gusty mirage
you're moving the goal posts now
bleak sky
why are we not top ST dps?
because sin bad
gusty mirage
is it isolated or not
gusty mirage
if you do 9800 baseline
vestal wren
i am not moving any goal posts
gusty mirage
how is a 30% tier set overpowered
vestal wren
i isolate the impact of legendary powers
gusty mirage
but why does the % increase matter
if after that 30%
you're still behind the stronger spec
vestal wren
just say yes or no
slow marsh
Like sure if you give sub a 30% tier set it's overpowered
gusty mirage
?
vestal wren
alright, hence you try to no answer it. people would say "yes"
gusty mirage
No, I'm not answering it because it's asinine
vestal wren
however isolation it does not mean you are top dps
gusty mirage
and it's frustrating as fuck to hear one of our TCs say the tier set is "overpowered as fuck"
vestal wren
you can have a 100% legendary and still be bottom dps
vestal wren
just because your baseline tuning is shit
slow marsh
But like 20% of 100 is the same as 5% of 2000 so
gusty mirage
well then clearly it's not "overpowered" is it
vestal wren
it is
vestal wren
thats my point
slow marsh
You're kinda saying what weighs more, 100 tons of feathers or 100 tons of bricks
oak sky
remember when obedience got nerfed oxi
vestal wren
a spec can have one thing way over budget
native belfry
But sin set is ST only while sub one is both
vestal wren
because in the end we discuss the overall performance
gusty mirage
and not the strongest ST spec in the class
vestal wren
you can ask guy
slow marsh
But sin set is ST only while sub one is both
You sir get a star
vestal wren
how he thinks about % increases of outlaw
slow marsh
Because if tier sets were all 10% and base specs tuned accordingly this wouldn't be an issue
vestal wren
it means something in tuning was not done correctly
slow marsh
Yeah like all of it
vestal wren
and if i look at the useless isolated tier value
vestal wren
i see thta if this useless metric is used, and outlaw would get similar impact to subtlety
it would have been a lot better balanced
slow marsh
20% of what. You can't have one without the other is the issue
But all in all we got baited by their ideals when in reality it was horseshit
native belfry
I mean, sin is just shit all of this xpac cuz they can’t tune it properly so our dots deal damage, not aas
slow marsh
10-15% tier sets and then we'll balance base specs accordingly
vestal wren
relative increase works well if you have good baselines
but this would mean you need to balance around baselines
native belfry
Sin needs rescale, not tuning tbh
vestal wren
what was not done
slow marsh
Ye it's hard to tune baselines when your devs don't play the game
fair glade
Hey guys how are you ?i'm trying to understand all the point of view but what was the question at start?
slow marsh
Or only play mage warlock and boomkin
vestal wren
i even think sin currently suffers from the sry to repeat this "overpowered" tier set
slow marsh
Well yeah ofc it does
vestal wren
as if the damage was baseline and tier set had a lower impact, you would have a far higher play rate
gusty mirage
just like last tier it suffered from the "overpowered" frost shard set
slow marsh
They can't buff anything that affects tier
vestal wren
but thats just my opinion
fair glade
I said that from the getgo
and what about base damage on spells or rework some spells
gusty mirage
What's the variance on the sub tier set?
vestal wren
just like last tier it suffered from the "overpowered" frost shard set
i think they made some questionable design decisions with frost set
gusty mirage
god tier rng procs, what's the tier set % increase
vestal wren
i hope you don't try to make a point that
slow marsh
My biggest complaint about frost set was that it made bad players look good potentially. And I'd rather have that back than this shit tier
vestal wren
"if you get 5 buffs for most of the fight, you are op"
gusty mirage
Just answer my question
vestal wren
it is proc based
so if you get 100% proc chance
what is the most unlikely thing in the world
vestal wren
you can say its fucking overpowered
gusty mirage
what's the variance on the sub tier set
vestal wren
i would interprete talking about "gods" would imply a very high proc rate
vestal wren
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
vestal wren
^ knock yourself out
but i don't think your statement has a lot of ground, the baseline thing is that the sin bonus has little rng
so it will have a very constant value
fair glade
but i don't think your statement has a lot of ground, the baseline thing is that...
where is rng on sin bonus ?
slow marsh
There isn't any
vestal wren
thats the point yes
slow marsh
Yes which is fine but it's still apples to oranges to me
vestal wren
if one player can do 1-6 damage
vs. one player who can do 3.5 damage all the time
what one is better?
slow marsh
They're the same
gusty mirage
if one player can do 1-6 damage
vs. one player who can do 3.5 damage all the tim...
how does this example relate to tier set increases
slow marsh
Statistically it's literally the same lol
oak sky
^
vestal wren
it relates to your question about damage impact from procs
gusty mirage
when your baseline is 1200 dps higher
fair glade
dunno depends on stats and how procs are tunes if you can do more than 3.5 most of times il will take 1-6
slow marsh
But what oxi is saying I think is that your 4p rng procs gain value in aoe whereas our op tier doesn't
gusty mirage
and your "mean" on your rng set is still higher than the "overpowered as fuck" consistent tier set
oxi is saying that he's tired of hearing how overpowered the assassination set is
vestal wren
idk why you are so upset of claiming the tier set impact is way over budget
when it clearly is
gusty mirage
because it's derailing the fact that no matter how over budget it is, we still do shit damage
slow marsh
That has 50 something % aura buff to keep it afloat
gusty mirage
it's belittling the fact that our spec is doing less damage
and the % increase is irrelevant
gusty mirage
it doesn't matter if the 4pc gives us a 50% increase if we're still doing shit damage
so if we still do shit damage, how is it "overpowered"
compared to what? our two other shit tier sets?
vestal wren
i just explained
why its over budget
and i also explained, why it does not matter above
gusty mirage
you need to choose your words more carefully then, don't call it overpowered because that gives it an air of it being overtuned
rather than overbudget of where blizzard wanted the tier sets
because for a random reading this channel
vestal wren
you can say that one system has way more impact that in should while still stating that the spec is not overpowered
gusty mirage
they see a shadowblade and one of the main TCs in the rogue community go "assassination's tier set is fucking overpowered"
and then go around spreading that
slow marsh
Blizz devs are shit at balancing and they act slower than molasses to address issues that we told them would be issues since it was in ptr
fallow otter
If I race around a track in a gtr vs Michael Schumacher in a 1981 Holden barina it doesn't matter as long as its a close race right?
slow marsh
I don't get what else there is about it
balmy condor
they see a shadowblade and one of the main TCs in the rogue community go "assass...
Dratnos said 4 set is a 100% damage increase during vendetta, and the 2 set on top of that? WOOWEE
VERY STRONG
oak sky
true
slow marsh
If I race around a track in a gtr vs Michael Schumacher in a 1981 Holden barina ...
Sure but how does your gtr perform in an aoe scenario
oak sky
100% increase during vendetta is 30% gg dratnos right mad?
bleak sky
If I race around a track in a gtr vs Michael Schumacher in a 1981 Holden barina ...
you're not gonna race schumacher are you
fair glade
Thats what they should have done here making tier set relevent even if some tier spec are in camporasion to others overpowered
gusty mirage
community perception 110% affects class balance
Considering fire mage got a fucking buff
vestal wren
its the same as saying the boomie legendary is overpowered
gusty mirage
despite being strong as fuck
slow marsh
I don't see why we can't just agree that outlaw needs buffs and then sin needs help in some way
Like I don't get it
fair glade
I don't see why we can't just agree that outlaw needs buffs and then sin needs h...
sure it is xD
vestal wren
i don't think anyone disagrees
slow marsh
The way you are posturing your argument makes it appear as if you do
vestal wren
no quite the oposite
if you read my messages in #outlaw you will see that i frequently talk about outlaw needing a buff
fair glade
The way you are posturing your argument makes it appear as if you do
i think not he might tell us why they can't buff sin while set is op thay can't buff it and they wont touch the class except spells that are not in combinaition with set
indigo mulch
I mean i dont think sins dmg is that bad. If you look at boss dmg sin is actually quite high up there no?
slow marsh
Like I think I maybe kinda understand the pov you're coming from in that because the sin tier is such a high budget it could make buffing sin harder, but to me that's just lazy dev excuse
fair glade
I mean i dont think sins dmg is that bad. If you look at boss dmg sin is actuall...
yeah but only on raid :3
bleak sky
I mean i dont think sins dmg is that bad. If you look at boss dmg sin is actuall...
you would expect a class that quite literally ONLY brings damage to be at the top, not "high up"
slow marsh
And certainly higher than the other spec that has a Swiss army knife of tools for encounters
slow marsh
So do you nerf sub or buff sin
indigo mulch
Blackpowder ia to strong.
fallow otter
Nerf sub probably
bleak sky
nerf sub = gratz all rogues are now not viable
indigo mulch
Sub isent op if you ask me.
rotund oak
sub is OP
indigo mulch
They just have a kit that suit all situations
slow marsh
Subs not op within the grand scheme of melee dps
fallow otter
I was given 2 options
slow marsh
But within the scope of rogue it is
native belfry
Nerf all other classes ez clap sin is a king
slow marsh
So you have to raise the bar of the other rogue specs in general
fallow otter
I dunno about that
indigo mulch
I think sin should grt a healthy dose of 2t cleave buff
And outlaw just more aoe dmg
fallow otter
I think sin should grt a healthy dose of 2t cleave buff
Isn't it already bis for this?
rotund oak
forget it
fallow otter
Im guessing it's the go to for lod
slow marsh
Sin needs either more st or more aoe one or the other but not both
fallow otter
But I havent checked
slow marsh
Not really tho
bleak sky
Sin needs either more st or more aoe one or the other but not both
wtb more st
slow marsh
In my opinion they should target buff garrote and it would be a fine bandaid for now until we can hopefully get love for 10.0
native belfry
Wtb dot damage
fallow otter
I actually think sin is in a solid spot, it's middle of the pack overall, pretty solid in ST, aoe lacking but still usable. Simple fact is that sin is a brain dead spec, you guess might not like it being said but it ain't no big brain spec
Sub takes more brains and you get rewarded, I like this way of thinking tbh
slow marsh
Tell me you haven't played this patch without telling me you haven't played this patch
fallow otter
You trying to say sin is hard?
slow marsh
You clearly haven't played the patch
obtuse robin
venth sin is way harder then sub
slow marsh
Or you would know that's not true
faint harness
the powergap sub has compared to the other 2 rogue specs
rotund oak
<:Weirdege:915545168545996810>
if u dont open ur stream ill call you out
faint harness
Sapzilla, have you played any assa this patch
faint harness
Have you played it good
indigo mulch
faint harness
How can you say theres a huge gap
rotund oak
idk,im trying to put all stones where they should be
oak sky
he doesnt even have 4p yet does he
faint harness
Dishonesty
rotund oak
i do have 4p
fallow otter
venth sin is way harder then sub
For raid? ST?
obtuse robin
m+
faint harness
can't compare people to cev though
You dont have to do cev tier dmg to do competitive damage
fallow otter
Wtf ok let me preface that I'm talking about raid
faint harness
On assa
bleak sky
true
faint harness
He is just doing like 2k more st dps than the best public log. Not required to do good damage lmao
indigo mulch
Thats insanity though.
rotund oak
The powergap between assa and sub(lets put aside outlaw,its embarasing even to mention dead things) in ST isnt that much but still exists.in aoe venthyr kinda kicks assa @ss
@faint harness
faint harness
Assa players just very sad this patch i guess. Instead of optimizing and working on their dmg
slow marsh
I mean
obtuse robin
????
slow marsh
Why optimize when you can just play sub and turn off your brain
rotund oak
eh wait what,we all play sub
faint harness
Why tho
rotund oak
over eveyrhitng coz its stronger pretyt much everywhere
hollow escarp
is this m+ or raid talk? 
slow marsh
Both
faint harness
In raid its basically equal if you know what ur doing
obtuse robin
no its not
rotund oak
doubt
oak sky
why complain about difficulty
slow marsh
Sure sin can compete with sub damage in st but also works 2x as hard to do it
oak sky
thats not a factor
slow marsh
But then adds come out
fallow otter
Unless you're pushing hard, play whatever you want can do all content easy for keys
slow marsh
And it's no contest
fallow otter
Sure sin can compete with sub damage in st but also works 2x as hard to do it
?
Oh it's this about keys?
oak sky
no
slow marsh
It's about both
hollow escarp
you guys should get 278 daggers, assa is good 
faint harness
Too many assa players have just went sub this patch and complain about it when assa is actually a very good raid spec. Fair enough if you do it because the assa set feels like shit to play, but doing it for damage reasons is just weird to me.
slow marsh
It's the point that sin can compete with sub and get close to matching but gets blown out in aoe scenarios
rotund oak
assa is very nice for raids,i can agree that much
fallow otter
Too many assa players have just went sub this patch and complain about it when a...
Dw I'm also confused
slow marsh
I mean it does feel like shit you're not wrong lol
rotund oak
and i think it has alot of stuff to do,even win sub later on
but now,no sub way better
slow marsh
It's easier to just play sub and ride the wave
hollow escarp
sub was way better early on because sylvanas dagger, but the gap is closing fast
in raid at least
slow marsh
Eh
fallen fable
Count poor souls without sylv dagger
potent dagger
Count poor souls without sylv dagger
+1 XD
vestal wren
I am sorry to state this, i think sin would have been a lot more popular this tier if the value of the tier set was more in the baseline spec
slow marsh
Like I was never trying to say that sin did shit damage in the first place, just that we play a cringe feelsbad build and playstyle to be able to even compete with sub and that's just in single target
bleak sky
or if the effect wasn't exsanguinate
hollow escarp
we have exsanguinate talent 
vestal wren
as gear aquisition is kind of a problem, and getitng to 4p is somewhat a relevant factor
rotund oak
I am sorry to state this, i think sin would have been a lot more popular this ti...
bullet right in the heart 👌
slow marsh
I am sorry to state this, i think sin would have been a lot more popular this ti...
I eman I agree 100%
faint harness
My pov about this is kinda skewed. But what i see in raid is me trying to do damage as sub, get rngd out and Cev being able to do consistent st dmg that surpasses my dmg with avg rng. Just not seeing this massive difference people speak of
rotund oak
hahahah
hollow escarp
yeah, he presses buttons
obtuse robin
My pov about this is kinda skewed. But what i see in raid is me trying to do dam...
comapring urself to a former rwf raider
faint harness
But the potential dps is very large and it has practically 0 rng involved
obtuse robin
no shot bucko
rotund oak
he does some insane stuff with logs,especially in pantheon
fallow otter
Doesn't it just confirm that, it's a you problem not a balance problem
slow marsh
I think anyone raiding with Cev would think sin is perfectly fine
bleak sky
comapring urself to a former rwf raider
I mean push is a very LARGE sub rogue though
gusty mirage
My pov about this is kinda skewed. But what i see in raid is me trying to do dam...
I don't think it's a massive damage difference either
unless you like super omega proc
the "huge" dif people think is there, isn't
vestal wren
but @gusty mirage i am sorry that i made i didn't express myself clear in the prior statement.
My aim wasn't to start a argument about sins absolute strengh, and i think you are correct that others can missunderstand it as to me saying sin is too strong.
rotund oak
I mean push is a very LARGE sub rogue though
Push is huge sub rogue,not simply large :p
basicly primera
gusty mirage
but <@192059095279337473> i am sorry that i made i didn't express myself clear i...
no worries man, it's just frustrating seeing our class as a whole being so middle of the pack
I look at the numbers and I ask myself why I'm not playing a better class
potent dagger
In pure ST , i find the two spec rather close for each other
slow marsh
I think the point is more just that sin has to play cringe feelsbad stuff just to keep up with subs dmg in st, not that it's not achievable
bleak sky
no worries man, it's just frustrating seeing our class as a whole being so middl...
Seeing rogues boss damage being below other specs is still depressing and shouldn't be the case
vestal wren
I look at the numbers and I ask myself why I'm not playing a better class
you know, in your 
you can't betray rogue
fallow otter
I look at the numbers and I ask myself why I'm not playing a better class
If it's proven to be done, do you mean easier class?
potent dagger
But in AOE it's just an omegalaul difference
slow marsh
Ye
gusty mirage
If it's proven to be done, do you mean easier class?
essentially yeah
we work harder to do damage, and bring no utility
slow marsh
Like you could argue boss damage is more important but like sub can do both right
gusty mirage
when I could play warrior and press the shiny light up buttons
fallen fable
Seeing rogues boss damage being below other specs is still depressing and should...
I mean we were really good last tier. Now they gave a little joy for other classes....
faint harness
Just dont think yall should be playing down the assa dmg like this. It has very few players, probably because of rwf and the influence their choices has on the game. But the spec itself seems totally fine to me, in a rogue context. Now give us a raid buff and we never leave the raid.
hollow escarp
Like you could argue boss damage is more important but like sub can do both righ...
they can, but will they
gusty mirage
Just dont think yall should be playing down the assa dmg like this. It has very ...
Exsang is difficult for a lot of people, which is why we're seeing a lot of people switch to sub
faint harness
For m+ i can 100% agree tho, and its the same story as in 9.1
gusty mirage
it speeds up a spec that's otherwise very calculated and planned
hollow escarp
tbf, you always have second thoughts when you want to play assa on a fight and then see there's only 2 public logs on it 
bleak sky
I hate the exsang gameplay tbh
potent dagger
Exsang is difficult for a lot of people, which is why we're seeing a lot of peop...
A lot of people are playing sub just because they were told that it's better
slow marsh
The exsang is cringe but the most cringe thing is that you can't even do the pitiful aoe that sin is capable of because you're too busy refreshing bleeds on vend target
gusty mirage
tbf, you always have second thoughts when you want to play assa on a fight and t...
I have second thoughts about playing sin on a fight because I don't want to deal with the 4pc
vestal wren
For m+ i can 100% agree tho, and its the same story as in 9.1
myhic plus balance is something rly off since ages sadly
fallow otter
we work harder to do damage, and bring no utility
I enjoy WoO (ww) but it's alot more effort than most specs only for me to stay on the bottom of the meters. Your ST is far better than mine
hollow escarp
I have second thoughts about playing sin on a fight because I don't want to deal...
I started prog on Halondrus on assa and I think I will actually continue playing assa there 
sucks that we don't get flag first reclaim
fallen fable
A lot of people are playing sub just because they were told that it's better
All official tier lists shows them much better and those are sims with mythic sylv in off hand. Difference without is is 500-1200dps. Ppl dont know that and raid leaders even less.
zinc frost
The exsang is cringe but the most cringe thing is that you can't even do the pit...
4pc is very frustrating in keys
slow marsh
Yeah I just gave up on trying to make sin work in keys
gusty mirage
All official tier lists shows them much better and those are sims with mythic sy...
dif between venthyr sin and kyrian sub is legit 140 dps for me
slow marsh
Not worth it
gusty mirage
and I have double 259 eons
fallen fable
U have sLv dagger?
vestal wren
compare venthyr sin vs venthyr sub
gusty mirage
ye
bleak sky
sin barely worked last tier, this tier is just for keys
vestal wren
and you have a clear winner
gusty mirage
compare venthyr sin vs venthyr sub
venthyr sub is painful to look at
fallen fable
I dont and difference for me is 800dps
hollow escarp
sin barely worked last tier, this tier is just <:dead:932888396316155934> for ke...
it's not worse than last tier, it's just that everything else is better
vestal wren
i think tier set is a big reason for that
zinc frost
it's not worse than last tier, it's just that everything else is better
100 percent… sub 4pc go brrrrr
hollow escarp
well, not outlaw
faint harness
Rip
cunning locust
necro+zoldyk or venthyr+duskwalker on lords with 4p?
slow marsh
Yeah I mean I get that some people in here are plebs and would complain any which way but like when tried and true sin gamers are just swapping to sub cuz it's easier to get more overall output then imo that's a problem
vestal wren
sub 4p actually does well in m+
potent dagger
I dont and difference for me is 800dps
WIthout sylv dagger but with 4set it's a 200ish dps difference for me in favor of Assasination ^^
gusty mirage
Yeah I mean I get that some people in here are plebs and would complain any whic...
plus double step trivializes a lot of the fights
potent dagger
sub 4p actually does well in m+
it don't does well , it's stupidly powerfull
faint harness
Yeah I mean I get that some people in here are plebs and would complain any whic...
Sub has turnt into the easy spec this tier. Which is a first i guess
fallen fable
Yeah im talking about 4pc situation. Its much more for me.
slow marsh
Don't let @fallow otter see you say that xD
vestal wren
Sub has turnt into the easy spec this tier. Which is a first i guess
i agree with you there
faint harness
I mean its all relative to ones own ability
fallen fable
Anyway guys was nice coffee reading. Have a good day all
slow marsh
But yes it's like why bother when the technically 'better' spec is also the easier one + like oxi said double step is op this tier
vestal wren
it is sitll surprising to me still how much issues people have woth stuff like ER, PV and even baseline alignments like using dance with symbols
hollow escarp
worst thing right now about assa/sub is that I use the same soulbind 
so I need to remember to swap conduits before doing m+
faint harness
But yes it's like why bother when the technically 'better' spec is also the easi...
This is the problem sub has had for many years. If assa and sub were ever equal or close in dmg. Unless you otp sub there was 0 reason to play it
slow marsh
it is sitll surprising to me still how much issues people have woth stuff like E...
Probably similar to people having issues with taking pandemic and cutting it in half
potent dagger
Probably similar to people having issues with taking pandemic and cutting it in ...
Sooooo true XD
slow marsh
2/3 gar rup
rotund oak
roger
slow marsh
worst thing right now about assa/sub is that I use the same soulbind <:starege:9...
I had assassination conduits for a sub run earlier and still did 16k overall
Makes sense
hollow escarp
that instant poison damage carried over
slow marsh
Massive
drifting imp
The exsang is cringe but the most cringe thing is that you can't even do the pit...
I wanna frame this and put it on my wall
gusty mirage
The exsang is cringe but the most cringe thing is that you can't even do the pit...
dw man 30% increase to fok damage
potent dagger
Strange i see so many people going ventyr for M+ on sub , but i sim higher with kleia XD
bleak sky
you can't really use your animacharged cp in m+
slow marsh
ZOMG SIN 2P GIVES AOE POTENTIAL? Viable in m+ now? Yeah just kidding
They really had us in the first half with that one
hollow escarp
I was also on that copium train
vestal wren
i think the fok buff will stay a meme for a while at least
gusty mirage
I thought the 10% bf buff was enough salt in the wound
then they said hold my beer and buffed fok damage
slow marsh
The timing of that
potent dagger
XD
hollow escarp
tbf, there must always be a dead spec
potent dagger
I see it as an hint that they understand that sub need some love for M+
bleak sky
i think the fok buff will stay a meme for a while at least
are you familiar with 5 ad, fuu?
potent dagger
tbf, there must always be a dead spec
We got Outlaw for that no ? XD
slow marsh
I thought it was April fools too in all seriousness
hollow escarp
We got Outlaw for that no ? XD
and sub for 90% of bfa
slow marsh
are you familiar with 5 ad, fuu?
I know some item designer for sure is
vestal wren
it was funny to observe distribution
gusty mirage
and that made me mad as fuck
vestal wren
when more than 50% of sub logs in mythic are on 1 encounter
gusty mirage
because I loved shuriken combo
vestal wren
it wouldn't even be that op in sl
gusty mirage
it'd fit the role we're stuck in for m+
vestal wren
anduin is the fight that it would matter in raid
hollow escarp
yeah, because we would press BP
vestal wren
and sub isn't the top damage dealer on anduin in terms of boss damage
hollow escarp
ngl, I was hoping for some mini Zul encounter
with Anduin
but then I see that prio damage doesn't matter there
vestal wren
the problem is cooldowns mostly
the "short" phase is excelent to use some big cooldowns, and sub does not rly have a big one
gusty mirage
but then I see that prio damage doesn't matter there
what prio damage
you have MM hunters doing 31k dps on anduin
they melt all the adds anyway
hollow escarp
vestal wren
i literally needed to ask our raiders to not only pad on adds
because we whiped on everyone aoe spamming and not killing the fucking add
hollow escarp
somehow we still have 2-3 smallies lingering after intermission
gusty mirage
somehow we still have 2-3 smallies lingering after intermission
not enough spears of bastion and slappy hands
unlucky
slow marsh
HOLY I forgot it was him as well
I don't think you understand the pressure I felt to meme him with that in here when I saw the fan buff
hollow escarp
not enough spears of bastion and slappy hands
those classes die to blasphemy
vestal wren
feels weird if yu have 4-5 dps below tanks on focus add damage
hollow escarp
yeah, but the abomination dies pretty fast now
vestal wren
well not in our heroic run yesterday
hollow escarp
at this point I just drop a rupture on it and maybe an envenom
bleak sky
I don't think you understand the pressure I felt to meme him with that in here w...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnowbp88lwI
I love this video so much
vestal wren
only after i offered people below our monk/druid tank a free 2 week vecation from the boss that players started killing it
slow marsh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnowbp88lwI
I love this video so much
I literally just rewatched this right before you linked xD
fallow otter
I started prog on Halondrus on assa and I think I will actually continue playing...
Are you tempted to do something with leeching or elusive
vestal wren
how good is leech ?
hollow escarp
well, it's good if cheat procs at the same time with pod
I haven't played NF that much but feels like every time they proc together
or maybe the damage is high enough to eat both cheat deaths
hollow escarp
Are you tempted to do something with leeching or elusive
also I would like my cheat death to be ready when I start picking up bombs 
vestal wren
I still procced cheat like 2 times in 45 pulls
i feel like a lot of fights, you probably could not play cheat death. For subtlety soothing seems rly good
slow marsh
After losing frost shield leeching sounds nice
I'm waiting to see how ceverion will reprimand us before I go to sleep finally
limber lion
Too many assa players have just went sub this patch and complain about it when a...
based. Just play the spec you want to play, no need to start chasing numbers on a different spec if you really like the Assa gameplay. Or Sub gameplay for that matter.
slow marsh
Ok that was mild I'll take it
What if you like assa gameplay but dislike the current iteration of it
hollow escarp
you play warlock
slow marsh
O ok
limber lion
What if you like assa gameplay but dislike the current iteration of it
You're the person who makes that choice. You can always play a different class/spec or a different game altogether
WoW is not a prison
zinc frost
What if you like assa gameplay but dislike the current iteration of it
Is it the exsanguinate-style you don’t like?
limber lion
Play what you want, go have fun
Unfortunately, or fortunately for some, the tier set is here for the next year or so probably.
slow marsh
I mean the exsanguinate leads to what I dislike which is that I don't feel I am as rewarded for good gameplay versus before the exsang effect. Which is weird cuz it also rewards good gameplay with snapshotting. Idk it's fucked to me which is why I dislike it
hollow escarp
it takes a bit to get used to it
zinc frost
Fair enough, I like hearing everyone’s different take on it
gusty mirage
I mean I can explain why I don't like it if you want
slow marsh
I don't mind it in a vacuum but I hate it when I want to multi dot and you know do what sin should do and remember oh wait I can't do that anymore
gusty mirage
The idea of feeling like I'm spinning plates constantly isn't fun to me
hollow escarp
that's why you hate outlaw? 👀
gusty mirage
that's why you hate outlaw? 👀
I hated outlaw because using CP for rtb felt like shit to me, not because it was particularly unfun or anything like that in general
slow marsh
Yeah like st fights it's totally fine to me. But unfort the raid isn't st right
And not to mention m+
gusty mirage
the only perks of the 4pc being an exsanguinate effect is I'm not spending globals on envenom "just because"
limber lion
I personally enjoy it a lot, because it rewards you for playing your cooldowns right, setting up bleeds properly, taking advantage of snapshotting, thinking 6s ahead and because it provides us with an actual good cooldown with Vendetta, where previously we would just slap it on something and just continue multidotting completely ignoring the Vendetta.
potent dagger
morrrrrrrreee dots
limber lion
But I do understand the dislike for it as well, each to their own.
hollow escarp
ct is the most annoying thing
how?
limber lion
Even in AoE I like to have tye option to use Vendetta to omega-focus one target down
It's actually a really solid cooldown for quickly bursting down a target
slow marsh
If they made 2p 60-75% but only affect the one target or something id be super down to just stick on the boss like glue and pump
potent dagger
And using the shitton of energy it give you to spread dots all over the place 😄
slow marsh
For me it comes down to opportunity cost
limber lion
Sure the aoe potential is still gone and it forces you on that one target, but I like to have the option to either hold Vendetta and keep playing normal Assa or go full ham on one target
fallow otter
But I do understand the dislike for it as well, each to their own.
Yeh me too, I thought adding complexity would engage sin players but it seems to have just pushed them to sub
limber lion
But again, I do understand the dislike. Don't need to like the same things, that's the beauty of the game and the multiple choices we have :P
gusty mirage
I disagree with it being "complexity"
we're not doing anything new, we're doing what we always did... just more often
limber lion
I'm still happy we got something that changes our rotation, compared to something like Havoc DH who get a "blade dance does 25% more damage" and "meta lasts for 6s longer"
fallow otter
You can still play sin brain dead and the floor isn't very far away
vestal wren
sin has a lot of complexity inherently due to dots, but they don't often materilize in hard gameplay
slow marsh
You really can't play sin brain dead in any which way any more idk why you're so stuck on that
gusty mirage
if cev didn't find the venthyr tech of playing CT in ST
everyone would be doing legit the same thing we've done forever
just more often
vestal wren
i am with cev more, i rly like how the tier set integrates with the spec, something i feel only sin has this tier
fallow otter
So you're saying that ignoring snapshot and micro managing CDs is going to put you at the bottom of the meters @slow marsh ?
slow marsh
10000%
vestal wren
not saying there arn't obviouse pain points
fallow otter
ST raid
slow marsh
Yep
You can't just casually throw stuff up and hit buttons and be fine anymore. Like Cev said part of the good in the tier is that you have to be incredibly active with what's going on now
potent dagger
i see mastery regaining strenght good good
slow marsh
Which is indeed a good aspect of it
fallow otter
You can't just casually throw stuff up and hit buttons and be fine anymore. Like...
Ok, I'll read into this more
normal mist
After getting 4/4 yesterday...
What is this fast apm spec???? I didn't sign up for this! 😂
normal mist
Actually, tried the 4set yesterday aswell in a +16
It feels really good
BUT
Buuuuut
indigo mulch
Sub in m+ feels so good ngl
indigo mulch
Getting those 4p procs feelagoodman
vestal wren
i think procs feel bad during tornado
vestal wren
solution, play ns + mos 
normal mist
I am doing a bigger overall for sure bcs I was not used to neither the 2 or the 4 set, and managed to go from 8k 2 days ago to 13k yesterday. Yes it is not much still but imagine if I learned it well!
indigo mulch
I dunno probably is but it dosent feel like it.
vestal wren
Tbh ns mos in m+ dosent even feel like much of a dps loss overall
i am unsure about it, tornado is a nice cooldown
ns + tornado feels not that great but thats mainly because it sucks on pure st
runic sequoia
Going into mythic raiding, would you guys say that assa is better for progression?
warm drift
The one you enjoy the most
vestal wren
Going into mythic raiding, would you guys say that assa is better for progressio...
both sub and sin work well in progression
warm drift
^
vestal wren
best is to play what you are comfortable with
as you will need to focus on mechanics, and e.g. learning subtlety and mechanics at the same time could make your performance a lot worse
normal mist
best is to play what you are comfortable with
Therefore playing assa for the rest of my days
vestal wren
also as push stated earlier, if you play sin rly well you can consistently peform to the level of subtlety or even higher
warm drift
Got my 4p aswell yesterday, got overwhelmed on both speccs. Definitely need to adapt
vestal wren
certain fights might favour sub or sin more, but overall i think at least for raiding both work well
runic sequoia
Been playing sub since the start of 9.2 gotta switch to assa to see how well that goes ^^. Thanks for the input though
normal mist
Did 5 bosses yesterday, N tho, only in the last 2 I had better parses... I really wasn't ready for the 4/4
zinc frost
Full stacked expedients and exsanguinate in BFA prepped me for this 
normal mist
Full stacked expedients and exsanguinate in BFA prepped me for this <:peepo:5857...
Meanwhile I was cosplaying cthun, using tentacles everywhere
limber lion
just more often
I do think there is a bit of a change in rotation and gameplay loop due to wanting to actually plan out your cooldown usage instead of sending everything on CD.
There's a few things you can learn on the way which will come second nature to you, but are not when you first start playing with the tier set. Like reapplying garrote at 6-8s to have it up for the last 1-2 seconds of Vendetta, holding Shiv for Vendetta windows instead of sending it but sending it right after Vend to take advantage of the overhang, reapplying dots toward the end and then letting them run out completely before reapplying and so on, and I really enjoy that.
I was personally bored of playing the same rotation since 9.0.5 till 9.2 and I'm glad we finally get to play around our dots more instead of slamming Shiv on CD and having Envenom as our main damage.
normal mist
Mindflay went boom
normal mist
Lol!
limber lion
ganked irl
rocky ruin
with 4p do we set everything up like gar, rup, ct then ven, shiv or shiv, ven?
limber lion
with 4p do we set everything up like gar, rup, ct then ven, shiv or shiv, ven?
just press vend and shiv together
vend is off gcd
follow the opener in the pins as Venthyr
rocky ruin
@limber lionim going for nf or necro one of both
normal mist
Cev you super busy or can someone review a kill of mine? Just to understand where I am failing
zinc frost
I do think there is a bit of a change in rotation and gameplay loop due to wanti...
Yeah I’ll take tier set over frost set rng any day.
solid venture
Assa is def more fun this tier than 9.1, was so bored of being locked into 1 covenant and the same set of talents for every single boss
vestal wren
i think corruption was decently fun for a lot of players
when you could reach haste levels to ignore your energy bar
solid venture
Probably yeah, I was a pirate one trick back then 
vestal wren
i am sad for everyone who missed out dfa sub
it was for me the most fun
also fok spam assa 
just for the absurdity that bug abuse had
drowsy parcel
i am sad for everyone who missed out dfa sub
Amen
vestal wren
(rotation was literally keep bleed up to get energy and spam fok even on max cp)
drowsy parcel
Its why i am still Blue color even though i am assassin onetrick now
limber lion
A Necro Assa onetrick even
limber lion
Yep for sure
cold rampart
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue
vestal wren
A Necro Assa onetrick even
how many fights is necro rly the play?
lords obv.
pantheon i guess
limber lion
That's honestly pretty much it. Maybe Rygelon as well.
solid venture
Could play necro on vigilant guardian but i play venthyr on it since my guild has omega aoe padders so I just pump boss
limber lion
Getting to spam SBS like crazy during add waves is pretty dank
Oh yeah forgot Guardian was a boss
that one too
for sure
it's pretty much a m+ encounter
without the restealth
hollow escarp
SD gauntlet
drowsy parcel
Rygelon is necro heaven
indigo mulch
I cant for the life of me do decent damage as sin on pantheon. Im just bad i guess. I see these froat mages slaming 25k dps while im struggling to do 14k lol
limber lion
Pantheon is a great fight, but I do have to emphasize that our 4-target is much much weaker than for some other specs
During Prog I was 2nd in p3 damage
during farm I'm like the 3rd or 2nd last
lmao
but then again I don't use Zoldyck anymore on Pantheon
native belfry
Cev, do we even use envenom in vendetta? Can hardly find the time gap to fit it . Also, reapply at 6 secs is only about 2nd garrote right?
limber lion
I Envenom maybe once or twice during Vend, that's it
limber lion
Cev, do we even use envenom in vendetta? Can hardly find the time gap to fit it ...
Doesn't matter which garrote it is, as long as you have it ready for that portion
rocky ruin
@limber lion for vent with 4pc is mfd a must or is vigor ok too?
native belfry
Thanks ❤️
limber lion
<@165215952479322112> for vent with 4pc is mfd a must or is vigor ok too?
As Venth you always play MFD
always
with and without 4p
I play it in M+ as well
Doesn't matter too much for the thrash, but doing bosses as Venth is a bit int without MFD
especially when we generally want to sync most things now as Venth
vestal wren
i rly like that mfd is so much better this xpac
cold rampart
i rly like that mfd is so much better this xpac
++
vestal wren
it felt rly dead as a talent before
frosty cedar
mfd is amazing
cold rampart
it felt rly dead as a talent before
It was good only at pvp
native belfry
Wasn't it 60 sec b4?
vestal wren
i know it did sim decent on dungeon slice, but nobody rly used it
cold rampart
I play it in M+ as well
Speaking of m+
Is MA good or subterfuge has more insane dmg?
limber lion
just play sub
either subterfuge or subtlety rogue
but not subtlety rogue with subterfuge
cold rampart
🤣🤣🤣🤣
hollow escarp
sub is indeed better, getting 3 silences with garrote feels good
limber lion
I do play Subterfuge though
cold rampart
Whats the rotation for single target with subterfuge ?
limber lion
gotta be a bit more specific than that
cold rampart
gotta be a bit more specific than that
You said we play subterfuge in m+
potent dagger
In enjoy more the burstier MA gameplay 😄
cold rampart
Whats the rotation for it when starting against a boss
limber lion
Whats the rotation for it when starting against a boss
so that's not what I was looking for
hollow dirge
In enjoy more the burstier MA gameplay 😄
especially when I get 2cp mutilate in ma window, with 40% crit baseline
cold rampart
do you have 4p or not?
Yes , venthyr
potent dagger
especially when I get 2cp mutilate in ma window, with 40% crit baseline
i'm a lucky bastard for crit , not for drops tough
limber lion
Yes , venthyr
assuming you have SnD up from previous pack - Gar - Muti - Flag - Rupt - MFD - CT - Vend - Shiv
cold rampart
assuming you have SnD up from previous pack - Gar - Muti - Flag - Rupt - MFD - C...
Then vanish
Garrote again ?
limber lion
Yes
cold rampart
Noice
pale dirge
CT is crimson?
limber lion
yes
pale dirge
Didn't think you ran it on Single targets
limber lion
trail mica
Can you add tier set items to Raidbots top gear, even if i don't have all 4?
limber lion
Talal was talking about m+
pale dirge
Can you add tier set items to Raidbots top gear, even if i don't have all 4?
You should be able to manually add the piece and item level afaik
opaque mauve
CT sims higher for me ST , has for a while
pale dirge
So on ST would you just try keep its uptime?
limber lion
Yes
pale dirge
👌
Also another pleb alt rogue question is it fine to just use 4 combo points for finishers etc
pale dirge
Yeh
warm drift
Lihuvim is a venth fight too?
limber lion
Ye
solid venture
Feels omega bad to play assa on lihuvim during prog when you need to keep cd's for the first big add
warm drift
That's what we do
zinc frost
@limber lion that’s it.. you’ve convinced me to go MFD in keys
warm drift
Probably gonna do that aswell
solid venture
And pumping vendetta into it feels so bad cuz u lose half of your vendetta
limber lion
Feels omega bad to play assa on lihuvim during prog when you need to keep cd's f...
That's why you don't.
You just send on the boss
warm drift
Tell that my rl
limber lion
If your team can't find damage to kill the adds without you sending cds on it, then something's wrong
bleak sky
add doesn't even live for vendetta duration
limber lion
Assa swapping to the add, setting up all bleeds and then hitting Vend will give you like 30k more damag
bleak sky
feels like trolling doing it on add
limber lion
very poggers
it is omegatrolling
and you should never do that
You should just send on the boss at all times
warm drift
Same 😂
limber lion
You need boss damage anyways later on and you throwing out multiple hundreds of thousands of damage out the window just to get 20k more damage on an add