assassination

[restive falcon]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aMQoXhn3NkGBG9faDtmDQc is my 255bloodoath ring with a socket a dps loss but

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oZMxjnbWBFVuApkbTwWPos at 272 it is a dps increase

i would go from 37%crit25%haste35% mastery to 35%crit30%haste30%mastery

[hollow river]

No break points

Just sim gear, run Droptimizer sims, etc

[restive falcon]

so just upgrade the bloodoath ring then to 272

cause im running the mythic ring from guardian

[hollow river]

If it sims at enough of an increase that you’re willing to spend the valor on it sure

[delicate smelt]

Sigil yes or no?

[restive falcon]

i mean i got 4k valor on my rogue

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[hollow river]

I’d would be sure you don’t want to farm other items and upgrade them first though

[delicate smelt]

it sims better than my other trinkets

[restive falcon]

im just holding it to use it

i got first sigil/phial already

[brazen zodiac]

just remmeber tw comes out next week

[hollow river]

4K valor is nothing tbf

[brazen zodiac]

might wanna save some valor for it

[restive falcon]

and i got 2 278 weapons

[brazen zodiac]

well arent u cool

lmfao

[hollow river]

Valor spends pretty quickly

[brazen zodiac]

pog

[hollow river]

No

[restive falcon]

ig i will just wait till vault then

[next dune]

I'll just upgrade this trinket here and...... Oh.....

[hollow river]

Then ya

[restive falcon]

and if i dont get a 278bloodoath or arachnid in vault i will upgrade

[hollow river]

[delicate smelt]

i thought its pretty shit trinket but sims gave me like 70dps more with him over my second best trinket.

[hollow river]

it's good

[limber lion]

Sigil bis

[amber fossil]

when simming for aoe, when do you use dungeon slice and when do you patchwork/4 boss/2min? my results vary quite a bit between the 2 methods.

[oak sky]

Dungeon slice is specifically for m+

4 boss patchwerk 2 min would pretty much just apply to pantheon

[amber fossil]

that's what I was thinking, but my results are very different, even tho the fights are close

[oak sky]

Theyre completely different and used for different purposes they should be different

And sims dont tell you exactly what damage you will do its more of a guideline for gearing and builds

[cold rampart]

where can i find venthyr rotation with 4set?

[brazen zodiac]

in the pins

[cold rampart]

!unity

[prisma monolith]

All slots are close in output.
The best non tier slots across all specs are Belt or Wrists.
The best possible slot is likely Hands, Legs or Head.
Use a simulation to evaluate for your gear situation.

[cold rampart]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Crit >= Haste > Vers > Mastery
Note: Having a frost set equipped makes crit much better, usually making it your best stat by a good margin.

[cold rampart]

!cache

[prisma monolith]

Cache of Acquired Treasures usage:
Axe is always the strongest weapon.
Note: The Weapon rotates every 12 seconds in the order Sword -> Axe -> Wand

[royal cliff]

hey guys, sin rogue alt--you all using zoldyck in m+?

[main monolith]

[limber lion]

Duskwalkers with 4p, Zoldyck without

[royal cliff]

okay got it

thanks!

[strange silo]

What would our best endurance conduit be with nadja? recuperator or nimble fingers?

[frosty cedar]

Recuperator is great

[strange silo]

yea i like it too but nimble fingers has really good on demand healing i guess

[oak sky]

recuperator adds up

[slow marsh]

recup but nimble fingers is almost a must have just for feint

[ebon notch]

does halondrus trinket damage get increased by shiv?

[slow marsh]

does flayedwing trinket

[ebon notch]

idek what that is

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[slow marsh]

bis trinket froom necro wake

[ebon notch]

oh its that turbo garbage one

smh

[slow marsh]

turbo bis *

[ebon notch]

it seems like all our best trinkets are on use

double on use in my future or what

[slow marsh]

probably unless you get vault phial

also depends on your cov

since it changes depending on which of the three you play

[ebon notch]

venth

for assa

obvs

i thinking probably cache and sigil?

[slow marsh]

if you play venth for everything then cache is bis

idk iabout sigil vs vaul phial

but probs close

[ebon notch]

sigil is the highest trinket for us no?

at max ilvl

[slow marsh]

na cache is better

for venth

it's kinda cringe

but seems to ggo along with the theme

[ebon notch]

idm cache tbh

but i wish i could use iqd

[slow marsh]

me either

[ebon notch]

without it being completely cringe

sigil imo is just a better iqd

that doesnt give mana

or heal

i might go for sigil shadowgrasp or smth

[slow marsh]

i'm going for cache sgt

[cold rampart]

Where and when do we need to play necro?

[slow marsh]

if there's aoe

and you have the luxury of swapping

and/or you can manage sbs well

[cold rampart]

Sbs?

[zinc frost]

[ebon notch]

huh

[cold rampart]

I have zero knowledge about necro and it's the only covenant I didn't touch

Is it bad to stay vethyr on raid or m+?

[ebon notch]

also @slow marsh why is faulty countermeasure simming so bad on bloodmallet and raidbots

[slow marsh]

wym iot's like top 5

[versed mica]

I'm assuming 272 iqd is better than a heroic cache trinket yeah?

[ebon notch]

ill find the droptimizer

[versed mica]

My guild don't run mythic raid

[ebon notch]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mGosmd4V6E4A3SWfnVniTN

is it cause its comparing it to cache or what

[slow marsh]

yeah cache is just better

[cold rampart]

In m+ we go necro or venthyr?

[ebon notch]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jS1bgWfK2bGcL67DVq25wb

got 2 upgrades today

[slow marsh]

hhuge

i need a 278

[ebon notch]

278 what

[slow marsh]

dag

[ebon notch]

ahh ye

[solar stump]

this upsets me greatly

[novel arrow]

is there a document or something that collects info on what rogues can do on boss fights? Cloak mechanics feint stuff etc?

[slow marsh]

!bos

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[ebon notch]

why

[solar stump]

600 more sim dps than me rn 😂

[ebon notch]

when i get sigil i go through the roof

i did 16.3k on desausage today

[solar stump]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uhxV3S9LoeYGj1AjXZgAan

I reached the miserable point of "get some mastery"

[oak sky]

get me a phial dude

[ebon notch]

sim theotar with the haste tea custom line

[slow marsh]

same

[ebon notch]

itll go up to 15k

[solar stump]

thats something

[ebon notch]

shadowlands.party_favor_type="haste"

[solar stump]

but I also have a sigil

[solar stump]

come EU we fix you up brother

[ebon notch]

next week when you can craft tier on chest you will have a lot of different gear options

can swap out some of the 259 stuff

[solar stump]

yeah i got that literally today

[cold rampart]

.

[halcyon zealot]

you prob wanna play necro with zoldycks if u dont have 4pc and necro with duskwalkers if u do have 4pc

[cold rampart]

I have 4pc put I done have necro

[halcyon zealot]

renown is really really fast now

[cold rampart]

So necro is bis for m+?

[halcyon zealot]

well.. you should play venth sub but yeah if u wanna play assa go necro

[slow marsh]

you can play venth sin tbh

[ebon notch]

i did it last tier

[slow marsh]

it plays more into sin's 4p

since you're stuck on one target anyways

[ebon notch]

@slow marsh https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rAxaXGtdPM6bYtDHcp3fck

its a decrease over phial??

the faulty countermeasure

[cold rampart]

Ik but what about m+

[halcyon zealot]

he was talkin bout m+

[cold rampart]

I guess am lvling my necro then

Spam torghast right?

Or story line then torghast

[ebon notch]

torghast first

because storyline is guaranteed renown

[slow marsh]

yeah i was talking about m+

necro is more overall if you pad on everything but if you are playing sin it's probably for prio damage and venth makes it easier to execute in some twisted way - in my opinion

could also just play nf, also a valid option

[mossy moon]

before vendetta goes off do you go for one more rupture or CT?

[ebon notch]

Rupture

[mossy moon]

aitt

[halcyon zealot]

yeah its a decrease for me over phial too, the CoS ring however.. 170 dps increase at 272 socketed lmfao

[hollow river]

pogchamp

[viscid spear]

Fine, c'mere

[ebon notch]

It would be pogchamp if I had anything else to spend Valor on

[strange python]

do you just perma refresh dots on pandemic in 4p vendetta

trying to play sin again after getting traumatized on lords..

[normal mist]

What else can we do xD

[strange python]

like

refresh before dot falls off instead

of pandemic

idk

[normal mist]

If you envenom like once, something is gonna fall off

Atleast that's my experience

[strange python]

idk man im playing this like actual dog shit

[normal mist]

I just have 4/4 for like 7/8 hours lol, but all I did was vendetta and refresh dots, especially ct that lasts like 7 seconds

Mfd helps a lot

[strange python]

I want to practice in like normal but pugs are so garbage

I don't trust anyone to do lords properly on normal

Barely killed Ryg cause people just wouldnt soak

[slow marsh]

Yes refresh in pandemic makes it a lot easier

[strange python]

alright thanks

[viscid spear]

I'm le sad

[mortal pike]

Is there any argument to be made for our execute damage on prototype

as a reason to not be sat rofl

[ebon notch]

i mean

theoretically assa pumps the boss

especially since the bosses are closer to 30% in p3 now post nerf

but you have to play like a robot

its kinda hard to argue for

[hollow river]

sub does more p3 damage anyway doesn't it

and it's like 10x easier to play on 4 targets

[ebon notch]

nah it did more pre nerf

cause you were in p3 longer

most of subs damage is there

[hollow river]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[strange python]

Why is venth dh just easier sin rogue -,-

[ebon notch]

its easier but their damage is fairly capped

outside of rabid eyebeam resets

your brand is gonna do the same damage most of the time

[strange python]

Keeping brand up on pantheon seems so much easier then having to deal with a billion bleed plus 100% faster ticking vendetta target

[hollow river]

pretty sure sin does a good bit more damage than dh on that fight doesn't it?

[strange python]

No clue

I thought they were around the same

But that was a while ago

I’m perma sat regardless cause I can’t play the class anymore lmao

[hollow river]

i mean me and other rogue also sat

guild just killed it a few min ago

[strange python]

Mine just started it

[hollow river]

think we're in for lihuvim though

and then halondrus ofc

[strange python]

I’m fucking depressed cause I just can’t play rogue now lol, I think I can play fine in ST assa but that’s about it

[hollow river]

have you tried sub?

it's pretty nifty

[strange python]

I have but PV stacks plus anima charge was kinda overwhelming for my small brain

[hollow river]

just practice without PV at first

[strange python]

it was either between doing rotation or doing mechanics for the few bosses I was in for so I didn’t want to grief

[hollow river]

then add in PV once you're used to Kyrian a bit

[wide ridge]

whats pv again

[strange python]

I got like .. two blue mythics parses

[hollow river]

perforated veins conduit

[strange python]

Lmao

[hollow river]

for sub

[wide ridge]

ah

pv is meta for sub?

[hollow river]

in raid yeah

[wide ridge]

is that the shadowstrike>backstab conduit?

[hollow river]

backstab damage

but you build stacks from strikes yes

[wide ridge]

hm

interesting

[hollow river]

kyrian sub plays PV+DD+SS conduits

[strange python]

We also have two other sub rogues that just play sub, I was sin only

[hollow river]

sin to me just feels kinda meh this tier

[strange python]

And I’m so behind them learning the spec now

[hollow river]

good on a couple bosses but i'm not in for those anyway

just gotta practice, do keys and hit target dummies

[strange python]

I’ve been doing keys and hitting dummies

But keys are venthyr

[hollow river]

ah ye true

[strange python]

And dummies just don’t .. work the same, I can concentrate on the rotation

I’m thinking it was just the nature of the boss I did

Skolex 1 mess up will just kill you and grief the whole raid

Other fights have more time to relax

[solid mica]

what cov we play on lords with the change to the fight now?

still necro?

[clear finch]

Necro bb

[solid mica]

thanks!

[ebon notch]

ok so with cache 278 and 272 phial

literally no other trinket is a direct upgrade right now

because theyre double on use

with shadowgrasp/iqd i simmed it at 272 because you upgrade to that obvs

theres no shot im at my bis rn

even sigil isnt simming higher

[oak sky]

did you sim 278 sigil for cache

[ebon notch]

ye

[oak sky]

how dead is your haste

[ebon notch]

23%

mastery is outsimming it

[mortal pike]

sigil doesnt sim well for me sadge

[bitter aurora]

Couldn’t find it in faqs or pin, what weapon for cache?

In st

[ebon notch]

axe

[rotund oak]

sigil is good only with 4p,it was 360dps less for me b4 4p and 403more after

less than FCM

[obtuse robin]

does ss work on sausage halo

[rotund oak]

Ive also got a question

why Seli pumps so hard on Halondrus mythic

and he is necro

was watching him y'day on progress he was massive ST

isnt supposed venthyr to just be better

ik he doesnt like it but makes no sense

[ebon notch]

how much is massive

[rotund oak]

13.5-14k everypull

easily done

[ebon notch]

this isnt massive

as sub 14k is a bad pull

on halondrus

[rotund oak]

he was assa

what sub,we are talking assa

😄

[ebon notch]

yeah my assa sims the same as my sub

[rotund oak]

yeah but do u do that on progress each pull on halondrus

as necro?

idk,it looks pretty massive to me

[grim tangle]

well you can see his logs and he's doing like 12k at best

but I'm pretty sure he was hardcore stopping damage

so I'm not sure what you're talking about

[rotund oak]

he took sometime the laed and he was calling stuff

im watching him like 3 days now

[grim tangle]

yeah I know he's calling stuff

he's not doing 14k

[rotund oak]

maybe i need glasses or something coz i was watching those details

but ill check the graphs just to be sure

[warm drift]

Hey, do we delay shiv in the opener as Nf? Isn't it sepsis into shiv? Did a quicksim and got confused by what it did.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/acKNzryEMNXAvxCxFJBeYX here the sim. Don't know if i did it wrong

[willow vine]

is it normal to sim higher as assass than sub? LOL

4P no EON

[ebon notch]

thats kinda fucked

[warm drift]

Also it's delyaing the second vendetta

[ebon notch]

im trying to find the info on opener

sorry

[ebon notch]

#assassination message

so your opener should be (off the top of my head)

garrote>snd>ambush>rupture>vend>shiv>sepsis>vanish>garrote>ambush>ambush>rupture

something like this

[warm drift]

So it's kindy off?

Oh okay so it's holding either ven or sepsis sometimes

[ebon notch]

yeah you just send vendetta/sepsis on cd

theres a very clear cycle to follow

and you sync up every other sepsis with every 3rd vend

[willow vine]

!ma

Is there an opener somewhere for MA?>

nvm i read over it in pins lol

[balmy condor]

Hol up

That means fae is under simming

THERE MAY YET BE HOPE BOYS

It’s probably not enough to catch venthyr tho

[balmy condor]

@fleet anchor @limber lion I’m still at work for a while idk if you guys wanna look at it before me tomorrow but the shiv in the opener is very stupid and I need the hopium for fae sims pls send help I promise I’ll never complain about venthyr again

[fleet anchor]

I mean this is specifically with CT I presume

When I was testing the CT Shiv changes I did test against NF and there weren't any losses but I can take another look

I dunno if CT ST really comes out ahead for NF yet though?

[ebon notch]

The nf opener looks completely fucked btw

Like sepsis isn't being buffed by shiv AT ALL

[oak sky]

would make more sense to sepsis inside vendetta

[ebon notch]

And it's barely being buffed by vendetta

[oak sky]

inside vendetta shiv

like

after

[ebon notch]

Yeah it's completely fucking the opener

I have no idea how much gain this will realise over a 5 min fight tho

[oak sky]

most logical is like gar snd ambush mut rupture vendetta shiv sepsis

[ebon notch]

We wait for the corrections ig

[oak sky]

idk where ct would fit in there

[fleet anchor]

I mean the order doesn't matter, this is just conditional logic or not. Either CT needs to be sooner or Shiv should ignore CT condition for NF is all

[ebon notch]

Whisp should be less of a baby tho

[fleet anchor]

I'll take a look I guess

[oak sky]

right

[oak sky]

he just has a raging hate boner for mfd

[fleet anchor]

Probably can just bail on the CT condition for NF for now

[ebon notch]

He needs a nice macro

[brave gazelle]

Understandable

[oak sky]

oh nooooo a button that has synergy with my covenant ability but i get less energy when my tier set already makes me overcap whatever will i do

[fleet anchor]

Might just split the NF Shiv line entirely at this point

[brave gazelle]

I need less buttons for my tiny noggin

[oak sky]

sin already presses one of the least number of buttons

🤔

[brave gazelle]

Exactly

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

If it's gonna bail on the CT condition in the middle it essentially forks now

[oak sky]

.1% NF gains inc

[balmy condor]

I’m gonna rig the sim myself I swear to god

Fae to the top

It’s happening

[fleet anchor]

By the looks of it CT and PB are pretty much equalish for NF I guess

So not really sure there are any relative gains vs. other Covenants here 😛

[balmy condor]

RISING TO THE TOP

NEVER STOP RISING

TO

THE

TOP

[ebon notch]

Great so now we get nerfed and nf is inflated

Good shit whisp

[balmy condor]

We got nerfed?

[ebon notch]

We will if you rig the sims

[fleet anchor]

Let me put some hotfixes in

[balmy condor]

No no, I’m just rigging it to put venth in the dirt

[oak sky]

be cf
job is to post about optimal strats
pretends venth shenanigans don't exist

[spice spire]

He’s pulling a hunter

The true APL will be locked behind his Patreon

[oak sky]

ill pay for it

but not for the APL

😳

[spice spire]

[oak sky]

i want that catbussy

[spice spire]

Bro?

[slow marsh]

I mean it's full feelycraft but I felt like I was slamming harder as NF than venth at least with the first couple sets of cds

[rotund oak]

Ive gone hitting the dummy for a while and i must be missing something.Playign theotar 3p and mfd-ct.Im going on Muti=>snd=>muti=>garrote=>flag=>rupture=>mfd=>CT=>VD=>Shiv but im thinking what is best to do afterwards,thus what talent should i use,subter or MA.With subter we should go into vanish=>muti=>double gar=>rupture=>mfd=>CT to reapply all bleeds while in MA we should vanish into muti=>envenom dont we?

[oak sky]

MA

with subterfuge you only do 1 garrote and the rest ambush

[fleet anchor]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/08655dba019146c5babd55d2142d330a47fc4788

[rotund oak]

wait what

[fleet anchor]

Alright, all fixed I guess. But you can still complain about Venthyr.

I don't like Venthyr

[slow marsh]

Also double gar is troll but idk if it's good if you're already in vendetta or not because it's technically an ambush vs 2 gar ticks in shiv

[oak sky]

but subterfuge isnt a thing for venth

soooo

[fleet anchor]

You're supposed to find Necrolord gains

[oak sky]

necro is aoe and cleave only

cant make it good in st

impossible

[slow marsh]

I mean it'd be the same for NF or necro

Just what is double gar inside of vend + shiv vs ambush

[rotund oak]

So its MA into vanish=>muti=>reapplying bleeds or envenom if bleeds are rolling

[oak sky]

opener usually looks like

[balmy condor]

I can get behind this

[oak sky]

mut snd mut gar venth rupture mfd ct vendetta shiv vanish mut envenom mut ct

[balmy condor]

My hatred for mfd venth haste snapshotting trumps any nonsense necro can throw at me

I’ll work on kyrian gains

[slow marsh]

What does Necro have to beat

[rotund oak]

tyty

[slow marsh]

300 dps?

[oak sky]

lol necro is like 1k back isnt it

[rotund oak]

more

[slow marsh]

NNa 500 at most

[rotund oak]

cev says its more than 1k

[slow marsh]

Yeah well

[rotund oak]

After running the numbers multiple times and having played both covenants on multiple boss encounters, I think that with Venthyr being so far ahead of Necrolord in single target/small cleave (1.5k in ST), Venthyr will be the go-to spec for most bosses.

[nova flax]

Mut snd mut garrote vanish respec sub dance blades symbols strike strike evisc strike strike evisc strike strike evisc strrikestrikeeviscstrikestrikeevisc

[rotund oak]

thats on pins^^

[oak sky]

ok but venth does the same damage as the respec and this adds nothing productive to the chat

[rotund oak]

😂

[oak sky]

you forgot the prepull

[nova flax]

Unlike you. Sokka has a sense of humor.

[oak sky]

lmao

[fleet anchor]

I'm honestly not totally sure if it's possible to move CT up higher for the NF opener without fucking up the bonk amp or risking losing SnD.. it's quite the juggle at the start, but maybe it's possible to get it earlier. Not sure.

[oak sky]

you must not hang out here a lot

i used to get warnings for being off topic too much

[rotund oak]

Kojistream for apl testing

people has spoken

[slow marsh]

You have to use mfd I think

[fleet anchor]

No, people would see me get angry too frequently

[slow marsh]

Which defeats the point

[spice spire]

When you move away from venthyr to escape mfd just to have nf mfd gains

[oak sky]

yo lets find kyrian mfd gains

[spice spire]

I literally almost muted you for that one king

(I didn’t)

[oak sky]

[nova flax]

I want some hidden blades gains

[oak sky]

we found them

its called 30% fok buff

[slow marsh]

They need to buff fok by another 500% for hidden blades tech

[oak sky]

wdym

fok is sick now

[spice spire]

You fok at 3

Huge

[rotund oak]

i usually fok at 4a.m

then at night again

[spice spire]

Boo

[rotund oak]

thats twice a day

[fleet anchor]

Looks like it's possible to get it a bit higher in the Vendetta by lowering the emergency SnD Envenom to dangerously low levels

[rotund oak]

[warm drift]

Thank you for looking at it btw! My mistake siming with CT i guess

[fleet anchor]

But it's DPS neutral

So I don't really see a point there

[balmy condor]

Getting angry is my thing

[nova flax]

I fok on 2 targets outside of dance

[spice spire]

Hol up

[nova flax]

[spice spire]

I think I found why sub 2t sucks

[balmy condor]

I fok your mother with 2 balls all night

[brave gazelle]

Im loyal I only fok 1 target sorry boys

[spice spire]

Amen

Mutilate is for sinners

[oak sky]

shadowstrike is life

[nova flax]

Fok dn

[spice spire]

Equip heavy weapons and fok as a builder

[ebon notch]

Let's just become sub 2.0 channel

Guys rupture doesn't give me energy anymore

Why

[spice spire]

Become?

[fleet anchor]

Since FoK got buffed by 30% that means Hidden Blades also got buffed by 30%. So it's 1.3x 0.3% in ST = 0.4% now. Pretty sweet.

[balmy condor]

Get ‘em hot in the shower before I do it, then just dip into your mom a couple times turn her into a cup of tea

Cry about it bozo

[ebon notch]

I like your funny words magic man

[spice spire]

The duality of man

[ebon notch]

Ur off the deep end on god

[nova flax]

Whispyr sounding down egregious rn

[ebon notch]

Bowling ball to the head frfr

[balmy condor]

On cap no god bro

[ebon notch]

XD

Broken

Whisps internal APL is seething rn

[fleet anchor]

I enjoy the fact that even with full Hidden Blades stacks

[balmy condor]

I had to accept venth will always be best covenant and I’m pounding sand right now dude

[fleet anchor]

FoK still only hits for 9.6k

lol

[balmy condor]

Dilating in my sleep

Open my eyes they look like saucers

[ebon notch]

Also why tf do you get your balls hot in the shower

[brave gazelle]

Pov: you play venthr too long

[ebon notch]

I just realised

[balmy condor]

Cause I don’t shower with cold water like a pyschopath

[ebon notch]

Like that must be mega uncomfortable for you and your future kids

[thin trout]

is venthyrr iqs so good because of the haste?

[ebon notch]

I've never gotten in a shower with the intent to checks notes make my balls hot

[brave gazelle]

Fok pvp one shot dream lives?

[balmy condor]

Weird way to tell people you don’t wash your balls

[ebon notch]

WASHING THEM ISNT THE SAME AS MAKING THEM HOT

[spice spire]

Yes. Snapshotting haste is a thing the 4p enables

[ebon notch]

Also your mom likes them musty

[balmy condor]

It’s a process broski

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

True, I’ve seen her boyfriends

[ebon notch]

She's an intimate part of that process

[fleet anchor]

Mutilate average damage 3465. FoK with Hidden Blades 9630 with 19-20 stacks.
40 seconds of waiting for buff stacks to gain 6165 damage.
Sweet 150 dps talent.

[brave gazelle]

Real men use mint shampoo on their balls to keep them cool

[ebon notch]

What

[rotund oak]

mom swinger party

[marble hemlock]

yeah but thats on like EACH Target

thats massive dam

[fleet anchor]

yuge

[slow marsh]

Actually this NF apl seems like it could be better unironically but maybe just by like 50dps or something

[marble hemlock]

bet you didnt even have conduit at max ilvl

[spice spire]

No diminishing returns, trust

[ebon notch]

If we can somehow make single target like more than one single target then fok is huge on god

[balmy condor]

I’ve gone through 4 step dads and like 7 boyfriends homie you can’t hurt me

[ebon notch]

You get a free college fund with the next one

[fleet anchor]

Crimson Tempest does 19.6k per cast 🤣

[balmy condor]

Never got my stamp card

[ebon notch]

How did you know their balls were musty tho

[fleet anchor]

Compared to 13k for Envenom. So you get roughly the same damage per cast gain as Hidden Blades

In one cast

Not having to wait 20s

😄

[slow marsh]

Move sepsis down into after vend and it's better?

[fleet anchor]

Truly a magnificent talent

[spice spire]

Rogue talents are top tier

No duds here

[fleet anchor]

No, you wouldn't get Dreamweaver Haste buff

[ebon notch]

Every talent is viable guys 🧢

[balmy condor]

Every talent sucks

So every talent is viable

[ebon notch]

Blizzard is genius

[spice spire]

Alacrity exists

[slow marsh]

So then sepsis right before vend instead of 4 seconds maybe?

[spice spire]

Checkmate

[ebon notch]

Alacrity should be baseline

[fleet anchor]

You would need at least 1 global gap to get proper snapshots registered

[ebon notch]

Is that how long I have to wait with venth snapshotting?

I've been giving it between .5-1 seconds

[fleet anchor]

Technically you're waiting for the DoT tick

But it's about that

[slow marsh]

Sure but I think wasting 4s of sepsis is worse esp on open with sigil no?

[balmy condor]

Time to install miks scrolling battle text again

[ebon notch]

Yeah but one global gap is kinda long no

[balmy condor]

[ebon notch]

Who is mik

[spice spire]

[naive rock]

Question with the buffs this week how is sin compared to sub?

[ebon notch]

I do love his battle text

[balmy condor]

Buff did nothing

[fleet anchor]

Also you need to get CP to cast Rupture anyway

[ebon notch]

No buffs

[fleet anchor]

If you didn't cast Sepsis you'd need another Mutilate

[rotund oak]

mom joke inc

[naive rock]

get me out of the sub life feels bad.... I want to play outlaw or sin

[slow marsh]

But you muti anyways. Idk if I wasn't on mobile I'd just run it myself but I should go to sleep anyways

[ebon notch]

My sin sim is within 20 dps

The dream is there

[balmy condor]

Guy who made an addon to put the combat numbers in a scroll format and fill your screen with useless junk

[ebon notch]

You just have to reach out and grab it

[balmy condor]

Not in dungeons it’s not

[ebon notch]

Yeah but what are his hopes and dreams

[balmy condor]

[thin trout]

do we wan tto align our IQD (haste) with flaggelation or vendetta? i know it's just 2 cds difference but still

[balmy condor]

Idk probably making an addon worth a fuck

[ebon notch]

You've never even stepped foot in a dungeon don't lie

[ebon notch]

[balmy condor]

IM 2300 IO

[slow marsh]

They're both the same

[balmy condor]

EXCUSE YOU

[ebon notch]

Whisp why do I get the feeling you're as fried as I am rn

[slow marsh]

But you want to iqd before the vend

[balmy condor]

I DO MY WEEKLY RAT KEYS

[slow marsh]

Like 2 s before

[ebon notch]

How do I stop iqd from giving crit

[brave gazelle]

Someone make exsang viable thanks

[ebon notch]

No want crit only haste

[gusty mirage]

get more haste

obviously

[marble hemlock]

every key you do is a rat key

[slow marsh]

Git gud

[thin trout]

so dont macro it into vendetta but more like flaggelation?

[ebon notch]

I can't get more haste I need my crit

[gusty mirage]

no you don't

[slow marsh]

Don't macro it to anything

[ebon notch]

Sim tell me keep crit

Don't lie to me oxi

[slow marsh]

You want to flag finish mfd finish trinket vendetta shiv

[spice spire]

Based

[balmy condor]

If only I were EU we could do double rogue keys and I could fall asleep in your arms

[spice spire]

Holy fuck

[thin trout]

ah like that thanks

[ebon notch]

Whatever top gear tells me matters matters

Checkmate bozo

[thin trout]

whats the difference between pressing it after CT and macroing it to vendetta tho? just wondering

[slow marsh]

Top gear told me to put one mastery gem in helm slot. If only oshoi was here to see it

[gusty mirage]

my top gear tells me to play sub

unlucky

[spice spire]

You shut your mouth

[fleet anchor]

This is also my problem

[spice spire]

You will not say the m word in this glorious channel

[gusty mirage]

I find casino royale to be more enjoyable than exsang

go in expecting no procs, end up pleasantly surprised when you hit the jackpot

[fleet anchor]

I seem to be cursed to never have a gear set that comes together for Assassination actually being good

[slow marsh]

Vendetta 4p is cringe and snapshots but bleeds update on 2nd tick so you want to hit trinket and let them tick once to make sure it's buffed when vend sucks it off

[ebon notch]

Venth sin too hard

L

[fleet anchor]

And then I can't really justify taking like Sigils or Haste shit from other people who need it for their main spec

If I'm mostly playing Sub

[gusty mirage]

venthyr sin sims 140 dps less than sub

but okay

[fleet anchor]

It's a vicious cycle

[ebon notch]

20 less for me

[gusty mirage]

"too hard" equals the most degenerate shit ever

[ebon notch]

It was a joke

[thin trout]

ah good to know, looks like i need make another hotkey then 🙂

[gusty mirage]

CT single target & mfd & ma

[ebon notch]

Hence the L that you took

[fleet anchor]

Mythic Sigil drops and I see like 8 people need it for MS

[slow marsh]

Ye unfort but it's for the best

[fleet anchor]

And I want to say I need it

But that would be lame of me

[gusty mirage]

the L I took is unblocking you in the first place daps

[ebon notch]

Oof

[slow marsh]

Cache is better anyways for venth so I mean

[spice spire]

[slow marsh]

Shrug

[fleet anchor]

Cache would be better to get yeah since it's good for both

[slow marsh]

Like a mythic cache is +200 over my heroic and a mythic sigil is only 175

[fleet anchor]

Wish Sigil was a little better for Sub

But it's fairly poopy

[slow marsh]

If sub didn't already hard stack vers

[ebon notch]

Sigil refuses to outsim cache for me

[tulip kernel]

so are people just not doing NF Ass rogue anymore?

[slow marsh]

If you sim sin as NF or necro sigil shoots up

[slow marsh]

I am for lihuvium cuz fuck that boss

[spice spire]

Yeah sigil major stonks for NL.
Cache just going sicko mode for venthyr

[ebon notch]

I was actually guilt tripped into playing sub

[fleet anchor]

Also really, you know the main thing that makes me sad about Assassination

[slow marsh]

But yeah venth is mostly better rn until we can find gains to play NF or necro better

[fleet anchor]

I'm addicted to double Shadowstep this raid

[vestal wren]

try simming for 2 targets as necro

[slow marsh]

Double step is too good

[fleet anchor]

Shadowstep is stupidly good on so many fights this tier

[slow marsh]

My raid told me to hold CDs for add and I'm like you're trolling

[spice spire]

There are way too many fights where double step is bonkers

[slow marsh]

So I swapped korayn

[fleet anchor]

I mean holding CDs for alcoves is pretty common since it's the only damage check in the fight

[ebon notch]

Bribed the priest to grip me hahaa

[fleet anchor]

Boss HP is totally whatever

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

Moadmoad is a nice healer

[slow marsh]

True but it's doable without holding too so like why ya know

[fleet anchor]

I only held CDs on the opener for the first split alcove

The others are easy enough already

[vestal wren]

just argue with m+.
You NEED it for your weekly keys

[slow marsh]

Even if I hold. A sin rogue is not pumping much into that thing in 10s

[fleet anchor]

The first one where most guilds split is just critical because the check is super tight

even if shit specs use shit CDs

that's still the difference usually

The later ones are not really a problem though

[slow marsh]

Fair. My logic was just that we were killing it fine with me cding boss on pull and I could just shiv the add

[brave gazelle]

Isn't cache better tho?

[fleet anchor]

Boss damage is honestly just super meaningless

[slow marsh]

But my parse Koji

[rotund oak]

wait what how is boss dam meaningless

[ebon notch]

Shiv and MFD honestly

[fleet anchor]

Your parse will be determined based on how many tryhard AoEs you have in your guild that kill the shitter adds quickly or not 🤣

[ebon notch]

If you fuck up the check you don't kill the boss

[slow marsh]

For lihuvium specifically boss dam isn't the check to meet

[ebon notch]

If you don't burst on pull you can still kill boss

[rotund oak]

well yeah that shouldnt translate to that though

[fleet anchor]

Yeah the boss DPS check is super easy

[rotund oak]

coz every ounce of boss dam matters,even the way it comes

[fleet anchor]

You have tons of leeway in the last boss damage "phase" before the following alcove

[slow marsh]

I mean sure, which is why locks get to cd on pull right

[fleet anchor]

It's not even a remotely tight DPS check

[ebon notch]

Boss damage on pull is irrelevant tho as long as you mee the first check

After that it's fine

[fleet anchor]

Alcoves failing is an instant wipe

[slow marsh]

And my argument is going to be that locks cd on pull and I keep up with them on pull and also have cdr leggo so why can't I cd on pull otherwise I'll just play sub

[vestal wren]

unsure, its a very interessting trinket for sure and it can do insane damage in massive aoe pulls.
But other than that it also needs to have the correct weapon align to your pulls and its unclear if the time you save my killing the aoe pack quicker is rly making a lot of diffrence for key timers

[fleet anchor]

Lust is often moved to the middle of the fight somewhere anyway

So the boss opener is whatever

[slow marsh]

Cache has some added value for sin as well since the haste buff isn't troll even if not necessarily ideal

[vestal wren]

sin could probably pop it on cd

and it makes not a lot of diffrence

[slow marsh]

Ehhh just don't use wand

[vestal wren]

sub, not so much

was wand that bad, i might remember it incorrectly

[fleet anchor]

Haste buff is really kinda awkward for Assassination though

[slow marsh]

Being able to use 2/3 options mostly on cd is nice tho

[fleet anchor]

Hard to sync up with the snapshotting mechanics

[slow marsh]

I haven't had much an issue with it

[fleet anchor]

Often can be totally wasted

[slow marsh]

You don't wait for sword but if it's there when flagging then I hit

Which it's there often

[brave gazelle]

Wands good for sub on St if no venth I think?

[vestal wren]

yes

wand is marginal better, apl will use wand at some point if we push the apl update for it ^^ (on sub)

[slow marsh]

Cache is just weird to sim cuz you can't guarantee lineups that's true

[fleet anchor]

Honestly since Flag increases the damage of the DoT from it both being hasted and affected by the Vers I'm not even sure that's the best case for the Haste buff but idk

I didn't have too much luck getting Sword to come out ahead

[slow marsh]

Could be. I'd be interested to see a sim of the haste snap with flag before vend vs axe but also I'm sure that's annoying to sim

[fleet anchor]

Likely need to conditionally be ok with both since the timing windows are specific

[slow marsh]

Yeah I mean in practice that's how I play it. Either way it's been a fun trinket to use for me

[vestal wren]

probably would be more of a special case than the usual use

"if stuff align, use sword, if not, stay with axe" kind of

but would need to test

[slow marsh]

Well like I just want to know if having the "God draw" of sword on flag use before hitting vend is even a God draw or just a feelycraft thing

Or if just hard focusing axe really is the way to go

[fleet anchor]

If I have some time I may look at it again

I haven't tested too many things with it since the Vendetta/Shiv changes

[brave gazelle]

Seeing 100%+ haste with the sword buff is kinda pog tho

Idk if its practical but

[misty holly]

Go void elf. Poor mans double shadowstep!

[strange python]

This is why I'm still sub on lihuvim. No point going sin if RL is gonna mandate holding CDs and also the alcove doesn't live long enough for either CD

[slow marsh]

Ye I mean like I said I'll just go korayn and have shiv for it and it'll be fine. Prob do about the same damage xD

[strange python]

You're playing nf?

[slow marsh]

I saved for a couple pulls and it dies before sepsis even expires it's way too cringe

Yeah

Only for that boss rn

Just because of how motes and timings and such work

Also bis korayn fight

[strange python]

Tbh sub just feels easier this raid. I can just set to mikanikos and forget about it till we're done

The variance and rng in sub suck but better than changing covs every fight

[slow marsh]

Yeah I just kinda hate sub even tho I play it perfectly fine

I was hoping to play sin / outlaw this tier but yeah

[strange python]

I don't like the sub 4set, but I also don't love the current sin playstyle

Honestly just wish I was a warrior this tier

[slow marsh]

I'm not a fan of how they took sin cleave niche and trashed it

[vestal wren]

i would also prefere a earlier iteration of sub gameplay wise

i mean, the current one is okay-ish just not what i prefere

[strange python]

I don't love that 99% of sub is the ER mini game rn

[slow marsh]

I mean it's not but yeah

[strange python]

The only other part of the kit that takes any attention is the upkeep buffs

I mean for people who have played sub for more than 2 weeks, not overcapping and the other parts of the kit aren't hard.

[slow marsh]

The hardest part about sub imo is just not tunneling animacharged

[vestal wren]

sub has:

• PV minigame
• ER minigame
• Proc roulette what means "reactive" gameplay

[slow marsh]

Even 4p procs are fine as long as you're not playing nado

[strange python]

Animacharged tunneling ain't bad if you're out of dance and symbols

[slow marsh]

If I'm being totally honest I don't like sub because of BP and that's about it

[vestal wren]

animacharged cp can be quite annoying due to shb uptime, sht procs, etc

[slow marsh]

Everything else is fine

[strange python]

Just don't do keys

[vestal wren]

i don't hate BP

[strange python]

I think in 90% of my pulls now I never hit the 2cp charge because of blades uptime

[vestal wren]

it allows more free movement in aoe

what is rly good

even if it is gameplay wise a bit boring

[slow marsh]

Like if you actually funnel as sub (which feels good obviously) you still get dumpstered by the ding dongs running full aoe builds with 40% of their dam as black powder

And I just cba with that kind of gameplay

[strange python]

Don't you call me a ding ding

Ding dong

[vestal wren]

thats just nature of logs

[strange python]

I do keys exclusively for the flame I get from angry tanks who only realize after the dungeon that my damage is all BP.

Kidney shot would be a waste of a potential BP.

[slow marsh]

I mean sadly I'm kinda forced to play sub in keys so I know full and well how it is

[strange python]

Necro sin keys are perfectly fine tho

[slow marsh]

It's just the principle of it.

[strange python]

I did my 20s on em

Honestly in pugs I do more as Necro sin than I do as sub

[vestal wren]

all 3 specs are probably fine for 20s

[strange python]

Because pulls are small and slow

[vestal wren]

spec rly starts to matter once you push to the higher end

[thin trout]

vendetta haste snaps bleeds right, how do you guys not cuck up and overwrite your bleeds with non vendettad bleeds because you aer so used to applying them when u see your plater tell you to reapply them =p

[slow marsh]

Ye I mean you can afk and run 15 weeklies sure but it's also the perception too

[vestal wren]

and the "as high as possible" group will obv. always play what is best

[slow marsh]

It's so tiring getting asked over and over 'oh I see you play assa, do you play sub at all?'

[strange python]

No one knows if I'm sin or sub in a pug till we start, then they're always surprised at the 15k

[vestal wren]

but idk, we act like this is something unexpected

[slow marsh]

It's not unexpected which is almost more annoying to me

Like you see it coming a mile away and it's still a thing

Meanwhile bf gets a 10% buff and sin gets 30% fan damage

That's the most annoying part to me

[vestal wren]

its like saying "omg there was no feral in the wfr, i now feel forced to reroll to a spec/class that was played because i can else not finish my heroic raid"

[thin trout]

u are annoyed that outlaw got a buff? wut lol dude

outlaw is target capped

thats like getting 1 piece of candy and being angry that your neighbours kid got a different piece of candy that you value differently

[slow marsh]

Change your plater / wa pandemic glow if vendetta is on the target and just remember your last set of bleeds that are snapped and don't overwrite. Not much else you can do

[thin trout]

doesnt change the fact that your brother got a whole box of sweets

[slow marsh]

No I'm annoyed that outlaw didn't get a relevant buff

[strange python]

I mean. The "you can play anything as long as you're good" argument is almost a meme tbh. Sure. You could play feral and get CE, but your path will be 10x harder than playing a warlock. And it's fair to be upset that class balance is this pereptually bad.

[vestal wren]

yes

same with melee

[strange python]

I so badly wanna play a warrior

[vestal wren]

just play a warlock, why bother with rogue

[thin trout]

warlocks have taken our PIs

i just play PIotM classes

[strange python]

I mean. Yes. We should all be annoyed that melee is always screwed and warlocks are always mandatory. That's bad design imo. But it's a different level with feral

[slow marsh]

Idk for me personally I obviously understand that almost anything is viable outside of rwf and that good players can pump on just about anything. It's more like why does it have to be like that

[oak sky]

"melee is always screwed"

[vestal wren]

okay, change feral to ret

[oak sky]

bro what does that mean

[vestal wren]

same arguments apply

[strange python]

Fewer melee spots, more melee specs, less general melee utility+necessity.

[oak sky]

theres plenty of melee spots

[slow marsh]

Sure there's never perfect balance ever in any game but also why isn't there more effort to attempt to close the gaps

[vestal wren]

and do you still thing you can't push high keys on ret or have a very hard time getting ce?

[strange python]

No, but no one's saying it's impossible or even super hard

[strange python]

But you can drool on the space key and get CE as a warlock, and you have to be at least competent on most other roles.

Right

That's not the same thing

[vestal wren]

that kind of sounds like saying "it will be super hard"

[slow marsh]

It is tho

[fleet anchor]

I mean that's been the case for a long time.

[slow marsh]

You have to find a guild capable of getting CE that will take your ret pala

[strange python]

Yes

[fleet anchor]

🙂

[slow marsh]

Then you have to work harder to perform to make up for the fact that you're a ret

[strange python]

Yes. But not "super hard" like fuus implying

[oak sky]

and if you love ret its worth every time

[slow marsh]

And sure it's more satisfying but there's also a balance

[vestal wren]

ret just got a buff that puts its damage levels to a quite competitive point

[strange python]

But it is absolutely bullshit balance that some specs have been niche and some have beenrequired for years.

[fleet anchor]

Good times 😄

[thin trout]

sup boys

[fleet anchor]

Still got beat by rando Mages

With good trinket procs

WoD was fun

[thin trout]

still winds of winter memes being made about me wiping the raid tho

[fleet anchor]

But Feral has been stuck in perma-niche mode forever

Because Blizzard balance is awful

[timid cloud]

It’s just worse Sin Rogue without QOL

[strange python]

I mean that's my point. I think it's a flaw of game design for some classes to be mandatory and some to be niche continually.

[slow marsh]

Feral has it worse than ret because it has Boomie option but they're pretty similar

[fleet anchor]

It's not even just that Warlocks are mandatory

It's that they can do everything also lol

[slow marsh]

In terms of being stuck in the 'why dont you play x' tier

[strange python]

It wouldn't be bad if like, feral was niche and lock was required for a few patches and then it swapped. It's bad because it's always this way

[timid cloud]

It’s historically the worst spec other than a few patches.

[fleet anchor]

Realistically everyone should probably just be a Warlock but people get bored by stuff like that and we get class variety by accident despite Blizzard's best efforts

[slow marsh]

You need priests to buff them

[timid cloud]

A DH*

[fleet anchor]

Healers 😛

[timid cloud]

What was that meme that Lazel had?

[slow marsh]

I think it would be amazing if we saw a rwf where they did actual degen stuff like that just to show how bad blizzard is at class balance

[strange python]

BuT ThEy WeRe BaD In EmErAlD nIgHtMaRE

[timid cloud]

“If you die on a Boomkin or Warlock you are dogshit.” -Lazel 2021

[fleet anchor]

I mean people did it in Nyalotha for memes with Fire Mage stacked runs

[strange python]

My moonkin has been the cause of 80% of our halondrus wipes :)

[fleet anchor]

Fire Mage was so broken in Nyalotha

[slow marsh]

We almost had it with 4 wars/4surv but

[brave gazelle]

Tbf if you die on any ranged*

[fleet anchor]

The only reason people didn't stack like 14 of them was just because guilds didn't have 14 of them

🤣

[timid cloud]

Not true, Hunter is too soft.

[slow marsh]

Like let's see some 5 warlock 1 mage 1 spriest 4 war 1 enh 4 holy priest degen stuff

[strange python]

Hunters can also cast while moving

[fleet anchor]

It's honestly kinda like the Horde vs. Alliance thing

[strange python]

Hunters who excuse their deaths as "but we're squishy" are ignoring that they shouldn't get hit by shit at all anyways

[fleet anchor]

People have a preference and that's the only reason it just isn't like fully skewed one way

But it is slowly getting worse over time

[slow marsh]

You don't need to cast while moving when you can just plant and ignore mechanics cuz you never die or just blink back to port

[fleet anchor]

Players are consolidating more on a few specs in recent years

Representation of lower specs is progressively getting smaller

[slow marsh]

Ye

We meme about locks but boomies have seen it the most this xpac I think

[strange python]

Isn't general rogue player base much smaller than it's been historically?

[slow marsh]

Just stacking 3/4 every raid no matter what

[strange python]

Really dunno why blizzard thought the insane boomie burst wouldn't cause problems

[timid cloud]

That moment when it’s about you flopping to ambient damage as a Hunter, not just standing in everything, but also it’s the softest of the ranged. Not a hot take, just facts.

[strange python]

Squishiest range is still less vulnerable than any melee.

[oak sky]

who hunter?

[brave gazelle]

And turtle panic button if they do fuck up aye

[oak sky]

thats just wrong bro rogues cant die neither can dks or warriors

[slow marsh]

I mean at least we can be grateful that we aren't still in 'only taking 5 melee' times

[timid cloud]

Lol

[fleet anchor]

Balance in the game right now is definitely stuck in a rut

[timid cloud]

Just be built diffy.

Be Guiltyas or Blueprynt.

[fleet anchor]

They let the same specs be op time and time again, other specs are good they view it as a problem

[timid cloud]

Dogshit specs, just large pumpers.

[fleet anchor]

It's been this way for some time unfortunately

[strange python]

Rogue, warrior, and DK have way more ways to die than a hunter. Half the non-wipe shit that kills you in a raid barely impacts ranged.

[strange python]

I've been super surprised enhance has been allowed to stay OP

[slow marsh]

It's fine 9.2.5 will come out and people will get all the broken stuff from all the raids and hopefully have some fun before blizzard destroys everything in 10.0

[strange python]

I expected an immense nerf

[oak sky]

dragonflight

[fleet anchor]

First good Enhance tier in a long time

[slow marsh]

I'm happy for enh tbh

[vestal wren]

rogue had quite a bit of changes in terms of balancing compared to bfa/legion

[strange python]

Yeah but I assumed blizzard would nerf anything that isn't warrior or lock or mage or boomie

[slow marsh]

Haven't seen one top me yet I think but I wouldn't be mad

[vestal wren]

bfa/legion was "always play sin in raid no matter what"

[timid cloud]

Survival was more than likely to get nerfed.

Enhancement hasn’t been good since Uldir.

[strange python]

Our enhance is like world 2 :( they SLAM

[timid cloud]

Actually Legion.

[strange python]

Put a thicc 16.5k down on halondrus

[timid cloud]

Because it was only projected to be good in Uldir, then it was dogshit.

[vestal wren]

sl was still for most raids rly good to sin but sub was at least for the last 2 raids competitive or ahead

[slow marsh]

Only downside about enh rn is that it's also rng casino spec

[vestal wren]

the last raid even had all 3 in a good position

[strange python]

I mean nathria wasn't kind to rogues until the buffs.

[vestal wren]

but even then it was close to 50/50 between sub/sin and close to no outlaw players

thats correct

but i don't go from a world first raider point of view

[strange python]

They waited a LONG time to buff sin and sub in nathria.

Fire mage would've been buffed 5x faster

And it was this patch and last

[slow marsh]

The issue with sub and sin this xpac imo (mind you I only started back in CN) is that they are way too similar in niche in terms of st but sub has more tools for aoe and a big big one is just cd timings

[vestal wren]

sub rogue was at some point the last in terms of dps in cn

because they buffed everything else 😉

[timid cloud]

Outlaw was stronger for awhile.

[vestal wren]

thats why we got a sht butt, a backstab buff and a bp buff

[timid cloud]

BP hit like a noodle

[strange python]

Fire mage was buffed in 9.2 almost immediately and was not even bottom of the tables. Sub went all of 8.0.5-9.1 as trash. Sin lasted almost a month as trash.

Same in 9.1 for fire btw

[oak sky]

sub was great in 9.1

[vestal wren]

if you think about it, all of the buffs they gave to sub are not rly making the spec pop during its cooldowns

[timid cloud]

& we went Premed Shadow Tech which also did no damage. It was fun to use that ability.

[strange python]

I meant until 9.1

[oak sky]

ok

[timid cloud]

Conduits buffing shadow damage is pretty much what props up sub.

[vestal wren]

sht and backstab buff is like the lowest impact buff you can do in terms of creating strong cooldown windows

same with BP

they did shift a lot of power of BP away from the FW part into baseline

[slow marsh]

I mean it's just everything combined for sub that makes it king for these last two raids. Mainly just fight timers and having an option to aoe

[timid cloud]

Effortless AOE*

[vestal wren]

so no intention to "Buff" burst aoe, but just make numbers in sustained fights higher

[timid cloud]

CT needs to be baseline.

[strange python]

A lottttttttt of fight timers in sepulcher feel bad as sin.

[slow marsh]

Even if CT was baseline sin wouldn't have meaningful aoe

[timid cloud]

Not having an AOE spender feels like dog.

[strange python]

Lihuvim and artificer especially

[slow marsh]

Arti is fine

Just stay boss

[strange python]

Depends on your push timings.

Bud on artificer I go all 3 platforms

[oak sky]

congrats on your guild only playing around you

[timid cloud]

Arti is only a bit strange if you go over.

Yeah.

[vestal wren]

This is a interessting discussion

[timid cloud]

I tried it for a bit, said fuck no.

[slow marsh]

Idk just show logs and if they still don't then they're the ones trolling

[vestal wren]

because the question rly is

[timid cloud]

How so?

[vestal wren]

is multi dotting aoe?

[timid cloud]

Hmmm…

[oak sky]

they dont care its only about killing the boss so if it works it doesnt change

[strange python]

Because our comp of: 2 fire, 1 frost DK, 1 survival, 1 BM, 2 warriors was somehow unable to finish arti platforms

[timid cloud]

Sorta? I just think we need QOL to our AOE.

[vestal wren]

its a rly old topic, we discuss it since i can remember doing tc

[fleet anchor]

Not really

[timid cloud]

If it hit harder

[slow marsh]

Multi dot should be aoe but for sin it's just funnel that's not as good as sub

[oak sky]

and theyre right, my logs don't matter at all in the grand scheme of the guild

[timid cloud]

SILENCE FERAL

[slow marsh]

Well then that's cringe

[fleet anchor]

Celestalon always argued this about Feral even in WoD

[timid cloud]

[fleet anchor]

But realistically

[slow marsh]

Do they let locks stay boss

[fleet anchor]

Tab-DoT is not AoE

[strange python]

Yep. This is it. It doesn't matter if I can do more damage on the boss, and it doesn't matter if it's the platform team playing bad. In the moment, if sending me gets us a kill, then it's what we do.

[fleet anchor]

It is cleave

[oak sky]

1 destro was going platforms, demo stayed boss

[fleet anchor]

You can't effectively apply to enough targets quickly enough for it to be effective AoE before things die

GCD limited

[timid cloud]

Even with Thrash & Primal Wrath is not a great AOE kinda.

[slow marsh]

Sin rogue should be treated like demo lock tbh

[oak sky]

today i got sent to the furthest add on pantheon and i had to explain to my raid leader that i was both necro and not playing sub

[timid cloud]

But I guess primal wrath is technically a better CT?

[slow marsh]

People need to learn that

[fleet anchor]

You can sit there and put DoTs on every target in the universe as Feral or Assassination

And you'll still get out DPS by the most basic one-button generators by other specs

[fallen fable]

Run forest ruun

[oak sky]

I literally don't care what I'm assigned to but it needs to at least make sense

theres a sub rogue in our raid

venth sub on pantheon

[strange python]

My guild thought eye beam DH got more windfury value than both sin and sub. And we're mid-HoF. No one knows shit about rogues except for rogues ourselves. And they don't care to listen

[vestal wren]

I am also on the site that multi dotting is not aoe

[oak sky]

guess who can kill the add better

(he can)

[vestal wren]

but the problem becomes

when we want a aoe finisher to replace multi dotting

[fleet anchor]

I don't really think it's to replace. It's to supplement and replace Envenom

[vestal wren]

and also, one of the things i see a lot discussed, want fok to generate just like sub, cp based on per targte hit

[timid cloud]

Regardless. Our problems lie in lack of AOE.

[vestal wren]

don't we end up in just re-creating sub?

[slow marsh]

I think that as a melee juggling multi dots should be rewarded but it's just not

[timid cloud]

Yeah. I argue that day & night.

[oak sky]

its definitely deeper than that

[native belfry]

Just make PB an actual cooldown with damage

[strange python]

Couldn't disagree more.

Specs should have niches

Sins problem is that as a st/cleave spec it isn't doing the most St/cleave damage.

[fleet anchor]

I'd have multiple suggestions on how to make FoK good without just copying Shuriken Storm but I doubt any mechanical changes are coming any time soon

[timid cloud]

I love class fantasy & all, but there’s a certain limit.

[slow marsh]

We don't need effective aoe if we have reasonable payoff for funneling / multidotting prio targets

[timid cloud]

Listing off just all of the changes would just take a bit.