assassination

[limber lion]

giga

[muted ivy]

lol

[limber lion]

probably some sub main playing assa in top

[alpine latch]

I like Sin so much more than Sub, but even being bad at Sub I seem to just flat out do more damage 😦

[limber lion]

smh

[alpine latch]

I kind of hate it

[muted ivy]

prob forgot to swap spec

[slow marsh]

this is true, but can also be just as true for sub

[limber lion]

Yeh

Just saying that you honestly shouldn't be forced to play one spec over the other - unless you hit a wall where you're forced to do so

[bleak sky]

weird

[limber lion]

I would just play Assa until you hit that wall

[bleak sky]

untimed leaderboards

[viscid spear]

"Why does my Shadowstrike look like two blue crossed blades..."

[muted ivy]

huh

[limber lion]

And that wall is probably a looong way away

[alpine latch]

It's more of my group wants me to get good at Sub so when we do get to the higher keys (for us), I'm ready

And I'm not learning in 23s

[slow marsh]

ye i mean i think it's less about being forced and more about how easy it is to perform as sub vs sin combined with sub being overall more output

[limber lion]

Good thing Sub is much easier to play in M+ than sin

[muted ivy]

prob doesn't show below a certain %

[limber lion]

[alpine latch]

I've come a long way, but fuu gave me the timestamped receipts of how much I suck. lol

[signal pier]

im sub main and i wanna get good at assa because it looks fun

[oak sky]

Actual gimmick spec

[spice spire]

Sin is so fun in m+

[signal pier]

I hope assa will outshine sub in some dungs in the future

[alpine latch]

The amount of times he said, "Here you used Shadowblades and then wasted it" was eye opening

[limber lion]

Necro sin with DS is actually great

[spice spire]

Enjoy it highly

[alpine latch]

Yeah, I prefer Sin

[spice spire]

Wait hol up

[fleet anchor]

I mean honestly we've been saying this for like 2 xpacs, but people are obsessed with overkill micro-optimization 😛

[spice spire]

Oh deeper

[limber lion]

Yuup

[alpine latch]

My goal is 2500 on all 3 specs at at least 1 timed 25

[spice spire]

I was like uh Cev

[alpine latch]

Did you think he meant Dashing?

lol

[spice spire]

I did

[alpine latch]

hahaha

[spice spire]

[limber lion]

No

Deathspike

Not dashing or deeper

[oak sky]

Deathly shadows

[limber lion]

Deathspike

[bleak sky]

2500 should be free; timing 25 shouldn't be too hard later on in the season

if you're not timing 20s+ right now I wouldn't bother with it

[alpine latch]

Yeah, 2500 is 100% free. I'm not concerned about that TBH

[limber lion]

only 2500? man you've got that covered in 2 weeks

[spice spire]

Oh I just auto parse the two together rn

[limber lion]

But yeh

[oak sky]

Lowkey 20s are alr kinda easy

[alpine latch]

Yup, nothing too special. Just a base understanding of all 3 specs and then pushing on one of them

[balmy condor]

@spice spire necro sin with DN is pretty good

[spice spire]

DS in a rogue discord is kinda cursed

[bleak sky]

yeah they're free

[oak sky]

Anyone else still not done streets?

[spice spire]

Yo what’s DN?

[bleak sky]

but I don't want to sound like an asshole more than I need to

[limber lion]

I personally would just play the spec you enjoy more

[alpine latch]

I'm like 2600 or so right now, and I'll be 2500 on Sub this week. I'm a little under 2100 as Sin

[limber lion]

I still do more dps in dungeons as Assa than I do on Sub

[slow marsh]

i agree sin feels a lot better than it did last patch

[bleak sky]

YEP, 0 io on streets

[limber lion]

I'm a good Sub, but an even better Assa

[bleak sky]

me rn

[limber lion]

and that shows

[alpine latch]

When I pad with Black Powder I did more

[oak sky]

Gigachad

[balmy condor]

Dealing No damage, which is what you do

[bleak sky]

still burned out from last season

[signal pier]

dude i was scared to step in there, its not that bad

[fleet anchor]

Like for example, I honestly cba to swap to Venthyr for keys as Sub and just stay Kyrian and who tf cares for my weekly 16-18s or whatever? Honestly makes no difference. I could play any spec or any legendary combo we'd still 2 chest this shit. lol

[spice spire]

A HECKING MEN @balmy condor

[bleak sky]

I don't need to go in there for anything rn, I don't want to push keys just yet

[signal pier]

ah i see

i totally get u tho

i didnt step in tazavesh for 2 weeks since m+ started

[oak sky]

Problem is i havent learned streets yet and when my guild does 20s of it they dont want me learning it because ill int it needs to be like a weekly 15 or something

[subtle tundra]

highkey assa is bad af in m+ and im mad

[balmy condor]

Rat keys

[spice spire]

Big fan of rat keys rn

[bleak sky]

the only shit part in streets is the first pull on god

[spice spire]

Past two weeks all I’ve done

[bleak sky]

too much stuff to kick/hard interrupt at the same time

[limber lion]

l2p

[subtle tundra]

smh

[slow marsh]

I guess my frustration is that I am the same. I'm a pretty good sub and great sin player (obviously...jk) but sub is just better regardless

[fleet anchor]

I got bored of pushing keys about 3 years ago

[oak sky]

I just havent seen the key thats all

[slow marsh]

like you can be a mediocre sub and keep up with a really good sin

it makes 0 sense

[limber lion]

Yeh

[subtle tundra]

no, you can be a mediocre sub and outdps a really good sin easily in m+

[fleet anchor]

Honestly don't find it fun. Understand why people like it, but my goal is to get in and out as quickly as possible. lol

[limber lion]

My worst thing with Sub is that my hands starts to hurt from the spamming

[bleak sky]

it's something to do other than raiding

[oak sky]

At 2p i can outdps myself on sub i must be really shit at managing my cds

I mean i can outdps my sub as sin

[fleet anchor]

I mean I have a lot of somethings other to do than raiding. It's called playing games not called WoW. 😄

[bleak sky]

oh sure ye

but I need to fill my vault right

and I'd rather do that with something somewhat fun than to run snoozfest 15s

[zinc frost]

Ain’t that the truth, boomer wrists unite

[slow marsh]

have to keep in mind that kyrian sub almost always hits all of its animacharged and has relatively low mistakes

[oak sky]

Meant in m+ but go off i guess

[fleet anchor]

I'm not gonna kill myself over doing stuff I find boring/repetitive when I could do something I find fun. If people find push keys fun, more power to them. I'm glad they can find it to be that way. I struggle with it though.

[slow marsh]

o lol

i thought you just meant sims

[oak sky]

Nah

[slow marsh]

do you prio funneling a lot?

[oak sky]

Yeah

[spice spire]

Bing bong

[slow marsh]

i find a lot of sin players on sub dont spam the powder as much

[fleet anchor]

It's funny because I really enjoy randomized keystones in stuff like D3 or whatever. The static nature of keys in WoW I just really struggle to enjoy though. Seasonal affixes being mediocre doesn't really help.

[slow marsh]

cuz they're used to playing ethically

[alpine latch]

That's part of my issue, unfortunately. I don't particularly care about pushing keys. However, I play WoW to hang out with my friends, and they do like to push keys. So I spend time pushing because it's how I get to stay playing with them.

[kindred rapids]

Keys are also just unrewarding

[oak sky]

Powder is useless when a mob has higher hp than the rest of the pack

[kindred rapids]

No reason to push besides ego

[oak sky]

Its funny because i played with arcane mage and demo in wake and did less st and less aoe

No tea tho tbf

[alpine latch]

Sure, but ego isn't a bad thing

[fleet anchor]

I mean that depends on the affix and pull strategy. Not sure there's a great global statement about that.

[alpine latch]

I wouldn't be losing weight and working on getting healthier if it weren't for my ego

[kindred rapids]

Yeah but in raid you get to have an ego and get loot 😂

[oak sky]

Oh sure i meant in general mobs dying at the same time will speed up the key

[alpine latch]

I don't care about loot

[bleak sky]

yea get that extra tier piece from raid

[oak sky]

Other stuff like raging exists and whatever

[bleak sky]

you can do both though

[slow marsh]

your logic is mostly correct but that's not how sub players generally think is what i mean

if there's 3 or more you powder

[alpine latch]

Honestly as long as I can perform well enough to still be a part of the team, IDC about loot. I'm fine if everyone else gets geared before me

[slow marsh]

that's just how it is

[spice spire]

🛑

[fleet anchor]

I feel like Rogues have somewhat conditioned themselves to be funnel bots because they have gotten told to do it for a long time. While all the other specs yolo AoE pad and don't give a shit 🤣

[spice spire]

Respect the grustle tho

[oak sky]

Its sad i was doing less overall and less funnel

[bleak sky]

all my dungeons so far have been omega black powder time

[oak sky]

Demo did 20k overall lmao

Arcane was 2p did 16k

[bleak sky]

if they want a mob to die they gotta kill it themselves

[spice spire]

As a warrior I pop all CDs on pull (including die by the sword) and let Jesus take the wheel

[oak sky]

I did nothing all key

[slow marsh]

was it a 15

[oak sky]

21

[spice spire]

I’ll rally myself

[slow marsh]

sounds like they just blasted stuff before you could

[timid cloud]

I bp spammed in a 21 NW

[zinc frost]

https://tenor.com/view/tropic-thunder-robert-downey-jr-kirk-lazarus-survive-survival-gif-4959255

[fleet anchor]

I find it easier most of the time just to AoE pad like everyone else so I don't have to put effort into "defending" why I did lower DPS

[timid cloud]

Fuck these little dumbasses.

[subtle tundra]

if everyone in the group targets the prio mob, sub does way less funnel than you'd think

[viscid spear]

Maybe they'll give us old Smoke Bomb back in 10.0

[fleet anchor]

I don't do it in raid because I'm a good raider

[spice spire]

Unethical padders in this glorious assassination chat?

[fleet anchor]

But average GV keys are just about getting it over with for me lol

[slow marsh]

just cuz sub gives rogue aoe doesn't mean it compares to any other spec lol

[bleak sky]

if the warlock wants a mob dead it WILL die

[oak sky]

Stuff was dying evenly idrc how it happens

[subtle tundra]

when the warlock outdps's me on shards

[slow marsh]

probs implosion

[fleet anchor]

Ethical Assassination players go Poison Bomb to keep themselves away from temptation

[subtle tundra]

and does way more aoe

[spice spire]

AMEN BROTHER

[slow marsh]

lock shits on prio mob then blows his imps up after

[spice spire]

CT is the devil’s button

[signal pier]

poison bomb should be baseline change my mind

[viscid spear]

I FoK'd when the adds were stacking on Arthas to get a better Flag

[fleet anchor]

CT should be baseline

[spice spire]

(Please don’t run PB in m+)

[timid cloud]

LOL CT THE DEVILS BUTTON

[slow marsh]

they both should be

PB does shit damage

[bleak sky]

pb is shit, ct should be baseline

[timid cloud]

I'm dying.

[slow marsh]

and CT is our only aoe

[white orchid]

CT or PB for sure should be baseline

[kindred rapids]

It seemed like last season at least frost mage could funnel nearly as well

[timid cloud]

I mean you know what else should be baseline?

[signal pier]

it should be baseline because it's shit

[slow marsh]

keep PB a talent but buff it / rework it to be useful

[fleet anchor]

Finisher-based spec with no AoE finisher is just like design from 2009

[bleak sky]

they still can

[timid cloud]

FOK actually giving 5 CP on 10 targets like Sub.

[kindred rapids]

Rogue has only gotten relatively worse since then

in keys

[timid cloud]

[kindred rapids]

especially

[timid cloud]

I mean in comparison to BFA, yes.

[oak sky]

Pb can stay if it gets reworked to be interesting because the sound is fun to hear gg no re

[timid cloud]

Shrouded carried us.

[viscid spear]

I have to get the muscle memory to run CT & MfD simultaneously.

[slow marsh]

i think he means in 9.1

[bleak sky]

FR

[white orchid]

Echoing blades was juicy

[slow marsh]

based

[timid cloud]

Echoing Blades was cringe, but you also didn't need 3.

[slow marsh]

but the damage doesn't match the sound

[timid cloud]

EB 1 enjoyers

[signal pier]

poison bomb should make a fart sound

[timid cloud]

SS 3 was MINIMUM

[fleet anchor]

EB geometric scaling on day 1 before the hotfix 😮

[oak sky]

Lol true

[signal pier]

a fart that makes you question if u need to wipe

[timid cloud]

Ayo...what...

[slow marsh]

is it bad that i'm playing classic and the tier just started like a month ago

[bleak sky]

yeah you need help irl

[oak sky]

Yes

[signal pier]

absolutely

[oak sky]

Why play classic

Rp andy

[slow marsh]

i'd rather play tbc rogue than have to gear my hunter up

[oak sky]

I just want cross faction so my dk can be relevant

[spice spire]

People are all for year of the spear rn tho

[slow marsh]

ik they are

[oak sky]

I refuse to level another dk

[slow marsh]

that's why it isn't as fun

[spice spire]

Contrarian

[slow marsh]

how do you think i ended up being a sin main in the first place my guy

9.0

[bleak sky]

iceblades is a hipster

[alpine latch]

Eh, fuck it

[slow marsh]

bye palm

[bleak sky]

welcome to sub palmer

[slow marsh]

don't forget us when you're all teal

[signal pier]

[alpine latch]

If I made the leggo tonight (only having 2p), I still go Venthyr right?

[slow marsh]

be careful with that powder, it's highly addictive

[bleak sky]

give context

[alpine latch]

For raid

[bleak sky]

sin?

[alpine latch]

yarg

[slow marsh]

the akaari leggo or dusk

[alpine latch]

I know what to do as Sub

[bleak sky]

no idea

need an adult

[slow marsh]

if you have 2p you can kinda play whatever you want

[bleak sky]

answer is probably sim it?

[slow marsh]

necro would be the most balanced for 2p tho

[alpine latch]

Yeah, I'll have to sim it when I get home

Sub is just flat out better... But I don't actually like it 😦

Sin just clicks with me

[bleak sky]

idk if flat out better for raid

[alpine latch]

No for keys

[slow marsh]

then dont play it. it's fine

[bleak sky]

just play sin in keys

doesn't matter

[alpine latch]

I just don't want to be the reason why my friends aren't pushing as high as they want to 😦

[slow marsh]

you can play sin in keys just tell your group they'll have to pull a bit different

[bleak sky]

probably won't be the reason

like there's so much that can keep you from going up in keys

your spec with endgame gear will likely not be it

[slow marsh]

kicks is the biggest. not sin vs sub

[alpine latch]

Well, the other part of Sin that blows

Is Shiv is core to our rotation

[bleak sky]

1. know how the dungeon works

2. abuse mechanics

3. get a good route for god's sake

4. ???

5. your spec

and so what

[alpine latch]

Which blows donkey balls when that's our soothe

[slow marsh]

like the damage is one thing but it's cheap shot everything vs one kidney that makes sub definitively better at high keys

[bleak sky]

welp sucks for someone but that mob isn't gonna get soothed

[alpine latch]

lol

[slow marsh]

just plan for sin in keys and you're fine. look to abuse vanish garrote silence with iron wire

you can make it happen, just gonna have to put in the work

[autumn frost]

Go dark elves so you can shadowmeld garotte

[bleak sky]

25s will be just like 20s last season

[alpine latch]

sigh

[bleak sky]

won't matter

[alpine latch]

okay, fuck it

I'm back bois!

lol

I have to re-learn Sin now. The rotation changed a decent bit since 9.1

[bleak sky]

in keys?

[spice spire]

Nop

[alpine latch]

Oh no, in keys I imagine it's largely the same

More for raid

[subtle tundra]

i dont really like just going against assa in the assa channel

[alpine latch]

Like in raid we go CT with 4pc and only envenom really for SnD refreshes, right?

[subtle tundra]

but if you actually care about score

[spice spire]

Not much has changed, outside of 4p,

[subtle tundra]

assa is far worse than sub

[bleak sky]

25 won't be giga score, it's fine

[spice spire]

You should tho.
Sometimes we’re omega apes

[alpine latch]

Yeah, my goal is a timed 25

[spice spire]

And sometimes it’s the other way around

[alpine latch]

I'm not pushing for 30s or anything

[subtle tundra]

even so

if its pushing for you

its still gonna be hard

why make is much much harder

[spice spire]

But if someone can’t take criticism, then

[signal pier]

pretty sure they are doing it for fun, not for score push

[spice spire]

Varas is right, it shall be harder than just doing sub

[alpine latch]

Yeah

[vestal wren]

critisism and flame are often close

[subtle tundra]

i can make 10 solid arguments why assa is so so bad this season

[bleak sky]

#1 it's not sub

[subtle tundra]

he is talking about push

[alpine latch]

I'm down to listen, if you don't mind taking the time to do it

[spice spire]

I feel varas legitimately does criticism well on keys though

[vestal wren]

assassination is good this eason

esp. if you have 4p

[signal pier]

yeah but he meant as in push the limits as assa, not push the overall limits

[bleak sky]

it's ok at best just like last season

[alpine latch]

I'm not against Sub, I just don't particularly enjoy it. However if I'm putting my team at a disservice, then by all means please tell me why.

[vestal wren]

sub without sylvanas daggers would probably be even worse than sin

[spice spire]

Sin is fair.
Sub is just a solid several bits above

[signal pier]

save me from those sylv daggers please

[drifting cloud]

theres no way you can make an argument sin isnt just worse this season than it was last

[alpine latch]

Sub in raid (Halondrus, for example) feels smooth as hell.

[drifting cloud]

yeah its not by alot, and it was ok last season

[spice spire]

Nah, I think you’re overrating assassination in keys, fuu.
I’m a certified one trick.
Refuse to run another spec in keys, but whenever someone says “why not sub” there’s no legit answer

[alpine latch]

But for Sin, I enjoyed everything - ST, 2T, AoE

[drifting cloud]

but the difference has definetly increased

[alpine latch]

It all felt great

[spice spire]

Except sin more fun 🙂

[slow marsh]

they're talking about m+

which its not

[spice spire]

When he says season it doesn’t imply raid.
I think his side is assassination is good in keys, which I respectfully disagree. It’s pretty mid

[slow marsh]

aoe bleed amp is fine but we still don't have anything to dump into which is the main reason why sin is bad in m+

so we still have bad overall aoe damage, we still have solid ST for bosses, and we still have next to no utility that the other two specs have access to

gar silence doesn't super count to me since you have to use it for damage more often than not just to kind of keep up

[spice spire]

It can be nice on open

But often it’s not used for silence

[slow marsh]

like cool we have 1min or less vendetta now, you'd think that would equal mega prio damage but it actually hurts our overall more because we can't keep bleeds up on everything else in the pack + our vendetta target so in actuality you're just trading all your aoe damage for ST prio damage

but the ST prio damage isn't even anything to write home about because again, we have nothing to dump into ST except spamming bleeds and wet noodle envenoms

[signal pier]

what would make assa on par with sub? genuinely asking

like what change

[oak sky]

Redesugn

Redesign

[slow marsh]

ye

[oak sky]

Of aoe

Or alternatively sub redesign of aoe

[signal pier]

"vendetta now spreads your bleeds and poisons in addition to makingg them tick faster"

[oak sky]

Uh maybe not

[slow marsh]

they'd have to change 4-5 things in sin's kit to work in tandem with each other similarly to how outlaw and sub does

[spice spire]

But too strong

[signal pier]

so what kind of aoe redesign are u looking for?

[bleak sky]

a good generator

[oak sky]

More interesting would be stuff that plays into our low burst ramping consistent damage

[slow marsh]

if they change stuff how it is designed now it'll just be more of the same, we'll either be tuned really well or really poor. the issue is design

[vestal wren]

oh, fair, i assumed raid

[slow marsh]

we just need something to spend our energy on is all

envenom aint it

we have a closed feedback loop and not an open one like most other specs

[signal pier]

black powder -> green powder

[oak sky]

Twist your blades into all targets, dealing damage based on the number of bleed and poison effects on each target

[slow marsh]

FoK is fine as an ability it needs to be changed to either do more damage based on number of bleeds targets have or give more cp

Evenom needs to be updated to not be a spell from 2010 that's been largely unchanged at all

CT baseline

talent rework

That would be the minimum i think

[signal pier]

imo shiv also feels kinda off

it feels out of place

[oak sky]

Not everything needs to be an aoe button

[slow marsh]

shiv is whatever. they just added toxic blade to an existing ability which imo was lazy but whatever

[oak sky]

Its not about our aoe being crazy its about it feeling better and having the possibility to be crazy in the right situations or tiers or levels of tuning

[bleak sky]

what feels off is the utility spell giving so muchh damage to the spec

sin saving shiv for soothe already felt bad last season

this season is just straight up inting

[signal pier]

yeah, its like they had to find a reason for this ability to exist

[slow marsh]

ye i agree. i think they just need to decide whether fok is going to be an aoe builder or a damage button that kinda builds

[signal pier]

the 2p just barely make any sense

in matter of design

[slow marsh]

the 2p was just digging in to already lazy design that is shiv

[spice spire]

2p makes sense for raid; however, yeah

[slow marsh]

press shiv do more damage

[spice spire]

Combining a soothe with TB was sketch

For us alone

[signal pier]

instead of "make target receive more dmg" they can think of cool techs which im too dumb to think of

[slow marsh]

i mean the 2p itself in isolation was really cool for us

[signal pier]

the sub 4p is so interactive since it's based on reaction even if it's dumb button spamming

its dumb fun

[slow marsh]

it just sucks that it got tacked on to shiv which already had toxic blade tacked on to it

[spice spire]

Sin4p is a lot of fun tbh

[slow marsh]

ye i mean the issues i have with the spec rn aren't with the tier itself

the tier just builds on the frustrations people already have with the spec

[kindred rapids]

The 2pc was sorta necessary for our bleeds to do enough damage for the 4pc to be good

[slow marsh]

or rather exposes them further

[oak sky]

Core idea of the spec is great its just not expanded upon

[gusty mirage]

[slow marsh]

It hasn't be iterated on enough and/or when it has been in a cool place, it's all BP and goes away at the end of xpac

[oak sky]

Energy regen making us strong in cleave, the idea of vendetta being a solely single target button, maintaining bleeds are all really good concepts

[spice spire]

Unpopular opinion ik

[gusty mirage]

refreshing bleeds sooner is so much fun

game changer

[slow marsh]

I mean the 4p is fun in a vacuum

[odd heath]

Sin 4p is nice in ST. It sucks big time on aoe

[oak sky]

Good damage = good design mad?

[slow marsh]

It would've been better if they kept shiv ST and remove the aoe portion, but buff it to 60-75%

[gusty mirage]

good damage kek

top kek

[oak sky]

Dem

[bleak sky]

elderly citizen malding at unrealistic scenarios

[slow marsh]

Like the 4p makes it next to impossible to actually get value out of the 2p in aoe. So it's kinda pointless

May as well double down on the ST and leave us with no aoe at all. Think we'd be much better off that way

[oak sky]

I dont mind shiv giving aoe for a tier

[slow marsh]

I wouldn't mind shiv giving aoe either until you make the 4p

then i do mind

[oak sky]

I miss ignoring my vendetta in aoe

Oh wait

I still do because

I dont have 4p

[slow marsh]

well then there you go lol you don't know the struggle yet

[alpine latch]

Sub just feels like it gets 2x as many CP as Sin does

[oak sky]

No i know its gonna be weird ice

[slow marsh]

its oddly anti synergistic, cuz you'd think it'd work great together

[kindred rapids]

The 4pc is great because it enables dusk which together with the 4pc effect really cranks up the pace of gameplay

[alpine latch]

Last tier I'd be rolling with 52% crit (yay crit tea), FoK 11 targets and get 3 CP

Like what the fuck

[slow marsh]

until your vendetta bleeds run out before you can even dot up one other mob

[signal pier]

because it does

[balmy condor]

I love dusk

[signal pier]

it has enough CP to give to the 2 other specs

[alpine latch]

I swear if the CP were just the same for Sub as Sin that would help a lot

[oak sky]

BAAAAAAAAT

[kindred rapids]

Last tier you could really feel like you were playing optimally and there was very little to optimize

[bleak sky]

[slow marsh]

i know

[oak sky]

Last tier was ass bro fuck frost

[slow marsh]

true, while it was nice to do big dam, the way we got it was stupid

[bleak sky]

I LOVE PLAYING LIKE SHIT AND DOING BIG DAM

[oak sky]

I played like a god

And did

[alpine latch]

Literally me on Sub right now... lol

[oak sky]

Okayge dam

[kindred rapids]

You don't get that feeling as much this tier because the skill ceiling is much higher

[oak sky]

Thats what you think

[signal pier]

frozen orb
blizzard
icelance
turn off brain

[alpine latch]

I know I suck and yet I'm smashing

[slow marsh]

its not even the skill ceiling though is the issue

[oak sky]

Its not like the tier cant be solved

[balmy condor]

No like I actually love dusk

[oak sky]

If something is solved you can play ot

[balmy condor]

Dusk is a good lego

[slow marsh]

dusk is like our only good leggo

[balmy condor]

I loved it in legion too

[bleak sky]

you just hate the cringe snapshot ye?

[slow marsh]

the 4p is cringe ye

[odd heath]

I do too

[bleak sky]

and mfd

[odd heath]

1min CDs nice

[gusty mirage]

I just hate exsanguinate effects

[kindred rapids]

how bad was dusk actually in previous tiers

[balmy condor]

I love exsang as an effect

Snapshotting is terrible

[kindred rapids]

could you vendetta every sludgefist pillar with dusk?

[alpine latch]

Dusk was never "awful" it just wasn't the best

[slow marsh]

like -500/600 something

not terrible

[balmy condor]

That was the only use case yeah

[vestal wren]

snapshotting is what makes exsang interessting tho

[balmy condor]

But it was below average in general

[slow marsh]

but MA was better on sludge

[balmy condor]

Snapshotting is not interesting though

There’s nothing interesting about it

[kindred rapids]

Oh wow, that would have actually been pretty good then

[balmy condor]

It’s just jank

[slow marsh]

what's more janky

[kindred rapids]

I overlooked that entirely when I was on sludgefist

[slow marsh]

is snapshotting bleeds so you get more energy for more dusk cdr

just so you can hold vend for 10-15s

[alpine latch]

I don't really find Snapshotting particularly interesting or fun as a mechanic. Especially when it's not even actually explained in game - it's just up to players to find out it even exists.

[slow marsh]

and waste that cdr

[balmy condor]

It wasn’t a very common setup and was very questionable if it was better

[oak sky]

Dusk is ok

I like the idea of doomblade if envenom did damage

[slow marsh]

I wnat dusk to reduce by 1s for every 25 energy instead of 30

[oak sky]

Zoldycks feels on theme with execute for an assassin class but does no damage

[signal pier]

is there a detailed explanation for snapshotting, like in depth?

[balmy condor]

That’s what it should’ve been

[oak sky]

Why would that be better

[balmy condor]

What are you curious about

[kindred rapids]

We already have to hold vendetta because it comes up too fast

[slow marsh]

f

u

l

l

2

[kindred rapids]

We'd be close to doing 2 vendettas per flag

[balmy condor]

Because it would’ve been 1 min without the tier

[slow marsh]

u

h

h

h

h

[signal pier]

just how it works, why its better etc...

[oak sky]

No like

I meant design wise

[slow marsh]

k my keyboard had a stroke

[oak sky]

Jesus

[slow marsh]

anyways one muti would reduce by 2s

[oak sky]

Yeah thats true

[slow marsh]

i think if dusk was 1s/25 energy then we would be in a range where it wouldn't be worth to hold cuz it'd be 45ish seconds

[oak sky]

Hope theres no leggos in 10.0

[slow marsh]

well the way the story ended for jailer idk wtf they're gonna do anywyas

like it could be legion 2.0 but with the newer bigger badder legion, it could be dragons, it could be murlocs like honestly who cares at this point

[alpine latch]

Okay, good news - I have built a ton of text-only games (MUDs) and snapshotting is used there constantly! Snapshotting is effectively when you "snapshot" your current stats when applying a Damage Over Time (DoT) ability to your target. Instead of having to check for haste, crit, mastery, etc. every single time the DoT does tick damage, it just reads all of that data from the DoT itself. MOST games that use this method (think of D3 for example) do it because it's just flat out faster to do - you're not dynamically checking for stat changes every single damage tick.

The downside of Snapshotting, IMO, is that literally no game ever does a good job of explaining how it works and building around it. 99% of the time, players don't even know it's a thing until they notice it by accident or they are specifically looking for the interaction and are surprised to find it.

[obtuse robin]

just let me roll mechanome and raid horde and im good

[alpine latch]

In game development, it's a massive memory saver by storing it all in the DoT itself and not having to check, that's why they do it. I just don't particularly like it

[signal pier]

Oh so it's taking a "picture" of your current stats and just throws the dot on the target as if you always have those stats

[alpine latch]

Yup, exactly

Then it doesn't have to recalculate it all again until you refresh it

[violet hemlock]

I dont understand how it saves memory rather than computation time, as all the values have to be stored no matter what

[slow marsh]

yes and that's how it worked for a long time but it was broken with a lot of stat proc stuff in bc / wrath etc so they removed it. except they added it again

[oak sky]

Dragons seem likely because i saw one speculation video that is clearly correct

[signal pier]

Can you explain how the new "haste-snapshot" technique works as explained in the pins?

[balmy condor]

The current snapshot when you play with 4 piece causes vendetta to half the duration and double the tick rate of the dots. Since haste increases the tick rate, that means when you have 10% haste, it’ll take a snapshot of that haste and the dots will tick with that 10% haste value. If you lose haste or gain haste while that’s ticking, it won’t change. The issue with that is flagellation gives haste. So you can flag rupture, and then envenom and the haste you get from the envenom won’t affect that rupture until you re-cast the rupture. The good thing about that (and why venthyr is considered best single target now), is you can instead hold your vendetta for a couple seconds into flag in order to start it off at a higher haste level. Once vendetta drops off, the dots are still snapshot, so you’re looking to vendetta 4 seconds into flag to make sure that you get the haste from the last 12 seconds of flag into the end of vendetta. That being said though, like Palmer already pointed out, it’s very confusing to the player and someone not initiated with the game or with no way to look up the info is shit out of luck and messes up their rotation because of it. And you can argue things like snapshot and pandemic are “skill expression”, but in my opinion it’s a bit of a cop out

[slow marsh]

I think dragons too for a 'filler' xpac while they figure out wtf bullshit is gonna come for azeroth next

[signal pier]

nvm Whispyr already explained

😛

[kindred rapids]

err it would use more memory but less dynamic calculation

[alpine latch]

So think about it this way, what's easier?

1. Check the DoT object and get it's crit % and base damage for the remainder of the dot
2. Pull all of the dynamic stats on the character every second that the dot is on the target

[kindred rapids]

It's caching / denormalization

[alpine latch]

It uses less memory because it stores that as a object and isn't pulling dynamic stats constantly

(I've tested this thoroughly in both C, C++, Node, and Unity)

Unless I'm just a shitty developer (which might be the case, I'm a web dev by trade), I've never once gotten Dynamic Updating to perform better than snapshotting

[balmy condor]

In my opinion if you have to herald something janky like snapshotting as skill expression, the game is failing to provide skill expression already

[violet hemlock]

Id assumed that the players stats would be loaded in any state object related to them anyway

[signal pier]

Pin-worthy

[slow marsh]

though it doesn't really matter to know why it works

[bleak sky]

ACTUALLY IT WASN'T THE JAILER, IT REALLY WAS SARGERAS ALL ALONG

[violet hemlock]

not a dev but just an interested cs major

[balmy condor]

I actually have a wowhead article complaining about snapshotting give me a second to find it

[oak sky]

What actually happened with the jailer

[bleak sky]

no fucking clue

[slow marsh]

sargeras sent the jailer who sent sageras to stab azeroth after sending the legion twice

[bleak sky]

I skipped all cutscenes in my wow career

[slow marsh]

the jailer is just a fuckin robot

[bleak sky]

I've legit 0 clue what has ever happened lore wise

[oak sky]

Isnt sargeras a dead guy

[slow marsh]

like the pantheon

[oak sky]

Wasnt he

Like the vessel

[slow marsh]

sargeras is locked in eternal battle with illidan on a space planet or somet hsit

[oak sky]

When we made pelagos the arbiter

And we had to click on the little guys that shot lasers into the vessel

[slow marsh]

thjat was a new jailer robot that wasn't actually teh jailer

[balmy condor]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/assassination-rogue-analysis-of-the-9-2-tier-set-bonuses-a-lesson-in-dot-325616

[oak sky]

Yeah hes like the old vessel

Rifht

Right

[slow marsh]

ye they never explained why or how he went awol

[fleet anchor]

I mean snapshotting was probably more understandable in older xpacs where all aspects of DoTs snapshotted on cast

[slow marsh]

i'm sure they're trying to figure it out right now

[odd heath]

Talking about it, I noticed that normally when simming venth assassin, the cast sequence is using mfd after using vendetta and shiv, and not building the haste % before vendetta ( flag finisher mfd finisher vend). Is it intended to be like this?

[slow marsh]

to retcon and backtrack the story like they've been doing for awhile

[fleet anchor]

To have just one random stat component snapshot in vvery specific cases is not very intutitive

[signal pier]

I read that when it came out and forgot about it

[violet hemlock]

wait is crit snapshoted aswell with the vendeta shit

[fleet anchor]

It isn't even on purpose, it's just jank to work around making the mechanic actually function

[slow marsh]

instead of coming up with original ideas with a pathway forward

[lone mango]

the Jailer hinted that his real intention was to unite all of reality into one unified army, to fend off some vague even bigger threat. which was pretty much exactly what Sargeras's deal was. unclear if the two are connected or if it's just lazily reusing story arcs

[fleet anchor]

They never invested in some way of just making DoTs tick faster as if they had more haste on a target

[kindred rapids]

It would definitely increase performance and probably reduce memory lookups, just saying it would add extra fields to the DoT struct.

[slow marsh]

just impromptu rework the 4p so that it doesn't exsang and play like shit

[fleet anchor]

So they just lock in the tick rate

[slow marsh]

how about that

[fleet anchor]

The haste snapshot is an accident of that

[oak sky]

We're fighting the black dragonflight next BatChesy

BatChest

[slow marsh]

jsut simply say that vendetta doubles the tick rate of your bleeds and poisons

[fleet anchor]

They have no way of really doing that right now

[alpine latch]

It would. But in this case, it tends to be easier because you apply all the checks once and then apply it all. Dots are typically normalized, so armor reduction etc is already taken into account. It really depends how dynamic you're trying to be at the end of the day.

[slow marsh]

sure they do right? just remove the exsang line and put check for vendetta if true bleeds poisons tick rate x2

at least if it ends up snapshotting it makes more sense to the player

[alpine latch]

Especially if you throw in like old school Prot Stance vs Berserker stance type of checks into DoT damage as well - you'd have to have it check the warriors stance every single tick

[fleet anchor]

They have no way of making a DoT arbitrarily tick faster outside of normal haste levels over a longer period of time

They are abusing the snapshot just to get it to function

by locking in the tick rate over the full duration of the DoT

[balmy condor]

I believe so, yeah

[fleet anchor]

Realistically they could have just done something like "casting Vendetta gives you X% haste for 20s" or something rather than copying Exsang though

[slow marsh]

ye i mean that's the jist of what i'm syaing

just double your haste or some shit

instead of the exsang thing

[fleet anchor]

They just did it because it sounded cool tbh.. probably didn't realize Exsang was a steaming pile of jank

I tried to point this out in my very first feedback post on the forums though

[slow marsh]

Ye I tried to point out that the exsang thing wasn't a great idea from player perspective too

[balmy condor]

I tried to point it out in like 3 articles

[slow marsh]

But I think it was already decided by then

[balmy condor]

[slow marsh]

ye we kinda all did

seemed like they didn't care / didn't have a real choice

Cuz like we said plz don't make 2p a shiv rider but they clearly were dead set on making it a shiv rider

[kindred rapids]

I mean they could have incorporated the 4pc into their dynamic calculation it would have just taken some engineering work.

[slow marsh]

I mean it just wasn't the greatest design. The intention was for it to be an ode to bfa exsang gameplay but there were a lot of other factors in bfa that made it work

thankfully we can make it work and are in an ok spot. it just is what it is

[kindred rapids]

I kind of like the design. But if there is a problem with it it's in the implementation (snapshotting).

They could have kept the same or similar design and done the work to make it dynamic

[slow marsh]

you can't get exsang to work without snapshotting iirc

[fleet anchor]

I mean they could have added code to support some "Increase Periodic Rate" with a whitelist, sure

[slow marsh]

exsang is just a bad mechanic and it shouldn't be a thing

[fleet anchor]

They just tried to do it without engineering work and just user scripts

[kindred rapids]

They can implement whatever they want into the game, it would just require engineering work

Right, it was just the simplest / easiest implementation

[slow marsh]

yeah as if they're not already stacked to their ears with stuff to do. i'm sure the first thing on their mind is hey let's make this work the hard way

hidden blades is still a talent and you think they're gonna do engineering work to make a 4p mechanic work properly

[kindred rapids]

I mean that's the reality, they deemed that it was not worth the time / cost to implement it properly. But it's not like it wasn't possible.

[slow marsh]

ye true

[loud light]

sort of a pedantic point, koji said "they can't do it" which is accurate as far as the design team is concerned

[kindred rapids]

Actually I think scarizard said they were considering fixing it but thought that the snapshotting might actually make the design more interesting?

[oak sky]

LOL

[kindred rapids]

Something like that

[oak sky]

I mean

[loud light]

there's no way they're budgeting for new tech to support this dumb 4p

[oak sky]

I wouldnt want them to at this point

[spice spire]

He did that with the hang off iirc

But yeah

[slow marsh]

the overhang energy gain is what's keeping us in the middle of the pack rn

[kindred rapids]

Can't really say they made the wrong decision either, I still enjoy the 4pc as it is.

[alpine latch]

IDK how anyone can look at it and think, "Man, there's an interaction that's not explained in the game in any way, shape, or form. I bet people will love it"

[limber lion]

Snapshotting was never a consideration

The overhang was

They are 2 different things

[kindred rapids]

They overhang is a consequence of snapshotting though

[limber lion]

And in fact the overhang was fixed, but it was soon reverted because it had such a massive community outlash

[limber lion]

No it's not

Do you not know what snapshotting means?

Or how the overhang works?

[kindred rapids]

They fix the tick rate during DoT application

[limber lion]

Correct

Which stands true during Vendetta

[kindred rapids]

So a DoT applied during vendetta is snapshot with the tick rate at cast time

[limber lion]

It has nothing to do with the overhang

Correct

Even without the overhang you could have snapshotted bleeds during it

[kindred rapids]

The overhang exists because once the tick rate is snapshot into the DoT it remains that way for its duration

[limber lion]

No

The overhang exists because the system does not dynamically adjust the duration or tick rate of the bleeds when Vendetta ends

Not because snapshotting exists

You could, and in fact they did, adjust dynamically when Vendetta drops

but that was reverted

Even without the overhang you still had snapshotting for the entire 20s of Vendetta

But just without the overhang after

Now we have both again

Snapshotting was never removed, overhang was

for a brief moment

[kindred rapids]

Basically they have to add code to undo the snapshotting when vendetta drops

[limber lion]

Correct

[muted ivy]

i think it should be said that "snapshot" is used as a specific term in regards to WoW mechanics

[balmy condor]

And they did

[limber lion]

Which is the result of the 4p working

not snapshotting

Vendetta reducing the duration of bleeds is not snapshotting

Vendetta locking the tick rate of bleeds during application is

which are 2 different things

They don't cancel each other out

You can still have the overhang without snapshotting

and snapshotting without the overhang

The overhang refers to the doubled speed of the bleed, not the snapshotted tick rate of it

[fleet anchor]

Of course, what I mean by this is "they can't do it at present (e.g. in a hotfix) with the functionality they currently have available to them"

[muted ivy]

ya, i just mean snapshot isn't a generic term when talking about WoW mechanics

[hollow river]

I think most people confuse the overhang with snapshotting

[kindred rapids]

That's why I said the overhang was a consequence of snapshotting, not that they could never undo the snapshotting when vendetta drops.

[limber lion]

But it's not

They're 2 different things

[hollow river]

It’s two different things

Ye

[limber lion]

Overhang refers to the exsanguinate effect

Snapshot refers to the hasted tick rate

[kindred rapids]

The tick rate and halved duration are both pieces of state written into the debuff during application.

[limber lion]

Yes

And you can have either or

they don't cancel each other out

You can have snapshotting without the overhang

[fleet anchor]

I think it's fair to say the overhang is a result of the snapshot because snapshotting the haste rate is what allows it to not update dynamically after Vendetta fades. They could MANUALLY reverse it out like with SBS, but that also requires them doing a snapshot because it's still scripted jankery to maintain the current state of the DoT.

[muted ivy]

snapshotting implies setting more than just the duration of the bleed

[limber lion]

or the overhang without snapshotting

[tulip kernel]

does bleed weapon from xymo trink work with 2 piece?

[limber lion]

No

[hollow river]

No

[kindred rapids]

You can ofc snapshot just one of those things and not the other, but the initial implementation snapshots both.

[hollow river]

The overhang isn’t a snapshot

[limber lion]

"one of those things"?

[fleet anchor]

SBS currently stays snapshotted at the time Vendetta fades even with the adjusted rate. Once they start fucking with it it's hard to get it back to "normal"

[limber lion]

Snapshot is one thing

Overhang is not snapshot

[kindred rapids]

I am calling any state that's written into the debuff at application time snapshotting

[bleak sky]

you're throwing snapshot around like it's not a specific thing

[limber lion]

There is no "those things" that snapshots

[muted ivy]

snapshot is a specific term for WoW mechanics

[limber lion]

It's not a generalized term

It's a very specific thing

[bleak sky]

not really no

[kindred rapids]

Tick rate and halved duration are both fixed at cast time rather than updated dynamically

[limber lion]

Yes

And snapshotting refers to the fixed tick rate

not the halved duration

they are different things

[kindred rapids]

If you don't want to call that snapshotting then fine

[limber lion]

?????????

because it's not

you pressing exsanguinate snapshots the tick rate of the bleed

not the duration

exsanguinate halves the duration

but that's not snapshotting

[fleet anchor]

I'm not totally sure what you guys are arguing. The overhang is quite literally "the DoT is still snapshotted into the fixed tick rate after Vendetta fades." Overhang as a term is just a slang term to describe the effect persisting past Vendetta's end. But realistically Vendetta's duration is actually irrelevant here for the DoT itself.

Exsanguinate does snapshot and must snapshot to function

[limber lion]

Yes

Bruh

Exsanguinate does 2 things

It halves the duration of the bleed

and it snapshots the current tick rate of the bleeds

but yeah

[kindred rapids]

Not much point in arguing about the word snapshot itself. I think it's useful as a term to refer to any state that's fixed at cast time rather than updated dynamically like you can snapshot tickrate, or snapshot vers or mainstat. But maybe I need to find a new word.

[muted ivy]

there's an understood lexicon when talking about WoW mechanics, "snapshot" is a term that will imply certain other functionalities that you might not mean

[fleet anchor]

The overhang is always going to be there in some way or another, because it's jank. Even if they do like SBS and try to restore the tick rate back to normal, it's still snapshotted because they are changing the DoT manually and snapshotting the haste is kinda required to do this.

SBS will actually maintain its haste snapshot until you re-cast it

Even after Vendetta fades

Even though the tick rate gets adjusted

[limber lion]

Correct

The snapshotted tick rate remains

the duration, which is not snapshot, changes

That's the entire thing here

but yeh

[fleet anchor]

At least in the case of SBS they don't have to worry about the duration bobbling up and down since it's infinite

[limber lion]

Yeh

Whenever they removed the overhang, it was quite jank

Glad they added it back

[fleet anchor]

If they wanted to reverse the other DoTs I guess they could try a few different approaches but I'm not sure any of them would feel good

How it is now is probably the most consistent way to do it

SBS they had no real choice because obviously it'd break the server if they didn't 🤣

We've tried that one before!

I'm still slightly disappointed I didn't find a way to break everything with Exsang+4pc+SBS with some timing specific thing lol

[limber lion]

Yeaaah

I was hoping to see some play for Exsang

even if for only bursting in PvP

but nah, it's terrible all the way around

[muted ivy]

[gusty mirage]

idk how much of it is terrible or the fact that alacrity is that good

esp this late with how much haste we could theoretically stack

[muted ivy]

little bit of both?

[gusty mirage]

well early on it was less dps than no talent at all

go figure

[fleet anchor]

Exsang has always been kinda moderately terrible other than specific cases where it syncs up with some haste buff or temp buff

Just because it doesn't really generate much additional damage

[loud light]

make exsang into vein rippers from torghast

infinitely hasted

[muted ivy]

Exsang would be cool if there was a mega bleed where it would fit more of it into Vendetta

[limber lion]

whahahat?

Dratnos said that it's a 100% damage increase

[fleet anchor]

haha

[steel ridge]

Kekw

[spice spire]

[steel ridge]

Dratnos is D Tier

[spice spire]

Commanding the tettles take rq tho

[fleet anchor]

But yeah outside of fitting things into tighter windows, it only generates like what.. ~11k damage every 45s with current BiS numbers based on Envenom vs. Rupture differential? 250 DPS talent. Or 10% Haste. 🤔

[kindred rapids]

Okay but has anyone asked infexious for his opinion on exang?

[fleet anchor]

If only Exsang actually did what everyone thinks it does

It would maybe be good 😄

[muted ivy]

add back something like the Legion artifact ability but with a longer duration

[strange python]

@kindred rapids u need 34% crit to play it

[kindred rapids]

Would it be broken if it just didn't reduce duration?

[fleet anchor]

At least in Legion there was stuff like Blood of the Assassinated and Exsang had some interactions with making it ACTUALLY do double damage by fitting the DoT into the whole 10s debuff window

[muted ivy]

Exsang just needs a bleed that it can actually make a cool interaction with

[fleet anchor]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=192923/blood-of-the-assassinated

[steel ridge]

What an ability name

[muted ivy]

rn it's just like oh baby i get a few more ticks of Garrote and Rupture

[steel ridge]

[limber lion]

But as bad as Exsanguinate is

Venom Rush is still the worst designed talent in the entire game

[fleet anchor]

lol

You're not wrong

[limber lion]

literally 8 less energy on Mutilate

it's so lazy

[gusty mirage]

no clue why they nerfed it

[fleet anchor]

Although I'm still moderately happy we got it omega buffed for SL!

[limber lion]

but somehow it's still better than Exsang

[muted ivy]

idk it's kinda funny

[timid cloud]

That’s the best timeline.

Venom Rush still for some reason a talent all together for like the 4th time.

[fleet anchor]

Sephuz buffed VR a lot in beta when we mentioned to him that literally nobody has taken the talent since it was created

I mean it's still bad

[gusty mirage]

I think the energy regen part was neat at least

[timid cloud]

It’s horrid.

[fleet anchor]

But it could be worse 🤣

[muted ivy]

Exsang requires a good bleed to interact with, Venom Rush just gives extra energy

[timid cloud]

When the fuck was it made? Legion?

[gusty mirage]

a lot less lazy that "lul mutilating poisoned target refunds x energy"

wod

[timid cloud]

I only came back in Legion & I remember it barely.

[limber lion]

just fancy wording

[gusty mirage]

at least according to wowhead

[limber lion]

should be

"mutilate -8 energy"

[fleet anchor]

It used to be 5 energy 🤣

[gusty mirage]

VENOM ZEST

LOL

[timid cloud]

ZESTY

[bleak sky]

a little zest of venom

delicious

[timid cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/chefs-kiss-french-chef-perfect-dish-excellent-food-perfection-gif-20341505

I want to poison myself reading about it.

[fleet anchor]

I think honestly its old form was almost as bad

The 3 extra on VW

[limber lion]

At least did something on AoE

[gusty mirage]

still better than exsanguinate

[limber lion]

good on 2t

[gusty mirage]

[limber lion]

poggie

[gusty mirage]

[timid cloud]

I was actually thinking about it today, what was the most overhyped thing about Rogue? I know for Outlaw it was Cannonball Barrage, Guy said the other day “More people talk about it than those that actually played with it.” Or something along those lines.

Was it Kingsbane?

[fleet anchor]

Kingsbane was decent

But like, the funny thing is. As boring as Venom Rush is, after the buff it's actually... kinda ok? Hilariously.

[timid cloud]

Yeah. It was cool. But it wasn’t the real reason we did damage, that was a Poison Bomb maneuver.

[fleet anchor]

It's a 4% talent

That's actually higher than a lot of Rogue talents

Which is sad

[timid cloud]

||Hidden Blades!!!||

[fleet anchor]

Poison Bomb is a 2% talent btw

[subtle tundra]

remove poison bomb

thx

[fleet anchor]

Venom Rush literally twice as strong as PB

[bleak sky]

how bad is CT

without the venth mfd tech

[subtle tundra]

make gameplay altering talents, ty

[fleet anchor]

CT has always been within like +/- 1% of PB in ST

[timid cloud]

I meant during the Legion Kingsbane time.

[bleak sky]

damn our talents suck

wtf

[timid cloud]

PB put us in its backpack.

[muted ivy]

CT is 1.5%

[timid cloud]

I hate reading this. Please no gaslight….

[subtle tundra]

isnt it more with 4pc venth

[fleet anchor]

Elaborate Planning is just shy of 8%

[muted ivy]

4pc is an outlier and just not be counted

[fleet anchor]

Subterfuge is 3.5%

Also worse than Venom Rush

[muted ivy]

[fleet anchor]

Venom Rush is, somewhat hilariously, maybe our 3rd or 4th strongest talent in ST 🤣

[bleak sky]

....how big is alacrity....?

[fleet anchor]

like 9-10%

[bleak sky]

[muted ivy]

god we meme about Exsang when the biggest reason we don't run it is because it's on the 1 talent tier that actually gives us dmg

[fleet anchor]

Yeah currently Exsang is around 3.5%

Honestly if they wanted to lean into the ST vs. AoE thing in the last tier they could replace PB with Exsang

[subtle tundra]

wait. its a dps upgrade?

[timid cloud]

How much is HB? & blindside?

[fleet anchor]

And it might actually make sense

[timid cloud]

God bless, our talents are straight cheeks.

[fleet anchor]

Hidden Blades in ST is uhh

0.3%

[timid cloud]

I feel like a slightly better Feral Druid

[muted ivy]

i don't want Exsang to go to the last tier, i want HB to be replaced with bleed that could interact with Exsang

[fleet anchor]

I mean I guess the design of HB is for burst AoE or something

But CT is just better anyway

[timid cloud]

But a bleed…that’s scaling off our mastery…

[thin imp]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[timid cloud]

HB just makes FOK hit hard whoaaaaaaa!

[muted ivy]

Sin and aoe burst is an oxymoron

[subtle tundra]

sin and aoe*

[muted ivy]

true

[craggy oak]

Something that put rupture on 3+ targets would be the dream

[grave trail]

anyone got a weak aura that shows bleeds correct pandemic during vendetta for my tiny brain

[fleet anchor]

But yeah we only have like 3 talents worth more than 5% and 2 of them share a row.. and, in fact, our top 4 talents share 2 rows. So the rest is pretty much crap.

[spice spire]

So you can go into afenar’s weak aura and make these changes (I’m smooth brained so I did it way differently and bad) and get them to show correctly @grave trail

Cev originally posted this but I can’t find the post from him

Turns out I just manually halved them, fine in a pug raid.
But minor raid leading plus doing mechanics plus prog plus smooth brained means I can’t do the math inside my head like I can in a pug.
Plus yelling at me makes it easier for me

[limber lion]

that's an old reply

I already helped him out with it

how'd you find that lmao

[spice spire]

Oh?

Oh no, I was trying to help out the gentleman above

With the pictures

[limber lion]

Ah okay

[spice spire]

And uh, searched pandemic

Yeah, you’re a golden god chief.
I’m just a pleb that’s a glorified google

[timid cloud]

Quake is the Google search.

[limber lion]

#assassination message

[timid cloud]

I’m Bing

[limber lion]

just got 2p on my druid

[subtle tundra]

fat.

[limber lion]

nicce

[timid cloud]

SHEEEESH

[spice spire]

Also unsure why I didn’t just post the pics I have saved for zethryl

[timid cloud]

U Ned?

[spice spire]

I didn’t either zeth

[limber lion]

I didn't get a single upgrade from our mythic reclear

sadge

[timid cloud]

Yeah, the Afenar ones kinda do pandemic.

[spice spire]

Took me way too long but it’s doable

[timid cloud]

But I dunno if they work with the new stuff, do they?

[limber lion]

No they do not.

That's why you have to manually do it

[timid cloud]

Oh Snapple.

I might’ve been griefing myself.

[limber lion]

do you have 4p

[timid cloud]

Yeah.

[limber lion]

100% griefing then

[bleak sky]

unethical cache bp in keys inc

[spice spire]

See cev’s link above

[timid cloud]

I did it at like…4 & 2

I gotta make sure how bad I griefed.

[subtle tundra]

[timid cloud]

Well I know what I’m spending the next two hours & a half before raid doing…

Im Kermit the frog biting his nails right now.

https://tenor.com/view/the-muppets-kermit-the-frog-smh-shake-my-head-no-gif-4883582

[subtle tundra]

i think halondrus is a nf angle, bomb juggling with venthyr will be sus

[bleak sky]

halondrus is a sub angle ngl

[subtle tundra]

if i had a lot of sub kyrian experience,yea, maybe

but i've only played it once before

[timid cloud]

I'm absolutely playing Sub on Crab

Esp if the 2P keeps breaking for me on that fight.

It keeps me up at night.

[subtle tundra]

i dont want to craft akaari...

for 1 fight

[timid cloud]

I played Akaari in a SD just a moment ago.

With MOS

[muted ivy]

Finality is fine too

[timid cloud]

I wanted to die.

[ebon notch]

these instructions didnt work for me cev

no clue why

double triple checked all the settings and it just didnt change the behaviour of garrote

[limber lion]

Did you add a condition to your current garrote pandemic

to only work when Vendetta isn't active?

[ebon notch]

my garrote only has 4 conditions

is that correct

[limber lion]

show me the conditions

[ebon notch]

i added the one in your screenshot

[limber lion]

idc how many there are

you can have just 2 and make it work

[limber lion]

if you compound them all

[ebon notch]

this is your one

[timid cloud]

I was just about to ask.

I saw that your condition was at #5 so I was wondering what your #4 was.

[limber lion]

You need this one

It's the same one, but with the pandemic turned to 5.4 and the Vendetta condition turned off

You need em both

One for Vendetta, one for without

[ebon notch]

ah ok

[timid cloud]

hm...

[ebon notch]

ill add that cheers

[timid cloud]

Something in the one that I have is already doing a pandemic for some reason.

Lol, fuck I broke a condition. I am so bad with WA's, because I thought condition 1 was doing the same thing.

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[timid cloud]

Well at least I don't have to fix the BTE manually since I won't be playing Outlaw....

[grave trail]

i cant fix it peepo sad

im using luxthos

i can get it to do one or the other but not both even with all conditions

[kindred rapids]

Make sure you're combining them with All of

I mean any of

lol

[grave trail]

to the last condition cev linked?

[timid cloud]

Mine won't let me change the triggers.

https://i.gyazo.com/423e065aec890747586646e088504af8.png

So it's double trigger 1 instead of 2:1 then the <

[obtuse robin]

are u making a new one or trying to edit the already made one

[timid cloud]

Making a new one.

[grave trail]

making new conditions and added the vendetta trigger

[obtuse robin]

i had no problem doing it wierd

[grave trail]

oh yeah its def my small brain

[timid cloud]

Which is strange because look at condition 1 in the entire Afenar setup.

[kindred rapids]

You want Any of [duration < 2.7, All of [duration < 5.4, vendetta not active]]

[obtuse robin]

are u chaning the correct one

there 2 garrots

[timid cloud]

https://i.gyazo.com/41818fb2f4a35ab015a3432d9c38b909.png

Yeah, it was regular garrote.

Not garrrote CD

That is the first condition of that set.

[obtuse robin]

wierd

[grave trail]

ill prob be here all day to figure this one out

its gotta be one of the other 6 conditions messing with it

[storm belfry]

for necro I am seeing some use Marileth, what's the play on that? I been using Bonesmith when I play necro

(in keys)

[spice spire]

Marileth is good.
You spike to keep Kevin uptime as high as possible

[obtuse robin]

actually

i have it with the garrote cd one

it works just fine

the garrote cd icon glows pandemic

when 2 sec

[timid cloud]

Yeah, these have pandemics built in already by the looks of it.

[storm belfry]

for ST?