some Overwatch Intern who got swapped to WoW
#assassination
pallid bough
faint harness
Wdym that sounds awesome
dawn ivy
venom rush should do something with our poisons AS THE NAME IMPLIES
umbral rapids
It needed sl much in 8.3 lol
marble hemlock
you could make a boss encounter where exsanguinate is good, without even changing the talent. thats how bad it is
faint harness
shut garnet
limber lion
I honestly think VR is the worst talent design-wise in the entire game.
umbral rapids
It took so much stuff added for exsang to be good
pallid bough
@faint harness yo but can you imagine if Alacrity gave you whatever your highest stat was?
marble hemlock
VR was our go-to talent in legion
dawn ivy
its certainly at the bottom
marble hemlock
and it was a good talent in legion
dawn ivy
might be tied with others clasases idk
limber lion
VR was amazing in Legion
dawn ivy
but certainly the bottom
limber lion
From an actual good talent that did stuff
marble hemlock
idk why they felt the need to redesign it
limber lion
To -8 energy
dawn ivy
it was one of our best in legion wasnt it
limber lion
Poggie
marble hemlock
you never not played VR
limber lion
it was one of our best in legion wasnt it
Yeh
steel ridge
they could just replace VR with double dose
marble hemlock
unless you were slack or tisu
steel ridge
and be done with it
dawn ivy
yeah it was like alacrity to us now
marble hemlock
and pretended exsanguinate bleed spec was a thing
faint harness
<@!153289634909126656> yo but can you imagine if Alacrity gave you whatever your...
Yea that would be nice, but then it can’t be called alacrity
pallid bough
is there like no metric or anything or data they look at to see talent usage? Because VR isnt used for PvP either
so like
balmy condor
and pretended exsanguinate bleed spec was a thing
The days of green name poison red name bleed
Good times
marble hemlock
ye
pallid bough
Yea that would be nice, but then it can’t be called alacrity
ur right, it gives haste because of lore reasons
marble hemlock
theres a certain need for bad talents to exist
pallid bough
but why
marble hemlock
its a pipedream thats never gonna happen
pallid bough
I mean I would rather have talents that you change based on what the situation demands tbh
but
thats like... a pipedream as you said
faint harness
The talents on the most left side in the tree are all casual player talents meant to be easy and not require any input to do something
marble hemlock
the design for talents is clear. each row has a passive boring thing on the left, an active 500iq (overexaggerated) gameplay changer on the right, and something in the middle in the middle
limber lion
The talents on the most left side in the tree are all casual player talents mean...
Yeh they're passive talents for every spec in the game
marble hemlock
so a casual can just select all the talents on the left and do well
marble hemlock
which, tbf, works for assa
pallid bough
wait
faint harness
And when you start a trial character, I am pretty sure it’s in full left side talents
marble hemlock
idk why
pallid bough
is that actually true
limber lion
Ye
pallid bough
what everything you guys just said
limber lion
It does
pallid bough
because
marble hemlock
sub has it the other way around
marble hemlock
why?
limber lion
I mean it makes sense for new players
dawn ivy
yeah thats their design for most classes
marble hemlock
its intuitive for new players
pallid bough
I mean
dawn ivy
go to wowhead right now and look
limber lion
And people who don't play mmorpgs or can't grasp the concept of talents
dawn ivy
most tlanets on the left are really passive simple talents
faint harness
Left side for sub is the same
pallid bough
But even as a new player, you arent told that "Hey left talents are easy"
limber lion
Some casual players don't know talents even exist
marble hemlock
all the boring passive talents are on the right, all the ones that you would have to play around a lot more to maximize their benefits are on the left 
at least in some of the rows
ES/Sfocus in particular
should be left-side talents, and NS/Dshadows on the right
faint harness
I think they require you to know how to get the most out of dance
Or they don’t do anything
Having 1 dance is probably easier for a casual player that just slams shit on cd
The best dps scenario for DS is to just dance when it’s up
Sounds easy to me
limber lion
The casuals are the majority in the game so it makes sense to tailor to them
faint harness
Sure
marble hemlock
it makes sense to have cookie cutter build talents, and more complex/elaborate ones
faint harness
I don’t think every talent has to be some 5head puzzle game to use
marble hemlock
i honestly like the basic setup talent trees have
limber lion
Wow in itself is tailoring more and more to casuals with every expansion
marble hemlock
left side is easy to use, right side is "difficult" or more complex to use, each row has a specific purpose like aoe, st, survivability, utility
faint harness
Which is fine as long as mythic raids exist
marble hemlock
Wow in itself is tailoring more and more to casuals with every expansion
im not even sure if thats true
limber lion
Which is fine as long as mythic raids exist
Yeh, I mean I'm happy so long as there's content to do.
faint harness
Gloomblade should be on the left in the sub tree tho
dawn ivy
it makes sense to have cookie cutter build talents, and more complex/elaborate o...
yeah something that requires elaborate planning yeah
marble hemlock
theres a lot of changes, like introducing m+ score to the game itself, that makes life harder for casuals who just play 2-3hrs a week maybe
umbral rapids
Wow in itself is tailoring more and more to casuals with every expansion
Lmao tell that to everyone malding about mage tower
marble hemlock
class balance is entirely revolving around high-end pve performance in raids, with some rare exceptions
faint harness
I think wow could do more in making solo player difficult challenges, or at least I thought so. Roll out the mage tower and every casual player is mad they can’t do it first day
umbral rapids
Yeah I’d like more solo stuff
marble hemlock
thats because the game hasnt really been punishing failure recently
frankly, this isnt a game issue. its a cultural one.
participation awards, helicopter parents, everyones child is special and above average etc.
faint harness
And I think the new torghast thing is very cool, the boss gauntlet
marble hemlock
kids arent used to rejection or failure anymore
limber lion
im not even sure if thats true
Yeah, but we've also moved away from complex talent trees to what we have now, from unique gearing choices to boring mainstat+2secondary stat items (and much more ilvl focused now than back in Legion)
And they continue to find ways to make it simpler and simpler
marble hemlock
what complex talent trees?
umbral rapids
And I think the new torghast thing is very cool, the boss gauntlet
What new torggast thing ?
marble hemlock
wow never had complex talent trees
faint harness
What new torggast thing ?
New floor in 9.2 which is just boss after boss after boss
limber lion
You seriously think that a classic talent tree and the current version are on the same level in complexity?
faint harness
No trash no running
subtle tundra
so pew pew paw paw
marble hemlock
yes
limber lion
Sure it's not omega complex
umbral rapids
Oh i missed that
limber lion
But it's much more complex than what we have now
limber lion
Oki
faint harness
Oh i missed that
It’s cool
hollow escarp
old talent trees were just passives we get now by leveling
marble hemlock
only difficult thing about classic talent trees, are not falling asleep while clicking 30 times to play the only viable build, and spending 50g becuase you accidentally missclicked and took 25% extra armor instead of 1% crit
umbral rapids
It’s cool
I’ll look at it later 
really don’t like torghast currently so I’m down for new stuff
regal cloud
- pay every respec
limber lion
It might not be complex for you, but it surely is for a casual andy
Much more than having 3 choices to choose from
muted ivy
what complex talent trees?
It had more icons so it was more complex 
limber lion
100 talents or whatever vs 24
marble hemlock
theres nothing complex about classic trees, becuase only like 20% of the talentsi n there actually do something for throughput/output
umbral rapids
Honestly you just look for a guide and click whatever it says
pallid bough
<@!129828573472096256> bro that trinket gave me 200 dps
Ya it’s big
limber lion
Something being good or bad doesn't make it more or less complex
marble hemlock
something having more or less choices, doenst make it more complex either
limber lion
Fair enough
marble hemlock
its the setup and the meaningfulness of the choices that make it complex
and when 70-80% of the changes are just RPG-style "get more armor/the ability you never use now is 5% better" style choices
marble hemlock
thats not really adding complexity, its just about "which utility you wanna use as filler points to get to the good stuff"
marble hemlock
there were some interesting choices in some trees
limber lion
It's not about something being impactful or not
pallid bough
I think current talent system are definitely more defining or game changing
limber lion
It's about how easy it is to understand and utilize as a casual player
muted ivy
Y’all just don’t get it, classic was the peak of game design 
subtle tundra
classic talent tree be like "parry chance"
limber lion
And I still believe that current trees are 10000 times easier
pallid bough
When I started playing in Wotlk I was like what the fuck is this
marble hemlock
neither talent tree design is complex in that sense
pallid bough
Yes
limber lion
Qhen there's only 3 choices every level
limber lion
Abd you don't have to plan ahead
marble hemlock
the only thing that really mattered, was getting the new ability unlocks from your passive tree. unless you purposefully clicked all talents in rows 1 2 and 3, you got those
pallid bough
Also
limber lion
Because each branch is its own thing
pallid bough
Old trees were annoying because you were forced to spend on dumb shit to advance in the spec
limber lion
But anyways
limber lion
We can all agree that the talent trees have always been shit
marble hemlock
doesn tmatter what the fuck you clickd in restodruid as a casual, as long as you somehow made it to the end by clicking 30times, you could get your tree form. thats all that mattered.
limber lion
Back in vanilla and now
pallid bough
Anyone remember hunger for blood for sin last tier? It was so bad that you didn’t even take it
marble hemlock
wdym
pallid bough
It gave you 5% damage buff as an enrage
marble hemlock
it was great
pallid bough
Yeah
limber lion
assa rules, sub drools
pallid bough
People stopped at Mutilate
pallid bough
Oh
marble hemlock
stealing warriors rend
pallid bough
marble hemlock
no one gave a shit about parses
pallid bough
marble hemlock
but hfb was a nobrainer in a raid cuz you just consumed some bleed that no one cared about
loud light
hey blizzard themselves said parses aren't real, they're just a player construct
fair game
marble hemlock
The community is way too obsessed with parsing, actually. I do agree with that.
muted ivy
“I know we’ve made this challenging and competitive content, but do y’all really have to compete with each other??” Some blizz dev probably
marble hemlock
Parse and sim culture is a poison
limber lion
Parse and sim culture is a poison
The only reason to play the game
pallid bough
^
limber lion
pallid bough
Unironically
marble hemlock
Glad I dont raid with any of you parse-chasers
regal cloud
Only reason to play the game is kidney people 
shut garnet
whats wrong w parse/allstar/top ranks chasing
hollow escarp
parsing in private log guilds 
pallid bough
You know what is cringe and toxic tho
shut garnet
its degen as fuck now with externals and no separate partition for people who actually wanna play the game but o well
pallid bough
FUCKING EXTERNALS
shut garnet
pallid bough
Checks logs, sees some fuck head with 30 fucking buffs
marble hemlock
whats wrong w parse/allstar/top ranks chasing
idk, ask the shaman who uses earthquake and stormele to pad on adds and then does healer-dps during p3 bossburn on fatescribe yday
limber lion
Externals are ass, next topic.
shut garnet
LMFAO
marble hemlock
almost making us wipe
hollow escarp
its degen as fuck now with externals and no separate partition for people who ac...
idk, it's fun to see people with no externals do more damage than others with 20 externals
pallid bough
idk, it's fun to see people with no externals do more damage than others with 20...
True
shut garnet
idk, it's fun to see people with no externals do more damage than others with 20...
ye but this just doesnt rly happen anymore
esp when its not the apes getting external’d
hollow escarp
check sylvanas logs
marble hemlock
imagine just killing the boss
shut garnet
the first 10 are all buffed to shit
marble hemlock
and not giving a shit about your dps
limber lion
ye but this just doesnt rly happen anymore
Not with KA giving over 1k dps yeh
shut garnet
is not gonna add another ONE K DPS
limber lion
Was fine with just PI.
shut garnet
to his no external log
pallid bough
and not giving a shit about your dps
I mean in the sense for optimization, it’s always good to do your best no?
limber lion
and not giving a shit about your dps
But where's the fun in that?
marble hemlock
"who wants my tricks? selling to highest bidder"
"you can have my DI if i get your tricks"
"nice"
pallid bough
You are playing an MMORPG after all
marble hemlock
fucking shoot me
shut garnet
ye but seli’s point is that u can minmax ur dps to kill the boss without parsewhoring
pallid bough
Game is all about min-maxing
shut garnet
parsewhoring isnt minmaxing dps for the sake of killing the boss
limber lion
Where's the fun in killing the same bosses same time every week
pallid bough
Oh
marble hemlock
game is what you make it about
pallid bough
Yeah
shut garnet
its maximising YOUR overall without carin wtf else goes on
pallid bough
Parse whoring is cringe
marble hemlock
parse whoring inevitably leads to wiping becuase people paid more attention to their parses than the mechanics
marble hemlock
cuz your epeen is too small to deal with the fact you only have blue and purple parses in a HoF guild
faint harness
A good player can swap between parse whoring and playing for kill mid pull.
pallid bough
Inting because you wanna do a big parse and wasting 19 other peoples time is dumb
faint harness
If needed
marble hemlock
yeah push
pallid bough
Yeah
shut garnet
ye if it gets that bad ppl will just get told to drop it or fuck off in most guilds id imagine
marble hemlock
how many of those people do you know?
faint harness
how many of those people do you know?
I am not sure tbh 
marble hemlock
and throw a pull
shut garnet
20ppl in colour
pallid bough
how many of those people do you know?
Me actually
shut garnet
pallid bough
Unironically
faint harness
20ppl in colour
pallid bough
Raid leader tells me to funnel KT because damage is low, I don’t aoe spikes
While other people are padding
On dumb shit
faint harness
Same
limber lion
compared to parse whorers
Also more often than not, actual parse whorers are people who don't even have giga parses. Mainly sitting at purple trying to grind out oranges
Or so I've found
faint harness
I am a raid leader simp, I just do what he tells me
marble hemlock
had tank ask for healthstones yday 5sec into a pull. wl just replied "yeah, lemme just cast soulwell real quick during my tyrant ramp"
in progress, he wouldve done that
pallid bough
But usually if something goes wrong, I am the first one assigned as back up
umbral rapids
compared to parse whorers
bruh in lower ranks you just play with parse whores that can't parse 
faint harness
I even ran with a ball on remnant in my 1 week with KA. Imagine that, how many of you in here would do that with giga buffed parse run
hollow escarp
bruh in lower ranks you just play with parse whores that can't parse <:KEKW:7442...
collecting empowered puddles on tarra with fear circle on just to "impress the guild as a new trial"
marble hemlock
just fucking suck
shut garnet
I even ran with a ball on remnant in my 1 week with KA. Imagine that, how many o...
shouldve left it and flamed the DH
marble hemlock
idk if i get fear and dont get massdispelled from the SP who has dispel ready
i just shadowstep them
faint harness
He was dead tbf
umbral rapids
collecting empowered puddles on tarra with fear circle on just to "impress the g...
getting hit by every swirlie on sylvie prog cause "mah uptime reee"
faint harness
I wouldn’t dare troll my mages like that
umbral rapids
lol root of power
pallid bough
I think people don’t understand the fact that there are 19 other people whose time is being wasted because you (the parse whore player) are wasting their time @marble hemlock
And I think that is the more concerning issue
marble hemlock
exactly
pallid bough
That 19 other people are also here and you don’t respect their time
muted ivy
getting hit by every swirlie on sylvie prog cause "mah uptime reee"
Getting hit by every swirly cuz all they keep using extremely similar colors for the floor and ability indicator 
marble hemlock
our entire guilds goal is to clear as quickly as possible
so we can do more fun things
than play wow
pallid bough
I like to parse well but I will NEVER jeopardize my raid to do so
limber lion
also love running into mages standing in melee in their root of power
My favorite is the Havoc DH Fel Rushinh through the melee group with the fear on Tarragrue
marble hemlock
not like the 20th reclear of SoD is fun
pallid bough
Like I really do like to parse but never for the sake of my raid being slow or some dumbshit
limber lion
not like the 20th reclear of SoD is fun
Exactly, that's why you make it fun by aiming for parses
marble hemlock
but its not fun for everybody
limber lion
That's why most people do it
marble hemlock
so youre making things less fun
limber lion
Yeh exactly
limber lion
There's a fine line between good parsing
marble hemlock
fun at the expense of others isnt fun worth having
limber lion
And degen hours
pallid bough
Right
But it depends ya?
Like asking the Venthyr boomy to swap to Kyrian
For example
marble hemlock
and i dont mind raidruns that are specifically designed to let people parse
pallid bough
That’s dumb
marble hemlock
i mind people deciding by themselves theyre gonna play for parses tonight and stop doing their jobs
or start using CDs differently
pallid bough
Ah
marble hemlock
and suddenly something doesnt die anymore
marble hemlock
its not fun consistently having 10-15stacks of debuffs on tara
pallid bough
I already told my guild that I am gonna play my best but not be some parse fiend until I am full bis
marble hemlock
because im the only one who actually moves to soak shit
urban thistle
seli looking forward to the first assa m+ season ever?
pallid bough
And they even offered to feed me PI, KA and Blessing of Autumns for 1 night
I said nah
marble hemlock
its not fun throwing off 50-70% of the orbs on nerzhul
cuz the DH and monk cba
no zeph
dry void
are we exsa yet
pallid bough
seli looking forward to the first assa m+ season ever?
Wdym bro is Outlaw next tier
marble hemlock
yeah but our warriors are perpetually trapped in a 
so they cant move to throw off orbs
urban thistle
i died to my intermission chain on sylvanas on my warrior today
shut garnet
shut garnet
fwd warriors pov
urban thistle
through ignore pain
urban thistle
yea i do actually
balmy condor
marble hemlock
ye
urban thistle
yea i use iron stomach
balmy condor
I’ll peg your ass seli bend over
marble hemlock
look at him thinking this is us being heated
idk
leeching and elusiveness are so good
balmy condor
Cheat death is crazy
marble hemlock
in like
balmy condor
You’re insane
faint harness
that i played cheat on sylv
You did
balmy condor
Did you play cheat on painsmith?
faint harness
marble hemlock
cuz i was prepping to soak for a tank dying
and wanted to have cheat as extra survivability
giving me 2-3more sec before i needed to cloak off debuffs
cheat was nice on painsmith in case you fucked up spikes
cuz you actually lived
balmy condor
Okay not too insane
fallow otter
Accidentally hug some balls
balmy condor
Just a little insane
shut garnet
imagine not being able to evasion walk thru balls smh BLISART
marble hemlock
CN in particular was just a crazy good leeching tier
balmy condor
I promise to use leeching on some fights next tier in your honor seli
pallid bough
playing cheat death in progression
Btw I played Elusiveness for Sylv prog
shut garnet
sounds like a healer affix to me bro
pallid bough
It’s fucking nuts
kindred rapids
I used leeching on nerzhul. No reason to ever need cheat on that fight.
marble hemlock
the reason i dont like cheat, is because 9/10times as a rogue
you proc cheat when 15+ people are dead already
marble hemlock
if you die first as a rogue
pallid bough
Die*
marble hemlock
you already fucked up
balmy condor
We get it seli you don’t eat mechanics like a sponge like the rest of us mortals
marble hemlock
exactly
kindred rapids
On sylvanas there's a few times where cheat is nice, like waiting for intermission with 5 stacks.
shut garnet
seli are u still raidleading next tier?
marble hemlock
On sylvanas there's a few times where cheat is nice, like waiting for intermissi...
thats when you call for bop
fallow otter
Imagine getting hit by rive lol
pallid bough
thats when you call for bop
Or elusiveness to reduce the ticks
strange python
if you die first as a rogue
I'm always top damage taken and lowest deaths on our sylv farm. Are you proud
marble hemlock
cause technically its by far the least useful of the defensive talents
when both elu and leeching are so much better
hollow escarp
Imagine getting hit by rive lol
0 times in 360 pulls 
strange python
360 :o
marble hemlock
theres not a whole lot of oneshots in raids anymore, so i feel cheat lost a lot of value
fallow otter
cause technically its by far the least useful of the defensive talents
It's like getting improved death on preist, gtfo. Noty lol
marble hemlock
its mostly ticking damage
which is what both elu and leeching are really good against
strange python
I like cheat to eat mechanics like sentinels
marble hemlock
just evasion?
strange python
And Eye beam
kindred rapids
Evasion doesn't work sometimes I swear
shut garnet
evasion is like the least consistent ability in the game
with what it works and doesnt work against
strange python
What about when our tank turns colossus around last second and cleavewrecks us?
balmy condor
Evasion doesn't work sometimes I swear
Skill issue
marble hemlock
100%
fallow otter
0 times in 360 pulls <:Stronge:916823619601068132>
:catJAM:
marble hemlock
unless you turn away from them
shut garnet
ah ye i just meant shit like
hollow escarp
^^
nova flax
I use evasion and spin around in circles really fast because i live on the edge
marble hemlock
and you only ever get 1 sentinel unless someones dead
shut garnet
AoEs around mobs f.ex, it'll work for some but not others
marble hemlock
if you got a sentinel on 2nd arrows, its impossible to get sentinel on 3rd
and vice versa
hollow escarp
also I don't think 1 sentinel melee even procs cheat
shut garnet
if u got ur back turned
hollow escarp
hmm
shut garnet
fok parse
hollow escarp
fok 
balmy condor
Alacrity uptime
strange python
Need alacrity uptime
balmy condor
shut garnet
balmy condor
HUGE
hollow escarp
alacrity for 40 sec afk phase
marble hemlock
to hit
timid cloud
Fresh target hits for 3%!
marble hemlock
shut garnet
bro that boss usually gets told
timid cloud
HUGE GAINS
marble hemlock
then why do you need alacrity
kindred rapids
Boss is done
strange python
We hold damage on sylv for 2 minutes and I get big yelled at if I touch her
strange python
So it's up for p2
shut garnet
its an SS BP angle
strange python
I keep it up whole fight obv
hollow escarp
I got called out for having ruptures and garrote up while the boss was pushed 
marble hemlock
so youre saying
balmy condor
I thought you min-maxed
shut garnet
you need alacrity for the next set of adds
kindred rapids
I vendetta intermission too
shut garnet
marble hemlock
necrolord is best covenant for sylv, because bonespike keeps ticking for 99% reduced damgae during p2 and intermission
timid cloud
Imagine not having Vendetta on the boss right as she’s about to phase into chains intermission....
hollow escarp
it ticks for 1-2 damage while everybody else does 0 damage
marble hemlock
^this
strange python
I get yelled at for using throwing knife on sylv to spam snd for alacrity until she actually pushes. Sentinels free combo points
marble hemlock
and if it crits right before your winds of winter is about to chunk the colossus or goliath for 30-50k, it goes on sylvanas instead and deals another 1-2 damage
balmy condor
Pog
fallow otter
Im gonna make all our rogue buyers go necro for 1gold discount
marble hemlock
@faint harness how did sub necro go btw?
shut garnet
sub necro 
faint harness
<@!153289634909126656> how did sub necro go btw?
D3 season took all attention
marble hemlock
faint harness
So it’s not leveled yet
balmy condor
D3
timid cloud
You ever just have...a fat shard on KT ready for downstairs & then it just flies out at the very last second to hit the tank add or the little guys?
balmy condor
timid cloud
No one is playing D3.
faint harness
D3 is fun for a few days
timid cloud
It’s not 2003.
strange python
D3>mythic+
hollow escarp
I'm too bad for D3
timid cloud
That’s a fat fucking cap if I’ve ever seen one.
faint harness
I had decent rng so I kept playing it
fallow otter
Push prefers d3 over mage tower duhh
marble hemlock
sometimes im not sure if whispyr actually hates me, or just makes a pun
hollow escarp
Push one shots the MT
faint harness
3
marble hemlock
or rather, im not sure which option id be more comfortable with
shut garnet
is d3 what comes before the shores of Wraeclast
faint harness
But close
shut garnet
kindred rapids
Is it trolling to ask for PI in P3?
faint harness
Ngl I have played both poe and d3 now and I prefer D3 so far. Don’t kill me
fallow otter
You new to d3?
faint harness
I am too much of a boomer to care about the poe systems
shut garnet
Is it trolling to ask for PI in P3?
no not rly
marble hemlock
thats a sub player take if ive ever read one
hollow escarp
Ngl I have played both poe and d3 now and I prefer D3 so far. Don’t kill me
same, but I played D3 after I had like 1100 hours in PoE
strange python
Is it trolling to ask for PI in P3?
Sylv? Not really. You're probably doing top p3 damage and it's good value on sin. But if you have a competent venthyr Boomie or demo then don't expect it
shut garnet
u can get PI'd in both burns in pt2 and then on ur 2nd p3 vendetta
and its not too troll
faint harness
You new to d3?
No I have played it since release on/off
marble hemlock
actual gameplay of d3 is vastly superior to poe
its just worse in everything else
hollow escarp
gameplay yes, depth no
balmy condor
sometimes im not sure if whispyr actually hates me, or just makes a pun
And you’ll never know
faint harness
I mean I just run in and play hardcore d3, when it’s boring push ladder until death
kindred rapids
Sylv? Not really. You're probably doing top p3 damage and it's good value on sin...
Ok nice. Just switched it from our fire mage.
faint harness
And then wait a few months to the next time
marble hemlock
ill personally cite you in my suicide note if the tension of not knowing eventually leads me to suicide, dw
fallow otter
I've had the most fun in both d3 and poe on hardcore
strange python
ill personally cite you in my suicide note if the tension of not knowing eventua...
Same if I never get a second dag
strange python
But whispyr will get a friendly supportive shout-out
faint harness
I've had the most fun in both d3 and poe on hardcore
I can’t play Poe hardcore, that game will just randomly 1 shot you
marble hemlock
vaughn is gone
strange python
Is he...gaughn?
balmy condor
ill personally cite you in my suicide note if the tension of not knowing eventua...
Would be an honor
faint harness
Also PI + countermeasures is huge value
Huge value
kindred rapids
100k with lust
faint harness
I think you need to revisit the meaning of huge
fallow otter
I can’t play Poe hardcore, that game will just randomly 1 shot you
It's true but getting through the campaign is so much more enjoyable and rewarding. Mapping etc late game... I dont need it to be hardcore, poe makes a good job of making leveling in softcore even difficult
faint harness
It's true but getting through the campaign is so much more enjoyable and rewardi...
Yea for sure
faint harness
Yea it’s pretty good alright
strange python
I mean if you're minmaxing p3s because you're wiping at like 46% then PI probably bigger on demo or Boomie
But if you just wanna tell your raid leader you do big dam and can do bigger dam with PI, sure
strange python
Just make your druid go kyrian and take both externals
south hollow
pi the prot pala 
south hollow
^
hollow escarp
when demolocks/boomies exist
PI the boomie to die in frenzy to swirlies
south hollow
Just give them hp shout they would be happier
strange python
Good demo is good. Bad demo is giga trash
south hollow
good feral is ok, bad feral is omega giga trash
arctic bramble
Anyone seen the new change to sim and outlaw
deft vault
player is better than class imo when it comes to PI unless your in a top tier guild
marble hemlock
yeah i mean
you need a good demo lock for it to be worth
but we have that so
no reason to not give him PI
obviously boomie is better if they have CDs
strange python
I mean if you're playing sin and doing 9k then PI might mean you get to 9500. But a lock doing 8k would get closer to 9k. It's more impactful for their cooldowns
hollow escarp
our best pull p3 
strange python
But if your demo sucks then he sucks
strange python
Okay true
marble hemlock
frankly
theres no reason to play/bring a demo unless he gets PI
they still do good damage but
strange python
Get a resto druid for kindred aff instead.
marble hemlock
they kinda need PI to really show off
strange python
Kindred aff > pi
kindred rapids
True
strange python
I got kindred aff on remnant this week and my winds of winter only crit 35% :)
(51% crit before aff btw)
hollow escarp
time to get better at the game
strange python
:(
marble hemlock
well
good locks do well without PI, but yeah
i think most WLs shouldnt be playing demo
unless theyre good at it, or get PI, or both
strange python
Most locks shouldn't be playing lock
marble hemlock
i actually envy warlocks a lot
strange python
Guaranteed raid spot
marble hemlock
good defensives/utility, and they can pmuch always play atleast 2 specs for cleave/aoe or pure st, and swap between them
strange python
Our warlock envies how much I sit. He never gets a break
marble hemlock
WL can always carry either cleave or st if they swap specs
marble hemlock
what about it
strange python
Am I thinking emerald dream?
Idk what's that one single raid tier warlocks always bring up when someone mentions they're always OP
Nightmare*
marble hemlock
contrary to popular belief i cant read minds, so im simply not sure what youre tryingto say
drifting cloud
prolly EN, lock hasnt had a bad raid since nighthold 🙈
strange python
Our fire mage told me that fire mage was bad in nathria today
marble hemlock
they were gfood in EN, just overshadowed (pun intended) by spriests
marble hemlock
Our fire mage told me that fire mage was bad in nathria today
well, it kinda was
marble hemlock
compared to a lot of other classes, actually
they just happened to have one of the strongest CDs in the game
and CN was all about hard assigning CDs everywhere
its the only reason firemage was viable that tier
but the overall damage output of firemage wasnt that great
strange python
They were fourth on overall dam stats. They were pretty well suited to that raid
hollow escarp
windwalkers are 2nd this tier
doesn't mean they are good in raid outside some encounters
strange python
I see em 5th if you sort by 90th.
marble hemlock
like, mages were fine in CN
but far from being broken
it was basically boomkin lite
good damage during CDs, but no damage outside of CDs
strange python
4th on overall dam and relatively strong on sire is far from "bad" though
marble hemlock
mage wasnt strong on sire either
unless you cound p1 add pad
only thing mage was good for, was combusting attendants
drifting cloud
yeah mage did nothing exceptional on sire
shut garnet
i think peak degen in the last 2 expacs was mage in 8.3, that shit was the best class in all 3 forms of content at all lvls of play
marble hemlock
their p3 dam was shit
dawn ivy
you need to look at boss damage for sire
dawn ivy
not p1 sins damage
shut garnet
current boomie and ww arent even that big offenders if u think of 8.3 mage which is kinda fuckin funny
strange python
Boss dam for sure puts them middle. And ignoring adds as part of the fight isnt fair, you'd struggle like hell on sire without bust for p2
drifting cloud
I mean other classes have cds aswell
strange python
Well WL was absurd for that fight
marble hemlock
youre using hyperbole a lot
its not working out that well
WL wasnt "Insane" for sire either
strange python
Affliction being a multi dot spec that tops boss dam is absurd.
By a decent margin
marble hemlock
affliction really isnt a multidot spec anymore
the cleave spec for WLs is destro, not affli
dawn ivy
affi is like slightly better spriest when it comes to multi dotting
marble hemlock
and spriest isnt a multidot spec either
strange python
That wasn't really the case in 9.0, destro was straight up bad and aff excelled in cleave
dawn ivy
exactly
marble hemlock
and yet on fights like inerva or council, it was demo leading the charts, not affli
dawn ivy
excelling in cleave would mean doing good dmaage to multiple targets
muted ivy
Sire isn’t exactly the best boss to actually judge boss dmg on either
dawn ivy
but affi did great damage on ONE and did SOME damage on a few others
so it looks like cleave is good
marble hemlock
its an awful fight to judge boss damage on, actually
sire didnt really have any outstanding classes
you could kinda play anything
strange python
Inerva was more random burst than cleave. And council sorta the same as far as logs are concerned, damage wasn't being applied to logs from other bosses.
drifting cloud
dk if anything was the best class on sire
strange python
Longer uptime secondary targets favored aff more than destro for sure
muted ivy
dk if anything was the best class on sire
dk if anything was the best class on sire
marble hemlock
which denathrius wasnt
strange python
I'd argue p2 was definitely longer uptime cleave and often where aff put up most of its value
The horsemen living a full darkglare extension is pretty cleave-y imo
strange python
It definitely did, most guilds we're not going into p3 by percentage until later into the patch
marble hemlock
that makes it a good fight for affli, which no one would argue against. but youve basically cycled through multiple specs now saying something was "Insane" somewhere
strange python
So p2 dam directly impacted your dps check in p3
marble hemlock
dunno exactly what point youre working towards
muted ivy
Thts fair
marble hemlock
ye
drifting cloud
if you wanted to kill the boss
marble hemlock
you just wiped if you didnt
strange python
that makes it a good fight for affli, which no one would argue against. but youv...
My points been the same: aff in 9.0 was designed to be a cleave spec (or rather excelled as a cleave spec) and it was the top damage-to-boss spec by a huge margin. That's out of whack
obtuse robin
muted ivy
My points been the same: aff in 9.0 was designed to be a cleave spec (or rather ...
It wasn’t tho
strange python
I, and every single friend I had, we're going into p3 at 48%
drifting cloud
and thats why locks are so high on that chart because they were usually the class that universally would cd boss only in p2
marble hemlock
affli CDs were shit for adds, so they held CDs for boss
which is exactly the opposite of a useful class, when that was most of the difficulty in that phase
you would lose a lot of damage if you had to assign your WLs to the adds. which is what we had to do on evenings where we didnt have mages
strange python
...that's not how darkglare works?
drifting cloud
sire phased at 40% ... if you were going to p3 at 48 you were wiping
marble hemlock
it was preferable to have locks blast the boss
muted ivy
Sire is a terrible boss to link without context to determine a classes boss dmg
strange python
sire phased at 40% ... if you were going to p3 at 48 you were wiping
Psure it was 45 before the nerf
marble hemlock
it was 40
drifting cloud
nerf was to like 37
marble hemlock
39, actually
drifting cloud
no it was 40.5 seli 😛
muted ivy
muted ivy
There’s ST boss dmg tier list if you actually want to know
marble hemlock
mhye
i dont have
decimal%
so it shows as 41% for me
but you would typically let locks blast boss on CD and have classes like hunter/monk/rogue/mage cd on adds
which required holding onto CDs later on, so youd get 2 uses in P3
muted ivy
The real boss dmg metric you want to find is P3 dmg to boss
drifting cloud
iirc the best part about fire mage was you could if you had 2 or 2 boomies you could blow up the first ranged add
and have way more people on the boss+add
marble hemlock
ye
i mean
obviously im assuming
that you did 2+2
so having 3mages solo first add
was nice
limber lion
The real boss dmg metric you want to find is P3 dmg to boss
More like p3 execute damage
marble hemlock
but yeah, regardless, i dont really see the point of saying some class was super good in a certain bossfight, when thats not even true, and even if it was, i dont understnad how thats an issue
limber lion
SP was a great pick because it had insane st and one of the best executes.
marble hemlock
a class being really good at what it does is kinda to be expected
muted ivy
More like p3 execute damage
Thts basically the same thing Cev
limber lion
Thts basically the same thing Cev<:PogO:812265720682905620>
Boss damage and execute damage is not the same
muted ivy
Gotta wait 5% for the executes to start
limber lion
You linked a hungering devourer chart
marble hemlock
WLs usually have 2 playable specs, that let them fill different niches and carry damage. i like that.
muted ivy
Ohhhh
limber lion
Which is far from the truth
muted ivy
Nah hungering was just an example of overall boss dmg
Harder to just pull up P3 dmg of sire
drifting cloud
I remember sp were doomsdaying since they didnt do good on hc week and they were beyond useless on slg
marble hemlock
only absolutely busted class in CN was spriest
drifting cloud
so most guilds ran 1 sp max
but a few months in they were super valuable esp on last phase of sire
limber lion
Yeh
muted ivy
We gonna pretend dks didn’t exist?
marble hemlock
they didnt
drifting cloud
imagine if dk mastery didnt get nerfed hc week
marble hemlock
still dont get peoples obsession with DKs in CN
drifting cloud
that would have been a tier for sure
marble hemlock
yeah, some guilds played a lot of them
muted ivy
Unholy was like 3-4 in execute ya
hollow escarp
WF guilds used DKs for AMZ, that's about it
muted ivy
- execute
marble hemlock
cuz you got lifted out of it
muted ivy
AMS nutty as fuck
marble hemlock
and they did the same/slightly more dam
ams let them avoid a lot of mechanics
which was very nice
limber lion
Depends a bit which timeline you're looking at as well right
limber lion
9.0 and 9.0.5 were different beasts
drifting cloud
Iam forever tilted warriors could spell reflect p3 knockback and cloak did nothing
🙂
marble hemlock
we never had more than 1 DK and it was totally fine
muted ivy
My guild had legit 0 dks the whole tier
drifting cloud
we had 0 aswell
muted ivy
But they were still very good
marble hemlock
for sure
limber lion
We had one and he was pumping
strange python
Feels like rose colored glasses to say aff wasn't way out of line in 9.0. aff in 9.0 was so nutty that Blizzard tried to nerf it into the ground for 9.0.5 until it became clear how much that would hinder prog for guilds still progging
marble hemlock
but nowhere near as "required" as boomies were this tier, for example. or mages in nya
obtuse robin
drifting cloud
yeah like its just revisionist history its like seli said
outliers sure, but there were far bigger ones
for every tier before that
muted ivy
Tht I can agree with
marble hemlock
Feels like rose colored glasses to say aff wasn't way out of line in 9.0. aff in...
thats because bringing 2 or maybe even 3 warlocks isnt "out of line". its just regular raid comps. a class is out of line if you stack it to the point it gets stupid. your definition of "out of line" just isnt the same as ours
strange python
9.1 Boomie and 8.3 destro/fire being dumpster fires of balance doesn't really mean 9.0 aff wasn't absurd in the context of 9.0.
marble hemlock
affli didnt carry any bossfights by themselves. you didnt even stack them
it was a good spec, sure. but thats about it
wild spirits was out of line, to the point you needed 4 or more of them to beat shield DPS check on SLG
strange python
Let's be honest the real reason people didn't stack affli was because: top players thought aff was going to be bad until halfway through prog, and because no one wants to play warlock and aff was one of the least enjoyable specs in the game
drifting cloud
and yeah locks also sucked on slg lmao
obtuse robin
rogue wasnt out of line in tomb it was just preferable to have 5
same for sub on zul 
drifting cloud
the real endboss
strange python
I'd bet money if there was a 9.0 classic in 10 years from now the meta comp would be stack locks for every boss but slg
muted ivy
marble hemlock
so in reality affli wasnt really played that much, but theoretically and when changing goalposts 7times it was super broken. not sure who is wearing rose-tinted glasses here
muted ivy
And dh
strange python
I said aff was an overly strong spec in 9.0 and your argument for me "moving goal posts" is that other specs were better in other tiers. That's an...interesting way to frame who's moving the goal posts.
But alright, agree to disagree.
marble hemlock
you kinda wanted 1 DH tank anyway for deny, cause it was by far the easiest to get the boss to the hand of destruction spots with it
marble hemlock
I said aff was an overly strong spec in 9.0 and your argument for me "moving goa...
i didnt bring up other specs at all, i straightup explained to you why affli wasnt "out of line" on fights like deny or SLG, or how affli wasnt even the best WL spec on some fights in that tier
deft vault
i mean balance wise shadowlands has actually been pretty good imo
locks were top tier in nathria but they werent absolutly broken
marble hemlock
idk which affli lock peed in your mailbox in CN, but besides the fact that affli was a good spec (but not broken), there also happens to be much better cases of specs being completely out of line, so i simply dont understand what your problem with affli in 9.0 is, or how you even felt its worth moving the discussion from "had to laugh at my firemage friend who said mage wasnt that good in CN" to talking about affli locks in CN
strange python
I played aff in 9.0 :)
strange python
LOL
marble hemlock
im also not sure if the assassination channel is the best place for that conversation (i actually am sure, its not)
so for anyone who actually wants to continue it, how about we move it to #wow-general
strange python
Blizzard tried to axe it in 9.0.5 and backed off because of how crucial aff damage windows became for guilds still progging.
I mean it's fine, pointless at this point anyways. The words I'm saying are being addressed in ways I'm not saying them. Just move on with our lives.
marble hemlock
people just happen to disagree with you.
obtuse robin
lets go back to how good our rogue tier sets are and hide the sims from the nerf bats
were show what an overpowered spec is if that goes threw
marble hemlock
dunno
drifting cloud
im pretty sure the g uy that made the tier set is aware
marble hemlock
our set bonuses kinda have to be a bit on the stronger side, since we lost more damage from shards going away than other specs
drifting cloud
hes just gonna number tweat it after holidays
marble hemlock
like
i had the discussion last night with a warrior of ours
how its gonna suck losing 20% of our damage
and he argued "yeah but other classes lose damage too"
and i said "yeah, but not 20% of your damage"
and he said "yeah, but almost the same, like 10%"
drifting cloud
yeah I mean just remember if frost set didnt get buffed
marble hemlock
and i said "so, we lose twice as much damage as you"
drifting cloud
this tier would be super sub favored
obtuse robin
lol
marble hemlock
and he said "i procced my podtender again because i didnt press my defensive"
and that ended the discussion
he didnt actually say taht though, but thats what happened
muted ivy
drifting cloud
you can proc pod with him in 9.2 seli
you seem like a guy who would use the fox soulshape
marble hemlock
no
muted ivy
Is this a Cev summoning ritual?
marble hemlock
id use hippo
obtuse robin
well hopefull we can communicate what u just said to the dude balanacing us
they seem to be listening
marble hemlock
hippo soulshape is the only one that gives extra damage
normal mist
id use hippo
Sneaky
marble hemlock
i mean, im sure blizz is somewhat aware of the disparate benefits of domshard sets that different specs/classes get
it'd make sense for them to balance the replacement rental powers around a similar powerlevel, so theres no massive core-class balancing needs that arise
its actually the first time that rental powers disappear going into the next tier within the same expansion
we always kept our powers throughout the expansion
drifting cloud
wonder how fast you can get 4pc in 9.2
raven vapor
great ty
dawn ivy
honestly do we care about 4pc when 2pc is the way it is
marble hemlock
yes
dawn ivy
i think as it stands you want to rush 2pc and then trade to others
dawn ivy
WHO ALSO have huge 2pc
hollow escarp
not today
limber lion
Trade to others? How many rogues do you have in your guild?
Imagine having more than 1 rogue
Yuk
limber lion
Never been that way
raven vapor
is it tokens or straight tier drops?
limber lion
But we'll see
But we did have master loot back in legion when we still had class sets
marble hemlock
its kinda sad, honestly. i get the idea behind the 2pc and everything, but it just feels kinda wrong to ahve it increase damage of posions+bleeds by 100%, when shiv itself+WPS conduit increase only poison damage by ~35-40, and only on one target
limber lion
But yeh, every class has unique appearances and effects
strange python
4 set enables tiny cooldown vendettas which is a huge value if you ever need priority damage or shield busting damage
limber lion
So it's safe to assume there's sets for everything and nothings dhared
dawn ivy
either way i have to sit next to junky boy so yeah my best case scenario is probably 2 rogues in on bosses 
drifting cloud
dont worry he will play outlaw
limber lion
its kinda sad, honestly. i get the idea behind the 2pc and everything, but it ju...
Idk, I really like the concept personally. It's the best thing to do when it has to be linked to Shiv
marble hemlock
oh ofc
marble hemlock
but as i said earlier, its a bandaid fix, and a really big one at that
limber lion
But this is gucci as well
marble hemlock
if you have to improve shiv functionality by like 500%
dawn ivy
nah we've only really played sin/sub for the last few weeks i havent seen him play outlaw since i joined
marble hemlock
for it to be a button worth pressing
