default should be 0 externals
#assassination
hollow river
strange python
Problem is then you have classes with externals who feel punished for using them
timid cloud
A Priest using their own PI is fine.
strange python
Yeah I mean like, for us, making the kill as fast as possible to fit sales and full clear into 1 night means some DPS checks (looking at you KT) that PI genuinely helps with when we're down 2-4 players
Feels bad to punish the players getting PI. But also unfair to those that don't get it.
I just wish blizzard would remove externals
hollow river
agree
and remove raid buffs
i believe there's a standard that most mythic raiders want
cross faction, cross realm from week 1, make the lock out system same as Heroic, remove raid buffs
removing externals is probably a bit more controversial than those
slow marsh
MONK
hollow river
slow marsh
hollow river
warlocks be greedy
oak sky
dude you know all the demo locks on top 100 have pi right?
limber lion
dude you know all the demo locks on top 100 have pi right?
Yes?
strange python
and remove raid buffs
I'd settle for significant redundancies, instead. I like raid buffs, makes you feel more powerful. But no reason there shouldn't be at least one backup for each one
limber lion
You can get r1's without externals
slow marsh
Demo is somewhat underwhelming without PI I think
oak sky
of course
timid cloud
Boomkin is pretty wild with it too.
strange python
That's like 100% of monks tho
oak sky
demo seems like a special case in this respect though
timid cloud
Yeah, that spec is in a weird spot though.
hollow river
I'd settle for significant redundancies, instead. I like raid buffs, makes you f...
i mean, if there's raid buffs, every class should bring one. (while multiple share the same ones of course)
oak sky
like of course on our class you can get r1 vs people with a couple externals
limber lion
So if you're a god player who can beat people who get externals as someone who can't
then you should be beating them with externals as well
slow marsh
I don't think EVERY class should bring a raid buff
strange python
You definitely should be getting some with externals
If you're in a guild where everyone is relatively even then maybe not
slow marsh
they should bring something true
limber lion
If you're in a guild where everyone is relatively even then maybe not
What does that mean?
strange python
I don't think EVERY class should bring a raid buff
Every class but rogue and Hunter does right now tho
oak sky
thats not a raid buff
hunter has binding shot which is good every once in a while
but not really enough
slow marsh
i'm completely fine with rogue not having utility and having pure damage
dawn python
.0
slow marsh
as long as we're tuned appropriately
oak sky
idk i would like to have something small
strange python
What does that mean?
I mean if you're in a raid comp with one priest healer and one druid then only so many externals can go out. There's plenty of top 50/100 guilds where you can be great at your class, but someone else is just as good and a better fit for the external
slow marsh
Ofc I would also like something small but just speaking from a design perspective
limber lion
I mean if you're in a raid comp with one priest healer and one druid then only s...
Sure
Don't get discouraged by externals
strange python
Blizzard is never going to intentionally make rogues do more dam than other classes just because we don't have a buff though. They're perfectly happy to have moonkins and warlocks be giga every tier
slow marsh
Ideally if a spec doesn't have utility it should have an edge over specs with utility concerning damage
limber lion
just kick their asses
strange python
I'm not discouraged, just a little sad about it.
limber lion
dirty external users
strange python
I do take a lot of pleasure in smashing p3 sylv dam every week without it tho
limber lion
sure is sad but not much we can do
limber lion
I do take a lot of pleasure in smashing p3 sylv dam every week without it tho
exactly
strange python
Despite our 2 full minutes of slow push DPS p1 holding
limber lion
Not having externals gives you a really good comparison of your own performance every week
strange python
We legit hold dps before second sentinels go out
limber lion
Where you can aim to get better every single week
And externals would just mess that up
strange python
And then wait for the veil push
limber lion
I also enjoy doing 11k dps in p3 Sylvanas without externals
I mean, it would be sick doing like 13k with externals
but it kinda loses the point
cerulean nest
is agi tea from theotar worse than just going nanija? i fucked up my timing before raid lol
oak sky
agi is beans
cerulean nest
wordski
strange python
Curious how much of theotars sims is umbrella
They're already close as is
I know mastery is bigbad but given how close they are in Sims...
hollow river
well you also get triple potency on Theo
hollow river
hollow river
LP stOnkz
glass tulip
shiv conduit is potency
oak sky
its decent
strange python
I'm also hyped for the enhance/feral domination in 9.2
glass tulip
All of them are incremental buffs
jaunty steeple
I'm also hyped for the enhance/feral domination in 9.2
good one
glass tulip
none are outstanding but all together its a nice damage increase
glad siren
I like being able to give raid tokens
gusty mirage
until feral gets innervate
strange python
Feral is already huge, it's just hard to justify their melee spot in a raid
gusty mirage
they'll never get a consistent spot
strange python
If feral winds up doing the most single target dam it will find a raid spot
limber lion
We could be DKs...
Their best potency is better than our best potency
but yeah, both are rough
our best potency is locked behind Venthyr though
strange python
Feral already does very similar prio/st damage to rogues in SoD, and their legendaries are bigger+scale with each other
I'm sure tuning and tier sets blah blah blah. I just want the kitties back
gusty mirage
the kitties are back
oak sky
feral does prio how?
gusty mirage
plenty of CE guilds run ferals
strange python
Our boomie plays feral every raid until our RL notices and tells him to go back Boomie
Which is usually 8 bosses
gusty mirage
well yeah
jaunty steeple
hollow river
glad siren
Jesus I wish I was doing 13k sylv dmg... I'm at like 6.8 by the time she is down on heroic
limber lion
hey
strange python
He was talking about just p3 dam I'm almost positive
limber lion
practice makes perfect
limber lion
He was talking about just p3 dam I'm almost positive
yes sir
glad siren
And I felt good about that ... lol damn
glad siren
Ohhh ok
limber lion
around 8.7-9k
strange python
You lose a TON of DPS during intermission and bridge walking in p2
Also depending on how fast shit dies in p2 your bleeds may not get full value
limber lion
they never will
strange python
P2 is the land of dirty hunters and boonies
limber lion
You lose a TON of DPS during intermission and bridge walking in p2
I mean your overall goes down
strange python
Ye
limber lion
but I wouldn't say you "lose" dps
strange python
That's what I meant
limber lion
yeh fair enough
strange python
I get so sad every week watching my total DPS tick down after we call hold dps in p1
hollow river
I get so sad every week watching my total DPS tick down after we call hold dps i...
Just keep doing damage 5head
Did anyone see the dk that soloed +22 SD?
bleak sky
yep, mad lad
glad siren
And timed it?
oak sky
im glad we know at least even though im disappointed about it
thorny pond
Keeping it till next week prevents degenerate playing. Week after thanksgiving*
bleak sky
degen playing is the whole point of ptr tho
thorny pond
degen playing is the whole point of ptr tho
You misspelled “live”
thorny pond
What’s that
bleak sky
cash grab
thorny pond
The Black Friday of WoW?
outer cairn
evening bandits
hollow river
The Black Friday of WoW?
it should be that right now
bleak sky
get that pretty transmog for just 49.99
hollow river
but this battle.net discount only works for like 2 things
bleak sky
what a bargain 
hollow river
get that pretty transmog for just 49.99
$20
hollow river
lvl boost should be discounted ffs
hollow river
last time they did a discount it discounted ALL services
i saw the ad and was like i'm gonna boost 3 characters 
hollow river
yeah those look like meh tier sets tbh
thorny pond
Block pally is back!
strange python
Wording on the tier set is kinda vague
balmy condor
yeah those look like meh tier sets tbh
with how connected things are it could easily skew legendary balance tbh
strange python
Ie: will "transforming" the chest piece in that example literally turn it into tier chest? That's how it sounds at first but then it says "activating the tier set"
Implies maybe you can just slap set bonus on any other piece of gear? Could be some weird tier gear stat prio minmax if so
balmy condor
I mean it says you turn a non set armor piece into a progenitor armor piece of the same ilvl
so I assume normal shit item from m+ -> space dust added -> tier set item
strange python
so I assume normal shit item from m+ -> space dust added -> tier set item
I assume you're right but that final bullets wording is funky
balmy condor
what final bullet
bleak sky
3 set bonuses released, none from classes I play sadge
strange python
Druids are the hero class
balmy condor
it seems pretty clear to me
The Great Vault rewards an ilvl 265 non-set chest piece. Once the Creation Catalyst is unlocked and enough Cosmic Flux has been collected, this can be used to make an ilvl 265 Progenitor armor piece that activates the set bonus.Item in, tier set item of that slot outThe first set bonus is unlocked when two set pieces are equipped, and the second bonus is unlocked when four set pieces are equippedEquip item, get bonus
small basin
are we gonna have to remake the normal legendaries again
hollow river
MONK sets are up
bleak sky
this sounds pretty cool tbh
small basin
for the best stats
balmy condor
are we gonna have to remake the normal legendaries again
probably
hollow river
NEW <DNT> 9.2.0 Class Set - Monk - Windwalker - 2PC Increases Fists of Fury damage by 40%.
NEW <DNT> 9.2.0 Class Set - Monk - Windwalker - 4PC After 10 offensive abilities, your next 3 offensive abilities deal an additional 22% damage.
small basin
so stupid
bleak sky
Increases Fists of Fury damage by 40%.
bleak sky
actually good now? lol
balmy condor
I have to get ready to raid, if rogue set drops spam ping me and I'll update pin
outer cairn
someone just told me that our vampy boi legoo will go on waist
bleak sky
gl on sylv
strange python
I have to get ready to raid, if rogue set drops spam ping me and I'll update pin
You know blizzard doesn't remember we exist
bleak sky
someone just told me that our vampy boi legoo will go on waist
all cov leg on belt it seems
strange python
Expect us to have placeholder tier set until January
outer cairn
@bleak sky but at least that lets us know to craft DB on back
dark token
thorny pond
Looks like the belt or you can craft it on another piece but from the note at the bottom it has to be one of the two?
small basin
seems like you can put the covenant legendary one on a different slot with the memory thing so
bottom says you need to wear the covenant legendary which we already knew
thorny pond
Right but it sounds like we can’t use the original ones we have now?
small basin
no mention of upgrading current ones i guess
bleak sky
wowhead stream is talking about sin rogue
dark jewel
no leaks on rogue sets still 
stray mural
Is it our turn to have a set leak
fallen raven
4pc: Vendetta causes Poisons and Bleeds on your target to expire 100% faster.
2pc: Shiv's debuff causes your Bleeds to gain 25% Critical Strike for 9 seconds.
frosty bridge
Lul
bleak sky
whispyr wanted to be spam pinged right
small basin
that 4 piece looks cool
dawn ivy
2p sounds kinda bland
plush isle
Looks good on Sub and Sin
small basin
outlaw 4 piece seems lame asf
dark jewel
outlaw 4 piece could make it better than sub on raid tbh
muted ridge
oak sky
is this actually it
gloomy knoll
is reallllllllllllll
gloomy knoll
📈
gusty mirage
is reallllllllllllll
go play with your shadow dust traitor
gloomy knoll
it's not about taking exsanguinate you fool
oak sky
if its real we cry for outlaw
gloomy knoll
it's about getting the playstyle without exsang
so now we get all the fun of exsanguinate
without using that dead ass talent
gloomy knoll
go play with your shadow dust traitor
i play w/e spec is good 🙂
strange python
Sin bonuses look super good tbh.
dawn ivy
IMAGINE if outlaw got that 4p last expac
dark jewel
exsanguinate build again 
dawn ivy
HOLY SHIT a free BtE????!!!! id be playing outlaw ffs
strange python
So will sub bonus send all 5 strikes into a single target if there's only one?
dawn ivy
no shot
strange python
It seems legit garbage if it only sends 1
gloomy knoll
you got ce!
dawn ivy
@strange python it says up to 5 other targets
gloomy knoll
dawn ivy
it will almost assuredly hit once on every target
gloomy knoll
don't worry according to my rng it only takes 18+ weeks to get a single dagger
strange python
<@456226577798135808> it says up to 5 other targets
Yeah, but it says sends 5. They could have written "shadowstrike up to five" instead. The wording is really weird
outer cairn
I think Obedience on the belt and DB on the back is going to be the go to
dawn ivy
where does it say sends 5
outer cairn
even though someone was saying it could go somewhere else
dawn ivy
because i only see it saying it has a cap of 5 targets
dawn ivy
even though someone was saying it could go somewhere else
yeah cov leggo will be able to go on any slot
outer cairn
i woudl think so
dawn ivy
most likely
gloomy knoll
damn that's pog
frosty bridge
Deadspike
dawn ivy
i just want to throw as much misinformation out before whispyr can shoot me
gloomy knoll
LOL
frosty bridge
dawn ivy
deathspike gang gang
outer cairn
no way would that bleed work with it
gloomy knoll
dude i'm actually hyped for sin tier set
this shit looks fun af
free exsang 4 pc gimme gimme
frosty bridge
Remember the exsanguinate bug with Bone spike?
strange python
Exsang doesn't work on SBS right? Stands to reason this wouldn't either. But the 2set
frosty bridge
Exsang doesn't work on SBS right? Stands to reason this wouldn't either. But the...
No, there used to be a bug where it did
outer cairn
thats the thing, if you ran exsang would it make your bleeds 200%
frosty bridge
It would make SBS tick double for the entire duration lmao
strange python
Yeah but stands to reason them changing that means this won't either
frosty bridge
They fixed it rather quickly
thorny pond
The recursive exsang SBS broke servers
spice spire
The recursive exsang SBS broke servers
Exsanguinate 4p bonus 6000000000 damage
gilded oasis
gloomy knoll
there's no way
necro sin will be good
with a 0 st gain covenant legendary lmao
and i'll bet money on that
oak sky
balmy condor
pin updated
velvet haven
doomblade back on top? Pog
south hollow
any exanguinate enjoyers?:(
primal elm
Corruption
arctic walrus
strange python
He raiding. Updated pin tho
lethal saffron
that 2 set seems pretty weak
cerulean nest
how we feeling about the bonus?
strange python
4set looks real big for burst. 2set is passive dam and looks pretty good
Not groundbreaking, but looks relatively in line with most other classes' 2sets
Feral and enhance look incredible
spice spire
pin updated
Based pin papi
balmy condor
set bonuses look pretty disappointing tbh especially for m+
sin burst is interesting
sub set looks.... idk, fine?
bleak sky
big ct -> vendetta -> farm dps pog
gaunt halo
The sin one doesn't really change anything about the playstyle. But seems good burst atleast
balmy condor
big ct -> vendetta -> farm dps pog
well the question is do all your bleeds tick 100% faster on the target, or in total
if you pop vendetta and EVERYTHING is 100% faster
then pog
bleak sky
well shit that's a good point
balmy condor
otherwise meh
gaunt halo
I would assume it's just on the vendetta target
balmy condor
that's what I assume as well
oak sky
it says on your target
oak sky
its on your target
balmy condor
oh
bleak sky
give us ptr now
icy ember
yo is exsang the new hype 
balmy condor
no
plush isle
energy regen is nice
gaunt halo
Do we know if we'll keep shard sets? Probably not?
strange python
Do we know if we'll keep shard sets? Probably not?
No
signal badger
alacrity too good
strange python
Why would you run exsang?
icy ember
IDK cuz it is a bleed type
strange python
Nothing in this set really makes exsangs stock rise. The 2set maybe, but that's relatively minor and you'd lose soooo much haste
icy ember
true i spose
strange python
For exsang to be good you'd have to have enough haste to offset alacrity
icy ember
i guess i'm looking for something that isn't there
strange python
And the 4set has a built in exsang that presumably wouldn't work together
gaunt halo
With the 4 set bonus you'll likely be energy capped anyway during vendetta so exsang just seems wasted
subtle tundra
mates, exsang has 0% chance of being played, stop coping
weak bane
its fine we just get it built in now woot
gaunt halo
Exsang might get interesting in pvp though
cedar star
marble hemlock
balmy condor
the tier set (for exsang balance) essentially reads you have 25% crit and 100% haste
and we've tested this many times
100% crit and 125% haste with a 30 second cooldown
is not good enough
for exsang
and that's 100% crit 125% haste on EVERY exsang
humble ginkgo
spice spire
But nightstalker synergy could be sick
Ngl
I’m hopeful but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 
subtle tundra
im happy with the 2 set, it actually has value in aoe poggers
outer cairn
i wonder if our opener will change a bit or will we recast garrote again for max uptime before we go into vendetta
balmy condor
im happy with the 2 set, it actually has value in aoe poggers
no it doesn't
shiv debuff is single target
subtle tundra
it doesnt specify a single target though?
copper sundial
would it only affect the bleeds on your current target then?
balmy condor
shiv DEBUFF
subtle tundra
it says bleeds
balmy condor
is the specify
spice spire
Yeah debuff gives it away here
copper sundial
feelsbad
subtle tundra
cba
outer cairn
or actually we'll probably have to just reapply garrote and rupture more in the vendetta window instead of being able to mut/envenom so much
subtle tundra
sin never gains aoe shit
dry void
sin already has aoe
bleak sky
fok ct great aoe 
marble hemlock
its gonna be fewer envenoms
not more
cause you ahve to spend more GCDs during vendetta
refreshing bleeds
copper sundial
makes me wonder what secondary legendary would compliment this best
spice spire
More energy regen 
subtle tundra
m-mastery meta??
static rock
so do we use shiv and garrote at 4 cp?
outer cairn
right, especially in that shiv window too
spice spire
m-mastery meta??
Don’t you dare
outer cairn
since 25% extr acrit
balmy condor
seli come to stream I want to talk to you
marble hemlock
im watching
spice spire
I’ll fucking ping him
subtle tundra
man i just want to do decent aoe -.--------------------------------------------------------
outer cairn
i raid over M+ so i'm more about ST
subtle tundra
should've been the rupture azerite power smh
twilit hollow
CT in ST probably takes over entirely now right?
gaunt halo
What's even worse is that some of the other set bonuses seem pretty good for aoe. Putting sin even more behind
bleak sky
whispyr on stream: "It's a mastery pivot" ok bois we're giga stacking mastery up to 204% :YEP:
arctic hare
4 pieces: Vendetta causes Poisons and Bleeds on your target to expire 100% faster.
now that
thats WHEW
arctic hare
Lol
I just wish, that it'd be better aoe, like, sure, its very nice having this stuff, but jeez
bleak sky
rogues last
wdym last
glass tulip
gotta wait til 9.2 to find out our set bonus
strange python
Idk why everyone wants AoE from sin. We have sub and outlaw for that
I like sin as the gigatunnel ST spec.
With energy funnel from rupture
subtle tundra
Idk why everyone wants AoE from sin. We have sub and outlaw for that
cause i like sin?
wdym...
i do m+ as assa
i want it better
bleak sky
cuz i want a better M+ experience
arctic hare
Same
glass tulip
ITS OUT
bleak sky
yep what varas said
strange python
Wanting sin to have better AoE means you need lower ST or else it becomes broken.
glass tulip
arctic hare
I do both m+ and raid lol
strange python
You want sin to be something it isn't
arctic hare
Wanting sin to have better AoE means you *need* lower ST or else it becomes brok...
dude, have you met DH?
bleak sky
https://www.wowhead.com/news/datamined-rogue-tier-set-bonuses-in-patch-9-2-assas...
it's been out for a while, it's pinned already lol
gaunt halo
Sin doesn't need mega aoe. Just something to keep up
plush isle
strange python
I want a Ferrari that has 7 seats and costs 20k but that's not what they are
subtle tundra
i want sin to be good in m+
glass tulip
I literally refreshed my wowhead and it was 8 seconds old so idk man
subtle tundra
whats the problem with that?
glass tulip
let me be excited lol
strange python
is it a big deal if i use sharpening stone over oil?
bleak sky
I want a Ferrari that has 7 seats and costs 20k but that's not what they are
it's not like we're saying "sin needs to do 300k like aff warlock"
bleak sky
is it a big deal if i use sharpening stone over oil?
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
bleak sky
I literally refreshed my wowhead and it was 8 seconds old so idk man
it was out before the wowhead post but ye
strange python
ily ty
chilly marsh
NEW Grudge Match Shiv's debuff causes your Bleeds to gain 25% Critical Strike for 9 seconds.
NEW Immortal Technique Vendetta causes Poisons and Bleeds on your target to expire 100% faster.
glass tulip
CT would only ever be used on spikes
arctic hare
(going down every phylactery)
I understand your pain
upbeat needle
😦
glass tulip
so you would have maybe 6-7 casts total?
upbeat needle
probably
drowsy hollow
oooo
drowsy hollow
bleed and poisons, yessss
upbeat needle
gotta hold vendetta til first phylactery rip
arctic hare
Fun times
dry void
nightfae exsa when
shut garnet
in nyalotha 2: war of the worlds
plush isle
switched to Sub for Kel
kindred rapids
what about https://www.wowhead.com/spell=340084/duskwalkers-patch ?
Didn't know this existed tbh
chilly marsh
sin burst will be really nice with this set bonus
shiv 40% dmg poison 25% crit bleeds adn vendeta making it thick 2x faster
plush isle
Didn't know this existed tbh
I mean we get more Energy Gain with the Vendetta T-Set Boni, maybe its a good gain, Venthyr Legendary will help too.
slow marsh
This is a setup by Cev
dawn ivy
our burst wont be the strong if we run zold
obviously inside execute, but on pull itll be dooky
pastel pendant
so subterfuge then?
slow marsh
Probs not
oak sky
maybe who knows wait for ptr testing
twilit hollow
duskwalker or doomblade imo
slow marsh
Duskwalker + obed
copper sundial
obedience duskwalker poggy
slow marsh
I was right
lethal saffron
duskwalker toxic onslaught
pallid bough
@lethal saffron wait you still play? 
lethal saffron
oof
pallid bough
we would have gotten it Sunday but there was some weird lag going on instance and lost 1 hr of raiding
trying to reset the instance
was miserable
strange python
4set is going to make faeries a big deal, sadly
outer arrow
arte tier bonuses 
or what
marble hemlock
no
balmy condor
i like where this guy is going
wowhead crackheads man
dawn ivy
just spamming ruptures inside vendetta
marble hemlock
idk, just looking at current damage composition of kills on guardian
both bonuses are like
2.5% dps each
napkin mathed
bleak sky
that does not sound promising
outer arrow
i mean, the other 2 spec bonuses are RNG based so thats a hard pass for me, i either myself into sin or reroll into a more fun spec
marble hemlock
bleeds are 10% of your damage during shiv, so youre looking at 2.5% increase 36% of the time
arctic hare
Hmm, true
marble hemlock
bleeds+dp are ~15% of dam during vendetta, doubling that is a fair amount but its on a 2min CD, and youll be casting fewer envenoms
outer arrow
do we go back to haste based bleed spec like BfA endgame? 
]
hollow river
how are we feeling boys and girls????????????????????
outer arrow
let a man dream
marble hemlock
we have neither
outer arrow
i nutted over my haste % back then
hollow river
vendetta exsanguinate???????
steel bane
Does vendetta leggo gains value?
onyx raptor
hmm could that mean we're switching from MA to Subterfuge?
obtuse robin
possible
brazen zodiac
hey black
obtuse robin
hey you
outer cairn
beat him on the nine 🙂
grand ridge
the outlaw one looks fun. I wonder if exsanguinate will be of any use along with that 4 piece for assassination
versed mica
It won't
grand ridge
the energy regen is going to be crazy during that window
wwith or without exsanguinate
yeah alacrity is just too good i guess
onyx raptor
definetly alacrity stays
outer cairn
as long as alacrity is on the talent tree, we'll always pick it
obtuse robin
viral locust
If it does, I'll shit a brick lol
tardy jolt
Prob already got said but Im thinking Obedience with Duskwalkers
Makes Vendetta 1 min, Flag 1min and every other you get vanish
autumn plaza
onyx raptor
still, stat prio is gonna go more towards haste i reckon if duskwalker becomes viable
tardy jolt
Its a lot of haste then vers on top of the damage of vendetta already
I think it would be a really fun combo either way
Im ready to test it on ptr when it goes up 😛
onyx raptor
Prob already got said but Im thinking Obedience with Duskwalkers
Makes Vendetta ...
with that much haste the question is if we still play with vigor or swap to DS or even MfD to get that flag to be under 1 min
dawn ivy
guys i come from the future, this is the highest simming ST build in the game
grand ridge
lol
onyx raptor
EP would be better imo
twilit hollow
swap off exsang and back to elab and maybe
tardy jolt
with that much haste the question is if we still play with vigor or swap to DS o...
Oh true
I hadnt thought of that
Id imagine so as long as it keeps Vendetta below / around 1min
Def see Subterfuge getting used too
pure walrus
puke no
onyx raptor
Oh true
I hadnt thought of that
Id imagine so as long as it keeps Vendetta belo...
subterfuge is gonna be a big GO
we'll have to overcap subterfuge in that 3 second window just like in 8.3
tardy jolt
CT single target again interesting Could see it being a thing but a pain to maintain too since its such a short bleed
Yepp
Garr > SnD > Garr is opener now lol
dawn ivy
i too enjoy the idea of using envenom once every 30 seconds
tardy jolt
Itll be a nice change for our dam to come from dots again and not all envenom
slow marsh
guys i come from the future, this is the highest simming ST build in the game
you forgot DS > mfd
twilit hollow
why would MFD be worse than DS when its value is increased when you run Obe
slow marsh
na DS rup pog
oak sky
ds is definitely still the play in st
tardy jolt
why would MFD be worse than DS when its value is increased when you run Obe
Im being impersonated 
grand ridge
6 combo points is bigger than 5 simple
onyx raptor
you forgot DS > mfd
mfd is fast combo points during the flag window
dawn ivy
oh thats an interesting question what does this 4p do to vigor/DS/MFD
slow marsh
EP/DS has come
polar cape
what about snapshoting nightstalker rupture <.>
twilit hollow
@tardy jolt been mal for 15 years chief
oak sky
i mean it also just generally makes all your finishers do more damage
slow marsh
mfd is fast combo points during the flag window
we will have enough haste to get 30 stacks auto
oak sky
nightstalker could happen
slow marsh
we are oneish global away from 30 currently without mfd which is why we take it
tardy jolt
<@!202763766994042881> been mal for 15 years chief
Ok we the same then 😂 Mal since I started gaming 15 years ago
onyx raptor
we will have enough haste to get 30 stacks auto
it's not about haste it's about gcd :)))
outer cairn
it will be the diff between ds and obe. do you want winds ot hit harder or melee. in this case, mfd will mean more melee, ds may mean more bleed dmg with vendetta
oak sky
haste doesnt matter its all crit that decides your flag stacks @slow marsh
outer cairn
my quick opinion
oak sky
at least for the most part
leaden bloom
will the set bonuses make mastery more important?
slow marsh
haste gives us the energy to get thee one extra global
we already have enough cp
but yeah
grand ridge
crit will certainly be way less important than this tier
slow marsh
crit is nice
grand ridge
because winds will go away
slow marsh
na crit is still venth best stat
it was in 9.0
still will be
just wont be stacked over DRs
onyx raptor
proly gonnabe haste > crit > vers=mast
onyx raptor
proly gonnabe whatever gets decided once ptr is lie
true, but i do enjoy speculating
dawn ivy
when they decide 2p needs to increase general crit by 25%, it will be good. trust
gusty mirage
I blame cev
slow marsh
I'm all for playing around 9 second windows every 25 seconds
gusty mirage
he talked about exsanguinate earlier
slow marsh
yes
gusty mirage
and he brought this upon us
slow marsh
100%
Cev fault this morning
was exactly my first thoughts
now we have dollar store exsang
onyx raptor
exsang from wish basically
slow marsh
its not that bad
grand ridge
when mom says we have exsanguinate at home
onyx raptor
outlaw set seems kinda bad... rip that spec
sin and sub seem to be the winners for now
onyx raptor
sin will prolly be ST god and sub will be M+
slow marsh
outlaw is actually better than i thought
It's free damage
for doing stuff you already do
topaz axle
and stupid synergy with greenskin's probably
slow marsh
yeah
onyx raptor
It's free damage
true, but you gotta be carefull not to refresh BtE
slow marsh
na you would just bte on cd like you still do
slow marsh
not that we needed more
slow marsh
ye we'll see idk
white orchid
Sin one doesn’t even seem that good
gusty mirage
time to play sin in raid I guess
weird way to spell windwalker
slow marsh
i'm still on the dusk/obed train for sure
pretty sure stacking exsang with 4p will still be worse than alac tho
strange python
gonna be weird if sin isn't good in raid
cuz then there's like no good raid spec lol
white orchid
Baked exsanguinate into the tier set lol
gusty mirage
you mean like all of december and january and february?
white orchid
Yawn
strange python
even tho sub will be insane in m+ seemingly
oak sky
cuz then there's like no good raid spec lol
doomer + doom + the D
onyx raptor
gonna be weird if sin isn't good in raid
i reckon sin is gonna be like a nuke in raid
slow marsh
we will have good 1min prio dam
strange python
it looks good
slow marsh
just not sure how we stack up against other specs outside of that 1min is all
obtuse robin
did another spec get some op sets
gusty mirage
This may surprise you, but fire mage got a sick tier set
gusty mirage
lock also op
obtuse robin
druid
slow marsh
it's ok guys
dawn ivy
alot
slow marsh
we SCALE
dawn ivy
lock,mage,hunter
gusty mirage
dawn ivy
spriest sounds nuts
ruby oyster
Mage are hero class, they cant get bad sets
slow marsh
soon enough you can
hexed frost
So we just spamming rupture in vendetta windows ladies
sharp zodiac
Smoke bomb ability please pls 
gusty mirage
we all knew fire mage was going to get giga buffed
dawn ivy
yeah
oak sky
no you literally rupture once during vendetta its actually not that bad
dawn ivy
but it wont be good
gusty mirage
the true hero class of wow can't be even with other specs
gusty mirage
can you like stack vendetta and exsanguinate
we don't actually know yet
obtuse robin
what if nf leggo makes set pc busted possible savoir?
yea i asked that with a stright face
gusty mirage
if they were going to go with this 4pc, why not make the 2pc shrouded suffocation??
dawn ivy
it would honestly be much easier if blizz just made the sin 4pc double the proc rate of bleeds and poisons
oak sky
i dont understand what they ruined its literally just a passive on shiv
slow marsh
it should be like when shiv's buff ends you get the bleed crit
dawn ivy
whys that matter though
slow marsh
i mean it's passive damage so it's fine yeah
oak sky
im not gonna say its interesting
slow marsh
yeah exactly my point though
they could've come up with something else as a boring damage rider
like it's actually just worse than the laziness i was expecting lol
dawn ivy
theres still time for them to add more context to things
oak sky
its less boring than garrote does 30% more damage
dawn ivy
there are some sets that are obviously wrong numbers
oak sky
makes shiv more of a cd cd for this tier
strange python
would it make you wanna play dashing
slow marsh
no
oak sky
nope
dawn ivy
no
quiet root
Still have class tuning hopefully…. Copium
strange python
oh right thought it was both
oak sky
and crit reduces the value of more crit
slow marsh
It would make sense if like VW proced off crits
dawn ivy
whispyr is in the corner muttering something about mastery stacking
oak sky
seli says like 2% or something
balmy condor
how much dmg is 25% crit on bleeds right now anyway
2.5%
slow marsh
yeah
and exsang is terrible for us even with 200% haste so that hsould tell you how strong the 4p is
sharp zodiac
Blizzard knows rogues need to be top tier damage to be brought to raid. ion said it himself. Right guys? Right?
obtuse robin
but guys they had so much fun bringing sets back
slow marsh
yeah idk i still have hopium that we'll be ok. but days of 2 rogue are for sure over
fiery mauve
oak sky
yeah idk i still have hopium that we'll be ok. but days of 2 rogue are for sure ...
love seeing absolutes
👍
white orchid
Hella yawn with the assass tier set
slow marsh
love seeing absolutes
never remembered without absolutes
marble hemlock
no individual patch note or change or tier set or new rental power will decide the fate that is class balancing in the new patch
gotta add all the changes together, consider how each class is affected by domshards going away, new trinkets from raid etc etc
slow marsh
what's weird is that other specs are saying that our set bonus seems cool
strange python
never heard of him
oak sky
tuning during PTR of our borrowed power, tuning of baseline, new stuff, tuning after the patch is live of the before mentioned
slow marsh
just like the other people saying its cool
marble hemlock
idk
muted ivy
it sounds cool if you don't know how the spec actually plays
marble hemlock
on average every 4th to 5th BP gives you a few extra shadowstrikes
whats that in terms of overall dps? maybe 5%?
muted ivy
depends if it generates CP or not
strange python
it's gonna be every 4th in aoe which is 8 globals
marble hemlock
it wont
oak sky
sub plays deeper
slow marsh
ik no new soulbind tuning
marble hemlock
balancing becomes 10times harder if all these procs for different classes would actively interact with talents, legendaries or resource generation
so i seriously doubt that the sub bonus works with WM or akaaris or generates resources
marble hemlock
i wouldnt awnna get random PS procs as outlaw either
would just feel weird as fuck
slow marsh
idk would be weird if it didn't interact
marble hemlock
imagine random PS procs from MG that give CP
slow marsh
within the spec
muted ivy
someone looked at Sylv daggy proc rate and without CP it wasn't that much dam
#subtlety message
but could be either way still obv
slow marsh
weird to look at wowhead comments on our set and see people thinking we're busted
oak sky
imagine random PS procs from MG that give CP
its just free damage+ shadow techniques yeah
marble hemlock
idk, its gonna be fucking weird to play
slow marsh
maybe we were just too strong this tier with our dom shard bonuses that we are getting nerfed
marble hemlock
having to watch every GCD if you got sblades proc so you know if you spellqueue an evis next or another ss
doesnt sound fun at all
slow marsh
yeah i agree
marble hemlock
already gotta keep an eye out on sht
none of the setbonuses seem fun to play around
slow marsh
it looks cool at ffirst but when you think about playing it kinda feels bad
Sin looks fine to play around
marble hemlock
so we'll most likely just
oak sky
the sin one just doesnt change much
slow marsh
Refresh garrote rup before vend
slow marsh
is the only change we have
strange python
the outlaw one sounds awful to play around if it gives CP
slow marsh
which probs you should already doo
marble hemlock
i mean you lowkey already do that
slow marsh
currently
marble hemlock
so you dont have to waste GCDs on rupture during vend
slow marsh
yeah
marble hemlock
its just more passive damage, and more energy, which you cant spend because youre already capping energy during vendetta
slow marsh
i'm interested to see sims for dusk+obed+exsang mega burst build
slow marsh
i dont think so either
marble hemlock
its a 5gcd setup
slow marsh
but it could interact weirdly and make it work
marble hemlock
going garrote>vanish+rupture>shiv>vendetta>exsang
slow marsh
the setup is the same as current opener
dawn ivy
but obed/dusk is giga
oak sky
i'm predicting nothing changes, we just go doomblade obe, and our rotation is exactly the same with no special refreshes or anything
slow marsh
na we for sure go dusk right
marble hemlock
those 2 legendaries combined
are like
half as good as the best firemage legendary
slow marsh
but it's either dusk or doom
oak sky
i mean
dawn ivy
it would be fun thats all im thinking
oak sky
i dont think anything is that cut and dry
marble hemlock
i dont mind dusk being bis
slow marsh
there's no shot dusk isn't the play right?
sudden canyon
tier set looks kinda lackluster. pls tell me im wrong.
slow marsh
naaaaaaaaaaaa
dawn ivy
it has to make up alot of ground
marble hemlock
dusk isnt good at all atm
dawn ivy
yaaaaaaaaaa
marble hemlock
and people overestimate
dawn ivy
but DOUBLE leggo makes 1 minute flag/vendetta a thing
oak sky
synergy doesnt necessarily magically make something good
marble hemlock
the damage gain from that 4pc
oak sky
pretty sure duskwalkers is less in st than zoldyck? correct me if i'm wrong
slow marsh
i'm not overestimating 4p cuz we already have an idea of how small it is based on simming exsang
oak sky
which is dogshit
dawn ivy
well currently dusk doesnt work with anything well
marble hemlock
bleeds+dp account for 15-20% of your damage during vendetta. so your 30% damage amp will effectively become a ~36% damage amp. thats still not great. at all.
very simplified, ofc
muted ivy
but if they buff dusk tho 
dawn ivy
we dont want buffed dusk
marble hemlock
only reason dusk will gain value is cause youll be able to pair it with obe
slow marsh
yeah
oak sky
ok but now we're in hypotheticals which means anything can be good
white orchid
Blizz so lazy they just gave us an unused talent as a set bonus 😆😆
bleak sky
maybe they'll add sylv daggers 2.0
bonus: your bleeds bleed twice as hard
marble hemlock
cause the main benefit of having hasted bleeds is to gain more energy, something that venthyr does not need
slow marsh
with obed sure it is
marble hemlock
how? you dont get more GCDs to cast.
itll be the same amount of CP spent during flag
oh and your garrote will drop, unless you refresh it mid-flag
marble hemlock
generating extra energy isnt a big deal, because were not actually doing impactful things with those CPs
slow marsh
Minalba is right in that we didn't really see sub being as good as it is until they made sylv daggers
marble hemlock
we want the extra regen outside of vendetta, not during it
slow marsh
yeah wtf how they get a way better tier set than us
marble hemlock
you know what would make that 4pc great? if it lowered GCD during vendetta
theres a reason they gave AR a lowered GCD at some point, becuase the increased regen amounted to a negligible dps gain when you were capping energy during it 😛
muted ivy
if the made bleed crits generate extra energy that could be cool with the 2pc
marble hemlock
idk, id like the spec to move away from crit-based benefits, not get more of them
dawn ivy
i might need more haste, because im certainly still drained on energy during vendetta
im not gcd capped
marble hemlock
are you pooling before vend?
muted ivy
ya crit feels a little too needed rn
oak sky
vendetta gives you energy regen for 3s why would you pool before
slow marsh
well ofc crit feels too needed when frost set exists lol