assassination

[spice spire]

Any daggers good.
Sim them.
Sylvanas dagger decent, mots and PF both good

[viscid schooner]

Okay then ill try pf

[opal berry]

Im joining melee from ranged dps was warlock, deciding to go to my first ever class, rogue, i however am in the issue of trying to choose between sin and sub im only 215 ilvl and am trying to decide whats better does anyone know from testing whose benefiting from the aoe cap removal? Or is it a we wont know until its here type thing?

[manic matrix]

The best daggers in dungeons are PF for sure

[hollow river]

PF also drops one of our best rings and our best trinket. Arachnid cipher ring. And Phial of Putrefaction trinket.

[viscid schooner]

https://raider.io/characters/eu/kazzak/Frydshrimp

[hollow river]

That depends on your build.

[manic matrix]

but overall it's sylvanas daggers by far

[viscid schooner]

I have the phial for a while now

First run i did pf i got those bad boys

[hollow river]

What a lucky man

[manic matrix]

I mean I'm saying this considering he's playing the best build because in M+ crit is the best stat and same in raid since you play frost

obviously

[viscid schooner]

Nah did 20 times mots and no daggers only anima

[hollow river]

It happens my friend

Some people run PF 100 times and get no Phial

[manic matrix]

ye the ring + trinket from PF are BIS too so it's better to farm PF

[hollow river]

Yeah but you still don’t know everyone’s stat composition or everyone’s gear etc.

[viscid schooner]

Im also waiting for 9.1.5 to refund my current grim veiled cape to make it a obedience

[hollow river]

We sim, we don’t run off “bis” except for things like Phial maybe

[viscid schooner]

I quite like the nw ring also

[timid cloud]

I’m a simple man, I see crit haste, I equip it.

[viscid schooner]

So best stats are crit and haste?

[cerulean nest]

there was a 242 sin rogue somehow beating me at 251 last night in a heroic pug, was angry and horrified....realized i didnt have my third frost gem equipped 🙂

[timid cloud]

[manic matrix]

yes

in raid at least

in m+ it's literally full crit

[viscid schooner]

Kanye you have a link for your equip?

Okayokay

Im at 36% crit now

But only 12% haste

[manic matrix]

the reason you don't need as much haste in M+ is cuz it doesn't boost your dps as much as other stats in aoe + you can get the energy regene haste supposedly give you by using rupture on multiple targets

[viscid schooner]

Okay okay so in aoe just spam rupture on different targets? Havent done that one yet

[manic matrix]

yes while making sure crimson tempest is up

[viscid schooner]

Im still learning

[manic matrix]

you never rupture unless it's the 3 ones from subterfuge

not rupture mb

garrot*

[timid cloud]

You mean Garrote?

[manic matrix]

ye

[hollow river]

In m+ it’s crit/mastery but sim

[timid cloud]

As per usual...

My profile had me go full crit + haste in M+

Wild.

[manic matrix]

Sim is considering you don't play any mechanics and you don't even move while dpsing but k

[hollow river]

Yeah just making sure the info is correct upon the “guide lines”

But d slice sims been a bit weird this tier too

[timid cloud]

It has downtimes in d slice.

It works fine.

[manic matrix]

I'm giving him advice as one of the best pve rogues in the world idk why you keep bringing up sims ^^

[hollow river]

Sim is how you pick gear upgrades my friend

[timid cloud]

No complaints for a few tiers actually. ty d slice

[hollow river]

This isn’t correct either really

You spread/refresh garrotes on CD after subterfuge and spread/refresh ruptures on every target.

All while keeping up SnD and CT ofc

[loud jungle]

Guys I really want to try sin in m+ but i'm scurred

[manic matrix]

nope it's not worth using garrote when not buffed by subterfuge

you want to rupture every target without wasting GCD time on garrote

[hollow river]

If that’s true then I commend you friend

[manic matrix]

once they're all rupture'd you do envenoms

[hollow river]

But we try to make sure info here is the same as the guides and FAQ

[manic matrix]

[hollow river]

Garrote’d and ruptured

[manic matrix]

I'd like to see you out dps me as assa honestly^^

[hollow river]

Sure me too but that’s not why I’m in this discord.

[manic matrix]

then how do you not know that you can't keep up your rupture on as many targets as you could by not using garrote

[viscid schooner]

With ilvl 227 what keys can i go?

[hollow river]

Please go read the FAQ

[timid cloud]

Uhhh 10 I think.

[manic matrix]

rupture does much more damage than garrote btw

in case u didn't know

[hollow river]

That’s fine, it doesn’t matter.

Garrote does damage too.

[manic matrix]

Imagine telling me to read an FAQ

[inland hull]

If you keep up both, you get more energy, which should allow more CP builders, which means more finishers, which should be more damage yeah?

[manic matrix]

ok whatever do as you wish guys

[hollow river]

Go read Question #6 in #assassination-faq please my friend.

[manic matrix]

I'm only here to give advice from a position that obviously allows me

[hollow river]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[manic matrix]

now feel free to read #assassination-faq

[hollow river]

“For pure AoE damage you would want to continue to cast bleeds such as rupture and garrote.”

Straight from the FAQ my friend.

[manic matrix]

I'm not your friend and I don't know who wrote your FAQ unbuffed garrotes on packs of more than 3 is useless

[hollow river]

I don’t mean to offend, maybe dropping garrote was the play in past expansions. I don’t know. All I know is the proper priorities and rotations for Shadowlands.

[manic matrix]

You obviously don't know much since the only thing you do is reading an FAQ without giving any thoughts behind it

[spice spire]

What else would you be doing?

[manic matrix]

everything I do in my gameplay can be explained with tactical reasons

this is obviously a missplay to lose ruptures for a garrote that's not buffed

[gusty mirage]

rogues (minus outlaw) have an 8 target cap, so minus very few pools in a couple dungeons there isn't going to be that big of a jump in dps imo

[manic matrix]

you're also losing envenoms as well

[spice spire]

Garrote is a builder.. you don’t lose either one.

[inland hull]

How could you lose ruptures? On packs more than 3, you should be swimming in energy regen and garrote is a builder

[spice spire]

You just garrote what you can while it’s up

I’m confused on the logic here

[manic matrix]

it gives u one combo point for a GCD

[deft vault]

Idk dude thinks he's hot shit

[manic matrix]

while you could get more damage for pressing fan of knives that applies poisons and give you full combo points for 1 gcd

[deft vault]

It's rng as far as combo point generation for fan

[manic matrix]

it's not really RNG since you play full crit + a conduit that gives even more crit chance and FoK

you should crit 80% of the time

easily

[deft vault]

Lol

[spice spire]

Fok doesn’t do that much damage.. and again, if you’re able to apply several ruptures after garrotes drop off, this pack is living a while. And the energy regen+passive damage is worth

[manic matrix]

if not 90

[deft vault]

The conduit is 5% crit

You don't have 75% crit

[manic matrix]

? it has a chance to crit on each target

you have 8 targets

[drifting cloud]

[hollow river]

If you’re so fervent in this method, then post it in #tc-research with some evidence. Logs, etc. Who knows, maybe the guides will change.

But in here we stick to advising newer players and newer rogues via the guides that all the TC’s have worked very hard to write and theory craft themselves.

[odd heath]

Bro, he is one of the BEST PVE ROGUES out there, you gotta trust him on that one yo

[hollow river]

That’s the entire point of this discord server.

[uneven wraith]

am i the only one who has literally 0 idea who this guy is?

[deft vault]

He's one of the best pve rogue how do you not know him???

[manic matrix]

check mythic SOD rankings ^^

[uneven wraith]

how does mythic SOD relate to optimal keystone bleeds?

like thats kinda apples and oranges

[manic matrix]

I'm top 15 M+ assa also

without having a team to push

I also checked the dps of the first world on assa and he is lower than me on overalls so..

[inland hull]

And he's got a girlfriend who's super hot. But she goes to a different school, so you wouldn't know her.

[loud jungle]

@manic matrix what are you pushing now with pugs?

also, do you get shit for being assa?

[manic matrix]

ye with pugs

[loud jungle]

I really don't love sub when i pug

but i play it so i don't get shit

[hollow river]

That’s great! But it doesn’t show us any evidence that these claims are indeed more optimal, or just completely unfounded feel craft.

[loud jungle]

but fubbing cooldowns as sub because someone fucks a pull just feels so so bad

[fleet anchor]

I would say the main flaw in the evaluation above is not accounting for potential energy issues.

[loud jungle]

makes me want to try sub

er assass

[manic matrix]

@hollow river ye I get your argument that's a much more interesting take than "just read the FAQ" now

[fleet anchor]

It’s pretty hard for FoK to beat Garrote when adjusted for Energy

[gusty mirage]

do it, come to the darkside

[manic matrix]

don't worry

[loud jungle]

maybe next week if there's a moderate gain to sin

[uneven wraith]

i think the main flaw in the evaluation above is that it came across like a dick swinging contest

instead of constructive math based information

[loud jungle]

i'd rather play a more fun spec and do slightly less overall

[manic matrix]

@fleet anchor there is no way u get energy issues spamming ruptures

[hollow river]

When someone says something perceived as incorrect, then pointing them to a guide is usually the play.

[manic matrix]

you should have rupture up on 5 targets easily 100% of the time

[gusty mirage]

you should have more than 5 ruptures up

[manic matrix]

@gusty mirage yes definitely

[kind talon]

You should just spam ruptures

Ye

And garrote

[spice spire]

Keeping bleeds good

[fleet anchor]

Sure but could you not make the same argument you made for Garrote vs FoK compared to CT vs Rupture?

[loud jungle]

mikasa, what's your average overall in like 22-24s?

not counting outliers

like PF

[spice spire]

gameplay

[manic matrix]

@loud jungle depends of the groups but without monks and war I can do between 11k easily

with monk+war should be 12K + all the time

[fleet anchor]

Like I’m sure there is potentially a point where you cut Garrote with uncapped AoE but I’d be very surprised if it was 3T like you suggest above

[manic matrix]

I haven't played much necrolord this season

can't tell if it's still better for m+

it was in the first season tho

[kind talon]

Well

You have obedience now

Which is just so good

[manic matrix]

ye obedience is Pog in m+

I play it since I'm venthyr for raiding

[kind talon]

So it’s hard to say if necro is better

[odd heath]

So like 12k with monk and war buffs is your best dps on keys?

[kind talon]

It’s probably higher overall but less ST / prio

[manic matrix]

@odd heath dpeneds of the key

I'm considering keys without buffs like mist/pf etc

[odd heath]

I don't really do keys anymore, but I consistently had 12k+ unbuffed

[manic matrix]

also affixes plays a lot sometimes

[odd heath]

When playing

On mists for example

[manic matrix]

on mist you can easily do 13k without war/monk

[odd heath]

Ye

[manic matrix]

the mushrooms improve you dps a lot

• first boss as well

and the packs a pretty ideal for assa

on mist

[kind talon]

Yeah

The packs are most important

[odd heath]

Had a 13k ish on a 20 pug there

[kind talon]

The only bad pack in the dungeon is

[odd heath]

No buffs

[kind talon]

The 2 dudes before boss

Everything else is just goated

[manic matrix]

mmmh I disagree I think assa is pretty good on 2 targets

[kind talon]

Full 4target +

[dire spoke]

Are you minmaxing Trash logs

[kind talon]

Assa is really good on 2t I never said it wasn’t

Ideal pack size is like 4+ tho

[manic matrix]

I mean 8 is perfect

obviously

more than 8 you lose some dps cuz u're capped

talking about that I can't wait to see how it does in 9.1.5

cuz being able to poison + crimson tempest everything sounds pretty good

[kind talon]

U already do that in 95% of pulls

[fleet anchor]

Either way, results-based conjecture really shouldn’t be presented as fact. If you want to say guides are wrong or others are wrong, I’d advise doing the legwork to prove it out.

[manic matrix]

nah cuz in high keys you need to play big packs

not normal ones

and usually on those big packs you'll fall behind

compared to other classes

[fleet anchor]

Saying “my logs are high” doesn’t prove what you are suggesting is optimal. There’s lots of ways to play non optimally and still rank high. 😛

[manic matrix]

@fleet anchor I've been explaining why to you

[kind talon]

Can u explain

[fleet anchor]

I don’t really need explaining 🙂

[kind talon]

Which packs you play in “high keys”

[fleet anchor]

I’m saying you should prove it

[kind talon]

That are so big

They are 10+ targets

[fleet anchor]

Before saying it’s 100% correct

[kind talon]

Other than hoa

[fleet anchor]

Rather than anecdotes and conjecture

[kind talon]

And dos

[hollow river]

[manic matrix]

@kind talon usually in hoa/dos/SD

sometimes in NW too

[kind talon]

U don’t fall behind cause of pack size / uncap u fall behind because u have no burst as a class

[fleet anchor]

It could be you are right, it could be it’s borderline, could be you are wrong. Without verification, being so firm about it seems premature.

[kind talon]

It’s just the class identity

Ww is 6 target capped but bursts highest in keys rn

Only thing better is a good boomie but they are few and far between in pugs

Haven’t played with one yet myself

[manic matrix]

I mean obedience gives u some kind of burst and I feel like you could easily output like 10-15k dps more if your crimson tempest wasn't capped on one big pack

[kind talon]

The only big pack u play in NW is the one after golem before 2nd boss and the orb pull upstairs no?

[manic matrix]

nah personally we pull a lot of trash on the first boss

[spice spire]

Also on non bolstering weeks, first boss with golem usually

[manic matrix]

with the tanks I've done a few keys with

[kind talon]

Yeah the pack up there with boss?

[spice spire]

Usually more

[kind talon]

That’s like a 6 or 7 mob pack iirc

But anyways

[manic matrix]

there's boss adds + patrols

[kind talon]

They will get bursted down by whatever cds u have up

So you won’t do dmg anyways

Monk will just kill it all

Or fire mage

[manic matrix]

ye obviously it's better to do single target on the boss in those situations

but still it's good for overall to pop one free crimson tempest on everything

[kind talon]

I’m just saying ppl are saying that uncap is so crazy and will make sin and sub so strong

But I don’t think it will change the game that much

Monk uncap is much more impactful

[manic matrix]

I think on sub it's going to be insane

[kind talon]

Sub will still be the funnel spec

[manic matrix]

on assa it's a decent up not that crazy

[balmy condor]

Why

[manic matrix]

ye but there are packs where you don't need to funnel so much

[balmy condor]

What does sub get going from 8 mobs to say 10

That makes it insane

[kind talon]

Uh oh

Daddy whispyr is here

🙇‍♂️

[manic matrix]

what do u mean from 8 to 10?

[balmy condor]

I heard we clowning on a tuesday

[kind talon]

[toxic quail]

You heard right. Haha

[balmy condor]

You said that uncap will be crazy on sub

Sub is capped at 8 right now

So let’s say you pull 10 instead

How is that crazy

[kind talon]

Engaging the community! Big up 😔 ✊

[manic matrix]

obviously you won't be pulling only 10 if cap is off

you want to play around the fact that's you're not capped anymore

[kind talon]

Yeah you will

[balmy condor]

Oh yea of course

My bad

[subtle tundra]

you still will in 99% of cases

[balmy condor]

You’d pull 25 at least

Stupid me

[hollow river]

Dead tank

[subtle tundra]

the reason people dont pull bigger is cause they cant

[kind talon]

Tank die = bad

[manic matrix]

in my opinion the routes will change to play packs that are easily stackable

[kind talon]

They already are

[subtle tundra]

thats already the play

[manic matrix]

without too many mechanics to play

[subtle tundra]

thats whats happening bro

[kind talon]

They already do

[balmy condor]

Triple pull mini bosses with the bridge pack in top

[long wyvern]

that's already happening

[balmy condor]

Clearly the move

We’re uncapped

[long wyvern]

not triple pulling the mini boss

[dire spoke]

Crab pull is back

[kind talon]

@balmy condor I CAN FONALLY HIT ALL 6 OF THE SPIRITS IN TOP!!!

Oh wait

Pirate

[balmy condor]

People are already pulling to the limit of tanks and cc

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

If you pull any bigger the tanks die, or you miss kicks, or you actually just waste time trying to get to a pack in Africa to pull in and can’t group them up

[subtle tundra]

the dungeons where it will matter are 2 pulls in nw, dos, hoa and gauntlet in sd

[manic matrix]

mmmh I guess ye

we'll see I haven't really thought about it tbh

[balmy condor]

Then don’t say dumb shit

[kind talon]

You guys are not mentioning the slime pull in plaguefall????

[subtle tundra]

oh sorry fuck fuck fuck

[spice spire]

True actually

[manic matrix]

? someone asked me my opinion about target cap

[spice spire]

The hardest pull to pull off

[subtle tundra]

it will die in 2 seconds faster now

[manic matrix]

I never assumed I was right about this chill lol

[hollow river]

I had a pug tank in a 15 weekly pull the whole pack and bolster it last night lmfao

[kind talon]

All good bro it was a good discussion

👍

Keep blasting those keys

[hollow river]

The garrote thing though

[subtle tundra]

garrote bis

[manic matrix]

the garrote thing I did ye

^^

[balmy condor]

:/

Should I ask

[manic matrix]

because I actually thought a lot about the garrote thing

[hollow river]

It’s np

[fleet anchor]

But anyway, @manic matrix before being quite so confident about specific advice I do feel like trying to prove out your suggestions would make a lot more sense. e.g. your point above about not using Garrote above 3T at all seems pretty much just strictly bad advice for sustained 4T?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hLtzCZePE1HLPPGuNeYNqE
There certainly may be a target threshold or a fight duration where this is true, but you seem to be giving very specific advice here without much evidence to support it. In DS the change is fully neutral.
Obviously if enemies won't live long enough to get value out of Garrote, it shouldn't be applied.
Even at 6T, avoiding Garrote seems bad...
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/w4bJRc4CDdvhb81L8YttRu

[gusty mirage]

ptsd of bolstering fortified toldogor weeks

ty

[balmy condor]

I’m scared to ask what the garrote thing is

[dire spoke]

hahaha

[hollow river]

Dropping non empowered garrotes in aoe

[balmy condor]

[hollow river]

We’re past it though I think

[balmy condor]

I’m guess source: “trust me bro”

[kind talon]

We are 👍

[balmy condor]

?

[kind talon]

Yes

[balmy condor]

Excellent

[subtle tundra]

wait so i have to garrote on cd in m+

[kind talon]

Source: top 15 assa rogue

[odd heath]

Actually, trust me bro, I'm one of the best pve rogues out there

[spice spire]

@balmy condor

[subtle tundra]

bro im top#2 assa rogue world and i dont do that

[dire spoke]

[fleet anchor]

Now for big pulls or average pulls lengths, probably the difference is so small nobody would notice in any practical sense.

But any sustained 4T where the enemies will survive full DoTs, I definitely wouldn't cut Garrote at 4T

[subtle tundra]

maybe i should try to play better 😦

[spice spire]

I have many questions about a recent PF video sir

[subtle tundra]

i play so bad

bro

literally

[spice spire]

If you played better you’d be #1 I guess

Unlucky

[subtle tundra]

literally im not even good

at some point i stopped playing for being good and played only for score

[gusty mirage]

this statement alone shows me that you're a good player

[subtle tundra]

[dire spoke]

I forgot this isnt ot

[viscid schooner]

@subtle tundra Varas whats your raidbots/armory?

[subtle tundra]

i think the reason i became like this is cause pugging made me realise dps isnt the reason we dont time keys, its random wipes

[strange python]

Too based

[subtle tundra]

Váras-draenor

[strange python]

Having 200 haste instead of 199 haste is why you didn’t time idiot

[subtle tundra]

with weird A fixed it

[spice spire]

Imagine not having 203 haste :/ cringe king

[subtle tundra]

like, just earlier i was doing a 26 nw

i literally cloaked before getting an orb from the ground

and didnt get the buff

and lost like 30k dps there

but the reason we didnt time was cause tank died from comet storm on last boss

[timid cloud]

One swirly boy, or a mythic keystone player?

Who wins?

[hollow river]

Swirly boy every time.

[subtle tundra]

the boomy who died when he was sent down kek

[timid cloud]

Tank has to go down at that point, he'd do more damage.

[subtle tundra]

the thing is, he didnt even try to kill himself to come up faster

he tried to do it and died

[spice spire]

[errant plover]

!offhand

!oh

[prisma monolith]

Mutilate requires a dagger in both hands, this makes using a non dagger weapons undesirable.

[gusty mirage]

the spicy take here is sin has always been OT

[uneven hamlet]

I'll prob get the mythic dagger before I get the heroic one lmao

[fresh heron]

dumb Question: I use Zoldyck, in M+ and my sims says its the best, but I keep seeing about how Obedience is amazing, but it never outsims. Thoughts?

[sturdy merlin]

Zoldyck may be better for overall damage but Obedience gives you more burst when you need it 🙂

[subtle tundra]

Obedience: more controlled dmg, more burst, more st
Zoldyck: more overall

[fresh heron]

so is it a better value?

[subtle tundra]

yes

ill play zoldyck though in the next fortified week

bcs its raging

[fresh heron]

yeah, makes sense.

Thanks Varas. Appreciate it.

[subtle tundra]

yea

i played a 23 dos this week with zoldyck to see how it is and it was the first time i did 13k overall in that dungeon

but it felt so bad since my dmg on masks was low, st was lower, prio dmg was lower etc

[thick sail]

Is there any value to Dashing Scoundrel in mythic+ if I don't have any raid gear?

[subtle tundra]

its playable but not the best

[thick sail]

Zoldyck is considered best for m+?

[subtle tundra]

.

[thick sail]

Good to know

[subtle tundra]

(also, ill HAVE to get a deathspike in 9.1.5 i want to try it)

pad king?

[sturdy merlin]

Is it getting fixed ?

[subtle tundra]

idk i just want to try it

[golden basalt]

pad possibility maybe? but it really is a 0.0% ST increase

[subtle tundra]

yes but i want that overall bro

[golden basalt]

[inland hull]

I'm excited to go back to necro for m+ just for sbs. It's a satisfying button

[subtle tundra]

gang

[kind talon]

Sbs is so lit in raid

I miss necro sin in raid

[inland hull]

I play with sound on, and that thok from sbs...

[hollow river]

I miss necro sin all around

[spice spire]

I don’t miss necro sin

Because I am Necro sin

I do miss doing raid damage tho

[inland hull]

Flag took getting used to, but now I play obedience in all content because, well... moar flag plz

[sturdy merlin]

The feeling when the big flag hits is just the best

[opal berry]

So is there a cap to the amount of stacks flag gets you? Like i normally get in between 25-30 just wondering if its actually capped or i must press buttons faster?

[spice spire]

30 max

[hollow river]

Capped at 30

[opal berry]

Ok, that makes sense im over here like swaering i got another envenom in lol

[spice spire]

Also 0.8s GCD you can only press so fast 😛

[sturdy merlin]

Getting 30 as sin is nearly impossible tho it’s kinda frustrating

[inland hull]

Mfd helps, but I hate it.

There. I said it!

OK I'll try harder...

[hollow river]

I kinda like mfd

Nice change of pace

Plenty of resets on Sylvanas progression

[inland hull]

I need to get a weakaura to better track when it's available

The results are, frankly, amazing. So it really seems like the play.

I replaced my keybind for ambush with mfd to get my mind right on it, but I'll forget to reapply outside of the opener.

[golden basalt]

opener? you mean during your first flag window?

[inland hull]

Yeah

Basically, I've gotten it down for first application during initial vanish / MA window, but don't think about it after that because I'm used to not having it

So I'm throwing away a ton of damage

[hollow river]

Yeah you should use it on CD or hold like ~12sec? Iirc for flag

But resets on adds are big

[inland hull]

I just made the switch after my last log review here (ty @spice spire !) so this will be the first full week I'm using it in our HC

[opal berry]

I dont think ive ever used that talent

I imagine it feels like sw:death sniping on spriests i might try it today lol

[hollow river]

It feels similar to SBS on adds

Except you only have 1 charge at a time and it gives 5 cp guaranteed

[strange python]

Poison bomb should become passive

[quasi grotto]

does anyone have any advice for hard frame drops mid fight. e.g KT spikes and adds, was getting seriously freeze ups yesterday. i doubt its my PC its not been an issue until i deleted some weak auras and added new ones

[golden basalt]

poison bomb shouldnt exist imo, incredibly boring spell

[inland hull]

Been having issues in SOD every week. Seems like maybe the instance just lags out from time to time.

[vestal wren]

i prefere pb to be boring

pb in legion was "exciting" and it ended up being a dps roulette

[timid cloud]

True, I hated 30% of my DPS being based on if I got a PB proc.

[quasi grotto]

i feel the same, like its got a bit worse each week or so. but fight was almost inplayable at that point. would simply updating my WAs help? something i have never done !

[inland hull]

If you figure it out, let me know!

[pastel shale]

Are there any Sin M+ streamers to watch? How is Sin in M+ compared to Sub or OL?

[spice spire]

Sin distinctly worse than Sub, and slightly worse than OL,

[hollow river]

If you go to #wow-general and scroll up through the past couple days we’ve been discussing lag and FPS a lot over the past couple days. Good info in there just gotta scroll up.

[spice spire]

As for streamers, unsure, but there are several YouTube key sin runners

[hollow river]

Zerocoolx is the only one I know of.

[spice spire]

The one I caught recently on my recommended was @subtle tundra

[echo geyser]

i know a good one but he doesnt play anymore

[hollow river]

Zerocoolx is the #1 rio sin rogue iirc

[spice spire]

Cev

[echo geyser]

seli

[hollow river]

Seliathin

[spice spire]

Him too

[echo geyser]

cev is a raider no?

not keyer

[spice spire]

He’s both

[subtle tundra]

cev is not a player anymore 😦

[spice spire]

Definitely primary raider

[echo geyser]

i didnt know

[spice spire]

Seli unethical Druid main now :/

[pastel shale]

I'm getting so bored of SS -> BP

[echo geyser]

PoE main now

[spice spire]

(He does BC Druid)

[spice spire]

Yeah I feel that. Sin keys hella fun.

[pure moth]

Can we get a stream link? :)

[spice spire]

Varas had less commentary and was more just playing but has some good tricks to learn from at least

[subtle tundra]

i can upload more if i play with team

[spice spire]

You can post links here in response to people afaik

Pretty sure that’s kosher

[subtle tundra]

but i just started playing 22-23-24 with guildies

[echo geyser]

[spice spire]

Yeah it was good shit

[subtle tundra]

and they are learning

[spice spire]

You’re YouTube name is pretty wtf tho king

[subtle tundra]

i mean we did 24s on this bolstering week while learning

[echo geyser]

i wanna see some sin PoV incase its good 9.1.5

[spice spire]

Just came up on my recommended and was like damn

That guy trolls sin channel, what a champ

But I’d recommend

[subtle tundra]

op mr BAMFAM i will try my best to not forget to record keys next fort week

[echo geyser]

stream

[spice spire]

The play is good, it’s relevant content (not doing 15s, 16s) and you can see what is going on due to clear UI

[inland hull]

I use Preach's UI and WA pack for all classes/specs like some kind of caveman

[spice spire]

I’m actually curious as to who all in discord streams/makes sin content (keys or raid) as it’s a pretty common question.

[echo geyser]

i just wanna see streams

i only know zero

but i want others

@subtle tundra open?

[spice spire]

Oxi does raid

Filthy sub key runner tho

[echo geyser]

raid

[spice spire]

You can watch him wipe to Sylvanas ad nauseam

[echo geyser]

theres actually almost no other sin runners

[spice spire]

For keys? Woof. Ryfie used to be the go to, but he’s doing sub things now

[bleak sun]

Ask ryfie for some Keys

[spice spire]

1400 sin score, we’ve lost him to sub

Tbf he’s always run both

[bleak sun]

Im 2k5 rn & i feel that i cant get higher than 2k7/8

The change is now ?

[spice spire]

Removal of cap in 9.1.5

[echo geyser]

3rd november for EU

[spice spire]

Varas currently almost 2800 doing sin only

[oak sky]

ok

vault

[echo geyser]

gl

[oak sky]

catalogued research

[echo geyser]

[oak sky]

im pre calling it

[bleak sun]

Maybe CT will be a good finisher aoe one Day :pepeclown-1:

[oak sky]

it is a good aoe finisher tbh

[vestal wren]

don't hate on CT, its doing its best

[echo geyser]

[oak sky]

[shy dust]

Isn’t CT actually very nuts for aoe

[bleak sun]

Compared to BP sub baseline

[spice spire]

CT is my top damage most dungeons

[shy dust]

Like as a raw talent

It’s very good

[oak sky]

ct is like top 2 every dungeon

only garrote like ever does more

[spice spire]

Yes man

But I’m stuck doing ST for fucking tyran weeks so I only get it every other week

[oak sky]

yeah the only bad part is that it isnt baseline

[spice spire]

The ele shaman swapping to boom tho

Actually get to do damage to packs

[oak sky]

@echo geyser

[shy dust]

Because having to talent into strong aoe is a bad thing?

[oak sky]

having to talent into any aoe seems like a bad thing

like it isnt awful

but

[shy dust]

Seems like a fine choice

Especially when the talent is exceptionally strong when it’s needed relative to the spec

[oak sky]

fusion amp i guess?

i have ocular gland

[spice spire]

Last row in sin is pretty bad in general - it’s just aoe vs ST. And that feels rough, but iirc sub has it way worse

[oak sky]

tho

[echo geyser]

@balmy condor no stats are gonna change with target caps in keys, mastery still remains p much same value right?

[spice spire]

Fusion amp good, but if you ever go sub the ring might be good

[balmy condor]

I mean maybe a little more towards mastery

but not much

[echo geyser]

its yet another case of wow players overthink small changes type beat right

[shy dust]

Tbf they’re all aoe talents in the sense

1 is just dead

The other does give value in st

[spice spire]

PB uncapped true actually

[oak sky]

pb is good in st because it doesnt cost anything

free dam

[spice spire]

In all seriousness, yeah ur not wrong

[shy dust]

PB can high roll

Just proc it multiple times in a row

[spice spire]

True

[bleak sun]

Ye Just increase radius of 2/3 yard & its giga

For Aoe

[echo geyser]

how was Pb working in legion i heard it was doing yuge damage

[shy dust]

Much more damage

Much more rare

[spice spire]

Winds of winter level swings tho

[echo geyser]

crazy

[oak sky]

i hate wind

s

tier set won't have rng

[spice spire]

I don’t mind winds

Don’t like the fact that crits can make or break you though

[echo geyser]

i think u just need Kindred affinity

[spice spire]

True

[oak sky]

i mean

[spice spire]

Externals

[oak sky]

winds is like all rng

[spice spire]

[oak sky]

not fun when

it doesnt go as planned

[polar cape]

PB legion was when I learned about my bipolar syndrome

[echo geyser]

[inland hull]

And right now is when I learned about dyslexia. (unless you're being serious in which case, I obviously apologize and, oh my, look at the time, I'm going into a tunnel now, bye)

[limber lion]

I'm confused.

[echo geyser]

[spice spire]

About what, king?

[dawn ivy]

i think it was a clever way of saying the RNG was volatile and it flew over someones head

[carmine dawn]

how do i parse on sylv i dont get it. is it mostly just swapping to arrows on p1?

got a 20 twice now from just sticking on sylv so thats not it

[gusty mirage]

You do more damage

[spice spire]

Link sim if you don’t mind

[carmine dawn]

[spice spire]

Not sim

Log

I’m lit

[carmine dawn]

ye

[spice spire]

Holy

[carmine dawn]

ecksdee

[gusty mirage]

You good bruh?

[spice spire]

Nah

3 hour sleep gang. Dead inside

[gusty mirage]

No sleep gang

[carmine dawn]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/dalaran/vojax#boss=2435

[gusty mirage]

Been dead inside, what up

[carmine dawn]

still new to sylv but scoring a 20 is much worse than i thought

[oak sky]

me yesterday

[spice spire]

I’m on it rn

[oak sky]

and I still got CE

[gusty mirage]

Ye opened that and this is what it looks like on mobile. Make it quake is your best bet

[verbal mantle]

[carmine dawn]

yeah

theres 2 logs

pick one

[gusty mirage]

Not touching that shit on wcl mobile

[carmine dawn]

both are similar

but yeah, thanks tho

[gusty mirage]

I’ll check it when I get home

[carmine dawn]

no worries. might even just play outlaw this week

[spice spire]

I do all log reviews on mobile

Because I hate myself

[limber lion]

You do not switch to arrows in p1

That's inting

And you do less damage that way

[oak sky]

you only got 1 vendetta in p1

[limber lion]

It's all about maximizing p2 and p3 damage.

[carmine dawn]

went left once and right once for p2

[gusty mirage]

Dw I hate you too

[carmine dawn]

how do u even min/max that

[gusty mirage]

Left left is the play iirc

[carmine dawn]

yeah single add, makes sense

[oak sky]

nah you dont want single add for padding

[carmine dawn]

but still it dies before shiv is even done

[oak sky]

???????

[limber lion]

Lol

[carmine dawn]

for sin tho?

[limber lion]

Right, Right is the best for padding

[shy dust]

Left right

[limber lion]

Or Left Right

[shy dust]

Right*

Left right*

[limber lion]

But second left* is bad

[shy dust]

For max pad

[carmine dawn]

well im not asking to go certain directions during a trial. ill go where they send me

[gusty mirage]

Buncha degens padding

[oak sky]

yeah its cool

[limber lion]

Exactly

[gusty mirage]

Yeah didn’t ask

[limber lion]

But it legit makes no difference

[carmine dawn]

im still top 1-3 for sylv dmg

[gusty mirage]

[limber lion]

I've gotten multiple rank 1's from Sylv

[oak sky]

yeah ur on mobile

[carmine dawn]

but it feels bad parsing a 20

[limber lion]

And I always go left the second time

[gusty mirage]

Yeah my bad for being employed

[limber lion]

I don't have access to my mythic logs anymore, cringe

[oak sky]

yeah I'm a student

[gusty mirage]

Can I have access to your DMs?

[oak sky]

[spice spire]

Did you die p1?

[gusty mirage]

Cherish every moment of it

Literally every single moment

[carmine dawn]

does overall sylv dmg matter or should i only look at certain phases?

[spice spire]

Your rupture/garrote uptime+ damage is very low p1

[limber lion]

Look at phases

[spice spire]

I start by phases

[oak sky]

he missed a vendetta in p1 and in p2

[limber lion]

And compare your damage phase-by-phase

to the top logs

Like you're behind dps in every single phase

[carmine dawn]

i thinkour 2nd sylv kill i played v poorly

[limber lion]

By A LOT

[spice spire]

Yeah but I’m more concerned about the sub 80% Bleed up time on p1

[carmine dawn]

the goal is 2 full vendettas in p1 right?

[gusty mirage]

You should be head and shoulders above on sylv dam if you’re just sticking to her

[limber lion]

7.5k p1 is really poor.

4.9k p2 is really poor.

8.8k p3 is poor.

Like they're all pretty bad

There's something bigger going on

[carmine dawn]

damn so honestly just work on rotation

[spice spire]

Yeah it looks like your p1 is extremely low. 8.9 p3 is meh but could be better

[limber lion]

Than just "sticking to Sylv"

Because p3 is nothing but sticking to Sylv

[carmine dawn]

anything glaring in the replay?

[gusty mirage]

This was boss damage from one of our 125 wipes

[limber lion]

Let's take a look

[gusty mirage]

That’s just p1 and p2

[limber lion]

Actually first

Before we do

[carmine dawn]

i thought i was doing a decent job at sticking so it sounds like rotation

[limber lion]

Explain to me how you use your CDS on Sylv

[carmine dawn]

which phase

[limber lion]

Give me a breakdown

of all phases

Should know them by heart at this point

[carmine dawn]

uhh p1 my goal is 2 full vendettas

usually can get it off

[limber lion]

Assuming you progressed as Assassination as well

[gusty mirage]

In p1 make sure you know the veil timers and don’t cuck yourself on the 2nd vendoota

[carmine dawn]

well 2nd is useless after 10 secs

[limber lion]

Not just Vendetta*

[carmine dawn]

we usually call stop dps at 10s left on 2nd vend

[limber lion]

Give me Flag/Vend breakdowns

[carmine dawn]

usually on cooldown

[limber lion]

What about p2

[carmine dawn]

not usually. it is. since p1 is so short

[drifting cloud]

8.8k p3 isnt that bad Cev dont be like that

[limber lion]

P1 you should always be able to use 2 Vendettas and Flags

[carmine dawn]

and everything is back up after RP for p2 burn

[limber lion]

It's really bad

[carmine dawn]

p2 burn is everything on CD

[limber lion]

What does that mean?

First set of cds on the first set of adds?

And then on Sylv?

[drifting cloud]

I mean depending on gear you can just easily be down 500 dps compared to someone on farm for 2month

[limber lion]

Everything?

Flag on cooldown?

[limber lion]

500 dps

[carmine dawn]

first set of adds i hold CDs but use shiv

[limber lion]

not 3k

[carmine dawn]

i hold everything for first p2 sylv burn

[drifting cloud]

3k??

[limber lion]

Sure

[spice spire]

12k p3 damage Cev

[echo geyser]

[spice spire]

[limber lion]

What about Flag

[oak sky]

quake

i figured out

[gusty mirage]

[drifting cloud]

cev not everyone is like you, I think ive seen like 2 logs above 11k in p3

[oak sky]

what i did especially bad

i lost a cast of flag

[drifting cloud]

not that ive looked alot tbh

[oak sky]

[carmine dawn]

flag i hold with trinket for first burn. but shiv i try to get one off on each set of adds

[limber lion]

Well, let's say that 10k is assumed

That's still more than 1k difference

[spice spire]

Oh no buddy

Soon you’re gonna drag

[oak sky]

i overthought it

[limber lion]

Yes, but what do you do with Flag after the first burn?

[spice spire]

Can’t believe how hard you gapped everyone else p3

[spice spire]

Classic

[carmine dawn]

i guess i hold till p3

which sounds wrong now

[oak sky]

no literally

[limber lion]

p3?

What about the second burn

[drifting cloud]

and depending if you lust start of platform4 because boss dies faster that fuck up assa

[oak sky]

the same thing happened when i did heroic with gromnak

[limber lion]

Do you not use cds on the second burn?

[carmine dawn]

i dont use for 2nd

[limber lion]

Why?

[carmine dawn]

2nd seems too close to p3

wait no

[limber lion]

Why does it matter?

[carmine dawn]

i started doing that

[limber lion]

Also

[oak sky]

i lost a cast of flag on both remnant and guardian @spice spire

[echo geyser]

do i need to get Fae from priest if i play sin on sylv?

[gusty mirage]

If you pop CDs on 2nd burn it should line up almost perfectly with the veils

[carmine dawn]

sorry. i started using flag/trinket/shiv on 2nd burn. and it comes up at the end of vendetta in p3

[echo geyser]

for double vendy p2 burns

[limber lion]

No

[spice spire]

[limber lion]

You can use double Vend, but you don't get full value from the second one

As long as you're quick on the first burn

[echo geyser]

[drifting cloud]

on 2nd burn do you send after veil cev?

[carmine dawn]

so yeah mostly everything is on CD the whole time

[echo geyser]

i guess u can pre dot in the immune phase

[carmine dawn]

then p3 im not holding anything ofc

[drifting cloud]

just 5cp+shadowstep, vendetta flag right after it? or is that train of thought wrong

[limber lion]

I save Cloak for second burn so I can stand on waves during cds, I use cds on the first adds and second burn

To get full value out of both

But you can do full vend on the first burn and half on the second, that's fine

[spice spire]

Holy shit

[drifting cloud]

oh yeah Ive never had to cd 1st adds

[oak sky]

i flag colossus because our damage is bad

[spice spire]

That’s the tech

[limber lion]

You can use it whenever it comes off cd

[spice spire]

[carmine dawn]

so start using vend on 2nd burn in p2

[limber lion]

Because you won't get full value out of it anyways

[carmine dawn]

is a decent uptick

[oak sky]

losing casts is always bad

[limber lion]

You really need to figure out your CDS

And get consistent with them

[oak sky]

i speak from experience on this fight

[carmine dawn]

right and quake said my bleeds are weirdly bad on p1 too

[limber lion]

These are my simple recommendations:

[spice spire]

Something was up on the p1 king

Damage was disgustingly low bleeds dropped was sus

And listen to cev. Makes log review easy

[bleak sky]

i'm trialing on sylv and god bless cev

taking notes of the bible this man is about to write

[limber lion]

P1: Sync Vendetta/Flag both times, or even if you're not syncing, make sure to use both twice.

P2: Use both CDs on both burns, USE FLAG IMMEDIATELY ON SECOND BURN, VENDETTA WHEN AVAILABLE

P3: Use Flagellation and Vendetta on cooldown (usually Vend right after Veils so you get maximum value) AND sync the last Flag+Vendetta together with lust.

The most important part is using Flag as much as possible and holding either Flag or Vendetta to sync them together for the last lust burn.

You want maximum value out of your CDs whenever possible, so using it right before spreading is not optimal.

Or whenever boss is about to jump off

Or whatever

[carmine dawn]

thank you. exactly what i need

[limber lion]

Also for minmaxing, make sure to save 5 CP when transitioning to P3

So you can shadowstep + Rupture for your free global

[carmine dawn]

the first part i knew but that ss/ into rup is 5head

[hollow river]

Can’t fit one vend on each?

[carmine dawn]

damn

[limber lion]

That'll maintain Alacrity and you'll have Rupture ready

[carmine dawn]

we have been calling stop dam at 10s left on vend almost like clockwork so i wont hold flag for it

[limber lion]

No, without faerie you do not get full value out of the second Vendetta.

[oak sky]

duskwalkers patch

[carmine dawn]

damn shadowstep into rup in like a .5s window? cev do you know thats an insane reflex lmao

[limber lion]

With our level 15 talent branch being dedicated to stealth/vanish, duskwalker's will never be good.

[oak sky]

/s

[limber lion]

Our Vanish has too much power for what it is and Vendetta too little

[limber lion]

I know, but Duskies used to be decent for some fights during Legion

They were fun

Too bad they suck now

[limber lion]

You click Sylvanas' boss health bar right as she stuns you

Then you just spam your shadowstep/rupture keys

Also another small thing

Stop using Poisoned Knives so much

It's such an awful ability

[carmine dawn]

sometimes i try to help by 5cp kidney shotting an add in that last part

[limber lion]

It costs almost as much as a Mutilate

[carmine dawn]

is that dumb

[limber lion]

But does so very little

[limber lion]

Yes

Do not use Kidney ever in Sylvanas.

[carmine dawn]

too utility minded from playing outlaw

[limber lion]

P1 you tank the fixate add with Evasion

And that's about it

Let me show you one thing

[carmine dawn]

ah so evasion into FOK/envenom funnel?

[limber lion]

More or less, you want to gar/rup one or two

But that's very minimal

That's not what is gonna make it or break it

[carmine dawn]

they live long enough?

[limber lion]

This is one of your Vendetta's in p3

[carmine dawn]

oh i fucked that up

[dim mural]

instead of shadowstep+rupture, cant you just hit her with a 5p rupture and garrote before she vanishes off the last platform and the dots carry over? pretty sure they do in HC. or is it just to maintain alacrity?

[limber lion]

Here's a Veil

[spice spire]

Oh no

[limber lion]

You missed out on 10 seconds of Vendetta

By using it before the Veil

Well, more like 6s

[carmine dawn]

yeah thats horrible

sheesh

[oak sky]

cev i have a question

[carmine dawn]

i havent been too cognizant of CDs during downtime, im just not used to it. so if raidlead ever calls out two spread mechanics, then re-dot and hold anything like shiv?

[oak sky]

do you think its worth using vendetta when it comes up before veil in p1 since you have to hold/ you push the boss there anyway

[limber lion]

The second one?

Yes, absolutely

[oak sky]

yeah

[limber lion]

You use it on cooldown

The second it comes off cd, you slam it

[oak sky]

yeah thats what ive been doing

[limber lion]

You hold Flag for it though

[oak sky]

yep

i was holding flag and using it while the sentinels die for resets

then the 10s of haste buff is during the 10ish seconds of vendetta

[placid pagoda]

@limber lion yo is your plater profile staying updated? i just lost all my wa / addons and when i reinstalled your plater its not working properly

[limber lion]

You shouldn't really hold Shiv.

[hollow river]

Oof. I’m assigned to both burns.

[limber lion]

Also you if you know there's a spread mechanic coming, you need to play accordingly so your bleeds don't drop during it.

And reapply bleeds earlier.

[hollow river]

Even getting PI for first burn.

[limber lion]

Also I'm gonna be honest

[carmine dawn]

even reapplying before pandemic?

[limber lion]

Yes, if they are going to drop because of spreading or whatever, you do it early

Having your bleeds drop is worse than reapplying a few seconds too early.

Also another quite major thing

You press Feint way too much

[carmine dawn]

so only before a scream?

[oak sky]

should only use that during spread wail on burn and arrows in p3 right?

[carmine dawn]

or just. never?

[limber lion]

You used about 300 energy just on Feint

[spice spire]

Wtf

[limber lion]

Never.

I'm gonna be honest

[carmine dawn]

D:

[limber lion]

If you dying is because you didn't feint

[carmine dawn]

does feint suck

[limber lion]

Something else is wrong

[oak sky]

if youre literally off the boss

[limber lion]

No, Feint is perfectly fine for progression

And it'll help your healers out

But my guy

[oak sky]

feint is fine 👍

[limber lion]

If you die because you didn't feint, there's something else going on

[spice spire]

Frost shards alone make you hella tanky

[limber lion]

Feint is great for single big booms

[carmine dawn]

like arrow

[limber lion]

But when there's screams/banshee's fury

There's always 10 healer cd's down

It's literally waste of energy

using feint

[carmine dawn]

ahh true

[limber lion]

Because there's already healers supposed to heal you up

[drifting cloud]

the scream does dmg on your missing health anyways

[limber lion]

Yeh

[drifting cloud]

if youre full hp it does like 10k

[carmine dawn]

feint abuser ig

cool thanks for the heads up

[spice spire]

Feint abuser non-bleed believer ig

[carmine dawn]

!tox

will report back next week with findings.

or i wont. who knows.

[spice spire]

Nah you got this

[limber lion]

Also

Is your raidleader trolling?

[golden basalt]

unbinds feint

[vestal wren]

#off-topic <- this way

[spice spire]

Guaranteed purple if you listen to Cev.

[limber lion]

It's not off-topic...

[carmine dawn]

hes saying that cause i gave a moroes command

[vestal wren]

jake was typing !tox ^^

[limber lion]

Oh

Right

But yeah

[carmine dawn]

oh wft group?

[limber lion]

Why

[spice spire]

[limber lion]

Why is the DH getting WFT but not you?

[oak sky]

[limber lion]

Also why are every single warrior doing less p3 damage than either of the rogues

[carmine dawn]

cause im a trial and im not gonna say anything

[limber lion]

kek

[carmine dawn]

and someones posted the graphic before so..

[oak sky]

hes demonic

[limber lion]

Oh this one?

The one where DH is below Assa?

[carmine dawn]

lol

[oak sky]

hes literally not dblades

[carmine dawn]

[oak sky]

momentum dh had some copium or whatever

but liiiike

demonic theres no excuse

[echo geyser]

@kind talon wtf theres raidlogger

skip alter ego

[oak sky]

hes real

[limber lion]

Also this PI target is legit trolling

Guess they're just rolling it out or something

[carmine dawn]

lmao they were talking about that

no one else asked for it

said the priest

[echo geyser]

[limber lion]

Also you should switch to sharpening stones + agi pots

[carmine dawn]

10-4

[oak sky]

demo and fire mage

[limber lion]

it's kinda small, but no reason to use oil/pf

[oak sky]

time to pi hunter i guess

[carmine dawn]

havent run the sim in a long time tbh

but i only ran it on outlaw

[placid pagoda]

@limber lion any idea why your plater profile has stopped working?

[drifting cloud]

yeah outlaw has cracked multiplies for the pot, ive used sharpening and agi whole xpac outside of theotar cheese

[limber lion]

Ah sorry, no clue.

I haven't logged in more than a month

I don't see why it wouldn't work

@carmine dawn

[golden basalt]

The sim might still say oil, but it’s high roll and agi pot is just way more consistent

[limber lion]

One more thing

[kind talon]

@carmine dawn IN GUILD WITH RAIDLOGGER?

[echo geyser]

holy

chad

[oak sky]

[limber lion]

Quiz-time, how would you improve your cd usage here?

[echo geyser]

sync

[placid pagoda]

Wait no its sorted, it imported wrong my mistake

[echo geyser]

[limber lion]

Which one