assassination

[icy iron]

[ebon fulcrum]

worth using frost + Dashing Scoundrel even when not fully upgraded?

[zinc frost]

You can sim yourself to see the difference, but if your talking rank 4 UH set vs rank 1 frost set, UH will be ahead until you rank up your frost shards

[ebon fulcrum]

the sim says to stay with doomsblade - rank 5 unholy vs rank 5 frost

[balmy condor]

Necro i assume?

[ebon fulcrum]

vent

[balmy condor]

Now that’s weird

You wanna link that sim?

I’ll take a look

[ebon fulcrum]

Sure, sec I'll sim again

[balmy condor]

I’m at work atm so will have to wait maybe 10 min

No rush

[ebon fulcrum]

Oh shit I forgot to check the "Replace Existing Gems/Enchants". now it pref the frost + DS

[balmy condor]

That sounds better

[spice spire]

[ebon fulcrum]

Ok I wasn't wrong, its pref the rank 5 UH + doomsblade

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/u2NSSiGUbyaiEXfAThi1cY

[balmy condor]

oh homie got no crit

I see

but also why are turning off all the buffs

4 minute kill time but no warrior no dh no monk no mage no priest no shaman for lust

raid of just DK's and hunters?

[ebon fulcrum]

ok thats better 😄
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jt8ByoJGGc3vgntdgJMyui

frost it is I guess

[hollow river]

why no buffs o.O

[ebon fulcrum]

why sim buffs? I wanna see the trend. I don't care if its x or x+y

[hollow river]

because you should have those buffs when your shard set bonus is active

[balmy condor]

because buffs have an effect?

[hollow river]

^^^^^^^

buffs can change what sims best for you

[balmy condor]

you're playing soccer with a volleyball and going "why does it matter they're both round and squishy"

well yeah

sure

but it's not a soccer ball

[hollow river]

i play soccer with my hands, and video games with my feet.

[zinc frost]

[hollow river]

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

also you're only simming with sharpening stone in your main hand?

[ebon fulcrum]

How does battle shout effect your decision on whether you use hate\crit? or frost\unholy shards?

[ebon fulcrum]

Yea thats my bad 😛

[hollow river]

every buff plays its role

lust is hyper important too

[zinc frost]

I mean, you sim yourself to optimise your character.. buffs good

[balmy condor]

lust is giga important yeah

[hollow river]

imo simming no buffs, when in practice you will have those buffs... is inting.

if you don't have WFT, or a particular buff, then yeah sim without it.

but in raid you should have all the major buffs.

[balmy condor]

battle shout might not have as much of an effect as like lust, but it does increase your AP which drives things apart. If envenom does 2x the damage of a rupture (just hypothetically), and that's 200 vs 100 right now, you gain some ilvl, and a battle shout, and now it's 240 vs 120, the ratio is still the same, but the damage between them is not

that then means that envenom directly has gained more, so the envenom is worth more in turn, etc

like it's minor

but if you have those things

why not just sim them

what's the point

[kind talon]

He’s clearly dimming for solo legacy raid content

[balmy condor]

if you have a DH, your poison/envenom damage will be higher compared to everything else

[hollow river]

with shard set bonus?

[balmy condor]

if you have a monk, envenom doesn't gain but rupture does

[kind talon]

Uh

True

[ebon fulcrum]

Hmmm yea thats a good point

[balmy condor]

I mean the crazier thing to me is you’re trying to optimize your character for raids

But then not accounting for any of the raid stuff

[ebon notch]

fuck i was hoping this wasnt true

[ebon notch]

maybe he thinks the buffs are simply a flat gain and as a result if he sims without it he can add it on top later?

a bit unnecessary but sound logic

[oak sky]

iirc whispyr said anything that isnt barf yellow is dh buff

[ebon notch]

damn bruh rogues prefer dh almost over monk

all them poisons

[oak sky]

i think sub and sin actually do

idr exactly

outlaw doesnt tho

[hollow river]

my prog doesn't even have a monk

[ebon notch]

wtf

[hollow river]

ours quit

and our other rogue is gearing a monk

but its been pretty slow and he's a good rogue player, and has to learn monk

idk

[ebon notch]

oofers

[balmy condor]

Yes

We do

[oak sky]

kinda sad tbh

that dh buff is just way better

[ebon notch]

I can't believe I did all of KT without a DH

Sheesh

[oak sky]

pain

wouldnt we value dh less in aoe

since its mostly just poisons

[ebon notch]

Nah cause dashing goes brrrrrr

[kind talon]

sheesh

[slow marsh]

you guys who have downed pain, do you stack in one group or two or none

[ebon notch]

when

like

all the time or

[slow marsh]

intermission

sorry

[ebon notch]

one

[slow marsh]

that's what i thought

[ebon notch]

i mean

you basicallyl wanna

just finish the intermission right

as long as you get to the gateway

at the end

all together

thats all that matters

[slow marsh]

yeah

[ebon notch]

just survive

doesnt matter how

[slow marsh]

true but when you have a bunch of monkeys imo it's better to force the stack instead of just ffa everyone doing random shit and dying every pull

right?

[brazen zodiac]

feels right

[ebon notch]

yes

put a marker on someone

a tank

and just have them stick to him like glue

have the raid leader designate walking behind the balls

never in front

[slow marsh]

That's what I thought but just wanted to confirm that's the strat for most peeps and not just top guild guides

[hollow river]

we didn't even use gateway

and we stacked adds fine

[ebon notch]

yeah thats how echo does it

but its honestly better to just use the gateway as a grouping tool

especially if people are struggling with the intermission

[brazen zodiac]

@zinc frost

hi

u play sin in 20s right?

[slow marsh]

i played sin in a 20 once

[full tendon]

I do, ama

[slow marsh]

twice sorry

[hollow river]

yeah i can see this being the play if people are struggling with inermission

i guess our biggest issue once we got intermissions down was mainly ranged brains with chains

[slow marsh]

we just keep having too many people die in intermission

[hollow river]

and random deaths to mistakes on balls/creeping spikes

[hollow river]

how many pulls ?

[slow marsh]

97

best pull is 49%

[hollow river]

intermissions are a rep thing, the more reps everyone gets the easier it is

[slow marsh]

I can't imagine getting through another intermission

[hollow river]

once you get into p3 a few times its basically gg

but thats a lot of pulls

for ppl to still be struggling

[ebon notch]

nah we were still struggling

all the way up to 120

we killed the boss our first time with someone dead

the entire fight

[cobalt pelican]

boost ready(tm)

definitely won't take 100 more pulls on reclear

[zinc frost]

Yep!

[brazen zodiac]

was just double checking :D

someone said i'd have to play sub to do 20s and didnt remmeber if u were sin or sub

[full tendon]

Ignore them

Although def don't recommend running with two bursty mfers

[brazen zodiac]

yeah they did say i could maybe play sin but i need a specific comp

which i wouldnt have so f

[full tendon]

You don't need a SPECIFIC comp

i just don't recommend something like WW et al

[brazen zodiac]

plus i run obedience 262 so stuck usin that over 235 zold f

[obtuse robin]

i didnt say comp

i said static group

[full tendon]

I think people here said obed is fine in keys?

I'm not venth though

And run zold

[zinc frost]

Obedience is pretty good, I like it

[brazen zodiac]

whats the difference? googled it and idk if its the right answer

[full tendon]

Comp is irrelevant to same players, but same classes/specs

Static means pre-made, friends, team

[obtuse robin]

yea ^^

[fallen arch]

Sin is perfectfor pugging higher keys imo

Because you don’t rely on cd’s to do damage

[brazen zodiac]

hmm

[fallen arch]

Higher keys meaning 20s and up

[brazen zodiac]

ye ah

[fallen arch]

Comp doesn’t really matter either I think

[brazen zodiac]

xd

[fallen arch]

If you run with like a fire mage and ww

You’ll do good cleanup damage and pump on bosses

[brazen zodiac]

mmm guess ill get one goin sometime

[obtuse robin]

thats just not reality in general but i guess u can

[fallen arch]

What’s not?

‘Just get one going’ or?

[obtuse robin]

for someone who wants to push past 20 keys pugging as sin

[fallen arch]

Oh ye, it’s rough out there

[obtuse robin]

not fun

[fallen arch]

It takes a lot of patience

Pugging is fine after you gained score with a solid (guild) group I’d say

[obtuse robin]

even with a premade u just gotta liek sin alot

[fallen arch]

Altho no one has ever asked me why I play sin in keys

[obtuse robin]

and have cool friends

[ebon notch]

just be good lmao

[fallen arch]

And no one ever asked me to play anything else

[obtuse robin]

thats an exception tho

but i feel ya

[kind talon]

i love

apping for guilds

and they ask

"why do u play outlaw"

probably same for sin in keys

[ebon notch]

LMAOOOOO

[kind talon]

lol

[ebon notch]

i joined a wr 250 guild for SLG progress

[obtuse robin]

it is

[ebon notch]

"oh you play outlaw? thats kinda cringe"

[kind talon]

kek

[obtuse robin]

in 9.0?

[ebon notch]

took me 3 raid days to be able to get in on prog and i immediately earned a spot

public perception is doggo

[obtuse robin]

that was the go to spec in that time so idk lmao

[fallen arch]

Exception how?

I have been pugging since 9.0

[ebon notch]

yeah if you had to play rogue

[fallen arch]

Never ever was I kicked or not invited for playing sin

[ebon notch]

but it still wasnt "great"

[obtuse robin]

uh because its ur own exp?

[fallen arch]

Own exp over a pretty long period of time

So I wouldn’t call it an exception

But we can agree to disagree

[obtuse robin]

thats literally what it is

anecdotal

[fallen arch]

People look at your score, not at your spec

[obtuse robin]

exception not the rule

xd

[brazen zodiac]

yeah that was the plan !

gonna time the rest of my 19s and see :D

[fallen arch]

Anecdotal means it happened ‘this one time’

Over 2 seasons I pugged a couple of hundred keys and I never got shit over my spec

[oak sky]

nobody cares unless your damage is bad

and nobody ever cares before the key

[balmy condor]

anecdotal actually means based on personal experience and not rooted in fact or research

[balmy condor]

I for example got shit on all the time for playing sin keys during the 3 seasons of BFA

my claim holds no more weight than yours

because they're both our own personal accounts

[fallen arch]

Right

[obtuse robin]

thats def not what it means

[oak sky]

(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

[obtuse robin]

yea whyspyr has it

[oak sky]

I mean

I also don't think its the exception

but it definitely makes sense that people would sometimes get shit from people about it

[fallen arch]

Thank you

[oak sky]

getting kicked seems ridiculous

[balmy condor]

anyway, I have to work, keep it civil and spec related while I'm gone

[obtuse robin]

nah its def the exception

[oak sky]

ok

[obtuse robin]

its the literal definetion

[oak sky]

no....

[obtuse robin]

of anecdotal

[oak sky]

whispyr was on the money

your experience with it being bad is equally anecdotal

[obtuse robin]

and what he said was what i said

[fallen arch]

I just don’t agree but w/e

It’s not important

[obtuse robin]

it is cuz if we cant understand what words and ideas mean and just gonna change what it means

thats a problem

[oak sky]

not sure what you mean there

[fallen arch]

Words have different nuances in different languages

But that’s not the point

[obtuse robin]

if ur gonna take someones personal exp and present it as not anecdotal

then yea

[oak sky]

yeah oz's experience is anecdotal but yours is too

we haven't done a survey so we don't know what most people have experienced

[obtuse robin]

so we gonna act like in general sin doesnt have the hardest time in high keys over outlaw or sub

i dont understand

[oak sky]

oh like in terms of usefuless? no

[obtuse robin]

wat

alright

[oak sky]

yeah sin is worse

[fallen arch]

You get invited because of your score and class, regardless of spec

And yes, the other two specs are superior and everybody knows it

[obtuse robin]

and thats wat we r talking about

[oak sky]

no

not really

[fallen arch]

But that does not mean that it doesn’t get you accepted or gets you kicked

[ebon notch]

Sin faces the same utility problems that sub faces due to the lack of gauge and not running MFD

[obtuse robin]

yes we r because this irginated from vits wanting to push high keys

[ebon notch]

There are some dungeons that favour sin over sub, but those dungeons usually favour outlaw over sin

[obtuse robin]

xd

[oak sky]

tbh usually just being a melee and not having lust or brez is the reason

not being a rogue

or even a sin rogue

[ebon notch]

Seeing as I'm probably the highest rio of the people in this convo who has played both sin and sub in 22+ keys I feel like I know what I'm talking about

[kind talon]

O:

[fallen arch]

I’m just saying that if vita wants to push 20s and over, she has an equal chance of doing that with sub or sin

[ebon notch]

For sure

[kind talon]

yeah its true

[ebon notch]

20s are nothing

Play wme

[oak sky]

of finding groups likely yes, but sub will do more most likely yeah?

[fallen arch]

For you

[obtuse robin]

bro

[kind talon]

20s are nothing dude

[ebon notch]

Play DS KS kyrian outlaw if you want

[obtuse robin]

nvm lol

[kind talon]

actually lol

[fallen arch]

For some ppl 20s are the end goal

[ebon notch]

You'll time a 20

I mean in terms of gear, 20s are well within reach

[fallen arch]

True

[ebon notch]

It will largely be a skill barrier holding people back

[oak sky]

getting into 20s/ completing 20s spec shouldn't be an issue, especially with how solid overall balance is

[kind talon]

for some people

heroic sylv is the end goal

[ebon notch]

And that is up to the player

[kind talon]

and thats fine

doesnt mean that

[fallen arch]

^

[kind talon]

heroic sylv is hard

[ebon notch]

Fo sho

But I don't really get your point @obtuse robin

You gotta expand a bit

[obtuse robin]

really mainly just oz not knowing what anecdotal ment

[ebon notch]

But he's right

[fallen arch]

Thats not what this startes

[obtuse robin]

lol

[ebon notch]

Anecdotal means a statement that is not rooted in empirical fact or backed by data

[oak sky]

i already linked the definition daps

its all good

[fallen arch]

Also, its nuances differently on Dutch, please dont blame me for being not an English native

[ebon notch]

It has nothing to do with the sample size or whatever "fringe" cases it could be referencing

[obtuse robin]

yea did u see what he wrote

for its meaning

ur backing me not him

[ebon notch]

The meaning has been put forward several times though by now

So it's cleared up right?

Topic over yes

[obtuse robin]

?

we just talking

[kind talon]

sin is the worst spec for pushing keys

but its not bad

[obtuse robin]

and i dont know why ppl argue past that

thats literally it right there

everything i have said boils down to that

and im a sin stan

[oak sky]

i think everyone thought you were saying something a little different

but its ok

all cool

[obtuse robin]

if ppl dont know what words mean then yea thats gonna happen

[fallen arch]

Dude could you please just stop now?

Shall I dm you a translation of the Dutch definition of anecdotal?

[ivory chasm]

Yo, I'm looking through some top M+ logs for assassination, and not a lot of them spam rupture and use envenom instead

Is there a reason for that?

[obtuse robin]

if thats all it takes that kinda funny

anyway

[ebon notch]

They might be running doomblade? They may also just be trying to dump energy as after a certain number of rupture applications you become energy capped

[fallen arch]

Prio damage?

[ebon notch]

They may also be trying to keep envenom buff up

[ivory chasm]

nah they're running venth leggo

[kind talon]

"some" as in

how many logs?

[ebon notch]

Then they're trying to dump CP as much as possible during flag window to reduce the cd

[kind talon]

how many players are doing this

[ivory chasm]

the top 2 venth ass in m+

[fallen arch]

Looking at top m+ logs might not be the best to do tho

[ebon notch]

Cause you can go past 30 stacks and continue to reduce the cd

[oak sky]

logs are weird

[kind talon]

can u post them

[fallen arch]

Since they’re probably playing around their comp

[oak sky]

in m+

[ebon notch]

Also true

[fallen arch]

Might just be funneling into big adds

[oak sky]

most likely

yeah

[fallen arch]

Sacrificing overall damage

[kind talon]

@ivory chasm can u post the logs

[oak sky]

it can speed up the key to do more single target on mobs with more hp

[ivory chasm]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pa28zH9kFJjYfCWr#fight=23&type=damage-done&source=3

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/k6jQmMh3ZpHYr2KD#fight=3&phase=3&start=1238496&end=1542403

[oak sky]

its something they do in mdi a lot with sub rogue/frost mage

well either way if they're doing prio damage it's optimal to maintain 5 garrotes/ruptures which idk if they do or not

im not too great with logs

[ivory chasm]

i thought in aoe you only empowered garrote

[kind talon]

no

[fallen arch]

No

Just use on cd

[oak sky]

i meant 5 garrotes or ruptures btw

[fallen arch]

As its a builder and it gains u energy

[oak sky]

like total

[kind talon]

no

[oak sky]

but in big aoe packs and stuff you want bleeds on as much stuff as possible

[kind talon]

oh

prio dmg

ye

but thats only

for like

council of blood

lol

[oak sky]

or like

shard of halkias

[kind talon]

in m+ u still garrote

doesnt matter

:D

[oak sky]

envenom is good to maintain snd and kill prio targets but other than that we don't press it in aoe unless everything has full bleeds basically

[fallen arch]

However

If you have a monk and ele annihalate packs

You keep bleeds up on big guys and funnel into them probably

Because slapping 5cp rups in little mobs just is of no use then

[kind talon]

yep

u choose prio target and rupture then envenom it

like

one of those logs was

fire mage aff lock

with the assa rogue

[fallen arch]

The Russian one ye

They have small adds down before u can type out rupture

[north basin]

yesterday ran 21 sanguine depths as obe sin, well we managed to time it with like 1 min left, but i was sooo behind hunter and arms, felt like deadweight

but i guess if it was time. i did my job. this is how it works in 20+ keys?

[spice spire]

Yeah big thing as rogue is to funnel prio target on several pulls with that comp. Obviously not as strong as sub funnel - but it does the job nicely.

[fallen arch]

You shouldn’t be that far behind tho

[north basin]

well it was my first 20+ key, before that i was top deeps in general. in 19 keys,

[fallen arch]

But it depends on pull size

[north basin]

but pugs decided to pick me straight to 21 key

and btw, u have easier approach to packs with sub right? just fok and blackpowder spam, while iin sin u need to 4 emp garrrote + look out for ruptures on everyone and CT not to fall off

right?

[fallen arch]

Ye basically

[north basin]

so more skill based XD

sin

[fallen arch]

Maintain snd with envenom

I don’t think it’s that’s hard

I have a way harder time playing outlaw right tbh

Have yet to try sub

[north basin]

ye didnt try outlaw yet coz no weapons, but run 19 keys with sub,

much less worries about ^getting dot on evertarget^

[spice spire]

Yeah it’s a lot easier to do funnel stuff as sub because energy regen not a huge deal for sub

[north basin]

btw i can do my forth leg today, have obe doom scoundrel 262, thinking about zoldyk 262 finally. worth a shot?

or i wont notice difference over obe+scoundrel in mm+

[fallen arch]

Ye zoldyck good

U don’t really want to use dashing in m+ tho

[north basin]

i just went to warlogs and see rogues use dashing obe and zoldyk in 25 keys

but if i arrange by damage done, obe highest, but iam afraid iam doing some mistake in evaluating results xD

[fallen arch]

Don’t look at logs for m+

I mean, u can get a general idea what people are doing but that doesn’t make it right for everyone

[north basin]

https://gyazo.com/d5cacfff8045e7e99b08382420696b9c

like i see this rogue tries everything, and have obe as highest damage xD

i know its very blunt to look that way.,,, but

[fallen arch]

This is one player yes

Highly optimized for his specific comp

[arctic hare]

true

[north basin]

so i have one question. will making 262 zoldyk will net dps increase for my pug runs over 262 obe)

but its hard to answer i guess,

[fallen arch]

Probably

Because you have to care less about one of your cooldowns timing

And have a passive extra damage effect

On everything

[north basin]

yes my thoughts exactly

but i question it here to see if i have some caveats xD

[oak sky]

Only thing to consider is zoldyck will do less when pugs melt packs

[fallen arch]

Then again, obedience provides more burst windows, which is probably nicer to have for prio damage

[oak sky]

But zoldyck is really good

[brazen zodiac]

I can't wait to try out nerco in m+ pog

[north basin]

ok, iam heading towards ah to buy 262 zold

[brazen zodiac]

I still need 1105 for mine

[north basin]

also when something is fucked up i do 19-21 stacks with obe, and zoldyk always 30% increase XD

[oak sky]

For sure

Zoldyck is 100% worth crafting though

[kind talon]

zoldyck is better overall

obedience is the ST option

[north basin]

ye already teleporting to craft area xD

[zinc frost]

It’s really fun

[north basin]

btw about stats in m+ sin with zoldyk, crit mastery?

[oak sky]

Crit haste or crit mastery

[brazen zodiac]

Would you say it's better than venthr?

[north basin]

iam 249 geared for raid with tons of crit haste

[oak sky]

Really all stats are good in m+

Do what feels rigjt

Right

[north basin]

ye but last time i checked 5miin 5 targets it was 9 for crit mastery and 7 for haste ) statsweights

[brazen zodiac]

oh no

[zinc frost]

I prefer the playstyle of obedience in keys and venth for raiding but necro pumps

[brazen zodiac]

Only one way to find out!!! Hyped for that to come out

Plus I wanna check out the necro and kyrian campaign

[fallen arch]

Statweights

[north basin]

ye here people always laugh when i mention statweight )

[zinc frost]

Honestly bonespike in keys is such a fun ability

[balmy condor]

Yeah cause it’s a joke

[north basin]

damn!

i have plain and simple way of thinking about m+ approach, like in my level of keys i have 5-10 mobs which dies in 1 or 1-30 min this is 90% of my time spent in m+ on these scenarios. so if i want to excel in such situations i need to tailor my gear toward 1, 1-30 min, 5-10 mob situations and mastery tops here.

flawed logic or legit ?XD

[oak sky]

we typically sim with dungeon slice which is generally accurate for rogue

[north basin]

ye i know . i sim it too and its quite accurate to what iam getting in the end of run, but my question is still pending XD

[oak sky]

idk everything about sims but i think dungeon slice is a combo of a short boss fight and some packs of different amounts of mobs

i think thats why we use it instead of a target count or something

to include the boss part

mastery is good in aoe though i can tell you that without a personal sim

[north basin]

i will run heavy mastery setup with zoldyk today, to see and compare with myself with obe.

in many m+

[placid dawn]

On fatescribe, for last phase burn, should I dot the add? For maximum pump on the boss

[oak sky]

yeah

garrote and rupture

[round temple]

On ner’zul, should I dot the orbs before he does the suffering?

[zinc frost]

Before

[rotund drift]

how much haste do i wanna have in general?

[dense hamlet]

Sim it theres no magic number

[autumn prism]

Yo

Plague deviser or bonesmith in Sanctum

I've simmed both but i dont see much of a difference in numbers

but i do see alot using Deviser on Warcraft Logs

[fallen arch]

Not much is needed, stack crit in general if you use frost set and sim upgrades to see if they’re worth

[north basin]

btw for m+ which poison we should use?

with which comp. is there any table so i can look up and decide?

like some classes can slow movement some can reduce attack speed and cast speed, so i want to avoid situation when everyone do same

[fallen arch]

Usually you run mind numbing

Unless tank has to kite a lot and you lack slows in the group

Then you run crippling

[north basin]

i do usually run with mindnuming, but iam not familiar with all classes. mb someone have better utiility kit than my numbing so i can ppick cripping

lack of info, from my side

so thought mb there is some table. likee when u have monk in party pick something etc etc

or frost mage

[fallen arch]

Not really

[north basin]

i understand its so minor. but would like to minmax.

[fallen arch]

It doesn’t do anything for dps tho

[north basin]

just to ez progress in m+

[fallen arch]

Just run mind numbing

And if you lack slow, you will notice

[north basin]

i do 100% of time run it., but gave it a second thought today

[fallen arch]

Spiteful without frost mage I usually run it

[rotund drift]

im on 38% crit and 32% haste 👀

[fallen arch]

That doesn’t tell me all that much, but it’s safe to get rid of some haste for ilvl/more crit

It’s not something you’re gonna notice

[rocky pecan]

38% crit is low

if you play for set

frost*

[glass tulip]

I currently have 50% crit / 15% haste for my frost and it pumps winds of winter up

[fallen arch]

50% is probably too much

[glass tulip]

Never too much

Gotta get lost in the sauce

I have a haste ring that I swap in and out and it swings those stats by 3-4% each

[fallen arch]

Read up on DR, can’t imagine crit still wins for you over other secondaries

[glass tulip]

What's DR

[fallen arch]

Diminishing returns

After a certain point the value of stats is diminished

Which means I think that points on gear give less %

That’s why you always sim

[glass tulip]

I sim all new pieces I get and top gear but I'll do these specific ones and let ya know

[fallen arch]

I’m curious, can you link your most current sim?

Can’t imagine it’s telling you to keep stacking crit, but I could be wrong

[plain thistle]

DR starts at 30% crit

and the third breakpoint is 47%

which mean most of us are playing with 20% DR (which is 39% to 47% crit)

[fallen arch]

Right, well there you go

[plain thistle]

but 50% does looks like a lot, when I got to 47-48% crit which is 30% DR haste was already simming better

[fallen arch]

For me as necro it’s at even lower crit than that

That haste is simming better I mean

[frigid kestrel]

Ye I’m still simming crit as the higher stat at %45, but I can see Haste got a lot closer in stat weights.

(Disclaimer I only do stat weights out of pure curiosity, I always top gear for what to wear)

[glass tulip]

You want just a regular quick sim?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/59UMgxtjLkxbQWLd7cikjX

and here are stat weights:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2ApgNDWW2aruVjvs88wSDT

[misty holly]

around 41% crit is where haste caught up for me (necrolord)

[fallen arch]

Ye

[cinder cape]

Do I need to do anything fancy to get frost set to explode on adds on soulrender. Like pull when it has 15 secs left

[glass tulip]

I may be wrong but I am pretty sure it targets the last enemy that you hit a crit on.

So there isn't really a way to target it unless you are specifically single targeting the boss

[craggy gust]

Does guardian raid trinket > KT raid trinket ?

[glass tulip]

Sim it, but based on what I see on warcraft logs, bloodmallet and other websites, yeah

[craggy gust]

hmm just looking at each one and playing around with both

the KT trinket i can use twice per vendetta

for the extra dmg while having high chances to do frost dmg

so just reading it sounds better for an overall encounter

about to raid and try the guardian one right now

[rigid pine]

Vendetta doesn't affect trinkets

[craggy gust]

i was looking more at usage uptime not vendetta making trinkets strong

[thorny pond]

Every non stat trinket is just shoot on CD unless it’ll get clipped by downtime

[fallen arch]

Ye, and amp is just flat out better

Than KT trinket at similar lvl

[thorny pond]

Even for frost set it won’t matter because the damage spike will get put into the next blast

[craggy gust]

ok thanks

ill run amp instead

[hollow river]

There’s also a magical place called raidbots.com

[quaint carbon]

are there any top parsed rogues with kill pov videos ?

[ebon notch]

jpc has his sylvanas kill video on his yt channel

but nobody with regular kill video uploads

[quaint carbon]

yeahh cant seem to find much mores, i guess i'll ttv vod

[red plaza]

Rank 26 assassination rogue kill https://youtu.be/rauLy3SwtvM

[ebon notch]

holy shit what the hell

whaat was that opener

[ebon notch]

is this your video?

holy shit he has actually insane gear

252 phial/guardian trinket

just missing sylv dagger

[quaint carbon]

Not my level but cool vid yeah. The type I’m looking for. Thanks

[lavish grove]

How do you turn off floating dmg text? Console command?

[scenic sapphire]

--> /console floatingCombatTextCombatDamage 0

[sand sigil]

it's kinda funny cuz most kill vids are from early so it's not really abt parses but then ppl wanna see top parse kill vid but it doesn't really make too much sense cuz the ppl with the top parses usually killed it back when they had less gear and the parses were irrelevant

like ksp doing 7.8k dam w 3rd was a great log, but if u didn't know any better ud see the parses today and think his damage was bad

[rotund drift]

do i want deeper stratagem with dashing?

feels like i never go under 50 energy

[hollow river]

Sim it

[rotund drift]

will do ty !

[hollow river]

Usually no, we go Blindside/Deeper for pure ST

And now MFD is actually good for some people

[rotund drift]

blindside > EB ? wow

[hollow river]

Just have to sim yourself and see. Just take into account EP/Vigor or EP/MFD are usually the pick in fights with adds

[vestal wren]

parses are just a bad metric tbh

[woeful cipher]

does playing with Zoldylck generally change stat weights? going to be running it for fatescribe p3 burn.. i assume its prob still just crit haste?

[hollow river]

Only for Guardian of the First Ones basically

[violet jackal]

trying to follow this was difficult, like i'm 1000% sure I can do the fight butwithout all the extra crap on the screen

[ebon notch]

you will end up having a lot of crap on the screen

because of the weakauras you need

[violet jackal]

i refuse

[hollow river]

[pure moth]

What was that person's opener. To much on screen to notice it

[violet jackal]

^

[shy dust]

A bad opener

[hollow river]

It was weird

[shy dust]

It was wrong*

[hollow river]

By how much tho

[shy dust]

No idea why he ruptured without using flag

[hollow river]

Only big difference I noticed was garrote came after rupture instead of right before it

Oh that’s weird

[ebon notch]

he not only ruptured without flag

he didnt do a 5cp rupture by just garroting at 4 cp

[hollow river]

Yeah I noticed that part

[ebon notch]

he ruptured, then garrotted

[hollow river]

Weirdge

[shy dust]

Yeah

[ebon notch]

then built up

then like

[shy dust]

Bad play

[ebon notch]

flagged

[shy dust]

It happens

[ebon notch]

then spent?

then shived

then vanished at 5cp

idk

[violet jackal]

[hollow river]

Vanish at 5 cp or at low cp is like margin of error shit isn’t it

[ebon notch]

its more like

how it was in relation to his shiv and flag

[hollow river]

Oh

[ebon notch]

also his garrote weakaura is super weird?

like he uses it and then it shows the cooldown instead of the buff duration on the enemy?

[hollow river]

It didn’t show pandemic

Yep

[violet jackal]

I think it does

it swaps between duration and pandemic

[ebon notch]

it shows the cooldown and then goes back to the buff duration

[hollow river]

Yeah that’s kinda weird

[violet jackal]

yea that is a nope for me

[hollow river]

But the fight WAs are definitely a must have

[violet jackal]

highly disagree

[ebon notch]

you dont think you need weakauras for mythic sylvanas?

[hollow river]

Well, good luck killing it

[sand sigil]

nope

definitely don't need the wa's

can vouch

[shy dust]

I mean there ain’t much really it’s needed for

You have an assigned soak

[sand sigil]

some are helpful but definitely not necessary

[shy dust]

No special mechanic you need a WA for

[sand sigil]

i kinda like the fixate icon like the p1 adds that's alright

[ebon notch]

the ones i use are the immune wekaura, the arrow timers and the fixate weakaura

[sand sigil]

but even that u have purple eyes over ur character so u can see it anyways

i use /say 321 arrow wa thing for p3. not really needed but i dig it

[sturdy mesa]

Hi james 😳

[ebon notch]

idk where i found it but this pack has literally every mechanic in the fight in it https://wago.io/JmVGYfdb9/25

like you could discard every weakaura and just have this and you'd be fine

its kinda insane

[hollow river]

I use vanilla wow UI, but fight WAs are really helpful

[fluid crystal]

Does someone have a log of the "ideal" opener on sylv. I am kinda just doing what feels right to me but after this convo I feel like it is wrong lmao. Or cam at least point me in the right direction of someone to look at.

[hollow river]

In a guild that’s still progressing the raid, you can tell where others a messing up easier and help them to understand

[ebon notch]

its just the normal ST opener

nothing changes cause its sylv

[quaint carbon]

It just feels laggy and weird

[ebon notch]

what does

[hollow river]

Mut, wait for the cp to show up, SnD, mut, garrote, flag, rupt

The lag between mut and SnD on heroic is hilarious

[ebon notch]

they largely fixed the lag on sylvanas now

we barely have anything

[hollow river]

Heroic is still usually rough idk

[violet jackal]

I never had the sylvannas lag can't relate

[fallen arch]

Not anymore

[quaint carbon]

Heroic feels laggy yea

[fallen arch]

My last couple of Sylv kills were aight

[hollow river]

I still get the lag

[ebon notch]

idk i kill sylv multiple times on heroic each week and its not been laggy at all

[hollow river]

Haven’t killed this week yet

[ebon notch]

theres a slight lag with a stacked 30 man group

but thats the same with any fight

[hollow river]

Idk might just be me at this point

[violet jackal]

my biggest visual issues in this raid though are when there is 20+ ground effects on sylvannas at the same time, and spear of basion in the phylactery

[hollow river]

Daps are you still progging sylv?

[ebon notch]

the worst was soulrender

[ebon notch]

yeah

we kill today

she dies or we die

[hollow river]

Good luck king

[ebon notch]

i wish i could stream

but im on mobile internet

;-;

[hollow river]

Wowzers

[ebon notch]

yeah we real gamers out here

[hollow river]

LOL

I use a 1030GT gpu bro

I feel the pain

We kill Fate this coming week ez, KT prob next Tuesday/Wednesday

[ebon notch]

yikes

[hollow river]

[ebon notch]

eventually the prices drop and you can pick up a 2000 series card

[hollow river]

I want a 3000

Either I stop waiting and get an AMD 6800xt, or I get on the waiting list for 3060/3070

[fallen arch]

Been teling myself that for a year

[hollow river]

Yep

[fallen arch]

You can buy 3070 now

It’s just insanely overpriced

Or at least in NL u can

[hollow river]

Where 👀

[gusty mirage]

Still waiting for my EVGA waitlist to email me

soon

[fallen arch]

1049 euro for a 3070. Can have it tomorrow

[hollow river]

You can get them for $750 usd here

[gusty mirage]

yeah if you can find one in store

[hollow river]

If you trust eBay

[gusty mirage]

$750 for just the box

[fallen arch]

What I said, u can get them on demand now

[gusty mirage]

[fallen arch]

But for like msrp +400

Makes me wanna cry

[hollow river]

Idk amd 6800xt’s are in stock at stores

Can’t be much different than a 3070

[fallen arch]

But same issues right, prices through the roof?

[grand ridge]

yes

[hollow river]

$800 usd

[grand ridge]

I got my 3080 for 1200 bucks

[fallen arch]

Thats a bargain atm

[grand ridge]

even with my 980ti though I did not lag on that fight so thats weird

maybe it depends on how hard you are taxing your gpu with settings

I prefer a smooth experience over a better looking one

[hollow river]

I keep my settings at like 4/10

[grand ridge]

so even with the 980 ti, at worst the fps would just dip

[hollow river]

I also have dc issues sometimes and idk why

Idk if it’s my internet or what

[fallen arch]

With a 3080 tho, you should be able to max it out I assume?

And still have a smooth experience

[grand ridge]

yeah with the 3080 I have not experienced it either

and I can turn everything up all the way and set the resolution scaling a bit over my monitor resolution and it still runs fine

maybe it would happen more with larger raid sizes

my group usually has at or under like 15 people

but you can have twice that in heroic

idk

[lavish grove]

which rogue spec is best for windfury group?

[hollow river]

sub

check pins in #wow-general

[ebon notch]

bro sylvanas

parries

fucking perma

[hollow river]

yep

[ebon notch]

i also vendetta'd a random add at the beginning of p2

thank god we wiped

[hollow river]

so hard to tell which way shes turned too

lmao

feelsbadman

[ebon notch]

ok nvm we may not kill it tonight

some real special shit happening today

[royal lantern]

hot trick of the day:

dont stand on the tank

👋 🚪

[ebon notch]

any other nuggets of wisdom?

[slow marsh]

Please teach me your ways

[hollow river]

what's your guilds best pull?

[brazen zodiac]

godspeed brother

whoops wrong person

[ebon notch]

56% or smth

but we have giga tank issues

cause we have a prot warr

and its just not good

[drifting cloud]

uhhh

[hollow river]

why is prot warr not good

we run guardian+prot warr

[drifting cloud]

Player skill probably since p3 isnt easy for tank and heals

Ez blame it on spec instead

[hollow river]

ic

[ebon notch]

i mean

statistically prot warrior is heavily underrepresented

they just cant survive as well as brewmasters and guardians

although there is definitely a skill gap that makes it harder

40 prot warrs vs over 300 brewmaster monks

[hollow river]

have CE?

[ebon notch]

yh

its according to public logs but thats all we have

[lavish lichen]

Most of the time Tank meta has nothing to do with the strength of each tank

I would say that’s especially true right now considering how good the balancing is

Tank meta is almost always determined by the dps counterpart of the class

Warrior is fucking insane this tier

So you don’t see many warrior tanks

[royal lantern]

not dying is the best way to stay alive

[ebon notch]

https://i.imgur.com/vhuaGCn.png

LETS GOOOOO BOYS

[lavish lichen]

Ohh niceee

Grats!

[arctic walrus]

[ebon notch]

didnt have cloak up had to immune soak

also mage lusted early

so i had no cds up

it was gerat

[soft shale]

that krangled bl

kek

[hollow river]

gratz dood!

[ebon notch]

xoxo

[hollow river]

41 prot warriors have CE now

[oak sky]

Actually true

[brazen zodiac]

pog

[royal lantern]

gz man,i hope my tips helped

[ebon notch]

😠

[hollow river]

i hope our prot warr will join their ranks

[oak sky]

My guild has a prot warrior but i think hes playing bear on sylv

[honest vector]

Couple questions first is what’s the best daggers to have I have one heroic edge of night is it the best to try and get two? Next is what’s some good adding for rogue I have conRo now

[hollow river]

sim it

sim Droptimizer for dungeon loot and another sim for raid loot etc

[honest vector]

Oh ok thanks

[glass tulip]

@ebon notch its always the scuffed pulls like early lusts

[ebon notch]

;-;

we get it next time

[glass tulip]

get any drops?

[ebon notch]

ofc not

[glass tulip]

ofc lol

[ebon notch]

got one piece from heroic

thought id be a shoe-in

for sylv

[glass tulip]

I still have never personally looted a sylv item

like 7-8 kills

[north basin]

@ebon notch gz. number of pulls?

[ebon notch]

around 120?

[glass tulip]

ez clap

why dont you have any public mythic logs im tryna stalk :p

[ebon notch]

eh maybe since guild disbanded i can get them public

but i can link them here if theres a specific boss you need

[soft shale]

i enjoy getting 3 arrows

pog

kinda funny it died on that pull

[ebon notch]

true

[kind talon]

pog

[kind talon]

can you show us your painsmith

[ebon notch]

😠

[proper tapir]

Wait, why would you garrote for a 5cp rupture outside of flag? Wouldn't you rather 4cp rupture then garrote after to start building for the envenom?

[hollow river]

No

[proper tapir]

Where is the dps loss with that? 4cp vs 5cp rupture is the same.

[hollow river]

Sure but you have to refresh sooner

You flag before rupture in opener. So you garrote before as well for a 5 cp rupture going into your flag stacks

[ebon notch]

you would garrote at 4 cp, then at 5 cp flag then rupture

then you vendetta shiv

vanish

mut mut envenom

mfd envenom

[hollow river]

Yep

[proper tapir]

Yeah see you are talking specifically about working towards a flag cp pool. I agree in that case. Outside of flag you wouldn't do that. I got you

[hollow river]

Outside of flag you can still do that, yes

I don’t think it’s a loss or a gain to specifically do either but I don’t see why you wouldn’t 5 cp rupture

If they’re both in pandemic window, obviously

[proper tapir]

Oh I see, I think that's considered forcing 5cp, rather than going max-1. Idk about the difference but the guides said not to do that. Thanks mate!

[hollow river]

Afaik, forcing 5cp with mut or garr(that’s not in pandemic) is bad. Yes.

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[errant swallow]

What's pandemic window for hemo/rupture (5cp). Is it 5s/7s? Thanks.

[drifting cloud]

!pandemic

[prisma monolith]

Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs

[plain thistle]

5cp rupture is 7.2s

[errant swallow]

Ilu

[elder crescent]

Does Internal Bleeding work as a bleed for doomblade? For a possible 4 bleeds on a target for 20% damage to envenom?

[arctic walrus]

Is 20% of an envenom worth as much as a whole envenom you think?

[soft shale]

yes and it also gives energy

i think its more for pvp i think

although on m+ i would always play iron wire or prey

[oak sky]

i used it on KT as well

helps if you need to cc an add

[gusty mirage]

IB is fine in dungeons that have a prio target that would be stunned. "Always" is a pretty definite statement

[soft shale]

prey is better than ib if it can get stunned

[gusty mirage]

How

[soft shale]

because you play with other people

10k dmg and maybe a little bit of energy< 4 people

[gusty mirage]

????

[soft shale]

prey is 10% extra damage taken from all sources

[gusty mirage]

Okay man lol

[slow marsh]

Prey technically is more group dps but IB works with venemous wounds so more energy

[soft shale]

i mean its not like ib is horrible just less dmg

[slow marsh]

It is but more energy is also dmg so prolly balances out

[gusty mirage]

It's not even a "bad" choice in some dungeons. Which makes your "always prey or wire" kind of misleading

[slow marsh]

Also yeah IB is a bleed for zold or doom

[gusty mirage]

especially for a utility talent row that's essentially irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

[slow marsh]

True I always take IB for raid cuz out of all three it has higher dps potential

But last time I played sin in a key it was a 19 mists and the whole time I kind of regretted not going outlaw ngl

[gusty mirage]

[slow marsh]

I still topped and beat monk don't worry

[gusty mirage]

always making us proud

[slow marsh]

It was a combo of only having a 235 zold + not having gouge for triple interrupt that felt off.

But ye I'm working on my 262 obed and I'll do more sin keys

[slow marsh]

[gusty mirage]

gouge for all 3 specs when

[slow marsh]

Ikr

By the looks of it now though unless they end up doing something with BF sin looking kinda nasty for 9.1.5

[oak sky]

Iron wire goes hard

[nova flax]

Ik its a utility row but wire is def the play in all mythic+ situations

The 6 second silece plus the damage reduction on 3 targets or 6 with vanish? Invaluable.

Prey/bleeding pale in comparison to iron wire because chances are u arent using kidney shot on the prio target anyways. Ur using kidney to stop an ability

[toxic locust]

i can't believe they didn't unprune gouge

oh well

[nova flax]

Sin has garrote silences. Outlaw has gouge. Sub has a boring 2 button rotation that does more damage than the other 2 specs

Every spec gets something :). Balance.

[full tendon]

Sub has two shadowsteps, and dance gives them the ability to cheap shot, which has no CD, iirc?

[hollow river]

Yeah subs can get off like 8 Cheap Shots and stun every mob of you want to, at the cost of a bunch of damage obv but it can save your ass in a pinch

Also can save vanish for defensive uses and cheap shot since it gains the least dps from vanish compared to the other two specs.

[nova flax]

Ye there have been multiple occasions where ive cheaped like 4 or 5 times in a dance to save my tank. All the damage in the world wont matter if ur tank dies on a 27

[hollow river]

Yep

[balmy condor]

I’ve cheap shotted 4-5 times in dance and then had the mob stun DR and we got boned

I’m doing my part

[hollow river]

Lool

[nova flax]

There is more than 1 mob in a trash pack

Why stun DR just one mob when u can DR the whole pack

That way when he calls for leg sweep nothin gets swept and he hits the floor

[hollow river]

[soft shale]

people not tracking common drs is really funny sometimes

also tanks saying the boss is immune to taunt

[balmy condor]

Tank: “Leg sweep”
Monk: “It’s all DR’d”
Rogue who DR’d the whole pack: “man really shouldn’t have taken a prot warrior”

[hollow river]

[hollow river]

I’m honestly quite bad with stuns in m+

Just use them as interrupts if I need to clutch

[lean coral]

i did this on our kill man

i was so sad

[ebon notch]

noooo

shouldve inted

forced a wipe

[lean coral]

it was like 4th pull of the night

honestly didnt expect kill that fast

[ebon notch]

yeah i felt off all evening

really wasnt a pumper kinda evening

[obtuse robin]

vit - yea i have like 20 fps on bosses but i dont think more fps would help - 2021

[vestal wren]

20 fps is playable to be fair, its not a pleasant experience tho

[brazen zodiac]

thank u fuu

[obtuse robin]

playing at 60 plus fps would give her the gameplay she wants

but she says no

[brazen zodiac]

i dont say no

[kind talon]

20 fps constant is fucked

[brazen zodiac]

i just dont think my laptops the issue

is all

[kind talon]

20 fps on pull is ok

because u can still input

and do generally the correct rotation

[oak sky]

issue with what?

[kind talon]

just really hard to react to like

[brazen zodiac]

just tryna get better at the spec

[kind talon]

seal fate cp

[oak sky]

yeah

[brazen zodiac]

not sure what else i can do to pump

[kind talon]

whats ur constant fps in raid @brazen zodiac

[brazen zodiac]

i havent checked

and not sure how to

[kind talon]

uh

[brazen zodiac]

but next time i check ill let u know

[kind talon]

do u

[brazen zodiac]

i dont lag or anything so

its not all that bad

[oak sky]

stuff like equipment doesn't help you improve it usually just makes stuff easier

[kind talon]

turn off your laptop

every day?

[brazen zodiac]

no

[kind talon]

you should

turn it off and on regularly

keeping computer on perma leads to performance issues

happened with mine kept it on for month or 2 and

[brazen zodiac]

it self turns off

[kind talon]

gameplay was shit

[brazen zodiac]

ah

[obtuse robin]

better setup will 100 % help u improve

[oak sky]

thats a huge lie

but sure

[obtuse robin]

wat

lol

[kind talon]

bruh

i dont have a mousepad

and i get

rank 2

[oak sky]

a better setup only really helps you play better when you are already capped out on skill

theres plenty of stuff to worry about before setup

[brazen zodiac]

LOL

whats ur secret decaf

log review me brother 🙏

[kind talon]

its comfort

[oak sky]

hes good at the game

thats the only secret you need

[kind talon]

has nothing to do with setup just u being comfortable with keyboard and mouse

[brazen zodiac]

im trying to see if pooling is like

kinda onething i need to fix

one thing*

[kind talon]

fuck pooling

lol

[brazen zodiac]

idk im def not keeping

eveeonmoiemk buff pp