And Assassination "PvE spec"
#assassination
sonic schooner
But u know sub is a pvp spec and also downtime ya know .... okok I'm joking don't hit me too hard D:
fleet anchor
It's silly but that's how it's been for quite a while
shy dust
even a head TC believes assa is the only viable raid spec
shy dust
dark days for sub
gloomy knoll
if you're a pve player you only ever get to play sin
sin has been the meta raid spec
for every fucking tier i've played this game
damn near
hollow river
sin is gonna be the new pvp spec 9.1
fleet anchor
Sub hasn't survived the first Mythic tuning week of a raid other than ToS in like... 3 xpacs now? 🤣
gloomy knoll
it's so god damn boring
like i shouldn't have to reroll classes to try something new
in pve
that's just awful
balmy condor
even a head TC believes assa is the only viable raid spec
makes me mad that things are how they are
I wanna play sub too man
I'm gonna say it
sand plume
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
I miss wod
sonic schooner
Can't tell I left early in mop and came back for shadowland. I don't really know a single shit between those xpac
sonic schooner
If I miss something for rogue It would be combat rogue
gloomy knoll
is the best possible world
for a rogue
sure you only get to play venthyr if you want to be hyper optimal
but you have a great build for sin
a great build for sub
you can one trick either of them with great success
or play both and have
great sin cleave and slightly better sub st
untold verge
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
gloomy knoll
i could literally not ask for a better outcome
going into a raid
and i would gladly nuke all 3 other covenants
to do so
sudden shell
and you play diff soulbinds in venthyr too
sudden shell
so no conduit energy problems either 
gloomy knoll
like it's literally so great
sonic schooner
Energy conduit in 9.1 early days will hurts I guess
gloomy knoll
and people are upset
sonic schooner
Tbh I don't understand why ppl are mad. Just go venthyr if you are mad that they sims better
sonic schooner
It's hecky 5am I should sleep on day. Babaiii cuties 
tame lake
main blaze
And then Antorus Assn beat sub with PB only damage lol
sand plume
!ambush
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
regal path
is it worth dotting up remornia right before p3 on mythic sire or does she go immune or something
humble ginkgo
I dont think it does anything
bc she wont take dmg but she could give you energy
no clue
regal path
gloomy knoll
it does damage
fleet anchor
even a head TC believes assa is the only viable raid spec
What do you mean by this anyway?
gloomy knoll
in my logs i've had remornia damage in p3
strange python
Bro what
strange python
Why is this a real conversation that exists
Why is sub not allowed to exist i dont understand
fleet anchor
in my logs i've had remornia damage in p3
They hotfixed it like halfway through the patch cycle
gloomy knoll
my last log has remornia damage in p3 tho
fleet anchor
I mean they maybe broke something clearing hotfixes for 9.1 tomorrow if it's recently, because for most of 9.0.5 it stopped working
When they fixed the "Remornia stays in combat" bug
main blaze
Mine from last week has everything stop damage on remornia p3
fleet anchor
Because it was DoTs that were doing it
gloomy knoll
interesting
regal path
yarp
sand plume
I don't think I saw in the pins unless i'm blind, but what piece does venth lego go on?
strange python
Cloak
sand plume
?
strange python
Well ig a head tc doesn’t like it being this powerful
So its just going to get nuked
sand plume
that would make my decision easier cause I already swapped necro lol
but planning on waiting for mythic week before swapping to venth
civic trellis
im still thinking on this
would a 33% more of dots still be justificable?
from 215 instant dots to 310
reef axle
So switch tonight to venthyr or to wait 🤔
viscid spear
20 Renown 
thorny pond
So switch tonight to venthyr or to wait 🤔
At least do the quest if you were them already
reef axle
Yeah will be returning if i choose so, so should have 40 renown if I rejoin them
thorny pond
Yea you retain everything
Anima and renown
but remember you have to grind out that 100% bar twice
so if you haven't done the first one, do it tonight
balmy condor
from 215 instant dots to 310
nop
steel bane
Does the second quest have an expiration date? Or I can turn it in whenever I please?
civic trellis
Koji is having a look at it, thanks 🙂
viscid spear
Ret Pally killed me while I was doing a Swelling Tear in Bastion
thorny pond
Does the second quest have an expiration date? Or I can turn it in whenever I pl...
farm it to 100 and prime to turn in is what most of us do
I am venth and have necro caught up so all I have to do is turn it in if I so desire
thorny pond
I was venth before the obi sims came out
thorny pond
I ripped 5 226 IQDs in a row, sorry bud
thorny pond
It got spent on mana for a shapeshifting druid most of the time, so it's totally not worth
damn son
may the lords bless all of us with max level phial first vault
steel bane
amem
versed mica
Wait, obi is getting nerfed?
versed mica
Well ig a head tc doesn’t like it being this powerful
Referring to this comment
strange python
Ig koji doesn’t believe that obedience as a covenant legendary has the right to be strong
versed mica
Why does he care
thorny pond
Blizzard obviously doesn't care since the evidence is so strong they'll let it ride for an entire tier
we're pretty close in 3/4 which is better than most specs
fleet anchor
Why does he care
I mean, I will give honest feedback on things in beta/PTR as a theorycrafter and it's clear to anyone who looks at this that it is an outlier.
People can take advantage of it all they want when it goes live, but it's not like I'm gonna be like "yeah yeah this legendary is perfectly tuned, gj!"
😛
thorny pond
Sure, but there's always something stupid. Used to be trinkets, RORO, Draught etc
Now it's leggos
fleet anchor
It was basically massively buffed like 2 days ago via a bugfix and it may not have been obvious to people how broken it would be
If you had asked me before that change it would have probably been within mostly acceptable levels
loud light
rogue legos have been intentionally tuned to a certain level for the most part and this one is way higher, so in the context of rogue yes this is an outlier. in the game as a whole, there are of course other classes that have things way out there. I'm willing to bet the latter is not what they're aiming for though.
strange python
Yea ig this isn’t some like
thorny pond
At this point one strong outlier is good for the short-term anyways to get people excited to play underrepresented specs
strange python
Joke
fleet anchor
That's not really how balance works
viscid spear
Trust no one, especially yourself
fleet anchor
If Rogues are doing more damage than Blizzard wants them to they will nerf them via the class aura (worst case) or nerf the legendary
Ultimately Blizzard controls how much damage specs do
And it's very easy for them to change
In seconds
thorny pond
You're correct, and it's usually misplaced and heavy handed
fleet anchor
"Blade in the Shadows is OP it's fine, other specs have OP Azerite traits" didn't really stop BitS and thus Sub Rogues from getting nerfed heavily in Uldir via hotfixes, for example
thorny pond
Just for once I ~hope~ they let it slide in lieu of no raid utility this patch
fleet anchor
Relying on outlier tuning and pointing to other broken specs isn't really some fool-proof method of staying tuned properly
simple wadi
this feels like that conversation where mom/dad explain why you can't have fast food every night
fleet anchor
Big shocker, Mages have something outlier. Welcome to 2004 🤣
Mages and Warlocks operate on their own rules, always have done
thorny pond
I feel ya Koji, I just think the overall sentiment in here lately is "When do we get ours?"
fleet anchor
I mean look at Hunters right now
strange python
He wants to preemptively get it taken care of or something
fleet anchor
Now they are all doom and gloom that they are gonna be crap next tier
shy dust
we have raid utility to make up for damage
fleet anchor
Because their OP shit got nerfed
Hard to argue when something clearly OP gets nerfed because it's OP
Then you just end up where the chips land
Better to do it in PTR 😛
strange python
But their op thing was a bug no?
fleet anchor
It was partially a bug yes
thorny pond
Even if the OP shit gets nerfed, so long as they don't bust something else, we are still ok with DB/Finality/OL shit
fleet anchor
And partially it was always OP
And again, I would feel less strongly about this if it wasn't Covenant-specific
thorny pond
Like pre-obi hype, this discord was still hopping and feeling good about 9.1 for the state of our specs
fleet anchor
Rogue DPS should be strong regardless, we got buffed out the ass in 9.0.5 and that should be holding pretty steady 😛
primal quail
feel like it was hype because of how shit all 3 specs were in nathria
strange python
Lol what about people that want to play sub
primal quail
rogues are at least good now even without obedience
strange python
And finally had access to a legendary that isn’t
thorny pond
Right, so if we get this we're to the moon. So it's fun hype. Hopefully they let it slide or don't buster it
primal quail
but yeah idk
strange python
Complete utter fucking garbage
primal quail
personally like it because it lets you trispec
oak sky
I mean yeah both assa and sub were looking good before obi, i think i remember seeing crazy dam with finality in 9.1
strange python
I mean yeah both assa and sub were looking good before obi, i think i remember s...
Finality is shit
primal quail
cant stand being locked in 1 covenant/spec with the need to craft like 7 legendaries
oak sky
I swear i saw some m+ keys with finality
strange python
Why does sub have to be some like
Red headed step child when it comes to raid
Actual non shit legendary for once
oak sky
I was just saying sub is at least a step up from being bad at like everything
strange python
And just because its tied to a covenant an individual tc wants it shot down lol
oak sky
I dont think its that simple
fleet anchor
You realize Sub is simming within like 100 DPS of Assassination even without Obedience right?
oak sky
With akaari correct?
strange python
I mean thats almost never good enough though right? Sub will always be worse than assa even at equal dps
Downtime etc etc
fleet anchor
Also like, you're really on the wrong train here. Most the TCers in the Rogue community are total Sub fans. 😛
oak sky
D word
Sub is still better in some scenarios even then though right?
Like funnel or burst
strange python
Well if its just worse ST
Then no lmao
You’d maybe play it for like
KT phylactery
But your rl will just have you go assa and call it a day
fleet anchor
Like silly to imply that I'm somehow anti-Sub when I played Sub all prepatch and for the first 2-3 weeks of the raid until it wasn't keeping up. I'm probably the most spec-agnostic CF here lol
shadow pivot
Any fast kill target switch Sub outshines assa too
Council attendants
stuff like that
fleet anchor
I play whenever Rogue spec is best for a given fight
steel bane
if they nerf obedience, please do it fast.. don't sandbag
sudden brook
Hopefully some aura buffs come with obe nerfs for being v overtuned xd
strange python
Idk i and many others were excited to play a lege that feels fun and alters the gameplay
Because finality is shit
Akaari is shit
fleet anchor
I mean... Obedience doesn't alter gameplay any more than Flag already does
It's literally just slapping Vers on it 🤣
oak sky
I play sin but i was definitely excited to play some sub this tier
strange python
Wdym lol it turns sub into a 1 min spec
fleet anchor
It doesn't change gameplay at all though
You do the same rotation either way
Just because it's strong and syncs with CDs doesn't make it rotation-changing
strange python
I guess we have a different idea of changing gameplay
fleet anchor
Obedience will have to be nerfed at some point in the future either way
It has a built-in feedback loop that will be OP at some point, now or in the future
sudden brook
Obedience kills dreadblades for outlaw which is a huge issue for me personally
thorny pond
Literally kills you
fleet anchor
Obedience+ES is actually impossible to balance long-term
umbral rapids
ES?
umbral rapids
Oh ok
thorny pond
Tfw no pocket healer so I can dreadblade myself
arctic walrus
@sudden brook drop down a channel bud, not your place
sudden brook
Im just here for the heat
fleet anchor
Normally it wouldn't matter for Assassination to talk about Sub stuff, but when we're talking about shared mechanics it comes into play because it's almost inevitable that a nerf will come
arctic walrus
sudden brook
It was getting toasty in here
fleet anchor
Obedience design is neat but super dangerous
sudden brook
Yeh I'd rather obe get nerfed than "Sub aura nerf"
fleet anchor
That's my "professional" opinion from a TC perspective
If it goes live and Blizzard doesn't care
Everyone, including me, will swap and use it for prog
All good 😛
sudden brook
If obe gets nerfed u better be getting sub compensation buffs in that package deal
civic trellis
It doesn't change gameplay at all though
Well i still dont understand how triple dance is not a gain
which would change the gameplay a bit
sudden brook
Or jhst buff all 3 specs for it
thorny pond
If obe gets nerfed u better be getting sub compensation buffs in that package de...
Ha
strange python
What other professional opinions do you share with blizzard
Perhaps a sub rework in 9.2
Multiple talents or something
fleet anchor
Fuu and Mystler probably have far more interesting opinions about it than I do 😛
strange python
Theres also like
Mikanikos the really broken kyrian tree
Thats a covenant thing
fleet anchor
They literally did an interview about it like a week ago?
I mean all the TCers across the board on all specs have pointed out how Mikanikos is busted lol
That's no secret
They've hotfixed Bron like 10 times in the last week
shy dust
@sudden brook 🤨
strange python
I just don’t know if mystler whispyr and fuu have a direct line with blizzard
sudden brook
I've said it's overtuned
strange python
Think you could have more influence with that
sudden brook
I just don't care, because the real broken specs seem to not care for kyrian
fleet anchor
All of our feedback is public and Blizzard browses our channels so it really doesn't matter too much if we send stuff private or not tbh
We've always had very transparent TC work in Ravenholdt
pallid panther
is bloodmallet 60 renown sims complete bogus?
fleet anchor
No idea what the state of things there is
Everything in flux getting ready for 9.1 build so I wouldn't jump on anything quite yet
oak sky
Dont people in the class discords have tons of ideas on how to make their classes better and more interesting
lone wren
so guys i need your opinion. I have never been Venthyr on my rogue, so i can instantly switch to it, in that case should i wait and see how this plays out or go ahead and switch tonight before patch goes live? I'm currently necrolord
oak sky
It makes me wonder how stuff like survival hunter is left out in the cold so long if blizz looks
gusty mirage
so guys i need your opinion. I have never been Venthyr on my rogue, so i can ins...
1-40 will have increased catch up, so feel free to chill if you're unsure of switching
lone wren
1-40 will have increased catch up, so feel free to chill if you're unsure of swi...
thank you
umbral rapids
@balmy condor the heirmir gemstone build in the pins is with doomblade right ?
idle shard
What is that famous quest u talking about?
gusty mirage
<@167090536602140682> the heirmir gemstone build in the pins is with doomblade r...
for ST yes
viscid spear
1-40 will have increased catch up, so feel free to chill if you're unsure of swi...
I'm at 22 right now, should I just call it a night and focus on it over the next week?
umbral rapids
for ST yes
Thanks oxi.
gusty mirage
I'm at 22 right now, should I just call it a night and focus on it over the next...
sometimes the rng gets you, and you feel hard stuck. If you got nothing else to do and aren't tired feel free to continue grinding
north basin
Whats up with obedience being so talked about lately, whats super stronk about it? Explain like iam 5 plz.
spice spire
Whats up with obedience being so talked about lately, whats super stronk about i...
It make big dam
viscid spear
sometimes the rng gets you, and you feel hard stuck. If you got nothing else to ...
It's almost 1 in the morning here 
reef axle
im hoping it wont be nerfed but i have a feeling it will be, my concern is, we chose necro for the 2 target cleave, so how is obedience trumping that hypothesis?
north basin
Its giving about 25% vers for every flag usage? And more frequently?
reef axle
hmmm so venth will beat necros cleave due to vers gain?
strange python
What changed with obe? I thought it was bad
cerulean nest
are we talking about sub + obe this whole time or sin? i'm lost lol
paper cairn
I don't remember ever seeing obe being bad, maybe overshadowed by the potential of necro legendary being great in M+ until the nerf, think of it as a sleeper legendary
strange python
Obe sin was bad as of four days ago from whispyrs early sims
So bad it wasn't even showing up on the list of possible options
weak bane
I think the vers wasn't persisting after the generation or something
umbral rapids
^
weak bane
So you were missing out on most of the gain
It seems quite fun now, hoping it doesn't get nerfed before release:)
gusty mirage
Obe sin was *bad* as of four days ago from whispyrs early sims
optimizations to the apl + the sims reflected the 24s of vers
strange python
Got it
It looks like it's huge percentage gain, but still smaller than many classes had in 9.0. Who knows
paper cairn
we kept quiet so it was too late for blizz to nerf it before release 
strange python
Current sub obe is giving almost 12% per the Sims. Which is what akaaris did before blizzard took it out back and shot it, but left boomies, dks, and mages alone.
modern heart
gusty mirage
tbf akaari's was doing like 40% of sub's damage before it got nerfed
final star
I've said it before and I'm going to say it again
The percentage increase the legendary gives is completely irrelevant
What matters is the outcome
If it gets nerfed it's because it puts our dps too high, not because it's a 10% increase
strange python
tbf akaari's was doing like 40% of sub's damage before it got nerfed
It got many rounds of nerfs. Before the final nerf it was closer to 12%
final star
Comparatively you've got half the specs in the game having a single viable legendary that increases their dps by 12-20%
That have never received a single nerf even going in to 9.1
They don't nerf on percentage increases.
civic trellis
It may be because rogues were op in bfa, or at least that's what i heard
strange python
Blizz' stated reason for akaaris final nerf, I'm almost positive, was "we want legendaries to be about 5%"
umbral rapids
No?
civic trellis
So people whined a lot, or idk
fleet anchor
we kept quiet so it was too late for blizz to nerf it before release <:ez:587982...
Vers was never on the persist buff on PTR until the "final" release candidate build a few days ago.
Sims weren't wrong, it's literally how it worked all of PTR
umbral rapids
Vers was never on the persist buff on PTR until the "final" release candidate bu...
Oh. What.
final star
People will whine based on any class being strong lol
umbral rapids
It was worded like it was sims
civic trellis
People will whine based on any class being strong lol
But especially vs rogues
Or at least i have that feeling
final star
Not particularly
fleet anchor
Vers was only present on the ramping buff portion until the build on Wed or Thursday iirc
final star
Maybe it's because you're a rogue
shadow pivot
especially vs classes that has been meta for a long time id say
civic trellis
😄 nah
final star
Warlock/mage are god classes
civic trellis
I was thinking in pvp, 2s
civic trellis
People used to cry a lot at the begining (which i understands)
But i remember that, even in wotlk times, shadowdance and ambush was being nerfed every patch
frequently i mean, not exactly every patch 😛
final star
You mean they nerfed over performing specs 
dusk basalt
hey with 9.1 tomorrow, does any of the gear come out? e.g. dungeon ilvl upgrades? or is it just the big new dungeon
final star
Big dungeon isn't til next week
gusty mirage
hey with 9.1 tomorrow, does any of the gear come out? e.g. dungeon ilvl upgrades...
Korthia gear does, ilvl doesn't change until the season starts
civic trellis
Wasnt really overperforming, it was just... very good with some classes. They would nerf hpala/warr too but.. it aint happening so far 😛
dusk basalt
oh man so there's not really much new stuff to do tomorrow?
final star
So it was over performing
civic trellis
Kothia?
final star
red plaza
Korthia dailies weeklies assaults and layer 9 of Torghast is about it
cerulean nest
oh man so there's not really much new stuff to do tomorrow?
I guess now that we're all sprinting towards venthyr lol you can do that
civic trellis
Kothia has a lot of good stuff
dusk basalt
necro is good for assassination isnt it
gusty mirage
necro is good for assassination isnt it
yes
civic trellis
So it was over performing
Well it depends of what you mean with that, but it could be yep 😛
umbral rapids
On 2/3 targets you just keep garrote or rupture up?
gusty mirage
On 2/3 targets you just keep garrote or rupture up?
You'd maintain garrote on your prio target and spread ruptures
for your own sanity purposes
civic trellis
On two targets yeah, on three use garrote in cd, you will always miss 1t with garrote
woeful juniper
dude garrote evrything
civic trellis
since dot is 18 secs and garrote cd 6 sec
junior patrol
Hey guys what do you think? Will be assa the to go specc for ST? It seems that Sub will be slightly stronger?
I think this will be only on paper i guess? Realistically viewed assa will be stronger for a non patchwork boss (personally estimation)
woeful juniper
both will be fine. the idea that there will be crazy amounts of downtime is stupid
umbral rapids
You'd maintain garrote on your prio target and spread ruptures
I was thinking of boss fight like the nina where you play 2 targets for a while
Nine
gusty mirage
oh I don't know anything about the new raid, I've watched literally zero streams on it
woeful juniper
you keep all dots up on both
woeful juniper
plaguefsll awaits us all
void pecan
Man. That makes me mega sad.
pallid panther
can't wait to sit in pf
gusty mirage
it be that way sometimes
woeful juniper
atleast pf also drops a dagger
junior patrol
both will be fine. the idea that there will be crazy amounts of downtime is stup...
But sub rogue is dependent on uptime for cd reduction
umbral rapids
oh I don't know anything about the new raid, I've watched literally zero streams...
it's just 2T then 1T
you know what
gusty mirage
But sub rogue is dependent on uptime for cd reduction
And assassination rogue is dependent on uptime to apply bleeds for energy regen
prisma monolithBOT
woeful juniper
yes and on every fight except maybe roh kalo you will be fine regarding uptime
gusty mirage
There's a simple solution: if you guys don't want to play sub.... just don't
If you'll play sub like shit, it doesn't matter if sub sims 5000 dps higher
marble hemlock
Can't type on discord between gcds as sub
woeful juniper
just play what you want all 3 rogue specs are fine for every difficulty unless you want to push world rankings and min max the shit out of the game
umbral rapids
@gusty mirage correct me if i'm wrong, you just keep rup and gar up, CT if talented and just do single target rotation?
how did you like expedient ?
lol
gusty mirage
<@!192059095279337473> correct me if i'm wrong, you just keep rup and gar up, CT...
Yeah you'd maintain bleeds and then ST rotation before you have to reapply them
umbral rapids
Yeah you'd maintain bleeds and then ST rotation before you have to reapply them
this is a lot easier than i thought it was gonna be
gusty mirage
Yep, sin just seems overwhelming if you've never done dot management before
but it's really easy
get a good nameplate addon & profile to track bleeds and you're on your way to performing just fine
umbral rapids
wdym i play necro outlaw i manage sbs all the time
yeah my plates are fine i just had no clue what the rotation is if you add one target
woeful juniper
standart elv ui plates 
gusty mirage
yeah it's the same shit, just tack on maintaining rupture and garrote
on the 2nd target
woeful juniper
are the best anyways
umbral rapids
yeah it's the same shit, just tack on maintaining rupture and garrote
sounds good
probably CT right ?
gusty mirage
yeah if you're specced into CT you should maintain the dot outside of shiv windows
umbral rapids
i assume you talent it always if you have more than one target
though i believe i've seen logs of it used on ST that are... confusing
gusty mirage
I assume you're talking about sire?
umbral rapids
i kinda get it on sire just because of movement
woeful juniper
early on people went pb for p3 dmg over CT I think
its rather random tho with all the boss movement
just play CT on sire
gusty mirage
it's also important to see how many externals (PI) top logs got before looking into them too closely
umbral rapids
yeah fair
woeful juniper
most rog dont get pi on sire
umbral rapids
all the top logs do
woeful juniper
naaah
umbral rapids
7 PI fights go brr
shadow pivot
Also check out those pesky Necrolord warrior banners that does not show up yet on the buff on wclogs yet (unless it changed since the last time i checked) are pumping numbers up
gusty mirage
Top sin parse on sire got 4 PIs
so
it does happen
whether they pay for it or whatever
woeful juniper
ofc it does but the majority dont get pi
sharp panther
then there’s that one warrior who got 14 pis lol
umbral rapids
whatever
gusty mirage
for sure
Just important to point out to keep an eye out for PIs when looking at top logs
umbral rapids
not bad
woeful juniper
chinese are gonna do chinese things and oi on guy 20 times
sharp panther
er actually that was slg but still
was looking at top parses and 26 total buffs - 14 pis just blew my mind
gusty mirage
jesus
sharp panther
yeah that lol
fallen arch
Yeah and that’s all it is
sharp panther
wasn’t trying to glean any info lol
midnight marlin
in an m+ pull you should apply 4 garottes with subterfuge then CT then FoK -> rupture -> FoK -> rupture 4 times and then go back to CTs? Is that correct?
fallen arch
Only maintain CT
midnight marlin
okay so one CT every 10 seconds or so?
otherwise you are just applying garottes and ruptures?
fallen arch
Use it on max cp -1
nimble tartan
i only look at pi logs when i research a fight in order to see what the top players do with all that power its hard to play with all that haste
fallen arch
Yeah for the rest you maintain about 5 bleeds and spam fok
umbral rapids
@gusty mirage would you play subterfuge on 2 targets ? 
gusty mirage
<@!192059095279337473> would you play subterfuge on 2 targets ? <a:PepeSus:60080...
in raid? Probably not
fallen arch
And slap sbs on as many targets as you can
gusty mirage
Yeah for the rest you maintain about 5 bleeds and spam fok
you spread ruptures in aoe
don't stop at 5
gusty mirage
depends on what covenant you are
midnight marlin
venth
gusty mirage
you'd FoK as a generator at 4+
otherwise you do it the old fashioned way with mutilate
midnight marlin
if you only get 1 CP do you still apply or should you go for more FoKs before applying?
fallen arch
More fok
woeful juniper
low cp ruptures can be worth it
midnight marlin
about halfway through the pull is that when you vendetta, flag, and vanish to reapply garottes?
woeful juniper
its kinda weird
midnight marlin
or should you vendetta and flag on pull?
fallen arch
Doesn’t really matter as long as you get the full value out of vendetta
gusty mirage
vendetta + flag the priority target that needs to die
civic trellis
i didnt know you can use 4 cp ruptures and CT
gusty mirage
CD management is kinda up in the air, because it depends on how your group goes about the dungeon
fallen arch
Yes
gusty mirage
also in AoE you just send shiv on cooldown, unless you need to hold it to sooth or whatever
civic trellis
(that's with deeper strat)
fallen arch
Oh then no
woeful juniper
uhm with strat 5-6
fallen arch
I don’t think you wanna use ds tho in dungeons
civic trellis
i am thinking in a raid boss with 3t
hollow river
He said cleave
civic trellis
😛
hollow river
That’s odd
hollow river
The general rule is finish at max or max-1
woeful juniper
tbh just from how it feels on 4+ targets i would finish on 4 cp
might be wrong tho
gusty mirage
Just finish at max-1 or max if you win the CP lotto as a general rule
olive night
gusty mirage
yeah sniping low HP mobs with low CP rupture can be a gain
hollow river
I tend to just spread 3cp rupts from the get go
civic trellis
Its risky tho
hollow river
For tiny health mobs
civic trellis
Its gain if you wont overcap energy
woeful juniper
just play sub or pirate in keys
hollow river
Definitely giving sub a go starting tomorrow
hollow river
Gonna craft finality
civic trellis
(unless you dont have dances up :D)
hollow river
Show off
civic trellis
😄
hollow river
They jumped to 60k on my server
hollow river
Oh god lol
woeful juniper
kyrian 
civic trellis
did you guys miss the kyrian hype a few days ago?
hollow river
I’m curious how the play style will be
civic trellis
😛
hollow river
But I wanna play sin
civic trellis
did you guys miss the kyrian hype a few days ago?
well more likely 2 weeks ago
woeful juniper
then the obedience simmers attacked and everything changed
hollow river
I wonder if it will make outlaw feel better >.>
granite thistle
Is it possible Obedience gets nerfed?
flat barn
This question is for anyone that tried the PTR for sin rogues. Will it be worth switching to venthy from your current covenant come 9.1?
granite thistle
Like, do you guys think its too good? (I have not looked into it)
frank jetty
Everything is possible - and yeah it is damn strong- check Pins there are sims
tidal gorge
Lievet your picture makes me want to hit my screen. I hate it
hollow river
I don’t think a ton of people tried venthyr obedience after the bug fix
But there are sims in the pins ye
granite thistle
Word
woeful juniper
honestly both necro and vent will have uses in the raid sbs is not to be underestimated on some fight. just cause something technically sims better doesnt mean it will actually play better.
if youre happy with what you have stay with it
unless its nf
hollow river
Looking good atm. Everything is subject to change
woeful juniper
then run
hollow river
Never know what blizzards gonna do and they’re still optimizing sims. Need trinkets implemented etc.
strange python
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
flat barn
unless its nf
That's my problem. I am currently NF, but dont want to switch yet until I get flying
woeful juniper
if I would have to put money on it obe will not get nerfed
just switch now it takes like a day to get 40 renown
woeful juniper
i am sitting on necro with the vent quest done
just gonna chill and wait for patch notes
umbral rapids
we got patch notes
hollow river
I’m contemplating switching to venthyr this week.
woeful juniper
like if you really wanne ride the obe hype switch to vent now and prep necro. if it doesnt get nerfed great otherwise go back
or just stay vent
it will be fine either way
granite thistle
I feel like Vent opener is awk af
void pecan
I'd just wait for tuning/real sim stuff with conduits and what not
woeful juniper
how come?
hollow river
We have conduits I thought?
woeful juniper
in my opinion its way smoother than necro xD
granite thistle
Think so?
granite thistle
I also have no been playing Rogue for long. Main swapping
woeful juniper
SBS on sire is 
hollow river
Ye
hollow river
Probably the most fun I’ve ever had raiding
granite thistle
without a doubt
hollow river
I’m not CE or anything. Just heroic sire.
warm sparrow
Hey does my valor reset tomorrow or next week?
hollow river
So ez
woeful juniper
mythic sire id reckon its even better
granite thistle
Tomorrow
hollow river
Tomorrow from what everyone says
woeful juniper
buy leather with it
hollow river
Better spend dat
hollow river
If I need upgrades
woeful juniper
dude if that worked
granite thistle
Ima try it lol
woeful juniper
highly doubt it will work
hollow river
Everyone ready to regrind phial?
hollow river
Apparently shadowgrasp totem is bout to be big stonks
woeful juniper
but tbh the raid trinkets will get buffed
I doubt blizz wants a 2 doungeon trinkets to be BiS for the rest of xpac for most classes
hollow river
Shadowgrasp totem afaik is like #2 or #3 trinket (that’s implemented atm)
strange python
1-40 will have increased catch up, so feel free to chill if you're unsure of swi...
Those this mean that it drop 100% even if it’s in heroic dungeon spam?
hollow river
No one knows yet I think
woeful juniper
no one knows
hollow river
But it will be easier for sure
woeful juniper
its kinda easy now tbh
hollow river
Last patch stuff always easier
woeful juniper
just spam hero pf
hollow river
True
woeful juniper
for a few hours and you will be at 40
hollow river
Snoresville tho
woeful juniper
yeeaaa
hollow river
Lfr is a blast
woeful juniper
but theres alot of decent groups in doungeon finder now
hollow river
woeful juniper
put on a movie or smth and just vibe with the plaguefalls
strange python
Are you guys talking about PF boss skip?
hollow river
Yea
woeful juniper
really important to not do campaign at all
strange python
Yeah I hear 1-20 level is 100% drop renown
woeful juniper
untill you can reach 40 with it and other guaranteed renown
strange python
Afterward will be rng
woeful juniper
more like 1-14
strange python
Maybe I’m lucky it stopped for me at 20
woeful juniper
its kinda random
if youre lucky you get a few mates and just spam it while having soem fun in voice
dense quest
amm guys, it is still Doomblade better than Dashing ? on ST
woeful juniper
arctic walrus
@balmy condor so shameless i just noticed you sim as diaper baby race
hollow river
hollow river
amm guys, it is still Doomblade better than Dashing ? on ST
Yes
versed mica
how many targets does it take for dashing to outtake doomblade for multi target fights?
hollow river
Oh I didn’t see the weird check the pins gif
Umm, we use doomblade on practically all raid rights of 9.0
Unless you want Zoldycks for execute like on Sire prog
versed mica
I swear I read somewhere that dashing was better when there was 2 or 3 target cleave. Ah well
hollow river
But dashing is not far behind doomblade at all. No idea on cleave
In 2 or 3 target we should have enough energy regen from venomous wounds already.
You could always sim yourself with either.
versed mica
True, but that's not how I think about it
I'm thinking of poison crits in general, but maybe using mut to multidot would be better
hollow river
Doomblade mut and envenom damage on cleave I would imagine is really good in comparison
Yeah we use mut on cleave. Fok on 4 or more. You can fok to keep poisons on all targets but definitely not use it as your main builder.
ornate lake
good morning chaps!
hollow river
How’s it going
ornate lake
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
granite thistle
my man
ornate lake
Thats what u looking for i think
modern heart
when you try your best but you dont succeed
granite thistle
LOL
ornate lake
Haha
balmy condor
No you don’t
balmy condor
That’s fine
ornate lake
can you elaborate why?
balmy condor
Because vanish mut env mut is the same thing
ornate lake
even in shiv window with poison dmg?
balmy condor
Yes
ornate lake
oh fk, i played wrong myself than
balmy condor
We don’t care about cp before shiv
We just shiv on cooldown
All the time
Regardless of everything
Gonna overcap cp with the shiv? That’s cool
Shiv on 4cp? That’s cool
Shiv on 0cp? That’s cool too
lavish pulsar
okay what if a burglar bursts into my room and says "i will shoot you if you use shiv before you have 4 combo points"
civic trellis
Gonna overcap cp with the shiv? That’s cool
Oh really?
balmy condor
Then you tell him to shiv on cooldown
civic trellis
You dont know how many times i was at 6 cp and felt bad for not using shiv
woeful juniper
granted i never really got the vainsh mut env mut line over vanish env mut env line
balmy condor
Every question about shiv can be answered with “is it on cooldown?”
civic trellis
XD
ornate lake
Yeah same Sonndo, but seems fair enough
balmy condor
Like not even kidding
civic trellis
Yeah but its funny
balmy condor
If you just ask yourself “is shiv available to use”
Yes? Hit shiv
No? Then you can’t hit shiv anyway
ornate lake
feels unnatural imo, but will make rotation simpler
more simple*
Holy fk, it's early...
woeful juniper
yea but why not vanish env mut env?
civic trellis
@balmy condor it turns out deadly poison is a bit bugged
balmy condor
Fantastic love to hear it
scenic root
Only exception. Is vendetta up in 10 secs, hold shiv.
balmy condor
Yeah that’s an exception for an extra 10 dps
balmy condor
When in doubt, everything on cooldown always
Vend/flag syncing? If you’re not sure, on cooldown
lavish pulsar
what if i bind shiv to every button 
civic trellis
outlaw playstyle
balmy condor
I mean that’s every spec in the game playstyle
Sitting on cooldowns is very rarely good
For anyone
woeful juniper
sub saves dances tho
ornate lake
Mash everything thats possible xD
woeful juniper
for symbols
civic trellis
And ele saves stormkeeper 😛
balmy condor
sub saves dances tho
Yeah but they have charges that allow them to do that
They’re not wasting anything waiting for it
woeful juniper
i guess
lavish pulsar
yeah sub should preferably never have SD on CD
and wasting seconds
vs a charge building up
timid talon
Can we get a new pin, im starving for new info. Literally anything, a crumb would be enough
civic trellis
Can we get a new pin, im starving for new info. Literally anything, a crumb woul...
There is a link with sims
timid talon
OLD NEWS
civic trellis
you can check whatever you want there
woeful juniper
I still dont get why we dont vanish envenom mut envemon tho whispyr. shouldnt that be way better?
balmy condor
Not really, no
It’s actually very neutral in dps
Completely in margin of error in fact
woeful juniper
hmm seems weird to be but if you you say so
civic trellis
I still dont get why we dont vanish envenom mut envemon tho whispyr. shouldnt th...
Because you lose a bit of uptime of vanish
you have to build to max-1 to use env
which is dps you are losing holding vanish
woeful juniper
depends on fight lenght if you lose a use
balmy condor
Forcing yourself to get to 4 then shiv is a loss of casts.
Mut env mut is more cp gen during ma, which is good
Muts double hit, which is more poison applications
civic trellis
well, you can't sim every fight, thats why they use a general timer
woeful juniper
hmmm I guess it does mean less shivs.
lavish pulsar
someone say less shivs???? gross
woeful juniper
crit mutilate should do less dmg than a crit shiv env tho right?
eh w/e if you say so ill just go with it
all praise god whispyr
final star
Using mut isn't just mut damage 😊
woeful juniper
yea ofc. I dont theory craft i just play the class. sometimes i just ask some questions
to clarify some stuff
ornate lake
Makes two of us Sonndo
balmy condor
Yeah life as a sin rogue generally gets a lot easier when you stop thinking about it
woeful juniper
balmy condor
Rupture garrote slice? Ook ook refresh during pandemic fantastic work
ornate lake
That lesson is learned regarding Shiv haha
balmy condor
Shiv vend flag? Ook ook on cooldown
CRACKING
Don’t mut on 4
Perfect
You’re playing the class
balmy condor
You can quickly get into the weeds on pooling and do I shiv after this or do I shiv with that and do I vend before rupture or after rupture or sync flag here or there
But at the end of the day
Kinda all whatever tbh
woeful juniper
running around like a mad man on mythic sire trying to dot everything is hilarious tho
speaking of it. shiv is better than rupture on a new add right?
like if i shiv sire during cabalist i just stay on sire?
obviously I ct and garrote the add but no rupture?
oak sky
did i hear shiv on cd
woeful juniper
woeful juniper
even when playing other rogue specs
fallen arch
Yes
woeful juniper
shiv on cd
oak sky
Brb macroing every ability on every spec with shiv
oak sky
fleet anchor
It’s actually very neutral in dps
Is this BoD? 😄
(This question has gotten asked more than just about any question that I can think of. The short version of the answer is: one gives you more damage, one gives you more combo points which is more damage. Do what you feel, they are the same.)
nimble tartan
how minimal is pooling anyways, i never even thought to pool i just like sending it.....
drifting cloud
as the ceo of midmax you should know
rigid pine
brisk forge
Pooling is boring, better to be starved on energy like a true assa
plucky sluice
Sbs at sire myth is just funny. I loved it. Cabalists insta 5 cps ;) just killed hom 2 days ago and we are happy ;)
civic trellis
Sbs at sire myth is just funny. I loved it. Cabalists insta 5 cps ;) just killed...
and sbs bugs out in p3 giving you insta 6 cp 😛
until first masacre iirc
fleet anchor
Pooling is boring, better to be starved on energy like a true assa
Pooling is just being energy starved with a slightly bigger yellow bar
brisk forge
Haha idd
fleet anchor
Because they still don't work correctly.
With any luck, they will work before people can get them 🙂
vestal wren
i get that people want to know in advanced
but we have to have some patience with the daggers
umbral rapids
simulationner
fleet anchor
At least half of the proc weapons are really not implemented yet in SimC due to many bugs with them and testing difficulties, changes to implementation in the last few days, etc.
Ultimately it doesn't particularly matter until we can actually get them. Nobody is making gear decisions about the daggers this week.
solid mica
anyone know if spatial alignment apparatus have to be used b4 patch or not?
final star
What for
All legendary get a socket when you upgrade them anyway
If they are a socketable slot, anyway
solid mica
i guess for gear we didn't already socket maybe?
slender berry
It won't disappear in you bags if that's the question
solid mica
would we be able to socket it with one we kept if it was got before patch
drifting cloud
you should yeah
solid mica
nice
sand sigil
XD
solid mica
i presume the condensed stygia wouldn't dissapear either then? I got like 20 of em
not tryna pop em and get boned in the maw
slender berry
Yea nothing disappears except valor and conquest
solid mica
roger that
idle shard
valor will disappear next week with season 2 right
solid mica
turn to gold i believe
sonic spire
This week : 29-5th isn’t season 2 yet… it’s just limbo
idle shard
😮
solid mica
wait does season 1 m+ end tomorrow?
idle shard
idk, season 2 starts next week
rustic whale
guys what will number of renowns first week? 3 or 4
mortal pike
So I'm just rerollin rogue for next tier, should I make doomblade first? or how is this tier of raid looking.
sonic spire
wait does season 1 m+ end tomorrow?
Yeah, season 1 ends tonight but season 2 doesn’t start for another week, that’s why this week is just limbo
solid mica
so i can't get IO for a week?
oak sky
Arent achieves still available this week
sonic spire
AOTC and CE yes, because it’s just “before the release of the next raid tier” PvP achievements I’m pretty sure are done, you can’t get them (not 100% sure cause I don’t pvp) and KSM is up in the air, not sure of anyone who’s waited till after the season ends to try and get it so I don’t have evidence either way
oak sky
Yeah thats what i thought
azure bronze
You can still get KSM
Till the 6th of July
Only pvp seasons ends today
Check the dungeon part
iron orchid
I'm tired of french websites posting bullshit rogue guides
Is there a way to take part in a translation of wowhead guides ?
iron orchid
Just learn english <:4HEad:562445753985794052>
Well yeah 
Guess Imma reroll into English teacher main
brazen rampart
English teacher doesn't scale well with secondaries
merry fox
Hi, so how Obedience works in the end? I checked it in early PTR builds and it was bugged). I guess vers buff now lasts for whole duration of flag (24 sec). And cd reduction works for same time or only during build up phase?
balmy condor
or sub is better
Unsure
balmy condor
Hi, so how Obedience works in the end? I checked it in early PTR builds and it w...
Cdr is only for 12
merry fox
@balmy condor thanks
versed mica
For sin obedience, will we be picking vigor/mfd for faster combo point spending to maximize cdr?
soft shale
has to be seen
weary marten
it needs to be calculated, in ST if you play Deeper stratagem, you'll start already at 6 cp and with crit you tend to fill your combo bar fast
so not sure about playing MfD just for this
balmy condor
Ep/vig with obedience currently seems pretty bad
Compared to bs/ds
I tried mfd but it seemed pretty rubbish as well
tacit wedge
I'm tired of french websites posting bullshit rogue guides
pay me 0.05€ the word and i translate you any guides, no bamboozle 
tacit wedge
English teacher doesn't scale well with secondaries
Is "scaling" part of the trigger words, alongside with "infexious" and "how to use shiv"?
potent dagger
Ep/vig with obedience currently seems pretty bad
Even on dungeon slice ? Oo
balmy condor
Is "scaling" part of the trigger words, alongside with "infexious" and "how to u...
Yes
“Vanish dependency” is a new one I’d like to add
weary marten
"it's pwetty spicey"
tall jewel
Would be assa the best pick for pvp inn 9.1?
balmy condor
Even on dungeon slice ? Oo
Well dungeonslice is a different beast obviously
balmy condor
Would be assa the best pick for pvp inn 9.1?
Who knows tbh
balmy condor
"we scaling, sin rogue top dps at 9.1.5"
I will chop your balls off and pan fry them with some butter and chives, mince them all together, and serve my cat the freshest wet food he’s ever had
weary marten
what is chives ? 🤔
tacit wedge
I will chop your balls off and pan fry them with some butter and chives, mince t...
for free? 
balmy condor
for free? <:POG:689254722603057231>
I’ll pay you
limber lion
Would be assa the best pick for pvp inn 9.1?
I honestly don't think there is a best choice for any content. That's the beauty of having so many classes/specs, everyone brings something different to the table.
zealous marsh
limber lion
Some better than others
vestal wren
i think its good to have diffrent good options even if it means making some hard choices
tacit wedge
<:Pog:749360426856480798> I’ll pay you
that's an absolute win.
Memes apart, isn't "scaling" kinda a buzzword because sin rogue is just very average about secondaries? ike having suddendly a lot of crit will not skyrocket it into the dps charts
limber lion
Any assassination fanboys in the chat? 
subtle tundra
femboys
vestal wren
that's an absolute win.
Memes apart, isn't "scaling" kinda a buzzword because s...
scaling is a buzzword, its more of a meme. pure stat scaling is irrelevant because what decides on wether a spec is good/bad comes down to how strong the systems are that blizz adds in the content
balmy condor
that's an absolute win.
Memes apart, isn't "scaling" kinda a buzzword because s...
“Scaling” is a fun term people with no idea like to use to sound smart about sin being good in raid
“Oh sin is really good and it’s the end of the expac, they scaled”
weary marten
Any assassination fanboys in the chat? <:AngryLove:717851219430735942> <:Loved:7...
yes ! been favorite spec since wotlk
tacit wedge
In my mind scaling=
balmy condor
And then your casual friend is like
civic trellis
Scaling with aura_25%_dmg_buff
balmy condor
“What’s actually scaling”
civic trellis
pog
vestal wren
"sin scaled" is the biggest meme of 9.0.5 or 9.1 when blizz literally buffed the spec by 25%+ in 9.0.5
balmy condor
And they can go “well scaling is the effect of your secondary stats giving you a larger damage boost compared to other specs”
balmy condor
And it seems like you’re a giga brain TC with all the answers and the hidden stat knowledge
tacit wedge
I come from warlock where we are just "get gear, dont give a shit about secondaries"
balmy condor
Could scaling be a thing without DR on secondaries?
It could, but it wasn’t a thing for the last like 4 expansions
balmy condor
I come from warlock where we are just "get gear, dont give a shit about secondar...
That’s us too kinda
tacit wedge
G r e a t
balmy condor
People like to pretend like they can feel the difference between 20 and 25% haste
strange python
People like to pretend like they can feel the difference between 20 and 25% hast...
same people that taste every grain of salt in food
balmy condor
same people that taste every grain of salt in food
Mhmm… mhm.. yeah this is definitely HUNGARIAN paprika for sure
You can tell cause it’s more “earthy”
tacit wedge
Last time i felt a difference due to my haste rating was the day i went OoM on ilgynoth fight because corruptiin gave me 180% haste
balmy condor
Whatever the fuck that means
slender berry
too far
weary marten
Hum i can taste this wine has grown in a pine barrel, the grapes had a great south exposure during its growth blabla
zealous marsh
I feel taste from south italian grapes in this wine
balmy condor
I feel taste from south italian grapes in this wine <:copium:854628182104080414>
Champagne is only champagne because champagne grapes are superior to non champagne grapes used in not champagne champagne
balmy condor
tacit wedge
balmy condor
Wait, what's wrong with infexious? I used to watch his videos in legion lmao
His guides got more random nonsense than…an infexious guide?
Idk The analogy kinda fell apart
His guides are shit
Is the tldr
limber lion
Last time i felt a difference due to my haste rating was the day i went OoM on i...
I feel like the further we get from BFA, the higher the haste from corruption becomes.
versed mica
lmfao
balmy condor
Idk, I only had like 70% haste, not sure how man's pulling 180%
I had 250%
During vita bloodlust
limber lion
