ah i see
#assassination
echo geyser
balmy condor
arguably also harder to play
echo geyser
seems like u would just never play it then lol
balmy condor
yeah
echo geyser
if u lose even more with chaining
balmy condor
the only thing it has going for it is more burst aoe on like 6+ targets
drifting cosmos
how low is low
echo geyser
i dont know
balmy condor
how low is what low
balmy condor
in my experience it was like 200 dps
odd hazel
its not bad
echo geyser
it was worse than zoldyck but its even worse if u dont get restealth
odd hazel
odd hazel
kieron
echo geyser
whats a kieron
balmy condor
I think that guy uses it in 20's
weird dude that's in here sometimes
kinda fried takes
odd hazel
so @stoic needle ?
stoic needle
odd hazel
drifting cosmos
is it just me or sin boss dmg in m+ feels weaker than bfa
balmy condor
shrouded will do that
drifting cosmos
i remembered in bfa not many classes beat us in boss fight in keys
but these days has been harder
versed mica
sin rogue M+ was the only fun part about BFA
echo geyser
zoldyck doesnt provide that much st tho right? unless its high hp boss /tyrann?
echo geyser
and when u play m+ u go full "aoe" talents right
idk how much u gain for the st talents
5%?
maybe less
balmy condor
subt to ma is like 1%, zold to doomblade is 4-5%, CT to PB is about 1%
so
like 5-6% yeah
dawn ivy
yeah if you actually think about MA its just three globals of SOME crit
echo geyser
yeah its even 2 only now that i think about the opener
yikes
cause u press snd inside that window
muti snd sbs right?
chilly mist
Can someone tell me why Mutilate is better than Ambush (from Stealth), when I am compare numbers Ambush is doing 1k more (1,5k Mutilate (with doomblade) vs 2,5k Ambush)
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
dawn ivy
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
dawn ivy
SECOND TRY LETS GOOOOOOO
chilly mist
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The...
Ah thanks
echo geyser
Can someone tell me why Mutilate is better than Ambush (from Stealth), when I am...
u forgot muti can hit multiple times
or am i trippin
i might be
odd hazel
well
i forgot to switch talents and
got a 90 on sludge overall
EB SUB VIGOR and CT
¯_(ツ)_/¯
not mythic though, sadly.
echo geyser
are the crits individual or does both always crit
balmy condor
individual
echo geyser
interesting
dense cedar
Just wanting to make sure, with the new raid's loot having good shoulders, its still correct to craft Doomblade on hands?
dense cedar
Oh are they changing the options for that stuff?
Didn't know that
I guess I should just sit on ash then
balmy condor
they added a cloak crafting slot for doom on ptr like an hour ago
echo geyser
i wonder if they let us scrap legos cause of that domination socket clashing with certain legos
odd hazel
easier/better fix: just give us a extra slot for items
and they did give us one for doom thankfully
or not thankfully
dawn ivy
oh wow crazy
20 gold is outrageous
i cant believe theyd gatekeep out ability to swap gems with another goldsink
steel geyser
low girder
just need to fit timegating in there
oak sky
so does that mean we can like move a slot to a different item
wicked briar
does shadowgrasp totem scale with any stats/vendetta/anything like that or just use on cd?
balmy condor
does shadowgrasp totem scale with any stats/vendetta/anything like that or just ...
scales with haste, but that's it
compact pumice
so does that mean we can like move a slot to a different item
Most likely that you can remove the actual gem from a gear you got an upgrade for, not to add domination sockets to other gear.
wicked briar
worth to wait for flag stacks as venthyr then?
wicked briar
cool cool, thanks
oak sky
@compact pumice oh yeah i didnt read very carefully still cool
echo geyser
when u play CT on ST with doomblade, is it j ust me or does ur first shiv and vendetta get quite delayed?
echo geyser
ah ok
balmy condor
so it shouldn't move them in any way
echo geyser
i see i just assumed u wanted ct up for the DB effect
echo geyser
but it would delay shiv vendetta so sounded weird
compact pumice
Btw, outside of shiv, do we pool for CT or just for Envenom?
balmy condor
both
compact pumice
Damn, feels like you might only get like one CT off per shiv window rotation
balmy condor
yeah seems reasonable
I mean it doesn't seem reasonable
CT on single target is a freak of bad balancing and terrible design
but given that
it's reasonable
compact pumice
On how many targets do you start refreshing CT even in Shiv btw?
balmy condor
2
regal cedar
will we be moving our legendary zoldyck to feet next patch?
idle shard
was about to ask some things about assa and covenants but suddenly read @balmy condor s "have u checked the pings?" and read everything I wanted to know
lmao
balmy condor
was about to ask some things about assa and covenants but suddenly read <@!16709...
IT WORKED
idle shard
it did lol
wait there's actually something I wanna ask, if I go necrolord how do you play serrated bonespike? That isnt on pings right?
balmy condor
it should be with how often it's asked, but I ran out of characters on the faq
silent tinsel
balmy condor
you cast it from stealth to get the dot up, and then recast during gemstones, or to avoid overcap
idle shard
you cast it from stealth to get the dot up, and then recast during gemstones, or...
I see, thats alright
so basically avoid overcap, and use em during gemstones
regal cedar
anyone know if we'll be moving zoldyucks to boots next tier?
balmy condor
doubtful
regal cedar
even with the set gems coming out?
balmy condor
set gems go in boots as well
hollow river
is there a command for enchants?
basically jw whether we choose eternal skirmish or stats
balmy condor
top gear has a section to sim it
hollow river
Kk didn’t know if we only really used one or not
balmy condor
the difference is super slim
hollow river
Yeah I kinda figured that as well
What’s the difference on weapon enchants?
Generally speaking
hollow river
I’ve been using lightless/sinful ever since I switched to sin
Just because I don’t really have the gold to be switching between raids and m+
balmy condor
I would just run celest/sinful
hollow river
Ah really
balmy condor
yeh
won't make too much of a difference
but it's a gain in single target and not really a loss in m+
hollow river
Kk thanks
balmy condor
np
hollow river
Does anything else snapshot CT/any of our bleeds? Besides NS/CT
I know we can “snapshot” low cp rupt on dying mobs for regen
balmy condor
exsang snapshots haste, ns/subt apply extra damage
that's it
that's not what snapshotting is
that's sniping
hollow river
Right right
balmy condor
CT doesn't give anything, so no point in sniping with it
hollow river
Still getting hip to all the cool lingo
Yeah I remember you saying it was really only worth a low cp rupt
Would you say that’s more worth than another muti/envenom?
Guess it’d be situational, last mob of the pack energy starved kinda thing in order to snipe a rupt
balmy condor
you only snipe when you're not saturated
hollow river
Right ok thanks
heavy skiff
hey is 1qd 100% stats when u use it in BL?
cause i thought it was but it just didnt give me stats 😦
shy dust
Think the only thing that cna take prio
Is taking a massive amount of damage
As you press it
forest whale
Hey, guys. Just getting into Shadowlands and I am at an impass with my legendary crafting. Should I go ahead and craft what is BIS right now or stock up on Soul Ash and wait until we find out what is going to be BIS for 9.1? You guys might even know haha.
balmy condor
it's a little volatile atm
with the patch on PTR it's looking like doomblade/dashing on cloak
hazy crater
If you are actively playing I would just craft leggos now, who knows when 9.1 will come
balmy condor
and for m+ probably zold on legs, or deathspike on some slot
hazy crater
and you can farm ash when 9.1 comes
forest whale
Ok, I see most people crafting Doomblade for current content. Also, 80% have it on their gloves. Is it better to craft on my cloak for 9.1?
hazy crater
You can't put it on cloak until 9.1
so have to wait for that
and yeah if socket stuff stays the same, it looks to be better on cloak for 9.1
granite thistle
No more secondaries on daggers? 😦
stoic needle
who needs secondaries when you have a sick ass proc
fallen arch
You get a sweet ass effect, so I guess.. No?
silent tinsel
Anyone know how much soul ash you get from repeat runs in ptr?
dense stump
Do you guys think that Assa will be able to compete with outlaw in M+ as necro in 9.1?
stoic needle
Probably not
hollow river
Anyone know how much soul ash you get from repeat runs in ptr?
I’ve heard it something like 60% less? And 1 run gives twice as much as we get now. But I’m not sure at all
placid cobalt
is necro legendary dead now?
slow marsh
For our spec prolly
Sucks they chose to balance around one spec instead of the whole class
modest jasper
For what spec is it not dead though?
Outlaw says it's dead for all but Assa.
Assa says it's dead for Assa because it's balanced around a different spec.
placid cobalt
i don't get why they are making 90% of covenant legendaries completely trash, whats the point in developing them to begin with? i can't think of a good one except venthyr paladin really
modest jasper
Was Sub the play all along? :D
modest jasper
i don't get why they are making 90% of covenant legendaries completely trash, wh...
Same. Kinda sad to see it's basically dev time spent on like ~50 legendaries that won't see play.
But that's how it goes.
Meh.
Do I go back to Venth now... I am kinda actually sad about the Change, the legendary was super fun on PTR.
slow marsh
Sub is trolling if it goes necro so
placid cobalt
it's like, how out of touch can they be? developing a covenant legendary system where the legendaries all suck and nobody will craft them
slow marsh
Necro is still best for us, we will just use zold instead as of now
Could change again
night prawn
What did the change with the legendary?
slow marsh
Only cleaves 1 instead of 2
placid cobalt
it throws 1 extra spike instead of 2 extra
slow marsh
It could still be usable because you still get +2? charges for 5 total, but it just depends.
Initial thoughts are just the same as any other -50% nerf I think
placid cobalt
honestly doubt it but sims will tell
the thing is, it was very strong in aoe and virtually useless in ST, i honestly don't think it needed nerfing
placid cobalt
yeah but so remove flurry interaction
slow marsh
Exactly my point
placid cobalt
that would be logical way to go, not nerf it for every spec
slow marsh
Yeah well logic and blizz balance don't belong together
hollow river
Makes absolutely no sense
placid cobalt
i don't deny that outlaw was insane, that's why i always thought they will remove flurry interaction on it
instead they straight up nerf it and make it trash for everyone 😄
hollow river
They let mage/ww/fury do 50k dps on packs but rogue gets close to 30k and gets the hammer
slow marsh
I mean I'm sure it'll still be good on outlaw tbh
modest jasper
I mean, it does honestly make sense.
Looking from the tuning on cov legendaries thus far they clearly don't want them to be the best choice in any situation.
Why that's the case is another question though...
placid cobalt
the problem is, the devs are so out of touch with the game they have literally no idea what they're developing
hollow river
Then they need to learn how to do math for their game rofl
placid cobalt
if you think about it, this covenant leggo thing is doomed to fail
if you make them strong, you polarize the playerbase even more into being forced to pick the BIS covenant
if you make them weak they are dead content before even release
it's just a stupid idea only someone who doesnt play the game would think to be good
modest jasper
It's a big weird thing imo.
Why design a lot of cool but undertuned legendaries that won't see play? Don't really get it. Is the casual playerbase that will hunt for that legendary so big?
I know my wife and she is super casual and she doesn't even have a legendary because she could not care less about Torghast...
slow marsh
Yeah idk why they thought cov leggo would be a good idea as opposed to just putting that effort towards reworking the shit leggos that will never be crafted
placid cobalt
the only way these will ever see play is if they are "additional legendaries", but if they take normal leggo slot, i think honestly there isnt' even 1 class that will use them bar venthyr holy paladin
slow marsh
I would much rather have actual choices depending on need / utility vs oh this sims highest so I'll take that.
placid cobalt
i honestly can't think of 1 that's good
hollow river
In m+ though? I think it’ll be pretty darn close to finality
placid cobalt
i mean tbh i honestly doubt sub will be played over assa in serious raid content, might be wrong tho
slow marsh
In m+ you're playing sub anyways who cares
Sub is looking very close to sin so it'll be choice / damage profile needs
hollow river
Idk man it’s starting to look like sub may be the up n comer
slow marsh
Couple of fights looks like good sub fights vs sin
I wouldn't be surprised if sub makes the 9.0.5 sin comeback
placid cobalt
i didn't look at specific fights yet, but sin is not only better because of sim numbers, it's much easier to play and more versatile, but again, we'll live and see
hollow river
I wouldn’t mind sub in keys if it does good dam
modest jasper
Pretty sure it won't be. Did you prog a hard boss on Sub before? I found it almost depressing seeing your cds spiral out of control because you have minor tactic changes or got an unlucky mechanicc
placid cobalt
like personally i got average 98 on mythic as assa necro and i don't think i'll be changing something that works
modest jasper
For prog I will be on assa 99% of time.
slow marsh
A few fights look like they could be really good funnel fights and sub looks like the play
placid cobalt
i think assa is so easy and convenient
as assa u can literally 90% a boss like xymox while carrying seed for example
modest jasper
Exactly
hollow river
Sub could be good on KT I think
slow marsh
I mean true, I personally will stick with sin unless sub is significantly better
hollow river
Those burst windows
placid cobalt
the thing is, unless sub is significantly better, like it sims 10% more or something, i doubt i will ever play it
slow marsh
Sub will be really good on soulrender? Guy with the big add that has to die before it reaches the front
modest jasper
Thing about sub on Progress is that it mostly lacks consistency
placid cobalt
even if they sim the same etc. it's still more nuanced
slow marsh
Also will be good for bdsm pain guy
silent tinsel
Sub's burst isnt better than something like unholy
modest jasper
You can have insane pulls and then one pull you get forced out of melee on your 2nd dance and all cd timings are fked.
hollow river
Yeah but you need multiple players to go to the thing on KT
slow marsh
It's not but it's better than sin and it's pretty close by what people say right now on ptr so
placid cobalt
like anyone know how much is sub buffed compared to now?
hollow river
Pretty significantly it seems
slow marsh
Yep
placid cobalt
cos looking at the obedience sims pinned in the channel seems to go between 7.2-7.3 with current gear
hollow river
There were a few rogues that raid tested as sub and did pretty well from what I understand
placid cobalt
which is basically the same as assa numerically, roughly
slow marsh
Uptime on dance is way up and the damage buffs are felt. But that's from what people who play it here say, idk first hand. It's something I have on watch
silent tinsel
So is black powder deal damage to targets with find weakness regardless of cap on that change now?
slow marsh
People are being cautious with number crunching on ptr stuff because it can change pretty drastically at a moments notice
balmy condor
So is black powder deal damage to targets with find weakness regardless of cap o...
Already does that
slow marsh
The black powder thing seemed like it was a change due to a bug or exploit maybe? Like you can't put find weakness on something across the room then BP hit it from 60 ft
Seemed like another useless wording change to me basically
silent tinsel
They should do something like "Every person damaged by black powder increases next eviscerate by 50%, "
hollow river
Find weakness applies to your entire parties dps doesn’t it
slow marsh
No
kind kraken
No?
hollow river
Ah
slow marsh
That would give rogue raid utility and we can't have that
hollow river
):
slow marsh
Sure
hollow dirge
compared to combat
Combat, those were the days
balmy condor
They should do something like "Every person damaged by black powder increases ne...
just shuriken combo but like 10x stronger
balmy condor
true
it's not like a single target fight that has waves of adds has ever existed since
vestal wren
so deathspike nerf? on ptr
limber lion
Yep
vestal wren
totally unexpected 😛
balmy condor
so deathspike nerf? on ptr
morning
vestal wren
<:whispyrwave:838675021790183425> morning
👋
dry shoal
outlaw player herre just training dummy testing assassination
assassination really need to focus on keeping bleeds up on multiple targets also on big packs in m+
bcus on outlaw i just focus the biggest guy and cleave off him
vestal wren
thats correct and by design
limber lion
<:whispyrwave:838675021790183425> morning
vestal wren
outlaw is basically uses BR to cleave
assassination does spread garrote/rupture/ct
subtlety does spread fw and rupture in cleave and spams bp instead on higher target counts
drowsy parcel
is the wording on deathspike relevant at all? or is in fact just a wording change
balmy condor
it's 2 targets instead of 3 now
drowsy parcel
yeah i can read too
balmy condor
then I'm not sure what you're referring to
drowsy parcel
idunno my initial read was that the duplicated spikes would generate cps as if they were cast too
vestal wren
possible, needs to be tested
strange python
when are they making it so you dont need to reapply poisons everytime you enter torghast
balmy condor
when are they making it so you dont need to reapply poisons everytime you enter ...
when they make it so you don't have to reapply poisons every arena
dry shoal
the thing is i only have 2 207 daggers but 224gs and on cleave dummies i am getting constant 9k-10k dps so i guess i am getting the hang of it
Just need higher daggers to see the dmg compared to my 226 weapons on outlaw
but it seems really fun until now ❤️
silent tinsel
You dont have to reapply non lethals though, so its only 50% as bad
dry shoal
Just miss my grappling hook and my range 😅
muted adder
is it better to overcap combo points by 1 or use finishers at 4?
balmy condor
finishers at 4
muted adder
is that supposed to happen often or just me lol
balmy condor
I assume as much
limber lion
That's the normal gameplay of assa since forever.
hollow dirge
You can plan a but for it and counter it every now and then with shiv/garrote, but 4cp envenoms are soulbound to us 😂
muted adder
😢
dry void
do we know if sylv dagger applies twice as many debuffs or not if you equip 2?
tribal marlin
https://i.imgur.com/fUNhzlb.png
Thanks god they heard me
balmy condor
do we know if sylv dagger applies twice as many debuffs or not if you equip 2?
untested
charred wraith
Would iqd be better for sludge than memory of the past sins if iqd sims better? (we lust 4th pillar)
final star
You want double on use damage trinkets
for sludge
will push out slightly more damage
I'm not a fan of IQD on sludge even with a self target macro
balmy condor
I think iqd is great on sludge
charred wraith
i was using it before, got my hands on memory finally, and can't really evaluate iqd dmg if i always proc secondary stats against 2 pillar and 1 off pillar memory use
final star
I think iqd is great on sludge
It's group dependant for 4th pillar however
the chance of it healing/giving mana is a bit spooky
I swapped to dreadfire+Skulkers
dreadfire for pull, 2nd and 4th pillar
charred wraith
during lust it ignores everything iirc and always gives secondaries
balmy condor
during lust it ignores everything iirc and always gives secondaries
it still heals
charred wraith
well, luckily never hapened to me
west cove
does shiv increase phial's damage?
tulip nacelle
no
balmy condor
west cove
it comes off cd where i would use rupture on the off target and its initial damage seems so weak
like my feelcraft brain thinks if i wont envenom in its window it’s totally useless
envenom twice at least*
west cove
well who cares about shitty dedly poizonxd
balmy condor
Yeah, the 2nd or 3rd highest damaging ability we have.
responsible for half our energy
absolute trash
tribal marlin
it feels just like toxic
That's exactly what shiv is no ? a tiny toxic blade stab ?
balmy condor
That's exactly what shiv is no ? a tiny toxic blade stab ?
...that's what I said, yes
muted adder
are u supposed to hold/use vendetta for/with anything or just on cd whenever
limber lion
are u supposed to hold/use vendetta for/with anything or just on cd whenever
Depends on the boss fight, but generally just use on CD.
fallen arch
Maybe a stupid q but does mind numbing poison work on bosses in raid?
cloud reef
Yes
limber lion
Yes sir and it stacks with Curse of Weakness from Warlocks.
fallen arch
Wicked
modest jasper
idunno my initial read was that the duplicated spikes would generate cps as if t...
Just tested: Nope 
Also seems they also reduced the range for the 2nd target, in maldraxxus target dummy area I can't hit two dummies anymore 🙂
limber lion
Yeah for sure.
You normally run it in M+ as well, but Crippling has some uses here and there.
fallen arch
I usually run crippling because of the slows
My group doesn’t have much slow otherwise
Only run mn for raging usualy
balmy condor
I usually run crippling because of the slows
does your tank kite that much
fallen arch
Idk? In my mind the slow always had more value
limber lion
Slows do help to some extent
limber lion
Idk? In my mind the slow always had more value
Well thing about it
There's 6 mobs that are all hitting the tank
You reduce all of their attack speed down
It's not super mega giga or anything
But it's literally just free damage reduction
limber lion
Crippling doesn't really see much play nowadays because kiting is not really a thing.
And sometimes it even fucks things up even more.
placid pagoda
I just swapped to necro as assa as I play outlaw in keys, have I cucked myself with this new nerf to necro?
balmy condor
I just swapped to necro as assa as I play outlaw in keys, have I cucked myself w...
necro got buffed
deathspike was the one that got nerfed
placid pagoda
necro got buffed
I thought the Lego got nerfed
fallen arch
deathspike was the one that got nerfed
It did?
placid pagoda
Okay so still@the play? Was current out venth @balmy condor
limber lion
Yes sir.
balmy condor
Okay so still@the play? Was current out venth <@167090536602140682>
yes
just like right now
we still go necro
placid pagoda
Okay great to know, thank you
balmy condor
np
placid pagoda
Is the SBS Lego nerf that big anyways?
Why does blizz always leap on any sort of rogue discrepancies but leave the rest of the game@untouched
limber lion
It was very huge for Outlaw. We don't know yet how big of a nerf it really was.
Probably a sizeable one for Outlaw, but not necessarily that big for Sin.
We might play Zoldyck next patch again, but who knows.
placid pagoda
We might play Zoldyck next patch again, but who knows.
Yes JPC was saying in his stream
vocal kelp
When did the nerf happen? Cant seem to find anything in the PTR notes
bleak sun
2nd weapon 233 
limber lion
When did the nerf happen? Cant seem to find anything in the PTR notes
It was literally hours ago.
vocal kelp
wth, im blind hehe, thx!
fallen arch
It was literally hours ago.
I gotta stop sleepoing at night. Miss so much stuff
limber lion
I gotta stop sleepoing at night. Miss so much stuff
Didn't miss much, honestly.
balmy condor
not like you knowing the info half a day earlier is gonna give you an edge or anything
fallen arch
Ofc not, was a joke my dudes
fallen arch
Shit is gonna get flipped around anyways in the next couple of weeks. We'll see how the legendaries turn out at release
balmy condor
yep
errant delta
so what im seeing is necro is the call next patch?
limber lion
It is the versatile choice for most things and currently performs better than the other covenants, excluding pure st.
We don't really know yet what will be the play in 9.1
errant delta
and still doom on st and zold aoe?
limber lion
Maybe, not sure yet.
Balancing and tuning is not final.
And we don't have a release date
Anything can happen
You're better off asking Blizzard that.
errant delta
ccool havent missed anything not looking forward to swapping cov again
limber lion
Yupyup
shy axle
did not follow the discussion, but why is necro that good for 9.1. right now ? (even if it changes, just interested)
shadow tusk
Its marginally behind in ST and Miles ahead in any fight with more than 1 target
indigo mulch
I actually prefer playing zoldycks even though its kinda boring as a leggo.
Feels "cool" to have an execute.
raven vapor
does anybody have spec WA's that aren't information overload?
limber lion
Or just download a pack and delete everything that you don't want to see.
Like, you're not forced to use the entire pack if you don't want.
azure bronze
Did you guys see that they finally added a value to the Sylvanas dagger?
shut garnet
has anyone checked on ptr whether they removed secondaries from the daggers
with the change yday
shut garnet
🙂
limber lion
Heyy there we go.
shut garnet
ff
azure bronze
So on low health mobs/bosses it would give you a 40% /48% chance per finisher to do 299 shadow damage?
or does the 299 damage also stack 4x?
limber lion
The way I understand it is that the % is flat per combo points, but the damage portion of it stacks.
Meaning that with 5 combo points you have a 10% chance of procing the Banshee's blight
azure bronze
hmm
limber lion
You get stacks passively and then you have a chance to consume it to deal extra damage.
teal bloom
Idk, to me that effect seems weaker than just having a 259 dagger with normal secondary stats
limber lion
(not actually sure if it consumes the buff or not, but I would assume so)
teal bloom
But i'm bad
limber lion
I think so too Janisss.
But tooltips are funky and shouldn't really be trusted.
Maybe it procs like a shit ton in reality and does mega damage somehow
azure bronze
If it's 10/12% chance of proccing it would feel pretty shit 
limber lion
We'll only have to wait for the sims and see how they do.
10% chance to deal 300-1200 extra damage on one finisher.
But yeh, just wait for the sims.
Tooltips are often flawed.
azure bronze
Yeah that's true
warm parcel
no need to sim
if they dont increase the dmg drastically
thats just a pile of steaming hot garbo
limber lion
That's assuming the tooltip is accurate. But yeah, definitely looks dog.
charred wraith
This dagger doesnt have secondaries ?
charred wraith
this day continues to punch me in the face with some of the decisions
strange python
!iqd
strange python
see if Inscrutable Quantum Device is anygood
limber lion
Looking for a weak aura or explanation how the trinket works or
It is arguably the best trinket for Venthyr rogues.
It falls a bit for others, but it is overall a very good trinket.
strange python
ok
dry void
that proc is even dog for bc classic
limber lion
Not really, I can help you with it
Are you looking for an explanation in how the trinket functions or why it's good or something else?
limber lion
Okay, so
strange python
i know it gives huge stat buffs but not always
plush delta
I can see the sims in the pins, but is there ever a situation dashing scoundrel would be stronger than zoldycks in M+?
limber lion
It has a chance of doing several things depending on the situation. It can:
- give you stats
- execute the target
- heal someone in your group who's low hp
- grant someone in your raid group mana
Those are the 4 main things that can happen
But you don't really need to think about it by just getting a weak aura for the trinket
The weak aura will tell you what happens, so you don't have to manually track it yourself
limber lion
It also has a hidden feature where if you use the trinket during lust, you are guaranteed to get your highest stat and an increased duration on the buff.
So what you do is you get your crit as your highest stat and you use IQD during lust. This will guarantee that you get the crit buff from the trinket, as well as a longer duration.
strange python
sick
limber lion
any way to cheese not to heal or grant mana?
Yes, by not pressing the trinket on cooldown. You get a weak aura for it and if the weak aura says "heal", then you just wait
When it says "stats", you press it.
strange python
kk
limber lion
I can see the sims in the pins, but is there ever a situation dashing scoundrel ...
Not really.
copper sundial
love the iqd during lust its huge
strange python
thanks alot ceverion
odd hazel
Cev, i got a 90 overall on sludge with the M+ set up because i forgot to switch talents
:^)
limber lion
Hah, nice :D I did that once as well, felt pretty bad
Next week 95+ with a proper setup
odd hazel
i mean its just
its funny to me because its the best ive done on sludge
:^)
gonna just meme my way to all 90 over all parses
limber lion
I also got my best parse on m sludge as Necrolord
But now I'm convinced that Necro is actually pretty dank on Sludge
odd hazel
how often do you get gems proc with pillar?
limber lion
Well you don't get it for the first pillar, but you get some of it on the 2nd and the full thing on 3rd
odd hazel
lining up that with CDs that must be big
velvet escarp
Speaking of Sludge, I did rather poorly during my prog kill. Can any of you tell me what I could've improved on with my logs?
I know I missed a Skulkers on 3rd pillar 😔 and energy capped abit before 4th
limber lion
I'm a bit busy right now, but I can take a look in like a few hours if you don't get any log review boys during that time.
velvet escarp
That's fine, tyvm!
somber dove
guess now is a good time to swap covenant to Necro, right?
limber lion
guess now is a good time to swap covenant to Necro, right?
I mean, Necrolord is arguably the best covenant currently
We're not sure about 9.1 yet though, balancing and tuning is yet to happen.
if it happens
odd hazel
you want to line up CDs with pillars so that you have them for the extra damage on pillar @velvet escarp
you also messed up your oppener
limber lion
you want to line up CDs with pillars so that you have them for the extra damage ...
On mythic you use cooldowns on pull, 2nd pillar and 4th.
odd hazel
oh?
limber lion
Not on first pillar.
limber lion
I mean, if you hit 4 pillars, then using cooldowns on pull is fine on heroic as well
somber dove
ok, thank you (:
limber lion
Even if you don't get luyst
But if you hit the wall on heroic, then saving for 1st pillar with lust might be fine.
If the boss dies just before 4th pillar, then you'd want to use them on 1-3
velvet escarp
yeah i saved vendetta, vanish & memory of past sins for pull, 2nd and 4th
limber lion
Like it's not really set in stone, it changes based on groups performance.
velvet escarp
i also kept shiv for each pillar, only using one after that, apart from pull which i squeezed 2
and then SBSs for pillars
for the opener, i wasnt aware of the SBS opener with necro so i went with the standard mut -> slice and dice -> mut -> garrote -> rupture
velvet escarp
Like it's not really set in stone, it changes based on groups performance.
yeah i was expecting 5th (wall) but we ended early so i messed up my CDs at the end too. died a short while before the end too. it was a scrappy kill >.<
limber lion
for the opener, i wasnt aware of the SBS opener with necro so i went with the st...
It's similar, except you use SBS as your first gcd instead of Mutilate
So SBS - SnD - Muti
odd hazel
tbh i cant find much then out of that
limber lion
i also kept shiv for each pillar, only using one after that, apart from pull whi...
This is correct, as well as saving SBS for pillars.
odd hazel
but cev is a hawk so he'll find it lmao
limber lion
I'll take a look in a few hours, just remind me so I remember :p
odd hazel
besides the obvious things, im not the gr eatest at in depth readings of logs.
❤️
did you get that hateful chain?
warm parcel
I can burn you too
velvet escarp
sadly no haha, but i use phial anyway
warm parcel
why would you randomly pot at 35s
velvet escarp
OHH YES
i forgot
about the pot usage
because we were expecting 5th wall
so i was supposed to pot on pull, and pot near 5th
velvet escarp
but then i panicked this fight and messed it up
warm parcel
you shiv and run out of melee cause of stomp
stomp > shiv
besides 7k on proge kill isnt even bad
fallen arch
so i was supposed to pot on pull, and pot near 5th
Even if you expect wall, I think it’s better to all pot at hero(4th)
fallen arch
besides 7k on proge kill isnt even bad
Was about to say same
warm parcel
ye obv pot with lust
velvet escarp
stomp > shiv
ohhh i see, so i delay after the stomp without sacrificing the pillar shiv then
warm parcel
pot procs more with more haste so lust helps it a lot
velvet escarp
idk i saw green parse and thought it was terrible D: i was so angry with myself when i noticed the missed skulker's on 3rd pillar
warm parcel
I mean Id take 7k on proge kill easily
odd hazel
99% of parses are fast kills and cheesing
warm parcel
I see no issue with it
fallen arch
Thats not making difference between green and purple, hitting one cd wrong
warm parcel
Also nitpick
limber lion
If the boss is dead
limber lion
You can start optimizing and minmaxing further on farm kills, the prog-parse doesn't really matter too much.
velvet escarp
why would you mut at 4
i suspect it was because i was trying to get max cp going into pillar
so that i could immediately envenom
warm parcel
youd do that at 4 regardless
velvet escarp
oh yeah thats true
limber lion
I would probably just get to max cp and close to max energy before pillars, without overcapping energy.
Just to maximize the 12s window.
velvet escarp
I would probably just get to max cp and close to max energy before pillars, with...
yeah after the final stomp usually i check to see if i have to refresh rup/garrote, then i pool CP and energy
limber lion
But you should definitely have plenty of energy when entering the 12s vulnerability.
warm parcel
why didnt you trinket on pull
velvet escarp
in terms of pooling in general, is getting high energy sufficient? or should we also get to 4+ CP?
warm parcel
if you rock 2 on use, just use one every min
velvet escarp
why didnt you trinket on pull
oh i used in before pull
limber lion
memory prepull 
velvet escarp
so i memory of past sins 5 secs before
warm parcel
o so just not showing
velvet escarp
and then stealth
warm parcel
yeye
limber lion
in terms of pooling in general, is getting high energy sufficient? or should we ...
Pooling always refers to pooling for energy.
We don't really call generating combo points as "pooling combo points"
velvet escarp
ah good point
limber lion
I wouldn't necessarily call that a nitpick
warm parcel
rupture at the end cause you may think you dont wanna recast it
then you apply it 5 sec later
velvet escarp
lemme check and see if it's cuz i ran outside for stomp/seismic shift. i think if that was the case, i should've probably refreshed rupture and garrote before it then
warm parcel
most likely yes
velvet escarp
ah yeah it was, gotta remember to check before stomp then
ok thanks a lot Cev/wEak/Oz!
pure moth
Also, have you done a sim for oils vs stone? You use oils and phantom for pots vs straight agil.
velvet escarp
Also, have you done a sim for oils vs stone? You use oils and phantom for pot...
nope, never bothered to sim for that lol. i just use phantom fire and oils
maybe i'll look into agil & stones
gusty mirage
Agi + stones is just more consistent damage for assassination
If you do want to sim it, Whispyr has yo back
!oils
Hm
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
gusty mirage
^
bleak sky
to the 30% haste guy: I feel you. Just reached 30% crit and I feel like a weirdo
fallen arch
ok thanks a lot Cev/wEak/Oz!
Out of curiosity, how many pulls before kill on sludge?
velvet escarp
oof, i joined late, so for my own pulls maybe 60-80 something? for the kill it was our 3rd or 4th pull that morning
fallen arch
Morning 😅
velvet escarp
ye, weekend morning raid :D
fallen arch
Not too bad
velvet escarp
my first time playing assa seriously so it took quite a bit of time getting used to. would've done outlaw but my guild needed the extra deeps
even with 213 and 197 daggers it looked like i was doing more dmg on assa than outlaw
the CDs just line up so nicely, that fight as assa is fun
bleak sky
sin is pretty good on sludge
limber lion
Sin is great on sludge*
gusty mirage
@limber lion 
frigid kestrel
Yo @limber lion i gots a question for ya homie?
limber lion
Yo <@!165215952479322112> i gots a question for ya homie?
Hit me.
frigid kestrel
When you use SBS on Grashaal before he flies up, how did you get it off without pissing off them Boomies using wrath early?
Like im hitting SBS when Wrath flies by my face and my Boomies are getting tilted, but if i wait it seems i cant get a SBS off before he flies up.
limber lion
Like im hitting SBS when Wrath flies by my face and my Boomies are getting tilte...
Why are they getting tilted?
keen cairn
Fuck ur boomies
limber lion
If you see the wrath in the air, it's a sign to GO
frigid kestrel
Why are they getting tilted?
INcoming copy pasta
limber lion
Like pulling the boss 0.5-1s early is not the end of the world and will not change ANYTHING
frigid kestrel
Null, the way moonkin pre-pull casting works is we trigger our eclipse by casting 2 wraths before the boss is ever hit by a spell so we can get 2 starsurges (60 ap) off, bc when the boss gets pulled, we are instantly snapped to 50 ap and our eclipse is reset (meaning we go back to needing 2 casts of wrath to trigger it).
If something pulls the boss prior to this or in the middle of it, it screws us.
frigid kestrel
If you see the wrath in the air, it's a sign to **GO**
Thats what i said
limber lion
Null, the way moonkin pre-pull casting works is we trigger our eclipse by castin...
But like
Why does it matter?
You shouldn't use cooldowns and whatnot on the boss anyways
before the Goliath spawns
Like that's just a mega-waste if you go into your CA/Convoke window immediately
You have plenty of time to build for Eclipse and whatnot before the adds spawn
keen cairn
Tell them. Ur SBS stack perma is way more worth then their additional SS
limber lion
Yes, 100%
frigid kestrel
I legit did
limber lion
Perma SBS on the boss is giga in comparison to one extra cast.
warm parcel
I mean at that point the boomy wraths dont matter
So just tell them to suck it up for a boss
limber lion
Yeah, it literally doesn't matter
frigid kestrel
Been arguing this since day 1 of prog when they kept pulling early
velvet escarp
Perma SBS on the boss is *giga* in comparison to one extra cast.
it never even occured to me that i could do that to grashaal on pull lol
frigid kestrel
Tell them. Ur SBS stack perma is way more worth then their additional SS
Told them that already. Legit explained how my entire kit works
But i think they are getting it now
Just wanted to see if you even remotely had the same issue in your guild
limber lion
If they are saying dumb stuff, just refer them to here
and we'll roast em
We never had the same issue, because the boomies are aware how stuff works.
gusty mirage
Don’t boomies just auto pad on the mobs flying around?
keen cairn
And what cev said, so much time to setup their shit
warm parcel
Cause you gotta get timings
limber lion
yeh
limber lion
It's like people complaining that they cannot use a second vendetta in P1 on Sire
It's just
useless.
frigid kestrel
Also, not getting that SBS up while running DS feels super weird
stoic needle
I had the same issue on slg prog, I told the boomies to just get over it
fallen arch
it never even occured to me that i could do that to grashaal on pull lol
Wow, me neither
stoic needle
You have to do it early or he becomes immune
frigid kestrel
You have to do it early or he becomes immune
Exactly
fallen arch
You have to do it early or he becomes immune
Will try tomorrow 
I will tell tanks I might pull early
frigid kestrel
I will tell tanks I might pull early
As long as your raid isnt being a team of idiots you should be fine pulling at 1
fallen arch
Not like that never happens with 4 boomies in the raid
frigid kestrel
but if you see a wrath fly by your face before 1, pop that shit
gusty mirage
I just SBS as I see the wrath hitting the boss
fallen arch
Almost always a boomie or fire mage hit first
frigid kestrel
Not like that never happens with 4 boomies in the raid
Wrath is my 1
fallen arch
Guess its fine when you have tricks up
fallen arch
Wrath is my 1
Ye but followed closely by that precast pyro bullshit flying by
velvet escarp
Guess its fine when you have tricks up
raid lead wants me to tricks skirmishers so i don't have it on pull :(
fallen arch
and we'll roast em
Ceverion telling you to get those moonchickens in here
So he can roast them to chickenwings
dull cloak
SBS grashaal still works?
limber lion
¨Yes
bronze steppe
Hey guys, I'm planning to practice assasination this week. We are currently on mythic Sire, should I use standard 5 min patchwerk sim for the fight, or should I sim something else? I wanna see what pieces I can work on upgrading for Sin 😄
limber lion
Hey guys, I'm planning to practice assasination this week. We are currently on m...
You cannot really sim for Sire honestly.
You should just ask here and we'll help you with finding a good build for it.
paper bough
Hello gents, iam back on rogue and had a question because so many diffrent answers. im planning assa only for raiding pure single target. Some say Doomblade is better, some Dashing scoundrel. what i should use? thanks for the answer ❤️
limber lion
Generally the go-to on progress is focusing mainly on P3 damage, so BS/DS/CT with Zoldyck.
limber lion
Hello gents, iam back on rogue and had a question because so many diffrent answe...
Doomblade is better.
Not sure where you heard that Dashing is better, but that is not the case.
In any situation.
teal bloom
Does grashaal take damage when he's not on ground?
limber lion
Does grashaal take damage when he's not on ground?
No.
paper bough
Doomblade is better.
thank you ❤️
limber lion
thank you ❤️
You're welcome, good luck!
bronze steppe
I have only Doomblade atm, but I have some ash left, so I'll craft a Zoldyck in 2 weeks i think. I was asking about sims, cuz I have a lot of different pieces with random stats. Currently I'm wearing 600 vers, even when removing a lot from my Outlaw gear , dunno if there are 220 pieces that I can farm from dungeons with better stats and be worth the 6 ilvl drop tho
limber lion
I have only Doomblade atm, but I have some ash left, so I'll craft a Zoldyck in ...
The stats don't really matter, don't think about them too much
Just prioritize crit/haste for most things and you're good.
paper bough
so i stack also crit and haste
limber lion
You should probably try to sim yourself for the usual patchwork and then on multiple targets on short fights
and see how the items/stats compare.
Then make a decision yourself.
paper bough
vent
limber lion
Why Vigor
paper bough
whats vigor witch row
limber lion
Why Subterfuge
paper bough
i dont know in english sry
somber dove
3rd row
limber lion
You should run this or Elaborate Planning/Vigor in most cases.
Subterfuge is pretty bad in single target, don't play it.
Blindside/Deeper Stratagem is the go-to for Venthyr's.
strange python
So you don't take CT for sire?
limber lion
and iam going for talents 3210021
It was in reference to this.
strange python
Oh mb
paper bough
so sry i was in fight
thank you @limber lion if i have freetime i let you a dono on your stream when you are online
😗
limber lion
thank you <@!165215952479322112> if i have freetime i let you a dono on your str...
Haha, no worries mate. Good luck!
limber lion
No worries mate! We're here to help.
spice spire
scenic root
Should SBS be used during vendetta? ( With or without gemstone proc) or is casting mut generally better?
limber lion
Should SBS be used during vendetta? ( With or without gemstone proc) or is casti...
Just keep dumping during Gemstone windows.
Your Vendetta and Gemstone windows should allign pretty well anyways, if Vendetta is used on cooldown.
If they don't, then just save the sbs charges for the gemstone.
scenic root
They line up nice until they crit during council dance. 😩
But that's what I been doing. Just was wondering if mut was a better cast during vendetta and to save SBS until after vendetta finishes
paper bough
You should run this or Elaborate Planning/Vigor in most cases.
can you post me your potency conduits to the vent build too pls 😄
keen cairn
U go Nadja
And play your covenant conduit
Lashing scars
And then go down to right side of the tree where u pick up duelist
swift sigil
Should I start farming venth renown? Ive just switched to nerco for next patch
limber lion
Should I start farming venth renown? Ive just switched to nerco for next patch
Nah, you're probably fine as Necro.
swift sigil
Cheers!
limber lion
can you post me your potency conduits to the vent build too pls 😄
Yeah, what @keen cairn said.
limber lion
Currently Necro is overall the better choice, because it beats Venthyr whenever you start adding new targets to an encounter.
Venthyr only pretty much wins in pure single target.
willow eagle
Well
Wouldn't you wanna take sin for the pure st damage for prog?
Or does 2+ targets translate into more single target damage as well?
compact pumice
There's really very few pure ST fights in WoW at all
Yes, cleave makes more Prio target damage
stoic needle
Venthyr St is not that far ahead of necrolord
compact pumice
Though >3 targets start removing prio target damage
limber lion
Or does 2+ targets translate into more single target damage as well?
Yes it does.
stoic needle
Less than 100 dps
limber lion
Wouldn't you wanna take sin for the pure st damage for prog?
Well, yes. But they are very, very close in output. Venthyr can see some play on some fights, like Kel'Thuzad.
Venthyr is a lot better for those quick burst windows like the KT Phylactery
willow eagle
Fair enough
alpine latch
@limber lion Did I miss PTR notes? I'm not seeing anything but my buddy was saying people were complaining about nerfs?
limber lion
<@!165215952479322112> Did I miss PTR notes? I'm not seeing anything but my budd...
Yes, there were some patch notes from around 15 hours ago.
Deathspike was nerfed, Doomblade got a new slot.
Nothing major.
alpine latch
I'll take a look, only thing I saw was Warlock changes
Must have been a different build ID
limber lion
limber lion
Yep.
alpine latch
Which didn't say anything about rogues
hazy crater
goodbye deathspike I barely knew you
limber lion
Spike is probably still decent for Sin.
alpine latch
It'll still probably be good
hazy crater
maybe
limber swallow
this might be better served via PVP, but there are instances of stealth in SoA... does anyone know if the extra spikes from deathspike can hit stealthed targets?
limber swallow
honestly, it shouldn't.. but knowing blizz and their history of forgetting those types of interactions...
limber lion
I highly doubt it honestly.
alpine latch
It still seems like it will be pretty strong in m+.
hollow river
Jpc was complaining about deathspike or the unholy gems?
alpine latch
Deathspike
vestal wren
but being fun because something is overtuned is different from being fun because of good design
hollow river
Because the unholy gems were pulling him out of stealth whenever he targeted anything
alpine latch
vestal wren
idk
hollow river
Oh yeah complaining about the nerf
vestal wren
i think its not good to always compare to the biggest outliners
alpine latch
Yeah, that's what prompted him asking me about it, which is why I asked here.
hollow river
Oh
vestal wren
"hey bruh this one spec has a 15% legendary, we should be allowed to have 15% too"
shy dust
"hey bruh this one spec has a 15% legendary, we should be allowed to have 15% to...
Guy seething
He always does this
hollow river
Darn right guy
alpine latch
The issue with Legendaries, IMO, is none of them seem that fucking legendary.
vestal wren
i know
hollow river
Look at the other melee specs smh
vestal wren
but in a balance enviroment with 1 outliner, why make it 2 and not just
like do something logical an nerf the one outliner?
spice spire
"hey bruh this one spec has a 15% legendary, we should be allowed to have 15% to...
Based
sick scarab
tbh i think blizz as usual going wrong path.. it is a nonsense to add a Covenant legendary IF that legendary is crap or not playable.. they should do ONLY convenant legendary to make the choice more "unique" etc theyn just add balance problems over balance problems etc
vestal wren
i think deathstrike is a interesting discussion
because is it fine for a legendary to be op in a specific niche if its bad in e.g. pure st?
alpine latch
It's just odd, because IMO JPC is known for pushing keys, not anything related to being some sort of "raid god"
And it still seems like it would be strong in keys
Might not be OP/broken, but strong
sick scarab
i see night fae legendary and i cry a river lol.. ffs
mighty hazel
guys Doomblade or Zoldyck Insignia for raids ?
scenic root
Or am I remembering incorrectly, and sepsis just gave vanish
tulip nacelle
sepsis used to cast vanish yes
scenic root
Still sad to see
mighty hazel
noone knows ?
spice spire
noone knows ?
Doomblade for raid seems better for now - it’s not a universal answer though
tulip nacelle
but for slg/sire prog you'd want zoldyck
limber lion
guys Doomblade or Zoldyck Insignia for raids ?
Just get Doomblade. You can play it on every boss.
Are you doing mythic?
mighty hazel
for raids bro
mighty hazel
but i can only 1 of them
limber lion
Yes.
Mythic raids
or heroic raids
or normal raids
or lfr
there's 4 difficulties
mighty hazel
we are gearing for myth raids
limber lion
There we go
Just get Doomblade.
If you sometimes get to Sire, then you can consider getting Zoldyck as well.
mighty hazel
so 1-10 boss when you look overall doom better
mighty hazel
okey thanks bro
limber lion
The only bosses where you would play something different in prog than what the top players are playing on logs would be Sire and maybe SLG.
mighty hazel
i see okey it doesnt matter shoulder or hands yea ? i can do both
vestal wren
And it still seems like it would be strong in keys
it was very strong in m+, thats why it got nerfed
limber lion
i see okey it doesnt matter shoulder or hands yea ? i can do both
Gloves.
vestal wren
its not "it was strong"
limber lion
You can get 233 shoulders from M SLG.
vestal wren
it was stronger than existing options and some of them are already "too strong"
mighty hazel
my shoulder i184 glove i207 xD
mighty hazel
i dont know why
limber lion
If not, then get shoudlers.
stoic needle
just get some conquest 200 shoulders
limber lion
220 ilvl shoulders with valor
stoic needle
or grind any mythic plus dungeon
limber lion
mighty hazel
im grinding past 2 weeks never see shoulder lol
limber lion
I doubt it
stoic needle
how many keys have you done
mighty hazel
i swear
limber lion
Let's see it
limber lion
What's best leggo for all round use?
Zoldyck.
mighty hazel
limber lion
Would recommend getting both Zoldy/Doom at 190 before upgrading either.
This is not "grinding"
limber lion
Last update was 19 hours ago
But yeah, doing 10 dungeons overall
is not really
"grinding"
Or might be a very lose definition for grinding.
neon berry
Thank you
limber lion
stoic needle
grinding would be doing +2s over and over
mighty hazel
but their drop is to low ?
limber lion
Get your SD up to +10 so you can upgrade your items
limber lion
but their drop is to low ?
???
That's why you grind it
You don't do one +35 dungeon
and get every single item in the game
You grind the low ones
The item drop chance is the same
until +15
anyways
stoic needle
you get enough valor to upgrade them in the process
limber lion
wat
mighty hazel
+5 drop 194ilvl items +10 204+
limber lion
You get the shoulders from the dungeon
mighty hazel
thats why i try to do highs i said
stoic needle
i like +8-10 because they're still fast and you don't have to spend as much valor
limber lion
then you upgrade it with valor.
stoic needle
but do whatever is fastest for you
limber lion
This is what it looks like to grind a dungeon for an item
mighty hazel
oikey okey i understand
