Legs.
#assassination
limber lion
limber lion
Yep
sullen garden
Was OL all of Shadowlands but making the switch for Donny
alpine latch
About to make my 2nd Doomblade.. FML
balmy condor
Are you a shoulder crafter
alpine latch
Mine are on Shoulders, but I'm making gloves for PvP
9.1 allows us to craft r4s any time we want, basically, by making SA endlessly farmable
I'm not worried about it
scenic root
Will doomblade change slots in 9.1? Or don't know yet from raid drops?
drifting cloud
depends how raid sockets will work
theres a chance we dont even run db
if theyre super strong, because both db slots are on raid socket slots
hollow river
I’m tempted to recraft because I did haste vers 
hollow river
I really want to be farming mythic Sire
hollow river
O.o
alpine latch
during Legion I was making 3-5m a week
hollow river
I’m new so I’m a penny pincher
Got like 400k between two servers
Moving up into better guilds is a slow process 
alpine latch
Yeah. My guild is fine, for now... But I want to get back to being in a CE guild. Haven't been in one since Legion and I miss it.
hollow river
I’ve never been in one so it’s hard to even get into a 9/10 atm
alpine latch
I didn't get CE, sadly. Had to quit raiding for work
hollow river
Ah dang
hollow river
Boosting I’d imagine
alpine latch
Doing what?
Farming the craftable legendaries, selling leather/mail craftable gear, and seed raids
limber lion
I do boost as well, but it's not number like those.
alpine latch
Boosting wasn't much of a thing in Legion
hollow river
O:
alpine latch
99% of the playerbase didn't give two fucks about m+
I'd make 150-250k an hour doing seed raids
And I was doing 10+ a week
limber lion
What are seed raids
alpine latch
In Legion, when you gathered herbs you'd sometimes get seeds
You planted the seeds in "fertile soil", and 30s later a plant would spawn
10 people could loot them
limber lion
Welp
alpine latch
So you'd get a 10-man raid, everyone would plant seeds
And then you'd loot them
It took maybe 30 minutes, and you'd make bank
limber lion
Sounds nuts.
pale fossil
How did that not just tank the market for herbs?
alpine latch
So I'd just buy a bottle of whiskey, make myself a few drinks, and shoot the shit with people
pale fossil
Not enough people knew about it?
drifting cloud
hes probably on some potato realm
alpine latch
I was on Stormrage
plain thistle
turbid harbor
i made all my legion gold boosting m+, there weren't communities but it wasn't hard to find buyers
drifting cloud
it was funny in legion if you were a blood dk
youd just get a buyer and get 3 pugs
pale fossil
It's in the FAQ pin
alpine latch
Yeah, m+ in Legion was strange
I was in a CE guild and almost never touched m+
I used m+ for legendary farming and not much else
crude glade
Heya i was wondering how good Assassination is rn
alpine latch
Heya i was wondering how good Assassination is rn
It's awful, go arms warrior
crude glade
Isnt arms worse?XD
drifting cloud
its a top3 melee spec
crude glade
its a top3 melee spec
Arms or assass
alpine latch
Sin is one of the top melee specs and it's extremely solid for m+ as well.
Arms is dogshit
alpine latch
If you're raiding on a rogue, it's the best spec
crude glade
is it viable for m+ too or nah?
drifting cloud
outlaw is better but assa is still pretty strong
crude glade
Ah alrighty good to know 🙂
alpine latch
For reference, Assassination tops out around 25 or so
If you're only focused on KSM, then Sin is perfectly fine for m+
crude glade
Alrighty thanks so much!
limber lion
"tops out around 25"
slender hare
So its worth maintaining CT on single target??? Because what's said on here and on wowhead conflict
limber lion
So its worth maintaining CT on single target??? Because what's said on here and ...
Yes it is, outside of Shiv windows.
What does it say in Wowhead?
slender hare
Only maintain 2+ tar
prisma monolithBOT
loud light
limber lion
Yeah, that's incorrect then.
spice spire
That needs to be fixed :really:
limber lion
I believe the core guide was created before 9.0 was released and kept updated throughout
That must have slipped through.
slender hare
Yes it is, outside of Shiv windows.
Keep up Crimson Tempest (if talented) against 2 or more targets with four or more combo points. Refresh it only during the last 2s.
frail fossil
I believe the core guide was created before 9.0 was released and kept updated th...
yeah, mystler does it right ?
limber lion
Yes sir.
spice spire
Last time I spoke to mystler he gave the secrets behind niya herbs to us, and I’ve been scared to beckon him since
slender hare
Lol
limber lion
That part just hasn't been updated.
But yes, you should maintain CT in single target outside of Shiv windows when talented.
slender hare
Cool tyvm
gusty mirage
Our fearless leader @balmy condor did the math and said that it’s really not a big deal about maintaining CT outside of shiv on ST. It’s a small dps optimization at best I believe
balmy condor
What I do
gusty mirage
Good luck on finals sir 
you’re going to kill em
balmy condor
mellow pier
So does that math mean PB is only 20 dps?
stone oriole
so for assassination pvp do I use zoldyck insignia or wait forever for doomblade memory?
im also necro.
limber lion
so for assassination pvp do I use zoldyck insignia or wait forever for doomblade...
You don't need to wait for the memory
stone oriole
twisting corridors?
limber lion
You can just reset Twisting Corridors over and over until you get the floor where you get Doomblade from
stone oriole
ah
limber lion
Then you run the first 6 floors.
stone oriole
if I unlock it on my main do all my alts get it?
limber lion
Yep
stone oriole
bro I preciate ya
limber lion
crude glade
What covenant is best for sin?
limber lion
Necrolord for overall gameplay, Venthyr for pure ST/cheesing parses.
Necrolord beats Venthyr whenever you add any adds. It is also the best covenant for m+, Torghast, open world etc.
quaint carbon
bitter fox
plus necro is edgy as fuck. That counts for something
misty zenith
Looking at the openers on bosses i can see most experienced rogues can pull off 3-4 evenoms just after opener
I struggle with 2 and then have to re-bleed
Is this a lack of haste or something?
limber lion
I mean, what does it matter?
It's definitely not a lack of haste.
Could be different talents, getting a higher rupture in the beginning, playing a different covenant etc.
compact pumice
Are you doing the same rotation as them?
Also, comparing BL vs non-BL pulls is not wise (without not accounting for different timing that is)
misty zenith
Yea didnt account for Lust indeed
drowsy coral
Pretty sure you can squeeze 4 envenoms with two of which are inside the MA window before you've to reapply garrote, no ?
That is, with the right talent obviously
limber lion
Pretty sure you can squeeze 4 envenoms with two of which are inside the MA windo...
We don't really care for that
It doesn't matter if you get 1 or 2 Envenoms during the MA window
cerulean nest
squizz
drowsy coral
It's what he asked for
compact pumice
4 envenoms in 18 seconds? Yeah probably
limber lion
He did not ask about MA windows
But yeah, that doesn't matter
You shouldn't need to count Envenoms ever
compact pumice
Yeah exactly. Like it's one of the lowest prio casts, except during shiv.
It's basically filler
oak sky
during the hypothetical ct in st situation does ct take prio over envenom if the envenom buff isnt up
royal lantern
yes
compact pumice
Yeah, envenom would only take prio IF your SND is falling off within less seconds than to get another finisher off
limber lion
You don't really play around the Envenom buff ever.
willow eagle
@limber lion yo
limber lion
sup
alpine latch
So, I know the answer is "be better", but if I have Shiv up and rupture/garrote is about to drop, do I envenom with Shiv up and let Rupture fall off?
alpine latch
Okay, so sometimes it just works like that and you re-apply and move on
royal lantern
ye, if possible avoid it
and like, garrote is not a big deal anyway cus you can use it too reach 4-5cp
alpine latch
By "avoid it" is the play to just rupture THEN shiv?
royal lantern
but like, if it happens, w/e, re-apply bleeds and go on
oak sky
the only thing im sad about for swapping necro is losing the venthyr tmogs :/
limber lion
By "avoid it" is the play to just rupture THEN shiv?
I mean, you don't reapply early just so you can avoid doing it during the Shiv window
If it would drop during Shiv, then unlucky, reapply.
If you get to Rupture just before Shiv, then cool, don't need to reapply
compact pumice
By "avoid it" is the play to just rupture THEN shiv?
Avoid it by refreshing right in pandemic reasonably good before or do it right after Shiv if needed.
Garrote just slam it inside Shiv, doesn't matter much. Rupture is such a long duration (so such a long pandemic range) so you should be able to avoid ever having to use it in Shiv, since it is a clear loss using it in Shiv compared to only using it out of shiv, but letting Rupture drop is not even comparable how bad it is.
But usually happens a few times per night I think (to me 
)
stiff geyser
Okay okay so you always use shiv on CD but bleeds have prio inside shiv window?
sullen garden
Anyone have a good guide / YouTube vid that breaks down Sin on M Sire?
limber lion
Okay okay so you always use shiv on CD but bleeds have prio inside shiv window?
Yes.
Always press Shiv if it's off cooldown, regardless of anything.
stiff geyser
Even CT?
compact pumice
No
limber lion
No, you don't use CT in Shiv windows on single target
compact pumice
Unless multi target
limber lion
But you do on 2T+
limber lion
Anyone have a good guide / YouTube vid that breaks down Sin on M Sire?
Not really, maybe I can record a video tomorrow :)
ancient peak
What's recommended for sire prog, CT or PB?
stiff geyser
I’ve been holding shiv unless I had pooled energy and all bleeds were up
limber lion
What's recommended for sire prog, CT or PB?
CT
limber lion
I’ve been holding shiv unless I had pooled energy and all bleeds were up
Don't do that.
oak sky
oh shit i just realized i need to get my vault
limber lion
Yeah, that's the problem
You pool while it's on cooldown
And when it's off cooldown, you press it
ancient peak
Yeah I've heard a lot of people saying CT, but isn't the hardest dps check in the fight the last single target push? That's why going CT over PB confuses me.
limber lion
Yeah I've heard a lot of people saying CT, but isn't the hardest dps check in th...
Yes, but the boss moves a lot during P3 so PB loses quite a bit of value.
If you play Zoldyck, the difference between CT and PB is really small
compact pumice
Even smaller than DB at least, but it's still pretty small in DB tbh.
compact pumice
Compared to how good CT is I wish they just made PB worse enough so you could always run around being pretty much AOE viable...
limber lion
Or just make CT baseline
spice spire
We have FoK
drowsy coral
Out of curiosity, how impactful is making use of pandemic over an entire fight? As in, never skipping the opportunity to use the pandemic effect?
compact pumice
I mean tbf I would not want to trade with sub rogues. Their effective target counts are just bad for the spec
limber lion
Out of curiosity, how impactful is making use of pandemic over an entire fight? ...
Very odd question to be honest
drowsy coral
I know
limber lion
Pandemic is your friend and there is no reason to not apply bleeds during it
You don't gain or lose anything from applying during pandemic
It just makes everything smoother
And easier to play around
compact pumice
Out of curiosity, how impactful is making use of pandemic over an entire fight? ...
I mean if you compare to always trying to time in right at the tick falls off you're just gonna be stuck pooling for too long or having shit fall off without energy/CP to rectify it instantly
Pandemic is basically the tool to have 100% uptime without losing damage per energy/execution.
drowsy coral
I had a random (and probably stupid thought) about whether it would be more optimal to greed an envenom inside a shiv window or to ensure the continuity of bleeds through pandemic
limber lion
I had a random (and probably stupid thought) about whether it would be more opti...
As long as the bleed doesn't drop, then it's obviously better to Envenom
When the bleed enters pandemic, you don't have to immediately reapply the bleed
You still have the last 30% of the duration remaining
It doesn't matter if you reapply instantly or 5s later
As long as the bleed doesn't drop
drowsy coral
Yeah now that you made it clear that pandemic is only here to ensure a good flow and manoeuvrability it makes sense
honest vessel
!oil
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
gusty mirage
necro bis 9.1 according to myself
I trust this source with my LIFE
Flower is low key GOATed
heavy coral
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
frail fossil
Flower is low key GOATed
very true
grave dock
bottled poopwing toxin more like
oak sky
i got that last week 😦
cerulean nest
bottled poopwing toxin more like
nice
clever cargo
u guys think Doomblade will be the best leggo at 9.1?
balmy condor
not sure yet
limber lion
u guys think Doomblade will be the best leggo at 9.1?
For raiding? Probably. But who knows.
Maybe they go crazy and buff some random legendary by 300% and then that becomes bis
clever cargo
Ye thats right, thanks for answer!
balmy condor
I think the bigger question is the sockets and gems
slow marsh
yeah
slim sable
is this normal? you cant cloak last massacre?
https://gyazo.com/a30d66c505f3058a3b4735ce7765f1a8
slow marsh
The gem thing is what i'm waiting for
And to see the % difference between sin and sub in raid
limber lion
is this normal? you cant cloak last massacre?
https://gyazo.com/a30d66c505f3058a...
Yes, the Massacre in P3 is physical damage.
You can only cloak Massacre in P2.
slow marsh
I think you cloak the pizza sauce
limber lion
You cannot.
slim sable
so evasion should work in p3?
limber lion
That is also physical damage.
slow marsh
Oh rip I thought it was shadow
limber lion
No, Evasion does not work
slim sable
rip 😄
loud light
evasion almost never works on anything in raid
slow marsh
But you can cloak it p2
slow marsh
you can evasion the massacre debuff
do you mean impale
limber lion
So better to cloak first blood price ?
Yes, you should Cloak the first and 3rd Blood Price.
slow marsh
K good to know
I was under the assumption that it worked on pizza sauce so was gonna cloak the weird transition whne you have to step through it to be safe
limber lion
Or you can save Cloak for the bad overlap so you can run to the red stuff on the floor and try to play it safer
But most people just help healers by popping on Blood Price 1 and 3
limber lion
I was under the assumption that it worked on pizza sauce so was gonna cloak the ...
It does on Heroic, but not on Mythic.
Ask Blizzard.
slim sable
yep
slow marsh
Or you can save Cloak for the bad overlap so you can run to the red stuff on the...
wym
limber lion
You can walk on top of it after it has landed
slow marsh
Yeah that's what i meant sorry
limber lion
But not tank the ravage cast
Ah alright.
The ravage cast will kill you but the 'sauce' will not.
:p
slow marsh
Yeah no reason to stand in it anyways the tank is moving boss out of that
limber lion
Yep pretty much
slow marsh
The pizza slice is a nono. Pizza sauce is fine
So 1st blood price and that awkward overlap
limber lion
wym
You can pop cloak and run to the red stuff away from the boss so you get pulled towards the boss.
limber lion
So 1st blood price and that awkward overlap
If you use it for blood price, you won't have it for overlap
So gotta pick and choose
limber lion
I would just use on Blood Price, it helps the healers quite a bit especially if you're low.
limber lion
But it does work for p2 massacre right? that's stupid
Yes.
The mirror realm is probably the reason for it.
slow marsh
I think they are popping cd on 1st blood price
slow marsh
During gemstones
limber lion
single target
You use it as your first gcd then you dump all stacks during Gemstone windows.
SBS Priority:
- Apply it to targets that don't have it
- Use during Gemstone windows
- Use if about to cap.
If you dump during Gemstone, you automatically never cap it.
tulip nacelle
The mirror realm is probably the reason for it.
It's probably not, Zeph claims that it doesn't work on hc either, so my guess is it's because the source is different and gets messed up for some reason
low hill
You use it as your first gcd then you dump all stacks during Gemstone windows.
thank you
limber lion
It's probably not, Zeph claims that it doesn't work on hc either, so my guess is...
I'm pretty sure you can cloak Massacres on Heroic in p3.
tulip nacelle
maybe Zeph was just trolling not sure
drowsy coral
SBS Priority:
- Apply it to targets that don't have it
- Use during Gemstone win...
What's the reasoning behind playing around gemstone vs using it for cheap CP to cast more envenom ?
limber lion
What's the reasoning behind playing around gemstone vs using it for cheap CP to ...
It's just more consistent damage that way.
It sims better.
limber lion
On sludge I usually find SBS pretty valuable to cast extra envenom
Sludge is the exception to that rule. You want to save 2-3 casts of SBS for every single pillar.
That is the only fight where you don't follow the rule
It breaks cooldown usage rules as well
You don't use Shiv on cooldown, you want to sync cds etc.
limber lion
No.
visual prairie
you also wipe back to front. Sludge is just a weird fight
frail fossil
yo also meant to ask, during MA window, sometime i dont have enough energy to press a last mutilate before buff runs out but i have enough for SBS, do i press it ?
limber lion
yo also meant to ask, during MA window, sometime i dont have enough energy to pr...
You shouldn't vanish without having energy for all 3 gcd's. If you cannot afford Mutilate, then yes SBS would be fine.
frail fossil
You shouldn't vanish without having energy for all 3 gcd's. If you cannot afford...
alright yeah wasn't sure
most of the time i have enough energy tho, cuz after pressing vendetta ur most likely full
limber lion
It's like a buffed gemstone window.
limber lion
most of the time i have enough energy tho, cuz after pressing vendetta ur most l...
Yeh. You can get energy starved sometimes if you play Subterfuge for some fights.
frail fossil
Yeh. You can get energy starved sometimes if you play Subterfuge for some fights...
do u play nightstalker on some fight ?
frail fossil
oh yeah
drowsy coral
It's just more consistent damage that way.
But hold on, in a situation where your shiv is gonna fall, you don't have enough energy for a mutilate+envenom but you can do a SBS+evenom, do you still stick to the rule or do you commit to it ?
Cause I found myself very often confronted to that situation
limber lion
But hold on, in a situation where your shiv is gonna fall, you don't have enough...
You stick to the rule.
drowsy coral
Interesting
limber lion
We don't really try to fit a certain amount of Envenoms in Shiv windows.
If we get 1, unlucky. If we get 3, great!
drowsy coral
I do realize that, I'm probably overevaluating Shiv tbf
limber lion
But we don't work towards maximizing the amount of Envenoms.
limber lion
There's several reasons why we pool energy
- It allows us to use more energy during actual cooldowns.
- It maximizes uptime on stuff like Envenom, Elaborate Planning etc.
- The Envenom buffs the Mutilates we use right after, being energy starved can mean that you don't get both Mutilates inside of the Envenom window.
And so on
It's just more efficient to pool energy to maximize uptime and to allow for more effective energy usage
drowsy coral
But we don't work towards maximizing the amount of Envenoms.
This I fully understand, but does it not contradict that point ?
drowsy coral
If we work toward maximizing gcd usage during windows, does it not include envenom ?
limber lion
We pool to use energy and resources more effectively
Be it on Mutilates, Envenoms, Ruptures, CT or whatever
We don't maximize Envenom usage specifically
Envenom is just a filler finisher that we use
It's like the very last thing in the priority list
Garrote > Rupture > Vendetta/Vanish > Shiv > Mutilate > Envenom
hollow river
What is the optimal pool
limber lion
What is the optimal pool
You build to max-1 combo points then you pool to max-30 energy and use a finisher.
hollow river
Every finisher?
limber lion
If you're playing Blindside then I recommend you to pool slightly lower because of potential Blindside procs
drowsy coral
Yet it's the most damaging ability at the end of a fight ? Or I'm playing it totally wrong. One may think that it make sense to focus on boosting our main ability
hollow river
Lower as in -20?
balmy condor
Every finisher?
pins bud
limber lion
Lower as in -20?
More like -40
hollow river
Ouch that hurts ):
limber lion
Yet it's the most damaging ability at the end of a fight ? Or I'm playing it tot...
On single target, yes. But you do realize that Envenom is less than 20% of our damage
It's not majority of our damage.
We get more value out of Envenoms by pooling as a side product
But it's not the main focus of pooling.
drowsy coral
Okay I get it now
limber lion
Just maximizing EP uptime provides more benefit because it increases all of our damage
Meaning 100% of our damage
And not just the 20%
hollow river
Is the blindside pooling even in the pins?
drowsy coral
What you're saying is basically not going full tunnel vision on envenom
limber lion
Is the blindside pooling even in the pins?
No the rules are still the same
You just pool normally
But if you want to be safe, you can finish slightly earlier
It doesn't really matter
limber lion
What you're saying is basically not going full tunnel vision on envenom
What I'm saying is
Don't look at Envenom damage
And don't count Envenoms
hollow river
If you're playing Blindside then I recommend you to pool slightly lower because ...
This
balmy condor
yeah idk what that is
hollow river
Well that’s what my question was when u pinned me sir
drowsy coral
Thanks for the insights, very appreciated! (especially the gemstone rule that I was not aware of) 
hollow river
Oh I hit me on the every finisher part 
balmy condor
anything else is just weird feelcraft
limber lion
I tend to cap energy quite a bit when following normal max-30 pooling rules
But you can do whatever floats your boat.
The difference between 10 energy is like 0.005 dps
hollow river
I try to play it around mechanics as well
balmy condor
-30 is a guideline to be fair
limber lion
Yeh
balmy condor
it's not 30 or you die
hollow river
Like if I know we have to move out in 3-5 seconds I dump it
limber lion
As you should
hollow river
How bad is refreshing before pandemic
limber lion
Why would you want to do that?
balmy condor
if you refresh 2 seconds before pandemic, because it would've dropped for 2 seconds otherwise, you're completely neutral
limber lion
I mean, just using common sense goes a long way for stuff like this.
hollow river
Sometimes I’ll overcap like 3-5 seconds if I think it’ll drop while in pillar/mechanics
limber lion
You do not want your bleeds to drop during pillars, so it's completely fine to reapply them slightly before pandemic
hollow river
Right
limber lion
It's giga bad if they drop or you have to start using garrotes/ruptures during the vulnerability phase.
bitter canyon
Quick question about trinkets, is dreadfire vessel better than skulkers wing?
slow marsh
ye
limber lion
Just about to head to bed and wake up tomorrow morning to the sound of my new 233 weapon clinging in the vault.
bitter canyon
my heroic skulkers does 1k more than heroic dreadfire
balmy condor
that seems wrong
bitter canyon
was just wondering if fire dmg is better than physical
bitter canyon
yea the on use
hollow river
Just about to head to bed and wake up tomorrow morning to the sound of my new 23...
Good luck my friend 😁
bitter canyon
can you explain why?
bitter canyon
ah so the dreadfire in reality will do more
balmy condor
yes, we sim for that reason
cerulean nest
and has more agility in generral
hollow river
Omw home from work now gonna see how my vaults treated me this week
bitter canyon
got it got it
balmy condor
because tooltips, as before, are shit
ebon fulcrum
For sire mythic, the top 100 assa are taking Crimson Tempest. wouldn't it be better to take poison bomb for p2 and p3?
limber lion
CT performs better in P2 by far
It is also usually the safer choice for P3 because of the heavy movement of the boss.
When playing Zoldyck, the difference between CT and PB becomes very small. It's already small enough with Doomblade to warrant playing it just for safety and consistency.
ebon fulcrum
Thats another thing I wondered, why Zoldyck?
indigo ginkgo
execute ?
balmy condor
p3 is the only thing that really matters on sire
limber lion
Zoldyck is more execute damage for P3.
The dps check can be pretty tight on progression with people doing low dps and dying to mechanics.
ebon fulcrum
I see. Thanks guys
One last thing, if its all about execute. why not to use Blindside instead of Elaborate Planning?
balmy condor
you do
ebon fulcrum
ha ok
stoic needle
You can actually still use ep because of the mechanics that may make you overcap on energy like blood price and seed soaking and etc
hollow river
How’s the mastery looking sir
rain mortar
noob question. would there ever be a reason to open garrote, mut, garrote on the same target? Im seeing a sim tell me to do that, but I dont understand why
limber lion
noob question. would there ever be a reason to open garrote, mut, garrote on the...
I highly doubt that. First of all, you should not play Subterfuge on single target.
Secondly, link the sim.
balmy condor
cev: me sleep
also cev: whack
hollow river
He’s on it like grey on my parse o.O
tulip nacelle
Had to do a last checkup in bed. I'm gone now
I feel that
blazing island
hey guys quick question sire heroic, can rogues immune night hunter with cos?
stoic needle
no
blazing island
dam. tx
potent rune
u can immune it with cheat death though
dim ledge
hey Im new to sin rogue would you guys recommend well placed steel or sudden fractures?
for mythic raid
cerulean nest
is there some all powerful simming checklist that you always go down Whispyr when checking something like that? or just randomly try a new conduit/talent etc.
dim ledge
ok dope thanks
theyre pretty close I was just wondering bc sf seems easy to get 100% dps out of in a raid
compact pumice
is there some all powerful simming checklist that you always go down Whispyr whe...
Just tick all the conduits into top gear and run a sim?
cerulean nest
I'm just saying simming in general. like truly try out every combination of variables with my character
without breaking raidbots obviously
compact pumice
after a while you would notice a few talents and conduits etc that are never worth considering I guess
dull cloak
warped dome
what's the consensus on IQD vs Skulkers/Memory for pure ST?
balmy condor
Iqd usually
potent rune
i hear memory is actually good for sludgefist
warped dome
yeah, I think for sludge I'll run memory just to get 2 pillars out of it
balmy condor
Should use two on use on sludge anyway
potent rune
what about dreadfire?
warped dome
I don't have 😦
cerulean nest
Should use two on use on sludge anyway
so not phial?
balmy condor
You can run phial
cerulean nest
like one on each pillar im assuming?
cerulean nest
fosh
warped dome
nice, ok thanks
simple rivet
my buddy is convinced necro will be the best cov for sin raiding in 9.1. I read the pins, has anything changed from what's there?
balmy condor
Necro sims within 50ish of venthyr in single target
So the pin on that is a little outdated
But aside from that pins are accurate
I tend to agree with your buddy though
versed mica
I hear IQD has been nerfed, but as an undocumented change
a 20% reduction on the secondary stat buffs
balmy condor
When?
versed mica
this most recent PTR I believe
not 100% sure on it, been told by friends who play PTR, I don't
balmy condor
First I’m hearing about it
sullen garden
I have 220 Phial and 220 IQD, and 226 Memory and Skulkers- which two are prolly best for Sire?
balmy condor
Phial + one of the on use
sullen garden
How long is phase 3 typically for a first kill?
severe hawk
3:15-3:30mins
pale fossil
How critical do we think Zoldyk is? I’m going to run a sim in a bit but curious where the DPS sacrifice becomes worth to stick with DB.
balmy condor
In what context
rain mortar
Would there ever be a time to use exsanguinate? It’s such a fun ability - I wish it was part of the sin rotation.
compact pumice
Not in Shadowlands at least
pale fossil
In what context
Sorry, M Sire.
balmy condor
Sorry, M Sire.
Probably not that important
balmy condor
Would there ever be a time to use exsanguinate? It’s such a fun ability - I wish...
Worst talent we have atm
rain mortar
so sad
pale fossil
Probably not that important
Cool. I’m going to build it eventually either way, I figure it’ll still be BiS for ST Raid Prog in 9.1, just don’t have enough ash yet for the level 4.
balmy condor
We might see dashing make it’s way into the meta depends on the new gems
However that’s gonna work
pale fossil
Oh right, that’d be neat. It seems like a fun leggo to use.
balmy condor
It’s basically doomblade but slightly faster
pale fossil
So DB but a little worse, except we get gems because Scoundrel goes on the jewelry slot yeah?
balmy condor
Yeh
Cloaks don’t have gem slots atm
So dashing on cloak seems to be in a pretty safe spot
pale fossil
Gotcha.
dusty frost
Why is is the sin profile on simcraft.com simming 150 dps less than weeks a ago, did they hotfix something on live servers?
balmy condor
Rank 2 doesn’t affect party members
compact pumice
Totem gives rank 1 buff
balmy condor
So it’s 10% instead of 20%
compact pumice
so 10%
shy dust
balmy condor
Sure
vital haven
how big is the theotar cheese dps wise?
balmy condor
how big is the theotar cheese dps wise?
@limber lion has said somewhere between 200-300 but idk I’m not a dishonest gamer
upper trout
a little more than cheddar, a little less than brie
^ only giving a troll answer because a real one was given 👀
vital haven
kk ty whispyr
chrome arch
guys ez question but why is every guide saying use mutilate in opener when we could as well use ambush? 😕
balmy condor
!mut
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.
chrome arch
ah ye. Ty for bot call 🙂
tawdry token
how big is the theotar cheese dps wise?
if fights 5mins+ 100k+ potion dmg if not around 80-90k
stoic needle
Dishonest
pale fossil
Does Feint work on blood price? I wouldn't think so but double checking.
balmy condor
no
potent rune
correct me if im wrong but i believe cloak negates the dmg part but not the cc part of blood price
balmy condor
yep
chrome arch
Does Feint work on blood price? I wouldn't think so but double checking.
just play with elusiveness there
so much value
pale fossil
chrome arch
mate why you need cheat death? planing on massacre deaths?
pale fossil
Idk, just generally it's nice to buy yourself a few extra seconds of ticking dot damage or something before a healer can get me.
chrome arch
yeah but theres not much ticking dot damage in sire mythic besides the big adds
but p3 blood price, def cd for every single bp is baba
still I agree, cheat death might also be worth it esp for the nasty overlaps there 😄
rain lily
i wanna try assas tonight in raid, can someone link their toon so i can copy the cheat codes pls 🙂
pure sinew
Hekili
rain lily
im just playing, i wanted to copy a spec and conduits because im in a hurry. I'm reading icy veins now and will follow it
balmy condor
pins + simulating will be faster
errant fable
This has probably been asked a million times, but do you envenom whenever it's up, or do you let the previous envenom expire?
balmy condor
This has probably been asked a million times, but do you envenom whenever it's u...
as per the pooling rules in the pins
errant fable
danke ❤️
balmy condor
gerne bübchen
rain lily
yea youre right
i need to spend more time sim'ing. I worked on it last week but couldnt pass my outlaw single target dps. My offspec gear sucks i guess
or my covenants are completely wrong
or both
odd hazel
i need to spend more time sim'ing. I worked on it last week but couldnt pass my ...
What do you mean pass
rain lily
sorry, my single target sims with my outlaw setup was much higher than anything i could get out of my sin setup
odd hazel
Could be a few things, what CoV are you ?
rain lily
venthyr
balmy condor
link a sim
rain lily
thats good
balmy condor
the lack of legendaries is really awkward though
rain lily
cant you only have one equiped at a time?
rain lily
thanks, thats a big increase
cerulean nest
at what point does haste reach diminishing returns? 30%?
rain lily
i could go grab that
balmy condor
at what point does haste reach diminishing returns? 30%?
825 rating
rain lily
i have 3400 soul ash, i just dont do the maw / torghast because of how painful it is spiritually and emotionally
balmy condor
the second one at 1122
rain lily
who needs that in their life
cerulean nest
oh wow okay. basically there now
balmy condor
i could go grab that
best part is, without the legendary MA, you would take the talent MA
and then you'd have even more gains
cerulean nest
so if im at about 800 base haste. what would that mean for me during lust and other haste boosters?
balmy condor
venthyr is also % based
the only thing that would really DR would be IQD or anima battery
cerulean nest
mostly just thinking of lust and PI, im necro
balmy condor
lust and PI are both %
gusty mirage
lust and PI would stack
cerulean nest
okay sweet ty
rain lily
oh wow
gusty mirage
cause if you think about it, lust would instantly DR for like almost every class, except sub rogue
which would make lust a lot less powerful
cerulean nest
yeah thats true, just havent ever hit these soft caps before and wasnt sure what would happen lol
gusty mirage
as venthyr w/ lust I'd hit like a stupid amount of haste
balmy condor
it's really easy tbh people just overcomplicate it for some reason
if you have 825 haste, you're at the first break
so if you for example were to use a non-existent item that gives you 100 haste
you would only get 90
cerulean nest
i see i see
balmy condor
if you're at 725 haste
cerulean nest
and does raidbots comprehend this when recommending gear?
cerulean nest
perf
gusty mirage
yeah its still a dps increase, just slightly less than if you weren't at the DR rating
balmy condor
if you're at 800 haste, and you gain 100
then 25 is not-DR'd
and the remaining 75 is
so you'd lose 7.5 from that
cerulean nest
gotcha
gusty mirage
which is why our big brain benevolent leader drives home "don't worry about secondaries"
cerulean nest
I mean top gear has led me to this point. guess i'll keep following blindly
gusty mirage
because tbh you shouldn't, the only pieces where secondaries are relevant are jewelry and even then it's just a crapshoot
good man
top gear your way to victory
balmy condor
I mean honestly the DR doesn't even make that much of a difference in gearing decisions
gusty mirage
truuuu
balmy condor
like "oh no one piece of haste/crit is simming higher as vers/crit"
gusty mirage
once we get to DR territory the difference would be literally chump change in dps
balmy condor
the fucking horror
gusty mirage
the fucking horror
cerulean nest
it was definitely hard today choosing a replacement 226 ring over my last 220-226 upgrade on wrists
praise be top gear
rain lily
for doomblade, the missives are haste and crit ?
gusty mirage
yeppers
rain lily
Haste > Crit > Versatility > Mastery
Secondary stat priority can vary wildly from one character to another, this is only a rough guideline.```thx pins
and oxi
gusty mirage
gusty mirage
Feels 8.3 Man
odd hazel
Tbh if the flight whistle was a thing I wouldn’t care about flying
But thankfully it’s not some pathfinder achieve
cerulean nest
literally pressing the spacebar >>>
misty holly
if you have 825 haste, you're at the first break
eek, I am close.
Seems like that's going to start being a concern for a lot of people in 9.1
hollow river
what'd they do
silent fossil
p3 pushes at 37% instead of 40%
silent fossil
because it makes p3 ridiculously trivial
hollow river
o:
odd hazel
3% off is a lot
misty holly
p3 pushes at 37% instead of 40%
Is that a new change this week?
wise fiber
j´Crimson or Bomb on Council?
balmy condor
crimson
split grail
What talents should I be using on mythic council?
balmy condor
ep vig ct
split grail
ty
sour wraith
@balmy condor did I see you say you had a rupture WA that would dynamically tell you when you are in pandemic based off of your combo points? or am I hallucinating
balmy condor
yeh
sour wraith
could I snag it plz 😄
balmy condor
sour wraith
much appreciated
odd hazel
going to stalk Whispyr for some actual decent weak auras
@balmy condor curious whispyr since im quite new to plater
i just imported your Plater profile, what all did you change/etc?
balmy condor
uh I blacklisted some stuff, recolored some bosses, changed some alphas, and then threw in a pandemic script
and that's really about it
basically just visual things, removing useless debuffs, and then the pandemic
nothing too fancy
odd hazel
nice, so everything will glow in pandemic range?
balmy condor
yeh
split grail
Can someone explain the changes to shiv in 9.1. I don't see any difference in https://www.wowhead.com/guides/rogue-class-changes-in-shadowlands-patch-9-1
sour wraith
just changing text to make it show how long the concentrated nonlethal poison applies for outlaw/sub
sour wraith
yw
carmine token
Whispyr, you got a screenshot of your plater setup?
carmine token
all good, whenever is cool
i snagged someone's plater and i hate it haha, so now im gonna bounce around a little bit
balmy condor
all good, whenever is cool
green on sbs
carmine token
that is nice. where's the castbar show up?
balmy condor
between name and health
uneven hamlet
balmy condor
gz
gloomy knoll
we go necro 
trim turret
need to actually update it
Can I find it on wago?
silver basin
should i focus all soulash on 1 leg (i crafted zoldyck since i also do m+ as assassin) or should i craft a second? whats good advice here 😛
balmy condor
you can craft zold and doom at 210 first if you raid/pvp as well
and then upgrade them
silver basin
oh ok i crafted zoldyck at 190
so i guess craft a 190 doomblade? and then upgrade them in turns?
silver basin
great thanks for the reply!
lucid scroll
what is the best legendary to craft?
balmy condor
zold for m+ doom for raid and pvp atm, maybe dashing in 9.1
proper bane
fury warrior or assa rogue for next tier m+/raid, thoughts?
dawn ivy
whatever you're best at
gusty mirage
Whichever you like more, warriors have a nice bonus of battle shout and rally and do good damage. Rogues bring mind numbing poison and tears
dawn ivy
warrior has a token invite so if youre not that good and your guild needs a warrior, you can get an easy invite
soft shale
warrior also has banner if you like to simp
hollow river
This is a broad and noob question;
But is ilvl calculated specifically on the average ilvl of gear?
Or can 1 low slot severely hold you back
gusty mirage
It’s calculated based on all your gear, so one low slot would hold back your ilvl
hollow river
Certain slots worth more of the average?
fallen arch
Yes
hollow river
I I’ve gotten like 5-6 220-226 pieces in the past couple weeks and mines not budged from 214
I’m assuming it’s weapons-armor-jewelry/trinkets?
hollow river
Really that’s frickin weird then
fallen arch
it's just average
Doesn’t a chest piece weigh more than a wrist piece?
gusty mirage
Stat wise yes
Ilvl wise no
Having a 190 wrist or a 190 chest would factor the same for ilvl
fallen arch
Really
I would swear it feels different upgrading a weapon vs a trinket
But if you say so
gusty mirage
What are your lowest pieces?
gusty mirage
Yeah that 190 is holding you back overall ilvl wise
hollow river
Ignore boots/neck I have 213s. Helm is 210
fallen arch
Time to get back into torgy man
hollow river
Ah and one dagger is 207
gusty mirage
If you upgrade it to 210 for example you’ll see your ilvl go up. But the 210s will hurt any significant jump in ilvl as well
fallen arch
Then upgrade the doomblade already 😄
gusty mirage
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/area-52/Oxxi for example my 220 helm and my 220 phial are holding me back from 226 equipped
hollow river
I may recraft it altogether as I made mine haste/vers. I’m indecisive ok
fallen arch
Ooops
gusty mirage
You could sim the stat difference on top gear and see if it’s worth recrafting or not
fallen arch
Probably not worth the effort
hollow river
True. I tend to be low on haste vers as it is right now as i don’t foresee myself getting much further in this tier
Still waiting to see what’s gonna happen with 9.1 as well x.x
stoic needle
Haste crit doomblade sims as a downgrade from haste vers for me currently
It has for a while
keen cairn
@limber lion gl with weapon 
stoic needle
Not really worth recrafting unless you got completely wrong stats
alpine ore
What spells should be used when using vanish as an offensive cd during a raid fight ?
stoic needle
Mutilate or envenom from vanish
alpine ore
Thank you !
keen cairn
What spells should be used when using vanish as an offensive cd during a raid fi...
Ideally u wanna Muti, Envenom, Muti
plush delta
when using garotte and subterfuge, do we still garotte twice in sub window. or is it no longer worth it without shrouded suffocation
stoic needle
It's not worth without SS
limber lion
<@165215952479322112> gl with weapon <:peeposeemsgood:741874440874491945>
:'( blizzard jebaited me
keen cairn
gusty mirage
:'( blizzard jebaited me
it’ll drop off sire then
gusty mirage
If not I’ll find Ion and beat his ass for you
limber lion
<:whispyrwave:838675021790183425>
Good morning king! 
gusty mirage
you cant have it before me, stay in ur lane
limber lion
you cant have it before me, stay in ur lane
But I killed Sire before you :'(
I'm just kidding, not really
weapons for both of us today
limber lion
Did you private log it or
limber lion
Rip
limber lion
Yep
gloomy fern
but yes he died march 8th for me
limber lion
I was pretty sure you killed it way before me, but didn't see any kills on your profile and the other rogue in the guild killed it in march
So I was just confused, thought that maybe you had killed it on an alt or something
But yeh makes sense
April 14 for me
gloomy fern
was in this bad guild
gloomy fern
3 days a week
only the blå guy was good rest was actually just bad dying to double lines in p1 for days
gloomy fern
i dont think they know how to press their buttons either, they all do very low dps across the board with bis gear
limber lion
Yeah we had similar issues with our guild. Everyone parsing grey/green across the board.
I guess doing mechanics and dps at the same time is too difficult
But then again they didn't really pop off on Shriekwing or Hungering Devourer either lol
gloomy fern
this is the guild, 4.20 min kills with all 227-229
almost
not pumpers
but would have been great for parsing 
gloomy fern
we gonna do the rush whole cn today
rip
but kinda nice i guess if its actually no clowning and its done in sub 1.5h
limber lion
Yup
gloomy fern
same as my old guild even though we got 227 instead of 210
u can legit just push asap and deal with w/e comes at this point
limber lion
Yeh for sure
The guild is private logging so I guess they just stick to the strats that work instead of changing things up
true pelican
on 2T do you ct or envenom during MA window if ct dot is not applied?
storm bronze
!blindside
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
balmy condor
on 2T do you ct or envenom during MA window if ct dot is not applied?
Enven
storm bronze
!spec
prisma monolithBOT
All specs are good. Specific ones shine in specific areas.
Check the following resources for the facts:
Warcraft Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/26/#class=Rogue
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-sl-1/world/rogue/all
true pelican
Enven
my sim is doing this
https://i.imgur.com/NmvTeHk.png
balmy condor
Oh oh oh
If you don’t have it applied
Sorry
If you don’t have it applied, applying is the priority
true pelican
ok ty
limber lion
u made a big mistake
Maybe, we'll see how it plays out
storm bronze
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
storm bronze
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
neat pulsar
you can use the ocarina like a toy maybe ?
crude glade
Just to make sure, yesterday people told me Necro was best for sin, but most other places say Venthyr is best so what do i do?
neat pulsar
vent best for sin in ST, necro best for outlaw and sin multi target
neat pulsar
necro is really not far behind in ST for sin as well
drowsy coral
you can use the ocarina like a toy maybe ?
I wish you could equip it, buff the squad and unequip, but unfortunately it doesn't work
crude glade
But sticking to venthyr should be fine too then right? I'll just be missing a slight bit of dps in M+?
neat pulsar
yes it's totally fine
and maybe you do less dmg overall in m+, don't forget that single target dmg has more value as well
if you can kill prides faster for example, you can hold some other cd from your group ...
crude glade
Yeah true
neat pulsar
or target prio
crude glade
Alrighty ill stick to venthyr then 😄
dawn ivy
necro beats venthyr the moment a second target enters the fray for overal
so if you have a boss that also has a prio add for any real amount of time, necro is good
neat pulsar
people can switch necro as well because they prefer the necro mechanics
gameplay pref
crude glade
I just dont like how necro looks xd
drowsy coral
You'll be more valuable as a necro in MM+ too due to covenant buffs
neat pulsar
yeah, personnaly I hate the necro sanctum, but I like the gameplay
drowsy coral
If you go by the meta, usually your hpal or rsham is already venth
neat pulsar
for meta compos yes, but tbh I feel like PUs need more venth than necro, even if both are highly asked
drowsy coral
Depends on how hard you're pushing keys
Last week I haven't play with anything but venth hpal in +21/22
sacred isle
And fleshcraft >>>>> silly portal
crude glade
Hmm okay but what SB do i go for?
dawn ivy
heirmir is the go to
gemstone trait is very strong
you can also go with emeni, not a bad choice
heirmir changes how you use SBS though so youd have to get used to that
neat pulsar
SBS is a generating combo point ability, it does very good dmg on proc as well, and then an infinite dot for almost no energy
and for every mob you put a dot on, you get one more combo point on next use
a lot of people find it funny, but this can be harder to play as well, you will need to get used to a mouseover macro if you don't want to alt tab everything ^^
crude glade
Ah i see, but whats the change in usage of SBS
neat pulsar
wdm ?
drowsy coral
With Emeni you've to delay your SBS cast a bit
But there's no real reason to play emeni over heirmir in m+
crude glade
But he said with Heirmir you need to use it differently
drowsy coral
With heimir you can use them whenever you want
Emeni has some kind of buff when you cast SBS, so you want to maximize uptime
neat pulsar
ho yes, it's because the SBS give you and 2 other guys I think a primary stat buff for 5 sec
so you try to avoid spamming SBS like you can get used to when playing Heimir
crude glade
It doesnt mention any of this on the SB board i think
inner sonnet
Duration of 1/6 of the CD of your cov ability - pretty good for SBS cus of the 3 charges
drowsy coral
you hold all SBS charges for Gemstone procs
Definitely not for M+ tho
dawn ivy
if we are talking about solely M+ regardless of your soulbind, you spam out all charges ASAP to get damage out
inner sonnet
if we are talking about solely M+ regardless of your soulbind, you spam out all ...
of curiosity - if you do that playing Emeni, do the lead buffs stack, or pandemic? or is it just a sad replace?
dawn ivy
just basic refresh i believe
crude glade
Duration of 1/6 of the CD of your cov ability - pretty good for SBS cus of the 3...
I dont see this anywhere, maybe im just blind though XD
dawn ivy
its a very short buff, its nothing to worry about in m+
inner sonnet
I dont see this anywhere, maybe im just blind though XD
wowhead have bad tooltips lol
drowsy coral
Btw if you want to see some gameplay action of sin in high keys, check out Ryfie stream/Vods
crude glade
Just one last question, will this still be good for 9.1?
dawn ivy
we havent seen anything with soulbinds changing that logic, no
btu who knows we might all be night fae tomorrow
drowsy coral
pls no
dawn ivy
rogue has been all 4 covenants this tier its wild
drowsy coral
Sepsis was by far the shittiest ability