feels like i just hit a fat dosage of somethingspecial
#assassination
kind talon
fr
stoic needle
gloomy knoll
i mean
kind talon
it makes my sudden fractures sooooo gooooood
gloomy knoll
you don't really want pi's
unless you're putting up 99-100's
cuz otherwise you just look really really bad
like passassin
getting passed up
with 14 pi's
kind talon
im only getting like 2 anyways
gloomy knoll
hunters or dk's are best target
kind talon
kind talon
look esra
gloomy knoll
?
gloomy knoll
he bad
kind talon
in an ideal world i agree but in my raid
kind talon
if ur picking up what im putting down
fathom swift
pretty sure with current tuning you pi assa rogues over hunters
kind talon
nah
gloomy knoll
you really wanna put up at least oranges if you getting pi
kind talon
wild spirits is way more burst
gloomy knoll
unless you plan on sticking with your guild for a while
fathom swift
its not just about burst
kind talon
gloomy knoll
it's about the value of the pi
kind talon
i am esra
fathom swift
its about how good the extra haste is
kind talon
ilvl
gloomy knoll
hunter gets more dps from pii
fathom swift
x
gloomy knoll
dk is like 500 something dps with army
kind talon
a 200 conquest offhand
gloomy knoll
hunter is like 400 something
kind talon
dude
gloomy knoll
rogue is like 2-300 something i believe
fathom swift
dk on pull is obv the best
kind talon
iqd on pull tho
gloomy knoll
or always
shy dust
always
fathom swift
wow almost like i just told you rogue with pi is good
gloomy knoll
so we still slightly lose to hunters
shy dust
shy dust
is PI+crit Iqd with 2nd use being synced
kind talon
what trinket are u comparing to
shy dust
dreadfire phial
shy dust
ye
kind talon
nice
gloomy knoll
so what's our pi in execute
if you were running blindsides and say only got 1 pi for execute vend
shy dust
š
gloomy knoll
š
stoic needle
gloomy knoll
@fathom swift here's some numbers for you mr salty boi 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/113kqcqy9ai37c8EBUJK-sWYciqQ9Tb7ctmCy_boDKdg/edit#gid=0
stoic needle
Those numbers for sin definitely aren't using iqd tho
balmy condor
Are we seriously back to arguing about that nonsense PI sheet
shy dust
given PI
stoic needle
Not really
balmy condor
Good
gloomy knoll
so i figured i'd be a dick back
balmy condor
Let it die
fathom swift
i mean
gloomy knoll
fathom swift
i am not wrong
gloomy knoll
you are tho
fathom swift
š
gloomy knoll
you still don't pi rogues
fathom swift
nope
gloomy knoll
fathom swift
comparing different specs sims to each other is fuckin dumb
fathom swift
especially if ur just using the t26 profiles and think thats actually representative of random chars
balmy condor
Yeah
gloomy knoll
why would you care about someones char
balmy condor
Those sheets comparing X to Y spec
gloomy knoll
that's for your raid leader to deal with
balmy condor
Are just a fucking mess
gloomy knoll
all i care about is data
balmy condor
PI sheet, the windfury sheet, the war banner sheet
All pretty much inaccurate nonsense
Tbh
Like itās a super rough estimate, sure
But Iād knock like +-70 dps on anything you compare on that shit
gloomy knoll
i mean we did internal sims for rogues ourselves
so we have an estimate of what we gain
even if you knock 70 off of hunter or dk's estimate
they still pretty much ahead of us lol
it's not trolling to pi a rogue tho
we decent targets
kind talon
Whereās the wind fury sheet >.>
balmy condor
Whereās the wind fury sheet >.>
Theyāre all pinned in #wow-general
gloomy knoll
rage
fathom swift
arms is pretty much the only spec you actually need a swing timer to play
vagrant bison
How much do you wait for shiv on opening in aoe? For example,I got used to open with 3x garrotes into CT, fok, rupture and then shiv. Idk if I should be using it earlier or not in the rotation
balmy condor
Thatās fine
Shiv in aoe isnāt all that impressive
You just kinda toss it out whenever and call it a day
vagrant bison
š
Do you use vendetta in aoe on the rupture target (assuming there is no priority one)
?
balmy condor
Yeah
As a general rule you donāt shiv or vend unless rupture is ticking
So you toss out garrotes, maybe a ct, toss out a rupture, vend shiv, get some envenoms out for cttc or prio or whatever the fuck the cool kids are doing these days
carmine island
as a venth assa should i always wait vendetta to pop flagellation again or should i run it on cd?
warped temple
And then just rupture spread ct maintain, cry about 1 cp fok
hell yea
vagrant bison
Sometimes from 1 to 2
balmy condor
The assassination rogue rite of passage is doing aoe, fokāing 3 times in a row and still not having enough cp to finish
vagrant bison
Another one, sometimes it happens that I go into a new pack with 5 cp and like 40 sec of SND. Is it ok to throw CT from the opening and 2x empowered garrotes?
balmy condor
No
carmine island
oh soz, kinda new to rogue in general didnt familiarizymuch withj discord ty
balmy condor
Either donāt end with 5cp, or overcap for the garrotes
carmine island
ty vm š
balmy condor
oh soz, kinda new to rogue in general didnt familiarizymuch withj discord ty
Np, I try to put in as much info into the pins as possible
vagrant bison
Why so, this way you get more cp and 3 sec more of CT. Is the empowered garrote damage much stronger?
balmy condor
Yeh
Also gives energy
Like CT + 2 garrotes is probably fine
But just donāt run into that situation
gaunt mortar
@balmy condor by any chance could u link ur armory plz
balmy condor
Iām hella casual
gaunt mortar
lol damn i need to see a elitest armory for a sin rogue lol
fathom swift
casuals smh
balmy condor
lol damn i need to see a elitest armory for a sin rogue lol
Just look at logs
fathom swift
how elitist
vital tapir
lol damn i need to see a elitest armory for a sin rogue lol
yeah, wcl
gaunt mortar
oh ok ty
vital tapir
fathom swift
has aotc pog
balmy condor
Havenāt raided in 3 weeks
balmy condor
Yeah cba
snow breach
https://raider.io/characters/us/area-52/Wh%C3%ADspyr
Still in nihil I see, good times
fathom swift
doing mythic helps give more perspective for when you tc imo
balmy condor
Still in nihil I see, good times
Naturally
gaunt mortar
one question and then i wont ask anymore why did u do leggo for pants ?
balmy condor
Legs have more stats
balmy condor
doing mythic helps give more perspective for when you tc imo
Iāve done mythic before
fathom swift
nah i mean like
fathom swift
doing specific mythic bosses in the current tier helps give perspective for things like covenant or soulbind recommendations
not trying to shittalk or anything
theres tons of tc stuff where prog is completely irrelevant
gusty mirage
https://raider.io/characters/us/area-52/Wh%C3%ADspyr
oh I know this guy, he /laughed at me multiple times in sinfall 
gusty mirage
doing specific mythic bosses in the current tier helps give perspective for thin...
well thankfully TCs work together collectively to figure things out then eh?
snow breach
If the info is correct who even cares
kind talon
https://raider.io/characters/us/area-52/Wh%C3%ADspyr
A O T C
YOURE FUCKING WHISPYR
Goated š
balmy condor
Lmao
fathom swift
If the info is correct who even cares
i think ur missing my point
granite sail
I never played rogue max level much tbh, but because I have this talent tree idea I figured I'd pass this by you guys āŗļø
balmy condor
Uh oh
granite sail
So what if assassination, left a poison dot on corpses
misty holly
and then when undead cannibalize the corpse they get the dot too?
I like where this is going
granite sail
The poison damage is just wasted on a dead corpse
earnest remnant
waitin for the punchline
lament dove
the guards notice the corpse and got infected by the poison - oh wait, wrong game
misty holly
continues to tick to pad meters 
granite sail
I say because the subject dies the poison grows stronger and spontaneously combusts, but maybe an aoe.
misty holly
that sounds like a DK ability
balmy condor
That... sounds not useful
balmy condor
If something dies, the odds are, most of the other things are also dying
So if you kill something
Wait 3-5 seconds
And then it aoes
Thatās gonna have a ton of wasted damage
misty holly
It's a cool idea I think, but makes more sense for unholy dk
kind talon
so its like arcane mage
but instead of the poison being aoed
it happens when they die
granite sail
What if it was like a confusion poison... Ranged targets infected get deflected towards self or ally, at a cost or cooldown.
Like a pseudo mind control
vital tapir
Sounds Like a priest thing
vital tapir
Ye
vital tapir
But the suggestions are interesting
vital tapir
True
granite sail
I'd say it's useful but I don't play rogue really
vital tapir
Yeah
snow breach
Or just get mop smokescreen back
granite sail
Spreading poisons to multiple targets would be a blast.
balmy condor
Thatās what fok does
vital tapir
^
vital tapir
^
balmy condor
Waiting
vital tapir
I'm playing sub atm so idk if I Got used to shuriken s or was fok Always so bad
Like I've played assa in bfa
vital tapir
But I guess IT has to do with Target cap too mby?
balmy condor
Only reason fok was good in bfa was EB
Without it, fok was shit
Target cap doesnāt help, but itās just bad baseline
balmy condor
It doesnāt do damage, costs a fair bit of resources, doesnāt generate a lot of cp
kind talon
assa is amazing in raid
vital tapir
It feels kinda shit to press
vital tapir
Like at least ss generates those cps
balmy condor
Iāve said it a million times, fok 2cp base
kind talon
fok gens giga on 8 pulls no?
balmy condor
fok gens giga on 8 pulls no?
balmy condor
Sure
kind talon
if u crit
kind talon
ye fair enough
balmy condor
But it can
granite sail
Fok passive?
balmy condor
Fok passive?
What?
vital tapir
??
balmy condor
Or a rank 2 that doesnāt exist
vital tapir
Also sorry can't type faster on phone
kind talon
LOL
vital tapir
Lel
balmy condor
Or maybe another idea for a talent?
kind talon
58% ASSASSINATION BUFF? CHINESE DAMAGE HACK?
balmy condor
Or something?
kind talon
CHECK THE APL? WHISPYR HAS GONE INSANE?
vital tapir
58% ASSASSINATION BUFF? CHINESE DAMAGE HACK?
Only 7% away from It at this point
Iirc aura's at 51%
kind talon
yeah im just doing a callbac to earlier today
vital tapir
Kekw
balmy condor
Indeed
balmy condor
Weāre at 51%
balmy condor
21%
vital tapir
Lel.
balmy condor
Outlaw is at 13
balmy condor
Sin
vital tapir
Lmao
balmy condor
Itās like not even close
granite sail
Okay okay so what if it mind controls a dead ally?
vital tapir
What's the difference?
vital tapir
Okay okay so what if it mind controls a dead ally?
Dk suited ability
Idk how that fits into Rogue
granite sail
Isn't assassination supposed to be poisons
vital tapir
^
granite sail
I don't know really if I should make a big counter argument about it but poisons could do it too
vital tapir
Uhhh
vagrant bison
A poison that mindcontrols looks something pretty lame tbh
Leave that to the dark edgelords
balmy condor
Iām just trying to think of a reason to use it
vital tapir
Yeah
balmy condor
And Iām coming up with nothing
vital tapir
Like if anything
Make numbing useable on bosses
granite sail
But it's a cc
balmy condor
Like if anything
Make numbing useable on bosses
It is
balmy condor
But it's a cc
So is sap and blind and kidney and cheap shot and distract
And crippling
And numbing
granite sail
Sub sounds better with those anyways, it's wtv. Just my outside opinion.
vital tapir
Sub?
balmy condor
Iām getting lost
balmy condor
About why this needs to exist, what itās supposed to do, and how its used
vital tapir
^
granite sail
I'm just saying sub has sap too
vital tapir
Yeah?
granite sail
If certain poisons/toxins enter the bloodstream in the wow universe especially it could cause the target to become disoriented or like rabies deal idk š ...
granite sail
So it's a psuedo MC but not A MC
Ands it's a poison that's cool
I just think it's cool...
vital tapir
How is rabies a MC?
granite sail
It's a thing I tell ya
balmy condor
I mean if you think itās cool
Then more power to you
I just donāt see a practical application of any of this
vital tapir
Yep
granite sail
Well I guess this isn't very useful to you guys
vital tapir
Haste steroid is already BL / TW
granite sail
I mean you guys probably came up with your own solutions to any problems already
balmy condor
?
granite sail
So you like the fan and knives or what
balmy condor
I mean itās fine to have creative ideas about the spec and how it should change
granite sail
What do you suggest just out of your own personal experience or whatever
balmy condor
I just saying that your idea specifically doesnāt seem to āfixā a problem, and doesnāt really have an application
granite sail
So what's the main problem in your opinion?
vital tapir
I'd just want them to make our specs have a nieche
Think guy mentioned It before
Assa - execute
OL - AoE
Sub - St
balmy condor
Venom rush is a bad talent
vital tapir
But that's about it
balmy condor
Exsang doesnāt have help in the bleed department to be worth anything
Hidden blades is really boring
But like
Itās fine
vital tapir
Ye
balmy condor
Sin hasnāt changed in 4 expansions and the gameplay remains the same
It works, has some talent choices with consequences
The core gameplay fits
Spec is actually just fine
Borrowed power that gets added swings us back and forth between what does damage and whatās good
I think thatās fairly healthy as well
vital tapir
^
balmy condor
Just in bfa we had a poison build with envenoms and mutilate damage
Rupture giving agility for multidot dreams
We had exsang and huge bleed damage
gray fjord
18 billion haste
balmy condor
We had echoing blades and fok damage
slow marsh
My only complaint is that I can't press one button and do big dam like a boomie
gray fjord
The BoaT nerf will alleviate their garbo memes soon enough.
Though, not many abilities regardless of class will still compare with Convoke even after they nerf the legendary.
vestal wren
I think the general problems of balancing are just not as visible
gray fjord
Possibly, but it's hard to argue that a 2 minute cooldown that casts 16 moves (even if some are healing casts) is equal to our 1.5 minute cooldown that casts 1 mediocre move.
vestal wren
People only see class X/Y is ovepowered and assume its better designed
when it often comes from having a legendary power or other borrowed power that has 3 times the impact it has for other classes/specs
runic sequoia
prisma monolithBOT
Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ
gray fjord
Oh I entirely agree. I don't think Balance Druid is some absurdly strong spec in its own right, but when you have a covenant ability with strong synergy with your best legendary which can result in bursting upwards of 30k single target, it makes things look worse than they actually are.
Whereas assassination, being the predominant rogue single target specialization as of now, isn't exactly hitting those numbers while still performing well, despite it not getting quite the recognition it should.
vestal wren
The issue is, we seemingly carry on this bad balance, instead of fixing it blizz is seemingly just add new constrains
gray fjord
Even if it weren't for the sake of balance, it just doesn't feel good to see other covenant abilities perform so well compared to something as anemic as Sepsis. At least for me, it's part of why I switched to Necrolord.
vestal wren
assassination is now the best single target dps spec, it shows on wcl.
However people have a certain perception that its bad due to being undertuned at the start of the xpac
i mean the argument is "having something op feels better" and this is absolutely always true
sepsis is not strong by any means, its useless in multi target and performs in pure st about equal to what other classes do in pure st with their aoe focused powers
dark crag
Getting benched on farm at st bosses and then kills take like half a hour per boss
vestal wren
its objectively seen bad because other classes have abilities that are tuned way higher
gray fjord
That's the thing for me, it's just crazy how underpowered Sepsis feels. I think with the recent changes they've made good niches for Flagellation and Bone Spike, but Sepsis just seems like this off-product ability that has no real purpose other than to be a slightly-stronger-than-normal, cheap damage move on a way too long CD with no real benefits other than slightly more damage than just hitting mutilate/sinisterstrike/shadowstrike/etc.
vestal wren
the covenant ability alone is also not always the main factor you pick a covenant.
If it was we would have played kyrian all the time.
Soulbinds heavily impact what we pick and in 9.1 we possibly have covenant legendary powers too
kyrian was the strongest pick for us early because it was the strongest covenant ability, but once we got towards 30+ renown it fell behind due to having inferior soulbind powers
thats why we had a lot of people start kyrian and then switch to night fae
venthyr and necro got buffed to be compatitive what worked out overall quite well
but keep in mind that venthyr is mostly appealing because of the conduit
blizz in this case made venthyr appealing by making the conduit do more than the competing ones while making the baseline as strong as others
gray fjord
I am glad they at least gave Necro and Venthyr a fair and reasonable power increase with the reworks applied to each of the abilities, I guess I don't want to take for granted that we have an equal spread of viable options across the covenants.
I just wonder what the design logic behind some abilities is, more so than anything.
vestal wren
this probably highlights it quite well (even tho its subtlety)
conduits on rank 11 (9 + empowered in 9.1)
sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ed2fRR3YkozaWwtkyDEjTQ/simc
gray fjord
Ah I didn't realize the empowered was 2 ranks worth, thought it was only 1 (side note)
vestal wren
i am not sure, i just went with what some people in rh told me
gray fjord
I'd have to double check, I didn't do any numbers on it yet personally but I wouldn't be surprised.
vestal wren
9.1 in terms of power gain isn't even that good
you go from currently rank 7 to rank 9 in mythic and rank 10 or 11 with empowerment
we possibly go from ~2% dps increase to ~2.5 average whats not super high
gray fjord
I'd imagine that is just accounting for baseline gains and not the covenant soulbind traits and additional guaranteed potency conduit slot, of course?
vestal wren
it isn't even enough to beat the static dps soulbind powers
vestal wren
yes, the sim is just "no soulbinds" vs. the specific potency
a additional potency slot just changes what you need to set the dps soulbinds relative to
if you atm take a potency and a dps soulbind you set the soulbind relative to your 2nd best potency
in 9.1 you do so with your 3rd best
the 3rd potency could be fairly good for outlaw because in combinations that atm only use cto they could (if they go venthyr) use cto + scars
i only metion this because both cto and scars are above norm in terms of impact
gray fjord
Of course, yeah of all conduits across the 3 specs CtO is the only 'exceptional' one, with Lashing being just really strong regardless of what spec.
Though Sudden Fractures for Assassination does seem quite solid, just not quite Lashing Scars level even with Assassination buffing the bleed DoT.
vestal wren
necro could be more compatitive if blizz fixed its bugs
its overall still more multi target oriented
outlaw just has the issue that its compared to sub/sin now tuned lower in pure st
i am also still not sure if subtlety will see a lot of play, but i haven't looked to much into 9.1 systems
gray fjord
I have been meaning to test the subtlety changes personally, spent way more time than I'd like to admit trying to just stay on the damned PTR with how bad the servers were the past couple days just for testing legendaries. >_>
vestal wren
problem is rly that legendary powers are atm either buggy or partly even heavily undertuned (night fae)
north basin
i just want people start inviting rogues into m+. this bad perception thingy hit us hard. just deny deny deny in regular m+15 runs with 225 itemlevel and 1400 rio.
dunno how to revert trend
vestal wren
outlaw is stronger in m+
north basin
people dont even see which spec we are , just mass deny
vestal wren
and the amount of dps that apply is just to high, so if you don't have a very high .io score and itemlevel you have close to no chance to get invited
north basin
on the other side we have+27 cleared with rogues,
vestal wren
i watched mdi shortly yesterday
and mdi is "only ranged" meta with possible exceptions for dk in dungeons that can pull big groups
north basin
i have same geared same io mage, just insta invites. i dont need to wait shit, frustrating.
vestal wren
mage is currently op
its doing everything and way better than any other spec
there is a reason blizz nerfs them in 9.1
north basin
i bet owls and hunters have better % of invites in regular pugs,
vestal wren
playng one of the op will give you a easier time
north basin
lets see if nerfs change perceptions of global wow population
vestal wren
playing mage, balance or hunter is a easier invite to keys
our benefit is that almost all high keys run with one rogue
vestal wren
what means people don't judge purely on mdi meta
I don't think the xpac is any worse/better for melees in m+
its just that we had some op melee specs in bfa
dh and outlaw both did outperform
and dk when the pull size was good
melee wasn't better in general, it was just melee having some very strong options that did outperform
but thats the diffrence right now, almost all ranged options outperform melee options in raid and m+ (mdi setting)
agile geode
Fuu, of what king of bugs you were talking about before? About necrolord, werent them all fixed in 9.0.5?
torn atlas
Entirely anecdotal (probably also server population related), however I don't find it too hard to get accepted to a pug group. The struggle is being accepted to a group who actually has the ability to time a 15.
vestal wren
i think your experience comes down to your r.io
towards bugs, iirc sbs still can't crit on the initial hit for example
agile geode
Havent noticed lel
silver raptor
Checked logs just to be sure, but it can now crit on initial hit
Still acting weird with combo points sometime tho
vestal wren
oh, they possibly fixed it if thats the case (i am not up to date with sbs bugs given i play nf)
next shale
Hey! any night owls or eu/oce folks able to help me look at logs?
undone eagle
Guys does anyone know if stygia / soul ash will reset on new season?
tacit peak
Entirely anecdotal (probably also server population related), however I don't fi...
Yea I agree with @vestal wren on this. Once you get to 18+ keys youāre a popular choice compared to other specs
My friend is a similar io ele
And Iām way more successful
At getting a spot and ele pumps and has utility
Oh
stoic needle
Yeah I don't really have any trouble getting invited to pugs anymore
I'm only 1650 io
Just don't apply to groups that have melee already
torn atlas
Just don't apply to groups that have melee already
How can you see what class are already in the group? Add on?
stoic needle
Yeah I have a weakaura
limber lion
I mean I only have raider.io and elvui, and I can see what classes are in the group by hovering over it.
gloomy fern
strong saffron
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
stoic needle
mind linking the wa?
tacit peak
thanks mate
placid dawn
is it possible to cloak the jump from the second boss of HoA?
so that the dot from it doesnt destroy me if i dont get dispelled
mighty owl
cloak the curse that stuns you and step/sprint out of the jump
winter vapor
placid dawn
so, cloak if i get chosen, got it
flint anchor
quick question: should i hold flagelation for every vandeta or just fire-and-forget?
hollow escarp
2nd option
dark crag
If you don't waste a cast you can hold else fire and forget
stoic needle
Yep
stoic needle
No for all the classes
undone eagle
ah nvm i understood it wrong, just checked the logos
so basically season 2 will most likely spin around cov legendaries now
?
undone eagle
maybe they will be useful for m+ or raid, but not both for sure š it would be op
flint anchor
there is already a message pinned in this chat towards the new legos :)
if ya wanna take a look at it
undone eagle
cheers
stoic needle
Quick everyone ping whispyr
undone eagle
@balmy condor
limber lion
It was pretty bad.
undone eagle
rly
but blizz likes to buff and nerf things in notime so.. š we might see some changes
spice spire
Cev 
undone eagle
So you think 9.1 will come in june?
stoic needle
flint anchor
id bet on july (but dont hope) :D
hollow escarp
it's not though
ornate lake
Well half the blizz staff left so
stoic needle
Considering covid
hollow escarp
every game was delayed last year
undone eagle
wod v2
hollow escarp
can expect the same for this year
that's what happens when people farm the maw at work
stoic needle
Well half the blizz staff left so
They also fired half of the dev team
spice spire
Indie company meme coming true
āReject the modern ways of growth, return to indeā
misty zenith
Hello guys, coming from Feral to Rogue. Do you consider the M+ guide from Infexious a good primer?
spice spire
LMFAO
misty zenith
So his rotation is wrong or?
stoic needle
Pretty much the entire video is wrong
Watch a justruss video instead
Or ask questions here
hollow escarp
he is right about that sin rogue is fun
limber lion
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
hollow escarp
limber lion
^ those are good places to start.
misty zenith
He wasnāt wrong about garote 3 targets
hollow escarp
but you garrote 4
also token of appreciation is bugged or working weird
and gets you out of stealth
stoic needle
Double potency is just worse than wasteland prop
hollow escarp
yeah, we have shit conduits
undone eagle
Guys did the mention that curreny like stygia , soul ash etc will reset when 9.1 comes?
hollow escarp
isn't there a stygia mount in 9.1? 
stoic needle
Yeah, the new ranks will need a different profession upgrade item
stoic needle
isn't there a stygia mount in 9.1? <:hmm:678400567231512577>
I haven't heard anything about that
mighty bolt
Skipping the maw > being able to mount in the maw
mossy sable
id bet on july (but dont hope) :D
I got money on it
compact pumice
the maw is fun
I mean if feels useful killing elites and shit compared to doing that in the other zones. I just donāt like that youāre time gated so early when trying to farm Stygia. Iād rather farm 7200 Stygia in a row instead of having to do it every day preemptively
hollow escarp
so you liked islands?
I find the maw a bit better than farming horrific visions for sockets
mighty bolt
Tbh I felt the gear system so bad + Iāve been unlucky AF on my gear that didnāt farmed sockets, on bfa I got almost bis gear āsoonā so I didnt care to do a few horrific visions even if I didnāt like them
prisma perch
I have issues on st with the aoe build, when do we use CT in the st rota? after rupture ?
hollow escarp
those are covenant specific though
kind talon
true
hollow escarp
venthyr is always flagellation conduit 
kind talon
i run sudden fractures for all content rn
on both outlaw and assa with heirmir
lazy boys road to nowhere
limber lion
hollow escarp
wait, you don't play CTO?
kind talon
hollow escarp
as outlaw?
hollow escarp
ohh, so haste one for sin
flint anchor
conduitenergy?
kind talon
ye
vagrant bison
guys, is it worth applying a non 4 cp rupture if the target won't live for the duration? Example: Pride at 20%, my rupture is in pandemic range and i have 2-3 cp. Can i rupture with 2-3 cp or should i let it drop and reapply afterwards?
lavish grove
On raging weeks do you shiv for soothe or just shiv on cd for damage? š
flint anchor
kinda depends on the situation. for a mask in otherside i would 100% hold for example
flint anchor
guys, is it worth applying a non 4 cp rupture if the target won't live for the d...
if im not totally stupid thats totally valid
stoic needle
guys, is it worth applying a non 4 cp rupture if the target won't live for the d...
2-3cp is fine
stoic needle
On raging weeks do you shiv for soothe or just shiv on cd for damage? š
Shiv for soothe
limber lion
On raging weeks do you shiv for soothe or just shiv on cd for damage? š
Shiv on cd, save for soothe when necessary on big&bad prio targets.
limber lion
Heirmir
flint anchor
im still so torn between venthyr and necro, both makes fun T_T
hollow escarp
make 2 rogues, just like me
flint anchor
just. no.
hollow escarp
the only issue with the 2nd rogue is that it will probably never see mythic gear
flint anchor
Pog?
strange python
Epic
flint anchor
rip
vagrant bison
i also wanna try necro, but the venthyr dungeon buff is pretty good
placid cobalt
we actually pretty good at sire tho
stoic needle
turbid quail
ty cever
limber lion
:)
strange python
shiv and 3 sbs at the start of phase 3 sire 
all giving full combo points
anyone know the exact point when you stop getting the extra combo points in p3?
kind talon
can someone help me sim for execute phase š
limber lion
can someone help me sim for execute phase š
What's up
kind talon
i had a bit of an argument with a pepega lad
and i want to use sims to prove my mental superiority
kind talon
quiet spruce
How far behind is necro sin in M+ relative to necro outlaw? I rather play sin, but don't mind outlaw in M+ if it's just stupidly better
limber lion
So what was the argument about
limber lion
How far behind is necro sin in M+ relative to necro outlaw? I rather play sin, b...
They are similar in damage, Assassination just lacks the utility.
kind talon
it was about warriors execute phase
quiet spruce
Like gouge?
limber lion
Like gouge?
Yeh and acrobatic strikes.
kind talon
but i thought i could also sim assa execute phase as well
with zoldyck to see how much of an increase it would be on my profile
vs db
limber lion
I mean you can just use the execute patchwork in raidbots
quiet spruce
Gouge is pretty fun and useful. So I can see that. When is acrobatic strikes useful? I am asking cuz just got my rogue to 60 and Its my first melee.
limber lion
Just set the duration to like 3 minutes or something.
limber lion
Gouge is pretty fun and useful. So I can see that. When is acrobatic strikes use...
Always. The extra range allows you to dodge mechanics and deal with affixes easier whilst pumping damage.
A lot of melee specs suffer from having to move away from trash because of trash mechanics or affixes.
Which causes them to evidently do less damage overall.
Having the freedom to do damage whilst also not tanking mechanics is pretty big.
But Sin is good in that that we don't suffer that much from downtime either.
quiet spruce
You know what, that makes sense
limber lion
Outlaw also has more upfront damage, which might be more desirable sometimes.
quiet spruce
It was my first time being melee dps on the last boss of plaugefall and I kept standing in the middle puddle even with acro strikes when attacking the boss
carmine island
where can i find a in-depth guide? link in rules-and-guides is unavailable atm
limber lion
where can i find a in-depth guide? link in rules-and-guides is unavailable atm
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
quiet spruce
Didn't realize I could stand much further back
limber lion
Didn't realize I could stand much further back
Yeah, AS is huge.
It's also a necessary talent to play 24/7 because it affects your Blade Flurry range as well.
carmine island
!guide
links are not working (at least for me)
thats why i asked in first place xD
limber lion
thats why i asked in first place xD
That's why there's 3 guides and 3 links.
RH is down but the other 2 work just fine.
sinful island
Is it doomblade people play as assa now? both pve and pvp?
limber lion
Yeah pretty much, some people play MA in PvP.
You can ask about PvP specific stuff in #pvp
quiet spruce
If I want to dip my toes in all aspects of the game (ie. Arena/M+/raid) as necro sin, what first leggo is ideal?
sinful island
Ya thanks
quiet spruce
I know master assassin or w.e was good, but I hear it's being nerfed in 9.1
First leggo*
untold nest
MA still most versatile and decent in all content/specs
untold nest
I personally dont like it for sin m+
quiet spruce
Oh, what do you like then?
limber lion
I personally dont like it for sin m+
It's great when combined with Nightstalker, MFD and CT.
untold nest
I prefer zoldyck for that, and zoldyck also good if u are progressing raid
Which is why i didnt say its bad and recommended it as 1st option
And then said MY personal preference.
MA is good for outlaw also, so if u want to try both law and sin that works
quiet spruce
Okay sweet. Yeah I wanna try both outlaw and sin
jaunty nest
Hey just wondering since im making my second character are rogues sought after in raids?
quiet spruce
So it won't be a waste even when 9.1 rolls around and brings the nerf, you reckon?
limber lion
Hey just wondering since im making my second character are rogues sought after i...
Not really.
jaunty nest
fck
limber lion
Assassination rogue is pretty good as it's one of the best melee specs in the game for raiding
jaunty nest
rogues looks so fcking cool
limber lion
But... it's a melee spec.
jaunty nest
im bit new whats wrong wit meelee spec
limber lion
We don't have any raid utility or raid buffs or anything
Melee is just prone to doing poorly because of mechanics.
We lose uptime on the boss when we're forced to do mechanics
quiet spruce
Limit max had a good video on youtube recently explaining why only a couple melee specs see the light of day in prog raids
limber lion
Ranged players can easily do mechanics AND damage at the same time
We have to choose either.
jaunty nest
I assume rogues are for pvp then?
quiet spruce
I'll just tell you this, I rerolled from disc to lock and now to rogue recently. I want to raid, and I know rogues aren't the most sought after melee by high tier raiders, but that's fine. I'll find a guild that will take a rogue. I enjoy rogues.
quartz iris
We have to choose either.
that is only partially true. depending on positioning and some luck melee can do both. but yes by default some ranged has the advantage.
indigo mulch
Why is ravenholdt.net dead? š®
jaunty nest
yo u guys have a whole website daaamn
limber lion
I assume rogues are for pvp then?
They're good for PvP but don't get me wrong
Rogue is still a perfectly good class to play in raids.
quartz iris
quick question cause ive seen both, for rotation is it ven-flag-shiv-van or flag-ven-shiv-van?
limber lion
And most guilds have a rogue or 2.
jaunty nest
ok thanks
limber lion
quick question cause ive seen both, for rotation is it ven-flag-shiv-van or flag...
Doesn't matter. The simulation does Flag- Rup - Vend - Shiv - Vanish
It's very marginal.
quartz iris
ok. just weird as vend is a dps boost to your skills. i could see it being after the small setup of gar and rupture though
north basin
where is unique 5% crit rogue only aura buff? can they implement it mid xpac? we like the only melee without raidwide buff ?
limber lion
ok. just weird as vend is a dps boost to your skills. i could see it being after...
Yeh, I personally use it before Flag quite often but like said, it doesn't really make much of a difference.
quartz iris
where is unique 5% crit rogue only aura buff? can they implement it mid xpac? ...
we have always been a buffless class lol we bring the dps and cc
limber lion
we have always been a buffless class lol we bring the dps and cc
We don't really bring the cc.
copper salmon
We used to bring soaking 
quartz iris
well yea not anymore
limber lion
And sometimes not even the damage.
oak cypress
still run flag conduit for M+ or is there a betetr conduit?
limber lion
still run flag conduit for M+ or is there a betetr conduit?
Ye
quartz iris
as a whole though through wow history that has been our thing outside some utility and out of combat crap
it would be nice to get some love though. a raid crit buff would make sense even if it were only for other melee
limber lion
as a whole though through wow history that has been our thing outside some utili...
Not really. Maybe for dungeons or pvp, but we're specifically talking about raiding here.
quartz iris
yea raiding we suck
indigo mulch
Sadge
strange python
is droptimizer bad
compact pumice
Doesn't matter. The simulation does Flag- Rup - Vend - Shiv - Vanish
Actually sims do flag > rup > vend Iām quite sure. For the CP in flag
limber lion
Actually sims do flag > rup > vend Iām quite sure. For the CP in flag
Yep, my typo there
heavy trail
When i used flag as V it never gave combo points if that's what you are talking about? Just curious if they changed something.
earnest remnant
its just to get more combo points spend in the flag window
limber lion
is droptimizer bad
No, Droptimizer is great.
oak cypress
you run MfD on fort weeks? or not at all?
oak cypress
ah yeah im running Zoldyk leggo
limber lion
Yeh, just run Vigor.
MFD is fine as well, but it's just a lot more work for so little return
oak cypress
ok thank you š
sour wraith
It's fun though lol
fallen arch
candid pivot
whats everyones thoughts on stat ratios? right now im ilvl 222, and running: crit 26% (520) haste 22% (719) mastery 14% (0) vers 15% (585)
should i be dumping more vers for haste/crit?
should i change my haste gems/enchants for crit?
im seeing a lot of top rank rogues with different ratios, and im trying to figure out the thought process behind it
this is in regards to mythic/heroic raiding
pure moth
You have to sim it for the gear you have. Simming gives your best option.
balmy condor
They just sim and take whatās best
compact pumice
Do droptimizer for 220 gear and spam M+ for the big upgrades you can get. Sim for the vault you get each week. Before a raid reclear sim what upgrades you can get. Sim enchants/gem combinations with regular intervals.
candid pivot
yeah, ive been simming, but its just hard to know how accurate it is
balmy condor
Wdym
candid pivot
i mean that it doesnt take into account the mechanics of individual fights, and it doesnt really tell how how it hit that dps mark
and with top gear, you cant select all of your gear/enchants options that you are considering (too many iterations) - so it cant know the "best" loadout for your character
quiet valley
You can pay for it to be possible
vast forum
if you buy premium, you can have a much bigger sim
it's like 2$
also, no sim assumes mechanics
the only perhaps reasonable thing would be to drop haste if your uptime is low due to mechanics
candid pivot
oh i didnt know you could pay for that feature. thought the premium was just for droptimizer
vast forum
and not full drop, but just a little bit under the sim š
quiet valley
Still, assa isnt that hurt by losing uptime either
candid pivot
im pretty good with my energy management overall, as far as i can tell
quiet valley
Then you should be fine listening to the sim. And your stats look pretty good for raiding tbh
Or at least they are similar to mine and i have a lot of options in my bag that arent upgrades
candid pivot
make sense
was jsut curious about some of these rogues i see with really low haste, and tons of crit. i thought they may have been doing something i havent thought of
quiet valley
Its not that theyre doing m+? Think people are statting more crit and mastery there but i dont really play assa in keys so idk
Or they just dont have the gear to swap
candid pivot
oh really?
compact pumice
i mean that it doesnt take into account the mechanics of individual fights, and ...
If you want to see how it hit the dps you can do a Quick Sim and check the abilites usage. To inspect how it plays during shiv and vanish or using your trinkets etc
summer socket
I'm just starting to do 15s in m+ now and still pretty new to sin rogue. Is there any major tips for me to know when getting into the higher keys? If anyone has any tips it would he very much appreciated! Thanks in advance.
vast forum
ye, quicksim has a single iteration of ability usage
candid pivot
oh thanks anno
quiet valley
I'm just starting to do 15s in m+ now and still pretty new to sin rogue. Is ther...
Push you own key. You probably wont get invited to higher keys than you have done. Not a sin tip but still
brisk forge
Same dng on 15 as 25 š
oak cypress
is it worth running lightless force? or should i just run sinful+celestial?
thorny pond
I'd sim it. What content are you doing?
strange python
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
oak cypress
i was just wondering for M+ in general, wasnt sure how good lightless force actually is
quiet valley
Sinful loses value when you are swapping targets so my guess would be lightless (assuming m+)
But sim a dungeon slice
balmy condor
i was just wondering for M+ in general, wasnt sure how good lightless force actu...
double lightless is quite good for aoe
usually people run 1
but in more aoe heavy dungeons, I think double lightless is for sure the way
compact pumice
I'd actually think Lightless is better for Sin since you don't position yourself in the middle of packs like you do as Outlaw
oak cypress
i didnt think running double enchants was ever good
balmy condor
lightless works differently
the reason you don't double on sinful/celest is because they're buffs, and if they double proc, you're just over-writing the buff
lightless just creates aoe damage
so proccing that twice has no inherent downside
balmy condor
np
restive bluff
what are the best trinkets on sludgefist mythic?
and do i have to use my CDs on pull or wait for first pillar?
balmy condor
IQD/Dreadfire/Memory/Phial/Shadowgrasp/Chain are all good
if you're doing 4 pillars, you do pull/2/4, 3 pillar on heroic is 1/3
red bloom
What sort of overalls are yous hittin in 15+? Iāve only just crafted zoldies and floating around 6k
balmy condor
usually around 6.5
red bloom
Also not taking affixes into account
red bloom
Ah that makes me feel better then
quiet valley
Huge difference between dungeons as well
red bloom
All me mates are mega blasters pressuring me to be a pirate again
red bloom
Huge difference between dungeons as well
Yea I got that, only playing sl now a month but all caught up and trying to gauge where Iām at
verbal sparrow
Is shadowmeld still useful in raid ? On bfa you could refresh SS garrote with it iirc
restive bluff
is it a good idea to use both Dreadfire and Skullwing?
balmy condor
is it a good idea to use both Dreadfire and Skullwing?
on sludge? yeah it's fine
quiet valley
is it a good idea to use both Dreadfire and Skullwing?
Yeah that works fine
balmy condor
Is shadowmeld still useful in raid ? On bfa you could refresh SS garrote with it...
it doesn't proc subt, so no
restive bluff
thank you
verbal sparrow
pliant apex
Question reg inerva beam mechanic guys, img inc
So if I were green marker, I stand precisely like this between yellow marked circles? Right in the middle
Every time?
dark crag
pliant apex
Think I said same thing right? Just making sure I understand
halcyon zealot
just get there first so you can plant ur feet and make the other 2 do the moving, thatās the real strat
pliant apex
AHhhhhh icicicic
halcyon zealot
iām trolling btw.
pliant apex
Wait what
dark crag
The two far away guys can just afk while the double orb boi wiggles them lines
pliant apex
That sounded perfect itās not?
Do I just position myself between the yellow markers , please no troll guys trying to learn
Wiggles is obtuse, I wonāt understand
balmy condor
in the picture luhmi sent, you stand on the bottom
just like the screenshot you sent
pliant apex
Thanks , as always succinct and factual whisp bud
quasi ledge
Not in between. As you can see on your screenshot you should move a bit further towards the top of the picture as that angle for the bottom orb won't change, and it'll make your beam hit the other two orbs
pliant apex
Weirdly that means my job is easiest
dark crag
Yes
pliant apex
Yea middle isnāt correct term
dark crag
If both outer guys make their beam hit the orbs the double guy can freely move to hit both of his
pliant apex
Ok now confused again
dark crag
Post my pic to your guild
pliant apex
I somehow assumed the yellow orbs need to connected by beam
dark crag
A beam has to go through the orb
pliant apex
Yea but I was sitting in middle of yellow markers
icy ember
ya 1 side of the triangle has 2 orbs on it so you have to hustle to get it in
pliant apex
Not like pic I linked or the other one
I think you go to middle of yellow markers, and keep stepping back till it works ?
That should work yeh?
dark crag
It seems you are a bit over thinking it
thorn dove
As long as there is a line going through each orb you are good
quasi ledge
Depends. In your screen shot if you moved backwards it would make the line hit the far orb, but it would also change the angle of the bottom orb which is already ok
dark crag
That's why the far guys use their beam for their orbs so they can stand still to give the double orb guy the room to move freely
Or else it could happen that all 3 start to move to adjust and it takes longer than it has to be
stoic needle
All me mates are mega blasters pressuring me to be a pirate again
Blast as sin and show them what we can do 
dark crag
Go sub and show dominance
pliant apex
Well Iām the one blamed as trial when we couldnāt do beams right today
So have to overthink it
dark crag
Post them the pic maybe a few didn't attend math class, no joke
median aurora
if you're being blamed solo, that's them being wrong unless all other people in the raid did it perfect
dark crag
Ask them to name the form the 4 orbs build
thorn dove
This will help your guild, get them to play this http://www.gameviewer.co.uk/darkvein/
pliant apex
Iām pretty sure they did it right
median aurora
its all pretty hard to knwo w/o logs or anything to reference but, as a rough note (at least for us) is the one who goes towards the two orbs that are close together is the one that will be positioning around the other two, using the link that morraazz posted for reference; blue and purple make sure their lines are in the beam and yellow moves to line up the beams
limber lion
it swings back and forth, it's fine
It wasn't fine when me and Koji were talking about ptr a week ago
balmy condor
well obviously the situation changes the outcome man cmon
balmy condor
nothin happening tbh
median aurora
all my homies hate renown
median aurora
turbid harbor
limber lion
just lot of work
Work now, game when 9.1 comes out. :')
limber lion
But think about the moolah 
I'm unemployed because of covid, I can only dream of a 9-5 job
balmy condor
pliant apex
Iām in india situation reg COVID is horrible here
vestal wren
i think we move a bit far away from the channel topic
granite sail
What would you think about in combat stealth?
limber lion
Vanish?
vestal wren
you mean like afk standing for 10 sec would allow you to stealth?
sounds quite not enjoyable to word it nicely
granite sail
Like combat not breaking stealth for some time
balmy condor
subterfuge?
limber lion
Combat doesn't even break stealth.
mighty owl
shadow dance?