assassination

[kind talon]

nice

[odd hazel]

cant seem to get a IQD for the life of me

so

pog

[kind talon]

phial is amazing

decanter is fine

better than my trinkets

lolw

[stoic needle]

mastery with doomspike

[thorny pond]

Invest in mastery

To the moon 🚀

[stoic needle]

the real question is: doomspike bracers for 2nd leggo possibilities or gloves for stats

do i play the long game or the short game

[frosty bridge]

If the mini bosses on Sire are dying just quickly enough without vendetta should i just use it on CD on boss?

[thorny pond]

2 leggos confirmed?

[stoic needle]

no

[thorny pond]

[stoic needle]

indeed

but who knows

[thorny pond]

Maybe 9.2. Seems like a card they'd pull later

All the covs working together unlocks captain planet legendary 2nd item slot

[kind talon]

holy cow ye

thats pretty crazy

but no way that sbs sin will be the play in aoe when it flurries

sorry osho

[stoic needle]

idc

it's still gonna be giga

[thorny pond]

It's already stupid on PTR. No way it doesn't get tuned

[stoic needle]

if it doesn't flurry there's a very real chance it's not super amazing for law

[thorny pond]

Gemstone window with 5 spikes is gonna be giga with CT

[stoic needle]

god

5cp for 15 energy

[thorny pond]

So many damn bleeds

[stoic needle]

with the divine bell

and heirmir mastery

[thorny pond]

🚀

[stoic needle]

[thorny pond]

Mastery crit boi

Don't need energy regen when 5cp is 15eng

[stoic needle]

or just mastery IQD actually

[thorny pond]

Necro warrior for the banner too daddy. Keep your dirty PI

[stoic needle]

why not both >:)

[thorny pond]

Because for some dumb reason we'll never get it

Just PI and Fae me damnit

[kind talon]

this is like

suepr wrong

because the cp gen alone with 5 charges giving u 5-6 each

u could run DS over MFD and be getting more finishers

[stoic needle]

well like foreverguy said, it's going to be good for aoe but it still doesn't do much for ST

[kind talon]

ye

[stoic needle]

if it's not flurrying it may not be better than MA or celerity

[kind talon]

i mean it really depends

[grave dock]

I would be surprised if it doesn't flurry, given that baseline SBS does

[thorny pond]

My uncle could be a women but then he'd be my aunt. Gotta wait for tuning and flurry

[kind talon]

the question is whether it will triple flurry

[frosty bridge]

Well the flurry triple part is the broken one imo

[stoic needle]

'not flurrying' = 1 flurry

for each cast

[kind talon]

ye

[frosty bridge]

1 flurry probably means it wont replace DS/celerity/MA in m+

[kind talon]

but

[grave dock]

yea and i'm assuming it will do it for each cast

[kind talon]

flurry is based off of damage

[stoic needle]

its going to be absolutely fucking busted if it triple flurries

[kind talon]

so why wouldnt it flurry based on the damage you deal

[stoic needle]

i mean ngl i wouldnt mind

[frosty bridge]

Yep it would be mega broken

[thorny pond]

There's no way they let us chad out that hard

[kind talon]

it doesnt make sense for it not to flurry

tho

[dark jewel]

why some rogues running iqd on sire?

[stoic needle]

the only reason it wouldn't flurry is for balance reasons

[frosty bridge]

They can just make the other 2 spikes "mini"

[kind talon]

ye for sure

[frosty bridge]

or maybe the secondary spikes only do 50% or something etc

[stoic needle]

because IQD is the best on use trinket for sin when geared for crit

[thorny pond]

Like if the other 3 new leggos are hot garbage and we have this 3x flurry leggo there won't be any point to even add the other leggos

[stoic needle]

it'd have to be like 25% but yeah i wouldnt mind if they just lowered the damage

i think the kyrian one is going to end up being decent

[kind talon]

we dont

know about venthyr

or deathspike

or kyrian yet

[stoic needle]

4 7cp finishers every 45s

[kind talon]

the current sims are assuming a lot

[stoic needle]

there is NO WAY that is bad

i dont believe it

[kind talon]

and we arent simming kyrian

[sand sigil]

it does flurry btw

[limber lion]

You can easily get the stat proc from it every time.

[dark jewel]

so low haste = iqd good?

[gloomy knoll]

all iterations of the spike

bladeflurry

[kind talon]

right now

[gloomy knoll]

so you get a tripple bladeflurry spike

every single cast

[kind talon]

but we are talking about whether itll be nerfed

[gloomy knoll]

it's literally gonna be 3 outlaw rogues in M+ next season

if it go's live

[kind talon]

if it goes live

is the main point

yes

[stoic needle]

not low haste, just your crit has to be a higher rating than your haste. you can have 500 crit and 499 haste and it's bis

Unless blizzard is literally smoking crack cocaine there is no way it goes live in its current iteration with the triple flurry

[kind talon]

wait why

i thought iqd chooses from your highest 2

[stoic needle]

because iqd is guaranteed to give you your highest stat during lust

[gloomy knoll]

nah just your highest

[kind talon]

oh

during lust

didnt know

kinda cracked

[grave dock]

no, you can get 2

i'm like 95% sure?

[stoic needle]

during lust it's guaranteed to be your highest

[grave dock]

yea I meant outside that

[stoic needle]

it gave me crit every single time during lust during sludgefist prog

yeah outside of that it's top 2

[frosty bridge]

wait does lust haste count towards the highest stat?

[grave dock]

although I wasn't really sure about the lust thing

[kind talon]

no

[frosty bridge]

dang i need to get it, im at like 31% crit

[kind talon]

@frosty bridge

[stoic needle]

no because lust is %, iqd is just unique and coded to work that way

[frosty bridge]

Ah, i see i see

[grave dock]

hm

I need to test that

[cedar crater]

Some one tell me its a good idea to switch from OL to Sin

[grave dock]

i'm almost sure i've gotten my second lowest stat during lust on my shaman

[frosty bridge]

Would probably be sick for me then with 31% crit 16% haste

[stoic needle]

there's no way

[kind talon]

sin for st raid ol for aoe dungeons

[stoic needle]

226 iqd is better than 233 dreadfire for sin specifically

with high crit

[sand sigil]

yeah i tested it

i will link

[grave dock]

vantus runes also will throw off your IQD if you're a spec that doesn't like vers

[frosty bridge]

Is this the actual Jpc lol

[sand sigil]

no

[stoic needle]

no

[kind talon]

no

[stoic needle]

it's not

[frosty bridge]

Kek

[stoic needle]

[sand sigil]

https://clips.twitch.tv/HedonisticObliviousDogeOMGScoots-c2vFgGow1X2h2z3a

[stoic needle]

i'm the REAL jpc

[frosty bridge]

Isn't Jpc banned here

[sand sigil]

4 target btw

yeah he is

[low girder]

As is tradition

[kind talon]

yeah he is

[subtle tundra]

im jpc

[kind talon]

HOLY FUCK

30k

[stoic needle]

33k dps

[kind talon]

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO

[gloomy knoll]

yep not busted at all

[stoic needle]

we ww monks now boys

[kind talon]

ON FOUR DUMMIES

BTW

[stoic needle]

like i said

[kind talon]

nah its gg

[stoic needle]

if this goes live

blizzard is smoking crack

[kind talon]

nah but

it needs a buff

so

[stoic needle]

yeah actually it seems kinda dogshit to me

[sand sigil]

^^

[kind talon]

[stoic needle]

i think it should flurry for 100%

[gloomy knoll]

trueee

seems weak

needs buff

[vital haven]

i think the cleaved sbs should give you cps as well

[kind talon]

jpc dude did u hear about the venthyr for ol

it was gonna be so good but

[gloomy knoll]

it should also apply the dot

[stoic needle]

they should be stored up in a pool of cp

so you don't overcap and lose value

[kind talon]

sadly the cdr desyncs flag from your dreadblades

with the new venthyr leggo

sucks

[vital haven]

ye like that mop talent @stoic needle i like that

[kind talon]

feelsbadman

[grave dock]

30k burst in 15 seconds is not like, unheard of for other classes

but that's obviously very strong

and it's also up every pack

[stoic needle]

everyone knows that rogue is garbage if you overcap cp

[kind talon]

yes

its up every pack

i mean

warrior bursts for like

[grave dock]

fury's shit is almost up every pack

[kind talon]

12k on a pack like that

[grave dock]

no, higher

with AA and storm and first strike

much higher than 12

[kind talon]

yes

but it normalizes over 15 seconds

[grave dock]

not over 15

but over the course of a whole pack, yea

down to around 10-12 if the shit lives long enough

[kind talon]

ye

the issue with OL is

u get a charge bacj

[grave dock]

it has better ST than fury by a lot

[kind talon]

every time

[grave dock]

and every pack

yea

[kind talon]

one dies

so its just omega

[grave dock]

if it gets changed to only flurry once

[stoic needle]

imagine pressing buttons other than sbs bte dispatch bf ks

[grave dock]

it's going to be pretty niche in raids

[kind talon]

no

imagine NOT pressing dreadblades

idiot

[grave dock]

like it's already not that exciting on extended cleave fights

[stoic needle]

this legendary is weak. all the spikes need to hit a single target if there are no other targets to cleave to

it has no single target value. it's unplayable

[grave dock]

lol

[kind talon]

[stoic needle]

i'm submitting that feedback when i can get on the ptr

[kind talon]

ty

[grave dock]

I just

[stoic needle]

rogue deserves a 15% legendary

[grave dock]

I think part of the problem with covenant legendaries is that in many cases they make a covenant better at what it was already good at

you can see this with fury too

so it's going to create bigger gaps for ST/AOE content

and make you feel worse for not being able to swap back and forth for whatever is needed

[stoic needle]

i think that was their point

'meaningful choice'

[grave dock]

that's a pretty dumb point then

[kind talon]

u think

deathspike is only 15%?

gg

[fossil garnet]

any1 knows of a good combo point WA that stays the same size with or w/o DS? getting triggered that my CPs doesnt line up perfectly with rest of ui ^^ (dunno if this is right place to ask)

[stoic needle]

I mean there's at least a 50% chance we get the ability to freely swap covenants

[grave dock]

I think it's much lower than that this patch

[dawn ivy]

i just dont like the idea of venthyr being my bis in 9.0.5 but necro gets a leggo that makes it better in 9.1 but then we fix our APL and oopsie venthyr is better and now you have wasted a leggo and you gotta swap

[grave dock]

I doubt they'll bend that quickly

[stoic needle]

the jailer is going to 'break the balance of death' or whatever

and then we can swap whenever we want

[grave dock]

I think that's possible for 9.2 but unlikely for 9.1

just speculating though obviously

[stoic needle]

yeah

probably not in 9.1

[grave dock]

they fought people pretty hard on this in the beta process

[kind talon]

they just want a bad game

its fine

just watch the game die

seems worth

[dawn ivy]

feels like they knew they were going to introduce being able to swap later in the expac as something "new" for a tier so they didnt want to give in to demands

[kind talon]

yeah but its like

swapping covs would just be more fun

period

[dawn ivy]

exactly

which means they can hold off on doing that to use as a token at some point in the expac to drop and act like theyre giving us something nice

[kind talon]

yeah but the issue is like

they are planning design space way ahead of time

expac lasts 2 years

but the players drive the game, not the devs

so like, why limit yourselves to some shitty predetermined design space when doing it off the rip gives you more room to implement things later

that would be even more fun

and make the game even better

[dawn ivy]

because they dont have the manpower/time to implement entirely new things

they have the time to create tier sets which are already fleshed out on how they work and just gotta think of some passives, they can throw double legendaries at us one tier and everyone will be happy, they'll throw covenant swapping probably in 9.3 when they dotn care anymore

[stoic needle]

well the thing is

[amber mountain]

that, and then they ahve to balance it all too, and trying to balance classes that can switch entire power sets (soulbinds + covenant powers + transmogs that can +/- dps) is another resource drain

[kind talon]

ye but like

[stoic needle]

they were fully capable to let people swap freely at the beginning

[kind talon]

it would allow us to recycle content

tho

[stoic needle]

but keeping people from doing so keeps the game's engagement metrics higher for longer

[kind talon]

cant recycle content when ur locked into the same shit

[stoic needle]

so they have a business incentive not to do it

and then give it to us as a plot point or a 'reward' later

[dawn ivy]

^

exactly

[amber mountain]

but you're not locked in. You can change, which gives you another treadmill to run linearly, instead of in parallel

[kind talon]

but engagement metrics based on what?

[stoic needle]

it's really not even that hard to swap

[kind talon]

it takes 2 weeks tho no?

[stoic needle]

time spent playing the game. the dungeons, wq, etc you have to run to swap covenants

[kind talon]

2 weeely quests

[stoic needle]

and the renown farming you do after swapping

[amber mountain]

only swapping back to a covenant you've been in before takes 2 weeks

[polar cape]

Cant believe they missied on the 5$ instant cov change in shop tough

[kind talon]

ye

[stoic needle]

that's all very valuable metrics to them

well to the shareholders at least

[amber mountain]

put a lid on that kleftis, or it'll happen

[frigid kestrel]

Could take two days, depending on when you swap back, ye?

[polar cape]

2reset

[frigid kestrel]

Not saying it makes shit any better

[stoic needle]

it's still 2 days of playing 6+ hours a day you wouldn't have done otherwise

[frigid kestrel]

^

[stoic needle]

if you could just insta swap, you'd just swap between fights or raid/keys and raid log more

[kind talon]

ye

isnta swapping or 2 weeks

makes sense

[frosty bridge]

Guys

Check the Vendetta icon ingame

[kind talon]

could be 1 week ig

[frosty bridge]

is it bugged for you too

[kind talon]

ptr or?

[frosty bridge]

Nah normal

It's a little offset to the right for both my WAs and the normal icon

[dawn ivy]

vendetta on s3

get outta heeeeeeeere

[frosty bridge]

Haha

[stoic needle]

i love the vendetta animation

[kind talon]

fuck off all my class cds are on s3

[frosty bridge]

The little black bar on the left

[kind talon]

im a cracked gamer

[frosty bridge]

Is that normal?

[dawn ivy]

yeah its just the background of the icon

[kind talon]

ye

u can check wowhead

its the same

[frosty bridge]

omg it looks so ugly on zoomed weakauras

never noticed before

[stoic needle]

you gotta get the good icon pack

https://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info25064-CleanIcons-MechagnomeEdition.html

[gusty mirage]

[stoic needle]

they look so good ingame

[amber mountain]

"All icons were additionally upscaled using deep convolutional neural network magic. As a result, they are way bigger than original ones and provide better image quality when the higher display resolution is used."

that's some sciency bs right there

[stoic needle]

not really BS

i dunno what program they used, but neural networks to 'upscale' low res images is a thing

you could call it 'creative marketing'

[frosty bridge]

What's the highest Envenom you guys hit

it hits so hard i s2g

[balmy condor]

I hit a 7 mil envenom in torg

[amber mountain]

🙂 I work in video processing, the "deep convolutional neural network magic" is the marketing bs. But yes, neural network image scaling is a thing.

[halcyon lynx]

For legendary we want Haste + crit?

[dense axle]

what would the opener be for M+ Single target with Subt? Gar -> SBS -> Gar -> SnD -> Mute to Rupt -> Vend -> Env ----> Vanish when Gar is pandemic seems about right to me

oh, and CT in there somewhere

hmm

[stoic needle]

My highest envenom crit I've gotten since swapping to necro was 17k with no external damage buffs

I got a 55k envenom crit in mists the other day

36k on sludgefist

[balmy condor]

YIKES double garrote

[dense axle]

its been a while since ive played Subt

so Gar Mute Snd in opener?

[balmy condor]

if you don't need snd, you would gar sbs rup vend shiv sbs env sbs

[grave dock]

lol relax

[balmy condor]

otherwise you would gar sbs snd

[subtle kiln]

!bis

[stoic needle]

!scaling

[halcyon lynx]

Just bumping it 😛

[balmy condor]

yes

you want good stats

[halcyon lynx]

Thanks ❤️

[balmy condor]

and haste crit are good stats

[subtle kiln]

!pins

[fathom lynx]

i did a 23 k now on dummy just to see how hard i can get it - but didnt have elaborate planning up. maybe i can beat that

but probs nowhere close to that in raids

[stoic needle]

you can do higher with CT

i should hit a dummy in my m+ set and see how high of an env i can get

34% mastery

[fathom lynx]

wait am i an idiot - does mastery increase envenom dmg?

[stoic needle]

yes it does

[spice nymph]

I am sorry if this has been asked before, Im sure it has, is the execute leg. even worth on denathrius compared to the mutilate one for p3?

[balmy condor]

yes

[kind talon]

yes

[balmy condor]

zoldyck is more p3 damage

[icy ember]

hey when runnin heroic nathria just for shits and giggles, you want to run w/doomblade right cuz there is less execute time

[spice nymph]

thanks

[low girder]

30% is 30%

you run doomblade because it's more overall

[balmy condor]

^

[low girder]

and you're not worried about wiping to enrage

[balmy condor]

doomblade is just better

even on long fights

[fathom lynx]

you're right lol - iqd mastery + ns + doomblade + crimson tempest + prey on the weak + emeni + ep

[stoic needle]

hoooo my gawd

[fathom lynx]

i used to fish for giga envenoms in p1 of argus, kinda miss that

[stoic needle]

i need to do a mists key before prideful affix is gone

with ns doomblade

[vagrant hamlet]

Anyone know why cloak is bugged on M Sire? I've had it sometimes immune the spell and others not

[balmy condor]

cloak doesn't work on p3 massacre

just how it be

[indigo mulch]

^

[vagrant hamlet]

Doesnt work on p1 aswell sometimes

[frosty bridge]

MASSACRE is physical no?

[balmy condor]

well of course it doesn't work on p1 massacre

[vagrant hamlet]

Says shadow no?

[balmy condor]

cause p1 massacre doesn't exist

[vagrant hamlet]

Or Ravage

Meant Ravage

[balmy condor]

Idk if you can take the ravage hit, but you can for sure cloak the sauce

[vagrant hamlet]

I've had it immune the ravage one pull and the next it doesnt and it procs cheat

[balmy condor]

then don't immune the ravage I guess

[dull cloak]

you can immune the damage, but u still get choked

[vagrant hamlet]

Would help a lot with an immunity in p3 on the 2nd ravage overlap

[balmy condor]

that's blood price

nobody knows what mechanics are called

[vagrant hamlet]

Ravage is from remonia, leaves the blood in a alcove

in p1 and p3

[indigo mulch]

I mean if your dying to blood price your raid fucked up :X

[ionic kelp]

if you're having to immune ravage you already fucked up lol

[vagrant hamlet]

not in p3

Loads of people immune the overlap on 2nd ravage

[dull cloak]

cloak doesnt work on knockbacks, but i think it works on pizza slices

[balmy condor]

bro

[ionic kelp]

doesnt work on massacre in p3 for some shit reason

[vagrant hamlet]

Im saying it sometimes work on the pizza slice and sometimes it doesnt

[balmy condor]

yes

[ionic kelp]

and ravage it should work

never had an issue with it

[balmy condor]

massacre doesn't work p3, ravage should work

[vagrant hamlet]

Yeah should, but ive been hit multiple times in p3, aswell as the other rogue in p3

[balmy condor]

sorry to hear it

[pure moth]

You know where its going, so you'll have to pre emptively move

[vagrant hamlet]

Yeah obviously, but in the overlap in p3 it sure would help, since it should immune shadow dmg

If we live the overlap its a kill

[indigo mulch]

hmm

Do you really get 1min on Venthyr with the new leggo though. You need some insane haste levels to do it don't you?

[low girder]

not really, once it works as intended you get 1s per stack

[indigo mulch]

I only get about 20 stacks

outside of BL.

[balmy condor]

on average about 70 seconds

[indigo mulch]

hmm

20% vers and 20% haste is pretty yummy though D:

[halcyon zealot]

if you do the mechanic as intended you don’t need to cloak it

you got 20% vers in your assa gear? god damn @indigo mulch

[balmy condor]

he's talking about the lego

[halcyon zealot]

oh

[stoic needle]

Doing mechanics? Sounds like fake news but ok

[halcyon zealot]

reading helps

[indigo mulch]

My gear is trash though 😐

I've been raidleading from outside the raid since Council :/

[silent stratus]

first time sin for hungering mythic progress, I parsed grey. I died for the last 5 seconds but I believe there are other big fuck ups: any suggestion? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jtrHM3PVn9JdTzxw#fight=last&type=damage-done

[honest heath]

Just got back to rogue and was wondering if shiv is a soothe now. I remember reading something about that beginning of xpac

[frosty bridge]

With mind numbing it is yeah

[honest heath]

And is that for all the specs?

[balmy condor]

yes

[honest heath]

Alright cool. So I'm guessing in raging weeks we just keep mind numbing on for the whole dungeon?

If we have the soothe everything that is

[balmy condor]

yes

numbing is also just a defensive

doesn't do a lot but it's something

if your tank isn't kiting too much, like a gdruid

[icy ember]

ye they added us back to the pool of people that can dispel it cuz they felt bad for us

[balmy condor]

then you just keep numbing on 24/7

[wary ice]

Talk to your tank

Mine had me in crippling every key regardless of week

[honest heath]

Yeah true. But at least I know it's tied to mind numbing now

[halcyon lynx]

Question out of curiosity: Are we using Master Poisoner at all? Like WIth Zoldyck/ when needed for non lethal upgrade?

[wary ice]

No

[misty holly]

Wish I could help. I also parsed grey for Hungering. Maybe the higher parsing rogues are staying in with cloak for AoE phase. I usually do that on farm heroic and it gives a little boost to meters.

[hollow escarp]

Having an enhanced shaman in group is so fun

[misty holly]

but on mythic I use to cloak to do orbs and make the fight easier foe everyone else in the group. like a grey parsing scrub.

[wary ice]

Don't have time to look at logs but a near 7 minute kill is slow and anything above green is surprising

[balmy condor]

in pvp you can

but pve it's a dead talent

[halcyon zealot]

i looked quickly (limited time cuz i’m at work neglecting customers) but one thing you should try to do is have 5 CP built up before using vanish then going straight to an envenom, looks like you vanish > mut > env; which isn’t terrible but could be a dps loss @silent stratus

but that’s also not gonna make u go from gray to purple

[low girder]

it's not if you're running deeper

tbf i didn't check though

yeah he is

[grave dock]

you only cast vendetta twice on a 7 minute fight

you also have loads of just empty globals

[low girder]

idk why the shiv gaps are this long

you shouldn't do that

multiple times you went almost 40s

[rotund wigeon]

sludgefist mythic: double shadowcore oil OR mh: shadowcore / oh: stone OR double stone?

[balmy condor]

!oil

[prisma monolith]

Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ

[low girder]

also wasted 6 CPs between mutilates and 1 garrote overcap

[halcyon zealot]

in theory 2x oil with phantom fire is prob better but it’s so rng i usually just always 2x stone

[low girder]

full envenom there

can also get garrote uptime up a bit

missed a skulker's cast too

those are the major points i think

[grave dock]

also only used 14 bone spikes on a 7 minute fight

[low girder]

i didn't comment on the bone spike because i'm not necro and don't know the use

[grave dock]

supposed to never cap on 3 charges but outside of that spend charges inside shiv/gemstone procs

and you spaced them out instead of concentrating them during shiv/gemstones

[halcyon lynx]

SBS in shiv? I get the gemstone, but why in Shiv? Its not doin nature dmg. Or is it for pure CP generation?

[halcyon zealot]

CP for an extra envenom in the window i believe

[grave dock]

more efficient CP generation yea

[stoic needle]

if you spend them during shiv and gemstones you'll never overcap

[halcyon lynx]

Uhh I remember reading about it, but cant find it now... Zoldyck buffs SBS dot dmg right?

[stoic needle]

i think technically you're supposed to do it in gemstones only

hmm actually no you need to use 1 in your 2nd shiv at 30s

so 1 on pull, 1 in 2nd shiv, then 3 in gemstones, then after that dump only in gemstones?

cuz gemstones is every 60s and shiv is every 25s

[burnt latch]

Hey guys. Just got out of SLG prison today and starting sire progress on sunday. I was wondering if there is ever a scenario where you would run CT over PB on progression?

[balmy condor]

you would

because movement favors CT

[stoic needle]

ct seems to be better p2 damage and not much of a loss on pure ST in p3

[balmy condor]

and CT is good

[burnt latch]

Ah so its actually recommended to run it instead of PB?

[balmy condor]

yes

[stoic needle]

this assumes you're running zoldyck

ct is slightly worse with doomblade

[desert jungle]

Stupid question, what are gemstones you guys were mentioning for the sbs casts?

[halcyon lynx]

Bonesmith trait

In the last row

[sacred flax]

why not hidden blades for sire?

[desert jungle]

Ohh thank you

[balmy condor]

hidden blades is dogshit

[burnt latch]

Fair enough. Then a question related to that. If I have Shiv come off cd during p1 where I want to CT all of the adds, or during P3 where im cleaving on 3-4 targets, do I still follow the rule of not applying CT in shiv windows and just shiv on cd into envenoms?

[burnt latch]

And yes im running zoldyks

[balmy condor]

in aoe you would apply CT

the CT in shiv thing is a single target rule

[burnt latch]

Ah okay, but I still do press shiv on cd, just won’t neglect CT because of it?

[balmy condor]

yes

[burnt latch]

Thanks boss

Very helpful

[low girder]

oh

FUCK

[silent stratus]

Thanks - what do you mean with empty globals?

[low girder]

figured the adds living for 2s would mean envenoms were better

[balmy condor]

[low girder]

doesn't really matter i guess

i'm not there for p1

[balmy condor]

empty globals mean you're not casting shit, or hitting shit, when you should be doing 1 of those 2

[silent stratus]

So is it fine to van mut env with deeper or should I van > env 6cp wth deeper?

[low girder]

it's fine

you only get one envenom in MA if you run deeper

[silent stratus]

that also assume I'm not pooling?

[low girder]

so even if you vanish mut mut envenom

still fine

assuming you don't overcap

[silent stratus]

while if I dont run deeper, I can 2x env in MA?

[low girder]

yeah

it's worse on ST though

[silent stratus]

sometimes my shiv was up during consume or expunge

how do you play in those situations?

[low girder]

those are only like 5-10s

shouldn't create a 40s gap

[stoic needle]

Tbh I would just shiv and then move

It's better than holding shiv

[silent stratus]

I believe it's more than 5-10s

thats why

is it worth to just shiv then?

[low girder]

it shouldn't be, consume is a 6s cast

i would just shiv yeah

you'll still get some value

from poison ticks and whatnot

[rotund wigeon]

other question, would you refresh rupture at 5sec with 5cp or try to held envenom up with 4cp and afterwards refresh?

[silent stratus]

regarding lady inerva, I noticed max going ST build w/ EP

what do you guys suggest? or what sims should I test?

[halcyon zealot]

you should refresh rupture ASAP after it pandemics

[silent stratus]

EP MA & PB

[stoic needle]

Yeah that's fine

You can run ct on inerva but I'm not sure if it's worth

Since adds will be stacked you can usually hit them with pb

[brave vector]

Seeing a lot of logs using CT on sire, is that just for p1 adds?

[rotund wigeon]

dunno, i will catch rupture usually at 1-0sec but still have envenom up

[low girder]

can also take vigor over DS if you want

if you're going EP

on inerva

[brave vector]

Cause they die almost instantly in my raid so if that’s the only reason then meh

[silent stratus]

@low girder why is that?

[low girder]

easier to play without free CPs from blindside

might sim higher than deeper on cleave too idk

i forget atm

[silent stratus]

for me 2boss patchwerk, EP + Deep + CT sims better

but idk that's representative of inerva fight

do you know which other sims would represent it better?

[silent stratus]

yesterday I did sire w/ another sin that used aoe adds, and that was exclusively for p1

he ended up being #9 on p3, and #3 on p1

pretty much useless if ur in prog

I was #2 in p3

btw heroic but I believe still holds in mythic

[low girder]

better in p1 and p2, if you run zoldyck it's also a wash in p3, with doomblade it's a loss in p3

talking mythic obv

and in terms of sims it's probably closer to cleave add but idk if even that's representative of inerva, maybe @balmy condor could comment

[silent stratus]

regarding the shiv window, should I refresh my dots before to maximize the env - mut?

I usually find myself to garrote and rupture during shiv

[halcyon zealot]

if your dots are in pandemic or are going to fall in shiv - refresh during shiv, i don’t think it’s worth to refresh before shiv if they aren’t in pandemic

but, usually if you’re consistently running into the problem of them falling in shiv window, you probably messed up somewhere earlier in the fight

[mild horizon]

yooo best race for assassination?

[cerulean nest]

300 meter dash

[grave dock]

if you look at your opener for example, you pressed rupture at 6.5 seconds, then didn't press another button on the GCD until after 10 seconds into the fight

[silver shore]

Worth getting both doomblade and Zoldyck for Raid/M+ or is outlaw just super outclassing Assassination in M+?

[hollow escarp]

Mechagnome

[silent stratus]

what if I was pooling for evenom?

trying to guess, I don't remember

[grave dock]

you weren't

the next global was shiv

[silent stratus]

would you never pool for shiv? only env?

I was thinking to pool for shiv so I can maximize the # of muts / env

[halcyon zealot]

you could pool for shiv, but i’m pretty sure in any scenario a 5 second pool is severely overcapping your energy

[grave dock]

pooling for shiv is fine but that's almost certainly too much pooling that early in the fight

[halcyon zealot]

unless u have 0% haste

[grave dock]

you wasted 500 energy on the fight

although part of that is probably the consume phase and ticks

[silent stratus]

yes I can see, I often regret having pooled for shiv bc I see that I end up overcapping

but I believe missing vendetta is what fucked up me mostly

[grave dock]

yes, 2 vendettas in 7 minutes is a huge loss

[stoic needle]

Pooling for envenom is pooling for shiv

[low girder]

^

however pooling doesn't mean overcapping

[grave trail]

As sin rogue whats best way to survive sire knock back/massacre/seed overlap in p3? Shadowstep to dk or cloak the knockback (if possible)

[low girder]

can't cloak the knockback

step the DK or get a bop, that'll ignore the knockback

won't help on massacre hits though

[grave trail]

Gotcha, so best play is to Shadowstep a Dk? Bop already being used

[low girder]

yeah, that or cloak and get knocked into the red

and then run out

the existing red, idk if it'll work on the initial ravage hit

[grave trail]

Yeah like outside the "ring" red? Not the ravage red?

[low girder]

nah the ravage red

[grave trail]

Ok

[low girder]

just the one that's already down

because i'm not certain if the initial ravage hit from the one that's happening there goes through cloak or not

[turbid mulch]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

In general simming yourself is the recommended way to determine stat weights.
The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simulation.
Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[grave trail]

Ok cool ty for tip Mata

[low girder]

hopefully it goes better for you than it has for me

[grave trail]

Hopefully, guild wants to kill tonight so cant die there ty

[slow wadi]

i just did it with cloak always

[grave dock]

I keep seeing people say this, and only sort of understand it. pooling for envenom creates some amount of excess energy after you envenom, which makes sense. but if you're just pounding shiv on CD, you might shiv after, say, mutilating twice. if you aren't pooling before those mutilates, you aren't really pooling for shiv, unless i'm missing something

[unkempt ginkgo]

Why do people use vigor over DS for sludgefist?

[outer granite]

Could someone clarify why so many people are running necro for pvp assassination if venthyr's single target is higher?

[ionic kelp]

cause bs/ds is more dam

[halcyon zealot]

I think EP outperforms BS on sludge, as a more controlled dmg amp for pillars rather than prayin for a BS proc, and i think vigor has better synergy with EP than DS does, since you’re finishing more often. that’s my no math answer, just thoughts.

[unkempt ginkgo]

makes sense

is double on use better or phial / on use

for sludge

[halcyon zealot]

i use phial / memory of past sins for sludge usually, but we have a few others who use sins so it’s good value

[bronze fiber]

what lego do you guys run in pvp

[low girder]

#pvp but probably doomblade

[uneven plume]

shadowgrasp/phial is filthy on M Sludge

[kind talon]

ok if you're in pandemic refresh window

with a few seconds left on shiv

and max cp

refresh window for rupture*

do i refresh rupture or prio envenom with shiv, even if i lose rupture uptime?

[stoic needle]

if the rupture will last the rest of the shiv duration and long enough for you to generate some cp to refresh it, envenom. if not, refresh rupture

[stoic needle]

suvivability

[stoic needle]

if you pool on envenom properly, you won't run into those situations where you are mutilating before shiv very often. even if you do, it's not a huge deal. the difference between no pooling whatsoever and perfect pooling is literally like 30 dps so those few situations where you have to mut before shiv won't have much of an impact

[grave dock]

yes, I understand it's marginal

[stoic needle]

technically you're supposed to pool on mutilate too but it's so marginal it's not worth doing or even mentioning

[grave dock]

but whether or not the shiv GCD falls after envenom or after anything else is pretty random, given how often shiv is up, and given the RNG in the rotation with blindside, seal fate, etc.

pooling does make it more likely though

I understand the basic point regardless, was just kind of a language precision question

[stoic needle]

with blindside you're more likely to have energy available for every shiv because it costs nothing and gives CP

[kind talon]

if u pool for env

then it goes env double mut

and u pool again

so pooling for envenom is the same as pooling for the mutilates

essentially

[grave dock]

to a degree, yes

[kind talon]

[grave dock]

I understand the multiate/envenom cycle

[kind talon]

arcane torrent while pooling

its so simple yet i had never thought about it

wow

legit giga brain

[grave dock]

the question was more about what happens if shiv lands on a random GCD in between the envenoms

but oshoi basically answered it

[kind talon]

p sure u just press it

but ye

[grave dock]

yea you do

[kind talon]

so i refresh rupture during pandemic if it will fall off before shiv

[supple pelican]

you have dots + envenom buff up and 5/6 cp? you pool

[kind talon]

instead of pressing envenom right

[supple pelican]

outside of MA uptime ya

[kind talon]

ye

MA uptime

[supple pelican]

kek

imagine

[kind talon]

imagine running into

pandemic

during MA

[supple pelican]

some fights are weird tho

donnie bp3 can be super weird with dot uptime if you had a rly rly bad opener

(on mythic)

[kind talon]

ye idk havent fought donnie mythicso

[supple pelican]

rupture will be like 3 seconds, shiv is off coming off cd, and envenom is falling

god damnit

[kind talon]

shiv mut rupture build to envenom no?

in that scenario

unless im missing something

[grave dock]

missed garrote

[kind talon]

he didnt say garrote

but in that case itd prolly be like

shiv garrote rupture?

idfk

is it a dps loss to rupture with 2 over letting it fall off or?

[arctic gate]

hey guys is it possible to macro mut & ambush together?

[kind talon]

idk why you would

you mut from stealth

[balmy condor]

!bs

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[kind talon]

unless youre necro

[arctic gate]

oh shit ty

[arctic walrus]

@balmy condor yo

[balmy condor]

np

yo king

[arctic walrus]

yo yo

so like

this dope ass gemstone

[balmy condor]

straight rocks yuh

[arctic walrus]

is this shit worth holding stuff for dawg?

[balmy condor]

sbs

[arctic walrus]

that it tho?

[balmy condor]

yuh

[arctic walrus]

aight bet mofucker

[balmy condor]

sbs has charges

charges easily held

everything else no charges

no charges means losing uptime

[arctic walrus]

yo a smart mofucker

[balmy condor]

losing uptime bad

[arctic walrus]

what about

[kind talon]

isnt it bad to macro mut to ambush

[arctic walrus]

sbs inside vend/shiv window

[kind talon]

cause u might ambush at full energy if ur pooling and shit

[arctic walrus]

seems kinda bait if u ask me

[balmy condor]

sbs in shiv is pretty gud

[kind talon]

with the macro

[arctic walrus]

shit man but my double dose procs

[balmy condor]

unluckifortunate broham

[kind talon]

shit man but the energy cost brothermen

[solar hare]

Unluckifortunate

[uneven plume]

on m sludge, do we still pool 140 energ before envenoming?

[balmy condor]

pillars are empowered envenoms

empowered envenoms are slams

so you go michael jordan

come on and slam

[uneven plume]

so is that a yes?

lmaooo

[balmy condor]

is water blue

[stoic needle]

you want to pool between the pillars, but dump right before a stomp

[solar hare]

What has happened to whyspiar

Hes corrupted

Put the cat ears back on

Pls

[echo cargo]

Wait cat ears

@balmy condor send pics

[balmy condor]

nah

[gusty mirage]

this took a turn I never knew I needed in my life

[low girder]

this is one of my favourite interactions

[fallen current]

That’s amazing.

Whispyr is my hero for that.

[kind talon]

i have a question

could i use rupture here if i cap with sbs muta

like could i go sbs mut rupture garrote snd into vendetta?

or is there a way for me to see cp in sim?

cause im assuming its casting mut because sbs genned 1 cp only but im not sure

[halcyon zealot]

that wouldnt matter because of Cut to the Chase, assuming your first envenom is within 12 seconds from that 1cp SnD, which id imagine it is. Idk the answer to your other question though

[kind talon]

ye it was

the first envenom was at 9 seconds

so why is the sim casting snd third

very weird

[balmy condor]

wait whats the question

the snd third?

[kind talon]

yes

[balmy condor]

snd third because 1cp from the sbs isn't enough cp

[kind talon]

but first envenom is at 9 seconds

[halcyon zealot]

wait how

[kind talon]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qoNTmAxeHK6yixvyjVSJwW

[balmy condor]

because the APL that I wrote is snd at 3

[halcyon zealot]

oh haha

[kind talon]

ah ok

but should i be casting snd with 1 cp or?

[balmy condor]

it goes back into this

!mut

[prisma monolith]

Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.

[halcyon zealot]

so thats a necro only situation id imagine

[balmy condor]

and all of the things that are affected here

[kind talon]

im necro so

[balmy condor]

the value of energy and combo points isn't always the same yeah

just as a basic example, energy is very valuable in single target compared to cp

[kind talon]

ye

[balmy condor]

but cp is way way way more valuable in aoe

because you're multi-dotting and drowning in energy

that difference in situation giving more or less value to cp/energy, is the key to ambush vs mut, snd openers, when cooldowns are popped, etc etc

ambush does twice the damage, so why not use it

because the damage isn't worth it

[kind talon]

yeah thats not my question though

[balmy condor]

the cp and double hit from mut is more worth

I'm getting there

[kind talon]

ok

[balmy condor]

this isn't an easy explanation

so I'm working up to it so I only have to explain it once

[halcyon zealot]

[balmy condor]

in your opener, the thing in question here, CP is very valuable, just like mut vs ambush

you're looking at things like alacrity, getting up your dots faster/earlier, etc

so when you're asking "why not snd on the second gcd always"

the answer is "there are factors that make the extra cp, more worth"

slice on 2 might be fine for 1 iteration

but a slice on 2 is a lower chance for alacrity, it's less energy efficient, it's got layers to it

and so while technically, slice on 2 is better

[kind talon]

ah true

alacrity

[balmy condor]

when looking at the tens of thousands of iterations

on average

the factors that determine all that shit

it comes out lower

so the line slice_and_dice,if=!buff.slice_and_dice.up&combo_points>=3 which only is ever cast once in most sims

is a bit of a magic number

but that's the number that I found to be the best balance of getting up snd early enough to not have a waste of uptime

and also with enough cp to make it worth the cast

[kind talon]

so do i cast snd on 1 2 or 3 lol

[balmy condor]

you can snd on 3 or more cp

sbs never gives you more than 2

with a lowest of 1

[kind talon]

sbs crit gives 3 no?

[balmy condor]

not the first

[kind talon]

it does sometimes

its bugged

[balmy condor]

yes the bug does that

it's not reflected in sims

because fuck that

so strictly speaking, minus the bug

[kind talon]

its supposed to give you 2

baseline

the bug is that it gives you 1 baseline

[balmy condor]

other way around

it's 1 + 1 per active

you cast the sbs, none are active, so you get 1

the bug is that the calculation can sometimes happen after the ability already hit

[kind talon]

ok

got it

[balmy condor]

which means that the first cast, which says "none are active" actually sees an active one already on the target

thus giving you 2

and with a crit, will give 3

[kind talon]

is there a way

for me to see how much cp was genned in logs

[balmy condor]

the sample screenshot you linked is just an easily digestable version of this:

so yes

you can find that under the action priority list, sample rotation

or sample sequence?

not sure what it's called tbh

[kind talon]

so it gave 2

got it

[balmy condor]

indeed

[kind talon]

you said technically slice on 2 is better

but what if i get cucked and get 1cp

from sbs, do i still snd? or do i mut for alacrity?

[balmy condor]

I said it CAN be better

there's no guarantee that it is

[fiery fable]

what talents would i bring for mythic sunking?

[balmy condor]

the whole reason it's 3 is because it's on average, the best option

[balmy condor]

EP/vig and BS/deeper are both fine

[kind talon]

yeah i understand the sim

now im asking for a practical rule to follow

from my sbs

thank you for all the explanations btw

[balmy condor]

the practical rule is snd at 3+ cp

anything more than that is trying to ultra-instinct past the levels of even the bot

[kind talon]

so do i sbs from stealth or mut?

[stoic needle]

Wtf so sbs is bugged the opposite way? Lmao

You sbs from stealth

[kind talon]

im looking at logs where a necro assa mut from stealth

[stoic needle]

I mean its not a huge difference either way

But sbs from stealth gets the dot up immediately

[kind talon]

ye

but mut from stealth gets snd up gcd 2

snd

[balmy condor]

it's a positive bug, yes

[stoic needle]

Well I just sbs SnD mut

Even if it only gives 1cp

[kind talon]

wait

[balmy condor]

also fine

[stoic needle]

What a janky ass ability holy shit

[kind talon]

so sbs is always bugged on multitarget?

that means its literally always bugged

except for the first application

there's no way thats stayed live for this long

[balmy condor]

the problem is that it can count the spike you're throwing, into the cp that the same spike gives

that's the root of the entire bug

[kind talon]

yeah but it always does it on aoe

it only sometimes does it on st

[balmy condor]

nah

[kind talon]

oops

first application

vs 2nd/third on aoe

[balmy condor]

those work fine afaik

[kind talon]

lemme do some dummy

rq

[balmy condor]

second spike in aoe is 2 cp + seal fate for 3

third spike is 3 cp + seal fate for 4

[kind talon]

nah i know this from outlaw

not assa

from m+ aoe

or at least it has been my experience

[north cobalt]

do you EVER open with ambush? or do you only use it with blindside?

[kind talon]

one

[balmy condor]

only with blind

[north cobalt]

ty

[kind talon]

two

outlaw, no seal fate

[balmy condor]

yeh that's bug

[kind talon]

the bug always happens on subsequent applications

[balmy condor]

whack

[kind talon]

which is why most of the outlaw community has come to believe that

the intended way its applied is, dot first, cp second

[balmy condor]

yeh I'm fairly certain that's not supposed to be the case

[kind talon]

and tbh i can see both ways being valid from the tooltip

[balmy condor]

but none of us are blizzard

so I guess

it's still a super jank ass ability

[stoic needle]

Right so I won't bug report this one then

[kind talon]

its only janky on first application

but yeah

[balmy condor]

there's even cases of it missing out-right

[kind talon]

wdym

missing?

[stoic needle]

Sbs can be deflected

[balmy condor]

yeh

[stoic needle]

And not apply

[kind talon]

oh yeah

u can get parried too

thats not a bug tho afaik

[balmy condor]

on top of that

you can get the dot to nightstalker

if you do it right

[stoic needle]

https://clips.twitch.tv/WildPeacefulSaladFutureMan-Kgcxn4V7l76h3gR1

[balmy condor]

and that's really why I think the bug is that it's giving too much cp

[stoic needle]

So how do you ns the dot

[balmy condor]

the most consistent, but still inconsistent way, is to stand at a change of elevation

and fire a bolt diagonally

[stoic needle]

Lmao what in the fuck

[kind talon]

wait does snapshot still exist?

[balmy condor]

the steeper the better from what it seems

[balmy condor]

the bonus damage from subt/nightstalker is technically snapshot to that instance of the dot

and exsang snapshots haste

[kind talon]

wuhhh

[balmy condor]

normally, nightstalker into sbs

makes the instant hit do 50% more

[kind talon]

but the bug can make it do perma 50% more with the dot?

[balmy condor]

but if you're at a difference of elevation, sometimes something something code jank timing nonsense

[stoic needle]

What if you jump into the air

[kind talon]

or is it just the first tick?

[balmy condor]

it's the full dot

until you cast another sbs

[kind talon]

wtf

OH

ohhh

ye

[stoic needle]

Jumping into SBS

[kind talon]

not viable then

[stoic needle]

We fire mage now

[kind talon]

too bad

[balmy condor]

usually not high enough from what I've seen

[stoic needle]

It could be giga with deathspike

[balmy condor]

but yeh

[stoic needle]

Triple ns dot

[kind talon]

why are you playing assa with deathspike in the first place

trolling

[balmy condor]

the fact that the baseline on the Nighstalker thing is the spike hitting first, then the dot applying (where as the nighstalker bug is dot first, then the spike), makes me think that the cp bug is actually similar in nature where it calculates the dot first, then the spike

and if it gives a cp because it's looking at dot first, then spike

that means the bug is giving too much cp

rather than sometimes not giving you enough

[kind talon]

well, ive heard in the outlaw channel that its intended to apply the dot first

and then count the cp

[balmy condor]

and you'll see that if you spike 1 target, and then spike it again, it gives the intended 2 cp

[kind talon]

its easier to see as outlaw but in multitarget its consistent

its only inconsistent on the first application

[balmy condor]

imo, consistently wrong

[kind talon]

ill stream it for you

[balmy condor]

inconsistently correct

[kind talon]

i mean idk

what the intention is

however, it makes sense to me that the ability would hit and apply the dot

both before generating cp

however whats happening is that sometimes the calculation for the cp is happening before or after the dot is applied

[balmy condor]

yeah

I mean you can argue both ways

I just find that given the evidence, I tend to believe that the spike should be hitting first, as per nightstalker snapshotting

[kind talon]

yeah but

imo they should hit at the same time

not at different times

given the wording

[balmy condor]

sadly impossible

[kind talon]

the fact that it says

and