assassination

[stoic needle]

from what i've seen CT isn't entirely necessary, pb does decent cleave damage too and if the tanks stack it properly it hits both

[cold sparrow]

ok, I will only do EP + SF today then, dont wanna troll too much lmao

[sour wraith]

It probably evens out between CT and PB since Barghest is moving out a lot and then after the third pet dies it's pure ST

And you want to ST down the shades

[stoic needle]

yeah it's not a bad idea to start out with just ep+subt and then bring in CT once you're comfortable

there's some pretty huge parses on huntsman still with PB

[whole mason]

stone for all, agi for zoldyck period, phatom for other

[cold sparrow]

Thanks a lot for the help, much appreciated!

[gusty mirage]

I’d run agi regardless as assa

PF kinda doo doo for assa

[eager plaza]

is necro the best for +?

[simple wadi]

certainly feels that way but its also a playstyle thing

[whole mason]

imho, it depends on what performance you want in M+.

[simple wadi]

altho i guess do more more tab/sbs with sin than you do with outlaw

^ this too

I kinda miss having an on demand dmg CD for prio targets in M+

[stoic needle]

after swapping to necro i don't miss flag at all in m+

your on demand cd is shiv

[simple wadi]

true

[stoic needle]

and vendetta

[simple wadi]

but flagg is kinda thematically fun? i mean im whipping that pride

[stoic needle]

and gemstones is a decent window albeit not controllable

true

[gusty mirage]

[stoic needle]

but pride is gone in 3months

[gusty mirage]

I miss my vampire bois

[stoic needle]

i miss my blade cape

[simple wadi]

necro feels really satisfying as you master it

[stoic needle]

gameplay wise tho sbs is way more fun than flag

[simple wadi]

in a way that venth doesn't

[stoic needle]

yup

[simple wadi]

and the gains with SBS feels super exponential

[stoic needle]

it just puts into context how shit of a builder fok and mutilate are

ooh shit i just had a good idea

[gusty mirage]

Make fok great again. Where’s my EB blizz

[stoic needle]

i need to add a sound effect to my sbs wa when i get a charge reset

that's my problem is not using charges as they come up

the sound effect thing helped me for mfd

[gusty mirage]

I need to find a custom sound pack for WA because outside of like 5 options the others are super sus

Just use the moan one osh

[stoic needle]

agreed

n

you can add your own sounds to the menu

err to the weakaura files

and then select them in the files

i added a shotgun noise for mfd

[gusty mirage]

Pog I can record “dumb ass use bone spike”

[stoic needle]

yes you can

[gusty mirage]

Sound triggers are a dangerous thing without proper load conditions though, be running through mobs on your mount and hear 1500 shotgun shots an hour

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[lusty bane]

!guide

[whole mason]

Today I worked out some number about env and shiv. It seems move an env from the window of shiv, if there were three, to a period without env buff actually gets more dmg. It turns out 20% boost from shiv really does not make it so worthy...Didi my calc miss anything?

[strange python]

if im venthyr is it worth switching to necro for stone or just do SLG as vent assa

[stoic needle]

necro is better for slg and sire

i'd say yes

[solar hare]

Necro owns on sire

[stoic needle]

no you didn't, # of envenoms during shiv doesn't really matter

[strange python]

why is it so good on sire

[whole mason]

I think venthyr is quite fine for Sire.

[gusty mirage]

Tasty SBS going out in every direction

[strange python]

to SBS the adds?

[gusty mirage]

Venthyr is good prio damage for sure

[worthy heart]

On tyrannical do i keep doomblade for single target bosses or do i go yolo zoldyck for more aoe?

[solar hare]

That and it does a ton of damage

[strange python]

but when im talking toing necro are we all talking about going it for outlaw

[gusty mirage]

Zoldyk even on tyran weeks

[strange python]

or do you mean necro assa

[gusty mirage]

Trash is still a majority of the dungeon

[worthy heart]

Tyty

[gusty mirage]

And zold is still good for ST

[solar hare]

This was last night, a lot of wasted cp but, this is ~20 p2-3 prog attempts on sire

[stoic needle]

it's better for sin and outlaw. remornia keeps a sbs stack for cp purposes during p3, and the adds in p2 seem to as well

[whole mason]

I'd say two are necessary to cover the shiv window with env buff.

[solar hare]

Look at cp gen and dam % from sbs

[stoic needle]

so you get 5cp for a large portion of sire from every sbs

[gusty mirage]

Only dungeon where doom might work is like TOP where pulls are generally smaller, but you could just throw zold on and forget it

[solar hare]

Where as flag is like 4-5% with a haste buff

[strange python]

amazing

[worthy heart]

Alright thanks 😄

[stoic needle]

yeah sbs doing more damage than rupture with the conduit

happens in keys as well

[gusty mirage]

[strange python]

awesome

dunno logs just show vent is best

[solar hare]

I think majority of sin rogues are already venthyr so no point is swapping for a small gain on 2 fights, im not even sure if its 100% better as its hard to sim odd fights like that

But necro definitely feels and looks very strong on them

[heavy trail]

a lot of toxic fellers in M+ lol

[sage mist]

how does Sudden Fractures conduit compare to the other staples, such as Lethal poisons and Maim, Mangle? It looks like it should be pretty decent

[solar hare]

It typically sims highest in single target over wps

Not sure about dslice cuz i havent simmed it personally

[sage mist]

OK, i was going to get around to simming it myself, but have just been working on getting my Renown up since is switched Monday

thought that maybe there was some general agreement

Thanks btw

[gusty mirage]

I just want to know why blizzard gave me. 226 maim mangle instead of a 226 wps in raid. Blizzard WHY

[sage mist]

I got a 226 Planned Execution last night... so yeah

while playing Sin

[spice spire]

That’s a big FAT F.

[limber lion]

Just kill Denny and get SF/LS

[gusty mirage]

We’re struggling to get back to council after a roster disaster

Ya boys about to be hard stuck 6/10 for a while

Lost both DKs to real life stuff, our hpal is burned out, one of our tanks left, one of our healers just stopped logging in altogether

[limber lion]

Damn, hopefully it's just a small hiccup ans you get on track asap!

Welo

Welp

Have you considered swapping guilds or are you planning to expand your roster?

[gusty mirage]

We still have a pretty decent squad though, got 5 bosses down in 2 hours of raiding last night

[minor thicket]

hey guys is there an ideal time to use Skulkers? do we use with vandetta?

[gusty mirage]

Arti’s going to be a wild ride with 1 DK

[limber lion]

On cooldown.

Read the pins.

Check the FAQ

[gusty mirage]

“Oxi clear traps” “sorry already cloaked the ghost”

[minor thicket]

literally doesnt say in pins

thanks tho

[gusty mirage]

Nothing we have affects trinkets so you just send them on CD

[minor thicket]

ty

[limber lion]

My boy

[whole mason]

For boss like council and Sire, I can see blizzard try to hide ST boss with less significant adds so that logs give less impact. But these bosses also makes pure ST spec like sin more blameable. I did decent dmg but my RL kicked me out 0.0

[gusty mirage]

[vital haven]

@gusty mirage be a chad and clear traps when you get a ghost

[gusty mirage]

True

[vital haven]

2 for one

[limber lion]

"literally doesn't say in the pins"

Maybe read the fucking pins

Don't skim through em

Actually read them.

[minor thicket]

maybe dont be an asshole

ii missed it

[stoic needle]

well the thing is that necro wins on any fights with adds over venthyr because of the cp funnel capability with sbs resets

[rose ermine]

What should I make Zoldyck Insignia slot?

[limber lion]

Legs for now, Boots for 9.1

[stoic needle]

legs, or boots if you think you will kill mythic kel'thuzad in 9.1

[limber lion]

If you killin Kael

[rose ermine]

It's best leggo yeah?

[stoic needle]

like the gap between necro and venthyr on st is like ~50-80 dps now

and as soon as you get like 1 sbs reset necro wins

[vital haven]

yep switching necro today

done with the vampires

[stoic needle]

just comparing flag vs sbs in a vacuum, not considering the soulbinds - sanctum of domination has a lot of sbs cheese potential

[vital haven]

hello jelly bois

[strange python]

We talking ab 9.1 pvp right?

[gusty mirage]

The third arm comes in handy

[vital haven]

soulbinds for venthyr are ass

[limber lion]

For M+, Doomblade for raiding

[stoic needle]

no

pvp goes in #pvp

[gusty mirage]

You didn’t like draven?

[stoic needle]

and stays there

[strange python]

Ah omay

[vital haven]

lol

[gusty mirage]

Literally the most useless soulbind ever

[rose ermine]

Whats assas best leggo for pvp?

[gusty mirage]

#pvp knows

[limber lion]

MA/Doomblade

But ye, ^

[vital haven]

draven is "switch to outlaw for trash soulbind"

[stoic needle]

draven is "literally never use this ever" soulbind

[gusty mirage]

Get that fat shatter when you die to the traps for extra padding

[stoic needle]

u can use theotar and nadjia for outlaw and sin without changing conduits

sadly u can't do that with heirmir, only emeni

gnashing chompers is actually pretty decent on slg

[gusty mirage]

Sucks if you pvp too and need a 3rd soulbind because conduit energy is a thing for no god damn reason

[stoic needle]

you get 5 stacks every time a pack of skirmishers dies and you can use the haste to pump the boss and phase it faster

marileth seems like the pvp soulbind

so overall its not that bad

[gusty mirage]

Yeah necro’s solid. I got first dude for pvp, emeni for outlol/m+ and bonesmith for raid

[charred mango]

did anything change to make necro that much closer in ST?

[grave dock]

our first inerva kill was on our DK tank shattering and killing the boss when everyone else was dead

[vital haven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIKa19nkvCs

draven is clearly biss

we are just bad and cant see it

[stoic needle]

apl optimizations, saving your sbs charges to spend them during gemstones

[grave dock]

or shiv too I thought

[dawn ivy]

how much closer is necro ST now?

[charred mango]

shit now i really want to swap my main lol

[stiff tapir]

Question for council, would having rupture / garrote be worth it for majority of the fight? I feel like it might be taxing to maintain all of it on 3 targets. A bit easier on 2 tho

[limber lion]

You want to have both garrote and rupture on one extra target.

[stiff tapir]

For sure

[limber lion]

So 2 targets, but not 3.

[stoic needle]

less than 1%

[stoic needle]

shiv is also fine

[stiff tapir]

Yeah 3 is like I’ll be energy starved

[limber lion]

More like gcd-capped

[stiff tapir]

Yeah that too

[limber lion]

Because you'll be spending most of your time reapplying dots.

Instead of pumping into your main target.

[stiff tapir]

And not pumping into Frieda

Yeah

Is it worth spending 50 energy on garrote on attendant? I just rupture sbs

[limber lion]

No.

[cold sparrow]

If applying poison on the extra target, is FoK preferred? Or still Mut?

Only in the case of Council

[limber lion]

Mutilate.

[cold sparrow]

Ty 🙏

Is it due to the crit chance and possible BS proc? Just trying to understand it

[strong saffron]

whats better, crit or haste ? Sim looks like crit but i lose a lot of haste

[kind talon]

yo ceve

am i dumb or is it impossible to get triple envenom in shiv window of 8 seconds

without lust

[limber lion]

Crit for Venthyr generally, just follow what the sim says.

[kind talon]

oh its 9 seconds

nvm its possible

[limber lion]

It is possible if you pool properly before it and get lucky with crits.

But.

But

You don't do that

You don't look to fit in 3 Envenoms in your shiv

If you get 3 Envenoms, that's great

If you only get 1, that's fine as well

The only thing that matters, is that you press Shiv on cooldown

Literally nothing else does.

[kind talon]

ah

so i never hold shiv

[limber lion]

Yeah never

[kind talon]

when do i pool

[limber lion]

Even at max combo points or 0 combo points you press it

You pool on Envenom

Meaning before hitting Envenom you pool to -30 energy

Then you slam Envenom, Muti, Muti and then pool again

This way it pools energy for your Shiv windows as well automatically

During Shiv/Flag/Vend you don't pool anymore.

[kind talon]

-30 from cap or?

[limber lion]

Yeah

[kind talon]

so if using DS

[limber lion]

Be it 90 with DS/MFD or 140 with Vigor.

[kind talon]

i pool to 90 before envenom?

ok

[limber lion]

It's not exactly -30 but around there is good so you can get Envenom and 2 Mutilates out immediately during the Envenom buff

[kind talon]

ahhhh

makes sense

[limber lion]

Yeah, you want to maximize the Envenom buff's value by pooling before pressing Envenom

[stoic needle]

you can get 3 envenom in shiv easily as necrolord

[whole mason]

You can calculate the pooling energy threshold with 325-18*(1+haste)9 or 325-19(1+haste)*9 [Vigor]

It gives 1shiv 4muts 3env

However, if you're vent, # of env in shiv does not matter as long as it is covered by env buff.

[kind talon]

i am necrolord

[stoic needle]

use sbs during shiv

[kind talon]

one sbs at start and then only on shiv?

sounds good

[stoic needle]

shiv or gemstones

[strong saffron]

so as vent should i try to do 2 envs with max env buff duration or just spam it asap?

[stoic needle]

just spam it, you might get lucky with crits

[strong saffron]

ok

[whole mason]

For necrolord, I'm not sure if you're using WPS. For the calc I did today, if your shiv boost only 20%, it is not really worthy for a huge pooling.

[stoic needle]

you should use sudden fractures

[kind talon]

oh

do i hold vanish for shiv?

[stoic needle]

no

[timid coral]

sometimes I'll still be at mid-low energy with envenom buff falling off. In such cases keep pooling energy, or envenom immediately to reapply the buff?

[stoic needle]

keep pooling

[kind talon]

so i just vendetta vanish on cd

and shiv on cd

but i dont hold shiv or vanish for anything?

like its fine to MA envenom without shiv or

[stoic needle]

yes

you can hold shiv for up to 12 seconds for vendetta but thats it

[limber lion]

Yeah generally press everything on CD, you can hold your Shiv before Vendetta for 12s max, otherwise you just Vendetta and press Shiv during Vend.

[whole mason]

There will be a ~10 sec window between your 2nd Ved and shiv. however, if you held, you're going to wait for vanish on your 3rd Ved and shiv that are paired.

[limber lion]

As long as you have the full Shiv inside the Vendetta, you're gucci.

You should vanish during both Shiv/Vendetta.

You don't really want to Vanish and then Shiv after. You always Shiv first, then Vanish right after.

But as long as you have Shiv and Vendetta up, you should be fine as Vend/Vanish have the same cooldown. Don't really need to think about Vanish.

[kind talon]

but i always shiv into vanish right

or no

[limber lion]

Yeh like I said.

[limber lion]

^

[whole mason]

Well, into details, your 3rd Ved needs you to hold for like less than 10 sec on shiv. Thus, if you held vanish on your 2nd Ved for the shiv, it will be another 10sec waiting on your 3rd Ved, which makes it a 20sec holding on Shiv

[kind talon]

so like

ok

i hold shiv for vendetta 12 seconds max

but i always vanish for my first envenom in vendetta?

[limber lion]

¨No

It doesn't matter when you vanish during the Vendetta

You do it during the Shiv window

[kind talon]

ok

got it

[limber lion]

Vendetta > Shiv > Vanish

[kind talon]

i do it during the shiv window during vendetta

100%

ty

[limber lion]

Fo' sho

Go get em tiger

[kind talon]

back to the training dummies i go

[limber lion]

[whole mason]

You will find your comfortable style in practice.

[rose ermine]

So-.. Vend then Shiv then Vanish>

?

[pure moth]

Yes

[kind talon]

not in that order tho

[limber lion]

That is the order.

[kind talon]

for the ability presses?

dont you vendetta off cd or you wait for max cp

[limber lion]

Well you might Vendetta earlier

[kind talon]

yeah

idk

[limber lion]

So it could be

[kind talon]

like

[limber lion]

Flag - Rup - Vend - Shiv - Vanish

Or Vend - Flag - Rup - Shiv - Vanish

Or Vend - Rup - Shiv - Vanish

Doesn't really matter.

[kind talon]

dont i vanish with max cp tho

[whole mason]

in opener?

[limber lion]

Not with DS

[kind talon]

why not

[limber lion]

Because the rule is to always finish at max-1

And with Mutilate you can only get 4 combo points

You have 3 gcd's to use during the Master Assa window

[kind talon]

i see

[limber lion]

So if you do Envenom first, you then Mutilate for 4 combo points (which is max-2) and you have to Mutilate again

With DS you always use 2 Mutilate's and 1 Envenom during your Master Assa windows

And it doesn't really matter what the order of those 3 is.

Env - Muti - Muti
Muti - Env - Muti
Muti - Muti - Env

Any is fine.

With Vigor you would vanish at max-1 because if you get 4 combo points with Muti, you could Envenom again at max-1

[kind talon]

if im necrolord

do i sbs instead or?

[limber lion]

No, you would muti during the MA window.

You use SBS during Gemstone procs.

[kind talon]

got it

wait i have another question

could you explain the pooling before envenom again

what is giving me more damage with the two mutilates after?

[limber lion]

So

Envenom increases your chance to proc poisons, right?

[kind talon]

yeah

[limber lion]

Yeah, and Mutilate attacks with both daggers and applying poisons at their normal rate x2

[kind talon]

its 6-7 seconds right

[limber lion]

Ye

[kind talon]

so like

[limber lion]

So you have 30% more proc chance on poisons

[kind talon]

wouldnt i always get at least 2 mutilates per envenom or

[limber lion]

Yes, by pooling

[kind talon]

but if i dont pool then i wont have enough energy gen or?

6 seconds feels like a lot idk

anyways im probably just overthinking it and im kinda dumb so

thanks for all the help ceve

❤️

[limber lion]

Yeah, but pooling on Envenoms is not a loss either and it automatically pools for your Shiv windows.

That's the main part.

[kind talon]

got it

[limber lion]

You pool energy mainly so you have resources to spend during the cooldowns.

[kind talon]

thanks i understand now

you said to use sbs during gemstone windows

[limber lion]

Yeh

[kind talon]

should i get a weakaura lol

[limber lion]

Definitely.

[kind talon]

what if my gemstone wont line up with vendetta

[limber lion]

Gemstone is probably the only soulbind passive you want to track in the game.

That doesn't really matter.

[kind talon]

wuldnt it be better to sbs during vendetta tho?

[limber lion]

They do their own things.

Yeah, definitely do save SBS for Vendetta

[kind talon]

its more efficient cp gen

[limber lion]

If you have Gemstone procing in 5 and Vendetta in 12s

[kind talon]

ok so out of vendetta i save sbs for gemstone

[limber lion]

And you're not going to cap sbs, then feel free to wait for Vend

Yeh

As long as you don't overcap sbs

[kind talon]

but i hold sbs for vendetta

[limber lion]

Ye

[kind talon]

sorry

so

i use one charge between vendettas

[limber lion]

One charge?

Of SBS?

[kind talon]

yeah

cause its 90 seconds to regen all of them

[limber lion]

Well you would use 3-4 SBS

[kind talon]

oh nvm i would use 2 charges

between vendettas

wait

[limber lion]

During the Gemstone charges

procs*

You proc Gemstone, you use 2 SBS normally

[stoic needle]

If you use vendetta on CD gemstones should line up with every one

[limber lion]

If you quicksim yourself you'll see how the sim takes care of SBS

[kind talon]

ok

[limber lion]

You can see whenever it gets gemstone

[kind talon]

oh no ceve

you sim for like +400 dps 😮

[limber lion]

[kind talon]

idk why its such a big difference lol

[balmy condor]

Cause he’s a god gamer

[spice spire]

True

[left abyss]

Whats the optimal use for vanish window with MA & DS?

Envenon mut into envenom without capping CP feels bad

but double mut with the crit buff feels bad because your wasting CP#

[limber lion]

With Deeper Stratagem you always use 1 Envenom and 2 Mutilates.

[balmy condor]

Double mut

Deeper means finishing on 5

And no matter how you spin it

Can’t get to 5 in 1 global

So 2 envenoms won’t work

[kind talon]

wait ceve are u using planning mfd for single target?

[cerulean raft]

hey guys, quick question: for sunking myth i need some burst, do i change any talents from standard 3-3-1/2-0-0-2-1 for that?

[balmy condor]

Could play EP vig

[limber lion]

For short bosses in heroic, never in Mythic.

[balmy condor]

But we kinda don’t burst

That’s just not something we really do

[cerulean raft]

thats what i thought 😄

[whole mason]

how much is this burst you're talking about?

[balmy condor]

He’s talking about the shields

[cerulean raft]

whats EP vig?

[balmy condor]

Elaborate planning + vigor

[kind talon]

oh no no no ceve

its +500 dps with same talents

are my stat weights just fucked or what lmfao

[balmy condor]

Link sim

[kind talon]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oe6Po8Dt4mF7SXsfUrFa9c

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fjZivPyG3W5ErrK7AVxUNK

[cerulean raft]

ah k, yeah more dmg on shields instead of execute, but not rly burst

thanks!

[whole mason]

For the shields, it is really not something you should be responsible for

[balmy condor]

Cev’s got better stats, better trinkets, and he’s venth

[limber lion]

^ pretty much that.

[balmy condor]

Also I’m on mobile but I think he’s 6 sockets

Not sure about you

[kind talon]

ah

yeah im 1 socket lmfao

and its still verse oop

[limber lion]

I'm on the pc, Whispyr's on mobile and he's still faster than me.

[balmy condor]

Fastest hands in the west

[shy dust]

Venthyr

[kind talon]

idk how weird this is but

nvm

[balmy condor]

[wary ice]

[kind talon]

[gusty mirage]

[royal lantern]

@balmy condor wanna see something?

im happy now

[kind talon]

huh offhands are kinda impactful

pretty cracked

[balmy condor]

Autos and mutilate damage

Pretty cracked

[hollow escarp]

it ain't much

but it adds up

[kind talon]

rate my offhand

how sick?

seems good to me

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/milk-mocha-milk-mocha-sick-gif-18965436

[timber basalt]

dirk > fang

fight me

[kind talon]

any dirkers?

[wary ice]

1/6

[kind talon]

sheeesh

thats pretty low

[balmy condor]

3/7

[whole mason]

I think for now the offhand weighs more than it used to be

[balmy condor]

Slice helps

Make offhand worth more

[kind talon]

it says 220 iqd is a dps loss for me

i dont know anymore

[whole mason]

In 8.x, offhand was like some decoration prop, however without which you cannot mut.

[gusty mirage]

OH dps still mattered tho

[thorny pond]

OH DPS matters. Just wish we could let our OH be something other than daggers >.<

[gusty mirage]

I mean you could, but your only builder would be FoK. Don’t let your dreams be dreams

Or just play sub

[thorny pond]

If I parse purple with FoK and SBS then you all owe me a soda

[gusty mirage]

I’ll buy you a wow token if you manage that

Hell I’ll buy you a wow token for even attempting it

That’s dedication right there

https://tenor.com/view/a-little-confused-hes-got-the-spirit-fresh-prince-gif-10576575

[thorny pond]

Honestly, just swap the sound files for Shur Storm and FoK and I'll be happy. Sub is da poop

[limber lion]

Alright, time for my first reclear in 3 months.

[kind talon]

thats very rude

[limber lion]

[whole mason]

get 10 priests and call PIs in council, there maybe a chance for him...

[thorny pond]

Good luck. Don't get hit by rings on Shriek

[limber lion]

😄

[kind talon]

gl ceve 😄

[gusty mirage]

You got this

Get all the parses and loot

[kind talon]

ceve can i ask u a favor

could u send me the simc string of ur offhand please 😄

[thorny pond]

"if OH exists, DMG > 0"

[kind talon]

🙂

does anyone have a 220 dagger string i could use 🙂

[gusty mirage]

Yeah mine might still be saved in my simc input

Let me check

[kind talon]

❤️

[limber lion]

off_hand=",id=182388,enchant_id=6228,bonus_id=7188/6652/1518/6646"

[limber lion]

[gusty mirage]

Stop being better than me

[kind talon]

[gusty mirage]

Actually don’t I want you to be #1 in the world and I’m a lowly mediocre raider

[kind talon]

ceverion im going to have to ask u to stop

stop being the best and most handsome

[rose ermine]

Blindside or Elab Planning with Doomblade?

[spice spire]

Gang

[gusty mirage]

Twins

[spice spire]

My parses are worse though

[balmy condor]

Btw, you can rip the string from a gear compare, just sim it, go into the raw input, and pull the string from there

Can also pull strings from wowhead, droptimizer, etc

[kind talon]

ah thanks

[balmy condor]

And can add “ilevel=x” at the end of an item to overwrite it to x ilvl

[shadow pivot]

!oil

[prisma monolith]

Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ

[shy dust]

I was right there

[stoic needle]

Adding ilvl =x doesn't work with stuff that's in your bags on raidbots for some reason

I've tried it a few times

[balmy condor]

That’s because ilvl isn’t the line

It’s ilevel

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

[stoic needle]

[strange python]

what do I craft doomblade on and what stats? :D

oh wait it's in pins just hard to find

[balmy condor]

Hands crit haste

[strange python]

ty ty

[balmy condor]

All our lego’s are Crit haste or haste Vers

If you’re pvping with it, might want to consider vers

[strange python]

what's sin like in pvp now roughly? have avoided it mostly with this season since I'm an outlaw main :P

[wary ice]

bout the same as its always been

Maintain bleeds subt->cheapshot spam-> xd Env Mfd env

[balmy condor]

Vanish big envenoms

[strange python]

is there a ST sim with bis/near bis gear so I can compare sim dmg? :)

[balmy condor]

Herodamage has combinations you can view

!sims

[prisma monolith]

Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[strange python]

ty

[lavish grove]

Hey guys, first off thanks for all the discussions here, it helps a lot. I know it says in FAQ that lining flag with vendetta is not needed. Am I reading that right? So I just use it on cd and not wait for Vendetta?

[shy dust]

yes

you can sync

if you know you wont lose a cast

[halcyon zealot]

only hold it if it’s not gonna make you lose a cast later in the pull

if you’re not sure

use on CD

[lavish grove]

Got it, thank you !

I have a 190 zholdyk, is it worth using dust for 235 or hold until 9.1? What would you guys do? (Already have 235 doomblade)

[winter gale]

When to go with flag on pull ?

[balmy condor]

before rup

[winter gale]

Good, great

[stoic needle]

there's several months until 9.1, nothing wrong with upgrading it

i highly doubt the legendary balance will change so much that you'd need 3+ different legendaries besides zoldyck maxed in 9.1

[gusty mirage]

but my maw rat leggo @stoic needle

[stoic needle]

why does that thing even exist

i dont understand

[gusty mirage]

idk I'm kinda curious to try it out tbh

like I accept that it sucks

but I wanna see it in action

[stoic needle]

[gusty mirage]

boredom

shit week for keys, mythic roster is scuffed rn so if we get to council again it def aint dying

[stoic needle]

[gusty mirage]

got my 226 cto conduit though

[stoic needle]

insane

just in time for you to never play outlaw again

[gusty mirage]

then I crafted a 235 zoldyk

[stoic needle]

finally got boe bracers

[shy dust]

Gz

[stoic needle]

i need a good socket worthy necklace

[gusty mirage]

did you get them with avoidance?

[stoic needle]

n

[gusty mirage]

imagine not getting avoidance boes

[stoic needle]

sorry i'm not sweaty enough to give a fuck about tertiaries

[gusty mirage]

its okay I forgive you

I was told to fake it til I make it, maybe if I fake the mentality of a CE raider I'll get there

[stoic needle]

If i can get some 226 gloves and 226 legs and a 226 necklace i'll be all 226 besides trinkets which are fake news

[gusty mirage]

yeah 226 phial doesn't exist

and whoever tells us otherwise is satan

[stoic needle]

wild that ep vig is only 10 dps less than bs ds for me

[steep reef]

hello #assassination i hope everyone is having a wonderful hump day today

[halcyon zealot]

ty

[nimble tartan]

ty @steep reef

[worn pilot]

I’m going to be world top 20 sin parse on SLG this week

[silent stratus]

2 target patchwerk sim for huntsman mythic?

[nimble tartan]

@steep reef can i run crimson tempest on slg this week so i can boost this number https://i.imgur.com/8fOo5CL.png

and sire denath

ty

[worn pilot]

Shouldn’t we be running tempest on SLG?

[shy dust]

Tbf that’s like world top 20 out of 40

Sin is very much so a dead spec still

[nimble tartan]

naw just run pure st stuff

[shy dust]

By actual players

[worn pilot]

Ye. Last I checked it was 19 total parses

[nimble tartan]

u can just run ep and normal talents prob real good for slg

i just run the regular setup with blindside

[shy dust]

Blindside is awful

For slg

0 reasons to run that

[worn pilot]

Yea I was using ep and tempest. I didn’t think poison bomb would get that much value tbh

[shy dust]

CT is fine yeah

[nimble tartan]

ct is def like a pad talent imo on that fight

if its deep farm dont matter tho

for prog def not ideal

[halcyon zealot]

must be nice - i got to play my rogue for 2? night of slg prog then was forced dk

[shy dust]

I mean playing assa on slg

Is bad in itself

[halcyon zealot]

well ya idk why you’d play assa

[nimble tartan]

mm disagree now

[shy dust]

CT is fine for slg prog if you’re playing assa

[stoic needle]

for boss damage

[shy dust]

The bosses have such little health

On slg

[nimble tartan]

with buffs idk whyd u play outlaw on slg now every other class better for boss dam i think

u there to pump goliath

[stoic needle]

i did a couple pulls with both last night and ct does more boss damage than PB somehow

[shy dust]

You rarely ever focus them

[worn pilot]

Yea we needed more Goliath

Damage

[shy dust]

CT is a better choice than PB

[nimble tartan]

sin god tier goliath dam

[shy dust]

Boss damage on slg though is just not a big deal

[nimble tartan]

yeah its a strat execution fight

[worn pilot]

Is there still adds in p3?

[nimble tartan]

imo the only thing is goliath death timings

yeah

but usually they die fast

[shy dust]

No Goliath

[worn pilot]

Ah gotcha

[shy dust]

Just skirms

[silent stratus]

elaborate planning is simming much better if I do 2 bosses patchwerk. should I run it for huntsman mythic?

[worn pilot]

We were just starting to get to 2nd intermission last night

[worn pilot]

Yes

Haste from extra bleeds = constant uptime on ep

[nimble tartan]

theres a dece amount of sin on slg like 280 parses not badd

i def think sin the hottest spec for slg now tho since the buff but really it prob depends on ur comp

[shy dust]

Hard disagree

The adds still need to die

And outlaw just does that better

[halcyon zealot]

necro sin could be fun on slg

[nimble tartan]

the adds need to die at a specific time where peopelo are all using their cds so

idk

feels fine

i did outlaw prog and first few clears

[stoic needle]

necro sin is very fun on slg

[worn pilot]

Oh yea I remember why there was so few parses. I had the nf cove filter on also

[stoic needle]

so many resets

you get decent lbe uptime

[calm dome]

well placed steel or lethal poisons for Sludge M ?

[stoic needle]

WPS

[halcyon zealot]

prob wps for extra shiv umph on pillars, that’s my feelcraft answer

[nimble tartan]

just play lashing scars bro

ep

[shy dust]

Well WPS does more st

If you’re venthyr you should be running lashing

But wps is better for sludge than lethal

[calm dome]

Thanks , I am NF

[stoic needle]

wps boosts sepsis as well

[calm dome]

Went on Sludge M fors the first time yesterday ( as Outlaw ) and I am going to try Sin tonight

[nimble tartan]

when does ur guild lust

[calm dome]

4th pillar

[nimble tartan]

if its the normal 4th pil

[silent stratus]

crimson tempest for huntsman mythic? It sim 9k instead of 6k with PB lol

[nimble tartan]

cd on pull 2nd last

[silent stratus]

but it can be simbait

bc bear and huntsman will not be together all the time

[shy dust]

Almost every guild lusts at the same time for M sludge

[nimble tartan]

on pull 2nd pillar last pillar

[shy dust]

CT won’t make a difference from 9k to 6k

[balmy condor]

please stop using simbait as if that means anything

[calm dome]

I am going to use CD on pull / 2nd and 4th pillar

[shy dust]

You must have scuffed the sim

[nimble tartan]

ye thats good

[shy dust]

And CT is a fine choice for huntsman

[nimble tartan]

save flag for ur go too

[calm dome]

Sepsis on CD right ?

[nimble tartan]

oh wait u nf

[balmy condor]

CT is the optimal choice for huntsman

[nimble tartan]

carry on

should be def a noticeable increase in dps as sin

[calm dome]

and I keep Shiv for pillar, not using it on CD right ?

[silent stratus]

what does this mean

[nimble tartan]

u can use a shiv in between pillars

itll come up right before he charges again

just watch the timer

[calm dome]

ok

[balmy condor]

it means the term is dumb and causes people to not trust sims

[silent stratus]

patchwerk 2 bosses assume you are in range of them all the time, right?

[calm dome]

sepsis on CD during Sludge M fight ? or I keep it for pillars ?

[balmy condor]

yes

[silent stratus]

during huntsman mythic you are not in range of 2 bosses all the time, right?

[balmy condor]

correct

[silent stratus]

so would CT do more dmg in patchwerk 2 bosses than what actually would do in huntsman mythic?

[balmy condor]

yes

[stoic needle]

That doesn't make it sim bait though

[balmy condor]

if you're scared about downtime

sim movement

but don't call shit simbait

because you're not able to apply a sim to the exact situation

that's just silly

there's no sim type for hungering either, there's downtime for that

oh no

all the sims are simbait

[hollow barn]

aye but Whispyr, I simmed patchwerk 1 target and I got more dps on the sim than I did on shreikwing 🤔

[balmy condor]

you see how it quickly slides into "all the sims are wrong"

that's the problem

sims are an evaluation tool

if you're trying to saw wood with a hammer

you don't call the hammer broken

that's a user error

so instead of calling things bait for no reason and mistrusting sims based on nothing

instead apply the data, or sim something that applies to your situation better

if you want to insist that simbait is a thing

then stop simming

cause it's all bait

just feel your way through everything

mastery gains value when you have downtime btw

have fun

[stoic needle]

[dull cloak]

thats it, im stacking mastery

[warm parcel]

re:simming

sim is tool to use to compare x to y

not to find out what is your ultimate possible output

they have nothing to do with each other

[silent stratus]

I never said that all sims are wrong, neither that sims are broken

[balmy condor]

perfect

then don't use the word

easy

[silent stratus]

Some results of the sims can lead you to wrong assumptions

If you are triggered by the word sim bait that's not something I have to deal with

[balmy condor]

no, some of the people reading the results of the sim can lead themselves to wrong assumptions

[silent stratus]

Sim bait is a clear word that says how a result of a sim can bait you in certain decisions which are not optimal

[balmy condor]

it's not the sims fault you can't apply yourself

[silent stratus]

That's why I asked if actually CT simming better is a accurate result because how patchwerk 2 bosses sim is designed and is different to the actual huntsman fight

[dull cloak]

i always thought sim bait == sims are wrong, but means sim results mislead people due to wrong interpretation of data

[balmy condor]

the problem is saying simbait is literally "oh the sim is baiting me" = sim is wrong

for a lot of people

IQD

even with the chance built in

people go "oh IQD is an awful trinket, it's simbait, sims will always pick IQD"

and completely ignore that it's a good trinket

because they don't trust the sims

[warm parcel]

Also boomer rogue story time

MFD used to sim better than the talents on the row ages ago

Yet people just simply prefered not to mfd

It never was a simbait

It was simply people wanting to play what was comfy

[balmy condor]

but weak, MFD is simbait in m+ cause I'm never getting resets like the bot

[soft shale]

mfd on uldir was legit

[balmy condor]

fucking stupid arguments

[soft shale]

also on outlaw and sub m+ mfd is lit

[warm parcel]

Idno I just killed sludge with dashing chest and mfd

Felt quite nice

[soft shale]

i want to try dashing

[warm parcel]

Prepull ven and you can literally ven every pillar

[soft shale]

wait you mean dusk

[warm parcel]

Now get 200 ilvl haste trinket on use

Err not dash

the whatsyour face reduce ven cd

[soft shale]

yea duskwalkers

[warm parcel]

ye dusk

[vestal wren]

iirc mfd did sim better in hfc

[warm parcel]

Yea I was referencing hfc

[soft shale]

oh man hfc made me miss the 10 cp talent

SO MUCH

[vestal wren]

anticipation/ds in legion was kind of the same. DS simmmed better but everybody (outside of one rogue) was playing anticipation

[soft shale]

imagine if we could play that one now

i mean reducing impact of human error has always been something

[warm parcel]

Id fuck with anti

[balmy condor]

anticipation is kinda weird in current design I feel like

[warm parcel]

📈 tea times

[soft shale]

i would let him be my wife's boyfriend

[warm parcel]

always 30stack

[balmy condor]

it's hella pooling and pretty much removes overcap entirely

but it still feels weird

[gloomy fern]

this sire kill i did 1s ago was the most troll tac ever

[balmy condor]

cause it's not technically a dps gain on paper

aside from the little bit of pooling

[vestal wren]

anticipation is just very similar to ds

[balmy condor]

yeh

[warm parcel]

I mean anti never was really too roguelike if you think in class fantasy ways

Imo

[soft shale]

the only diff is one lets you do double tapping

[warm parcel]

Mark is a great rogue skill tho

[soft shale]

it is like having a back up dagger

yea mfd is super good

and boy do i miss prep

if sub had prep on this expansion for 2 charges of vanish

[warm parcel]

Removing prep was

Its such an iconic spell

[soft shale]

prep and the hunter one were such bad feels

[vestal wren]

it was*

[soft shale]

tbc prep tho pog

[warm parcel]

o right hunter prep too

forgot

[soft shale]

you could double disengage

i just saw a braindeadly video where he did that

a tear ran through my cheek

[chrome mirage]

Any chance of a rogue redemption arc on the ptr build today?

[soft shale]

we can only pray

[shy dust]

Wym redemption arc

Outlaw and assa are fine

[soft shale]

although sin with necro/venth/nf seems lit

with no changes

only new soulbind changes

[vestal wren]

back when rogue had feign death 🧓

[polar cape]

Plot twist kyrian gonns be bis cause why not /crystalball

[warm parcel]

Kyrian spell has the nicest cd of them all imo

[soft shale]

kyrian has some things too

[vestal wren]

it rly depends on the last tier unlocks

[soft shale]

mikanikos is pretty good now

[warm parcel]

The other two cds are so annoying

[polar cape]

I really wanna see those covenant lego tough

[soft shale]

if necro one is another stack of sbs on targets

we go stonks

[warm parcel]

You mean you can stack it twice?

[soft shale]

ye

[warm parcel]

Spicy

[polar cape]

Wait yeah

We like that

[soft shale]

there are so many good ideas

[vestal wren]

necro atm looks rly strong in general

[soft shale]

yea if nothing changes im going necro

[vestal wren]

but things can change

[soft shale]

heirmir m+ conduit is

crazy

as f

i would be running around with 2k mastery all the time

and with trinkets 3k

[calm dome]

with Vigor talented, when you are at 4 CPs, you go for finisher right ? because on other MUT will waste 1 CP

[balmy condor]

hacha spreading mastery gospel again

[balmy condor]

yes

you always finish on your maximum minus 1

[soft shale]

i will never say its the best way to play it is just not true tho

if anyone asks

[warm parcel]

what mastery heimir

[polar cape]

The mastery gospel has been a thing since corruption <.<

[warm parcel]

idno anything bout necro

[soft shale]

also @stoic needle got hands from inerva

[silent stratus]

clearly my argument wasnt that

[limber lion]

don't touch mastery

mastery bad

[balmy condor]

clearly me saying "but weak" means I wasn't talking to you

[silent stratus]

I mean we were talking about it

you were responding and explaining ur argument

[balmy condor]

yes

and then I finished doing that

[soft shale]

@warm parcel https://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=350899/carvers-eye

[warm parcel]

o right lmao

forgot to toggle ptr on

[soft shale]

yea that and mnemonics makes heirmir a big boy

also double potency now

meanwhile theo let me down and nadja one is ok but meh

[warm parcel]

na I feel nadjas final trait is real good now

its still "uncontrollable" but man haste and crit for assa

Altho I wouldnt mind playing necro I feel

[soft shale]

i think necro or venth both are fine but heirmir one is getting slapped for sure sadly

[warm parcel]

Having a covenant spell thats not a cd on a stupid cd that doesnt sync

[soft shale]

funny thing is with heirmir or nadja now you can cap crit

[warm parcel]

haste and crit also both feed into dash

[soft shale]

yea dashing seems interesting next tier

i can already clock 43% crit on some sets

that + device and nadja or heirmir is already 100% poison crit

[warm parcel]

Im 25/20 c/h atm

[soft shale]

now if only we had a crit on use

[warm parcel]

And still so many "bad pieces"

[stoic needle]

[soft shale]

im already on the collector phase of the patch

i got all the mastery pieces from m+

[minor anchor]

Can you evasion anything on M Sludgefist?

[soft shale]

nope

[minor anchor]

this game sucks

[stoic needle]

Yo I'm so hyped for that conduit

[soft shale]

yea i though theo was big

but then comes heirmir with a steel chair

funniest shit is you only need 2 targets yo maintain

and 3 you get the stacks on 10 secs

can also snipe critters

and even use anatomic+turnip before m+ begins to get the stacks

[stoic needle]

Gemstones lines up with everything sin does way better than thrill seeker imo

It's up for every other shiv and every vanish/vendetta

No stupid mechanics or killing blows or anything making you lose uptime on it

[halcyon zealot]

yeah i wanna go necro pretty badly but kinda stuck venthyr for the rest of sire prog i think, cba grinding renown mid prog

seems like mad fun

with sbs, i’ve only played sepsis and flag

[stoic needle]

I swapped mid sludge prog

I could've been back to 34 renown in 2 days but I didn't save my callings and weeklies til the end

My RL clowned me for it

I like to think Lbe helped us get the kill

[soft shale]

good thing about necro too is plaguey is an alpha so you get so many runes

and stygia

[stoic needle]

Yo plaguey is a fucking god

Holy shit

What a busted follower

[shell kettle]

😄

[hollow escarp]

3rd phial

[stoic needle]

I've looted 4

[hollow escarp]

best part is that there is a druid in my group that was farming it on his warrior

and now it dropped lol

gave it to a prot pala

[whole mason]

Would duskwalker be any good if paired with flag and euphoria in 9.1?

[hollow escarp]

[balmy condor]

who knows

most likely not

it's currently a worse legendary, syncing with flag/euphoria is a loss

so I'm not sure there's any way to salvage the combination

you'd need like 4-5% of optimizations

and that's just not in the cards

[whole mason]

I mean the 20 crit after euphoria. But I know it is a worse legendary.

[balmy condor]

yeah I know you mean that

but there's no way you're overcoming the huge loss of syncing like that

and also no way you're gonna overcome the gap from dusk to doom

doing both at the same time on top of that

is just pipe dream

[warm parcel]

big p3 dps with mfd

[whole mason]

Blizzard should buff Ved amplifier with duskwalker not the energy... Which makes duskwalker for vent and doomblade for necro...

[warm parcel]

I really dig mfd with lashing

It feels like it trucks

[balmy condor]

so you want the legendary to be more boring?

the cd reduction on vend is the interesting part

it allows people like weak to run it on sludge

because of the lineup

and make it work

if it were just stronger vend, it would just be a numbers game of "oh well it's undertuned so rip I guess"

with really no thought behind it

[dull cloak]

kinda reminds me of using vision of perfection minor on wrathion for sin

[whole mason]

Well, not intended for boring numeric direction tho

[grand echo]

Finally killed m sire

[balmy condor]

gz

[whole mason]

Nice!

[grand echo]

Was 2nd @p3 dmg done spriest with pi won by 1%

[shy dust]

Shadow priest with PI is a bit redundant

Since it’s part of their kit btw

[plucky briar]

so if I have duskwalker, I can have vendetta for every pillar?

[late grove]

Pool on envenom (as in get about 30 from your maximum energy before casting envenom), when you are not inside of a burst window (vendetta, shiv, flag) can someone rephrase and elaborate on this? i'm not following. To start, what does pool on envenom mean? you pool to how much energy before or after envenom? and why?

[limber lion]

You pool before pressing Envenom.

[shy dust]

No

You need externals

[soft shale]

you actually do but need to vend pre pull

not a good leggo tho

[shy dust]

🧐

[limber lion]

Pooling allows you to move your resources to more important parts of your rotation, like during Shiv windows or during cooldowns.

[warm parcel]

dusk makes ven bout 66s

and pillars are 68s apart after the first happening at 58 or so

so it works if you prepull ven

[limber lion]

With Dusk + Faerie you can get under 60.

[late grove]

right so if i have shiv up, i usually wait until about 2/3 energy before pressing shiv and trying to get as many envenoms off.

[limber lion]

So just get 2 NF priest slaves and you're gucci

[limber lion]

No, when you have Shiv up, you press it.

And don't pool.

You pool before it's off cooldown

[whole mason]

Pooling also makes your muts hit more in env window for poison dmg.

[late grove]

sorry i mean when shiv comes off cooldown, i pool before i press shiv, then immediately envenom after and try to get as many max-1 envenoms off as possible in the window

is the pin saying that same thing?

[whole mason]

if you're Not using WPS, it is not so necessary.

[late grove]

what's wps

[whole mason]

well placed steel?

[late grove]

oh i see

interesting

because the extra damage from shiv makes it so it's not worth saving it for a few seconds for an ideal burst window?

[balmy condor]

what does WPS have to do with any of that

you pool before envenom to make sure you get maximum uptimes on things like EP/envenom, and you're fitting your muts into the envenom window

it also naturally pools for shiv/flag/vend

so it's just good

you can pool before shiv/vend/flag, and ignore pooling otherwise, its not a huge thing

but it's just easier imo to pool on every envenom out of burst and get in that habit

helps if they bring back something like double dose or something

[halcyon zealot]

the only confusion i run into sometimes is i feel like when i’m pooling; the buff from envenom gets close to falling off before i can really pool more often than not, so i feel like i’m always reapplying the buff instead of pooling

[balmy condor]

that's fine

the buff pandemics

you just want to maximize uptimes basically

[whole mason]

My calc presents that if you are doing 3 env in shiv, moving the middle one out to a period that you do not have env buff can do more dmg since 20% boost is somehow too little.

[warm parcel]

what calc

[balmy condor]

you calc is whack as fuck

but if you have a sim showing that pooling during shiv is a gain

I'd love to see it

[late grove]

wait, you're saying if i have 4/5 CPs and i'm not inside a burst window (shiv, etc) i should pool to max - 30 energy everytime before i press envenom?

[warm parcel]

In simple terms

You dont lose out on anything not spamming envenom away

Rogues resource limited

Not gcd limited

[balmy condor]

yeh

[warm parcel]

So casting spell under an amp window vs raw

[balmy condor]

the concept is you're not overcapping anything

so there's no point NOT holding it

[loud light]

this is going to be some extreme napkin math isn't it

my spidey sense is tingling

[whole mason]

what in my calc is that a 4cp env for 2k dmg gain a 400 from shiv and if placed in a period where env buff is 0, it gives 5sec of env buff and on average 3 more application of 150poison dmg.

[late grove]

ok cool thanks

[warm parcel]

I dont wanna derail; how many envs do you usually fit into shivs and with what talent

[balmy condor]

oh boy

[warm parcel]

vigor or ds

[balmy condor]

it is extreme napkin math

[late grove]

i can only get 3 with vigor inside shiv and only if i have an sbs charge or 2 as necro

[warm parcel]

Cause to me 2 with ds seems to be about what you can get

Without some lucky procs

[whole mason]

That's why someone told me my calc is correct and # of env in shiv does not matter that much

[balmy condor]

the number of env's in a shiv doesn't matter much, but pooling during a shiv is just silly

[whole mason]

I'm not saying pooling in shiv

[balmy condor]

??

that entire thing is "pool during shiv to get one out of shiv"

[whole mason]

I mean you can pool less before shiv

[warm parcel]

Its the same thing

Youre moving an envenom out of shiv