assassination

[limber lion]

We have never recleared after that

[subtle tundra]

dang do people do that?

[gusty mirage]

Cev's a GAMER

[limber lion]

Apparently

We're a 2 day guild though

:p Was forced to play Outlaw on that fight :((

[gusty mirage]

you're just a gamer

[limber lion]

That was one of the worst pulls as well, but I'm glad we killed it so doesn't matter.

[gusty mirage]

good parses on every spec

[hollow escarp]

yeah, you just need to 1 phase it

[storm forum]

I stop my guild from making me play outlaw by not owning a weapon for it 🙂

[hollow escarp]

and don't suck at the game

[subtle tundra]

i think you can go to council in like 3 bosses cant you?

[frail fossil]

mfw we do one by one commando strat on slg

[limber lion]

I'm a mega tryhard though, I spend ungodly hours researching/practicing.

[subtle tundra]

shrieking sun king xymox

[frail fossil]

i swear i didn't know it was possible to make slg more miserable

[limber lion]

Ye

[frail fossil]

until we did the slow commando strat

[gusty mirage]

after progging on council for 3 raid nights

[limber lion]

But our guild struggled so much on Council that they wanted to extend

[gusty mirage]

I wish I'd get benched tbh

[limber lion]

I've never even killed Council

Because I benched myself

[gusty mirage]

that fight is literally awful

[limber lion]

Just tell them you have a migraine and you'll be benched

Worked for me

[frail fossil]

council is ok

[subtle tundra]

meh i would be really annoyed if my guild extended that early in progress

[gusty mirage]

I'll just not log on

lmao

[limber lion]

Yeh, that works as well :p

[gusty mirage]

"Sorry guys I fell asleep after work"

[subtle tundra]

i want gear

[gusty mirage]

we lost one of our DKs to real life stuff, and our RL doesn't want to re-do xymox with 1 dk

so we're in extending purgatory

either council dies, or I die emotionally

[limber lion]

How far are you in the progress atm?

Getting to Nik?

[gusty mirage]

we're getting nik to 50%

[limber lion]

That's pretty good!

[gusty mirage]

but people are padding on the waiters during nik and he's obliterating our tank

lmao

[limber lion]

Soon ™️

[gusty mirage]

"what's happening to the tank????"

idk dude

he turned big red and angry

[limber lion]

Lmao

[gusty mirage]

meleed our tank for 80k

[hollow escarp]

[gusty mirage]

idk what happened

also our holy pally and disc priest do more attendant damage than half of our ranged DPS

its such a mess

I switched to attendant twice and was still top 5 in dmg to attendants????

I just want things to die so I can get my anima power and move on tbh

idc about my parse or my performance or whatever, I just want the boss to die

[hollow escarp]

I had 4200 dps

[gusty mirage]

but you killed it 🙂

that's all that matters

I had a 10 parse on our inerva kill

[hollow escarp]

I have grey outlaw parses

[storm forum]

I have a 1 parse 😢

[hollow escarp]

[gusty mirage]

I had a 1 parse on our heroic council kill because the healer in charge of healing melee didn't cast 1 heal on me during the drain essence

this healer also sat in ghost wolf for 90% of our attempts on hungering destroyer one night, his top heal was miasma...

[hollow escarp]

look at this parse

[gusty mirage]

he no longer raids with us

[gusty mirage]

stop putting me on blast

😦

[ionic kelp]

[gusty mirage]

but tbh I just think I'm an above average player at best, so I take any orange parses I can get

[limber lion]

See, that's how it all starts

Then you suddenly start getting orange parses consistently

And then at some point they're not enough

[gusty mirage]

I just don't have it in me anymore Cev, I'm a boomer

I've played this damn game for half of my life on earth (idk if I should be proud or sad about this)

[ionic kelp]

getting purple mythic parses are still really good

[gusty mirage]

and I know I'm sloppy on my rotation, but my attention span isn't what it used to be

[limber lion]

Purples are way above average for sure.

[gusty mirage]

you know how many times I've had to refresh bleeds in shiv windows and I just sigh outloud to myself?

[limber lion]

But see, noticing mistakes like that is a huge thing.

Some people never notice what they're doing wrong

[ionic kelp]

^

[limber lion]

You shouldn't kick yourself down for making mistakes, but be proud that you can spot your own mistakes.

[storm forum]

If i refresh rupture during shiv i get tilted out of my mind for the rest of the night

[ionic kelp]

could solve it too by making your WA a bigger focus

[visual prairie]

is it worse to notice and not fix it, or to not notice?

[stoic needle]

@frail fossil https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3vb6wkRardDjoZjnU89JXS

[storm forum]

somehow refreshing gar during it doesnt though for whatever reason

[gusty mirage]

I've had to move away from the WA packs and just make ones for individual spells that play loud noises lmao

[stoic needle]

i think spriest wins because sin has to use a legendary to get their execute while spriest gets it for free

[frail fossil]

Spriest just does more dmg overall yes

[gusty mirage]

yeah but we look cooler doing 1k less execute dps

[stoic needle]

and i think their cds line up better in a 3 minute situation whereas we only get 1 vendetta

[gusty mirage]

so that's a win

[frail fossil]

can u make a sim of to see, how much of a modifier in execute zoldyck is compared to doomblade

cuz i mean if it's 2% over doomblade it's not rly that great

[stoic needle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pbSWqKstEfL6Q86dCi21rc

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6obYAdmrGhwk8su73ZAk3S

its more if u get 2 vendettas in execute

and in general the difference between doomblade and zoldyck in the execute phase is about the difference between doomblade and zoldyck outside of it

% wise

[frail fossil]

so like 5% ish ?

[stoic needle]

3.4%

[frail fossil]

[clever vapor]

Is blindside bis for single target and EP for 2+ targets?

[frigid kestrel]

Yo is that mechagnome hologram thingie good for anything?

[hollow escarp]

yes

[winter vapor]

MA legendary doesnt really change ST rotation in m+ right?

[hollow escarp]

used to be good to proc 3rd boss in Plague fall

now it's just mirror images

[storm forum]

do those taunt? they could be good as makeshift treants in M+

[hollow escarp]

I think they only take aggro off you

not other allies

[limber lion]

It might, especially if you run Vig/MFD.

1 extra second of MA means more gcds and potentially more finishers.

With MFD you can fit 3 Envenoms in one MA window

With Shiv (to full CP) - Vanish - Env - Mfd - Env - Muti - Env

[frigid kestrel]

Hmm I was hoping you could use them like cardboard assassins

Wonder if you can use them on Spite

[winter vapor]

running vigor atm, so maybe trying to line up the second garrote with the most amount of shivs?

[hollow escarp]

I think they also have a cheat death

[limber lion]

Second garrote?

[storm forum]

they do, it's like shaman nature's guardian where it procs at 20% and heals them (no DR)

[winter vapor]

running Subt. so

[hollow escarp]

yeah, just checked it now

not a bad race overall

[limber lion]

What do you mean most amount of Shivs?

I don't understand the question, sorry.

[hollow escarp]

@storm forum

[topaz trout]

During your opener with MA and Deeper Strat after vanish do you Envenom at 4+ CP or 5+ CP

[winter vapor]

eh i have to go to work now but ty for help, i will look into it later (apologies for tpying nonsense)

[limber lion]

5-6 CP with DS.

[topaz trout]

ty

[wooden cave]

Can anyone explain this ordering to me?

[clever vapor]

man... ds sims 50 dps higher for me, but I feel so clunky with it

[limber lion]

What do you mean?

You Shiv before Vanish, because you don't want to use Shiv during Vanish

You use 2 Muti's to get to 5-6 CP so you can use Envenom

And you use Envenom when you get to 5-6 Cp

With DS you are always forced to use 2 Mutilates during your MA window

So it doesn't matter if you Vanish at the start, or after building to 5-6 CP beforehand

It doesn't matter if it's vanish - muti - muti - env

Or vanish - env - muti - muti

Or vanish - muti - env - muti

You always get the same amount of Envenoms/Mutilates.

[wooden cave]

Wouldn't it make more sense to double mutilate - shiv - envenom - double mutilate?

But this way you extend the shiv window where you are having an effect on it

Does it push the cd too much?

[storm forum]

so* you get the envenom buff right at the start of the shiv?

[limber lion]

No, because you want to use Shiv on cooldown as much as possible

The golden rule of Shiv still applies:

"Always press Shiv on CD"

[wooden cave]

Yea so its not worth trying to delay it 2s to get 1 more envenom inside of it?

[heavy skiff]

it doesnt rly matter tho the dps diff is rly low

[subtle tundra]

depends on rng anyways

[wooden cave]

True

Like i might be completely wrong in doing this but i've always mutilate - mutilate - shiv - vanish - envenom - mutilate - mutilate (Unless 4 CPs then i'd envenom?)

Or am i using some scuffed vigor mentality?

[limber lion]

Yes.

Always press Shiv on CD.

You preemptively always apply bleeds and pool for energy/cp

But if it's not on cooldown, you press it.

But honestly, it doesn't really matter in which order you do your abilities in the opener

The dps variance is very marginal, even if you moved Shiv a few GCD's

[wooden cave]

Yea i can see the point in that. Could also scuff a few sec of vendetta window regardless having the same result

[limber lion]

But if you miss out on a Shiv cast because you delayed it in the opener, then it's a bigger deal.

[wooden cave]

Thats true

[hard atlas]

if im running MA lego what talent do i run?

[limber lion]

In raids or M+?

[hard atlas]

M+ mainlky

[limber lion]

You should use EP NS MFD CT

And open on packs with:
MFD (in stealth) - Crimson Tempest - Fok - Rupture - Fok - Rupture

[hard atlas]

mfd?

[fallen arch]

Marked for Death

[hard atlas]

im also venthyr

if that matters at all

how bad is it if i got vigor and not MFD?

[heavy skiff]

if u run MA then mfd NS is rly good because u can get a buffed CT with NS

[limber lion]

Doesn't really matter, only matter on ST.

You just slam it on CD on AoE

[heavy skiff]

if u dont run mfd then u need to get the cp from the previous pack

[limber lion]

Really bad.

You either run NS MFD or Subt Vigor

Subt Vigor is fine with MA, but NS MFD is the goat.

[hard atlas]

ok ill try to learn that more

[heavy skiff]

i run MA NS MFD on lower keys and subt vigor sold on high keys

[limber lion]

I run MA NS MFD everywhere.

Did a 19 Mists yesterday, around 7.9k dps.

[heavy skiff]

rly? how does it do on higher keys?

nice

[limber lion]

Mists is pretty loaded thoug.

[heavy skiff]

gonna give it more love then i guess

[limber lion]

On a 19 SD it was around 7.1

[heavy skiff]

yea i love mist as sin

[pastel shale]

Something about that just feels cheesy compared to subt/vigor

[limber lion]

You just do damage differently

With the NS/MFD/CT your main damage is your CT.

[heavy skiff]

ur main damage is always CT xD

[limber lion]

Whereas normally CT is #2 or #3.

[heavy skiff]

i have CT on top always

even with subt vigor

[storm forum]

CT is usually tied or slightly ahead of gar for me on subt vigor zoldyck

[fallen arch]

!bis

[limber lion]

Droptimizer in Raidbots.com should do the trick.

[storm forum]

It also depends on the key level, in lower keys gar is always my #1 cause packs die faster, but the higher keys CT over takes gar

[limber lion]

Well, what do you think about this

https://gyazo.com/df726ff64cc17749e103d186f6baa8c5

[storm forum]

uhhhhh

what

[limber lion]

That's because Raidbots combines the poison dot and the instant damage portion of it. Details doesn't.

[storm forum]

OH

[quasi widget]

what talents do people run in dungeons?

elaborate planning and crimson tempest?

[simple stratus]

and subterfuge

[limber lion]

There's a few variants.

[storm forum]

Elaborate Planning, Iron Wire, Alacrity and Crimson Tempest I think are mandatory, then your level 25 and 30 talents depend on your build/legendary

[limber lion]

With Zoldyck:
EP / Subt / Vigor / CT
EP / Subt / MFD / CT

With MA:
EP / NS / MFD / CT
EP / Subt / MFD / CT
EP / Subt / Vigor / CT

Yeah, pretty much what Lanille said as well.

You always run CT, even on tyrannical weeks.

And yes, you do use it in single target outside of Shiv windows.

[simple stratus]

master poisoner will be viable one day

[hollow escarp]

mists is also great for outlaw

wtf

I'm blind

[storm forum]

Master Poisoner had its time to shine in Legion

[limber lion]

Yeah, with PB being broken.

[shy dust]

Outlaw is always great for m+*

[simple stratus]

i wish more people played assass in keys, i somehow ended up the number 1 NA assass rogue just by doing 20s 😦

[hard atlas]

the EP mandatory is in M+ right?

[quasi widget]

with no lego what would you guys do for lvl 25 and 30 talents?

[hard atlas]

i was told blind side is better in raids for ST

[limber lion]

A lot of people struggle to find groups to do them with.

[hollow escarp]

chat didn't scroll down and I responded to something about sin in Mists

[pastel shale]

it's all about the kidney shot bleed talent

[limber lion]

I queued to around 50 keys yesterday and didn't get accepted to any.

[simple stratus]

just lie to them

[limber lion]

Yes.

[shy dust]

It’s not about groups

[limber lion]

This is correct.

[simple stratus]

"Yes yes, I am pirate rogue.."

[shy dust]

The best players would be playing sin if it was better

It’s just not for keys

Therefore it’s going to be much lower

[hollow escarp]

that's the same argument for Deathly Shadows over other outlaw leggos

[storm forum]

i got accepted to a 19 SoA and 20 Mists PUGing this week which was nice, got some good pushes with my guild push group too

[simple stratus]

Rae, I disagree for one dungeon specifically. I think Assass is better than outlaw for DOS

[shy dust]

How

[simple stratus]

ardenweld

and aoe cap

[storm forum]

5 vs 8 target cap

[shy dust]

And there are other areas

[limber lion]

They're both bad there, just get a fire mage.

[shy dust]

Outside of ardenweald

[simple stratus]

most groups are making 40+% trash on that side

[storm forum]

for DoS my group's marksman hunter swaps to boomie

[simple stratus]

and assass is better st on bosses

[shy dust]

Well it is yes but I feel like you can understand the difference between specs and a lego in a spec that is very variant

[shy dust]

Hmmm

Can you sim yourself on a st boss

With m+ talents

[simple stratus]

why?

[hollow escarp]

fight duration @shy dust ?

[shy dust]

Because you’ll notice the st is not that much higher or even

With outlaw

[simple stratus]

my group often runs two rogues, one outlaw and lately in DOS ive been assass

[shy dust]

Outlaw brings very strong st for m+

[hollow escarp]

is 1 min good Rae?

or 2?

[simple stratus]

i know but assass is higher, its not a lot but its better

[shy dust]

Probably 3 mins

You’re sacrificing a ton of your st

By speccing into m+ talent

[simple stratus]

not really

[shy dust]

My guy

[simple stratus]

my dude

[shy dust]

I lose my like 700 dps

[visual prairie]

my pal

[shy dust]

Going from raid build to m+ talents

[simple stratus]

thats great but the point isnt what you lose as assass vs assass its outlaw vs assass st in dungeons

[hollow escarp]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8wv8qhCbNW6isoxrS338KQ

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3GUNLrz6CBaTtHM8PzWGCu

[hard atlas]

so if im at 4 CP in my shiv window, do i just envo? or get a mutllate?

[shy dust]

Yes

[hard atlas]

yes i mut or yes i envo with only 4?

[hollow escarp]

sin still 400 more dps ST

[shy dust]

But you lose your niche

[storm forum]

mut with DS talent, envemon with vigor talent

[shy dust]

Also

[limber lion]

That's also using all raid buffs

[heavy skiff]

can u do one with subt vigor and zold?

[shy dust]

Using your profile is moronic

[limber lion]

You won't have WFT etc. on M+

[shy dust]

Is your gear equally good for both

One sim has an Iqd

On a 3 min encounter

Ofc it will do great

[simple stratus]

what niche? outlaw lost its niche with all of the mobs recasting which diminishes the value of gouge

[shy dust]

Lust is enabled

Outlaw is one of the best specs for constant aoe

Outlaw still brings high st damage

[hollow escarp]

hmmm, let me disable those

and use soemthing else than IQD

[hard atlas]

@storm forum and if im MFD talent?

still at 4 yes

[simple stratus]

no one is saying outlaw is bad but im saying assass is better in DOS specifically

[shy dust]

Yes but

There exists more

[storm forum]

yes

[shy dust]

Than ardenweald

[simple stratus]

for top groups

not really

[shy dust]

Yes there is?

[hollow escarp]

and I made my outlaw set with the best gear I had for outlaw

[shy dust]

Ardenweald is a lot of percent yes

[simple stratus]

the majority of their trash percent comes from that side, groups full shroud mecha side

[storm forum]

I just simmed and I only lost 200 dps between raid talents and M+ talents

[stoic needle]

This is just completely untrue

[simple stratus]

its not true, almost every mob in SL recasts on gouge

[stoic needle]

No they don't?

[simple stratus]

yes they do

[hollow escarp]

gouge is still very good

[simple stratus]

go to spires and gouge a burden

[stoic needle]

Mate I've been doing keys all week, only like 1/3 of the mobs recast on gouge

[hard atlas]

i was told use mutilate from stealth and not ambush now, becuz ambush is shit now that true?

[limber lion]

!mut

[prisma monolith]

Ambush is currently only used from blindside/sepsis proc, not from stealth.
The reasoning is a little complicated, but the most important of them is the difference in combo points on crit (up to 4 vs 3).
Some other factors to consider are increased poison applications, blindside, and doomblade. This is true for all talent combinations and legendaries.

[simple stratus]

mate ive been doing keys as well, its more than 1/3

[subtle tundra]

only look at the important casts

[stoic needle]

Even if they all did gouge would still be good because it gives time for your teammates kicks to recharge

[simple stratus]

gouge is nowhere near as strong as BFA

[stoic needle]

And yet it's still amazing

[shy dust]

Still a good ability tho

And

Outlaw still brings very consistent damage

[simple stratus]

it is, but it has diminished value in SL

[shy dust]

Which is a strength in itself

Yes we acknowledge that

Still a good ability

[hollow escarp]

gouge is the reason my friends want me to play outlaw, but I do less dps as outlaw

[shy dust]

Having a psuedo interrupt

On a 10 sec cd

Is pretty good

[stoic needle]

Not even to mention all the un-kickable casts it allows you to kick

[subtle tundra]

man someone says gouge isnt as good as it used to be in bfa, whole discord attacks him

[shy dust]

No one is attacking him

Is anyone insulting him?

[stoic needle]

No, I say that 'outlaw lost it's niche' is BS

[shy dust]

We are just saying it is still a strong ability

[heavy skiff]

sin has some good utility too tbh

[stoic needle]

Because it didn't lose it's niche

[storm forum]

this is the real reason I want gouge, so I dont need to waste CPs every time I want to cancel devour flesh in ToP

[simple stratus]

i dont really care tbh, people use what they want

[hollow escarp]

Iron Wire is underrated

[heavy skiff]

wire is rly good

[stoic needle]

You can say 'gouge isnt as strong as before' without saying ridiculous stuff like 'outlaw lost it's niche'

[heavy skiff]

but the outlaw kit is just better overall

still gonna play sin tho xD

[simple stratus]

im sorry but part of outlaws niche is gouge

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[shy dust]

Also consistent cleave

[stoic needle]

But it still has that niche?

[hard atlas]

ok, so the whole like do NS+MFD vs the SF+vigor, i got lost in the convo

[shy dust]

Strong substained st damage

[hollow escarp]

with a shaman healer, you don't really need outlaw as much

[shy dust]

But yeah no niche at all

[stoic needle]

Just cuz a few mobs recast after being gouged doesnt mean gouge is suddenly useless

[shy dust]

Just like you never need an sin rogue in m+

[simple stratus]

you also dont need any rogue in m+

[hollow escarp]

I'm talking from a rogue's pov

when picking a spec to play

[limber lion]

Sin does do a lot more damage in ST even in M+ when compared to Outlaw.

[simple stratus]

the concept of need is variable

[limber lion]

But Outlaw just has more damage overall and more utility than Assa.

[shy dust]

I mean

[limber lion]

Outlaw is just more flexible

All around.

[shy dust]

Rogue is still a very meta pick

[stoic needle]

I dunno about that actually, sin loses a lot of ST for m+ talents and outlaw doesn't lose any

[storm forum]

I think the real strength of outlaw is the lack of need to constantly tab target to DoT things up. I find it impossible to keep track of more than one mobs in a pack that I need to interrupt/stun

[limber lion]

Here's both simmed with BIS profiles

And M+ talents

[shy dust]

That’s a bit far off

[limber lion]

3 minutes PW.

Without raid buffs.

[shy dust]

Given guy sims for like 6.7k

On 5 mins with raid buffs

[limber lion]

Yeah no shit

This doesn't have any raid buffs

No monk

No dh

No wft

[shy dust]

And I sim for 6.6k with raid buffs

In m+ talents

[stoic needle]

With zoldyck for sin and ma for outlaw?

[limber lion]

Just lust

[hollow escarp]

my sim was also 6.4 outlaw with raid buffs

[limber lion]

I can do another one with all raid buffs if you want.

Even though you won't have any raid buffs

In m+

[limber lion]

MA for both.

MA/KS for Outlaw

MA EP Subt MFD CT for Assa

[shy dust]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wQ71QhoHVuwC53vkannbbo

I’m not sure

How you got 5600

And somehow sin with no buffs does 6500

[hollow escarp]

so now it's no longer moronic to use your own profile?

[limber lion]

It does look pretty funky.

[shy dust]

Well I’m just using an example here

Where somehow according to this sim

Also I’m using an example of an outlaw player with some amazing gear

[wary ice]

I'll kill the mystery

[limber lion]

Aight, I'll sim give it another shot.

With Guy's profile.

[wary ice]

this

[limber lion]

Something must have been fucked.

[shy dust]

Also wait

Sin does 6.5k

[hollow escarp]

but maybe Guy doesn't have sin gear

[shy dust]

With no buffs

In your sim

[hollow escarp]

[shy dust]

I do 6.6k with all buffs in m+ talent and lego

With all raid buffs

Idk about that sim

LOL

[storm forum]

sin is busted idk what youre talking about

[limber lion]

It does 7.3k with all raid buffs in 5min.

With ST talents that is of course

[shy dust]

?????

Ofc it does

[limber lion]

But it doesn't lose like 1k

From switching

[shy dust]

It loses a large amount of dps

Swapping off its purely st talents and lego

To m+ based

And the argument was never which does more st in pure st gear

Ofc sin does

It was that they are similar in m+ kit

[simple stratus]

i lose less than 100 ST dps changing from ST talents to m+ talents in the same gear

[storm forum]

anyone else try to scroll up to figure out what we were originally talking about and get lost?

[shy dust]

You run doomblade in keys?

You run dauntless duelist in keys?

You run MA in keys?

[simple stratus]

no but thats not the debate

it was talents

[shy dust]

You run poison bombs in keys?

You swap off a ton of st orientated things

[heavy skiff]

debate was st in keys, not just talents

[shy dust]

Unless you run dauntless duelist blindside deeper doomblade MA poison bomb in keys

Then yes if you run that you’re 100% correct

I do have a bit of doubt

[simple stratus]

the debate was outlaws vs assass st in keys actually

[shy dust]

Yes

[visual prairie]

i'm just shooting for 87% correct. what do i have to run for that?

[shy dust]

That was the debate

[heavy skiff]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fEUPz5iDsKPy8UbB3T3wWp

[storm forum]

the original discussion was who loses more ST switching talents in keys

[heavy skiff]

same gear but 3 min

[hollow escarp]

sin 5325 law 5303

[heavy skiff]

maybe 3 min fight is just bad for outlaw

and no buffs

[shy dust]

It’s not a debate sin does given outlaw swaps nothing basically

But more so that their st is similar

Given sin sacrifices a lot

[limber lion]

Just did em both:
Assa sims 6230 with the MA - EP NS MFD CT build as Necro
Outlaw sims 5747 with the MA - KS build as Necro

No raid buffs, 3 minutes.

[fallen current]

Single target?

[limber lion]

Yes.

Just fact checked everything and now everything is correct.

[fallen current]

Not surprising to me

[shy dust]

Are you sure about that

Last sim sin did 6.6k

With no buffs

Idk if you’re trust worthy

[limber lion]

Yeah that was fucked.

[simple stratus]

it doesnt matter what sin has to swap, sin ST even in m+ set up is more ST for me than Outlaw and is more so the higher the key level due to more time in 30% execute

[limber lion]

This is correct.

[subtle tundra]

link the sim maybe?

[shy dust]

Oh God

More time in execute

Not this too

LMAO

[subtle tundra]

yea not this again

[shy dust]

why is more time spent in execute

[balmy condor]

It’s just more

[visual prairie]

everyone knows 30% is bigger at higher numbers than 30% at lower numbers

[hollow escarp]

kiting ads

[balmy condor]

It simply is

[hollow escarp]

dots ticking

[simple stratus]

more is better

[shy dust]

So wait

[fallen current]

Just go subtlety

[shy dust]

Execute time increases right?

If execute time increases

Doesn’t that mean

👀

Out of execute time

ALSO

Increases

👀

[balmy condor]

Stop questioning it rae, 30% isn’t always 30%, it could be 40%

Or 20%

[visual prairie]

no see, the other people in their group burn all their cd's and normally that kills everything, but at higher keys that just gets it all to execute range

[hollow escarp]

I'm glad zoldyck is not useless last boss SD

[balmy condor]

Blizzard tooltips or something

[visual prairie]

then they are doing no DPS and i'm executing like crazy

[shy dust]

True

After CDs specs so actually 0 damage

Which really means

Zoldyck has infinite scaling the higher in keys you go

[pastel shale]

tfw the other rogue specs are laughing at us

[visual prairie]

yes, if the mob never dies, zoldyck is supe rop

[pastel shale]

[shy dust]

You’re spending longer and longer in execute

[night bronze]

sub is useless un high key tbh

[shy dust]

And somehow LESS time outside of execute

[limber lion]

to the moon

[visual prairie]

ideally, you kite it onto sanguine when it is about to die and get it back to 30%

to really shine

[fallen current]

Pad time.

[stoic needle]

Can you link the sim? Not cuz I don't believe you but because I want to play around with some different profiles

[hollow escarp]

I always disliked that people preferred to mock and be sarcastic instead of dismantling bad arguments. It's always been like that here

[pastel shale]

crippling poison too ofc

[hollow escarp]

in sanguine

[shy dust]

I asked him

A question

He never responded

[balmy condor]

We’ve dismantled bad arguments a billion times

The same bad arguments in fact

Repeatedly

Every day

[pastel shale]

do i shiv on cd

[wary ice]

I mean 70% of this channel is saying bad arguments ironically

[balmy condor]

Yes

[wary ice]

and the last 30% is complaining about people parroting them seriously

[pastel shale]

what about this insanely niche scenario

would i shiv on cd then

[balmy condor]

No, I think you would shiv on cooldown

[storm forum]

no, you delay it up to 10 second to get it to line up with vendetta

[shy dust]

This is a very common argument

You can just counter with

More time in combat means more time in execute yes

[visual prairie]

but at higher keys, the last 30% are complaining about parroting way better

[shy dust]

But also more time outside of execute

[balmy condor]

The “more time in execute” is such giga brain lag

It’s insane

[shy dust]

Which should be around the same proportions of combat time

[storm forum]

at higher keys I get a second vendetta in execute 🤔

[balmy condor]

I blame outlaw brain

[stoic needle]

tbf i had that idea before i played outlaw seriously

[balmy condor]

You don’t have to incriminate yourself

[stoic needle]

i'm proud of my stupidity

[fallen current]

[shy dust]

It’s not stupidity really

But just use some logic

[stoic needle]

nothing is wrong with being wrong sometimes

[simple stratus]

in m+ talents as sin on a ST sim, im doing 6624, in outlaw m+ talents and set up using standard MA/KS, im doing 5952 dps in ST sim

[storm forum]

but im never wrong

[shy dust]

And you can understand yeah it’s still around the same % of time in and outside

[hollow escarp]

isn't this in the same zone with "sin does low damage in low keys because mobs die too fast" ?

[balmy condor]

But a streamer told me

[storm forum]

how much io do i need to never be wrong?

[stoic needle]

it does if you're dropping 4-5cp ruptures on everything lmao

[limber lion]

Can we all just agree that Outlaw is better for M+, Sin does more damage in ST and all go on our merry ways

[hollow escarp]

my crits are just too stronk, only 4-5 cp foks

[stoic needle]

well if sin does that much more ST in M+ talents thats an extremely valid reason to play it

[simple stratus]

spoiler, it does

[balmy condor]

No, this is the most lively this channel has been in weeks

[hollow escarp]

hey

[shy dust]

Not really

[hollow escarp]

at least sin does more damage than outlaw on first boss in Mists

[shy dust]

ST is not that important in keys

Unfortunately more so when fire mage

Shits out st damage

While being godly at aoe

[hollow escarp]

give me them btags

because I always do more damage on prides

than fire mages

[stoic needle]

it doesnt make it optimal but you can't say that's not a valid reason to play it

[shy dust]

I doubt that

Given the higher you go

Mages start combusting pride

[wary ice]

^ i was typing that

[simple stratus]

play what you want to pl ay up until your group needs you to do otherwise. if youre trying to get in to pug groups then its a different story

[balmy condor]

[storm forum]

in my group mage combusts pride before bosses and I vendetta prides before trash (19/20 keys)

[shy dust]

You’re not going to beat a fire mage blasting a prideful with the almighty combust

[balmy condor]

Now we’re beating fire mage combusts?

[shy dust]

Sure

[simple stratus]

no, not even vendetta beats a pride combust

[heavy skiff]

we do the same

[shy dust]

Ofc it doesn’t

Vendetta is 20 seconds

[hollow escarp]

I was talking about individual situations

[shy dust]

Combust is 12 for some reason

[stoic needle]

delete fire mages

[shy dust]

Don’t know why it needed 2 extra seconds

[balmy condor]

Like when

[simple stratus]

but vendetta on a pride is the same as AR on a pride, both are letting the mage sit his combust for the next pack

(or her)

or they?

them

[shy dust]

Well

[mellow pier]

It’s not the same as AR because of CDR

[shy dust]

Ar is a very short cd

[balmy condor]

You said always

[shy dust]

Vendetta is a hard 2 mins

[balmy condor]

How is that individual situations

[storm forum]

i mean with good routing combust was used on the pack before the pride so combust is on CD for the pride

[simple stratus]

i think he was suggesting overall on dungeon

[storm forum]

wait i think i read something wrong

[simple stratus]

which is true, rogue should be above mage overall on prides at dungeon end

[shy dust]

Nope the higher you go prides are very dangerous

[hollow escarp]

it's from personal experiences in pugs

[balmy condor]

What

[shy dust]

So mages have to combust them

Or you skip them

Sure there are scenarios where the mage won’t combust them but they generally do

[hollow escarp]

they should do yes

[balmy condor]

Mages combust prides
Mage combust > our vendetta
“Yeah but mage lower on pride damage”

[hollow escarp]

I mean

[balmy condor]

So then

[hollow escarp]

if you wanna say it like that

[balmy condor]

Are they combusting

[storm forum]

how high are you talking about? I really wanna know how high you need to go before you need vendetta AND combust on a pride to not die to it

[hollow escarp]

let'

[balmy condor]

Or not

[hollow escarp]

let's bring lawyers when discussing general stuff in this channel

[balmy condor]

Lmao

[shy dust]

If I’m being honest

You don’t ever need a vendetta

[simple stratus]

mages generally dont combust every pride

[shy dust]

Because sin isn’t played in high keys

[balmy condor]

I’m trying to make sense of literally anything you guys are trying to say

[strange python]

gimme cash and i will promote ur side

[balmy condor]

And I can’t

[simple stratus]

thats for the best

[shy dust]

If you’re using a vendetta and a combust on a pride

[hollow escarp]

well I was complaining that I'm playing with trash mages

[shy dust]

You must have entered at a very trash situation

[hollow escarp]

didn't meant to say vendetta > combust

[shy dust]

But generally combust itself is more than fine enough

That’s when other members in the group pick it up if mage doesn’t bust it

[hollow escarp]

or maybe my expectations are too high

[mellow pier]

You’re just too good

[hollow escarp]

ok dude

#assassination message

[balmy condor]

Fair

[soft shale]

just play with 2 demo locks

[mellow pier]

The argument was already dismantled

[hollow escarp]

I mean, I would love to see somebody believe vendetta is better than combust

[mellow pier]

🙂

[stoic needle]

we all have the case of the mondays

[soft shale]

that way you know they will pump

[hollow escarp]

unironically

[stoic needle]

take a deep breath yall

[shy dust]

Then become the mage yourself

[stoic needle]

absolutely not

[shy dust]

And let the greed overcome you as you refuse to combust the pride

[hollow escarp]

I don't know how to jump

[visual prairie]

be the mage you want to see in the world

[stoic needle]

[storm forum]

.... is Rae just a troll? Have been a troll feeder for the past hour?

[hollow escarp]

soon

[storm forum]

[stoic needle]

[hollow escarp]

I have 11 alts max level

[limber lion]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[shy dust]

How am I a troll

[limber lion]

@hard atlas

[shy dust]

I’m genuinely curious

[hard atlas]

ty

[mellow pier]

@shy dust uwu

[limber lion]

[mellow pier]

Troll

[shy dust]

OwO

[hollow escarp]

troll as in Berserking abuser

[balmy condor]

No, rae is one of the only sane people sometimes

[storm forum]

am i the troll?

[shy dust]

I don’t think anyone is the troll

People will say things that are wrong and be proven wrong.

This also includes me

[storm forum]

this is a bad faith non-answer

[balmy condor]

And me

[storm forum]

im literally going back and marking everything that feels off

[shy dust]

I answered your question though

You wouldn’t combust and vendetta a pride

[drifting cloud]

rae is phony he doesnt even play assa in keys!

[shy dust]

I don’t do keys to begin with Tbf

[storm forum]

.....

[mellow pier]

Do people log on wow outside of raid?

[stoic needle]

[hollow escarp]

I farm the AH

[shy dust]

Raid is the only enjoyable content

[storm forum]

I am totally and completely disgusted

both with you and myself

[stoic needle]

https://tenor.com/view/big-lebowski-the-dude-your-opinion-gif-4476328

[shy dust]

Why so

[limber lion]

Big agree.

[mellow pier]

@hollow escarp respectable

[drifting cloud]

I mean hes still higher rio than you even if he hasnt done a key in a month most likely

[simple stratus]

whose he

[hollow escarp]

yeah, but outlaw rio is cheating

[mellow pier]

I haven’t pushed a key since I had ksm

:\

[limber lion]

Actually, I do think m+ pushing can be a fun time as well if you have a group to do it with.

[shy dust]

I think the last time I did semi high keys was a month ago

M+ is just very boring content

[brittle pawn]

yea if i had a group i'd def do a bunch of m+

[shy dust]

Just spam enough keys and you’ll be high Io

[brittle pawn]

but pugging with brazilians all day makes me want to kms

[limber lion]

Pugging M+ is

[drifting cloud]

just wait for push week

[mellow pier]

I would rather just not log on

[shy dust]

Now raiding and parsing

That’s the stuff

[mellow pier]

Then do a key

[brittle pawn]

you do learn fun and interesting new ways to brick keys every single run, though

[shy dust]

Yeah I also learn new ways to want to quit the game every key

[drifting cloud]

for the next 4h im gonna learn how to brick every sire pull

[shy dust]

:NODDERS:

Oh no

[drifting cloud]

should be fun

[balmy condor]

Doomed

[shy dust]

Forsaken

[stoic needle]

[mellow pier]

@shy dust raiding is fun when u just mute coms and try to blast

[shy dust]

Yeah it’s just fun to blast

Parsing is a bit annoying now

[hollow escarp]

[shy dust]

With it all being PI dominated

[mellow pier]

I got a PI on Sun King this week

[drifting cloud]

thats just because youre not happy with r5

[mellow pier]

Was glorious

[drifting cloud]

dont worry rae we know most of your logs are honorable

[shy dust]

Ofc not you can’t be happy unless you’re rank 1

I got rank 2 with only 1 PI

[limber lion]

Sub getting PI?

[stoic needle]

rejoice

for the reign of PI is potentially at an end

[shy dust]

Just nuke Asia logs

Or separate them

They’re crazy

[mellow pier]

They used to be

[stoic needle]

that's cringe

[mellow pier]

They sell parses

[brittle pawn]

ban china

[mellow pier]

Not cringe

[shy dust]

Yeah

Some new passassin

[stoic needle]

its more than just asia feeding people PI

stop the nonsense

[shy dust]

Has like all rank 1s

[gloomy fern]

100% pi uptime is nice

[mellow pier]

8 buffs

[drifting cloud]

youre just jelly because your guild doesnt like you enough to give you 7 pis

[mellow pier]

Lmao

He just didn’t spend enough $$

[shy dust]

Asia just sells PI a lot

[hollow escarp]

man, somebody stole my rank 1 Normal Shriekwing

[shy dust]

And is more noticable in the All star ranking

[hollow escarp]

nvm, it's last tier

[mellow pier]

Now we’re selling

So there’s even less chance to do well

And I’m not heroic geared now

[shy dust]

Fair

[strange python]

Lol

[mellow pier]

Give everyone PI

Only fair way

[drifting cloud]

how is 8 pis 100% uptime

[hollow escarp]

bring back expedient, so it's the same shit

[strange python]

I think they should just make pi priest only buff

[shy dust]

That must be bugged actually

[gloomy fern]

get one prepull that dont count

[mellow pier]

@hollow escarp maybe then we could drop alacrity

[drifting cloud]

youd need 13 there for 100% uptime

maybe they overlap and logs count them wrong

or something

[balmy condor]

Not sure how it counts overlaps yeh

[mellow pier]

I’m going to try and get a shriekwing PI this week

I’ll spend some gold

[soft shale]

priests are big brain so they faerie warriors themselves

for cdr on PI

[mellow pier]

Mine is a booner

😦

[shy dust]

@storm forum I’m a bit petty so

I would like to see how I’m a troll

[limber lion]

@shy dust Do you play IQD on Sire?

[shy dust]

Ye

[balmy condor]

Trolling

[mellow pier]

U madman

[shy dust]

It works pretty well outside of me messing up this week

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

Not sure if I should as well or not

I'm thinking about it

[shy dust]

If you’re separated from the disc

[limber lion]

[shy dust]

You’re safe in p3

[hollow escarp]

no execute proc?

[sullen pagoda]

U dont tqrget boss easy

Target

[hollow escarp]

[shy dust]

^

[hollow escarp]

just got the trinket for the first time this week

haven't played that much with it

[shy dust]

It’s a fun trinket

Get the crit buff and basically have 100% crit for MA

[hollow escarp]

my healer loves it

[shy dust]

feels nice

[hollow escarp]

you can't avoid giving mana to healers, right?

if you press it while they are low mana?

[shy dust]

You can’t

Well

I heard lust stats

Is higher prio than mana

[balmy condor]

It’s true

[shy dust]

And even then

You need to have a grasp of the fight a bit

IE I can run Iqd on every boss like shriek sludge council slg sire

But huntsman my 2nd use is always mana

Just gotta use it and test it out to see how quickly your healers oom

[hazy crater]

double hpala in p3 dena

IQD stonks rising

[shy dust]

Yes that would be large

[gloomy fern]

rae living life with pi, windfury and the whole shebang

[shy dust]

I don’t get PI almost ever fwiw

I did on artificer at least

3 PIs secured

[wheat parrot]

Any1 got any idea if the 15 str on gloves actually does anything for agility classes?

[shy dust]

Don’t believe so

[balmy condor]

Does nothing

[shy dust]

Not accounting for the cool factor

Ima start equipping eternal strength and eternal intellect

[hollow escarp]

I have strength on gloves

but shaded hearthing is too good

[civic jolt]

hi guys, new to rogue here, i like assassination spec the most because of the bleeds type of damage, my question is, for m+ why do people use Zoldyck legendary the most if adds dont live long enough for the <30% damage? im not thinking in raiding, just ocassionally/pugs, is there any legendary i can use for both m+ and raid with good performance in both? i dont mind dropping a bit of dps in raid

[balmy condor]

That legendary would be zoldyck

I’m not really sure what you mean by “don’t live long enough for the <30% damage”

[thorny rose]

Yeah 30% is 30% regardless of how fast things die

the math is the same

and you don’t have to do anything special once the mobs hit 30%. All your bleed ticks will automatically be stronger

[civic jolt]

ye that what i meant, i was thinking about things usually die pretty fast

true

[balmy condor]

Yeah 30% is 30%

Regardless of if that’s 5 seconds or 10 minutes

[civic jolt]

what about dashing scoundrel? is that bad?

[loud light]

arguably the last 30% even tends to take up a little more time as people pop their CDs on pull usually or are holding them for the next pull

[golden plume]

am i supposed to dot every boss on council?

[balmy condor]

It’s pretty good in raids, can be used in m+, but it’s not really something that people run

[balmy condor]

I would dot 1 additional, dotting 2 usually means a lot of running around, which will lose you dps

[golden plume]

okay, ty man

[civic jolt]

on bloodmallet appears to be below doomblade but also over zoldyck in aoe, that why i have so many doubts been new

[balmy condor]

Yeah it’s just not the desired lego anywhere

[civic jolt]

trying to figure out a balance to craft with the low amount of soul ashes i have as a new rogue

[balmy condor]

And if you’re using dashing in m+, you have to run poison bomb

Which is pretty questionable a lot of the time

I would really suggest zold or ma

[civic jolt]

ok, didnt thought about poison bomb but im not running that for m+

[balmy condor]

With dashing you would

[civic jolt]

i discard it then 😛

now i understand why i dont see m+ logs with dashing

[balmy condor]

I mean according to sims it’s playable

I just don’t know of anyone insane enough to actually craft a dashing to test that in practice

[clever vapor]

Is there a haste/crit neck that drops from somewhere?

[limber lion]

No.

The HoA neck is very haste heavy neck with little mastery.

[clever vapor]

I am using that one

should i 220 it?

[weak horizon]

Is it ever worth delaying CDs for thrill seeker?

and if it is, what kind of stacks of thrill seeker should i consider delaying at?

@balmy condor

[limber lion]

You should sim it and Azure-Venom Choker before you do.

[limber lion]

No, never.

[clever niche]

droptimiser at +10 weekly should give you the boost for it

[limber lion]

You don't play around Thrill Seeker.

[unkempt ginkgo]

Do you use both garrote and rupture on 1 additional or just one dot?

[balmy condor]

yeah you never play around any buff

@weak horizon

nothing is strong enough to actually change our rotation really

[balmy condor]

both

[unkempt ginkgo]

Thanks

[final star]

heck ye

[limber lion]

Grats :p

[visual prairie]

rupture is worth it on other boss in council? spending combo points and energy just for some energy?

[final star]

garrote only

[shy dust]

rupture and garrote

[balmy condor]

rupture and garrote

[visual prairie]

6 point rupture gets you 87 net energy which is less than the 2 mutes it takes to generate the 6 combo points

feels like not worth the trouble

[mighty bolt]

Guys, for ST Phantom fire or Agi?

[stoic needle]

does nightstalker snapshot with flag o.o

[balmy condor]

no

[balmy condor]

!oil

[prisma monolith]

Using consumables will increase your damage, however the difference between oil/stone/potion combinations are very minor (within 0.5% of each other). You can sim the difference for yourself by pasting this pastebin underneath your /simc input, in the "advanced sim" section of raidbots: https://pastebin.com/Lbxc7afJ

[balmy condor]

really not sure how your math works, but it's definitely wrong

[visual prairie]

it costs 25 energy to cast rupture. you get 8 back from teh 14 ticks, right?

net 87?

[balmy condor]

there's more than 14 ticks though

unless you have 0 haste for some reason

[visual prairie]

ok. good point

[balmy condor]

and you're not counting the damage from the mut, or the poisons

[spring tinsel]

So in my shiv windows, I'm usually getting only 2 envenoms outs, and 3 only if I get a blindside proc... should i be getting 3 envenoms regularly during these shiv windows or is 2 normal?

[balmy condor]

doesn't matter how many you get in

1 is fine as well, if that's what your rotation currently allows

in keys I don't even get a single envenom in aoe

[visual prairie]

why would the damage from the muts count. whether you spend the cp on rupturing another boss or envenoming the one that counts, you dont' do more mutilates

[spring tinsel]

why not? they're dealing 34% increased damage, so shouldnt i aim to get as my envenoms out as possible?

im talking strictly ST

[balmy condor]

you just said it's net 87 energy, that's 1.5 mutilates

[visual prairie]

yeah, but you spent 6 combo points too

it costs energy to generate combo poitns

[balmy condor]

you should, but shiv should be thought about as another uptime

[balmy condor]

but you're still getting more mutilates

you can see this all for yourself by doing priority_rotation=1 in a 2 target sim

the priority damage goes up when you rupture an off target

[visual prairie]

i don't know what that is, does priority rotation only count the damage on the main target?

[balmy condor]

it's a modifier in sims that changes the APL to use certain lines in order to maximize the damage on the main target

garrote and rupture on an off target each increase priority dps by about 200

[visual prairie]

how much does just garrote raise it?

you were right, i wasn't considering the extra damage you'd gain from the extra 86 energy i think, but those 1.5 extra mutes would still have to be more than the envenom and it's buff that you sacrificed, right?

[balmy condor]

not if that energy can be used during a time where it's more important

[visual prairie]

no let's not try to optimize for some burst window. lets just consider total damage

[balmy condor]

but that's the same thing

if that energy allows an envenom during a shiv instead of out of shiv

isn't that more total

[spring tinsel]

should i be lining up my flaggelation with vendetta or should I just use it on CD?

[limber lion]

Just use it on cd.

You can try to sync the last one if you know you won't miss a cast.

[earnest remnant]

from what ive checked just glancing over a couple of mythic council kills, it dosent appear that people are cross dotting for energy but just going full st

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5WZeVLEFZRKxV7mwWWMKu7

[spring tinsel]

also do i use CP finisher on 5 CP (using deeper) or should I use another generator and get it to 6?

[balmy condor]

you finish on max-1 for all talents

[spring tinsel]

ok cool thanks

[limber lion]

You can use garrote to get to 6 as you don't risk losing combo points that way, but that should be only ideally done whilst garrote is in pandemic.

[visual prairie]

well, i don't know the apl logic syntax well enough, but that seems legit. it's weird that both optimization together adds a lot less then the individual contributions of each

[balmy condor]

diminishing returns on repeated gains

[visual prairie]

so if you can do it without losing uptime, would it be worht it to rupture the third boss as well?

i imagine so?

[fallow river]

Which covenant is currently best for assassination rogue?

[balmy condor]

priority rotation limits on 5+ bleeds

so you would go to 5, and no higher

[visual prairie]

like total bleeds on all targets?

or 5 targets?

[balmy condor]

5 total

[wary ice]

whats no cycle mean?

[balmy condor]

so that could be 3 garrotes and 2 ruptures, or if you're playing subterfuge for some reason, could be 5 garrotes, no ruptures, etc

[balmy condor]

not cycling from target to target

[naive surge]

Is sbs affected by zoldycks?

[balmy condor]

yes

[naive surge]

Oh dope ty

[quaint dragon]

is venthyr or necrolord better for m+?

[stoic needle]

necrolord

[gloomy rose]

is the damage of the poison trinket from plaguefall increased by mastery?

[balmy condor]

no

trinkets have no interaction with class mechanics

[gloomy rose]

thought so, but man can hope, thanks

[balmy condor]

np

[stiff tapir]

It’s not increased by zoldyck ?

Does that mean sbs is not impacted by zoldyck ?

[shy dust]

Scroll up

Like 1 measly scroll

[stiff tapir]

Lmao

Thanks

Tomorrow can’t come any slower.

[stoic needle]

it does scale with vers though 🙂

[balmy condor]

everything scales with vers

that's kinda how vers works

[stoic needle]

sorry, bad joke

[royal lantern]

HE SAID THE S WORD

[raven hollow]

I'm kinda struggling with the MA opener in M+. It seems way better to FoK+CT in the MA window, but then I'm missing out on Subterfuge-buffed Garrotes and that's not good either

[balmy condor]

if you play subterfuge, you triple garrote

if you play NS, you CT from stealth into fok ruptures

[raven hollow]

Is it a pull size thing? Don't worry about the garrotes in the opener at 5+ mobs?

[balmy condor]

I mean, with NS you would open with rupture on 1-2, and CT on 3+

with subterfuge you always garrote

[stoic needle]

NS+MFD+MA is the way

[balmy condor]

1 garrote for each target you have

[grave dock]

but you wouldn't go more than 3 right?

garrote 3 times in subt, then you'll get to 5 bleeds with ruptures

[raven hollow]

But its like 15-20k burst in the MA window to FoK+CT :(