Yeah im not good enough for Mythic and HC doesnt really care about compositions anyways
#assassination
fallow notch
bright turret
oh yea then just play whatever tickles your fancy
fallow notch
Would like to try out Mythic, but once everything returns to normal I cant raid anymore anyways:/
Still wanna parse purples where I can and compete with guildies so for now Outlaw is the spec I guess. And I dont have proper daggers
worn path
It’ll be interesting to sim the new flag
strange python
Is there any way to currently? Or nah
late birch
Im running MA and subterfuge, When my vanish and vandetta come off CD while fighting , do I wait for SHiv to come off cd as well or do I just go? and during vendetta I dont reapply any ruptures or SND right? I just try and squeeze out as much envenoms as possible?
floral fractal
Quick q - Im thinking of having assassination as my OS, will assassination get better in future patches ? thinking of crafting zoldyck leggo today
balmy condor
Is there any way to currently? Or nah
no
balmy condor
Quick q - Im thinking of having assassination as my OS, will assassination get b...
depends entirely on what borrowed power we get
floral fractal
Hmmmm, i may just max out outlaw this week then and craft assass another week
balmy condor
there's no baseline reason as to why sin should get stronger than other specs
"scaling" as the hip kids call it
is by in large just a big fucking meme
that the community latched onto for god knows what reason
floral fractal
^^ Thanks for your answer 🙂
icy crater
Because scaling actually used to be a thing I think
icy crater
literally though
My favourite thing is burning crusade
rogues are bad in t4 then good with warglaives
strange python
Legendaries are good yes
icy crater
and thats not even the same scaling people talk about today
worn path
The “scaling” is severely hindered by the DR on secondary stats this xpac. You won’t see classes hitting certain secondary stat breakpoints as easily as you would in past xpacs
vestal wren
we have to many other systems that impact the balance to make any guess purely based on stat scaling
balmy condor
The “scaling” is severely hindered by the DR on secondary stats this xpac. You w...
this seems really bait tbh
vestal wren
just one example are conduits, some scale linear, other ones exponential
rogue ones scale linear mostly and are rather weak
balmy condor
I'm not actually sure how many breakpoints actually still exist
outside of like frost mage shatter cap
vestal wren
other classes could have both a better curve and higher baseline making them power creep up
breakpoints are a bit of a hoax
worn path
this seems really bait tbh
In the past classes like spriests were labeled as “hard scaling” because if you look at their secondary stat dps gain per point it’s usually a lot higher than other classes. For example rogue might be 1.3 dps per haste but spriest might be 1.85 per haste. So in the past when secondary stats were more potent they obviously reaped the benefits
balmy condor
In the past classes like spriests were labeled as “hard scaling” because if you ...
with "in the past" we mean like cata right
worn path
Yeah it’s mostly borrowed power but I believe that’s where the original source of “scaling” came from
Yes
balmy condor
okay
cause that hasn't really been how things have functioned in the last 6-7 years
vestal wren
casters usually have hard breakpoints to get the gcd down enough
balmy condor
Can’t believe mop was like 8 years ago. Fuck me im a boomer
almost 9 years ago XD
vestal wren
for rogues, players often assumed haste breakpoints are valuable.
e.g. they had a certain value the sim did have haste go down after
but this often did just mean that the sim barely get enough energy to use another spell during a damage window
worn path
I believe the only notable “breakpoint” for sin has been 32-33% crit for optimal chances of getting 3 cp from mutilate? I don’t remember many others
vestal wren
and the sim was so tight in timing that you would need still higher haste levels in game to be able to do the same reliably
balmy condor
I believe the only notable “breakpoint” for sin has been 32-33% crit for optimal...
uh oh
vestal wren
in general the rule for stats is that having a balance between them is good
worn path
<:lul:585739277548388352> uh oh
It’s the only one that I even remember 😂 I just sim top gear so idc about break points
balmy condor
34% crit meme from 8.3
is like
one of the most notorious memes in here
for just being full of shit
vestal wren
if you don't invest in one stat its likely that it gets very strong in impact just due to the nature how stats interact with each other
worn path
Is it as good as the 40% crit for current sub rogues to be optimal in m+?
spice spire
Did someone say 34?
balmy condor
Is it as good as the 40% crit for current sub rogues to be optimal in m+?
oh god 
all the stat breakpoint memes
I think 34% was worse tbh
worn path
My sides were hurting with foreverguy talking to this guy about 40% crit on sub
balmy condor
cause so many more people were playing sin at the time
and more people heard about it
than the 40% nonsense
worn path
I don’t even think it’s achievable right now
spice spire
34 was the first meme I saw here. 
vestal wren
there is no reason it would make subtlety suddenly better, but if you want to use it as justification to play subtlety i would say you absolutely should do it
worn path
there is no reason it would make subtlety suddenly better, but if you want to us...
I think the premise is that every 3rd ss would crit and re apply FW
balmy condor
but wouldn't that be 33%
worn path
But where he got that info from us as well known as Jupiter after the rover melted
See you’d think that
But he was on another plane of intelligence
balmy condor
I mean I think its obvious to everyone
that said person just pulls data out of his ass
vestal wren
PE is the most potent conduit on subtlety, what means you already have a higher crit chance during symbols
symbols also makes your next builder (storm on aoe) crit
so you get dr from high crit due to both of that
worn path
Yeah you always spend symbols on ss in aoe basically.. but that shit was gold. I’ll have to touch up on 34
vestal wren
its easy to just do a sim
sim you char, take the stat values
add the needed stats to crit to make it 40%
add the same amount of additional stats to sin/outlaw and make a comparison sim
worn path
Honestly, if I get to play sin and reroll vampire just as flying gets added I’ll be super happy. I’m tired of my dps fluctuating by 20-25% playing outlaw.
vestal wren
you can also just distribute the stats diffrently, it would possibly be less effort
how much crit rating is 40% ?
worn path
I’m not sure atm, I don’t know when the DR’s apply or how harshly the scaling is. Trying to finish up work shit before BlizzCon but I’m getting distracted by all this whispyring
gray fjord
that said person just pulls data out of his ass
He knew da wae, buddah.
vestal wren
check the pins
balmy condor
how much crit rating is 40% ?
if you start with 0% crit, account for the DR as well, you would end up at roughly 1400 crit
strange python
dang sub got fucked.
worn path
Not really, they just suck at cleave and outlaw is almost just as good at ST
Sin just got buffed a bit so it’s caught up to sub
strange python
anyone know how they looking in pvp?
vestal wren
sub is still behind outlaw in the sim even with 40% baeline crit
outlaw is slightly less ahead
but expected because the stats i switched to crit are not the best
buoyant gulch
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
worn path
For ST^
worn path
Yeah for stats
Yeah 40% crit sub is just a meme lol
Im gonna steal that sim and go fuck with guy for a minute
ancient sonnet
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/izCwRSiTSYSjET9nd5N8zr im assuming it reccomends doomblade to me purely due to my gloves being 213 and the stat upgrade is worth more than the legendary effects
balmy condor
doomblade is also just a good legendary
vestal wren
thats the default, without changing stats:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xvEiBCEJ1B9Mjn5Wbw7tZD/simc
but again, its expected, if you reduce your haste significantly
late veldt
So how do you guys use CT, ive seen people spamming it. I just go for the refresh and prio garrotes/ruptures
balmy condor
So how do you guys use CT, ive seen people spamming it. I just go for the refres...
maintain until you get into like 6+, then you can use it over envenom, which is more "spam" if you'd like
ancient sonnet
yeah i get that doomblade is good and in 905 its gonna be even better, but im trying to figure out what leggo to make and i believe the stat gain to be skewing the results of the sim
balmy condor
but you should still be maintaining garrotes/ruptures for energy
ancient sonnet
well for leggo effects anyway
balmy condor
yeah i get that doomblade is good and in 905 its gonna be even better, but im tr...
its possible, yes
worn path
Im sitting on 6k soul ash waiting to see how sin makes out in 9.0.5
ancient sonnet
i think it is, 213 - 235 in terms of stat gain alone is huge, ill probs go with DS
ill likely get some gloves at some point
stoic needle
You should probably go with zoldyck
ancient sonnet
i have it 225 but i only play sin for ST and play outlaw in dungeons
so im focused purely on ST gains
stoic needle
You should still go zoldyck
worn path
I’m excited to see the changes to the vendetta cd legendary. Hopefully sin gets to the point it was in legion with the vendetta weapon relics and zoldyks lego
stoic needle
Because outlaw does better st than sin, so there's really no reason to play sin for st. In those situations the execute zoldyck provides is more valuable than a few dozen more dps from dashing or doomblade
Which is a reason to play sin over outlaw
ancient sonnet
fair enough
stoic needle
During the execute phase sin does top 3 dps in the entire game
Only unholy and arms come close
ancient sonnet
sounds good for sire tbh
ancient sonnet
do you multidot on council for energy?
stoic needle
Even though you look like shit on the meters your boss damage is good
Only garotte and just one tbh
ancient sonnet
ok so dont rup all 3? thats the boss we're progging right now
icy crater
I have like no crit gear at all but I wanna switch so sin, maybe next tier
stoic needle
Yeah don't rup all 3 that's a waste
calm dome
Because outlaw does better st than sin, so there's really no reason to play sin ...
Talking about ST, I think Sin can beat Outlaw on Hungering M , with the mechanics putting us away from the boss
ancient sonnet
my best log on hungering was as sin i believe
stoic needle
That's fair
worn path
You just cloak the devour cast and don’t lose any dps uptime
stoic needle
Well you can do that as outlaw too
worn path
That’s what im saying
calm dome
I keep cloak when I got miasma and devour
worn path
Melee doesn’t leave hungering and just soaks their own orbs, you stay on the boss during devour. Outlaw should still do more if your raid is doing the mechanics that way
ancient sonnet
i wish the sepsis power worked on ST all the time, sometimes it pops on st sometimes it doesnt
limber lion
Peen has literally less than one point more than me on HC. Feels bad man, forever second.
calm dome
Melee doesn’t leave hungering and just soaks their own orbs, you stay on the bos...
as you said , depends on your raid's strategy
but Hungering M is probably where Sin will compete with Outlaw on ST fight
stoic needle
Unless they tune the rest of the legendaries higher I don't see anything unseating zoldyck as our best legendary
I feel like doomblade or dashing would have to be like 200+ dps higher than zoldyck to be worth using
Right now it's only around 100
fleet whale
doomblade now 100% mutilate bleed
vestal wren
zoldy is not the best legendary for pure st output
fleet whale
it isn't but in progress the execute is hard to beat
limber lion
It's the best all around, similar to Finality for subs
vestal wren
but its super valuable on progress, so you rly want to bring it
dark vigil
dont you dare
fleet whale
new doomblade with maim mangle
stoic needle
It's worth simming
balmy condor
new doomblade with maim mangle
yikes
stoic needle
I want maim mangle to be good so bad lol
balmy condor
mutilate damage is super boring
doesn't work with mastery
I generally just disagree with more generator damage
it doesn't feel good
it doesn't, in my opinion, play into spec fantasy
double dose at least was like "okay we play around envenom a little"
that I can sorta get behind
but maim mangle is just a super boring "your generator is now more damage"
stoic needle
I like it within the context of the doomblade synergy
candid quarry
i see that the sim uses muti in the opener and not ambush? is that right?
stoic needle
If doomblade's dot actually did notable damage maim mangle would be awesome
candid quarry
how come muti and not ambu?
stoic needle
Sin with baseline blindside, ct and alacrity 
echo cargo
Make poison bomb great again 
dark vigil
i think baseline blindside would be thematic
stoic needle
Agreed
gray fjord
Echoing Blades or riot, I say
Probably one of the best additions Assassination had for actual heavy AoE burst.
gray fjord
And crimson tempest spam is much different? xD
I'm just saying with Master Assassin it'd be huge damage all the time on pulls
The leggo version, not the talent.
strange python
Crimson tempest was standard
balmy condor
I personally would love a system where you can play into weaknesses and strengths based on talents
like baseline sin shouldn't be able to burst
royal lantern
sin should get a aoe ability that interacts with bleeds/multidotting
royal lantern
like
balmy condor
and your sustain will suffer
royal lantern
malefic rupture as a rogue ability and im happy
royal lantern
but its rogue, so it wont happen
short hamlet
That's an awful lot of customization you're hoping for @balmy condor
balmy condor
well yeh
short hamlet
For a small independent firm
gray fjord
I liked your google doc you did a month or so ago btw, Whispyr.
It is nice to see ideas/talent builds that can suit different needs, which is something that seems a bit lacking overall.
royal lantern
we all like whispr
royal lantern
reroll mage or paladin?
balmy condor
my pvp tips: idk just fucking stun lock and do burst with MA or some shit
gray fjord
Pretty much nailed every major PvPer's video
Throw in some mentions about a 'Go' situation and using pillars, boom
balmy condor
being 227 equipped helps too
slow marsh
Stun everything so your mage can bust and hit evis or envenom a couple times to pretend you're contributing
gray fjord
That's how I got Blood of the Enemy R3 in BfA, not gonna lie.
icy crater
just kill the enemy team 4head
gray fjord
Real talk though- What do y'all think about new Flagellation? (Once the second half of haste works) Not referring to damage output since that still is kinda up in the air due to not working correctly yet but how it plays/feels/etc.
dark vigil
it seems very good
slow marsh
Honestly I think it'll just be a numbers game
dark vigil
considering haste is also very good for us
gray fjord
I've found it seems a lot less cumbersome but obviously requires a target not dying during the first half or you lose opportunity
limber lion
Should feel a lot better than the previous iteration, but it's similar to Sepsis now where it's just hit and forget
slow marsh
Haste for 24 sec on a 1.5 min cd costing no energy is juicy
gray fjord
I honestly picked Sepsis because it's just a filler move. xD
slow marsh
Just depends on the actual numbers
dark vigil
and it now will do decent damage too
limber lion
Like you just continue your normal generator/finisher rotation like you would and just get some extra deeps for the first dozen seconds or so
gray fjord
I was just unlocking my renown on the PTR, so I was going to check if the Lashing Scars conduit actually did extra lashes at the 270% AP value or the lower value from the regular ones.
balmy condor
Real talk though- What do y'all think about new Flagellation? (Once the second h...
gud
gray fjord
Haven't touched Venthyr in months so not sure how that plays out
limber lion
But it's much better than the earlier one
slow marsh
Its honestly just competing with burrs imo
gray fjord
Yeah burrs is pretty thicc. >>;
slow marsh
Flag has to carry the weaker soulbinds
Though 3% dmg flat is great for ST...
Fights aren't ST anymore
gray fjord
That's kinda where NF has such a strong edge
You have a great ST soulbind
And a fantastic M+ soulbind
spice spire
But thrill seeker is so good 
slow marsh
I would say theotar for m+ because 500+ mastery is pretty nasty for aoe
gray fjord
I honestly might just go Venthyr if the improvement is enough to be a minor DPS loss because my usual M+ group doesn't have a Venthyr. lol
stoic needle
I'm excited to be able to wear my blade cape and not be completely inting my group anymore
spice spire
Theotar is the better soulbind imo. Can’t tell you how many times in raid thrillseeker would proc during like downtime so it’s like not having a soulbind
stoic needle
Yeah I think theotar is a bit better, wasteland propriety stacking with flag is going to be juicy
gray fjord
Yeah it's a lot like Guile charm for Outlaw, you can proc the red buff on an intermission and then RIP @spice spire
Not that anyone runs Guile Charm but they might with the buff, even at a slight loss xD
Theotar always seemed like a better soulbind overall though just because of the somewhat RNG factor to Nadjia
stoic needle
Nadjia sims better though so people are kinda stuck on that
Anyone who plays venthyr for 5 minutes can tell that theotar is better
gray fjord
Patchwerk is a deceptive thing
stoic needle
Indeed
gray fjord
People don't consider even on a pure ST fight like sludge or shriek
Oh intermission, or Oh partner is chained so I can't go anywhere because they stood in a stun puddle
stoic needle
There's so much downtime
gray fjord
That too
stoic needle
And I don't see that encounter design trend changing much over the next few raids
gray fjord
Unlikely (that they'll change, I mean), Blizzard goes through Phases like tweens do, so I'm sure we'll see plenty of intermissions like Council of Blood and Shriekwing in the future.
royal lantern
they also like those new intermissions cus they allow more heavy raid dmg
cus long intermissions with mechanics you need too do means healers reg some mana
gray fjord
Yeah was gonna say.
gray fjord
I will say the retail version of the Dance Macabre is way more interactive than the beta one was, and way less buggy.
But yeah it's still multiple lengthy intermissions
stoic needle
BOOGIE DOWN!!!
gray fjord
I'm terrible with acronyms, but I assume from Oshoi's message you mean voice acting xD
Yeah they're pretty amusing, though I usually play with sound low/off so I don't appreciate them as much as I should.
stoic needle
I'm praying for a draven buff
I'd like to see the initial trait give a damage buff and built for war numbers boosted
candid quarry
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
gray fjord
I guess the big thing with Draven is he's also considered the 'tanking' soulbind, so the chance of them adding much too much more damage output to what they consider a tank-centric choice isn't very likely. Blizzard (at least from the way I gauge their game design choices) has a pretty set goal for each aspect they put in the game, and soulbinds really are one of the most stark example of it.
stoic needle
It's a shame they had to make both of the 'dps' soulbinds for venthyr so rng heavy. That's why I'm hoping for a draven buff because he's more consistent
gray fjord
Nadjia just kinda screws you at bad times is the problem, you don't have that much control over Thrillseeker.
dark vigil
you dont but most of the time its just a passive proc trinket kind of
but yeah it can happen in weird times
during intermissions
gray fjord
Of course.
fleet whale
wish it worked a little more like BOTE minor
gray fjord
Just like getting burrs on a target that dies can xD
fleet whale
so there is a little more control, or at the very least, not proc during intermissions
gray fjord
Guile Charm (the outlaw rogue thing) works specifically off of sinister strike hits, so if they did something where it worked off a specific ability/cast then that would make it more predictable in general (other than the whole killing things part), though they'd have to alter it to some degree to keep it about the same proc rate I would imagine
balmy sable
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
Just make it proc from flag like wasteland propriety
Or on using a damaging ability
oak arrow
Whoa new cinematic on blizzcon.
balmy condor
you're right
crit is more valuable than vers for cp
because vers doesn't affect cp
and crit does
swift lodge
Did you just... did you just tell the Whispyr to stfu... gasps
dark vigil
simp
balmy condor
lmao
swift lodge
lol
balmy condor
I just try to help however I can
faint canopy
What does cttc stand for?
frigid kestrel
Loss respect for the Rogue Whisperer since his presence in the sub channel grew 
strange python
What does cttc stand for?
cut to the chase
dark vigil
is there any fight besides sludge where sub is even better
sacred yarrow
U asked man
sacred yarrow
I'd rather blow the shields up 100% of the time if I was progging sunking
Is sin still behind sub on sludge btw?
I would assume with the just timings sin would do quite well
Lust*
sacred yarrow
Lame
dark vigil
but the new change to the vendetta cd legneary
i think will be able to get to 1 min
cd
sacred yarrow
That would b huge lol
balmy condor
pretty sure you would take sub over sin on slg as well
dark vigil
eh
execute is pretty valuable on mythic slg
cause all the stone mobs get enraged at like 30%
sinful cradle
you wont really get much value tho since everyone is bursting it down
balmy condor
imagine talking about diablo, in a wow server, in a channel for a spec
dark vigil
dont care
balmy condor
I do :)
balmy condor
there is #wow-general
dark vigil
o
balmy condor
but that's also wow
dark vigil
🙂
balmy condor
so you're looking for #off-topic
vagrant mist
so Cut to the Chase coming back to assa ?
balmy condor
yes
balmy condor
not sure what your definition of "good" is
but if you hate pressing snd
then it's giga
vagrant mist
and also that flagelation change, i think i might change
dark vigil
id imagine if its comparable dmg but since it gives you pretty nice haste
should be a lot diff
dark vigil
nope
balmy condor
id imagine if its comparable dmg but since it gives you pretty nice haste
well yeh but venthyr soulbinds are trash
there's more than just hit button do good
dark vigil
i mean
daunetless duelist is really good for most of the encounters
nadjia isnt bad
but it aint burrs/korayn
balmy condor
well that's the point isn't it
stoic needle
Theotar is da wae
ornate raptor
How do most of you say ? Just sim it later
dark vigil
yeah but sepsis is more valuable cause it works with shiv no?
but yeah
more dmg comes from the soulbind
ornate raptor
I don’t think the venthyr coven will want me back haha
balmy condor
yeah but sepsis is more valuable cause it works with shiv no?
that doesn't really matter too much honestly
dark vigil
it doesnt but it gives it a bit more benefit
balmy condor
sure
dark vigil
i pop it with shiv
balmy condor
sure
eager solstice
!Weakauras
balmy condor
!Weakauras
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
eager solstice
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
sleek otter
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
sleek otter
:pepega:
balmy condor
happens a lot
you'll see people pull up a bis list
and then the very next person
will do it again
no clue why
hazy halo
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
rough scaffold
anyone have any thoughts on Niyas tools for assassination pve & pvp? Seems like the haste from flowers could be ok
dark hollow
dumbest question forever. on use trinkets with shiv or vendetta?
rough scaffold
vendetta for the timing i think. I'm using the auto proc because it has haste on it
Im not using it but i have a /vendetta /use 13 macro that works well
balmy condor
anyone have any thoughts on Niyas tools for assassination pve & pvp? Seems like...
herbs is good in m+, burrs is for m+
dark hollow
even dumber question. any reason luxthos auras are excluded from the list above? intentional for being worse or?
balmy condor
dumbest question forever. on use trinkets with shiv or vendetta?
on use damage is not buffed by vendetta, so actually doesn't matter
rough scaffold
herbs is good in m+, burrs is for m+
Cool thank you. I was hoping maybe embalmers oil would set off herbs - because of hows its written but I ran it just now and dont think it ever went off other than from vial
balmy condor
if it's stats you should use on vendetta obviously :)
balmy condor
Cool thank you. I was hoping maybe embalmers oil would set off herbs - because o...
herbs procs off of passive health regen, recoup, vial, leech, etc
procs off literally everything
balmy condor
even dumber question. any reason luxthos auras are excluded from the list above?...
no reason I think
it just isn't on there
strange python
i need rotation of asasin rogue for pvp
vivid shuttle
they announced rework for honor talents 🤔
rough scaffold
herbs procs off of passive health regen, recoup, vial, leech, etc
oh cool. I just got a 194 trinket with 84 leech (Siphoning blood drinker.) I can get my leech up to 20%. I might try that tonight with herbs
dark hollow
@balmy condor ty. appreciate everything you do in here for real. 
balmy condor
rough scaffold
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
echo cargo
procs off literally everything
does that mean the more sources of incoming hp the more herbs procs, or is it capped?
rough scaffold
haha me too
lean fossil
@balmy condor hows that guide for sim going? i know i asked you a few days ago and you tried saying youre not good enough to make one. i think this whole channel will disagree lol
lean fossil
dont sell yourself short bud haha
i just hope they buff sin so we arent bottom of the pack anymore
tho its hard to gauge where we are due to so few parses
balmy condor
I'd say it's fairly accurate
sin and sub are both fairly low end specs
there's some niche to each
but like
overall, not great
lean fossil
yeah hope we can hit mid at some point
balmy condor
it's skewed for sure
lean fossil
doubt we would hit top end
fleet anchor
Like hard to know if a 100% parse on some of these fights for Assassination is really a 100% parse
When there's 6
Compared to other specs 😛
lean fossil
hey
im the best sin rogue there is
i beat my whole class
those other 5 guys didnt stand a chance lol
lean fossil
that 9% boomkin right behind you lol
fleet anchor
After all that is rank 1/8 and 4/8 for parses 😄
I'm not totally sure anyone truly knows where the percentiles would fall if there were 1k parses or something
I mean Assassination is obviously lower than Mage/Balance
But hard to know how much
fleet anchor
Until more people start giving it a spin, it's hard to get the full range
I assume we'll see a fair bit more Assassination players after the patch though
fleet whale
maybe
stoic needle
Rip my parses 
fleet whale
depends on what rogues get as a whole
lean fossil
depends on what they do to assa
fleet anchor
I mean the changes atm are like.. basically a solid 150-200 DPS free increase for Assassination
Which probably makes it better than Sub
At least
fleet anchor
It is now that they compensated with the VW change
balmy condor
you just get some extra envenoms in place of casting slice 6-7 times
fleet anchor
Just free Envenom damage and buff uptime
balmy condor
idk
balmy condor
there's no way it's 200 dps for free
fleet anchor
It's also how they indirectly buffed Dashing
fleet whale
with all their maintenance falling off
balmy condor
is cttc implemented in the newest simc build koji?
fleet whale
also with higher haste levels, I think the extra VM energy gains more value
fleet anchor
with ptr=1 yes
fleet whale
but idk if snd rank 2 energy regen is additive or multiplicative
fleet anchor
fleet whale
it's like a 3% aura buff
shy dust
balmy condor
dude Idfk
fleet whale
if that sim is true, assuming no changes
balmy condor
how is it that high
fleet whale
does that mean sub is dead?
stoic needle
Go run some more patchwerk 5 min sims whispyr 
fleet anchor
dusky vault
Sub is already dead tbh
stoic needle
Wow
fleet anchor
Probably a bigger change with Dashing
stoic needle
90% envenom buff uptime
stoic needle
Dashing stonks?
drifting cloud
already scaling and not even in 9.1 yet 
stoic needle
So how much is dashing ahead of zoldyck now for st
fleet anchor
I mean it's not like this is broken damage. It's still lower than the Outlaw profile... but it's higher than Sub
lean fossil
@balmy condor i asked last week when would we get near 100% uptime on envenom lol and this channel said back in wod lol. its coming back!
fleet whale
wouldn't be enough for me to take dashing over zold
balmy condor
oh I see
fleet anchor
Bottom is Zold
balmy condor
yeh yeh
fleet whale
but with dashing
sin sim would be above outlaw
with zold being around equalish i think
tidal gorge
lean fossil
im 100% ok being equal with outlaw
stoic needle
wow
people laughed when I said that sin would be equal to outlaw soon
i knew it kekew
fleet whale
yeah, it's cause sin scales better... with buffs
stoic needle
nah i just knew they'd keep buffing us
fleet whale
i mean when a spec is buffed 4 times within half a year
fleet anchor
I mean I think Outlaw has better cleave still so being the same on ST probably isn't enough to take over as the "meta" pick
tropic ocean
boomer grey = rogue r1 big pimpin
stoic needle
I mean I think Outlaw has better cleave still so being the same on ST probably i...
the execute though...
fleet whale
depends on fight though
fleet anchor
Sire is honestly the only fight where the execute is specifically relevant imo
fleet whale
regardless, sin should be pretty good after this change
even if it's worse than outlaw overall
fleet anchor
Main problem Sin has is it has to drop PB to get CT for reasonable AoE
Which drops it back down on bosses
Without CT, the AoE potential of Sin is not very high
balmy condor
the solution is to nerf PB
tropic ocean
@fleet anchor just proc more
fleet anchor
Like here's with the PB setup on DSlice
balmy condor
that way we can fully lean into CT single target
fleet anchor
lol
So yeah, Assassination does become pretty solid, but the buff does less to marginalize Outlaw
And more to marginalize Sub
Because if Sub can't beat Assassination at ST
what's the point?
tropic ocean
100% this season
fleet anchor
It's kinda the unfortunate position
fleet anchor
But Assassination is probably more flexible than Sub in this regard
Where Sub is like
Literal no ST
tropic ocean
in last season u carried all prio and boss dmg
fleet anchor
or literal no AoE
tropic ocean
with haste stack exsang
fleet anchor
pick one
fleet anchor
Sub basically not really being able to "cleave" is a big weakness
stoic needle
Sire is honestly the only fight where the execute is specifically relevant imo
i think the farther you get away from WFR the more relevant the execute becomes
if you're wiping on 1% on bosses sin becomes an attractive spec
fleet anchor
If you're wiping on bosses, just do 1% more damage earlier 😛
dark vigil
if anything, execute is very important for wfr
balmy condor
I would also argue the opposite
fleet anchor
Executes only matter in a practical way when there are hard %-based health transitions
dark vigil
they did.
balmy condor
I think the lower you go, the less important it is
tropic ocean
wat?
fleet anchor
If there are no % thresholds, execute is just damage
dark vigil
in prior expansions
tropic ocean
they stacked dk
dark vigil
yes
tropic ocean
for barrier
tropic ocean
they stacked it for barrier
dark vigil
but during wfr
tropic ocean
XD
fleet anchor
Very few fights like that in this tier
dark vigil
amz, execute, aoe
fleet anchor
Just Sire really imo
fleet anchor
Like for example, could argue that on Council execute-biased damage is actually weaker since lust and burn was usually done at the start of the phases
Not at the end
dark vigil
well
fleet anchor
To push into dance faster
dark vigil
if you have a lot of execute you can play around it
fleet anchor
Just saying, execute is not some universal plus
It can be a plus
But not always
Warriors have always had strong Execute and still would have gotten their ass benched many tiers without Battle Shout 😛
Other than specific fights
dark vigil
yes
tropic ocean
if it wasnt for raid cd
dark vigil
the thing is
dark vigil
and max said this himself
there wasnt a reason to stack warriors for execute because dk brought more
fleet anchor
Fights like Sire and Fallen Avatar are kinda best cases
dark vigil
and also had stronger execute during wfr
fleet anchor
Hard transitions into a difficult final phase
slow marsh
is bis list still actual bis or does it depend on DRs
fleet anchor
At low HP
slow marsh
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
balmy condor
is bis list still actual bis or does it depend on DRs
what?
fleet anchor
That's a big reason so many Rogues played Assassination on Fallen Avatar
But not KJ
fleet anchor
Zoldyck was OP on Avatar
But "just damage" on KJ
And on the easiest part of the fight really
So it's situational for sure
But atm it's probably the case that Zoldyck is tuned strong enough that it's a default pick
slow marsh
How do the BoEs stack against the BiS boots/wrist? Since its same stats just inverse
Actually boe wrists have crit instead of vers so they should be better no?
stoic needle
Like for example, could argue that on Council execute-biased damage is actually ...
i still feel like execute is strong on council because you get 3 execute phases, which is 3 periods of doing more damage than anyone else in your raid
balmy condor
How do the BoEs stack against the BiS boots/wrist? Since its same stats just inv...
boe's are good
fleet anchor
It's the same percentage of the total fight
strange python
^
slow marsh
boe's are good
But how good? I dont want to work for 300k for boots when I can just get a replacement from vault. Also i've noticed some of my gear prios have switched to crit as i'm rising up in haste so that obviously makes a difference
balmy condor
How do the BoEs stack against the BiS boots/wrist? Since its same stats just inv...
the secret is that bis lists are just very very very specific gear sets, there's many many sidegrades to be had
you shouldn't ever be trying to achieve the bis list set
cause that just ain't how it works
none of those items will really be "bis" until you collect them all
which is like
tidal gorge
Ya, and realistically the chance of you getting all the right items from vault is nada
balmy condor
really janky
slow marsh
So crit main haste 2nd doesn't make a huge different when it boils down to it correct
balmy condor
yeh
slow marsh
Cool that's mostly what I was wanting to know because boe's dont show in droptimizer and they are fairly cheap on my server all things considered
tidal gorge
Realistically crit and haste are pretty close. I simmed both together and it was a difference of like 10-15 dps for me
For gems
slow marsh
Yeah i'd imagine as long as you have both you're set
stoic needle
all i can really say about this is poor sub 😦
so how do i sim with cttc? just add ptr=1 at the end of an advanced sim?
fleet anchor
At the top
stoic needle
is it just "ptr=1" or is there some more syntax needed before ptr
fleet anchor
that's it
stoic needle
ty
drifting cosmos
does it mean with cttc we dont cast snd in aoe? or at least, wouldnt be a big loss if we dont
like 3-4 targets
dull osprey
What is the damage difference with opening with mut vs opening with ambush? My bars swap out for stealth abils and removes my mut
so fixing them to not do that is a PITA
balmy condor
like 0.5%
dull osprey
cool
fleet anchor
does it mean with cttc we dont cast snd in aoe? or at least, wouldnt be a big lo...
Probably will have to look at the logic for this a little bit more in terms of how it fits into the Rupture situation on certain target counts
Haven't really looked at it
Since it does look like SnD falls off at like say 5T with CT
Can probably be worked around
stoic needle
definitely seems worth less now that all it gives is attack speed instead of energy
fleet anchor
I mean energy was never the reason to use it at 5T
Have infinite energy at 5T
5-Dashing was the recast critiera for AoE SnD
Just in terms of the trade-off for the AA damage
For 3T probably cast enough Envenoms it doesn't matter
Just have to put some Envenom casts in there for 4/5T probably
But always possible it's just better to hard-cast
Since you get more duration for the single global
It'll be something to look into
stoic needle
is the new flag implemented with ptr=1 in simc?
drifting cosmos
thatd be nice. i do not like maintain snd during aoe tbh
balmy condor
is the new flag implemented with ptr=1 in simc?
no
stoic needle
the tooltip is updated, but the actual mechanics arent, then?
balmy condor
it's bugged on ptr
so the implementation in sims isn't there yet
until we know what it's supposed to do
whole dew
dude for m+ korayn is better or niya
whole dew
ok tyvm
agile geode
I think so
dark vigil
oh definitely
if you can squeeze it out
but on a raid you should be able to use it twice
so just pop at beginning with lust or if they lust later just vendetta on pull and then vendetta whenever they do pop lust if it's below 30%
if they lust at like 50% idk tbh
balmy condor
with zoldyck, should you save Vendetta for the last 30%?
Just like anything else, saving CDs for a better time will always be a gain unless you miss a cast
If you got 1:30 min left in the fight, then hold it, hold sepsis for that vendetta as well, you’re not getting another anyway
But if you miss a cast
That’s gonna be a loss
dark vigil
Real question is would u rather pop vendetta with lust or at 30%
dawn root
I mean you'd always pop vendetta at the start as long as lust was much later? What are most fights these days? At least 4++ minutes?
balmy condor
Real question is would u rather pop vendetta with lust or at 30%
On lust for sure
But these situations are really weird
Like when are you actually running into the choice of holding vendetta for something like that
balmy condor
You should basically always pop on cd
Unless you need it for a mechanic like Kaelthas shield or sludge pillar or sire phase push or something like that
thorn dove
So are they removing the bonus energy regen on snd with the new patch? Im reading these notes and its kind of unclear
thorn dove
Ah thanks. Sorry i kind of get lost in the acronyms. What's VW
balmy condor
venomous wounds
dark vigil
i just realized
my alt sin
i never unlocked tc
i have to wait like 2 weeks to get zoldyck
cause coldheart was just in rotation
me putting off corridors fucked me
consequences of my own actions
drifting cloud
or you can stop cringe posting here and google how to get it without it being coldheart week
dark vigil
there is no way other than twisting corridors
drifting cloud
guess you dont really want it then
dark vigil
do you understand how unlocking twisting corridors works
buoyant mauve
I threw so hard just now on my guilds first den hc kill, got blasted off at 5% at went from 1st to 2nd ;-;
dark vigil
damn
drifting cloud
you know tc prog is acc wide right
dark vigil
it is
but i havent even unlocked it
is my point
you have to do 4 weeklies in a row
on a character
and i just never did it because i didnt care enough and knew they would add mounting to the maw
strange python
Who let this subtlety normy in here
drifting cloud
sure seem to know alot
strange python
I don't think tc is tied behind weekly anymore
strange python
Didn't that get changed like a month ago?
dark vigil
its 5 weeks
the progression for it is account wide, like once you have it unlocked
if you unlock layer 4 and go to a diff char
strange python
You can do them all now - they aren’t time gates iirc
strange python
Like you just log out and log in at bolvar and get a new quest
drifting cloud
correct
dark vigil
bolvar doesnt have a quest
so yea
ik what ur talking about
but they didnt do it exactly as it seemed
drifting cloud
Im inclined to believe blizzards bluepost over you
strange python
/Shrug
dark vigil
ive lvld like 6 chars to 60 now
strange python
Did it all in a week
dark vigil
im very aware of how it works
maybe on tuesday on this char i can do them all back to back
drifting cloud
just unlock it on your main
dark vigil
i could but
strange python
Dunno. I suspect you're missing something but don't know what or where
dark vigil
you have to wait a week after the search for baine
even after the "catchup" was implemented
and i believe on one of my alts i couldnt do the second and third back to back
but that one im not sure of
the first part i am
drifting cloud
weird that you know everything about a questchain you never finished
🤷
guess you waited 3months what 2-3 more weeks
dark vigil
my main sin has it
so its not that big of a deal was just annoying
ill just wait to see anyways since its just tueday if i can do them all back to back on this alt
drifting cloud
dude if you unlocked it on your main you can do it on youir alt
dark vigil
i know
drifting cloud
you can queue into tc
dark vigil
im aware
but now i wanna see if you can do them all back to back the week after search for baine
so ill just wait then
its only a few days
dark vigil
loud niche
My parse says 96%, but when you go to my profile it says 94.. anyone know why?
bleak sedge
Profile checks parses for item lvl and not overall maybe
trim zinc
idk, for ST should i use subt so i can vanish garrote on execute or MA for vanish crit on vendetta?
drifting cloud
were you checking your parse in damage done instead of rankings in the log?
because damage done % are last 2 weeks only iirc
dark vigil
u use subterfuge if theres multiple targets
ma for single target
huntsman-subterfuge, hungering-ma
placid dawn
does feint work on expunge from hungering?
balmy condor
does feint work on expunge from hungering?
yes
dark vigil
loud niche
@drifting cloud thanks!!
kindred crescent
Will the doomblade buffs knock it up to top spot for Lego?
wild compass
hollup
balmy condor
ye
stoic needle
echo cargo
wat
balmy condor
sin post buff stronger than law
gleaming eagle
Dashing is good
balmy condor
single target
echo cargo
bah gawd
balmy condor
at least there's options now
instead of just zold everything
if you don't care about execute
then doomblade dashing stonks
dusk still suck
stoic needle
@balmy condor do you mind taking a look at the simc string for that sim, fuu is getting different results and I'm not sure if i did something wrong or not
balmy condor
yeh I'll look later
fleet whale
i did it! soloed TC layer 8 lol
stoic needle
gratz
fleet whale
i got patrician as my final boss... oddly enough, rogues can handle him better than the melee bosses
i took just about every hp power i could get though
and had no vial cd, and the thing that gives you a random defensive with vial
stoic needle
how much HP did you have at the end lol
fleet whale
230k
stoic needle
thicc
celest ruin
can anyone eli5 the diff between hist% and today's% on parses
fleet whale
Historical is what you parsed are that date
celest ruin
hist% was the parse made on that day right, and todays parse would be the parse it would have been today
fleet whale
Yes
fleet whale
So if you got a 100% parse on a fight, but eventually someone else beat you
Your historic parse would still be 100
restive bluff
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
drifting cloud
well it clearly wasnt 😛
its a r99 today because of all the new parses
yeah usually its the other way around but because assa has so few parses it can be like that
celest ruin
in that case, hist% should be 99 and todays% should be 98 i think
drifting cloud
thats what im saying you actually got bumped up
because all the new parses that flew in none of them beat you
but they made the 99% bracket wider and you went up from 98%
celest ruin
aah that makes sense i guess
drifting cloud
or well thats what the hist % means
pseudo aspen
30%
balmy condor
zoldyck stonks
stoic needle
Ptr sims
iron orchid
hide it
stoic needle
Why would I hide the glorious, shining truth
celest ruin
reroll venthyr and craft doomblade now
iron orchid
Who edits these @stoic needle ?
stoic needle
I did the sim myself
iron orchid
Oh k
sick scarab
i mean give us more "power" than just dps.. execute phase OP
celest ruin
give us a boss that starts with 35% health ala eye of azshara
stoic needle
I changed rogue to night fae
stoic needle
give us a boss that starts with 35% health ala eye of azshara
Please
balmy condor
sylvanas boss escapes at 30% hp
sick scarab
ehehe
iron orchid
sylvanas boss escapes at 30% hp
celest ruin
inb4 they introduce sylvanas boss that starts at 30% health