do we use burrs just for raiding and herbs for m+ ? raid->burrs, m+-> herbs or korayn ?
#assassination
vale marten
@old snow did you play with disc or hpal?
old snow
used to play with both, but recently mostly with priests cause i found a chill priest to play with
vale marten
nice one, gz
old snow
thx bro, ill be making a youtube guide for all stuff like that for those interested in assa pvp
halcyon grail
BRRR BRRRR BRRRRRR
vale marten
yeah would be great, next stop, glad as assa 
old snow
safe totem
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/908525393
I saw you on reddit
old snow
ye ill be pushing 2s a bit more and also start working on my 3s rating
vale marten
you played without master poisoner? balsy
old snow
i find 10% dmg to be much more valuable compared to 3% healing reduction and 10% slow
i only take master poisoner if im in a matchup where i need the extra slow
which is really rare
safe totem
ppl gonna start switching to assa more since Pikaboo started playing it xD
funny how one person can change the meta up
old snow
is he still playing assa or he went back to sub?
halcyon grail
Remember when they promised we'd get deadly poison giving wound poison effect back?
spice spire
also this was the last game for 2.4k just wanna show it off a bit
That play on the fucking Druid was nasty, congrats!
old snow
ye it got scary when he survived all of my dmg and still had barkskin on, but luckly menaged to get kidney on him outside of bear
stoic needle
do we use burrs just for raiding and herbs for m+ ? raid->burrs, m+-> herbs or k...
Herbs for m+ tryrannical, first strike otherwise
fleet whale
Flag is getting changed in 9.0.5
frozen jasper
okay, any reason why ? tempo buff for tyrannical just better ?
gusty mirage
Flag is getting changed in 9.0.5
Yeah idk if the increased melee range is going to do much to make it more viable though tbh
fleet whale
I imagine it’s just a first iteration
Hopefully, it does more than that, and hopefully it will generate some cps
gusty mirage
Yeah I’m hopeful. I liked the aesthetic of venthyr when I originally went there... but meh
I’m an owl boy now, and pretty happy with it lol
feral dune
question, newer to rogue and leveled mine for more pvp. playing assassin. which legendary should i focus?
was think mark of the master assassin or zoldyck (damn HxH ripoff lol)
thinking*
old snow
its not a ripoff its just an easter egg, but you still dont wanna go zoldyck ever haha
you want master assassin, with doomblade being an alternative option
feral dune
this is why i dont believe crap on wowhead lol
"zoldyck is best option overall, period" basically on there
gusty mirage
I feel like doom would be a bit better in 3s than 2s, but that’s just me speculating. I’m scared to pull the assa trigger in pvp
It is for pve
feral dune
i've tried playing sub and it feels weird. not exactly clunky, but not super smooth either
been liking assass alot better
gusty mirage
I’m just waiting for @old snow to release his guide :3
The mad lad hit 2400 playing assa and that was before the last buff
feral dune
i played mostly bgs from 50 to 60 on this guy, after the first 6 levels of that, had to swap from sub
old snow
"zoldyck is best option overall, period" basically on there
i remember reading that there even before shadowlands launched, so its pretty outdated
old snow
I’m just waiting for <@!215815428818075648> to release his guide :3
working on it, will def take few days cause i have no experience in making videos haha
gusty mirage
No worries brother, take your time! We appreciate you doing this
sly elk
Only PvP I ever did on my rogue was during the pre-expansion event hunting folks outside of darkshire. Those were good times
old snow
same, i also didnt do that much pvp before this expansion, some arenas at start of bfa and mostly random bgs
balmy condor
"zoldyck is best option overall, period" basically on there
Are you sure you were reading a pvp guide? Cause all the guides that suggest zoldyck are straight PvE guides
old snow
wowhead says zolydic is the best for everything in its guide
at least it was that way 3 months ago when i was checking it out
vestal wren
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
wowhead says zolydic is the best for everything in its guide
Yes, that’s a pve guide
gusty mirage
Unless you’re talking about the pvp guide, I don’t check wowhead’s pvp guides tbh. They’re usually not the greatest
vestal wren
pvp has a lot of diffrent opinions
so i would just go to your fav. streamer (e.g. pika) and ask there
its a entire different concept of evaluation and therefore guides can have conflicting statements
spice spire
It gives invigorating shadow dust as an option 
gusty mirage
From that pvp guide on wowhead “Here, we list the most impactful and important legendaries; legendaries that are not worth crafting (from a DPS throughput in PvE perspective) are not mentioned specifically.” Seems kinda silly to mention dps throughput in pve in a pvp guide lol
vestal wren
i act like i didn't see the self promotion^^
shadow helm
psure theyre gonna add upgrades to covenants/soulbinds later on
vestal wren
i hope they do something crative
gusty mirage
Them addressing covenant abilities is a good sign though. Their attempt at changing flag is also promising
vestal wren
i don't think that flag was bad in design
just had a rather low impact so it felt bad to use and also some issues that could be fixed
gusty mirage
I think if they just remove the gcd from consuming the stacks it would’ve felt a lot better
elfin skiff
so noob question (well like re-noob) just getting back into wow and want to play 'sin rogue again... was told 'sub was the place to be but w/ the recent buff, is 'sin competitive now?
balmy condor
so noob question (well like re-noob) just getting back into wow and want to play...
Yes, sub and sin are now competitively the worst specs in the game
elfin skiff
so outlaw is the really only good rogue?
balmy condor
It’s a better rogue, but rogue isn’t good right now
So a polished turd is still a turd
elfin skiff
well that's a bummer.
gusty mirage
Yeah we’ve been in a weird spot all expac
elfin skiff
well back to my hunter i guess? 😦
gusty mirage
That pug sin rogue we brought in and fed PI to kept within 300dps of a boomkin. I was so proud 
spice spire
well back to my hunter i guess? 😦
Only if it’s marksman 
balmy condor
the execute is quite good on denathrius
Yeah, the execute is nice when you look at just rogues, but then you also realize that things like death knights just do it better, and have amz, and cloak on a shorter cooldown, and do more damage overall
vestal wren
i don't know how reliable information was that push gave me erlier
spice spire
Just outpump dks EZ. 
vestal wren
but assassination has a better execute damage
so dk still brings other benefits but pure output could go to sin
balmy condor
I think proportionally sin execute might be higher
Like damage increases by X% in execute
But I don’t think that’s enough to just straight up be better
vestal wren
i think it would be easier to cross reference if you could only look at p3 damage on wcl
vestal wren
it does ^^
balmy condor
And it’s too early in the morning for that
vestal wren
its 6pm
balmy condor
9am*
crisp glen
11am**
icy dock
do you prefer zoldyck or MA for m+ ?
balmy condor
Zold
strange python
Zold
stoic needle
okay, any reason why ? tempo buff for tyrannical just better ?
The logic is that first strike and wild hunt tactics loses value on the longer boss fights, while herbs is always a benefit no matter what. Single target and aoe
icy dock
do you also go full haste crit for m+ ?
carmine flare
Is the dismal state of rogues in pve mostly an effect of Blizzard's struggle to balance rogue in pvp alongside pve? I see this argument frequently.
gusty mirage
It’s mostly how much the borrowed power propped us up last few expac
strange python
The loss of Memory of Lucid dreams hurts.
balmy condor
do you also go full haste crit for m+ ?
Vers isn’t bad, but crit does gain some value
balmy condor
Is the dismal state of rogues in pve mostly an effect of Blizzard's struggle to ...
Shit Argument, they can tune individually for pvp
short hamlet
Is the dismal state of rogues in pve mostly an effect of Blizzard's struggle to ...
That's what people cite in the past, but we've literally seen Blizz buff PvE abilities while keeping PvP untouched as recently as a few months ago.
The issue is either:
- In Blizzards metrics, we perform adequately
- Or we don't perform inadequately enough to merit immediate attention (sans Sins recent buffs)
frozen jasper
The logic is that first strike and wild hunt tactics loses value on the longer b...
makes sense thank you
strange python
I think part of the issue too is playrate.
Look at how Outlaw is just taking over in playrate
They get the attention.
oblique flare
it's too hard for blizz to split the game into pvp and pve, requires too much brainpower blizz lacks
gusty mirage
Rogues rarely get “the attention”
strange python
It's the same way with Survival Hunter.
It's a positive feedback loop.
short hamlet
Do we even know blizz considers playrate when designing changes
strange python
I'm... 100% sure they do.
balmy condor
We do not know that
strange python
But I'm sure they also see that people are willing to change classes to what's stronger.
gusty mirage
I’ve mained this rogue since vanilla and it’s a hill I’m willing to die on
short hamlet
So if we look back at Vanilla, which was a giga long time ago, blizz is literally on record saying that the most important thing is that a class is applicable to bring to raid regardless of spec. I think it's more likely that they see Outlaw as being viable and don't feel the need to devote resources to buffing the other rogue specs at the time
Sin comically underperforming being the outlier
icy crater
Rogues also don't fill any niche's and bring basically no utility.
strange python
Comparing Rogue to DK right now....
balmy condor
I think that the assumption that blizzard doesn’t try and make every spec viable is honestly silly
icy crater
I shouldn't say no niche's but the ones they do cover are completely outperformed by other specs
stoic needle
Rogues also don't fill any niche's and bring basically no utility.
They used to which is weird
gusty mirage
I’ve just come to expect that we’re not allowed to have nice things
strange python
Besides DH, Monk, and DK, why bring melee into a raid right now?
Besides DH, Monk, and DK, why bring melee into a raid right now?
short hamlet
I think that the assumption that blizzard doesn’t try and make every spec viable...
I agree with this. I think it's a goal, but maybe one with inadequate resources on their dev side to fix immediately
gusty mirage
People bring havoc DHs?
strange python
You don't need Havoc though.
balmy condor
I agree with this. I think it's a goal, but maybe one with inadequate resources ...
That’s what it seems like
gusty mirage
Havoc’s single target is ass what do you mean lol
icy crater
I know we meme about small indie company blizzard, but I bet you their class design and pvp team is literally smaller than an indie studio.
gusty mirage
Didn’t one of their former class balance devs do a video explaining how they go about stuff recently? And apparently that team is very small compared to other aspects of the game
short hamlet
That’s what it seems like
I also think that their promise to not mess with covenants is holding them back. Boomkin is far, far less dominant when not night fae.
short hamlet
Right
short hamlet
It's hard to tell if the Kyrian druids, for example, are worse
As a self fulfilling meta prophecy
But the disparities between convoke and the field
Are insane
Absolutely insane
strange python
Kindred Spirits lasts for how long though?
You have to compare a 16 spell burst in 4 seconds vs a 30% damage increase for however long.
icy crater
I just feel so useless/helpless in raid to actually do anything with regards to my class specifically.
short hamlet
Your only job is to shroud on pull so other melee can get 0.1 sec more uptime 
icy crater
unironically...
short hamlet
I'll tell you this
Chasing meta in this game is giga meme
Because with borrowed power and raid design things can do a 180 overnight
strange python
It also doesn't have that WCL, Wowhead, other media exists.
They help push the meta with their posts.
icy crater
I just look at logs and rankings tbh man
I couldn't care less about what news posts and what randoms are saying
strange python
But it's understandable because no one wants to put hours and weeks into a class only for it to be trash when the raid tier comes out
short hamlet
It also depends on your guild
If you're bleeding edge
Rogue is benched, yeah
But if you're generic guild #1372672
Rogue is fine
strange python
At this point I'm just going to keep a mage leveled up.
Mages have been top for how many raid tiers now?
gloomy rover
do rogues have anything that increases dreadfire vessel damage or can I just use it on cd?
balmy condor
do rogues have anything that increases dreadfire vessel damage or can I just use...
On cd
gloomy rover
cool beans thanks
short hamlet
In a way Wclogs makes it less painful for me
I can see that my 90 parse is below on a Aff locks 75 parse
In terms of total damage
But it feels decent to know that for my spec, I'm playing well
carmine flare
Shit Argument, they can tune individually for pvp
Of course it is a shitty argument. The one I am reading most recently, which I am sure most have also seen, is that Blizzard should buff subtlety's single target damage since that is its niche, but Blizzard will not do this, according to the argument, because pvpers would whine too loudly.
balmy condor
Yeah that’s just not how that works
icy crater
The problem with sub is that they can run meme builds which do very high damage, so if they buff the proper arena build they will do even more damage with meme builds
Which doesn't really matter I don't think at very high rating, but mid and low rating the community will be in an uproar I feel like
Assa is different though because you can more easily buff the spc without affecting the 1 shot meme builds
strange python
wdym it still one shots though...? XD
MA is kinda cracked ngl
I feel like MA is the reason rogues are in this state..?
Maybe?
Maybe I'm wrong
icy crater
I mean yeah MA is clearly the outlier
strange python
And now it starts to make sense to me.
carmine flare
Assa is different though because you can more easily buff the spc without affect...
This is interesting. So are we saying sub is more likely to be affected in pvp by changes to pve? I thought that those could be made separate.
fleet whale
where is the SBS now affected by sin mastery posted?
vestal wren
thats a ptr change
gusty mirage
The problem with sub is that they can run meme builds which do very high damage,...
they could easily tweak pvp and pve separately, as they've proven this expac lol
strange python
It only buffs mastery for sin rogues though..
fleet whale
well yeah
strange python
and necro...
otherwise mastery is like still bottom tier iirc
icy crater
Sorry if I was unclear, I was talking specific to pvp.
fleet whale
sin mastery buffs bleeds lol
strange python
I was too.
gusty mirage
Sorry if I was unclear, I was talking specific to pvp.
they could tweak pvp builds too so that the cheese is more punishing if failed
icy crater
Like off the top of my head.. make rupture, garrote, poisons do more damage.
That doesn't really change the nightstalker 1 shot meme of assa.
If you try to buff sub it just makes their meme hit harder. So you have to buff damage outside of dance, which just feels like trash anyways.
strange python
I'd like to just be able to play arena without hitting the warrior/monk and hpal wall.
gusty mirage
hpal nerf is actually huge tbh
icy crater
Do you see what I'm getting at
gusty mirage
they're getting out mana'd by disc priests now
strange python
are they>
gusty mirage
yes sir
strange python
i haven't done real arena in over a week now
gusty mirage
also the sac nerf is probably bring back shaman in 3s
icy crater
I've heard the MW mana buffs were actually pretty meaningful
strange python
Affliction mage soon? :D
icy crater
destro mage...
strange python
damp 9 baby
icy crater
We just moved on from bfa ffs
icy crater
Give hunters scatter trap back wtf
icy crater
They destroyed sub and mm when everyone was 10% vers and 22k hp
strange python
I know...
icy crater
like
strange python
They literally killed Kyrian for rogue pvp
even though it had the potion and other benefits.
I just don't understand man..
strange python
make sepsis not purgable
and bring back er for damage
so they can compete with each other
I like how feral was doing good and now it's slowly fallen off again.
icy crater
how is it falling off
strange python
cause it was looking good and now they don't exist so much?
icy crater
maybe in NA, EU LOVES feral
strange python
Like people were playing feral and now it's just nonexistent outside of like a handful of people?
balmy condor
That’s usually how feral works
It looks strong, performs fairly well, but it’s feral, and boomy is better, so the non feral die hards Just reroll
icy crater
I'm so tempted to reroll next tier but I just love rogue so much its hard
topaz saffron
strange python
I was/am a Disc priest main
I've swapped so much because of the way this expansion started off.
The classes I dont want to play (except for Afflock) are all on the top.
i enjoy my rogue because of the fantasy and playstyle but i mostly pvp.
icy crater
I'd never stop playing rogue in pvp tbh. Just for raiding I'd consider something else.
tribal marlin
Is exsg still snapshot haste ?
I want to try a meme with iqd + sheet music to make giga exsg
stoic needle
yeah it does
tribal marlin
imagine with both trinket active which is possible since iqd last 30sec
- PI + Lust
that's a truck load of haste
deft vault
getting pi as a rogue . that aint happening
fleet whale
i mean i believe it is proven that assassination rogues in execute
benefits the most from pi
stoic needle
that's a truck load of haste
Whispyr did some sims on exsang, unfortunately it's not possible for it to be a dps increase over alacrity, even at 127% haste which is the cap. Eventually exsang isn't even worth the GCD to cast it
deft vault
wait really got a link to that. i could use that to finally get pi from my guildies
fleet whale
I don't have a link, but I remember Whispyr and Push talking about it when we got the 8% buff
like a month ago
problem is... it's still a hard sell
deft vault
last time i talked about getting PI i got kicked from the discord lmao
balmy condor
sin is one of the better targets for PI
stoic needle
last time i talked about getting PI i got kicked from the discord lmao
sounds like you need a better guild
deft vault
nah they were joking lol
spice spire
In this discord we only target rogues with PI
balmy condor
hold on a second I'll sim it
trim robin
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
deft vault
how did you do that like lets say i wanted to compare the benefit i gain compared to my guuild mage
balmy condor
external_buffs.power_infusion="x/x/x" where x is the time the buff is applied, in seconds
will give the buff to that profile
balmy condor
5/125/245 yeah
there's also estimates here
the point is, PI during execute (the pi on 3), is about the same dps as a normal pi in the middle of the pull
hushed marlin
time to make a sin lego. I seem to do just as much dmg for half the effort as sub
balmy condor
and the only gain you'd see is with lust
balmy condor
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
strange python
Ty <33
deft vault
WHy does the third pi/vendetta sims the lowest?
SHouldnt we be in execute phase then?
deft vault
Tried it on my rogue and it sims the lowest by like 25dps
balmy condor
hm
deft vault
how?
balmy condor
vary_combat_length=0
that seemed to fix it
so 1 with is with lust, 2 is raw, 3 is execute
deft vault
1st sims way higher for me then 3 then 2. i assume its cause im starving haste so lust has even more value?
i know theres stats dr but is there dr on stuff like pi/lust?
balmy condor
no
the DR is on rating
I think the difference you're seeing might be gear related though
deft vault
if i want to try with a baseline class like you did i type rogue=baseline then its gtg ?
and spec=assa
balmy condor
baseline is just the name of the profile
the easiest way would get the simc import from somewhere
deft vault
ight ill ask my mage simc
spice spire
All rogues are scuffed
limber lion
it's our trademark
spice spire
But also grats on the ez pad. Good shit
limber lion
Cheers. Now I can go back to PoE and grind my ass off there.
dark vigil
Question
how come bloodmallet hectic add cleave
has poison bomb as the last row talent
wouldn't hectic add cleave sim be better to use crimson tempest
balmy condor
probably not optimized
balmy condor
bloodmallet uses defaulted profiles
dark vigil
cause id imagine sustained cleave would be a lot higher
balmy condor
well yeah
dark vigil
also does funneling for sin still work like it did before, im just doing research since ive gotten really bored of tanking
balmy condor
that's the downside of using default profiles
dark vigil
looking to roll sin cause i like classes with good execute and their talent + the legendary is pretty good
balmy condor
not sure what you mean by funneling
dark vigil
funneling is like
icy crater
its using adds to boost single target
dark vigil
yes
balmy condor
well I know what it is
obviously
but I'm not sure how much of that is applicable on sin
dark vigil
baby dick ruptures for energy gain to funnel
balmy condor
or ever has been
dark vigil
max was talking about it on stream 2 days ago
balmy condor
good for him
dark vigil
but wasnt sure how sins were doing now with it with shadowlands changes/gearing and such
since he was saying they're gearing up some sins because he thinks they're underrated
dark vigil
well he meant the funneling
also doesnt sin scale pretty well consdiering haste/crit is prio secondaries
balmy condor
if he's looking for funneling, sin ain't it chief
balmy condor
also doesnt sin scale pretty well consdiering haste/crit is prio secondaries
no
scaling is a meme
icy crater
He also said frost mage funnels the best in the game and unholy has better execute and utility
so there are your answers
dark vigil
well of course
balmy condor
just within rogues, sub funnels harder
our only niche atm is having execute, and good cleave
dark vigil
oh u know what i think ur right
he was talking about how in prev expansion they would fan and evis spam
i got that mixed up
balmy condor
we kinda do that
balmy condor
but we don't have reliable enough cp generation compared to sub
dark vigil
yeah dont subs also have chance to get cp on autos lol
which slice and dice just made that even better
indirectly
balmy condor
yeah, but that's a pretty minor thing
icy crater
honestly my favourite thing about sin is that I don't have to switch my outlaw gear when I respec 🙂
icy crater
dont push hard
balmy condor
use your toes for keybinds
spice spire
^
spice spire
Brake is sinister strike and gas is dispatch. Clutch is for defensive
hidden monolith
big brain boiz
icy crater
down shift is AR
balmy condor
we're holding out on judgement until the changes are finalized
right now, it looks pretty trash
dark vigil
it looks worse than it is now
balmy condor
yeh
dark vigil
cause i was thinking if i went sin i'd prob go venthyr
dont really likt he minigame with kyrian
and i think the ramping effect of venthyr and lining it up with 2 minutes seems pretty strong
balmy condor
all the covenants are within like 2% of each other, especially after the necro change that's on ptr
dark vigil
yea
also less venthyrs overall so for m+ groups and such
shrug
but if its being changed to what it is now that just trash
although if the conduit is unchanged
thats 510% ish hit on 1.5 min
probably doing the math wrong
70% increased dmg form hit and then hitting 3x instead of 1x
170x3?
idk
balmy condor
too early to know
balmy condor
yes but it's day 2 of the change
dark vigil
mhm
balmy condor
and we have no idea if it'll be final
or if it's bugged, or working as intended
so we wait
balmy condor
patch won't be live for another month anyway
oblique flare
also that would be busted for pvp
vietnam kyrian flashbacks 
dark vigil
imagine a sub rogue with that popping out of stealth using their combo and then having a 510% flagellation plus whatever else dmg amps they have
dark vigil
again no idea if thats how it works
id have to make a rogue then hop on ptr
i love how wild spirits is so strong its really the onyl reason why MM is so good rn for pve and yet they buff death chakram by 4%
and w/e with flayed shot omegalul
flayed shot might be the go to for pure st now though
12 sec downtime on it, costs no focus now, 25% increase dmg on kill shot, buffed the bleed by 25%
pseudo hamlet
What's the % for pandemic? It's 15-20%?
pseudo hamlet
Thanks
charred mango
how much haste do we need as assas? im trying to set up an offspec, but most of my sub gear is lacking haste atm
balmy condor
just sim yourself
shy dust
Just sim yourself
dark vigil
but yes
shy dust
You don’t have equal 226 gear
dark vigil
sim yourself
balmy condor
there's no need, no breakpoints, no nothing going on
shy dust
To be able to choose your exact haste levels
charred mango
fair point, just wondering how much makes the rotation feel better. at about 15% now
shy dust
Sim gems enchants
charred mango
kk ty
balmy condor
fair point, just wondering how much makes the rotation feel better. at about 15%...
that depends on what you "feel"
haste doesn't really make it that much faster
you can expect about 2.5-3 apm for every 10% of gear haste
charred mango
at the moment it feels like i get energy starved pretty fast after setting up garottes in apull
spice spire
Blindside fixes that heavily
feral dune
sinful revelation for pvp as well?
balmy condor
yeah
mossy sable
and i think the ramping effect of venthyr and lining it up with 2 minutes seems ...
Is it getting any changes?
I heard something about range or something
mossy sable
Cause currently it is so bad feeling to use
dark vigil
increase melee atk range by 6 yards for 10 sec
current one isnt bad
BUT the thing is
mossy sable
I mean maybe some people like it
dark vigil
the conduit..
dark vigil
increases flag hits by 2 and increases dmg by 70% (at 200 ilvl conduit)
mossy sable
The 2nd GCD gets interupted too often or I miss it
stoic needle
i highly doubt they will keep the conduit the same if they change it to that
mossy sable
And the damage it does and haste is "Fine"
stoic needle
absolutely no way
dark vigil
yeah we'll see
thing is
even if conduit stayed the same
it still prob wouldnt even be that good lmao
stoic needle
seriously? lmao
dark vigil
idk
mossy sable
Any SS of the (Potential) changes
stoic needle
~3k?
mossy sable
Ah
mossy sable
how much are your guys ambush hitting for
So my attack power is 1,243 rn
dark vigil
if it works that way
mossy sable
Oh whoops wrong reply
mossy sable
But like if my attack power is 1,243 how much aproximately could it hit for
dark vigil
since ambush is like 96%
mossy sable
Ah
stoic needle
1243
dark vigil
so it'd hit like 2.5k
and then give your melee by 6 yards for 10 sec
on a 1.5 min cd
pretty bad
worse than it is now
balmy condor
why are we doing jank math
stoic needle
🙂
mossy sable
Cause I am trying to understand how the math works
mossy sable
So I can understand what the change actually might do
balmy condor
Well we don’t know how it interacts with things like the conduit yet, we don’t even know if this is a rework or an additional effect really
stoic needle
i'm just kinda sick of the .0 patch feeling like beta 2.0 that we have to pay for
mossy sable
Well we don’t know how it interacts with things like the conduit yet, we don’t e...
I guess yeah
I just was trying to get an idiea of it really
But that makes sense
stoic needle
i'm trying to think of my own venthyr covenant ability rework to throw up on the ptr forums since they're obviously trying new things
and looking at player feedback
stoic needle
i'm just going to post it and ignore all replies
mossy sable
At the minimum I wish they made the 2nd activation off the GCD
dark vigil
real question
why did they buff resto shaman
100-150% spell power for primordial wave
ele buff too
enh wasnt going necro anyways
unreal parcel
As a venthyr main... this new flag SO FAR does not sound good cause ima miss the haste it gives 😦
stoic needle
Flagellation:
Infuses the target with a burst of anima, temporarily destabilizing their soul and causing the weight of their sins to echo around them for 20 sec. Each combo point spent on the target causes their sins to echo for (2% of the damage of the ability / 6% of your attack power ) damage to up to 10 targets within 8 yards. If the target is alone, the feedback from the echo reverberates and strikes the target itself for 50% extra damage.
kinda like shadowlaced armaments from torghast with a twist, doesn't do damage to the main target unless it's alone and if it is it does bonus damage
i have no idea what the % should be to make it balanced
mossy sable
As a venthyr main... this new flag SO FAR does not sound good cause ima miss the...
Idk what else it does but it seems like it doesn't even adress the issues people have with it
Just damage
unreal parcel
seriously. the only thing we needed was for the 2nd button to be off the gcd
dark vigil
its lame
mossy sable
seriously. the only thing we needed was for the 2nd button to be off the gcd
And more damage would be nice
unreal parcel
i mean and maybe some damage tuning on it
yeah but the haste it gives wasn't bad at all
unreal parcel
^^
stoic needle
i hate the way blizzard just completely throws out ideas that are almost working well
unreal parcel
yeah i'll wait to be upset
mossy sable
Then rage on forums
tender fjord
Anyone mind expressing their view about my log?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/vMWyK94rFRaC32cH#fight=71&type=damage-done
From what I can tell myself, with comparing to one of the top logs is that I cast envenom wayyy too less
And I have a very high rupture uptime, whilst higher logs kinda sometimes dip to just over 80% uptime
I kinda focus on having my garrote and rupture up as close to 100% I am possible to, but apparently it sometimes is worth more to skip out on that
But I can’t really deduct when to do that
stoic needle
According to that log your garotte and rupture uptime were 72%
balmy condor
shriek counts the downtime weird
cause intermission
some things that I'm seeing just off the bat
this vanish is really late, and also is a double garrote on single target, with an unempowered garrote already ticking
that's really weird
tender fjord
According to that log your garotte and rupture uptime were 72%
Yeah I think I kinda compared my sludge logs back when I was at my pc but now I’m linking shriekwing haha
tender fjord
this vanish is really late, and also is a double garrote on single target, with ...
Lol yeah in hindsight I don’t understand that at all 😂
tender fjord
I think I sometimes focus so much on having garrote up that sometimes I do weird shit like that when I see it’s not up
balmy condor
but it happens every now and then
tender fjord
you also have a couple casts at 4cp
U mean really don’t spend until at 5 or 6, even when I don’t have a rupture up?
balmy condor
I mean that you're running vigor, but sometimes you generate on 4cp
you finish on max cp - 1 on sin
tender fjord
I was running deeper strat tonight, it shouldn’t be showing vigor
balmy condor
I wouldn't suggest deeper
tender fjord
It simmed 60dps higher on raidbots
balmy condor
wild
tender fjord
First time I used it tho haha
tender fjord
With a 16 log I don’t expect to do things optimised at all 😂, but when I was in the fights I had the feeling I was doing everything excellent haha
tender fjord
Ye crafted today
balmy condor
there's like emerald nightmare in there
tender fjord
How you mean wild?
balmy condor
and a 14 minute LFR wipe
stoic needle
I'm not quite sure why the log is so low tbh
balmy condor
shits craaaaaaaaaaazy
stoic needle
I'm not seeing a ton of bad stuff in it
And I feel like I'm decent at reading logs
I feel like I'm missing something
Idk why that's a 15, you have good gear, didn't overcap a ton of cp, kept things up
balmy condor
well it doesn't help
stoic needle
That shouldn't give you a 15 though
balmy condor
but step 1
you're using MA as a talent now
this is a very weird opener
garrote isn't empowered from stealth naturally
so instead of getting 3 seconds of high crit from the talent, you really only got 1
from that mutilate
tender fjord
I should mut snd mut garrote rupture then I think?
balmy condor
yes
tender fjord
Feels so weird to do those spenders at avg of 3cp whilst with DS I could go to 5/6
tender fjord
Got quite a bit of haste now and have to say that I didn’t miss vigor at all, but DS is throwing me off I think
dusky vault
I compared my 3 phase shriekwing kill from last week and I cast mut 39 more times and envenom an extra 25 times
so yeah overcapping on energy seems to be it
balmy condor
I compared my 3 phase shriekwing kill from last week and I cast mut 39 more time...
that's mostly deeper vs vigor
unless you also use deeper for some weird reason
tender fjord
Double seems a bit much to just allocate to ds vs vigor yeah
dusky vault
his damage profile is very weird compared to mine too
carmine flare
so instead of getting 3 seconds of high crit from the talent, you really only go...
I do not mean to sidetrack. I just want to clarify. I remember reading about a week ago a post here in which it was said openers do not matter. What does it mean that this is a "weird opener" if there is no such thing as a normal opener.
dusky vault
not that mine is amazing but 75%
carmine flare
question mark
balmy condor
I do not mean to sidetrack. I just want to clarify. I remember reading about a w...
openers don't matter as long as you do all the normal things with your talents and shit
there are things that you can do wrong in your opener that are a loss
that's not what that means
tender fjord
his damage profile is very weird compared to mine too
In what way? You did majority of dmg with env and mut?
dusky vault
thats my damage profile on shriek
balmy condor
openers don't matter as long as you do all the normal things with your talents a...
like if you're playing subterfuge, not casting garrote from stealth, would be wrong
dusky vault
rupture is 2nd for you followed by envenom
balmy condor
similarly, he cast a garrote from stealth when it's not empowered, which is wrong
tender fjord
I think I don’t just hit the boss enough as well
balmy condor
it's a mixture of everything from what I can gather
tender fjord
We take a pretty safe approach to his echoing screech, everybody behind pillar pretty quick
tender fjord
Very much haha
stoic needle
That would also reduce your deadly poison dmg
stoic needle
We take a pretty safe approach to his echoing screech, everybody behind pillar p...
Ah yes the scuffed raid strata
balmy condor
there's a bit of boss downtime, overcapping energy, couple of overcapped cp, missing shiv casts, lower uptime on stuff (I'm seeing like 88-90's)
stoic needle
The natural enemy of the parse
balmy condor
also seems like on that log you got unlucky with ambush procs maybe
cause 12 ambush's in 5:40
is uh
kinda wild
I think normally you would see like 20-25
tender fjord
there's a bit of boss downtime, overcapping energy, couple of overcapped cp, mis...
At least that means I can start improving on a lot of areas 😅😂
carmine flare
@balmy condor That is what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.
balmy condor
np
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> That is what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.
just to be more specific, the comment is towards the notion that like "sepsis here" or "shiv there" or "vendetta too early" and stuff like that
moving around those cooldowns by 1-2 gcds isn't going to make any noticable difference
lot of people get bogged down on that kind of thing where it's like
"YOU CAST SHIV BEFORE THE SEPSIS AND NOT AFTER"
and then start nitpicking about the 4 dps they probably lost on that
tender fjord
Thanks for all the comments all, and the discussion
I’ll try again next week and see how it goes haha
balmy condor
this might sound hella stupid
but when I'm a weird slump and not performing how I want to
I re-read a guide
just reading it, even though I already know what's written in there, helps me for some reason
tender fjord
I just find that the guides on assa are kinda overcomplicated and not really easy to grasp
balmy condor
yeah I mean whatever works for you
tender fjord
But I’ll do that nonetheless
Might also be that I really went down the rabbit hole with subtlety initially, did a small dabble in outlaw and now really enjoy the more relaxed playstyle of assassination
carmine flare
moving around those cooldowns by 1-2 gcds isn't going to make any noticable diff...
Yep, there are obvious dos and donts. The reason I got hung up on this comment was because back in Legion I started paying a lot of attention to my openers, practicing them as stated in guides, and seemed to get the sense from most of the community (in other class discords as well) that following the sequence of abilities in the rotation was absolutely crucial to success. It seems like this former obsession with opening sequences has gone too far to the point where common sense has been dispensed with.
dusky vault
Its funny though that even the more "relaxed" Assa I'm still doing more cpm than the rest of my raid 
tender fjord
Cpm?
dusky vault
Casts per minute
balmy condor
Yep, there are obvious dos and donts. The reason I got hung up on this comment w...
yeah pretty much. There's been a lot of evolution in how class discords try and give information to people and try to explain more confusing concepts. Like stat weights aren't what they used to be
balmy condor
Its funny though that even the more "relaxed" Assa I'm still doing more cpm than...
WCL cpm counts mainhand and offhand hits seperately
on mutilate
dusky vault
ohhh I see; interesting, that makes more sense though
strange python
a lot of info back when used to be very "black/white" " do ONLY this " etc
that's changed over time
balmy condor
it never really used to be true either
strange python
although things like the removal of snapshotting did change that a ton
snapshotting definitely made it all VERY specific
balmy condor
but there just wasn't enough of a shift in community perspective to make it a reality
things like class discords becoming a mainstreamed hub for accurate information
and a discussion type channel like this one
really helped in pushing community perspective away from things like pawn, stat weights, and general feelcraft
and more into evidence based simulations
strange python
yeah, these days it's more about just enriching your knowlege base to actually understand the why's behind things rather than just a to do list
south nest
I just have a really stupid question....Before I Shiv, do I pool here Energy to knock out as much envenom or not?Everyone tells me something different and I'm just confused. And what about the Energy before Vendetta?
balmy condor
I just have a really stupid question....Before I Shiv, do I pool here Energy to ...
vendetta no, shiv yes
the difference isn't huge though
carmine flare
Not sure if it's also relevant: but the synergy between gear sets, two legendaries, artifact weapon powers, etc. may have also skewed things?
south nest
to full energy or only to a certain number of energy
balmy condor
but super ideally, you would hold onto energy, only casting envenom when you're going to overcap
and then dump all your energy in shiv/vendetta
I usually don't recommend pooling to people
tribal marlin
Whispyr did some sims on exsang, unfortunately it's not possible for it to be a ...
I'm talking about 30sec burst damage niche
balmy condor
but casting shiv under like 60-70 energy is usually not great
strange python
lol I don't recommend pooling usually coz it's just not fun 😛
south nest
Thank you
balmy condor
I'm talking about 30sec burst damage niche
I did sims to test for sludge pillars as well
and it was still shit
strange python
I've been having fun being so chill with assassin in our clear bosses lately, but I still have a very sub par zolds at 190 😦
I need to fix that
tribal marlin
I don't believe it. Alacrity better than Exsg on 30sec sim ?
strange python
you have it stacked already on sludge anyway
balmy condor
I don't see the value of a 30 second sim
tribal marlin
It's just a niche
if you need idk
imagine a boss there is an add spawning
that start doing some crazy shit at 30%
and still have a shit load of hp so you can fill entirer vendetta in it etc...
I'd lost some overall damage if I can kill the boss that way
tribal marlin
so because if you do a little bit less damage in amp phase you still kill the boss with overall damage
idk imagine Plaguefall
balmy condor
uh huh
tribal marlin
you need to kill this add on 2nd boss or you die, in like a mythic raid environnement scale
balmy condor
I still feel like that would fall under the same sludgefist-esque fight where you're doing damage and then need priority burst
like even in 20 second burst execute
you would probably want EP + mfd
and still take alacrity
tribal marlin
what a shit talent
balmy condor
I would assume the best exsang combo would be like
ep ns exsang
and then you exsang a vanish rupture a little into your opener
tribal marlin
with ma probably
balmy condor
well this is all within the frame of being in execute, with zold
tribal marlin
for now yes
balmy condor
with MA I'm not sure that you would take exsang either
cause you need to vanish into the rupture, and then exsang
at which point you've already wasted half of the effect
tribal marlin
with exsg you probably save subter anyway
I mean
if you only care about the burst damage
balmy condor
unironically, I think that in this specific situation
I'm talking:
- it's short burst
- you don't have time for alacrity stacks
- you're maybe in execute range
- have all your cooldowns
I would think that venom rush is actually quite good
like this this imaginative dream encounter we've thought up
balmy condor
like the stealth ability?
faint harness
yea
dark vigil
ambushg
faint harness
but isnt ambush quite trash or am i missing something
balmy condor
with mutilates
faint harness
yea thats what i thought too
iron charm
am i the only one where zoldycks dont sim higher than master asassain
balmy condor
oddly enough, the gain from mutilating over ambushing in opener and stuff is mostly threshold related, so the sepsis ambush is actually neutral to ignoring it
tribal marlin
Ambush when cost 0 energy is very good builder
faint harness
yea i mean obviously 
balmy condor
am i the only one where zoldycks dont sim higher than master asassain
happens sometimes
tribal marlin
but deal less damage obviously
shy dust
yes i just mean in execute feel like sepsis ambush would just be a loss
not a noticable one at all
faint harness
well ye
iron charm
would you still use zoldyck for tyrran weeks ?
faint harness
makes sense
balmy condor
it would be about the same as a non-execute really
me and koji argued about this a couple times
stoic needle
would you still use zoldyck for tyrran weeks ?
Yes
balmy condor
cause I think the apl line should just completely ignore the sepsis proc
faint harness
but you lose poison procs by using ambush when poisons do 30% more dmg
balmy condor
while the current line that we have still casts the ambush from sepsis
faint harness
feels weird to just ignore it
balmy condor
when I sim it, it's like 4 dps higher to ignore, when koji sims it, it's like 3 dps down
like the difference is so minor
that there's not really a clear "do or don't" going on
faint harness
another basic question, do we ever hold shiv for sepsis or vendetta, or always slam on cd
balmy condor
slam it unless obviously the last cast you can line up
balmy condor
same logic as symbols applies to shiv
shy dust
Push preparing for that sin reclear 
dusky vault
Follow-up; do we ever hold sepsis for shiv?
stoic needle
Shiv has a 25 second CD
faint harness
stoic needle
faint harness
it doesnt line up at all no
stoic needle
You don't hold either
faint harness
ER?
balmy condor
Follow-up; do we ever hold sepsis for shiv?
neigh
dusky vault
ty
balmy condor
nei?
faint harness
nej
dusky vault
nein?
balmy condor
faint harness
stoic needle
It's pretty cool that on sludgefist if you shiv on CD it lines up perfectly with every pillar because of the cast time of his abilities
If your first shiv comes in at ~10 sec
tawdry pawn
so we not using the ambush from multitate procs?
balmy condor
we only use ambush from blindside procs
balmy condor
you can cast from stealth and vanish and sepsis
stealth and vanish are no-no's
sepsis is a hard maybe
tawdry pawn
I see
is there any way to make it change my multitate for ambush when blindside procs?
like it does with ambush
I mean its changing the bar to stance 2 bar or sth like that
is there a way to do that for ambush procs aswell?
oblique flare
no
balmy condor
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
tawdry pawn
why jank?
balmy condor
cause it doesn't really change on stance
it just cycles between trying to cast mutilate and ambush
stoic needle
It ends up being slower than just doing it manually
oblique flare
why jank?
set yourself a WA for Blindside proc and bind the ambush to a key, this gnome sequencer work around is yikes
tawdry pawn
I see
stoic needle
Sin has like, 5 buttons, one extra is nbd
balmy condor
before vendetta
mossy sable
Ok cool
fleet whale
I'm curious to see how blizz iterates on flag when looking at the ptr notes
strange python
Do you really need a WA for blindside when you get big flashing shooting stars on your screen?
deft vault
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
limber swallow
I'm curious to see how blizz iterates on flag when looking at the ptr notes
the PTR version appears just as lazy as the original implementation. At least they're recognizing it's trash and redoing it.
tribal marlin
@balmy condor there is a problem with the apl for siming exsg 30sec burst dps :/
balmy condor
why
tribal marlin
well it does 3cp rupture, exsg like 10sec after last garrote etc...
and I have trouble adding pre-combat iqd
balmy condor
the rupture thing is fine
that's what it's supposed to do
I'm not sure if the garrote thing would change anything
plush basin
Hows sin performance in Mythic Raiding right now? Viable?
tribal marlin
how do I add pre combat trinkets ?
balmy condor
actions.precombat+=/x,precombat_seconds=x
balmy condor
Hows sin performance in Mythic Raiding right now? Viable?
it's about as good as sub
tribal marlin
ye I did it doesn't work with x=use_item
balmy condor
dunno then
outer lotus
Whats the exact line u put?
tribal marlin
actions.precombat+=/use_items,name=inscrutable_quantum_device,precombat_seconds=16
gleaming eagle
i still think
nf is the best for sin
shiv + sepsis is a good burst in pvp
and it combos well with one of our conduit
well placed steel
tribal marlin
sepsis is really good yes
I wonder if it scale off master yas well
or will
I don't think it does but I will check ptr just to be sure
(does not scale with mastery)
hallow spear
Denath ring/head is pretty much nothing better than them right?
balmy condor
correct
hallow spear
But 226 high haste shoulders > generals
hallow spear
Ah, alright. Ty
tribal marlin
you want to equip 233 items helm/shoulder/cloak especially
and find haste somewhere else
well for the shoulder anyway since helm and cloak have some
strange python
Can anyone look at my log and see wtf im doin wrong here. I feel like my burst is ass
balmy condor
seems reasonable to me
iron charm
Do we just go for max haste, cause sims dont seem to like it when im near 20% haste.
strange python
@balmy condor i switched from outlaw to sin to try and get a more reliable dmg output but it just seems like im doing something wrong
ember relic
do we use CT single target in m+?
iron charm
I get that we wanna have a good amount of evertthing
balmy condor
do we use CT single target in m+?
no
strange python
like i get nooooowhere near my sims
ember relic
That is the way
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> i switched from outlaw to sin to try and get a more relia...
doesn't look like it
strange python
yeah like i feel like im doing everything right my dmg just sucks lol
need r4 pants still but ugh
iron charm
Is wowanalyzer updated for us?
balmy condor
no
iron charm
😐
balmy condor
that's not corrupted
that's just how sin works
well
all rogue specs
shiv isn't tracked properly by the combat log
so take it up with blizzard
strange python
idk what im lookin at with that
lol
i've been pooling a bit before shiv is up
trying to get 3+ envenoms every time
tribal marlin
stupid website >.<
some envenom are scuffed too
nvm I found
For a arguable too long period of time, you never went below 100 energy
it's wierd
you should hit 0 energy during TB
at least
strange python
hmm maybe i was on orbs or something
I'll have to check what happened that pull
I get a little confused when adds come out during this fight. You guys focus on the big one and just dump on him or what?
tribal marlin
Well it doesn't matter
but choose one
You benefit from the execute anyway you don't loose or win any dps switching or not to the add as long as your dots / shiv debuff remain full duration
If you have 3 arms warrior I guess you'd better tunnel on boss but if you lack add damage then go add it's simple than that tbh
stoic needle
i think it's a gain if you focus the add when it enters execute because you'll get more dmg on IP procs during that period
i usually dot up the small add and tunnel the big one
tribal marlin
most of the time when a priority add spawn and take more than 15sec to die, you should switch your ST dps on it as an assa rogue.
Keep in mind that some class have trouble switching target
like Outlaw basically
tribal marlin
i think it's a gain if you focus the add when it enters execute because you'll g...
Nah man it's same. You'll get that execute on the boss sometime after anyway
well
it matter only if you are trying to push the boss into a like 40% phase transition, and you remove the last phase DPS from the picture
then ofc
you will have a better position dealing with the add and let non-execute target dealing with the boss damage
like idk Ashzara
stoic needle
I don't see how taking advantage of an extra execute phase by switching to an add wouldn't be a gain compared to just hitting the boss the whole time. As long as hitting the add doesn't stop you from hitting the boss during its own execute
I'm thinking about overall damage
tribal marlin
well
There are 100m hp to be removed from the boss and also from his minions.
You have 100% uptime on the buff "X deal 30% increase damage to target below 30%"
And every target will go from 100% to 0% anyway
you'll loose damage dealing with an add if it would have "despawn" at 40% health.
is it more clear this way maybe ?
balmy condor
"execute" includes instant poison procs, as well as blindside proc rates
if the boss is not in execute range
it is worth to switch to an add that is in execute range
tribal marlin
yes this way of course
stoic needle
Yeah I see what you're saying. I agree that if you can kill the boss before you'd kill the add it's probably better to stay on the boss
tribal marlin
It's more of : "you can kill this add at the correct timing even if you stay on boss"
tribal marlin
it is worth to switch to an add that is in execute range
well you need to estimate how long the add execute's is
for tb
tribal marlin
you can switch autos and poison but not press tb if the add dies within 2...3sec
good think we don't loose energy rupturing anyway
like Azshara is a good fight
the adds took forever to die
ok I got it : you need to switch target if it's in execute range (unless like wasting tb) but if you switch before it is in execute range, you don't loose anything
so that at the end, if the add would have not existed at all
it change nothing. Basically when you ahve such an execute you never "win" damage
you only loose when "missing" execute uptime
night cypress
Yo is there some way I can't see to get upgrades for conduits from dungeons
like past 200 outside of the venari thing
shy dust
200 ilvl + potency conduits only drop from venari
Outside of one potency for each spec that costs conquest to buy its ilvl scales with your rating
balmy condor
(That being said, potency ilvl is quite small of a gain)
night cypress
still, feels bad
night cypress
not heaps
strange python
about 1/100th of what you wish you could
trim zinc
any vendetta pvp trinket macro??
limber lion
Can anyone look at my log and see wtf im doin wrong here. I feel like my burst ...
I would personally save the trinket cast for when you vanish so it benefits from Master Assa.
I would also mutilate to 4-5 cp before vanishing to to have a chance to double-envenom in a master assa window. Doesn't matter much though, really minimal gain if at all.
But definitely save your trinket. Also have you simmed them in different order? I personally always see a gain in using dreadfire as the first trinket, could be different though if the ilvl of the trinket is awful, didn't check.
Also have you tried simming spectral agi potions? Fire potions are a bit hit or miss, especially if you're looking to get consistent results.
But I wouldn't worry too much about the burst. Assa's strong point is consistent damage throughout the whole fight and execute. I usually see myself going up the meters when the boss gets to execute range. Or rather don't fall as much as others on the meters.
I would look into using Subterfuge as your cooldowns line up perfectly with the second set of adds on the 2min mark.
night cypress
any vendetta pvp trinket macro??
do you just want to use your trinket when you vendetta?
because if so you can just
/cast vendetta
/use trinket name
dusky vault
or
/use 13
mighty bolt
@strange python just u using +12 ap sharpen stone, go for +20 ap sharpen stone
balmy condor
he's using 20