assassination

[hollow zephyr]

?

[oblique flare]

Talents:
3-3-1-0-0-2-1 - Single target
2-2-3-0-0-2-1 (2 with higher ranks in Poisoned Katar, 3 in more aoe heavy dungeons) - M+
2-2-2-0-0-2-3 - Sustained AoE

[hollow zephyr]

So first ones are for raids

[stoic needle]

No

[frozen jasper]

Anyone actually using deeper strat as talent ?

[stoic needle]

No one yet, we don't have the gear for it to be better than vigor yet iirc

[frozen jasper]

Makes sense, ty

[stoic needle]

Next tier maybe

[frozen jasper]

Just curious cause I just saw vigor and mfd until now and play vigor myself

Why is it recommended in sustained aoe now tho ?

Or am I dumb and confusing the rows lol

[unreal parcel]

@manic harness well what was the outcome of the 3x envenom discussion

[stoic needle]

It was probably whispyr they were talking to

[manic harness]

Oh yes, it was Whispyr

[stoic needle]

And yeah, 3x envenom isn't necessary during shiv, but you can also refresh garotte+rupture early if shiv is about to come off cd

[manic harness]

He said it wasn't ever the recommendation, but I distinctly remember always timing for 3x envenom and 4x during Corruption Haste era

[stoic needle]

well yeah

That's with 70% extra haste

[manic harness]

Lol yes

But nowadays it's just extremely difficult to line everything up consistently

but the discussion was, was the 3x Envenom EVER the rule?

I think it was, but he says he doesn't remember it

And we're not allowed to say the s word sooo

[tidal gorge]

WHAT YOU MEAN SCALING?

[stoic needle]

Well I just found this in the icy veins guide so

[strange python]

you could do like 3-4 with mfd

but that's pushing it lmao

[fleet whale]

if you are talking about how many envenoms you should get in your shiv windows, honestly it doesn't really matter

2 is good, even 1 is ok, 3 is very hard to get with these crit levels

[manic harness]

I FUCKING KNEW IT

[vast forum]

Eh, you can't get enough globals for 4 envs in a tb/shiv

[strange python]

Maybe if you have enough crit

you can FoK it.

but that sounds terrible so /shrug

[vast forum]

Also, who even played tb with haste corruption?

[manic harness]

When we had insanely inflated haste, with a couple lucky crits you could

[vast forum]

Haste doesn't reduce gcd for energy specs

[manic harness]

No, but you generated enough energy that it wasn't a constraint

[vast forum]

You always get 8 globals in tb and you ran deeper strat

So 4cps were a no-go

Also, once again, who even played tb with haste corruption?

It was exsg all the way

[manic harness]

Once people got comfortable with it, sure

[vast forum]

Still you couldn't fit 4 envs in there unless 100% crit without running deeper strat

Maybe you played mfd

[manic harness]

lol nah I didn't

I definitely remember 4x Envenom's happening irregularly though

[vast forum]

Then you're just remembering wrong

[manic harness]

No

[vast forum]

4 envs with crit corruption,maybe

With great luck

[manic harness]

That's possible

I did have a bunch of setups

[vast forum]

Haste was high enough on gear to have you global capped in tb if you start it with near full energy and env costs less than mut so if you crit more, you spend less energy

[wary ice]

3 without mfd is very easy in st

tbh

[native marten]

master assassin for pvp legendary yea?

[vast forum]

3 ye, 4 only with a lot of luck

[old snow]

master assassin or doomblade

[strange python]

Doomblade seems to do better in 3's, MA for 2's though.

[native marten]

mostly only in 2s and BGs for the time being waiting for friends alts to be ready for 3s

[strange python]

You wanna do Master Assassin then.

[vast forum]

Ma also works for all specs

If u wanna play the good pvp spec

[strange python]

Assassination?

It's coming back baby! :D

[native marten]

im banking on assassination becoming best rogue spec all around come 9.1

[vast forum]

It's already decent but sub is still a bit better

[strange python]

I don't it to be the best.

I want it to be good enough.

It doesn't feel good to play the spec at the back of the pack.

[old snow]

its def good enough id say, its not the best spec for sure but it can get the job done

[stoic needle]

It's got a long way to go if it's going to be better than outlaw

[strange python]

They just gave Outlaw a lot this tier.

We didn’t get anything.

[stoic needle]

The problem is that whatever we get that benefits sin will probably benefit outlaw too unless it's spec specific

It's possible but I'm not counting on it

[strange python]

Sin specific legendary!

[livid temple]

What do you mean sin will be bis come 9.1 I have faith that sub will get some love! The sub will rise again!

[strange python]

Although, Zoldyck is fine really.

I want sub to be that rogue you have to bring into raid.

Let sub be that omega slapper.

[empty cradle]

Every spec just lives or dies now on whatever busted borrowed power you’re offered

And outlaw won so far

[strange python]

Fire mage is a great example.

[empty cradle]

Blaster master and shifting

[strange python]

Perhaps because something is wrong with the class itself.

[empty cradle]

Nah can’t possibly be that blizzard releases bare bones specs and borrowed power stitches together the play style

[strange python]

They’re gonna have to do something.

It’s been like this for many expansions now.

Fire Mage and ranged specs top the charts in everything.

[empty cradle]

The unpruning didn’t even do much since they just cherry picked what returned

[strange python]

What’s the point of bringing melee?

outside of UH DK?

[empty cradle]

Making your fights harder

[strange python]

lmfao

[stoic needle]

I hope they make some genuinely ranged unfriendly raids

[empty cradle]

Think about it

If I beat sire mythic with 10 melee dps

[stoic needle]

Like I want fights where you cast and attack 50% slower when you're farther than 10 yards from the boss

[empty cradle]

I’m better than limit and all other top 10 guilds

Cuz they couldn’t do it

[stoic needle]

Like halkias

[empty cradle]

I don’t even feel like ranged is punished by not casting cause every spec has a good move and dps buttons now

Their casts are honestly mostly filler spells now

[livid temple]

I think that's the main issue for trying to optimize a raid comp , it isn't why bring melee over range, it's why bring any other melee than a UH DK, wouldn't be surprised if their utility recieved a nerf in 9.1 they def need to do some adjusting

[surreal hawk]

Yo btw guys what do u think of running the sepsis conduit + toxic blade conduit for sludge

[tribal marlin]

once you know timing you can predict movement and just plan ahead

so yes, caster don't really loose that much moving

[surreal hawk]

i just killed sludge mythic with it and it seems much stronger than going zoldyks + poison conduit

[empty cradle]

Isn’t burrs more damage?

[surreal hawk]

no

i tried it

its not even close

[stoic needle]

I'm pretty sure it is

[empty cradle]

Or I guess maybe if every sepsis lines with pillars

[tribal marlin]

problem with sepsis + Sludge is the 1:30 cd

[empty cradle]

It’d probably truck

[tribal marlin]

sucks on that boss

[stoic needle]

You should be using well placed steel regardless

[empty cradle]

But I don’t think it would cause 90 s like Mikihisa said

[surreal hawk]

i mean i died on sludge but i could easily get 6.5k dps

[stoic needle]

So I'm not sure what the comparison is

[empty cradle]

He was

[stoic needle]

Septic vs lethal poisons?

[empty cradle]

He called it toxic blade

[stoic needle]

You mentioned zoldyck

[surreal hawk]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hrYvQA2VGTHn7a3y#fight=11&type=damage-done

here is a 1% wipe

its really good

[tribal marlin]

there is a guy parsing around he play MFD NS MA

can be good for sludge maybe

[strange python]

NS?

Nightstalker?

[tribal marlin]

ye

[strange python]

ew

[surreal hawk]

if NS would work on sepsis

[tribal marlin]

it's a chineese guy wait

[stoic needle]

Yeah I highly doubt that getting septic shock bonus on sepsis during one or two of the vulns is better than burrs

[surreal hawk]

burrs is like 5% dmg is it not =?

[tribal marlin]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/cn/克尔苏加德/gumì

that guy

[stoic needle]

Yeah, and sepsis is 3%

[tribal marlin]

he most of the time play his wierd build

[surreal hawk]

wait

[tribal marlin]

but I don't believe it's that good

[surreal hawk]

sepsis was 8% of my dmg

7.86% to be accurate

[stoic needle]

Well sepsis 3% normally + burrs 5%

Is 8%

Lol

[surreal hawk]

burrs is also very random

sepsis is consistant

[stoic needle]

It consistently doesn't line up with the burst windows

[surreal hawk]

u delay it ofc

[stoic needle]

But if you get burrs procs every pillar which isn't impossible

Delaying sepsis is a dps loss

[surreal hawk]

use on pull delay for all 2 min pillars afterwards

[tribal marlin]

nah I think it's a good idea tbh

but you should go all in on vuln and play NS MFD MA

[stoic needle]

I think it's a decent idea I just don't think it will be better

[surreal hawk]

i also ran master assassin

together with shriek wing trinket

which is also op

40k dmg on pillars

[stoic needle]

Ma legendary? Or the talent

[surreal hawk]

leggo

[tribal marlin]

leggo

MA + NS is giga damage

[surreal hawk]

i sadly died on the kill

[tribal marlin]

always has been, was my plan at the begining

[surreal hawk]

so my dps is kinda fucked but i think the build has alot od dmg potential on sludge

[stoic needle]

I don't like the shriekwing trinket on sludge it's scary when you're chained

[surreal hawk]

ive never ever broken on sludge mythic

with the trinket

[stoic needle]

I haven't either but it's the other person I'm worried about

[surreal hawk]

lol

[stoic needle]

What if they do something dumb when I use it

[surreal hawk]

they should be soaking

so they will be close to the boss

100%

[stoic needle]

I'm traumatized from this week

50 wipes on H sludge pugging

Anything that can go wrong, has

[surreal hawk]

yeah this build is mostly for mythic progress

since u need 4 pillars

[gusty mirage]

ew

[surreal hawk]

for good dmg

[gusty mirage]

@stoic needle why do you hate yourself pugging heroic sludge?

[tribal marlin]

imo sub still is best on that boss

[stoic needle]

I just want a chain man

And aotc

[gusty mirage]

I got one from the weekly

and I was so ecstatic

[surreal hawk]

i kinda hate playing sub so thats why i went with ass... and personally ass rogue felt very strong

[stoic needle]

DUDE I GOT A MOTHERFUCKING MACABRE SHEET MUSIC

[gusty mirage]

LOL that was my first one

[stoic needle]

This game will not stop trolling me

[gusty mirage]

I seem to only get trinkets from that weekly, which is fine I guess

cause the trinkets are really the best raid loot tbh

[stoic needle]

Pray for me I get my first +14 vault box Tuesday

[tribal marlin]

Darkvein and Sire are 2 very good assa encounter

[stoic needle]

Huntsman is good too

[tribal marlin]

others, idk i think it's viable but sub best

[stoic needle]

And hungering

[surreal hawk]

sludge is good :>

[stoic needle]

Any boss where you have to run away a lot is going to be good for sin

[tribal marlin]

Huntsman isn't really an encounter, it's more like a big trash mob :3

[gusty mirage]

huntsman is a cluster fuck tbh

I hate that fight so much

idk if I've survived one kill yet

just sinseeking my way to hell

[tribal marlin]

but no worrie, more Assa encounter will be made

[stoic needle]

Do you still die to sinseeker even with elusiveness feint?

Or cheat death?

On mythic

[tribal marlin]

As long as execute will be strong and Blizz keep doing boss which transition over HP %

[gusty mirage]

someone's always out of position for the immune soak

[tribal marlin]

Assa will be good.

[gusty mirage]

so I lose cheat really quick lmao

2nd one comes up on me

and I'm like nice guys, kill this for me

[stoic needle]

Elusiveness is bae

[gusty mirage]

I'm switching holy pally cause our hpal had to quit raiding, it was nice knowing ya boys 😦

[stoic needle]

Nooooo

[stone epoch]

you'll always be a rogue in our hearts

[gusty mirage]

healing's easier though, I can keep up to date on my streaming shows

"can I be tank healer pls?" crusader strike + crusader strike + judgment -> wog

for 7 minutes

I just hit 1800 too on my rogue and got 220 weapons

[fleet whale]

as a holy pally you have to dps at times though

[livid temple]

Holy Pally with Ashen hallow does more damage that a lot of dps specs, but it's fine though

[slow marsh]

Can someone explain how i'm getting a 20% increased cap to energy as gnome rogue. I have 178 total. Either my resource display is just bugged (which I dont think it is because my energy usage matches up with the display) or the expansive mind racial is bugged.

Even with vigor I should only have 158 energy, not 178

[spice spire]

Phials only

[stoic needle]

you should have 170

you get 120 at lvl 60, and then vigor gives 50 more

i think sin has 20 extra energy by default

[slow marsh]

Ooooo ok. Yeah I didn't realize that and wasn't seeing it anywhere. I'm glad i'm not crazy. Thinking about race changing so I'm covering all my bases

[stoic needle]

yeah it's not listed in any of the spec passives, but i just changed to each spec and they only have 100 energy by default

[slow marsh]

I knew the other ones defaulted to 100 I just didn't know Sin got a free boost. Thanks!

[low girder]

it used to be!

[median mango]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[misty holly]

This game has gone through some serious mudflation in the energy department. Didn't vigor used give only +10 energy. You had 110 energy and liked it!

[stable moss]

would you guys run well placed steel and septic shock or WPS and lethal poison as double potency

[balmy condor]

wps lethal

[stable moss]

was thinking of putting it in my dreamweaver tree since i play niya for sub for raid and pvp and outlaw in my korayn

[deft vault]

@balmy condor how does the input for simming food/pot works?

says to copy it under my simc but when i do that it says invalid output

[balmy condor]

you take your simc input, put it in an advanced sim, then take the pastebin and put that underneath

[deft vault]

oohhhh its in advanced sim

i was in topgear lmao

[balmy condor]

yeah you can't run custom code in top gear

[oblique flare]

but doesn't burrs sim better than lethal poisons :0 ?

[balmy condor]

he said he plays sub niya

[oblique flare]

oh

dreamweaver haste sounds nice, too bad too much crap screws with melees :p

[faint harness]

rarely any fight that forces you to run around like a maniac in the first 15 seconds

[frail fossil]

xymox is u're very unlucky u can get portal + ghosts on the first spawns

[fiery mauve]

are yall kicking outlaw ass yet

in m+

[balmy condor]

lmao no

[strange python]

no way we can

lmfao

[fiery mauve]

guess i have to get outlaw weps to start ksm

[strange python]

you can do it as assassination

you're just not going to do massive damage every 30-40 seconds.

[fiery mauve]

nope its alright i have to use conquest somewhere

[stoic needle]

you can do ksm as sin

many people have

[frail fossil]

look at peen the god

[balmy condor]

sooooooooooon

[frail fossil]

SO CLOSE

[copper lotus]

do you oil both daggers or just one

or sharpening

[stoic needle]

plaguefall

double sharpening because i dont have time to waste on stupid phantom fire RNG

idk when this season ends but I'm gonna try to get ksm

[dusky vault]

Probably at least another 6 weeks for this season but probably like 3 months lol

[stoic needle]

oh i'll definitely get it then

[fiery mauve]

sure but i have no preference in outlaw or sin

so ill play outlaw for it

[dusky vault]

Yeah outlaw is much easier in keys imo

Just flurry and go brr

Sin you have to maintain dots which requires much more effort

[copper lotus]

i disagree

[strange python]

we gonna start this discussion again huh

[dusky vault]

woops; didnt mean to start something lmao

[strange python]

not you

lol

[fiery mauve]

uh oh

[strange python]

Saying Outlaw is hard to play is like saying Fire Mage is hard to play

because you have to be "tactile" with your cooldowns.

:)

[fiery mauve]

what cooldowns

[strange python]

CDs that are up every 40-60 seconds.

Exactly.

[dusky vault]

what tactics; I just press it when they light up

[strange python]

ikr

[rigid mauve]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[hardy berry]

I heard on the main forums sin was getting another 5%, is that tuesday?

[balmy condor]

that was last reset

[alpine oasis]

what is a nice plater set just started using the mod?

[balmy condor]

https://wago.io/t6bI_B9wi

these are mine

[alpine oasis]

i did like the look of yours

thanks

[balmy condor]

np

[dusky vault]

whispyr can you whisper me your ui plater layout; I want to see how it looks too

[split veldt]

what do you think boiz, my Sin is almost there, im feelin' like i can switch soon

[strange python]

clap em b

[stoic needle]

Not to nit-pick but it would be less close if you used gs instead of qd

But they don't need to know that

[strange python]

gs > qd?

[stoic needle]

Yes

[strange python]

acronyms homie

brain no work

eggsplain pls

[stoic needle]

Ghostly strike and quick draw

[strange python]

ah

that's outlaw stuff

no wonder lmfao

[split veldt]

i fucking hate outlaw

roll the bones is the gayest shit

[strange python]

Roll the bones is happy?

i hate fotm players

who inflate classes

I'm confused, are you suggesting that OL is fotm? or just in general

general

the classes that perform are the classes that are played.

yes and no

sometimes an under repped spec is under repped BECAUSE it CAN'T perform

sometimes it's perfromance is underblown DUE to under rep

but they aren't necessarily linked

[split veldt]

yeah, Sin was actually pretty booty cheeks, made me sad after like 3 expansions maining it

[safe totem]

Outlaw

[stoic needle]

utlaw

[split veldt]

i wouldnt mind outlaw if it wasnt for roll the bones, i hate the RNG even with conduits

[strange python]

Please don't be playing assassin and insinuate that OL is braindead >.> that's actually cringe

[stoic needle]

Outlaw just has too much rng for my tastes

[strange python]

assassin is a very easy spec

very fun

[stoic needle]

I like consistency

[strange python]

but VERY easy

uh huh

We gonna go to this discussion again

[split veldt]

so many bosses this tier that make me wish i was Sin with dots and bleeds rolling during mechanics

[stoic needle]

The best leggo is % chance for mini AR. Rtb is rng. Cto is rng

[strange python]

me too

[safe totem]

Please don't be playing assassin and insinuate that OL is braindead >.> that's actually cringe
@strange python my man u need to work on that profile picture that shit is hella sus

[strange python]

LMFAO

hey man

lskdfhj kl;fg hdfskg

this is my nioh 2 character

and he's fucking glorious

[stoic needle]

Don't be mad you aren't as beautiful as squidward

[strange python]

I dunno if this is bait or not.

[stoic needle]

If guile charm were the top outlaw legendary I'd be kinda into that

[safe totem]

Yeeyee ass haircut

[balmy condor]

fun police here making sure we're on topic and having fun

[strange python]

I more just wish sin was in a better spot to be able to cleave execute to a higher degree in CN

that would be great

[stoic needle]

Why in gods name did they nerf guile charm from 30% to 10%

[balmy condor]

[stoic needle]

you'll never take me alive janny

[balmy condor]

the fuck you call me

[stoic needle]

JANNIE

[safe totem]

:ASpolice:
@balmy condor

[strange python]

I was playing sin this week in mythic raid, damn sight better on hunts than sub, and it was actually surprisingly good having dps on the boss off target on things like hungering and shriek

but it wasn't like revolutionary at all

just doing the same thing with a different flavour mostly

[balmy condor]

[strange python]

fun though

[balmy condor]

not sure if just misheard my name or reference I don't get

[strange python]

I think the best thing about the switch to sin for mythic though was just the fact that it was so fkn chill

[balmy condor]

yeh

[strange python]

especially after playing OL so much

[balmy condor]

if you min-max the other specs, you can still outperform

[strange python]

so much chill was experienced

[balmy condor]

sin is competitive, but it's definitely worse

[strange python]

it's so awkward

CN SEEMS like it SHOULD be great for sin

sin low damage

also you lose cp becuase of snd poggers

[hardy berry]

Just started messing with a Sin build today. Pretty close to my sub using master assassin. Can’t decide if I should make 235 finality for Sub or Zol for Sin on Tuesday

[strange python]

your damage is OKAAAAAAYYYYYY
but the profile of the fights don't necessarily line up for you the way you can really abuse

[balmy condor]

wouldn't really say casting your highest damage finisher is equal to "losing cp"

but I guess that's just me

[strange python]

im well aware

i'm meming

and SLG mythic is just a fucking meme of a fight

but the finisher feels awful to hit.

that shits straight up a "go OL or just feel like deadweight" fight

after progging on nzoth I thought nothing would be more unfun

but here comes SLG like "bruh... hold ALL my beers"

[stoic needle]

Fun police = moderator = janny

[stoic needle]

It's cuz our dots just don't do enough damage

[strange python]

pretty much yeah

[stoic needle]

Well bleeds specifically

Deadly and instant poison are fine

[strange python]

I'm keen to see how this will play out over the xpac, especially with our secondaries being limited by DR somewhat

I'd rather see the dots be the large large majority of our output

[stoic needle]

The more that I think about it the more I like the idea of us dropping blindside for EP even if blindside does feel really good

[rancid spade]

it is possible to use mut/ambush with blindside?

[strange python]

do you mean on one button?

[stoic needle]

Getting those bits of EP uptime by refreshing SND off boss or switching targets will increase our dot damage a bit

[strange python]

I honestly think they're legitmiately just scared of how damage starts to get out of control on cleave with dots

[stoic needle]

Wtf is affliction then

[strange python]

weird though that they only seem to fucking care about this when it comes to melee though

[stoic needle]

I would have absolutely zero problems with being the melee aff

[strange python]

it's exactly what we should be

it was feral that just used dots to empower their raw damage

rogues actually did damage THROUGH dots

apparently that's worrying though

leave that to the range

though... to be fair

the largest part of affi now is maleific w/ethefuckitscalled

which is technically direct damage as well

but w/e

[stoic needle]

I would love a mechanic where the dots get empowered every time they are pandemic refreshed

Let it stack a few times to enforce the ramp

[strange python]

they don't like things taht reinforce TOO much skill gap

thats' why they all but completely removed snapshotting

[stoic needle]

By the end of a boss your garotte and rupture are doing +75% extra dmg during execute

Such a shame imo

[strange python]

yeah, not saying you're wrong at all

it's weird when they bring up the skill gap dealio

they try hard to avoid things that swing favour in skill too far

and do things like "melee is a really big deal"

[stoic needle]

What is wrong with skill

[strange python]

Give Garrote and rupture an agony type effect.

but the same people who struggled with snapshotting struggle with just straight up melee uptime

so...

[stoic needle]

Why not reward good players for being good

[strange python]

they still suck

seems like the specs that are the easiest to play are also the best

it just shifts WHERE the skill gap shows

doesn't actually diminish it

[stoic needle]

If I perfectly pandemic refresh every dot an entire boss encounter I deserve a reward for that

[strange python]

I wouldn't go that far

sin is a very simple rogue spec

mm is not nearly as simple as bm

pretty arguably either way between frost and unh

[stoic needle]

It's still pretty simple

I wish they would bring back hunter melee weaving

[strange python]

I mean to say just blanket stating "easier specs are the best" is pretty easily contested

[stoic needle]

That shit was badass

That's what survival could have been

Going between melee and ranged every few seconds

Aimed shot and raptor strike

[strange python]

BM should have been the melee spec, I have a gigantic rant all wound up and ready to unleash about that

but this isn't the hunter disc

[stoic needle]

Hahaha

i just feel like no one wins when they dumb the game down

as long as they leave several easy to play specs in the game

[strange python]

well the obvious assumption is that the casual player base wins

and that's VERY important to the company because they're the largest part of the playerbase

[stoic needle]

i feel like its possible to make specs with a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling

[strange python]

I think though that a lot of higher end players would argue that exactly, all it does is lower the skill floor

the ceiling doesn't really move

just makes it less obvious that it's as high as it is

[stoic needle]

I don't see how removing things like snapshotting doesn't lower the skill cieling

[strange python]

well...

mop was a bit of a minefield

there was a VERY large skill gap there

VERY LARGE

when you had locks like spark running a prog raid naked doing more damage than the rest of the playerbase because of perfect trinket usage...

skill + snapshotting does become an issue

they did need to do something about it

was what they did the perfect option? probably not, but it is what it is

most of the higher end guys don't REALLY care that much about how they try to dumb things down, in the end their skillset still shines through regardless

it just moves around as to HOW

it's just sort of a see saw of complexity : fun

[stoic needle]

i guess I miss snapshotting because it added more interactivity and decision making into a rotation and how you played a class. they removed that, but also didn't add much new things into the specs to compensate to keep that type of thing going

[strange python]

exactly, so for you, there was an added amount of that fun ratio in more complexity

most of the higher end guys would say the same

but, most of the higher end guys would also be a much smaller part of the overall playerbase

and in the end, it's still a business

so they balance how they see the metrics moving

[stoic needle]

yeah, i get that. in the end i dont think they necessarily need to add snapshotting back to the game, but I would like to see more conditional interactions added to specs. If x condition is met, get y bonus effect. that is just good game design imo

[strange python]

I wish the same, I love the complex dot gameplay in specs like sin and affi when it can really get going

I'm really keen to see how/if DR is going to impact us in any way that tapers our dots off later in the xpac

kinda just hoping I don't feel like quitting before then tbh

I wished when they did things like add snd back it would have more interactivity too, at least more than "maintain x, get more energy"

[dusky vault]

idk after seeing how trash 90% of pugs play adding more complexity would make it them even worse

[strange python]

kinda depends on what we consider complexity

but for the most part I'd agree

[rancid spade]

what bind are you using for ambush?

its like a proc/execute now

[strange python]

a different one to my mutilate

[rancid spade]

i had 1garrote 2mut 3 envenom idk where to put ambush

[strange python]

wherever is best for you my man

people all have wildly different bindings

[dusky vault]

my ambush is on C but that's just because I have no other long cd's on Sin vs sub or outlaw

[strange python]

my kick is on 2

[plain thistle]

my ambush is mouse wheel up 🙂

[strange python]

others will read that like WHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATT!?!??!?!?!

[dusky vault]

yeah pretty much lol

[plain thistle]

and cheap shot is mouse wheel down

[dusky vault]

my kick is on E

[strange python]

lol my mousewheel is WAY to sensitive to put cheapshot on

[plain thistle]

yeah, but we have gcd, you cant spam cheap shot

[strange python]

I'd constantly "accidentally" use CS because I moved my mouse quickly by picking it up

*puts mouse down
*cheapshots boss
*doesn't get BTE up
*uses skulkers
"FUCKING FUCK FUCKING FUCKING MOUSE FUCKING TRINKET HOLY SHIT"

[plain thistle]

hmmm, why are you putting your mouse away 🤔

[strange python]

Old school fps player from 1.4/5 days in CS

so the super low sensitivity pick up is well ingrained into me

[rancid spade]

now ambush is 3rd most used

[stoic needle]

actually it's 4th because of waiting

[strange python]

waiting?

[balmy condor]

Waiting

[strange python]

I might have missed something ni my short absence but I was under the impression that just due to energy/cp ratios abush at this stage was just a straight up "break glass in case of proc" skill

[balmy condor]

It is

[strange python]

OH LOL

waiting

hahahahahaha

in my brain I just immediately reverted to thinking you MEANT "weighting"

I was way confused

[tacit forum]

Is it just me or Burrs dmg is quite low?

[strange python]

Yeah it's pretty low if you never push skills

[tacit forum]

On dummy full rotation

2.6% dmg

[strange python]

if you're pushing skills it's crazy good

2.6% sounds like either really bad procs, or you were somehow moving the dummy out of them

but

even 2.6% of your overall is basically a "free trinket"

so I still wouldn't complain

[tacit forum]

yeah idk, maybe I was expecting too much

[strange python]

it should do more, on average at least

[fallow otter]

I hit a dummy for a while as outlaw and got 4%, I've heard good luck can double that

[strange python]

it could be rng

but yeah typically in raid I see it around the 4-5%

[stoic needle]

yeah mine is usually around 5%

[main forge]

I think I saw it as low as 3.5% and as high as almost 7%(pretty sure that was sludgefist procs)

[stoic needle]

i had 7% on huntsman before they nerfed it to be true single target 😦

[strange python]

just tell the tanks to stack them tighter 😛

[iron charm]

So should i never use ambush in my opener? And is it only cause mutilate gives 2 chances?

[tribal marlin]

You should use Mutilate in stealth because it give more CP and have double chance to proc poison

but in fact, it doesn't really matter

[iron charm]

Okay thank you. Does ppl use master assas leggo for m+ or is everyone running zorlyk

[strange python]

it's pretty easy to just "use ambush only if you have proc"

Zoldyck

MA isn't bad but it's not optimal

just revert to mut for anything else

[iron charm]

You mean if im running blindside yes?

[tribal marlin]

if you don't have blindside you can just remove the spell from your action bar tbh 😄

[iron charm]

Got it. Any fight in the raid where we dont run poison bomb, and instead use CT?

[tribal marlin]

no

maybe later we'll use CT for more execute damage

but for now nop

[iron charm]

Alright thx for the help 🙂

[gaunt wasp]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[stoic needle]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vxxe9kwVww1DfipZGXruL3 deadly poison and envenom over melee now

also no more skulkers my prayers have been answered

does anyone else get the same drops from raid over and over? i got N heraldry, now H heraldry, N skulkers and H skulkers twice, sheet music a couple times, shriekwing cloak

but like no other drops

[strange python]

mate

fuck skulkers

that thing fails for me so much

and it's nothing at all to do with the hitbox thing either

it's just wonky sometimes

but also...

nice

[nocturne hawk]

I've had it turn me around before... yeah fuck that thing

[strange python]

that trinket is actuallly out to kill you

actively TRYING to kill you

it's just an ongoing boss mechanic

[nocturne hawk]

hardmode trink lol

[stoic needle]

they need to rename the effect the "skulking dumbass" instead of skulking predator because thats what it turns you into

[clever stream]

lucky i hate the thing but havent had any luck getting anything else

[stoic needle]

may you all be freed from the curse of the skulker soon

[clever stream]

thank you kind sir or madam

[limber lion]

https://gyazo.com/08d99da711a0a13acb4b8161e8e0ba42
+17 Mists. Assa feels pretty good in m+ boys.

Haven't played much at all for like 2 weeks because of PoE's new league and I come back to this madness.

[hardy berry]

Which legendary do you use?

[limber lion]

Zoldyck's

[balmy condor]

[tribal marlin]

Assa was already "close" to outlaw in aoe sims ebfore they even buff it

[deft vault]

Anyone using flyplatebuffs?

[balmy condor]

I’ve never even heard of it tbh

[lofty yarrow]

What was your DPS in overall compared to the hunter ?

[balmy condor]

That screenshot literally shows the overall

[lofty yarrow]

Looking delicious !

[limber lion]

Yeah both at 220 ilvl as well. Pretty spicy indeed.

[lofty yarrow]

Did anyone change from outlaw to assassination recently ?
I’ve been playing outlaw this all expansion but the performance is really yukky compared to boomkins/hunters/mages in raids and mythic+.
Don’t wanna spend soul ashes on max legendary for assassination for nothing at the end :’(

[balmy condor]

Outlaw is better than sin

Not sure about going from outlaw to sin

Usually it’s the other way around

[lofty shell]

idk i can compete with hunters and mages with outlaw in m+

[limber lion]

Yeah. The dps margin between the two specs is a lot smaller so if you enjoy playing Assa more, it's not as punishing to switch. If you only care about dps, just stay Outlaw

[lofty shell]

depends on the dung but usually its pretty close

[balmy condor]

That’s normal

[limber lion]

Outlaw is awful when compared to Fire mages and hunters if the tank does big pulls

Outlaw is hard aoe capped at 5 targets.

[balmy condor]

It’s just not eas

Easy

[lofty shell]

yea it's not doing huge aoe pulls tho

[limber lion]

Even if you press all buttons perfectly, you'll never compete against a fire mage on a 10 mob pull

Kinda dumb that they're not aoe capped but something like the Outlaw is

[lofty shell]

well i just checked MDI and outlaw rogue beat firemage on a huge pull (he did use the wep in NW tho )

[limber lion]

If your tank pulls 5 mobs at a time, it should be fine. But yeah, #outlaw for the big pirate boys :'')

[lofty shell]

topped like 150k dps

[iron orchid]

MA leggo in NW is such a joke regardless of spec

[limber lion]

Yeah and they run Master Assa + Killing Spree nowadays anyways, so they just take all spears and oneshot the packs with MA.

But yeah, assa is pretty Poggers. Don't invest in it if you're not sure, but give it a shot.

[keen spruce]

still free CN parses for assa kek

[limber lion]

I have a 190 celerity, 190 master assa, 235 finality and 225 Zoldycks. You should be able to multi-spec quite well at this point of the expansion if you've done your Torghast's

[keen spruce]

i have 2 MAs x_x

[limber lion]

I wouldn't call them free because there's the true tryhard assa players who never switched.

[balmy condor]

Yeah I’m 190/190/235/235

[keen spruce]

cuz i ahve the dumb

[balmy condor]

235 MA next on my list

[limber lion]

Also a rank 3 parse on heroic Sire is literally a 97 parse.

Whereas top 100 parses are 99's for Sub/Outlaw

Yeah, gonna do Zoldy 235 and Master Assa after as well.

[iron orchid]

235 MA is really useful for pvp or just running NW

[lament dove]

I'm torn betweeen 2 MAs as well, I'm necro and want to try out MA with gemstone for m+, but now I'm not sure if I should level my 190 crit/vers MA to 235 next reset (made it for sub at the beginning) or make a new 225 with crit/haste :\

[limber lion]

I wouldn't make 2 of the same legendary, but you do you

[lofty yarrow]

Take a look at this guys

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/26#metric=dps&dataset=95&class=DPS&sample=1

Assassination is slowly beating outlaw ? XD

[limber lion]

That's only because the pool is so small. There's literally 51 parses.

If you increase the timeline from a single day to a week you'll see a better graph with more accurate results. :--)

But yeah, we can always dream.

[lofty yarrow]

Ofc but the point is , people are still practicing min-maxing as assa + most of em doesnt have the ideal gear for it

So that’s why i keep tracking day by day

[limber lion]

I wish Blizzard would stop being lazy when it comes to buffing/nerfing specs. Instead of doing flat % increases they should look at the specs and their abilities/talents more individually.

[lofty yarrow]

At this point atleast , giving it 1-2 more weeks of daily tracks

I would be very happy if they nerfed boomies/hunters and mages 😂😂

[limber lion]

I don't agree with nerfing good specs. Rather should buff the bad specs more.

Just giving all of the bottom specs 3 or 5% increase is so lazy of Blizzard

Spec can feel awful even if it does good dps.

[lofty yarrow]

We having hard time finding a raid spot in a decent guild, and that’s so reasonable imo.
If i’m a guild competing 10/10 mythic CN i would fill all DPS spots with boomies/hunters/mages.
Rogue as a class doesn’t give anything valuable for the raid and the DPS ain’t comparable to the 3 classes i mentioned above

[limber lion]

Looking at the daily rankings also gives more accurate presentation on Wednesday's/Thursday's when most of the guilds are raiding.

[lofty yarrow]

Agreed but keep in mind that min maxers are mostly playing outlaw now

[limber lion]

Yeah but nerfing specs makes the specs feel awful for the players that play them. It's much better to buff the bad specs and make all/most specs feel like fun to play.

[lament dove]

it's pretty funny that like half of the population is playing boomkin and MM though...

[limber lion]

People gravitate toward the good specs. That's just natural.

[lofty yarrow]

I just can’t re-roll,
I played rogue since vanilla .. never played any other class so re-rolling to hunter/boomkin aint an option for me personally

[limber lion]

I reckon that people who play without details or any other DPS meter, don't mind it as much. As long as you live in ignorance, you'll be fine. Ignorance is bliss, like they say. :'')

Yeah, I only play Rogue as well.

As long as you're in a guild that lets you play what you want, then that's good. And guilds which are not competing for hall of fame should be like that.

[lofty yarrow]

Yes brother, but not topping meters although min maxing every single thing due to class knowledge accumulated through all expansions just feels “bad”

But yea ur right , i’ll delete my damage meters 😂😂

[limber lion]

That's just the nature of the game. I minmax everything and simulate my character every day.

That's just a cold hard fact that you have to approve.

[lament dove]

my guild is just like that, but even here no more rogues in the mythic raiding team (I don't raid for some time because of other reasons)... our last raiding rogue rerolled to hunter, the other one doesn't really play anymore, etc.:(

[lofty yarrow]

So hard to swallow that

[limber lion]

I might be top 10 assa in the world and still get beaten by a top 1000 fire mage in dps.

[lofty yarrow]

So daaamn hard ceverion 😦

[limber lion]

But that's just the nature of it.

[lofty yarrow]

Yeah but that feels bad , doesn’t it ? xD

[limber lion]

I don't like comparing myself to other specs. I'd rather compare myself to people who are playing my class/spec.

As long as I'm doing the best that I can as my spec, that's good enough for me.

Sure it feels awful when in m+ a Boomkin does 40k+ dps on a pack and your barely scraping 9k.

But I truly believe that Blizzard are actively trying to lessen the gaps between specs.

[lofty yarrow]

Another factor to be counted is that you can’t compare yourself even with same spec if you are not in the same guild, i mean you can’t parse high if you kill a boss in 5 minutes and other on logs killing it in 3.5mins

[limber lion]

And all specs have their strengths and weaknesses.

[echo cargo]

i don't think it's possible to balance some of the differences when baseline covenant abilities are vastly different

[lofty yarrow]

And you can’t find another decent guild because you are simply .... a rogue

[echo cargo]

unless they just do reworks

[limber lion]

Big true and Blizzard messed it up on that department for sure. Convoke and Spirits are 100 times better than Sepsis.

[echo cargo]

basically my point^ 😛

[limber lion]

But Blizzard knows about it for sure and I truly think they will balance around it come 9.1

They can't do major nerfs/balances now that the tier is still on going.

[echo cargo]

Why don't they just make Sepsis detonate in an AoE 🤔 - it even uses the word detonate

[lofty yarrow]

Hahaha

[limber lion]

Sepsis is pretty PogChamp with the Torghast abilities.

[lofty yarrow]

When do you think 9.1 will be ?

[limber lion]

Spreading to 3 targets and then dealing % damage when they die.

That would make Sepsis huge

[echo cargo]

Exactly, Sepsis in Torghast is awesome, Sepsis in raid is laughable

[limber lion]

But still dogshit in ST

[stoic needle]

whoever said that blindside ambushes don't apply the rupturing spike power in torghast, they definitely do

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[dull path]

!stats

[vital pulsar]

How’s ass after buffs?

[rich yew]

Great

If you like the assa playstyle

Been playing it now since the buff with zoldyck and it really does solid dmg in m+

Did some arena's for fun and that's also fun change of pace from sub

[wide bolt]

Id say competitive with sub but outlaw will still do more dmg then both just looking at WCL on heroic

but idk ive never played outlaw seriously in raid so im just going off WCL's heroic stats from the past week

[alpine garden]

I looked up a guide for outlaw after getting a 194 WQ weap but it just seems pretty dull

[drifting cosmos]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[rough grove]

Can't decide between Vigor and Marked for Death for M+ hmmmm. MfD sims higher, albeit by around 50 DPS :/

[balmy condor]

both are fine

I run mfd

vigor is a little easier to use, and provides just some consistency

[tender owl]

how is necro for assass cov in pvp?

[balmy condor]

in specifically pvp, pretty trash

you would basically only get fleshcraft out of it

[tender owl]

ok thankyou

[old snow]

its def worse then nf and kyrian, but its not comepletly trash, if you go with doomblade playstyle you get another bleed

[balmy condor]

it doesn't stack I'm pretty sure

[old snow]

so doomblade doesnt benefit from serated spike bleed?

[balmy condor]

I don't think so

[old snow]

makes sense with them trying to make convenats not synergize to much with class kits

[balmy condor]

covenant/spec interactions are VERY minimal

[tender fjord]

Fleshcraft is quite nice. Also gives you 17k shield if used on a players corpse. Which is quite nice in RBG’s. In arena it just confirms a win. Serrated bone spike is a budget Marked for Death at very low energy cost. No cheesy uses for it tho

At least, the above is my personal experience

[drifting cosmos]

whats the opener with mfd in m+?

mfd - cp - gg then back to normal?

[balmy condor]

g1 g2 g3 g4 CT mfd rup

or you could mfd snd pre-pack if you're into that

[drifting cosmos]

oh we actually doing g4 these days? is that the normal opener with vigor?

[balmy condor]

yeh

[drifting cosmos]

so g1 g2 g3 g4 cp fok till 4cp snd?

or rup

[balmy condor]

depends on pack size

I personally would always try and keep snd up

but I think it's fine to drop on 6

[drifting cosmos]

it feels like in aoe what we do mostly is just maintain bleeds

[balmy condor]

yep

[drifting cosmos]

so if like 3 target with 0 cp opener would be like g1 g2 g3 mut cp mut rup mut snd?

after these setup cp is prob good to refresh again

[balmy condor]

you mean CT?

[drifting cosmos]

oh yea sorry

[balmy condor]

I would do ct > snd > rup

but yeah, that's fine

[drifting cosmos]

i see. thanks Whisp

certainly feels different from bfa and legion

[balmy condor]

yeah

[safe totem]

whats rup?

[balmy condor]

rupture

the dot

[safe totem]

kekw

ty

brainfart

do you put rupture on all targets?

[balmy condor]

anything that lives long enough

[grave cove]

Peeps, is there a noticeable difference when cafting Zold on Feet vs Legs? R4 Legs are way more expensiv eon my server than boots

[spice spire]

It’s a higher stat cap, so there is a difference, but it’s whatever. It’s also better king term, but whatever works for you my guy

[grave cove]

Ok looks like I'll be a cheapskate on this leggo and go for boots

[oblique flare]

i mean, it's likely that we can further upgrade our legendaries with 9.1 anyway

[trim zinc]

doomblade is that bad compared to other ones??

[stoic needle]

It's okay

But zoldyck is better

[slow marsh]

Doomblade is fun in pvp =D

[wary ice]

stat distributionr atios will remain the same forever

feet wont suddenly have mroe 2ndaries than legs just cause its 9.1

[trim zinc]

why poeple says that Dashing Scoundrel is better but most warcraft logs uses zoldyck??

[daring pecan]

who are those people

[plain thistle]

they are probably talking about single target, in that case dashing is better, but overall everyone likes zoldyck for the raid/dungeons

[trim zinc]

the pins msg

yes for st

[plain thistle]

and zoldyck is execute damage, which is better for some fights

[halcyon grail]

Sim bait is the answer to your question. Some things sim better on straight up dummy dps no matter what, but in actually encounters are mostly just not as good.

[wary ice]

IDT DS really counts as sim bait tbh

it does better on ST; zoldyck's is just better in the greater context of the raid

[trim zinc]

thats good for pvp 2?? or its meme the execute for pvp
im asking all that cuz im starting plsying shadowlands rn so idk nothing

[wary ice]

i think pvp is Master assassin or Doomblade

[plain thistle]

yeah, not good for pvp

you cant reliable hit enemies in execute range

[pulsar sluice]

I think zoldyck will be a good second leggo in pvp

[plain thistle]

probably not

[wary ice]

Zoldyck requires too much up time to be good in pvp in comparison to other legendaries

[pulsar sluice]

Alot of these legendaries were made in mind for more then one leggo at a time

[tribal marlin]

deathly shadow

or even envigorating dust tbh

all in on that vanish

[wary ice]

Pvp 2nd will most likely be Deathly shadows with MA

[plain thistle]

or boomblade for more envenom damage

for the MA window

[tribal marlin]

or doomblade

[wary ice]

probably not doomblade

[pulsar sluice]

As more people get hp and vers MA is starting to lose its value, can't kill in openers

[wary ice]

the mut bleed does negligble damage and the env amp is equal to the deathly shadows bonsu

[trim zinc]

cuz im starting so i dont have soul ash to do like one legendarie to pve and one to pvp so i was trying to see if theres one that is ok for both and i was thinking about doomblade

[wary ice]

MA is a great catch all

[plain thistle]

yeah, you can go MA

[wary ice]

Strong on all specs in all content

maybe not the best

[plain thistle]

good for dungeon, raid and pvp

master assassin if you dont know what MA means xD

[stray ivy]

So i wanna do a less played meme spec, which is worse for m+/raids destro or assassin

[slow marsh]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[wary ice]

Assa is worse by virtue of being melee

You're inting by not playing aff tbh but that's a constant in this comparison so its whatever

Neither is bad though tbh

[stoic needle]

I feel like sin is better than destro though

[wary ice]

Its tough to say without more ppl playing either.

destro isnt bad though theres just no statistical reason to play it instead of afflock

more a testament to afflock's good than destro's bad

[tribal marlin]

sin is good. Subt is prob better dps wise, but assa bring a strong flat 2mn cooldown, potent dps regarding downtime and most of all strong execute

[azure carbon]

Eh, idk that I'd say a strong execute. But execute is better than no execute.

[stoic needle]

Sin rogues do the highest dps in the game during the execute phase afaik

[tribal marlin]

Well last time I tested (wednesday) I was simming higher than my gm warrior on execute

[vestal wren]

the main appeal of assassination is the ease of play and the high error resistence of the spec.
The reaosn to bring it is probably atm execute

[stoic needle]

Like higher than UH even

[tribal marlin]

idk if it's higher that UH but yes it's big dps

with my sub-optimal gear I was already simming 7100+ execute dps

[strange python]

Assassination is easy to play?

[vestal wren]

depends what you define as easy

a lot of people have issues with maintaining dots, so for any of those its probably a very hard spec

[strange python]

Easy in single target sure

I'd say in multi-target situations, it starts to get pretty "difficult"

[verbal mantle]

[vestal wren]

you mean the pacing change?

[strange python]

well no

just trying to keep dots up on 4+ targets

[vestal wren]

rupture has a fall back mechanic that allowes pretty mindlessly applications without issue

[strange python]

granted i don't run the best tools for PvE so it may be harder for me

[vestal wren]

also the energy regeneration is fairly high so possible that you don't need to manage energy to much in multi target

[stoic needle]

It can get pretty hectic when you throw a lot of mechanics into the mix but Idk if I'd call it hard

[vestal wren]

it probably comes down to what you compare it to

maintaining rupture on multiple targets is very risky on subtlety while not so on assassination.
So in a direct comparison between those 2 assassination has it easier

[strange python]

Maintaining Garrote...

[vestal wren]

however if you compare it to a spec that does not need to maintain multiple bleeds it def. is something harder than just pressing your aoe cooldown

[strange python]

because of the cd.

Here, let me say this

Playing the spec optimally seems hard.

Dot management is easy for me, but the hard part is keeping garrote on every target in packs.

[stoic needle]

Garotte is like the easiest one to maintain. A lot of it is not the spec itself but creating a ui that lets you keep track of your dots effectively

[wary ice]

Assa is hard to fuck up

[tribal marlin]

tbh I believe Outlaw has the highest skill cap

[vestal wren]

garrote is easier to maintain than rupture because it has less pre requirements

[stoic needle]

Because of the cd you can only really have 3 garottes up at one time unless you vanish to do more

[wary ice]

literally if you're in melee and keeping dots up

you're doing fine

[strange python]

@stoic needle yeah this is what i'm talking about

[wary ice]

optimizing the rotation is annoyingly precise though.

[strange python]

it hurts to see you type this.

[vestal wren]

i mean its possible

[stoic needle]

Idk why you're so adamant that outlaw takes no skill when it's simply not true

[tribal marlin]

there is too many little mistake / little optimisation you can do. Even if APL isn't able to find meaningful increase with dynamic priority (things such as rolling TB 4sec before it fade if you can't do a finisher, using BTE before rolling RP, etc...)

[vestal wren]

nobody attempts to get absolute everything perfect so one spec could have the theoretical highest skill cap

[strange python]

Ah, you see.

I'm a perfectionist.

[vestal wren]

we had a discussion about it yesterday

[stoic needle]

outlaw has like 3 different rotations that you have to switch between on the fly

Based on rng

I'd call that pretty skillful

Not everyone can adapt on a second to second basis like that

[vestal wren]

it comes down to how good a optimization is doable

[strange python]

I only say Outlaw is easier because you don't have to manage your cds at all.

[tribal marlin]

The simple fact that you have 0.8s gcd most of the time, almost gcd-cap as well and a lot of button to press in the correct order make the spec "high skillcap" but that's just my point of view.

Doesn't mean player that go Assa are bad or what. As I said multiple time in this discord : the way you are performing your dps rotation is far from being the only way that makes you a good player.

[vestal wren]

so even if one spec could have a lot of optimizations that are minor gains,
its possible that due to risks or human error those are not attempted

[strange python]

like 3 envenoms in your WPS

[stoic needle]

But using your cooldowns on cooldown is managing them

It's a different way of managing them, but it's still management

[tribal marlin]

IT's probably why Asiatics flavor Outlaw and Occidentals rather play Assa or Sub

[dim rampart]

I'm looking for the command that shows the addon to use mutilate and ambush on the same key 🤔

[vestal wren]

a good example is to be super preciese with your casts during shd to potentially gain additional high cp finisher

[tribal marlin]

That's giga

[strange python]

I heavily disagree with the idea that having to push your cds more means you manage them more.

[vestal wren]

it is theoretical a win, but has no real world appliction because its so easy to fail

[stoic needle]

It's not managing them more

It's just a method of management

[strange python]

But that's what you just said, is it not?

[stoic needle]

No it's not

Saying that outlaw doesn't have to manage CDs isn't true, it just manages them differently from other specs

[strange python]

Maybe I just have a different view because I've played so much of every class in the game.

[vestal wren]

outlaw requires a far diffrent skillset, the problem mikihisa mentions is reaction time.
Basically optimizing each gcd during low gcd times.
It is also something you can attempt that i am not sure is such a big issue if you fail every now and then

[tribal marlin]

Well for what I play of Outlaw, I really think you can easily mess up by doing small mistake again and again

[strange python]

So you mean Outlaw is harder in terms of gcd/pressing correct buttons fast enough, like if you get a pistol shot proc.

I can see that.

[tribal marlin]

very little things like doing 5cp dispatch over SS without broadside

pushing any button before rolling RTB

that's a mistake

Trying to manage GS combo point (mistake, GS on cd regardless of combo)

things like this

[strange python]

GS?

[tribal marlin]

ghostly strike

[strange python]

ah

the talent i've never used.

[stoic needle]

Lol

[vestal wren]

i think every spec of rogue has min/max potential

[strange python]

I've played outlaw a few times. it didn't seem hard at all, but i never exactly said I was playing optimally.

I agree.

[vestal wren]

assassination is the most limited one

because of the low energy income on pure st

[strange python]

Even with SnD and Vigor

Why does mutilate cost 50 energy

[tribal marlin]

In subtelty there is one think I was thinking off

it's about PV

[wary ice]

25 per dagger.

[tribal marlin]

basically the APL use ShD if there is >2sec left on SoD

[strange python]

I mean, I guess that's fair.

[tribal marlin]

so that you sometimes do 2 danse in a row, that's totally fine.

[stoic needle]

When you try to optimize outlaw it's definitely not simple

[tribal marlin]

But with PV you insteed want to use dance, then SoD then Dance again

[strange python]

Optimization may be hard.

[wary ice]

PV?

nvm

[tribal marlin]

perforated vein

conduit

[wary ice]

completely forgot it existed

[strange python]

But what is the difference between optimization and just standard execution?

Like the difference?
If it's negligible, then why bother?

[tribal marlin]

The only way to make it work is to use dance this way : Dance > Back stab > SoD Dance > Backstab etc...

[stoic needle]

Huge

[wary ice]

you're refering to what fuu was talking about

[stoic needle]

For outlaw its pretty big

[strange python]

I dunno if anything compares to Elemental Shaman though.

That class is bonkers on rotation.

[wary ice]

if an optimization's gain is offset by its difficulty of exectution then the gain is negligabe

[strange python]

so if you gain only like 200dps

[tribal marlin]

difficulty or worst : possibility

[wary ice]

200 dps is a lot

[tribal marlin]

sometime you can't just perform your rotation correctly

that's why Assa is so strong

[balmy condor]

!bs

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[stoic needle]

It's more than 200 dps

[dim rampart]

thanks !

[strange python]

Optimizing and focusing on your rotation (to me)
leaves you with the ability to not be optimized in other areas.

[stoic needle]

Look at the difference between top outlaw logs and the 80%

[tribal marlin]

simple rotation = no upset with mechanics = real dps closer to theorical dps which often mean higher real dps

[vestal wren]

assassination being forgiving in its execution is a very good thing

[strange python]

Most dot specs though are forgiving in my experience.

[balmy condor]

They kinda have to be by nature

[stoic needle]

My personal problem with outlaw is that you are constantly adapting to the rng of rtb. It's just not a fun gameplay loop to me. Id prefer if they made the buffs not random but selectable in some way and made some obviously better for different situations like aoe vs single target vs burst vs downtime while preserving the effect they have on your rotation

[wary ice]

Outlaw rng is a huge overstatement tbh

[stoic needle]

It's not an overstatement that you have to adapt on the fly based on what buffs you roll

I fundamentally don't find that enjoyable

[wary ice]

eh; you only change things based on broadsides tbh

everything else just makes the rest of your gameplay faster/more often

[stoic needle]

You still have to react to extra procs from snc and keep an eye on your cooldowns being up sooner than they would usually with true bearing

It's totally different from, for example, shiv being up for every pillar on sludgefist if you use it on CD

[wary ice]

YEah no arguments

[stoic needle]

There'd be more adjustment needed if buried treasure and grand melee actually did something

I'm not saying outlaw is bad, I just don't enjoy the way it plays out right now

[strange python]

I simmed my character for aoe
it said 6k dps in a 4 target cleave but I only hit around 4.5k-5k

[viral mirage]

Grand Melee is fantastic if you want the sense of accomplishment of ending a boss fight with 3 mins of snd left because RTB hates you.

[wary ice]

but like RTB Rng isnt whats causing that

[strange python]

It shows that slice and dice was up only .1% of the time 👀

[balmy condor]

Yeah, I think threshold from sims is 4 target

[stoic needle]

I'd rather have every buff be very impactful and you choose them based on the situation. Like, you'd swap to grand melee right before or during an intermission phase to build up a bunch of SnD time so you can focus on DPSing later. Or if a prio add comes up you switch to ruthless precision for more burst. If there were a cleave buff you could switch to that in a cleave situation. And give each buff a cooldown so that you can't chain them back to back and it'd force you to make decisions of when to press each button to have the perfect buff up for the right situation of the fight

[balmy condor]

It’s really nothing a difference if you keep it up on more targets

[stoic needle]

I'd find that infinitely more satisfying than the current incarnation

[balmy condor]

In the 5-20 dps range

[stoic needle]

But that's just me

[strange python]

I know but 6k seems high when I feel I'm doing it pretty good and only getting like 4.5k-5k

[stoic needle]

They don't have to make the game based around me

[strange python]

maybe because I don't vanish on packs, i wait for bosses?

[stoic needle]

Yeah that'd do it

And you probably don't have bloodlust during most packs

[strange python]

I turned off bloodlust

[stoic needle]

Never hold vanish

[strange python]

it feels weird to vanish and vendetta ads

but granted, I havent done many dungeons this tier so I don't really know much about them

[stoic needle]

It feels weird but it's a dps loss not to

[strange python]

:c

[stoic needle]

Just vendetta the beefiest one and vanish on CD

[strange python]

lmfao i normally vendetta just not vanish

I also use it as a defensive cd just in case there is a wipe

[stoic needle]

It would be nice if vendetta had some aoe use

Lol uh, no

So much of our damage is from vanish

Don't use it as a defensive

[oblique flare]

let vendetta spread your bleeds

[stoic needle]

Exsang with vendetta up is aoe vein rippers

[strange python]

That'd be an interesting change...

[oblique flare]

that way you could dot one target and vendetta it

woosh

[balmy condor]

Not using vanish

Y I K E R S

[strange python]

also tbf

i changed my vanish hotkey

from S+` to SV

[oblique flare]

shift plus

what

[strange python]

shift and tilde

tilde is my stealth

shift tilde is vanish

[balmy condor]

Vanish is a bigger dps gain in cleave than vendetta btw

[sour citrus]

How long does it take you to switch from nightfae to kyrian? Just read the pin...dem...last time I read it was nightfae

[strange python]

👀

[wary ice]

[balmy condor]

Don’t switch to kyrian

[stoic needle]

Is it better to vanish to refresh garottes or vanish on pull after the first 3 to put up 3 more? Assuming it's a 5+ target pull

[wary ice]

at 5 yargets

[strange python]

Why not snapshot and let your garrotes fall off>?

[stoic needle]

I try to do the former but I think I don't always get the chance to and it loses me casts

[sour citrus]

But but it said...why?

[wary ice]

its g1-g2-g3-vanish-g4-g5-ct

mfd rup

[strange python]

ah

you have the energy to do that? 👀

[sour citrus]

I asked how long will it take to switch faction not what dps gain I will get or gain.

[stoic needle]

The first 3 garottes will give you the energy to yeah

[strange python]

i iknow but with mfd?

You lose so much base energy

[balmy condor]

You’re really gonna hate this, but there’s no difference between those two aside from the time difference on vanish

[wary ice]

and im telling you to sim yourself before you commit to a time sink