probably because mostly rogue players are focused on the state of rogues
#assassination
stoic needle
But he shut up after I embarrassed him on the meters pull after pull
Literally every single pull I did 500+ more dps than him
fleet whale
I wish the priests in my group
strange python
weird/odd question
what slot do I craft Zoldyck?
fleet whale
would know they should PI me in execute lol
stoic needle
He was like 'imagine playing asassa'
hollow escarp
I did well on reclear this week on sin, even if I messed up my subterfuge resets
stoic needle
And I was like 'imagine losing on dps to a sin rogue'
fleet whale
Sin isn't even bad though anymore
just not many people play it still so it will never rank high this tier
stoic needle
Shitters will be shitters
hollow escarp
no sin on SLG yet
stoic needle
I'm glad it wasn't fucking peen
stoic needle
fleet whale
nothing really is wrong with him
hollow escarp
he was
stoic needle
He just plays like shit
fleet whale
Not really
stoic needle
But was rank 1 just because no one else was playing sin and he gets fed PI
fleet whale
he does some things that i guess aren't optimal
stoic needle
His openers were objectively trash
hollow escarp
glad you didn't check my openers 
stoic needle
Im really being petty because I don't like his name 
Imagine the #1 player of our spec is literally named penis
hollow escarp
there are only 5 sin rogues on my realm that killed mythic bosses 
one of them is Zerocool
south nest
Fuck, and I was hoping I'd be the first to kill Sire on Myth as Sin, then I'd have a ez 100 log for once
stoic needle
If I'd known how much of a factor gear is for getting good logs I'd have tried harder to get geared up earlier in the expansion
Sucks playing catch-up
south nest
I think im the only sin Rogue on our server. So realm first every boss in HC with Sin rogue 😄
hollow escarp
I know measuring stuff server wide is not that relevant but it's a good starting point to make goals
stoic needle
It's fun to have local competition
hollow escarp
ye
south nest
ye true my guild got real first sire hc so ggwp
hollow escarp
I want it back
hollow escarp
WrA?
vocal iris
is it possible to onebutton macro mutilate/ambush for the blindside proc, or do i always need a separate keybind for nonstealthed ambush?
south nest
Butit is the worst german server according to Raid Progress.
stoic needle
Wyrmrest accord
hollow escarp
ah
hollow escarp
RP
hollow escarp
Argent Dawn had a renowned sin rogue in early mythic progression
Afto or something like that
that's RP server on EU
stoic needle
I like the rp, but I care more about raiding and being competitive
hollow escarp
RP servers feel nice to play on
stoic needle
I can't make any money because it's a high pop server with a tiny raiding population
hollow escarp
wait, I'm 2nd sin rogue on my realm based on ilvl 
south nest
i mean Area 52 sucks in EU
south nest
so is easy to get realm first. I could get realm first myth n zoth, and Jaina with my guild...
south nest
ye i know but wouldnt change the fact, that Area 52 in EU sucks 😄 Area 52 in US is big af
hollow escarp
you also got Eredar which is pretty hardcore
south nest
it is german?
hollow escarp
got most CE guilds for population ratio
yes
just like Stormreaver
low pop with a lot of CE guilds
south nest
i know, blackmoore, aegwynn and Antonidas are the big ones
hollow escarp
south nest
so ez game for me now i can flex with real first LUL ( but i will never tell them my server sucks.)
safe plover
Hi, what are good m+ talents? 🙂
south nest
2212223 in myth+
strange python
this and only this ^
safe plover
smh smh reading wall of text
south nest
u dont have to scroll that much 😄 was like 30min ago
safe plover
can u just link the macro :D?
south nest
the best macro is MFD, Kidney 😄
hollow escarp
yep
can't it happen that if you have 1 cp, the kidney will come first before the MFD?
considering kidney is on gcd
and mfd not
strange python
#showtooltip Slice and Dice
/cast [mod:alt] Marked for Death
/cast Slice and Dice
safe plover
wait but mfd is not in the m+ spec
strange python
you can run it
hollow escarp
gonna try mfd now
strange python
it's just not optimal since we don't get CDR from finishers.
safe plover
ok now i need opener and aoe rotation 😄
strange python
opener for m+
Stealth
with Subterfuge and Iron Wire
Garrote 3-4 targets
slice and dice
fan of knives until combo points for CT
use fan of knives for ruptures on targets
keep garrote, CT, and rupture on targets.
safe plover
k
strange python
higher haste, you can garrote 5 targets in your subterfuge opener :)
with the 5th one putting it on CD
south nest
uff 😄
strange python
yeah...
assassination is going to feel bad homie XD
safe plover
actually in pvp is more then good
strange python
Not for assassination
safe plover
yes for assasination
strange python
mastery isn't the best*for assassination...
most people pick crit over mastery for their stats for assassination
Vers>= Haste > Crit > Mastery
It's not like feral where you stack mastery.
safe plover
yea but if you hop between sub and assa because assa is only worth in 2s atm
i know i need haste but my CPs needs to go to higher prio spec
south nest
@hollow escarp I have just tested it in the arena. And the macro worked (MFD, Kidney)
well no dont work mb 😄
fleet anchor
MfD macros are a little strange
The game checks CP criteria at the start of the macro for some reason, even if MfD is first
Meaning if you do like
/cast MfD
/cast Finisher
If you don't have at least 1 CP you will have to press it twice
If you have 1 CP it should work correctly
south nest
nice dmg
south nest
thats huge, u r around 215?
south nest
oke so i have to improve 😄 4.2k is not that good
south nest
Trina is a good dungeon for aoe dmg
south nest
so u used ur MFD for instant SND
hollow escarp
mfd for envenoms or rupture
I rarely used mfd foc snd
because I always had some residual 2-3 cp
snow arch
MA or zold?
south nest
nah only 8.3 with corruption was good.
hollow escarp
I liked Uldir sin
south nest
the trinket from elisande was so good
hollow escarp
I had Amanthul's Vision
south nest
with the legendary and the relicts. u were all the time in burst 😄
hollow escarp
it dropped during a boost run
south nest
but we have zold back. i loved this legendary so much back in legion
i miss Kingsbane so much
hollow escarp
they added Dreadblades as talent for outlaw 
maybe we get Kingsbane
some day
a mutated version
south nest
i hope so i send a suggestion to blizz every day 😛
strange python
what is kingsbane?
south nest
artifact spell from sin rogue back in Legion
strange python
i’d rather have slice and dice removed and restless blades for all specs
That’d make the cake for me :D
topaz saffron
Activating Master Assassin at the end of a Kingsbane DoT was so good ❤️
south nest
yess that was soo good
azure carbon
they added Dreadblades as talent for outlaw <:pepLaff:742974415385395303>
I mean... it exists only if you are OK with losing a ton of DPS.
azure carbon
I think mechanically sin is fine. I do think would be cool if Exsanguinate was baseline though. Sin has like the least buttons out of every spec in the game.
bitter drift
Happy to see 20 keys being completed by SIN rogues!
balmy condor
is there a 20 done on sin?
bitter drift
balmy condor
god fucking damnit
bitter drift
pretty solid
balmy condor
of course its peen
strange python
Peen KEKW
bitter drift
balmy condor
now that I can get behind
balmy condor
zold > MA
bitter drift
what it seems
fleet whale
if you're group is consistently pulling like 3-5 mobs instead of mega pulls
sin can hold out pretty well in M+
bitter drift
well even outlaw aoe is limited to 5 right?
MA+KS burst combo that's so OP right now is 5 targets right?
fleet whale
yeah i guess i forgot about the aoe cap and outlaw is prolly still stronger at 5 targets
but even still, sin does well in 3-5 packs that live long enough
for your dots to do their work
stoic needle
Exsanguinate baseline?
Ct and alacrity baseline imo
fleet whale
exsang should be removed at this point
strange python
I like that too.
bitter drift
Yeah I think it's nice to have all of our specs finally viable. I see Sin as the balance between Sub and Outlaw. It works well as both PVE and PVP, but Outlaw still best for PVE and Sub still best for PVP
stoic needle
I like exsang though
Just because it's undertuned doesn't mean it needs to be removed
fleet whale
the talent needs too many things for it to be good
stoic needle
Sub needs a buff
bitter drift
^ in what?
stoic needle
Sub needs a huge single target buff imo
bitter drift
oh for pve?
stoic needle
Yeah
strange python
Based on logs sub continues to drop
stoic needle
I fundamentally reject the idea of sub being the 'pvp spec'
bitter drift
I miss the good old days when Sub was only pvp
bitter drift
Combat or Sin was the PvE option
stoic needle
They need to get rid of enveloping shadows
fleet whale
dot juggling in between your burst
bitter drift
I miss combat rogue so much... Outlaw just doesn't feel as good to me
stoic needle
Enveloping shadows means that they can't give sub the st dps it deserves
fleet whale
symbols should be axed too
azure carbon
Idk, Sin and Combat have been viable in both PvE and PvP for a most of the time.
bitter drift
Combat really wasn't viable for PvP tbh
stoic needle
I feel like it's possible to make all 3 specs viable in pvp and pve
azure carbon
I miss combat rogue so much... Outlaw just doesn't feel as good to me
Its the same spec just with pirate theme.
bitter drift
Outlaw has been, but I don't recall Combat ever being solid for PvP
strange python
I'm just not a fan of rtb as such a major mechanic for outlaw
fleet whale
Pre legion it was only specific seasons and comps for sin and outlaw to be pvp viable
stoic needle
But to do that they need to reinforce the niches of the specs I stead of making them all generalist
fleet whale
i think s4 combat was decent in arena
stoic needle
Which is the trend they're going toward now
stoic needle
Outlaw/combat should be the aoe spec, for battlegrounds and teamfights and aoe in raids and m+. Sub should be the huge giga burst spec for arenas and 1v1s and fights that need burst damage, and sin is the cleave/all-rounder spec with dots that doesn't suffer from downtime
But as it is now, every spec does all of those things kinda similarly except outlaw which is just tuned best
So there's no reason to play any of the specs except one
I don't like that
Black powder needs to be removed
fleet whale
i mean it's getting to the point where people may remove BP from their bars lol
stoic needle
Oof lmao
fleet whale
also funnily enough with all the aura buffs
fok does significantly more damage than Shuriken storm
stoic needle
They should remove enveloping shadows and black powder, un-nerf akaaris and give sub an aura buff
Outlaw is fine the way it is and the other specs should be balanced around it
Sin deserves ct and alacrity baseline
empty cradle
Outlaw is kinda getting carried on st at least rn by count the odds and celerity
stoic needle
Like sub needs to be doing wayyyyyyy more single target damage than it does currently to justify it's existence and reinforce the cooldown lining up gameplay
Sub should be like the #1 single target dps in the game
Not fucking boomkin
pulsar sluice
fleet whale
or give us some raid tools
azure carbon
They;re too afraid of Sub doing way too strong funnel damage again.
fleet whale
i just hate that since i'm in a smaller/more casual guild
strange python
Yeah I think its kinda bs that monk is best melee while also having so many utility abilities
stoic needle
I don't see what's wrong with that when we have other classes doing even more damage in aoe cleave and single target all the time with no drawbacks
Let rogue be good at something ffs
stoic needle
It would be cool if they removed more raid utility and instead built those mechanics into the encounters via items in the raid or things you need to activate
Like instead of dks having amz, say there's an anima jar you can smash that gives an amz during a boss encounter
Just an example
So then you can bring whatever class you want and not be missing our on xyz utility or buff
azure carbon
Eh, Blizz is just bad at balancing. Like they said they wanted all covenants to be a flavour choice not a power choice, yet Convoke the Spirits is literally 15% more damage than the next highest druid option. Even if they hard nerfed and simplified the game they'd still be bad at balancing, they just dont care. Like they could literally double the damage of Flag & Bone Spike and it wouldn't chnage rogue power at all.
empty cradle
That’s interesting in theory but is probably gonna feel wonky in practice
azure carbon
And Rogue is probably the most balanced class in regards to covenant balance.
fleet whale
too bad all of our abilities are lame
stoic needle
Yeah blizz is just bad at balancing lol
empty cradle
Other specs got some cool stuff and then all rogue abilities are hit mob and get delayed bonus
scenic nacelle
That’s why they are balanced 🙂
fleet whale
at least convoke thematically makes sense for druid
stoic needle
Not boring shit
fleet whale
like why the hell is night fae bis for warlocks?
strange python
Blizz needs a new class tuning team or somethin. These flat dmg% aura buffs are so lazy imo
fleet whale
blizz needs a class team in general
stoic needle
Yeah
They need a dedicated developer for each class
It seems like the have one person handling several
empty cradle
Convoke the skill apparently used to cast more spells
empty cradle
I think it should have stayed like that
More randomness probably would make the skill feel more balanced when other classes look at their covenant abilities
fleet whale
I mean our own TCers pointed out how broken SBS was in beta, and how it needed to changed etc
meanwhile, other class tcers
sandbag sims
azure carbon
Convoke and Wild Spirits are pretty much 12% of Druid/Hunter dmg.
stoic needle
What was it like when it was slaughter?
low girder
stoic needle
Convoke and Wild Spirits are pretty much 12% of Druid/Hunter dmg.
This is only a problem because ours are 3%
It's the disparity
empty cradle
Convoke and Wild Spirits are pretty much 12% of Druid/Hunter dmg.
You mean you don’t love watching them burst 25k because they cast a 3 s cast time spell in 0.25s and then a star surge?
stoic needle
I think it would be fine if every class' covenant was 10% of their damage
That's what I mean when I say give everyone the sauce
People like big numbers. Why not give them to them
empty cradle
I think you’re just trying to say everyone should have fun pressing their covenant flavour button
azure carbon
I dont even think some classes having better covenant abilities is a problem. DOesn't really matter how much borrowed power a class gets if the numbers are balanced in the end.
empty cradle
But right now people go “wow this sucks compared to toll/convoke/spirits and other outliers
azure carbon
I do think rogue having decent Theorycrafting though does hurt us a bit. Like WW monks found like 20% extra dmg in their APL same day that they got buffed 15%. Now they have the highest AoE damage in the game. If they just had their APL right there is no way blizzard just gives them a 15% aura buff.
But, I'm glad our theorycrafters are good. its nice having reliable sims.
stoic needle
I think if they fixed the numbers and restored and of the old functionality on our abilities it wouldn't be so bad
Flag could be cool if it actually did something noticeable
Sepsis should vanish again
Sbs should actually do damage
ER is actually pretty great imo
azure carbon
I dont actually think they need to buff rogue covenant abilities to be as OP as Convoke or Wild Hunt. Just would like to not be entirely redundant because UDK does all the same shit and more damage c/w the best execute in the game.
stoic needle
I don't think that they need to be OP, but I think sepsis vanishing or at least giving stealth bonuses was awesome
And the others just need number buffs or some slight tweaking to reinforce the fantasy behind then
Half of the reason why they feel so boring is because of the tuning/nunbers
It's the same as sin, actually lol
People were like 'sin is so boring, blah blah' and now after 18% of buffs everyone's talking about how fun it is
azure carbon
Yeah... Flag does the same damage as an Eviscerate/Dispatch/Envenom over 20s, and Bone Spike does less damage than Mutilate/SS/Backstab. You pump those numbers a but and the opinion of them likely changes wildly.
Even wouldn't mind if Flag healed, fits thematically, and makes it not complete utter garbage in PvP.
hollow escarp
just did my first +16 as sin 
azure carbon
nice.
slow marsh
I would just like more synergy overall with CAs. To me it makes no sense sbs, a rogue specific ability, doesn't interact with rogue specific abilities and count as a bleed. Or sepsis poison. Like I just feel the abilities could be so much more than they are even given the current state. It's just pure laziness. Or maybe blizz balance team just doesn't play rogue at all so they don't care...
stoic needle
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Apparently it's one of their design goals for certain covenants to be better for some specs than others but I think that is a huge mistake
I want to have a necrolord or venthyr bleed build, or a NF poison build
slow marsh
It would offer more actual variety and ability to close the gap on builds more. But also that takes more work so it'll never happen
lyric crater
yes have venthyr do a bleed not a lash that be great!
stoic needle
A stacking bleed
azure carbon
Apparently it's one of their design goals for certain covenants to be better for...
There is no way that was the intention. I can maybe buy it for hybrid classes... you can't balance an ability for a Tank spec, Heal Spec, and DPS spec at the same time... is what it is. But for Rogue/Mage/Hunter/Lock? Nah...
stoic needle
That justification has been repeated several times over the past few months in here when the subject is brought up
lyric crater
yea i swith to them in a heart beat there mog is cool but sadly not great for pvp or raid : /
stoic needle
I'll have to see if I can find some support for it
Imagine if flag was a stacking bleed that did more damage the more CP you spend
With the haste buff at the end when you reactivate
That would be so sick
lyric crater
i think it was a idea but some bone head though lash was better
jolly comet
they did some crazy shit class wise during the beta
like removing maelstrom from ele shaman
then realizing they made a huge mistake
and slapping it back on
lyric crater
they did for melee shaman not the range spec
jolly comet
yea for awhile they tried to remove it
was like 2 week period
anyways. from a conspiracy perspective they put so much work into outlaw and sub to make it "work" feels like sin got left in the dust
lyric crater
i like it them with out the maelstorm mana bar better makes it hard them to off heal in pvp arena lost few match cause of off healing class
strange python
outlaw wasn’t an issue though
stoic needle
anyways. from a conspiracy perspective they put so much work into outlaw and sub...
Not a conspiracy, look at all of the qol shit they added to both
We got a dumb shiv/toxic blade change
jolly comet
i thought they did work from BFA to SL around roll the bones and stuff
stoic needle
And that's it
jolly comet
yea thats what im saying
lyric crater
outlaw ok rng isnt as bad but some time i feel i get no poc on 5+ hits on ss
stoic needle
Our talents need a refresh desperately
strange python
outlaw was fine
stoic needle
jolly comet
god damn you are so needy 😆
hey remember that awesome az talent shrouded suff
lets just leave that in the dustbin
everyone hated it anyway
lyric crater
sub can go under a rock where it belongs just my opion i dont like it but im sure there are people that love that spec
strange python
I want all 3 rogue specs to be good
jolly comet
and cov abilities in general
however casting instant buffed chain harvest as enh shaman feels so much better than having to cast it unempowered in resto or ele
lyric crater
it just all sub damage base around shadow dance no dance no damage or enegry regen
slow marsh
Sin feels great now in action. I was playing sub before last week
jolly comet
so spec to spec a lot of cov abiltiies feels worse/better
strange python
sin feels better
slow marsh
I mean I didn't say it performs great
stoic needle
Sadly I don't think we're going to get anything
We will have to rely on the new systems in the next patches to fix our issues
jolly comet
unless there are new cov abilities coming or new borrowed power stuff i agree
slow marsh
Yep we can only pray for tier sets that they can screw us over with
lyric crater
sin does feel better i feel i can dps elite now before was rough
strange python
The issue with comparing outlaw to comparing assassination rogue and subtlety is as simple as
- They have restless blades, so more uptime on their AR and other abilities
- They have a legendary that compliments that very well (celerity) vs our legendaries that are no where near in the same league.
livid temple
@strange python I mean that's the issue with Blizzard as long as 1 or 2 of a classes specs perform fine they the others can be left until next expac. Like I doubt sub will see any changes even though it could def use some help
lyric crater
or we can all just role druid cause no matter what they do to them they always seem to buff one spec or break one that what i noitce over the years on druids
slow marsh
I would like mutilate to do more damage to targets that are bleeding or something. That's not hard and would be at least some kind of change
strange python
Buff doomblade maybe?
lyric crater
being able to use swords or axes on sin would be neat
strange python
I just think a legendary that does more than execute damage would be nice.
slow marsh
Or even if FoK did more damage to bleeding targets. That would help cleave while actually requiring something
slow marsh
Well of course
lyric crater
god for bid blizzard give rogue a good execute!
strange python
or a 15% damage buff when all bleeds are on the target?
something that fits the class fantasy/playstyle
slow marsh
A lot of stuff is built in to legendaries but we need two legendaries together to really make it interesting
Doomblade + zoldycks for example
strange python
I’d rather just run doomblade and RS
slow marsh
If zoldycks was base line it would be a game changer
strange python
or whatever it’s called
lyric crater
what about the posion they gave us and took a way during legion that increase all are abitiy again that target
slow marsh
There's rogue baseline execute
strange python
I don’t think assassination needs execute though.
I think it just needs some QOL changes
subtlety yes I whole heartedly agree, not assassination.
azure carbon
Execute gives it a niche. And I think it makes sense thematically.
slow marsh
Yeah but its the reason we exist right now is the execute
strange python
Arguable.
lyric crater
i would love a execute little pay back there are at least 4 class that have execute
slow marsh
I mean you could probably argue a lot of things but zoldycks execute is the only reason to have a sin rogue right now. If you are playing Dashing for st then you're literally just playing the worst spec for fun
Which you can play stuff for fun. Nothing wrong with that
shy dust
i would love a execute little pay back there are at least 4 class that have exec...
Having a strong execute
Is the most noticable of niches
And is generally very fucking strong
livid temple
Tbh the only rogue spec I think that would make sense to have an execute is sub
livid temple
I mean right now unholy has the strongest execute in the game which makes no sense to me
strange python
Allow me to say this
I get Zoldyck is the best
I just don't want it to be.
I think something along the lines of faster rots/ticks rather than damage is beneficial.
stoic needle
Zoldyck is boring
strange python
^^^
shy dust
Why would you run bring Double dose back
slow marsh
True
shy dust
There is nothing interesting about DD
stoic needle
Flat damage increases are boring
slow marsh
But it is the reality we live in atm
strange python
It hurts thinking about it...
man outlaw is fun because they constantly have their cds up and they're just going wild
meanwhile i'm waiting 2 minutes for my only damage cd.
slow marsh
I would like to see ambush not be so boring.
strange python
Nah, I'm fine with ambush
slow marsh
That could help and factor in to the execute thing
azure carbon
Tbh the only rogue spec I think that would make sense to have an execute is sub
You dont think Assassins... ya know... execute things?
stoic needle
There is nothing interesting about DD
I think the extra poison proc is interesting
slow marsh
Like if ambush had an execute on itself would be cool mahbe
strange python
So holding your vanish for an execute? :c
that doesn't sound good
and to include that it costs 50 energy to cast..
slow marsh
Blindside procs more during execute to do damage with execute ability
strange python
so you wanna force the talent tree over?
slow marsh
The talent tree is already forced wym
balmy condor
sin talent tree has quite a lot of options compared to most
slow marsh
I'm saying there's lots of options already there they just need to pick one
strange python
The talents really aren't the problem.
It's the legendary and comparing it to the other specs.
slow marsh
Get rid of blindside and bake it in as a passive like killing machine. Make zoldycks baseline. Make muti do more damage to bleeding targets, or envenom more damage to bleeding. Any of those would be nice and help a lot i feel
shy dust
I mean
It’s not a spec thing
It’s a rogue thing
Rogue doesn’t have standout anything really
stoic needle
I dunno, I feel like exsang being mathematically impossible to be good is a bad thing
shy dust
Outside of cto/celerity
strange python
Nonono
Don't make Zoldyck baseline
give a passive that when garrote, rupture, and deadly poison or wound poison are on a target, the bleeds either rot 15% faster or deal 15% more damage (not specific numbers)
lyric crater
hmm i do remember when posion use to gave increase damage to taget by 5 % think it was magic damage back in the day before DH
slow marsh
I agree though rogues in general are hurting for a niche right now since UH dk stole ours. But this is sin channel so I'm just speaking sin changes
strange python
I don't like the idea of execute on assassination rogue, only on subtlety.
slow marsh
True
stoic needle
You're literally assassinating someone
lyric crater
yep
slow marsh
Sub has shadowdance for flavor stuff
They get to use stealth abilities whenever
We should kill things
strange python
Well, yeah.
but why would a spec that focuses on rot damage be called "assassination"
stone epoch
I think it comes more from the poison side than the bleed side there
stoic needle
I mean poisoning someone is a method of assasination
strange python
I get that.
stoic needle
So is garotting them
strange python
But all the rogue specs have poisons...
stoic needle
That change was a mistake
stone epoch
Haha, ye, that's more of a recent thing.
slow marsh
But not DEADLY poison 🙂
slow marsh
😆😆😆😆
lyric crater
assasination kill it target slowly or fast depend on how u want the job donew
stoic needle
They need to give us a really powerful poison if they're gonna have all specs have poisons
Like kingsbane
balmy condor
who cares what things are called tbh
strange python
^^^^^^^^^^^^
shy dust
They should just let sin use both utility poisons thiugh
No reason why it shouldn’t
It’s the poison spec after all
stoic needle
I would like to see more types of poison abilities besides just deadly poison, envenom and poison bomb
livid temple
@azure carbon yes and no, the current vibe for Sin seems more like a assassination through poison like a long painful drawn out assassination
stoic needle
But we still do solid burst with vendetta
slow marsh
I would agree with the poison thing. It feels more of a bleed spec right now
strange python
Give us the survival hunter treatment 🥲
azure carbon
<@172107670449291264> yes and no, the current vibe for Sin seems more like a ass...
Right, but it fits thematically for assassination to have an execute.
livid temple
Would be neat if they brought back doses in a way for Sin, like deadly poison could stack up to 10 /5 times and envenom would consume 5 doses to deal that damage instantly
azure carbon
Give us the survival hunter treatment 🥲
RDPS Rogue. POG.
strange python
nononono
I mean like
rework our class so no one plays it ever again 😎
stoic needle
Would be neat if they brought back doses in a way for Sin, like deadly poison co...
That would be cool
slow marsh
Long story short, we already kind of have an execute so it would be nice if they would build on what's already there
livid temple
@azure carbon 100% it fits the theme if you are just going off the name being assassination, but it doesn't fit the current playstyle
strange python
What if they added an "agony" type buff where rupture deals more damage the longer you keep it up?
Like Agony for afflocks?
That'd be a nice change, not specifically for m+ but for boss fights/raids :D
stoic needle
Generally I'd like some kind of stacking damage something
lyric crater
they had some thing like that in legion chane on rup dealing increase damage by 100%
stoic needle
Whether it's a bleed or a poison
livid temple
@stoic needle I think that would be a nice change of pace to sin rogue taking a lot of time to ramp, it wouldn't be crazy instant damage because you would still need to wait for doses to build. But would be a nice change to the current apply dots and keep em rolling
stoic needle
I like things that reward good play on the part of the player
Refreshing dots in pandemic could give a damage boost
strange python
^^^
stoic needle
As a spec passive
slow marsh
Like doomblade you mean ?
strange python
don't make the class overpowered
make it good when it's played correctly
stone epoch
I wish doomblade was better, my favorite leggo in concept
slow marsh
Literally just make doomblade base lol these are all already leggos we just need them to pick one and bake it in
stoic needle
Same
strange python
It would 100% fit the theme of the spec too to do something like that
stoic needle
Haha I see what you mean strider
lyric crater
why not i can name a few class that are op and never get nerf hard enough over the year
azure carbon
I think Warlock has been the only class thats like WF level in every raid.
strange python
I agree, but it's OP in the sense that they have way too much
stoic needle
Outlaw isn't OP, it's just that sub doesn't do enough single target damage so there's no reason to play sub tbh
strange python
Outlaw is doing what sub and assassination shuold be doing
stoic needle
Exactly
strange python
and part of that is because of restless blades and celerity
lyric crater
i think outlaw would do better if the mastery was chane to % on doing extra attack like it was back in classic days
strange python
that's what the mastery is now.
stoic needle
It's just with your offhand instead of main hand
slow marsh
Outlaw got lucky in that it's conduits and legendary complement and compensate for it's only weajnesseu
lyric crater
its off hand it crap
slow marsh
Weakness
lyric crater
main hand would hit alot harder
azure carbon
Outlaw isn't OP, what are you guys talking about. Sin and Sub are just tuned low.
slow marsh
The rng is taken out and celerity increases it's ST a lot. Weaknesses shored. Meanwhile the other specs are fighting to make their strengths viable.
slow marsh
There is still rng
shy dust
It’s not that it shored up its weaknesses
slow marsh
But it's much less
shy dust
It’s just they got strong conduits and legos
strange python
even if it didn't have CTO
strange python
it would still be above both sub and sin
shy dust
It just gives them more damage
Cto is a massive outlier
In comparison to any rogue conduit
azure carbon
But like... OL is just kinda slightly above average at everything. its like 5th in ST and 5th in AOE. Literally as a spec its redundant compared to WW and UDK.
strange python
OL?
shy dust
It’s not shoring up weakness or lowering rng
slow marsh
But like... OL is just kinda slightly above average at everything. its like 5th ...
Exactly
shy dust
It’s just outlier that gives lots of damage
slow marsh
Well whatever you want to say it is fine
strange python
i'm for the idea that all specs of each class should be viable in PvE and everything except for tanks in PvP.
Hard to achieve though.
I just want assassination back to what it was in 8.3 :(
lyric crater
haha i agree tanks in pvp is a no no only time u want one is for flag holder
shy dust
I just want assassination back to what it was in 8.3 :(
No lmao
strange python
No?
shy dust
8.3 assassination was a nice one off thing
It’s the complete opposite of how the spec is meant to be played generally
strange python
having tons of haste made it feel good though?
stoic needle
Yeah no thanks I don't need turbo adhd sin back again
stoic needle
Sin is supposed to be the arms of rogue
stoic needle
Slow, methodical, hard hitting
shy dust
It has worked for a while now
stoic needle
But now it's just slow and not hard hitting
balmy condor
or anything other than sin
slow marsh
The. Play sub if you want spammy lol
strange python
I think the point I was trying to make is missed.
livid temple
@stoic needle 100% agree, sub is meant to be just a raw ST machine, kinda like how Spriest is right now. The cleave and AoE are suppose to be mediocre/bad, and the ST huge, right now I think for them to become in like for good single target they would need about a 8-10% buff to their single target abilities and 15% if they were to become the new meta (tbh I don't think 15% would be to strong because of how much damage sub loses during downtime /mechanics vs something like sin
strange python
slower not slow.
shy dust
Sin is 48 apm currently
azure carbon
I mean, its kinda designed to be the slowest spec in the game.
shy dust
It was like 44ish apm in EP
strange python
i'm not saying make sin rogue like fire mage
with a 18 button opener in 5 seconds.
balmy condor
how much faster do you want
strange python
I never said I wanted it to be faster specifically
I just said I like hitting my buttons more.
and haste last expansion did that. :)
stoic needle
<@502859708504342538> 100% agree, sub is meant to be just a raw ST machine, kind...
That's why I was saying earlier they need to remove black powder and enveloping shadows and give sub the god damn sauce. Make it an absolute undisputed single target pumper
bright turret
Sin was kind of a wild ride in BFA, it was dreadfully slow before essences and got a bit nutty at the end
livid temple
Sin isn't that slow, haste makes up a big deal of speed. Right now sin plays a little bit faster than a sub rogue outside of dance.
strange python
I was about to say.
Sin rogue right now feels much better and faster to play than sub by a huge margin.
Sub isn't made to be played fast, it's made to hit hard.
Outlaw I like as being a fast spec.
But just because a class is rot oriented doesn't mean it should be slow.
fleet whale
sin was never really dreadfully slow unless if you were a fresh 120 character
and that's how sin is every expac lol
stoic needle
They can't give sub the damage it deserves because it's burst windows are too frequent
azure carbon
If you just want like 15% more haste, then Sin will likely be exactly that in 9.1
stoic needle
So they need to lower that
livid temple
@stoic needle right now I'd love to see that by 9.1 but I don't think they would, I doubt any rogue spec is going to see major changes in 9.1, probably just some legendary and covenant balancing. But I'd love to see Dark shadows get a change, even gloomblade get replaced by nightblade. Sub has a lot of either dead talents or boring talents that should probably be baseline, like for the last row of talents, master of shadows feels like a passive you should get while leveling, not your FINAL talent choice
fleet whale
imagine wanting nightblade back....
balmy condor
what
fleet whale
nah nightblade gave a damage amp
strange python
oh true
balmy condor
nightblade was 15% damage
fleet whale
15% more damage so you had to put it on
strange python
true true true, my bad.
slow marsh
Sin with 15% haste is going to be roughly in the same spot it is with no other changes
livid temple
It's not that I want it back, I just would like rogues to have more meaningful talents, like right now dark shadows will never be picked in its current state. Neither will gloomblade or vigor. Premed is on the border of greatness. Even Master of shadows is boring
Like tbh not gonna lie, sin gets made so much more fun because of blindside
strange python
imagine if we had an equivalent of Premed for assassination?
fleet whale
i mean nightblade would be the default pick by far if it replaced gloomblade
fleet whale
i'm pretty sure nightblade as a talent with the damage amp on it
strange python
Premed isn't taken...
fleet whale
would be better than weaponmaster
i mean you kind of get premed in torghast as sin...
it's called rupturing strike lol
stoic needle
God I would love that
stoic needle
And replace exsang with a single target vein rippers 
strange python
I've looked at some of the top sub rogues on r.io
the top one runs weaponmaster
the others run premed...
hollow escarp
I can see vein rippers being fun in raids
strange python
vein rippers?
fleet whale
yeah but that means more vanish reliance
hollow escarp
anima power in torghast
strange python
oh lol
stoic needle
Doesn't have to be tied to vanish
strange python
I normally play sub in torghast
hollow escarp
or if mobs are low enough
strange python
it's just alot easier
stoic needle
It should be a normal Ability
fleet whale
sin is actually beastly in torghast
hollow escarp
or you can fake the server and use a fast ability after vanish
stoic needle
Press button, dots go boom
fleet whale
imo it's better than sub
azure carbon
I think they just buff Exsanguinate into vein ripper, if they were to do that.
fleet whale
I hope blizz announces the new tier at blizzcon
hollow escarp
well, exsang is pretty much a scuffed vein ripper
hollow escarp
fleet whale
cause exsang came first lol
hollow escarp
yeah, I wanna know when the next tier is gonna drop so I can set my goals for this tier 
fleet whale
it's why i get triggered when people say that "Kingsbane is another Toxic Blade"
azure carbon
Yeah, thats what I mean. Since Exsang already exists makes no sense to just hard add vein ripper.
fleet whale
when Kingsbane existed before Toxic blade lol
hollow escarp
ohk
fleet whale
before, agonizing poison was in it's place
hollow escarp
yeah, after I started playing 
stoic needle
Since exsang is just really bad atm I wouldn't be opposed to giving it a rest in favor of vein rippers
fleet whale
venom rush is stronger than exsang
stoic needle
we had whispyr sim it, it's mathematically impossible for exsang to be better than alacrity
even at haste and mastery cap
which is 127% haste and mastery
hollow escarp
alacrity would go well with exsang, wouldn't it?
strange python
if exsanguinate was baseline though...
stoic needle
after a certain point of haste, exsang isn't even worth the gcd to cast it
stoic needle
idk either
fleet whale
it wasn't removed
hollow escarp
I gues it was the talent on that row
fleet whale
they should've just baselined tb though as another button
stoic needle
yeah
hollow escarp
yeah, but you can't shiv as utility now
fleet whale
so we could just keep shiv for utility
stoic needle
having to choose between damage and utility is fking awful
fleet whale
blizz likes that too much
hollow escarp
I had an awkward moment in DoS earlier where I couldn't shiv because it was already on cd
fleet whale
like cold heart for frost dks
idk why blizz seems to think that turning utility buttons into dps ones
fleet whale
is interesting gameplay
stoic needle
I had an awkward moment in DoS earlier where I couldn't shiv because it was alre...
yeah i just have to hold shiv at the beginning of top and dos now 
strange python
why do you shiv in dos and top?
fleet whale
the good news is
hollow escarp
idk how to play sin in DoS though
fleet whale
holding shiv is barely a dps loss
stoic needle
it just feels bad if you're running WPS as your only potency
hollow escarp
although, I had 10.8k dps on Hakkar as sin
fleet whale
i'm using LP as my potency
stoic needle
idk how to play sin in DoS though
dot all the things
WPS only sims 4 dps worse than LP for me in dslice
hollow escarp
yeah, but as outlaw you just pop blade flurry 
fleet whale
they are both 200 ilvl so i'm just rolling LP for now
maybe i'll swap to WPS if i'm bored
hollow escarp
sorry, 10.3k dps on Hakkar
the DK had 11.8
on our 2nd attempt on the key with outlaw I had 8k dps
both with pride and lust
phantom fire 8% of damage
I don't understand how that potion's rng works
azure carbon
Its an onhit. You have lust + Pride it will do big boy damage.
Same as Wound/Deadly/Instant poison.
hollow escarp
so that's why it did more damage on sin than outlaw?
azure carbon
Could be. Could just be blind luck. Not sure if it procs on DoT ticks.
azure carbon
Hero Damage says it does about the same on both specs.
So it probably doesn't proc with DoT ticks.
strange python
i was confused
just did a dungeon and I wasn't doing any damage and didn't have energy regeneration.
3rd boss i realized I didn't have deadly poison on 😂
weakaura now prevents that...
wary ice
assa life tbh
strange python
^ this
woeful wigeon
question poisens are they counted as weapen enchant for the covenant soulbind of nadjia exacting preparation ?? wish one is best covent now as we have unlocked 30 rows
balmy condor
question poisens are they counted as weapen enchant for the covenant soulbind ...
Poisons are not counted for enchants
They are raw buffs to your character disconnected from gear
manic matrix
isn't venthyr good with the full tree ? you get mastery + haste + a potion that last 50 to 75 seconds or you could go with the 6% vers as well, didn't play much assa in shadowlands to know if the assa potency conduits are worth more than that
stoic needle
even with the full tree it's pretty meh
manic matrix
mmmh idk having 75 sec of + 190 agility seems crazy to me
stoic needle
the problem with venthyr is that the soulbind abilities aren't reliable, and even with perfect execution and rng it's subpar
azure carbon
Venthyr is strong with the Transmog game. With the damage its not so much.
stoic needle
yep
forest swallow
what stats u guys put on zold pants leggo?
stoic needle
if your thrill seeker procs during a mechanic, you basically have a dead soulbind
manic matrix
wouldn't you play soothing shade ?
stoic needle
nadjia sims better, but yes in practice theotar is more reliable, but he still suffers from the same issue
if you have to move out of the shade, you are using a dead soulbind
livid temple
@forest swallow either haste Crit or versa
forest swallow
ok thot so ty
native marten
what conduits do i want for assassin
livid temple
STEEEEEEELLLL
native marten
?
slow marsh
Well placed steel and lethal poisons
livid temple
If you are kyrian use both, but if youre fae usually well placed steel is better than lethal poisons but sim them first just to be sure
copper lotus
sharpening stones or oils?
balmy condor
sharpening stones or oils?
Run this under your import in an advanced sim https://pastebin.com/0CnXcRR1
I would suggest stones
copper lotus
ty
@balmy condor under the custom apl section?
oh wait
you said under it
got it
native marten
@livid temple what about for pvp as kyrian? same one?
livid temple
For PvP I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly sure you keep well placed steel you just might swap poisons for The ER conduit
native marten
ER?
native marten
i am new to rogue only play boomy so im a little tarded
strange python
Use WPS and Lethal Poisons if you can.
livid temple
^^ reverberations I wasn't sure if after the nerfs it was trash or not
native marten
is kyrian still the best covenant for pvp?
strange python
no...
native marten
sad
strange python
Night Fae is much much better.
native marten
what makes it much much better
strange python
Sepsis actually does damage :D
and soulshape lets you get out of dodgy situations.
shy dust
Night Fae is much much better.
No it’s not
It’s not much much better for pvp
NF is better but not significantly
strange python
okay but in general people are talking about the cov ability
and not the soulbinds
ER is trash. Useless
Sepsis does a bit more
but not having Phial of Serenity is a big deal.
But soulshape gets you out of bad situations on top of maneuverability.
native marten
so phial is what would make kyrian worth
native marten
people in here just the other day suggested kyrian for pvp
if need be i can swap im renown 4 i just hit 60 lol
shy dust
Covevnt for rogue is not that big of a deal
NF is better yes
But it’s not like for example being Kyrian on hunter
Or kyrian arms warrior
It won’t make much of a difference
Versus you improving as a player
strange python
^ this is true
balmy condor
All within 3%
native marten
is shiv worth pressing in pve content
limber lion
Yes, press it on cooldown
limber lion
Or save in m+ if needed to soothe enrage mobs, but rarely will be the case.
balmy condor
Shiv on the other 2 specs are used as a soothe
But for sin it’s dps
So yeh, on cooldown
balmy condor
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
safe nacelle
Getting 4.0k plus DPS in dungeons now. Just a slight improvement from my 2.5k. 😮
nocturne hawk
Sounds like me raid swapping from OL to Sin. Instantly better parse and dam
stoic needle
beat an aff lock in a mists +12
80% garotte uptime vs 75% yesterday
lol
first pull of mists 📈
spice spire
stoic needle
DOS p shit with storming too
also dont worry the boomkin beat me by 400 dps overall at the end 
tidal gorge
Finally put my gear set together. If using something like skulker do you hold it to use only with vanishes when MA spec?
balmy condor
if you're using MA, you would use your on-use damage trinket during it, unless you would lose a charge because of it
stoic needle
i'm one timed DOS 12+ away from 1k io as sin 
balmy condor
jolly canyon
I heard Assassination is decent for pvp, especially rbgs, is it true?
If it is are there some guides?
grave cove
If it is are there some guides?
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofpvp/comments/kz9e54/finally_reached_21k_for_the_first_time_and_i_did/ Kekknis is our assa lord and saviour. check out his twitch too
stoic needle
It's pretty decent now since the buff
strange python
lol I was testing out my alt gear set for sin on a training dummy
really never played the spec much
that envenom opener damage
whack
well I guess more like 10 seconds after your opener 
but still
lament dove
hm, I'm wondering how MA will be with marrowed gemstone in m+, it doesn't sound bad... maybe I'll level it up after all instead of crafting dashing
lament dove
i'm one timed DOS 12+ away from 1k io as sin <:pepehands:757566347558387803>
at 1,2K I still only have a 10 timed for DoS, it's a scary place to go to with pugs:)
pliant roost
Struggling with my dps as sin. Feels like it takes forever to get ruptures up in m+, then not much time to envenom (still doing around 12s, low mobs).. How much of diff would a good weapon make? Currently on have 203s
balmy condor
not a ton
in m+ you're going to struggle for cp more than energy
but if your group is pumping, I can see how time is short
pliant roost
Thks
vale glen
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
drifting cosmos
do we want haste in m+?
or doesnt really matter just go for high ilvl items with crit
strange python
I think more crit in m+
More haste in st.
royal lantern
ilvl>everything 🙂
drifting cosmos
i see. do you shiv in aoe? if there is no prio target
drifting cosmos
felt like a lot has changed since bfa. like we only fok on 4+ targets now? makes fok so such sad skill
stoic needle
Yeah fok sucks
drifting cosmos
and do you just use ambush after sepsis finishes?
drifting cosmos
how big of deal if you forgot that
strange python
it auto puts your bars in stealth if you have that toggled
so my muti = ambush
Yes hit it, free 3-5k
stoic needle
It's the same dps to not do anything with the sepsis proc vs ambush
Because ambush sucks
Mutilate gives more potential cp and an extra chance for a poison proc which gives more energy does damage
drifting cosmos
thats good to know, cbf to tweak wa to suit for the proc
stoic needle
I would say that if you need burst for some reason, like sludgefist vuln, an add that needs to die asap, or etc, ambush. Otherwise ignore it
royal lantern
Mutilate gives more potential cp and an extra chance for a poison proc which ~~g...
just wanna say, the poison proc doesnt give energy
royal lantern
you gain energy when BLEEDS do dmg when the enemy has a poison, nothing too do with poisons themself^^
drifting cosmos
still, thanks a lot. i got some catching up to do 
loud niche
what's the best fae soulbind at 32 or 33 or whatever the cap is
strange python
the cap right now is 30
loud niche
nono
strange python
and the best soulbind is niya
loud niche
i mean at max
strange python
the margin is only by like 200 dps
you should just pick whatever you want to play though
stoic needle
Combat log machine broke
warm parcel
Its right there in the damage section but not in casts
stoic needle
Blizz' own combat logging doesn't track shiv
It's a known bug and the wcl people say it's on Blizzard to fix it
paper cosmos
Guys, hi all. I'm very new in pve assa, but can you tell please is there some macross or weakaura that can change your mutilate spell to ambush when you get a proc?
plain thistle
Guys, hi all. I'm very new in pve assa, but can you tell please is there some ma...
you cant do that with in game macro, because thats a script
paper cosmos
But is it possible in some other legal wave?
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
plain thistle
but I would recomend just using a second keybind, no need for a addon to do that
paper cosmos
It's just more ez)
safe nacelle
Has anyone played around with Exsanguinate? I keep seeing everywhere that it's not viable but one of the problems I keep running into is everything getting bursted down while my dots are still catching up in dungeons.
oblique flare
it's bad, no good, bad
strange python
Alacrity is 10000x better
safe nacelle
Gotcha, thanks fam.
strange python
!GUIDE
prisma monolithBOT
iron orchid
You need double daggers
snow arch
In theory, exsanguinate sounds great to use on a full set of dots plus vanish with MA 🤷
storm onyx
Pool energy and cps before shiv, least you will get 2 envenoms fir sure
More crit we will get, 3 envenoms will get easier
unreal parcel
Yeah im getting two most of the time; very rare for me to get 1 if snd or rup need a refresh
shadow helm
NIYAS BURZZ?
strange python
yes
placid beacon
Does Serrated Bone Spike count towards Doomblade?
manic harness
@unreal parcel that's not the way to do it anymore according to @sudden brook
sudden brook
huh
manic harness
We had this discussion like 2 days ago I think
I mentioned wanting 3x Envenom during TB
and you were like
naw
sudden brook
i ve never made a single comment on sin rogue
this entire expansion
in regards to how to play it optimally
sudden brook
love u too budy
hollow zephyr
What’s the best talents for raiding