#assassination
spice spire
Small dps 
stoic needle
Amazing lol
iron orchid
@stoic needle impressions ? x)
stoic needle
What are your thoughts on vigor vs MFD?
Really good man, I learned a bit
Your garotte uptime is better than mine
It's like never sitting off cooldown for you
And you use vendetta on cd. I guess for some reason I got into my head that if you can't just focus on your vendetta target you should save it for something else later but I think that's losing me vendetta casts
brittle pawn
i fucking hate mfd
stoic needle
I love MFD
brittle pawn
i don't like anything you have to snipe
stoic needle
Next time I do a key I will just full send it every time it's off cd
Well you don't really have to snipe for MFD to be good
brittle pawn
i'd just feel shitty if i mfd something and then it's the last one to die
iron orchid
And you use vendetta on cd. I guess for some reason I got into my head that if y...
see, And i still got it on every boss
stoic needle
Yeah I was surprised about that
iron orchid
Spamming keys is da way
stoic needle
I guess you have to go full ape mode to keep up with the boomkin and hunter 
iron orchid
I prefer tyrannical spires
stoic needle
Yeah for sure
The sprint at the beginning of pulls to get garotte up faster... That's genius
balmy condor
what are we doing?
stoic needle
Watching dei stream high m+
stoic needle
stoic needle
Yes ofc just starting
I'm learning lots of tips for the keys I'm never going to get invited to 
iron orchid
SUCH FUN
bright girder
what do we craft zoldyck on
stoic needle
Pantaloons
bright girder
TY !
stray ivy
i been watching sin people do m+, it's not that bad
stoic needle
It's better than sub
fleet whale
#subisdying
bright girder
lol
mossy sable
Might be a noob question but if I have 4cp and there is still a stack of garrote on my target do I mutilate and overcap or garrote for the single CP?
fleet whale
you never mut at 4 cps
and you only have to garrote when it's in its pandemic window
mossy sable
I'm coming from Outlaw so I am more or less learning the spec
fleet whale
otherwise you cast your finishers at 4 cps
mossy sable
Ok gotcha
stoic needle
Might be a noob question but if I have 4cp and there is still a stack of garrote...
There's nothing wrong with overwriting the garotte with a new one
Unless it was from stealth or vanish
You can also shiv or sepsis for that last cp
mossy sable
I am Venthyr right now so I only have shiv sadly
stoic needle
Rip
mossy sable
Yeah
stoic needle
Who the fuck designed that ability
mossy sable
lol
unkempt ginkgo
Is MA good for raiding?
stoic needle
Is MA good for raiding?
It's worse than zoldyck
mossy sable
I have before
mossy sable
If they got rid of the 2nd GCD
strange python
like how CP back in the day were on the actual TARGET
mossy sable
It would feel a HELL of a lot better
unkempt ginkgo
It's worse than zoldyck
is it significant? I see some top parses with MA
unkempt ginkgo
or is it boss specific
stoic needle
is it significant? I see some top parses with MA
Yes it is significant
mossy sable
But also hate the abilitys
stoic needle
The only reason you bring a sin rogue is for zoldyck execute. With any other legendary you are just a worse sub rogue
mossy sable
The teleport is kinda useless on outlaw except in a few situations
stoic needle
Those top parses are there because they are geared, not because MA is good for sin
mossy sable
The only reason you bring a sin rogue is for zoldyck execute. With any other leg...
Ok but like
Why bring a rogue at all
Or hell
Why bring a melee
stoic needle
Because of the zoldyck execute lol
Sin rogues do some of the highest dps during the execute phase of any class and it's significant
stoic needle
If you aren't using zoldyck you're kinda inting your raid
stoic needle
Yeah I was like that for a bit
Just focus on getting 100% uptime on garotte and rupture and SND
That's the foundation
mossy sable
I played a small amount of Sin in legion but it was easier with essences and such
stoic needle
As close to 100% as possible
mossy sable
My raid lead doesn't like me swapping specs much but Law is not working out for me well
I am just above our DH tank on dmg
unkempt ginkgo
thanks i will make zoldyck
stoic needle
95%+ gar rup and snd uptime, using vanish and vendetta and shiv on CD and not dying is guaranteed at least 80% parse
Honestly dude
Being venthyr isn't helping
My damage was shit as venthyr
stoic needle
All within 2% on a patchwerk sim with no mechanics
How many times has your thrill seeker procced and you get absolutely nothing from it
stoic needle
Yep
mossy sable
Or my fav
stoic needle
At that point, it's almost like not having a soulbind at all
mossy sable
Being stunned out of Flah
Flag
Or like having it go off during the dance
On Council
stoic needle
Me too man
mossy sable
And teleport for a melee dps has only a few uses
stoic needle
There's like 4 people in this channel who used to be venthyr
mossy sable
Atleast Mald has some raid bonus
stoic needle
It's more ok for law and sub because their specs do decent base damage
But venthyr is extra bad for sin. You need all the dps you can get
stoic needle
Venthyr is not at all reliable
stoic needle
Right?
Man not even a month and a half ago I was in this very channel talking about how nice it must be to stack flag and thrill seeker
Which is a dps loss to even attempt
mossy sable
Have we seen any conduit/covenent changes yet?
stoic needle
Even if you succeed it's still a dps loss
urban shadow
if you're struggling to outpace a dh tank though I'd recon you will get more value out of focusing on improving gameplay rather than switching covenants
mossy sable
Or just class
stoic needle
No
mossy sable
lol
stoic needle
It's a sum of all the things, queue
mossy sable
if you're struggling to outpace a dh tank though I'd recon you will get more val...
Thats why I am looking at other specs
stoic needle
Hopefully they might announce some tuning at blizzcon
mossy sable
A lot of my issues have been going on since raid release
And I have been aware of them
Yet made no progress fixing them
stoic needle
I will say that after I switched to sin I had much more brain power to worry about raid mechanics with
Guess I'm a boomer
urban shadow
does anything top outlaw's apm?
mossy sable
Outlaw is a lot to keep up with for me
And my bran just can't dop it
I can do it better in M+ but when you add raid mechanics my dps tanks
gleaming sorrel
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
Also I just like the dot playstyle better
stoic needle
I don't mind outlaw, but every time I get a 5 buff and then wipe or die it makes me want to respec
The highs are high but the lows are also low
I prefer the consistency of sin
That way I know that if my dps is shit it's all on me
iron orchid
Working my way up there
honest needle
whats secondary stats for assasination
if i wanna switch from outlaw to sin is ilvl still most important or is secondary stats better for sin ??
whole dew
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
Ilvl is always most important
whole dew
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
stoic needle
Don't take an ilvl downgrade for more haste
honest needle
is sin pulling ahead for raiding ?
stoic needle
Not really
honest needle
bis leggo is the ring right master assasin ?
honest needle
i like sin betetr cause its easier to play
is ma lego just as good or close ?
cause i cant craft both
whole dew
NF is best covenant for assassin?
stoic needle
I think emphasis should be put on 'okay'
balmy condor
yeah, maybe
stoic needle
You really should craft zoldyck if you're serious about playing sin
whole dew
zoldyck legs with stats : haste crit
stoic needle
I don't think so considering the execute is the whole reason sin is viable right now
whole dew
?
hoary kernel
Anyone have a good UI for assasination? Came from WoTLK private servers and now I pretty much have to watch rupture, garrote and SnD.
balmy condor
Anyone have a good UI for assasination? Came from WoTLK private servers and now ...
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
hoary kernel
thanks mate
balmy condor
I don't think so considering the execute is the whole reason sin is viable right...
not really. That's what made it viable before the buff
yes the niche for sin is execute, and it smashes there
but if you play MA on sin, you're keeping up with sub
you don't need zoldyck to exist as a reason to play sin anymore
it's just good enough on it's own tbh
stoic needle
Oh really?
balmy condor
yes zoldyck is slightly better, yes it's leaning into the niche, all of that remains true
stoic needle
I didn't know that you can keep up with sub with MA as sin
balmy condor
but when you're like 2-3% away from sub in sims, it's really just fine
frozen jasper
So is now the time to try DS for raiding maybe?
balmy condor
So is now the time to try DS for raiding maybe?
sullen lintel
Do rupture and garrote ignore armor?
frozen jasper
lmao okay
balmy condor
I didn't know that you can keep up with sub with MA as sin
it keeps up pretty much just as well as zoldyck would
balmy condor
Do rupture and garrote ignore armor?
yes
stoic needle
Was that true before the last few rounds of aura buffs as well?
hoary kernel
wait did i fuck up by making dashing scoundrel? Is zoldyck probably better?
stoic needle
The last time I looked on bloodmallet it was noticeably behind
hoary kernel
didnt know those legendaries were better back to torghast it is
frozen jasper
Zoldyck is better overall DS sims higher for pure ST
stoic needle
I'd say that since dashing isn't very good on aoe/cleave and aoe is one of sin's strong points you should try to craft zoldyck
balmy condor
Was that true before the last few rounds of aura buffs as well?
yeah, MA isn't bad at all
balmy condor
The last time I looked on bloodmallet it was noticeably behind
not gonna lie, I haven't opened bloodmallet in like 3 years 
frozen jasper
Whispyr you don’t think maybe on hungering DS would also be good ?
I mean I like zold, just to try something else I guess
balmy condor
well the question is, which DS are we talking about, if we're talking dashing, then no. And if we're talking deeper strat, then also no
frozen jasper
Dashing is what I’m talking about
balmy condor
I can't really find a reason to craft dashing
frozen jasper
I am searching for a reason that’s why I’m asking lol
But I seems like there is none
balmy condor
like MA I get because you have it for other specs, zold is obviously zold. But then you get dashing, which is like within 15 dps of zold, but you need uptime and shit, and it's worse in cleave/aoe
and if you're already crafting a sin legendary, then why not just zold
and if you have zold then why dashing?
stoic needle
I wonder if zoldyck will amp the doomblade bleed
mossy sable
and if you have zold then why dashing?
Experimentation
balmy condor
like there's not any reason imo to craft either dashing, nor doomblade
they're both just..... not good
balmy condor
Experimentation
if you want to craft for fun then obviously go craft for fun, go knock yourself out
stoic needle
Maim/mangle + doomblade + zoldyck 📈
frozen jasper
You are right, just wanna fuck around with something else than zold tho just to try it out
mossy sable
Like trying anything other than Celerity on law
frozen jasper
Maim/mangle + doomblade + zoldyck 📈
Stonks
oblique kiln
best talents for denatherius?
oblique kiln
no cleave for adds?
balmy condor
multi-dot them in p2 if they live long enough
rapid stratus
For sin PVP, doomblade or MA?
stoic needle
The most important parts of the fight are ST
balmy condor
but denathrius is literally a meaningless fight until phase 3
phase 3 is the only part that matters honestly
stoic needle
For sin PVP, doomblade or MA?
MA for 2s and solo in RBGs, doomblade for teamfights and 3s
oblique kiln
oh we are getting owned by the small adds on the first phase H
wondered if going crimson temp would help
plain thistle
if a assa needs to hit p1 denath adds something is wrong with your raid group
dusky vault
wondered if going crimson temp would help
That's not your job
If your having add trouble on P1 go outlaw or sub.
Alternatively just get the rest of your raid that is 10x better equipped to deal with the adds to do their job properly
rapid stratus
MA for 2s and solo in RBGs, doomblade for teamfights and 3s
ty
stoic needle
If you're having trouble with p1 denathrius it's your boomkin and hunter's fault not yours
You going CT isn't going to help because it's garbage for burst
mossy sable
What leggo goes well for Sin PvP?
Other than Zold I have Deathly Shadows and my Law one
gleaming eagle
tired thistle
Other than making a shift macro of some sort there is no way to make blinside easier to use when it procs is there?
dusky vault
Just bind ambush to another key. You don't want to ambush out of stealth as assa anyway so it shouldn't really be bound anywhere except when running blindside.
tired thistle
Yeah just trying to get away from using 2 keybinds is all
balmy condor
Other than making a shift macro of some sort there is no way to make blinside ea...
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
balmy condor
it's super janky
by way of just trying to cast mutilate, and then ambush, and then mutilate, and ambush, over and over and over
so you'll get some times where it won't work 100% of the time
but usually the free ambushes will trigger first
on opener you'll ambush at least once I assume
echo cargo
would you recommend it or no
balmy condor
no
it'll do its job
but I recommend just getting 2 keybinds
sin doesn't have that many keybinds to begin with
coarse vault
does anyone know if Cloak can immune Huntmaster's Sinseeker? Thanks in advance
balmy condor
you can cloak the dot, not the hit
coarse vault
can you evasion the hit?
dusky vault
No
dusky vault
You will probably still get 1 shot through cheat death I think.
minor otter
Is there any reason why we would not use the Ambush from a blindside proc and instead use Mutilate? There isn't right?
coarse vault
ok thanks for info
coarse vault
you guys wouldn't happen to know if Pally BoP immunes the Huntsman damage?
balmy condor
Do i use mutilate if 2 targets then 3 fok?
mutilate on 3, fok on 4
balmy condor
Is there any reason why we would not use the Ambush from a blindside proc and in...
the only situation you use ambush is specifically WHEN YOU DO have a blindside proc
balmy condor
you guys wouldn't happen to know if Pally BoP immunes the Huntsman damage?
think that works
pliant roost
mutilate on 3, fok on 4
Oh right thanks. Fok seem bit weak rn so makes sense
coarse vault
Cheers!
wide bolt
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
wide bolt
the opener for MA on ravenholdt says mut > SnD do you do that even if you dont have the amount of CP's you normally finisher at?
just to get it rolling?
wide bolt
Yea i mean i could see it being a feel thing
dusky vault
Super close on Sims but opener logic is hard because it's such a small part of a fight
wide bolt
definitely can feel like your taking forever to build with bad luck on crits
so you just sit on Vend and vanish cause your spamming your muts to get the ball rolling
dusky vault
I think the Sims cast covenant ability from stealth which feels bad but actually makes no difference for assa
Mut > SnD > Mut when using MA talent sounds good from a thought perspective but no idea
I think if you SnD at 2/3 early you need to refresh it during vendetta which feels bad but you also have it up for slightly longer and get out rupture and garrote slightly earlier so it likely works out to be about even
balmy condor
I think the Sims cast covenant ability from stealth which feels bad but actually...
only for sepsis
dusky vault
Oh good to know. Is that just for the mastery buff?
stoic needle
I actually kinda like gar sepsis shiv snd vend mut rup as an opener
dusky vault
Surely Shiv that early is bad or does putting it on cd earlier make up for it?
stoic needle
Why is shiv early bad
Shiv buffing sepsis is one of the best things you can do
You have vendetta up immediately after, and your deadly poisons which are the majority of your damage are ticking
And after rupture is up you can go directly into envenoming
I'd have to look at a log and see how long it takes to get my first shiv off but I wouldn't be surprised if that opener gives me an extra
dusky vault
True. Just my thinking that sepsis does fuck all damage and that you want rupture up to be benefitting from shiv and have cp to be envenom spamming during shiv
stoic needle
Actually, shiv sepsis does 12k+ dmg
stoic needle
Por que
balmy condor
you don't cast shiv until rupture is up
stoic needle
But why
balmy condor
because casting rupture in shiv is bad
fallow otter
because casting rupture in shiv is bad
pretty sure i saw sim doing this
might need a tweak
fallow otter
lemme find see if im crazy
balmy condor
most likely some jank combination taking prio
balmy condor
eh, I guess its if,rupture or sepsis
and not rupture and sepsis
so seems okay in that case then
balmy condor
I looked into opener stuff yesterday for seli, and moving sepsis around didn't really change anything
moving rupture around didn't change anything
balmy condor
yeah I saw it
fallow otter
ah ye
dusky vault
Is there anyway to force Sims to cast a specific spell first to test openers?
balmy condor
Is there anyway to force Sims to cast a specific spell first to test openers?
you'd have to edit apl to make that a priority specifically
openers in general are kind of whatever
any gain I've found in openers are in the magnitude of like 5 dps
which isn't worth mentioning
dusky vault
Yeah I know I gotta eek out that extra 0.1% dps on my opener to make up for the 10% I dropped during the fight
stoic needle
I just kinda like the idea of using sepsis and shiv to build cp to get up our maintenance buffs instead of a mutilate
So maybe like gar mut snd sepsis shiv rup so less of shiv is wasted getting up rupture
Just 1 GCD then instead of several
dusky vault
@stoic needle is this with subt or ma?
stoic needle
Subterfuge
balmy condor
if you makes you feel better, It seemed like about 10-11 dps gain with subterfuge to go gar mut snd sepsis shiv rup vendetta
stoic needle
balmy condor
I couldn't find anything better than that 2cp rupture
stoic needle
10-11 dps
stoic needle
Really?
dusky vault
0.2% 
stoic needle
I like the way it flows, it's like checking off all the boxes asap and getting right into the env spam
strange python
what stealth ability do we use from sepsis?
dusky vault
Yeah 2cp rupture does make me want to have a shower
stoic needle
Ambush, or nothing, or garotte/cheap in m+ for the cc
balmy condor
what stealth ability do we use from sepsis?
most likely nothing
buoyant mauve
alternatively, what if they made blindside work like cata's murderous intent except it's ambush instead of backstab so we don't have to hope for procs off mut and instead get a consistent execute+cp builder to use after 35% instead?
buoyant mauve
I miss dfa ;-;
stoic needle
alternatively, what if they made blindside work like cata's murderous intent exc...
That would be cool
Anything that's less rng and more consistent is a yes from me dawg
buoyant mauve
Anything that's less rng and more consistent is a yes from me dawg
that's the reason I stay away from outlaw, or at least I try to. I miss com ;-;
torpid spoke
Yeah but the apm is fun
stoic needle
Why not both
torpid spoke
The amount of effort vs damage sucks though
strange python
is there a way to keep details from resetting when you vanish?
buoyant mauve
is there a way to keep details from resetting when you vanish?
could try to clear it and then just set it to overall (I assume you are testing on a dummy)
strange python
its doing it in raid too
also
does mortanis reduce bleed damage or something
my garrote and rupture did like 5% of my damage
150 dps between them
stoic needle
Skeletons don't have blood, silly
strange python
thats a good point
torpid spoke
What time do you guys usually refresh ur shit
stoic needle
Pandemic
fallow otter
What time do you guys usually refresh ur shit
i armor kit in pandemic window to get more duration
toxic tusk
Just had hateful chain drop and holy shit it helps.
fallow otter
my 226 skulkers and sins combo sim better than using a chain 
i bet i get it straight away
sludge is close to ded
3% wipe
low girder
i armor kit in pandemic window to get more duration
Seriously though can we add pandemic to these fucking consumables lol
fallow otter
Seriously though can we add pandemic to these fucking consumables lol
haha no 🙂
low girder
fallow otter
flasks do
low girder
Yeah everything should
fallow otter
trooo
stoic needle
my 226 skulkers and sins combo sim better than using a chain <:ionsadhours:48253...
Even if it's a dps loss I'd do it just to stop using skulker's and stop using double on use
fallow otter
im a slave to numbers
stoic needle
Gonna see if I can get a H sludge kill tonight
fallow otter
-0.1% is -0.1%
stoic needle
Probably won't get shit but who knows
I'll take the -.01% and do some scuffed opener to make up for it
fallow otter
ill swap skulkers out purely coz it bugs out
stone epoch
when it works
strange python
I fucking did mythic hungering last night
and skulkers failed to go off
EVERY
FUCKING
TIME
strange python
nah
stoic needle
Smh hungering destroyer wyd with all that ass
strange python
it wasn't even the hitbox thing
stoic needle
Out here double cheeked up
strange python
I was deliberately using it when we were running back in from consume
still
nothing
not one
stoic needle
I'm considering using the 1.5min conquest trinket just so I don't have to use it anymore
strange python
I'll always be playing my rogue
just my alt isn't really an "alt" atm
coz y'know
dks are too fucking good
fallow otter
isnt it 2min
stoic needle
1.5
Skrry
It's 1 min
Kinda pog tbh
Can the weekly event chest have any kind of loot in it? Could I get a trinket?
I swear to God if I get a 3rd skulker's I'm unsubbing
fallow otter
oh
well
im gonna use that on sludge now
for some reason i had in my head that its 2min
wtf
stoic needle
That and anima battery would be pretty nice actually
The question is do I get that, a ring, or a helmet with my conquest this week
Idk
stoic needle
Wait why is it different
stoic needle
Oh I see
balmy condor
don't believe so
faint harness
why is that a thing
man this game is so weird
sub has both bleeds and poisons
but nah
but sin/outlaw can use deathly
mkay
empty cradle
Nah he means the other specs can use it
empty cradle
Doesn't rupture finality buff work in sin too
wide bolt
believe it does
i had fionality on by accident when i first swapped to sin to mess around awhile ago
and it was consuming and generating the finality buff
dudnt check the numbers though so not sure not that it matters
low girder
It does. Celerity did too for both the other specs until they broke it specifically. Seems kinda weird that apparently zoldyck doesn't either.
faint harness
I mean sin/sub doesnt have adrenaline rush so it sort of makes sense
but zoldyck not working is just weird
low girder
It should just be broken entirely lol. eyes prot pal legendary
low girder
They changed the tooltip for deathly though right. Sub only has 3 specifics now
Ye it wouldn't lol
plush delta
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
plush delta
!fu
strange python
in 9.0.5/9.1
we'll just get one that procs extra damage on backstabs during SoD
kek
I really don't know why I just put that out there into the universe
fleet whale
zold not working for sub and outlaw is not that weird imo
zold was a sin specific legion leggo... and sin has been the only rogue spec to have any sort of form of execute
azure carbon
I really don't know why I just put that out there into the universe
If this happens, I blame you.
frail gate
Anyone do any sin pvp? Like healer dps 2s? Tryna figure out best lego
azure carbon
Pikaboo always runs the mutilate one.
strange python
yeah you just pump everything into the biggest envenom possible
obsidian willow
How can I know which spec (sin or outlaw) to use for which boss in CN raid? For min-max purposes.
strange python
How can I know which spec (sin or outlaw) to use for which boss in CN raid? For ...
min maxing, outlaw
obsidian willow
My guild is gonna do mythic huntsman later and idk with spec (Sin or Outlaw) will be the most efficient for that fight. I can play both.
obsidian willow
min maxing, outlaw
I see
short hamlet
we'll just get one that procs extra damage on backstabs during SoD
I've been summoned by this text
azure carbon
My guild is gonna do mythic huntsman later and idk with spec (Sin or Outlaw) wil...
Outlaw for sure. Sin is viable on the fight though, imo. If you're better at Sin I think that's fine. The logs aren't terribly far apart side from some of the PI shenanigans at the top of the combat ladder.
kindred wind
what total % of buff did sin receive so far?
obsidian willow
18%
azure carbon
So 1.05x1.08x1.05= ~19.1%
slow marsh
Can someone help me out and see how I can improve my performance overall? We were having raid-wide lag tonight so some things could be that but I still feel I should be able to do more. I've improved significantly week over week but would love feedback if possible
fallow otter
So 1.05x1.08x1.05= ~19.1%
i thought every class has an aura % modifier on their abilities and they just modify it afaik
so lets say
it started off at -20%
it then became -15% then -7% and then -2%
thats my understanding of it
but thats just taking information from wowhead
@balmy condor do you remember seeing the same?
i feel like @fleet anchor might know
fallow otter
ahh ok so im not imagining it but it is multiplicative
fleet anchor
Since launch it’s been around 19%
But yeah it’s cumulative since the buffs are always relative
ornate gazelle
Does anyone know how or if we're able to sim a conduit off the pvp vendor?
balmy condor
You can unlock conduit ranks
balmy condor
Yes
ornate gazelle
Damn
rancid spade
sin still bad for M+?
balmy condor
Worse than outlaw
azure carbon
Less worse than outlaw than it was before, according to Sims after the blade flurry / Rush bug fix. But it's a DoT spec which will always kinda feel bad in M+ until you get to higher keys.
fleet whale
it's decent enough in M+ though
azure carbon
Yeah, having played it a little bit, I think it feels better than Sub. Still think it's a ton more work for less result than Outlaw tho.
manic harness
Other than Sire, do you feel like Sin is better than Outlaw for any mythic raid bosses?
azure carbon
I think hungering and xymox are probably Sin fights too.
Hard to say though, not that many logs.
Shriek maybe a sin fight too, but hard to say. I think a lot of people not that great at Sin tried it out, lol. Highest log count by far, but also probably it's worse fight by parse, which seems kinda wack. ST it's more or less the same as sub and you lose less DPS compared to Sub and outlaw to stuff like echoing.
paper dawn
So I just started playing sin again since bfa. Still love the bleed style spec! In m+ how important is slice and dice to keep up? Aoe normally fan of knives and crimson tempest for the finisher? Garrote off cool down I’m guessing. Just looking for a little insight thanks!
balmy condor
So I just started playing sin again since bfa. Still love the bleed style spec! ...
Slice on up to 5 targets
Fan to generate on 4+ targets, maintain crimson tempest
Garrote and rupture on everything that will live long enough
paper dawn
So I don’t need to spam crimson tempest at 5cp? Just use it before it falls back off?
sick scarab
finally i did layer 8 floor 18 solo.. had some issues wiht super milions hp bosses.. any got same problems ?
balmy condor
So I don’t need to spam crimson tempest at 5cp? Just use it before it falls bac...
You can spam it at uh... 7+?
Like heavy heavy aoe
paper dawn
Got ya thanks!
dusky vault
For council should we dotting any of the other bosses for energy regen as assa?
sick scarab
y
stoic needle
just 1 imo
dusky vault
Just garrote or rupture too?
stoic needle
Good question, I'm not 100% sure
Council is one of my worst fights so I'd like to know lol
balmy condor
I wouldn’t rupture personally
dusky vault
Yeah gut feel says the loss of cp wouldn't be worth rupturing. But in theory 3 garrotes should be a dps gain
lament dove
keep in mind that venomous wounds only works on poisoned targets, so you have to keep them poisoned as well in that case
limber lion
Just ST, no point dotting the others.
sick scarab
mm strange i am simming dhashing vs zoldyck it give me same dps in slice and dice scenario..
and ofc a bit more in single targhet..
sick scarab
sec
slow marsh
Zoldyck is the reason to go sin right now afaik. The execute is what makes it good
sick scarab
y but i want to craftg second leggo.. and dunno if go MA or dashing..
vestal wren
assassination is now fairly close to outlaw/sub in output on st
vestal wren
so its not a terrible choice anymore, even tho also not a very convincing one outside of the mentioned execute
you could see if mfd sims higher in ds
lament dove
if you plan on pvp-ing some, craft MA
vestal wren
i am not sure if ma is that good of a craft atm
slow marsh
If you want to pvp in sin craft doomblade
vestal wren
it probably remains popular in pvp, but for m+ i can see first strike making it less appealing
sick scarab
i will not pvp for sure stoipped in tbc 🙂
lament dove
tbh I would only craft it for pvp as well, not for anything else
stoic needle
ma is really good for sin in pvp
vestal wren
but even for pvp, it highly depends if burst is relevant
sick scarab
i go dashing then?
vestal wren
i am not sure what role assassination fills in pvp, so i can't say
vestal wren
i think zoldy is the best "overall" pick
slow marsh
He means for m+
sick scarab
i mean for m+ and raids
sick scarab
i already have zoldyck.. as second legendary dunno what to craft
slow marsh
Unless they continue to buff it for no reason at this point
sick scarab
got already celerity ring for utlaw but i ate outlaw so..
sick scarab
ehehe
vestal wren
ma has some niche uses and is still fairly strong in m+
so if you want a 3rd legendary you can go for it
slow marsh
The real question is will Kleia 5% flat crit be worth it vs burrs + kora cuz I'm seriously considering a late jump on the NF bandwagon
vestal wren
reality is you don't rly need more than the signature legendary items on all 3 specs (celerity for outlaw, finality on subtlety, zoldy on assassination). The rest is just for min/maxing on specific fights
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
lament dove
I have maxed zoldyck, lvl3 celerity and lvl2 MA, but since I myself don't pvp either, I think I will craft dashing this week as well:P
I was thinking about going full outlaw, but last week I started to enjoy the hell out of assa again so outlaw lost again...
vestal wren
first strike is rly potent on all 3 specs, thats why NF becomes interessting next week
lament dove
it sound completely silly tbh... but we'll see
slow marsh
!fuu
So literally NF is just better in all content for sin? And there's no reason to be sitting as Kyrian still?
vestal wren
yes and no
slow marsh
I see a couple areas where kyrian beats NF but overall it seems like NF is just better. Unless I'm just reading it wrong ?
vestal wren
the diffrence between NF/kyrian is not higher than it was for the entire xpac, just that NF is now in the lead. But people did play NF a lot even tho this diffrence existed
the only part that NF is outstanding is m+ with first strike that is for all specs quite a big gain. Assassination probably could get away with kyrian too still
hammer is rly good for assassination and somewhat competes with first strike (even tho first strike is slightly better)
lament dove
you don't lose your progress with your old covenant and it's pretty easy to change back so if you have the grit to level the other covenant you can just go for it
once you have both farmed out it just takes waiting for the next weekly reset to change back and forth
slow marsh
Yeah I noticed hammer is super good for m+ and only 3 dps less than first strike. My main question is for raid if Kleia will stand up to Burrs or if the damage is going to outweigh the flat 5% crit
vestal wren
no
burrs does more damage
but again, the diffence between nf/kyrian relative to each other stays the same just that nf is now in the lead
what i want to say is, that people played nf for progress and the entire xpac now and did still perform well/competitive while having the same "disadvantage" in pure output
obsidian willow
how much haste are you guys running on?
vestal wren
so its up to you if you want to invest time to switch covenant for that benefits.
Its probably easier to make the decision on sub/outlaw because first strike is more significant ahead for them
obsidian willow
i have about 700 haste but i still feel clunky as hell
vestal wren
assassination is just very low paced, possibly a bit to low
high haste won't compensate too much
obsidian willow
sad
iron orchid
@vestal wren btw @stoic needle and myself simmed with 5% haste proc chance upon healing from niya's tree last night, and it says it is a ~50 dps gain compared to burrs in Dungeon Slice, is this a kind of sim trap, or do you think this could be a legit build ?
stoic needle
I have around 23% haste and sin absolutely does not feel clunky
iron orchid
In ST you'd always feel a bit starved
stoic needle
I don't call not being GCD locked starved. To me, starved means not being able to keep up your maintenance dots + snd and I never feel that way
Having to wait a second or two for energy to mut really isn't that bad
iron orchid
Energy still does not replenish that fast and you could take a sip of coffee, come back and still not overcap
That's what i mean by "a bit starved"
vestal wren
assassination has not a lot of min/max potential atm
because you don't have enough energy to change your ability use significantly
the "flow" in bfa was better because of the lucid essence
iron orchid
Well, yeah
stoic needle
That's fair I guess
vestal wren
and totally absurd to the point that you ignored your energy bar entirely at the end of the xpac with corruption
stoic needle
I just don't like the slow = automatically clunky association
It would be nice if we hit harder to compensate for being slow but it is what it is
iron orchid
That's probably because if you've played one of the other two specs this expac, it feels considerably different
stoic needle
It definitely does
iron orchid
Thus clunkier
stoic needle
To me clunky has negative connotations like you can't even perform your basic rotation properly because of mechanical issues
Like shiv being a soothe and damage cd at the same time - that is clunky
The base rotation, not so much
vestal wren
its possible that the spec balance becomes similar to bfa with the next raid/introduction of the new borrowed power systems
stoic needle
I'm very interested to see what they announce at blizzcon
vestal wren
as much of a meme as it is assassination does scale better with those systems
(i refer to people using the word "scaling" in the wrong context)
for rogue in general, our performance in the next raid highly depends on what we get from the new systems
gloomy rover
why does niya sim the best with all traits unlocked? If we cant interrupt we dont get anything from the last trait
iron orchid
why does niya sim the best with all traits unlocked? If we cant interrupt we don...
You wouldn't go for the second potency conduit but more likely go for burrs, which adds some dps
and apparently you could play with herbs in aoe situation, i guess if you have the recuperator conduit slotted in
tender fjord
I don’t even get why “slow” would be negative
Dps difference with sub on st is minimal, but you have a way more relaxed playstyle
No minigames of lining up cds, making sure cd’s don’t overlap with mechanics etc
You just do your 45apm thing and enjoy
Outlaw is nice for a single fight or m+ in my opinion, but that button mashing gets quick tiresome after a while imo
sick scarab
i definetley like more the pace of assa
the style than outlaw or sub.. outlaw to me is terrible . sub so so..
lament dove
slow doesn't mean bad, but energy starved is another matter
in fact I like that I don't have to smash my keyboard like with outlaw, but I don't know how the hell can you play MfD in m+, the start of packs is just, well, clunky...
sick scarab
when blizz will get rid of our energyu starving problem we will also no more clunky feeling
yep it is all about energy.. that make us feel clunky,, energy starvation and the SND usage for assa is bad
dont fit in it
we need to be more fluent.. atm we are not due to that imho..
tender fjord
slow doesn't mean bad, but energy starved is another matter
in fact I like that ...
I usually run vigor and subterfuge. If you start with 4 garrottes and have snd up and running ur pretty much set
But then again, I do 13 and 14 keys usually
sick scarab
me too
lament dove
yes, that's what I do as well, I run Vigor
tender fjord
So can be completely different if your at higher lvls
sick scarab
we should havbe stuff like premeditaion talent or the outlawo conduit for assa
instead we have to manage snd with no energy that is the "clunkyness feeling"
let us start wiht snd passive up .. problem almost solved.. more flunet openers etc etc
we will see i have hopes in 9.1
for this tier we are set trhis way
iron orchid
@stoic needle https://clips.twitch.tv/WanderingUninterestedLorisSuperVinlin I clipped this, cos I found that huge af x)
sick scarab
nice one
dei
what trinket are you running ?
and you do 3 garrote followed by ? i am curious
vestal wren
why does niya sim the best with all traits unlocked? If we cant interrupt we don...
the 30 renown trait burrs is very strong
iron orchid
and you do 3 garrote followed by ? i am curious
Here i went 4 garrotes FoK Rupture then some FoK into Rupture/CT Spamming
Vanished for 3 more subterfuge garrotes
sick scarab
kk
iron orchid
what trinket are you running ?
226 skulkers, 226 phial
sick scarab
trinket i use calice.. but dunno ..
for aoe
nie phial of putrification you got 🙂 give me plsù
median mango
I like the way it flows, it's like checking off all the boxes asap and getting r...
My Sims recommend sepsis mut snd vendetta garrote shiv rupture vanish envenom and so on. Actually feels pretty good for me
latent escarp
Does raidbots calculate zold in somehow?
vestal wren
not sure whats the question
the simulation does not ignore any of the legendary powers if thats your concern
latent escarp
Trying out on dummy and ran a Sim with raidbuffs off^^ can't get to it by some margin
And zold is no good on dummy ^^
vestal wren
the dummy never hits execute range ^^
latent escarp
Yeah
vestal wren
koryan will be very good on dummy too because you will always stay in the high % hp
neverless i assume you wanted to ask about the "target dummy" simulation?
the target dummy simulation has this metrics:
latent escarp
Oh fudge I never knew.... Lol thanks
tawdry pawn
how max renown affects convenants for sin?
which will be better
I know its almost no difference prob but...
vestal wren
how max renown affects convenants for sin?
its the same storry for all 3 specs.
NF becomes slightly ahead of Kyrian but maybe not high enough to switch
next weeks renown unlock could be a good reason to switch to NF given first strike seems very strong in m+
tawdry pawn
I mean im nf since beggining tbh
vestal wren
the change in soulbinds is just that you switch to burrs as your 2nd conduit
there isn't much else
azure fox
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
tulip nacelle
sim it
rotund oak
fuu im gonna try dashing scroundel instead of zoldycks,made up my mind
(and im not going fae, whatever u say lul)
royal lantern
like
nobody cares what covenant you go lol
and if you wanna go the legendary that is worse in most situations, thats on you
rotund oak
u only play assa for specific fights anyway,like,there are not many scenarios u do play assa
and the fae was a poke,none asked u too if u care or not
lean fossil
@rotund oak im going sin full time lol, with the boomies, aff, mm, and outlaw rogues to carry me on big add fights like sun king lol
shadow helm
double sharpening rite
mental wing
Well i got Rank 7 world huntsman logs with sub condus
rotund oak
<@363351758765948929> im going sin full time lol, with the boomies, aff, mm, and...
the loot is all that matters lol 😛
lean fossil
@rotund oak you know whats up lol
rancid anvil
I'm just coming back from not playing since the start of BFA. Which guides would people recommend I use? Wowhead, ravenholt, or iv. I see all three pinned
rotund oak
wowhead is pretty solid but they tend to copy or take notes from the boys on rogue discord anyway
for sims herodamage is best for dungeon slice,ST is pretty much ok for anything u use
strange python
may i ask, would you guys say assa is more viable in 3s than sub now due to the sustain?
pliant apex
sin viable everywhere, fuck sub
cerulean siren
I play Assa, just for the fact that I think it's a more fun build to play with. Can't stand the "stab, stab, run away" play style of Sub.
halcyon grail
I like internal bleeding in PvP but I still feel sub is THE PvP spec
unique plume
I just can't stop playing Assa because of that rush I get when you align all CDs and u get that big fat Poison Bomb
And another one!
And everything just goes BOOM mega dots
And your screen is all DMG txt and u feel like u climaxed
cerulean siren
Sub is by far the most effective build, for PvP atm. But Assa has its place. Pair it with one of the classes that can heal and DPS (Ret Pala atm), and you can have loads of fun in 2s, setting up full on "lockdowns" on your opponents while your partner nukes them.
But it might be harder to reach higher rating as Assa, since I guess the skillcap of Assa is quite high atm, because of the lack of burst, and the fact that you'll have to rely on your partner for most of the dmg and play more defensive with your CDs, setting up the fight in a more dangerous way (for yourself) than you would do as Sub (since Sub has a good burst window to play around). I'm not sure actually.. feels like Assa still has a lot to show us in this expack, since non have really played it at higher ratings thus far. Assa can soak dmg pretty well tho, so there's that 🙂
night cypress
dont let fkn pikaboo tempt you with pvp assassination
stoic needle
There's people at 2.3k with sin right now
And lack of burst? Wut? How is 2 back to back 15k envenoms, 7.5k system shock, 6k internal bleeding, plus 4s of garotte rupture and poison critting a lack of burst? And a 20k sepsis if you still have it and shiv?
ornate lake
are the 15k envenoms with nightstalker talent?
ornate lake
O.o
stoic needle
You guys should watch kekknis stream
ornate lake
So 5p envenoms hit for 15!?!
ornate lake
k time to follow that guy
stoic needle
He's in the pvp channel talking all the time
What sub has over sin is control. Sin has better pressure and a higher burst but you can only really do it once. Doesn't matter if you get the right setup and wipe your kill target from existence though
At the current moment nobody except like a vengeance dh or guardian druid can survive that kind of burst with no defensives
Also someone in here got a 30k envenom with no nightstalker with echoing reprimand and death from above
spice spire
Tanks in arenas 
stoic needle
stoic needle
That DOS clip was
Herbs is kind of funny, it's bis for this one week before we get first strike
Unless I'm missing something I don't see why you'd run it over FS after it's unlocked. Maybe for raid in a later tier if we get a serious council fight where you have multiple boss targets at once and no new adds to cheese with FS. It might be good on huntsman? Idk
broken flame
6% Mythic Huntsman Wipe 😭 https://puu.sh/HdG1t/731742a9cd.png
After that we killed it and I died, so I got a 15 parse instead 🙃
willow oracle
Assa feels amazing on Huntsman
All this execute time on Bears and the ability to dot Barghest 😙
spice spire
Our guild separates barghast and Huntsman so no cleave for the longest phase
ornate lake
Our guild separates barghast and Huntsman so no cleave for the longest phase <:...
I know that feeling 
spice spire
乃ㄩㄒ 爪ㄚ 卩卂尺丂乇， 乃尺ㄖㄒ卄乇尺
gray hazel
Can assassination do well in M+? I have been struggling to do well in outlaw
vestal wren
assassination won't beat outlaw in m+ if thats the question
vestal wren
that depends what viable means for you
it is somewhere in the range of subtlety in terms of output
but subtlety is atm also not very popular in m+
strange python
Hello i have a question which legendary should i craft? Because from logs i could say that Zoldyck is the best but when i sim my Rog its says me that Dashing Scoundrel is the best so what should i craft?
raw cedar
Dashing is pure single target
toxic tusk
I need to craft dashing as well.
vestal wren
zoldy is the best allround pick
stoic needle
There aren't many pure single target fights in this raid. Dashing benefits from constant boss uptime which you don't really have
toxic tusk
Do any of you have experience using the macabre sheet music? Is there a pattern to where they spawn/something that makes it easier to see in a raid?
stoic needle
It's garbage
toxic tusk
Lady whatsherface is fairly close to single target
stoic needle
It's worse than other trinkets unless you get every dancer
toxic tusk
Can you switch out legendariws during combat? Like throw on Zoldyck once the boss is at 30?
toxic tusk
Yeah. Hateful chain is killing it
stoic needle
And lady inerva is a cleave fight for sure
toxic tusk
Cleave? As melee?
Apart from switching to the tanky boy for like 6 seconds it seems pretty single there.
stoic needle
Yes, the tanks should be dragging inerva next to the adds
toxic tusk
Maybe we do it different
stoic needle
Well they last a bit longer than 6 seconds on heroic and mythic lol
toxic tusk
Oh well yeah.
stoic needle
Sin pumps on inerva
toxic tusk
Sorry, I’m on normal.
Our guild started heroic but also want to clear normal as well.
We’re overgearwd for normal, I think.
stoic needle
You can garotte the small one, and drop a full Rupture+garotte on the large one and DPS it for a bit and then switch back to inerva really well
@iron orchid so what do you think about vigor vs MFD for keys?
stoic needle
toxic tusk
I need to do some simming.
stoic needle
I've been using MFD all this time, I'll have to give vigor a shot
toxic tusk
I got 213 bracers and pawn is telling me my 190s are better by 16 percent. I know pawn can’t be trusted but yeah.
I’ve been using vigor exclusively
stoic needle
I just love the MFD + SnD Prepull or MFD+CT or MFD+ envenom mid pull
But that extra energy from ||rupture sniping|| gets wasted a lot
toxic tusk
You care if I throw you an add? I already did but it’s more or less a heads up.
stoic needle
I got 213 bracers and pawn is telling me my 190s are better by 16 percent. I kno...
Yeah you can be 100% sure that's wrong haha
Yeah it's np
slow marsh
Am I correct in that you never ambush unless it's blindsid proc and opener?
Even with subterfuge?
ornate lake
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
stoic needle
Only blindside proc or sepsis
spice spire
Am I correct in that you never ambush unless it's blindsid proc and opener?
Don’t do ambush on opener
toxic tusk
I’m a recent non ambusher. Dps goes up when you use mutilate instead.
slow marsh
I figured due to muti giving more cp on crit. Ty
toxic tusk
That and it can trigger blindside
strange python
Don’t Ambush on opener?
First 5 seconds of a pull I’m doing 20k or so.
granted my echoing is also most of that damage but still
with MA, I find in ST that just that is like more dps to do it that way.
slow marsh
It has to do with ambush giving 3cp on crit and muti giving 4.
spice spire
The damage amount is great on muti as well but is largely negligible
median mango
Do any of you have experience using the macabre sheet music? Is there a pattern ...
It's by far my strongest trinket atm and I hate it so much
Especially when shit is clumped and you literally can't see the dancers
So you wiggle around and pray you hit things
I just want any trinket that deals close to the same damage for me and I'll delete it in a heartbeat
strange python
Phial and insignia?
toxic sparrow
Phial and Dreadfire probably
balmy condor
Phial dreadfire
steep hamlet
is burrs better than double potency ?
steep hamlet
im guessing you still want wps for your one potency ?
steep hamlet
probs not a bad shout
frozen jasper
Yeah you can be 100% sure that's wrong haha
yo if i import stat weights from raidbots to pawn is that more exact or do i just sim top gear over and over again if i get new stuff ? ^^
honest silo
Top gear
stoic needle
importing raidbots stat weights to pawn is the exact same end result as doing top gear, but with more work
just uninstall pawn tbqh
honest silo
Stat weights are pretty pointless as every gear swap will alter them
frozen jasper
i usually use pawn to see ilvl from other chars quick and importing stat weights comes with it, but ill guess ill just top gear everytime then
ty
spice spire
Pawn does have nice applications. Gear upgrades aren’t it
storm onyx
i sim at every item upgrade and import new weights.
thats the only way to keep pawn revelant
then its accurate
royal lantern
^ if you do that, pawn is somewhat usefull
but otherwhise its crap
and like, you can also just sim your gear when you drop stuff
balmy condor
Thanks for sharing
steep hamlet
does anyone know if raidbots takes into account zoldyck execute ?
balmy condor
it does if you use a fight type that doesn't have a fixed hp
rough scaffold
I think I broke torghats. Anyone ever get over 500K dmg?
My Sepsis somhow nuked for 7 million lol
spice spire
Nah, the sepsis build let’s you do over 1mill on bosses
Especially if that boss spawns adds
rough scaffold
Oh nice one!
balmy condor
the sepsis one can go crazy
spice spire
Highest I’ve done is the 1mill dps over 10 seconds
balmy condor
and vein rippers too
spice spire
Both 
rough scaffold
Yeah I had the 'sepsis jumps' and 'sepsis does 15% hp dmg' thought i might have broken somthing lol
misty holly
Yeah but necro gets a torghast power where bone spikes have 500 yard range. because that's useful.
buoyant mauve
I'd use top gear more often if I didn't have to wait for the queue everytime, wasn't there a an addon in legion to export data to simc that would help you easily do gear compare and then simc would just run each combo for you?
balmy condor
I'd use top gear more often if I didn't have to wait for the queue everytime, wa...
yes, simpermut
not sure if that's still being maintained
but you'd have to sim it locally on your pc
rough scaffold
Guys my hunter wife is getting really pissed that my DPS like X4 hers when we run torghast lol
strange python
if you get the one where your combo generators do 150% after using a finisher
and you echoing with the 3 god talents for that
I've made echoing hit for 500k about 10 times in a minute.
buoyant mauve
"Addon is Deprecated."
balmy condor
the time you spend waiting for it to sim locally
is spent waiting in queue for raidbots
shut garnet
this channel alive again 
good vibes
balmy condor
so
rough scaffold
balmy condor
spice spire
I'd use top gear more often if I didn't have to wait for the queue everytime, wa...
If you have a homie with Premium you can send them ur simc for checking as well
buoyant mauve
the time you spend waiting for it to sim locally
I have a decent enough cpu to make it go by pretty quick
balmy condor
yeah you'd think so
not quite as quick as raidbots
I have a ryzen 7 3800x
trust me on this one
raidbots is hyperspeed
compared to local sims
buoyant mauve
maybe it's the time I play, but my queue always feels like it's forever, especially when I'm just trying to compare just 2 items
stoic needle
It's worth the $3 a month for no queue
dim tide
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz