assassination

[misty hemlock]

So its 9. Mutilate 10. Shiv 11. Mutilate until 4+?

[marble hemlock]

Well, you don't wanna end up with 3cp after shiv

[feral basin]

Why would I start with Sepsis from stealth? rather than mutilate with MA talented

[marble hemlock]

Over capping cp from shiv is a non issue

[feral basin]

Is it just to get the dot rolling for more uses during the fight?

[marble hemlock]

Dunno why exactly it sims higher, but last time I checked it did /shrug

[balmy condor]

it doesn't really net more casts if you delay by 3 seconds, but it's just not a gain otherwise

I'll add it to the list

[misty hemlock]

Well yes, but then the 11. becomes irrelevant when you add until 3+ on 9., since those 3+ and the cp from shiv will already put you at 4+. I guess you can remove 11. then?

[marble hemlock]

it largely doesnt matter whether you mut>snd>sepsis or sepsis>snd>mut, other than getting more sepsis ticks into MA

[balmy condor]

opener logic in general doesn't really matter tbh

like if anything, we're talking gains of like 10 dps at the end of all of this

[marble hemlock]

yeah, the problem with the "best" opener in terms of dps, is that oftentimes it kinda plays like shit

[balmy condor]

true

sepsis from stealth feels awful to me personally

[marble hemlock]

i.e. low cp SNDs/Ruptures in opener leading to having to refresh during shiv/vendetta

feels bad

but it sims higher

:/

[misty hemlock]

Also, let's be honest it's not like a slightly less optimal opener is gonna fuck over your parsing on a 6-8 minute boss

[balmy condor]

that's the point, yeh

[marble hemlock]

its always been an issue with assa, honestly, as its nigh impossible to get an APL done that perfectly pools for shiv/tb whenever possible

theres quite a few more conditional maintenance things going on with it

compared to other specs

[balmy condor]

current apl is actually quite good at pooling

[marble hemlock]

gameplay that "feels" right and efficient, thats not being modeled accurately enough to see whether that feeling is an actual gain or not

and as comfortability plays a much larger role in your dps performance

its usually the way we suggest rotational priorities

its why i hate that sepsis opener for MA 😄

[balmy condor]

it only envenoms on vendetta/shiv, or if you're about 30 energy from cap

which handles most pooling issues automatically

[marble hemlock]

like, the main concern i have for the MA opener is having to refresh snd mid shiv

[feral basin]

I've just been messing with it and while I agree, feels bad using sepsis from stealth. It actually lined up nicely to land a 5 cp finisher.

[eternal portal]

is there a custom command to sim zoldyck vs other legendarys? strait up patchwork doesnt work, patchwerk 20% execute obvs. does but is there a middleground?

[balmy condor]

not sure what the question is

zoldyck sims fine

[feral basin]

But feels so wrong

[balmy condor]

patchwerk goes from 100% hp to 0%

and zoldyck will benefit as intended during the last 30%

are you seeing a bug with how it's implemented?

[feral basin]

@marble hemlock In your rotation post its optimal to use a low CP SnD just to get it on and rolling, rather than going to 5cp and getting max duration?

[marble hemlock]

that seems to perform better, yes.

i dont like it, personally

as it leads to forced refreshes during shiv/vendetta burst

and as whispyr said already, the differences between the "perfect" opener and a more comfortable one are very minor

[eternal portal]

iam simming MA vs zoldyck, patchwerk...thought zoldyck should be stronger over 5 mins but MA sims 100dps better for me

[vestal wren]

i think i remember testing subtlety like earlier refreshes with assassination and it was not a damage win

[balmy condor]

that happens sometimes, yeah

[vestal wren]

so i would not say its ideal

[balmy condor]

the thing to keep in mind when comparing legendaries is that a lot of them are pretty close when compared in a vacuum. Your character is not that though, you're limited to your off pieces, current stats, etc

so while it's rare, MA will sim higher, even on 5 minutes

[eternal portal]

@balmy condor thank you for the insight

[vestal wren]

the thing about legendary items is that the power level always depends on your gear and the replacement gear in the slot you have. This is why certain legendary combinations can be higher/lower

[balmy condor]

[hallow summit]

zoldyck on legs or feet?

[balmy condor]

legs usually

[vestal wren]

towards "impossible apl". The majority i found for "impossible" things was perfect alignment with everything but that's just a consequence from not everything aligning well by default and the trade off you always need to take to either hold a cd or lose the alignment. This applies in game as well as in simulations.

[hollow summit]

Hello I’m new to wow and was wondering if anyone could give me some pointers

[balmy condor]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[balmy condor]

is a good place to start

[hollow summit]

Thank you

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[balmy condor]

my pleasure, if anything in there is confusing feel free to come back and ask

[hallow summit]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[hardy crypt]

is the exsanguinate build still viable on assa?

i used to love it with high haste levels from corruptions

[balmy condor]

no

exsang is the worst talent in that row

[hardy crypt]

oof

so it's mostly envenom damage?

in details

[balmy condor]

poison/envenom/auto attack atm

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cqS7pJDbxjYtZKuieMAsYh

looks a little somethin like that

[marble hemlock]

yeah for sure. i myself oftentimes delay shiv a few GCDs to get a better alignment for triple envenoms. whether or not thats actually better, i have no fucking idea 😄

[iron orchid]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1693jpBHMzhcnWtG#fight=2&type=damage-done&source=14
Yesterday, i got pretty lucky on the envenom crits during Heroic shriekwing, which made it hit harder than melee huh

First time i got something like that this expansion

[balmy condor]

happens fairly regularly

with a lil bit of luck, shouldn't be bad

[iron orchid]

I guess I am just pretty unlucky then

[tender fjord]

In raid without deeper strategem should we generally use a finisher at 4+ or only at 5 cp?

[balmy condor]

4+

[tender fjord]

Solid, ty

[hardy crypt]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[tender sable]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wckjV2HxLdDzGp8m/
Yesterday I tried to always sync sepsis/shiv/vendetta/trinket
But I’m afraid I got good looking logs just because of niya trait.
Can you suggest what have to be improved in short term at least?

[dusky umbra]

is CT worth it over PB in general? 3-4 targets

[balmy condor]

CT is marginally better than PB on 2+ targets as long as it's sustained

on 3-4, CT is better

[lofty yarrow]

Was hoping assa beats outlaw with the current buffs but it seems not yet 😦

[lament dove]

also just my humble opinion based on my experience: yes
in m+ overall dmg is always better with CT for me, and on bosses PB is so rng, many times it's only like 1%

[iron orchid]

I can confirm that

[dusky umbra]

i was asking that because i plan to for example in CN

go between sub and sin for some bosses

so i have to pick either CT or PB

and since PB can affect more than one target (i think) i was wondering if it would be better to always have it

[silver fog]

well placed steel or lethal poisons (nijya tools: burrs) for raids? and as for m+, would it be better to run burrs or poison on niya? wowhead and IV guides contradict each other

[iron orchid]

For now, I think you'd play with burrs in any situation

I tested tthat out last night and it seems to be performing really well

[silver fog]

what about potency conduit choice?

[ornate raptor]

Sim it i believe

[dusky umbra]

was checking the openers in IV, why mutilate over ambush if we have subterfuge?

[ornate raptor]

For me well placed steel simmed better then lethal

[tender sable]

wps+traps sims better for ST, wps+katar+poison sims slightly better for DS

[ornate raptor]

If i read the chats its about the combo points you get

[iron orchid]

oh ok

[iron orchid]

Looks weird to me tho

Imma sim it out too

[tender sable]

katar is strong conduit for m+

I think that's why

[frozen jasper]

MA opener is mut-snd-mut-rup-gar ... right?

[ornate raptor]

The lego or the talent?

[frozen jasper]

Talent but does it matter ?

[ornate raptor]

I dunno 🤷‍♂️

[tender sable]

with talent its possible to only get 3 cp from 1st mut

[ornate raptor]

My rotation is like that just different sequence

[tender sable]

I went mut-gar-rup-mut-mut-snd-burst

[ornate raptor]

If it crits 4

[ornate raptor]

Yeah thats my rotation too

[frozen jasper]

Yeah i think whispyr said it doesnt matter that much in which order you put it

[ornate raptor]

Yeah doesn’t really

Its honestly what ever makes your rotation easier

Aslong u keep it all up

[balmy condor]

WPS and LP are about equal, I personally run WPS because it gives me a little more burst on stuff like sludge pillars

[frozen jasper]

Wanna try ma today in raid, i always run subt cause im lazy

[balmy condor]

it's a combo point thing, kinda complicated

basically on opener getting 4cp from a mut crit sometimes is better than a 3cp ambush crit

and that's true even without blindside

blindside makes that difference even bigger because it gives mutilate some extra damage by way of sometimes proccing a free ambush

as a general rule, you don't ever want to ambush unless you have a blindside proc

[rough grove]

For pure single target, would Doomblade be better than Dashing Scoundrel?

[balmy condor]

no

but you wouldn't craft either

you still go zoldyck

[balmy condor]

yes, or mut snd mut gar rup, both are fine

[rough grove]

Ahhh thank you!

[balmy condor]

@ornate raptor talent/legendary does not matter. if you have the legendary, you especially do a mut-finish-mut-finish, with the talent you might get super unlucky and end up at 2cp even with the crit buff, in which case, give it another mutilate into a finish

[frozen jasper]

Thank you, appreciate it !

[balmy condor]

my pleasure

it's what I'm here for :P

[iron orchid]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mzWwWcfijN9awBhT5VAaze

[rough grove]

Thanks Whispyr 😄 I appreciate you

[iron orchid]

got burrs simming higher in DS anyways

[balmy condor]

slight nit-pick, but I actually find it's a strong conduit for aoe specifically, not m+. M+ especially this tier with prideful has a lot of single target happening, and we actually mut until we get into heavy aoe, so unless you're getting consistently big pulls like a HoA with double packs and stuff, katar isn't actually that good. LP is a very strong choice still, even in aoe, and provides you with single target, so I would generally advise that. WPS can also be very good for that extra prio

its definitely not a "bad" choice

but I wouldn't consider it the go-to

you can just slot LP/WPS and do everything optimally, or very very close to it

[frozen jasper]

Do i vanish in opener for enven crit chance or how do i use vanish with ma ?

[tender sable]

yeah that's a reasonable assumption which I think hardly implemented in sims
I was going off the last week sims and I will be back to this investigation next week with korayn trait available
25% crit is delicious on aoe but I dont think I can yet to forfeit dedicated soulbind for outlaw
as much as I find assa easier outlaw is doing more damage even with non-optimal piloting like I do

[balmy condor]

yes, you would vanish after your inital setup etc for envenom/muts

[frozen jasper]

Alright got it 👍🏻

[balmy condor]

do you think something is wrong with katar implementation?

[marble hemlock]

tbf

katar giving 5% fok crit

makes fokking quite a bit smoother

in terms of cp gen, that is

[balmy condor]

about 5% smoother

[marble hemlock]

thats not how it works

[balmy condor]

shhhshshshshshh

[marble hemlock]

going from 50% crit to 100% crit doesnt make things 50% smoother okay

OKAY?

[balmy condor]

whatever math is hard

[marble hemlock]

na math

i get it

[balmy condor]

it's 3:14 am here

that's a math thing

[strange python]

west coast

[tender sable]

I assume that DS is general scenario which is not heavily weighted towards single target and small groups of adds like on live dungeons (again, in general)

[balmy condor]

funny you say that, considering that's the main complaint people have with DS

[tender sable]

O_O

I might take it other way around then

[balmy condor]

I think DS is a good cross-section of general dungeon pulls

there was a change to the pack spawning

which resulted in this new break-down

[marble hemlock]

50% boss

[balmy condor]

not 50% boss

50% 1 target

the deaths of adds are slightly randomized too

[marble hemlock]

boss = 1t

[balmy condor]

so at the end of every pack, you're getting a couple extra seconds of 1 target as well

[marble hemlock]

true i guess

[vestal wren]

boss falls under 1t too yes

i assume

[marble hemlock]

how much of the 1t is actual boss?

[balmy condor]

2 minutes

of the 6 minutes

[vestal wren]

^

so 33% is guaranteed

[marble hemlock]

so 66%

bit less, maybe 60

[balmy condor]

EU math

[marble hemlock]

thats a yikes tho

thats not bolstering dps! :p

esp since assa is a prime spec for equalizing mob hp

[balmy condor]

yeah I guess so

but basically the way to read that chart

is a little weird

cause even those 7 target pulls

will have time spent on 6,5,4,3,2 and 1 target

as the mobs die out

it's only a couple seconds apart

but a "7 target" time spent isn't just raw 7 target pull

[hardy crypt]

is there a macro for blindside?

[balmy condor]

!bs

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[hardy crypt]

umm

[balmy condor]

we get that question a fair amount :P

[strange python]

why didnt sin rogue get vein rippers on a leggo

[iron orchid]

Because we didn't want to rely more on the vanish timer ?

[frozen jasper]

I mean they could have implemented it as an extra finisher or like whispyr has it in his rework idea, as an talent which substitutes enven for a more bleedy setup

[iron orchid]

I agree that it would be nice

[frozen jasper]

Like not that vein rippers does the whole dmg of remaining bleeds but does a few seconds as instant dmg that would be cool

[frozen jasper]

Yeah but I guess we don’t get nice things here lol

[unreal parcel]

Ok just some clarification here on shiv real quick. Use on CD, don't worry about the waste of cp, and dont delay for vend + MA correct?

[balmy condor]

correct

[unreal parcel]

Copy that. Plan ahead to get as much envenoms in the shiv window or don't worry about it?

[balmy condor]

you want to pool a little for it

but it's not a big deal if you don't

[unreal parcel]

Gotcha. And last; its ok to refresh something in the window if need be huh

[balmy condor]

you should ideally be abusing the pandemic timers to avoid that, but it's better to refresh rather than letting it drop

[unreal parcel]

You the best whisp

[balmy condor]

I try

[formal ermine]

So LP or WPS with niya burrs for m+?

[balmy condor]

either is fine

[hardy crypt]

i must have fucked something up

but it doesn't work for me

[balmy condor]

what's it doing

[hardy crypt]

nvm im dumb

i didn't replace it

lmao

if back and feet are both 220 ilvl, which should i go for with the leggo?

(similar stats)

[ornate gazelle]

You think vendetta on two pillars is better than sub's symbols on every pillar for mythic Sludgefist?

[balmy condor]

probably, but that's not really a fair comparison

sub just has more on-demand burst than sin

[willow oracle]

You're also comparing Vendetta on two pillars to Symbols on every pillar and SB on 2 pillars

[ornate gazelle]

True

And the uptime every time you run out, and Vendetta on pull

I'm curious after buffs if sin is better for that fight now

[balmy condor]

probably not

[drifting cloud]

almost definetly not

you lose alot of lego value aswell because of the nature of the fight

since the boss is only below 30% for barely more than 1min in a 5:30 fight

[grim hornet]

so only real niche for assassination is denathrius mm?

[balmy condor]

It’s better than sub when you need to move, or have light target cleave like on inerva, huntsman, hungering maybe with the movement

But ATM, a good sub player or a good outlaw players should be able to beat a good sin player

[quasi scroll]

sorry if this is a repost but:

in case anybody else needs poisoned katar

[balmy condor]

What about that

Oh

[quasi scroll]

it's up on WQ in Rev

at least for me, I dunno if everybody gets the same ones

[balmy condor]

Well good thing we basically never use katar

[quasi scroll]

not even fort weeks?

[balmy condor]

Nah

LP/WPS is usually Just better

You could consider it on heavy aoe like if you’re doing big HoA pulls

But you’re just losing a lot of prideful/boss damage taking Katar

[quasi scroll]

oh well

[balmy condor]

We don’t even use fok until 4 targets

[quasi scroll]

guess there's no recreating the SS/EB days

[balmy condor]

So cleave is out of the question as well

The idea is there for Katar, it’s just a little too weak to be used regularly

Fok in general is pretty tragically bad

[digital orchid]

Whisp u still think good sin player vs sub vs outlaw is on almost raid fights and m+ is sin worst pick?

If talking about dps not utility

[balmy condor]

Sin can hold its own in raids, and depending on dungeon can beat sub. Kinda slept on tbh

Sub is slightly better single target, 6+ target and burst

[quasi scroll]

I've never really cared much about the "borrowed power" debate but some of the BFA->SL stuff is just silly, like on my bear, Layered Mane. They took away the azerite trait called Layered Mane and then you have to grind it back out in SL to get the same effect, also called Layered Mane

[balmy condor]

But it gets stomped by sin in cleave

[drifting cloud]

sin > sub on sire pretty easily now I guess

[balmy condor]

Like absolutely smashed

[drifting cloud]

its just not a huge margin

where alot of people will actually swap after 2months

[balmy condor]

Even before the 8% buff, sin was stronger than sub in 2-5 targets

So it’s chugging now

Outlaw is still better

[digital orchid]

But for cleave is best way outlaw so generaly if u want big single pick sub and if u want cleave u pick outlaw

[balmy condor]

But it can go toe to toe with sub

[balmy condor]

Yeah that’ll generally still be the case

[digital orchid]

Hope for next 5% 🤣

[balmy condor]

Sin isn’t dethroning anyone

It’s just competitive

[digital orchid]

Ye

[quasi scroll]

Were the problems of assassin not obvious during beta? Seems like if a spec needs to be buffed 18% within 2 months of launch that should have been caught sooner?

[balmy condor]

For the sake of sub, I’m hoping that theres not a buff

[drifting cloud]

oh they definetly were its just blizz

when xpac is delayed the 3rd spec of a pure dps class isnt high on their lists you know

and its not like you were gonna get huge changes before launch anyways, youre probably not getting any in 9.1 aswell

[digital orchid]

And for scaling sin scaling best its just my opinion. So with better ilvl and stats sin gonna be huge

[grim hornet]

ye but to my eyes if assassination is not winning in sustained ST damage vs outlaw or sub its just weird

i mean the spec is just designed for that isnt it?

[drifting cloud]

not really thats sub if anything

and when sub and assa are close that just means sub dies

[grim hornet]

Sub is st burst windows isnt it?

cause u are crap out of dance

[balmy condor]

It can be an opinion, but it’s still wrong

[drifting cloud]

I mean youre dancing alot its just how the spec plays

and the "burst" isnt really that good compared to half the other classes in the game

[spice spire]

Did someone use the cursed S word this early in the morning?

[digital orchid]

@balmy condor so u hope for some rework?

[abstract arch]

Hey are there any opener information with different setups? cant find any guide with it

[balmy condor]

I think sin currently is fine

[balmy condor]

The pve ones are in the guides, for #pvp I would try to get some info from well, #pvp

Pvp is a lot more word of mouth feelycraft

[spice spire]

Sin felt much better last night

Getting the final niya row + buff, and playing like less of a brain dead monkey helps

[balmy condor]

Is there things I want changed? Yes, 95% of which is the talent tree

But if it doesn’t get changed

I ain’t mad

Sin as a core has worked the same way for almost a decade, and it will continue to work for another decade if need be

There’s no large difference in gameplay from legion, to bfa, to now

Kingsbane/slice being the only real changes between the three

[abstract arch]

hmm, thanks @balmy condor i see that in icy veins now. Tho question, it says we use multilate in the opener with subterfuge, why dont we use ambush?

[balmy condor]

Ambush doesn’t give as many combo points

[digital orchid]

Ye true but on bfa u got buffs for garrot and for m+ was sick

[balmy condor]

We ambush with blindside procs, and that’s it

[warm parcel]

RE: sludge.
Sub may have its burst for every pillar but that burst is weak

Assas isnt

Especially if you happen to rock ma and/or kyrian

[abstract arch]

`oh i see, thanks

[balmy condor]

Well this is true of sub as well

I don’t actually think sin has more burst

[warm parcel]

Sure but even going all out dark/kyrian sub just is midtier

Gets completely dumpstered by any real burst spec in game

[balmy condor]

That’s true of sin as well

I think vendetta + shiv isn’t even close to comparable to like a combust

[warm parcel]

Granted Ive not looked at this past proge, but back then assa woulda been a better pick

Maybe Ill see when I get to sludge on my rogue

[balmy condor]

Yeah

Im on the fence about it honestly

Like I see the potential technically being there

But I don’t think sin’s burst is that much higher than sub

[warm parcel]

Yea could be its just the battle of noodles

Maybe Ill ask for PI to make assa seem better

[balmy condor]

Did you know that if you have 6 priests, you could have permanent PI?

[warm parcel]

[storm onyx]

İt isnt, shadow blades burts is higher, though Vendetta is 2 mins compared to 3 mins cd. Asssinationn is more flat distributed dmg

[warm parcel]

From my anecdotal, no

[balmy condor]

Yeah I would disagree with that as well

[warm parcel]

But again, not too many people even thought of dark shadow for sludge

[balmy condor]

Sub is a very sustained spec atm

[warm parcel]

Rogue is just widldy underplayed atm

Hunger has like what 100 parses for sin

Thats nothing when some specs are in the 20-30k

[storm onyx]

Yea, dances and symbol are practically up all time

Shadows blades were designed to give higher peak afaik though

[balmy condor]

Is that the design

[warm parcel]

Thats kinda the deal with your classes major cds

[storm onyx]

Has that changed?

[warm parcel]

Blades just been a weak 3 min cd always

So its just bad when you compare it to likes of incarn

[balmy condor]

I mean, like weak said, it’s a major cd, but it’s also pretty trash

So yes, sure, but it’s still trash

[warm parcel]

Iirc in bfa it was as low as 3% or so to use blades.
Now it is a little higher so its better than what it used to be.

Still kinda leaves you wanting for some more

[digital orchid]

Its kind sad,if compare monk with 1 dps spec again 3 rogue specs monk win everywhere ,on pvp he got more comb. Rogue can play on high only rmp, m+ rogue got better utility but dps losing alot and same is on raid 😷 or is just my wrong opinion? Who knows

[balmy condor]

Rogue utility is nonexistent in pve atm

[digital orchid]

Alot of stuns and control on m+ its like more safe way

[balmy condor]

Other classes can stun fairly good as well, monks can even do it Aoe

We have 1 target lockdown better than most, and that’s barely good

[lost igloo]

Shroud bot in m+

[vestal wren]

shadow blades was even changed from legion to bfa for the better

[digital orchid]

Ye but better is burst the add insted of stun him

[vestal wren]

the main issue with blades is still the duration/cd. cut it in 1/2 or 1/3 and it wouldn't feel bad

[balmy condor]

Shroud isn’t even that common anymore

Compared to legion/bfa, every dungeon would have at least 1, If not more

But like, what are shrouding in sanguine

Or spires

Or theatre

[lost igloo]

Only really shrouding on HoA tbh

[balmy condor]

You’re skipping like 1 mob, maybe 1 annoying pack

[quasi ledge]

Basically only useful in HoA and maybe Mists depending if you have a priest or other CC that doesn't put you in combat

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[lost igloo]

Yeah, that seems to be kind of it

[tender sable]

but if not rogue then which class to play? 🤔

[lost igloo]

NW maaayybe

[quasi ledge]

There is a Sanguine skip, but Shroud isn't long enough for it :p

[digital orchid]

Ye but still better pick monk for more dps and take invis pot

Or dk

[lost igloo]

Yeah, ring of peace kind of shits on any utility rogues can bring

[marble hemlock]

crippling

people often forget about the perma kite utility we give

vs having to expend CDs like treants or ring to keep mobs off of ya

the reason ring/treants are so good atm, is that in a meta with flamepatch/starfall/wildspirits, keeping mobs in place for a few seconds longer is actually more valuable than being able to easily kite mobs

due to them being actual DPS CDs

[strange python]

yea sin still big fat underplayed

the only one I've even see in raid was one that's in my guild and he was benched last week

keeping the seat warm along with our poor demo lock

[quaint siren]

Sanguine skip, HoA skip, SoA shroud for better coordination of pull, ToP skipping the one big ugly guy

And thats it comparing to bfa/legion .. shrouds are not that valuable rn

[strange python]

I've seen groups asking people to bring invis potions so they dont have to bring a rogue if they want shroud skip

lol

[ornate gazelle]

Does count the odds work with sin ambush? I feel like with blindside it could proc pretty damn often and give roll the bones buffs lol. but idk if it works or not

[quaint siren]

Well there is also engineering thing on belt for invis

[quaint siren]

Lol give it a try to

[balmy condor]

Yes it does

And it’s trash

[ornate gazelle]

Oh @balmy condor hahaha

Maybe if it didn't only last 5 seconds

[simple kettle]

I was in heroic and mythic raid yesterday with the assassination, and I see really big problems in assassination. First you need to swap talents between every fight, second we have another over time ability in the pack (Snd) so keeping garrote rupture and snd up makes Shiv-Envenom window a little short (and keeping up 3 over-time abilities makes the desync easier), and I think assa needs a Cleave finisher more than subterfuging garrotes and 5 cp ruptures. (This is only my POV not trying to arguing)

[balmy condor]

What are you chasing talents for

Blindside subt vigor alac pb takes you through the entire raid

With no issues

[feral basin]

Yeah only thing i changed talents for was trash between suberfurge and MA

[simple kettle]

But in pure single target fights the buffed envenom with master assassin is better

[feral basin]

maybe CT over PB for trash too

Other than that it was same build Whispyr said

[simple kettle]

So you think is better to go subterfuge all the raid?

[balmy condor]

Subterfuge is like 0.2% worse

[feral basin]

No I said I switched on trash to Subterfuge

[simple kettle]

Ill try tonight in mythic, but i still thinking that the only way that u can do decent cleave dmg is if u vanish and reapply garrote.

[strange python]

making your raid drop you a talent tome after every boss to save 0.2%

[maiden tapir]

Anyone have a clue have i can get like a trinket 2 work in a castsequence?

[feral basin]

Or use your own 😄

[simple kettle]

type the entire name of the trinket

#showtooltip
/castsequence Vendetta, Memory of Past Sins;

btw in single target fight with subterfuge the opener should be like ambush, garrote, rupture, snd, and all the vendetta trinket shiv envenoms?

[balmy condor]

Gar mut snd

[simple kettle]

and use vanish to reapply garrote right?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[simple kettle]

okey ill try tonight thank u guys 🙂

[magic vine]

works been really busy for me for the last few weeks so i haven't really had the time to mess with it, but outside of some skips the best shroud usage is being able to adjust where prideful hits

like in depths the prideful happens like a couple pulls before the second boss, but if you do some shroud fuckery you can have it happen right before

[pine grove]

Our guild unironically does this.

[spice spire]

[ornate gazelle]

Do you let Garrote tick down fully if it's empowered by Subterfuge?

[pine grove]

I believe you should try to do so, yes.

[rocky ruin]

Yes full tick and then reapply with vanish if you can

[agile phoenix]

Any 6k sims for assa?

I need a good sim to compare some things

[wary ice]

you can refresh with vanish at any point in pandemic, we dont have to let it finish anymore because we're not double garroting in single target anymore.

[ashen anchor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tMJ5u25G5Ru6R9K1FnVMTE Would this do?

[kind kiln]

See a lot of sin rogues being NF, have I cucked myself going kyrian?🤔

[gusty mirage]

You could always sim NF vs Kyrian and see for yourself

But no, covenants are within an acceptable % difference dps wise. You’re fine

Kyrian and night fae are both our strongest options

[spice spire]

Night fae feels particularly unfair this week because we get Burrs which is our best final row.

It’ll even out

[ornate dawn]

Anyone have any suggestions to improve the setup here? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5Gg4XVoeP4kG9e6oysqeHf

Apart from getting better weapons

[drowsy hollow]

Burrs was always the best trait after Pelagos was fixed

Odds are it'll be brought in line next week

They even made burrs stack with other slows at some point since beta

[strange python]

lowkey might switch to nightfae just for burrs and korayn

[wary ice]

still holding out for NF tuning tbh. theres no way they leave covs the way they are

wheather its FS/Burrs nerfs or buffs to other soul binds, idrc

[strange python]

FS?

[shy dust]

?

Why would first strike be nerfed

In d slice hammer sims higher

And burrs does not put us significantly ahead of kyrian

[gusty mirage]

It’s been speculation since release that either burrs or FS would be nerfed. Who knows where it came from tbh lol

I guess people are expecting blizz to even out covenant balance at higher renown? Idk

[shy dust]

I mean burrs is not much better than BiS kyrian for ST

And hammer 4.3% ahead on dungeon slice for me as outlaw versus first strike

So why would first strike be nerfed

[gusty mirage]

Fantastic question, I wish I had the answer for it. The logic behind why people thought it’d be nerfed was really clear to me either

[short hamlet]

I would think if first strike was nerfed it was because of an interaction with another classes tool kit

[shy dust]

It lasts 5 seconds

I doubt any class will completely break the game with a 5 sec 25% crit buff

[short hamlet]

laughs in boomkin

Jokes aside, idk. I just don't think rogue will be the source of nerfs if it is. Nobodies going to care if our shuriken storms/fok crit

[spice spire]

5 seconds? They just need 4

[magic vine]

the reason people expected a first strike nerf is because it pushes nf to the top for dungeons for multiple specs, though i think a lot of that sim work was done before they buffed burrs

[shy dust]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bsy73mQdishhqzqz3uZt1g

Not for us

[hallow summit]

!opener

how do we open with sepsis?

[spice spire]

Openers don’t matter as much, it depends on what your second row talent is as well tho

[stoic needle]

You can either get some mythic boes or pvp

[celest sandal]

can someone give me the TL;DR on the actual effect of the sin buffs? I've seen the numerical increases being marginal, but i know their aoe/st conditions can be favorable depending on dungeons etc. just looking for something more than "here's some numbers, this one's lower"

[steep hamlet]

does refreshing the subterfuge garrote with a regular one overwrite it?

[stoic needle]

Yes it does

[spice spire]

What do you mean? Like about how much more damage should you gain? If you were doing 5k sim before the buff, and melee is about 20% of your damage. It’s safe to assume that your damage should tick up by about 4% or 200 Dps.
So you’d now be simming 5200. Is that what you were looking for? Or something more?

[celest sandal]

I guess what im asking is: assuming equal skill level and enjoyability of playstyle, is there a scenario where I as a sub main might say, "hmm, for this M+ I'm going to run sin" I'm ESL so sorry in advance if I wasn't clear 😄

[spice spire]

No, you’re good! Yeah probably not. If you’re going to swap in M+ as a sub main, you’d want to go for the best spec for M+ which is outlaw. If you enjoy sin it does slightly better, but not a big enough margin to swap from sub, If you don’t want to

[tribal marlin]

Nah I don't believe sin can make it into M+ right now

BUT it still very strong in 2-3 target

so some dungeons such as ToP tyrannical might be ok tier for assa

but you'll do better and best as ol most of the time

[stoic needle]

It depends on what m+ you're talking about

Sin is fine up to 18s, people in here have shown that

If you're trying to push high keys like 19+ probably not but everything below that sin is more than viable

Before that point no one even checks your spec

It's about whether they'll take a rogue at all

[stoic idol]

[stoic needle]

[vast pond]

You guys use MA talent and Zol in twisting corridors? Or do you use the MA legendary and subterfuge?

Feel like leeching and master poisner would offer more survivability than sub with soothing

[stoic needle]

I use MA for the first 2 floors when I don't have any powers and then switch to zoldyck when I get to the broker vendor

And just subterfuge always

[vast pond]

Interesting. I'll give it a shot. Had some issues on level 8 with sub. Could just be bad luck with powers though.

[stoic needle]

Sin's powers are absolutely busted

Leeching and master poisoner is less survivability to start but as soon as you get a few powers it's very strong. You get quite a bit of hps from the leech and mind numbing or crippling reduces boss damage quite a bit and allows kiting

[vast pond]

Still use well placed steel?

[stoic needle]

I prefer lethal poisons personally

[upbeat umbra]

The 2 Sepsis powers combined and used on a an elite or 2 with some other mobs will delete everything on the screen.

[vast pond]

Thanks oshosi

[strange python]

I'm Kyrian
I get the Echo resets when you use the animacharged combo point and then the epic power where it does damage to the equivalent of 20 points.

It's very easy to nuke down bosses that way :D

[shadow helm]

shadowcore or sharpening

[iron orchid]

SD 16 this afternoon

Actually reaching the Dungeon Slice sim feels satisfying

[elfin forge]

So the way Dashing Scoundrel reads to me is that poison dot tick crits now always grant 1 energy. Does this mean that in AoE with fan of knifes applying deadly to like 5 targets they can all provide the energy from crits? Otherwise what is the M+ legendary?

Also are Sepsis and Burrs affected by Dashing scoundrel?

[spice spire]

M+ is Zoldyck’s or MA if on necrotic wake. Energy regen isn’t an issue on multi targeting. Sepsis and burrs are not affected by DS

Also W Deï.

[shadow helm]

did you use crimson tempest

[strange python]

I think everyone is running poison bomb

[iron orchid]

I ran CT in this

8.9% of my dps is CT actually

which is a lot

[spice spire]

Better than the 2% that’s poison bomb

[iron orchid]

YUP

Maybe even too much, could have ruptured more

[upbeat umbra]

did you rupture everything first or CT?

[iron orchid]

get the energy regen from garrotes and rupture, then CT

[upbeat umbra]

copy thamks

[iron orchid]

Better to get some alacrity up if you have none before ct

[strange python]

I know PB is taken in general, but CT was literally used all last xpac

[iron orchid]

because ct doesn't add any alacrity stacks, so you'd be energy starved real quick if you ct too early

[strange python]

I just don't get why people are taking PB now. I'm about to test CT for myself

[shy dust]

CT doesnt add alacrity stacks?

Thats a bug I assume

[iron orchid]

Yeah, apparently a known bug

[shy dust]

Unfortunate

[spice spire]

PB Could be fine on tyrannical weeks where you have aoe pumps. Or like theater of pain or even a mists, but I feel CT is the go-to on every other dungeon

[shy dust]

But also you cant look at straight %

for comparing PB to crimson tempest

CT is energy and Combo points

[gusty mirage]

huh?

CT bleed doesn't apply venomous wounds unless they changed that in SL

[shy dust]

CT costs energy and combo points

[gusty mirage]

oooh

[iron orchid]

Yeah

[gusty mirage]

got it

[iron orchid]

hard to compare

different setup

[shy dust]

PB costs the cp youd spend on envenom

[gusty mirage]

tru

[iron orchid]

exactly

[shy dust]

ofc CT will almost always show up as a higher %

of your damage breakdown

doesnt mean it is better straight up

[stoic needle]

@iron orchid do you have any VoDs of you doing keys? i'd love to watch them and see where I can improve

i can never get my overall in dungeons that high and i'm not sure whether it's gear or if i'm misplaying

[spice spire]

Hence the kekw afterwards. I enjoy jabbing at PB because I think that row is very lackluster

[iron orchid]

Well there are some streams from like 4 weeks ago

[gusty mirage]

I wish assa had a conduit that straight up gave us shrouded suff back 😦

[iron orchid]

but maybe imma stream some keys after the raid tonight

[gusty mirage]

HIDDEN BLADES ANYONE?

[iron orchid]

Can link you the logs if you want

[spice spire]

It also depends on level, osh. On 10s trash doesn’t last long at all. Definitely hurts dps

[stoic needle]

i'm doing like 12s and 13s now

[stoic needle]

what is your twitch?

[iron orchid]

What may hurt you most is not using you cds when they are up

as sin, you can almost setup and use everything on cd

withour compromising boss downs or pack bursting

[stoic needle]

it always feels like by the time I have bleeds up and can vendetta something, that vendetta won't last very long

but yeah i can see that not using it on CD is hurting me

i'm so tired of being double on use T_T

[iron orchid]

Try looking for Polyvalence_Dei, but I warn you, there are most likely full french garbage talking on the VODs

[gusty mirage]

trash talk is the best talk

regardless of language

[stoic needle]

its fine hahah i won't be able to understand it anyway

[iron orchid]

There must be two long VOD of me and guildmates doing 13-15ish dungeons

it was 3-4 weeks ago

[iron orchid]

And The UI is trash too, don't mind my laziness

[shadow helm]

SO

ct for m+

pb for single target

[tender fjord]

Hidden blades temple of kotmogu rbg

[iron orchid]

probably poison bomb on lower keys tyrannical weeks I'd say

But most of the time, it's CT yeah

[stoic needle]

With burrs in the equation now for the st boost I don't think I'll be picking PB in keys for a while

[safe pendant]

For CT you would use it only to refresh its bleed right? Not every finisher?

[safe totem]

!conduits

[stoic needle]

You'd only spam it in 8+ targets I think

[shadow helm]

BIG DEEPs only

[elfin forge]

Yo what's the verdict on Finality? Works on Assasination's Rupture?

[safe pendant]

Is it capped at 8?

[shadow helm]

youo nly get finalty rupture

its not worth lmao

[shy dust]

It’s a sub legendary

And is not good for assassination

[elfin forge]

was just curious all g

[stoic needle]

Finality should have been spec neutral

[fleet anchor]

It does work. But it's not great.

Still if you have it and haven't made another one yet, it's fine to use. Better than nothing.

[strange python]

I disagree. Subtlety is all about finishers so I think it works better for Sub.

class fantasy wise

[fleet anchor]

I mean it's kinda a mixed bag for me

[stoic needle]

Subtlety can be about finishers, but you can't deny that the concept would work well for all of the specs

[fleet anchor]

I don't really care but on the other hand I don't think the legendaries had to be so restrictive either. But part of the issue is that they chose some relatively boring effects.

Boring effects kinda ask to be more generic

[stoic needle]

Yeah I agree with that

Wtf is tiny toxic blade

[fleet anchor]

Like nothing about Finality is very exciting

[stoic needle]

I can't believe they scrapped the beta version for what we have now

[fleet anchor]

It's just Sub because it was the Sub Mastery

[stoic needle]

Actually dumbfounded about that decision

[fleet anchor]

Well the beta version quite literally never functioned

Not even once

It also did nothing for Outlaw at all

So it was a pretty bad generic

[stoic needle]

It should've become sin specific

[quasi ledge]

Feel like we're the only class without a defensive legendary, too :p

[fleet anchor]

Don't disagree with that, it could have been a neat Assassination one

[stoic needle]

Shame they just threw the whole concept out instead of making it work

But yeah all rogue has is a bunch of damage amps with fairly mundane conditionals

[strange python]

Oh i absolutely agree. I just can understand their decision to make it Subtlety only.

[quasi ledge]

I just see Hunters with their 15 sec Feign Death that removes all DoTs and get jealous

[stoic needle]

Right?

[strange python]

Druid with their oath of the elder druid
With guardian affinity they are literally unkillable in pvp

[stoic needle]

Or the elemental shaman lava burst one

[quasi ledge]

Already countered me enough as it is, without being able to removed all my DoTs a 2nd time on half the CD

[strange python]

I'm wondering if it will be nerfed.

Although hunter is in a bad spot considering lol

[stoic needle]

I wish zoldyck worked on envenom

[strange python]

Druid got a better Zoldyck

[stoic needle]

Really?

[strange python]

yeah

[quasi ledge]

I just leave games if it's a Kyrian Survival Hunter

Cba :p

[strange python]

Theirs doesn't have an execute effect to it.
It's just pure 25% dot tick rate

Circle of Life and Death is the name of it

[stoic needle]

[strange python]

I've still got 3800 soul ash and haven't touched a legendary outside of tier 1 MA ring.

[stoic needle]

What the fuck

[strange python]

Yeah.

it's funny cause I play feral as well, it's like their.. 2nd-3rd bis
but it's a good all around legendary

[stoic needle]

Every day I question more and more why I decided to main rogue in shadowlands

[spice spire]

I’ve 3900 with r4 Zoldyck and r1 MA. Gotta do torg this weekend.

[strange python]

I think i'm just gonna craft Doomblade

[stoic needle]

I think I can get r3 ma this week

[strange python]

since I do PvP and PvE...

[stoic needle]

Doomblade is kinda meh for both

[strange python]

Doomblade is better in 3's

[snow arch]

I went tier 4 MA awhile ago -- still my most used and fun legendary

[strange python]

I don't play 2's lmfao

[stoic needle]

Doomblade is good but it doesn't fit into the PvP meta atm

Lolol fair

[strange python]

2's is a joke really

[stoic needle]

I don't think I'm gonna bother doing any arenas on my rogue just stick to RBGs

I'll level my warrior for arenas

[spice spire]

2s is just whoever has a healer

[stoic needle]

I don't feel like doing the uphill battle

[strange python]

no
2's is all about who is the windwalker and holy paladin

[stoic needle]

Ret and arms tho

Isn't frost DK pretty decent too?

[strange python]

Yeah, Frost DK is great when you pair it with a monk.

It's not super great in 2s though.

[stoic needle]

Ugh

I want to love my rogue but blizzard just gives me so many reasons not to

[strange python]

Just play Rogue the way you want to play it.

[gloomy rover]

I love my rogue 🙂

[strange python]

I love my rogue too.

[stoic needle]

I would if people weren't so concerned with the meta

[strange python]

I honestly enjoy playing Rogue much more than any other class.
It's fun, active, and the class fantasy is great.

[stoic needle]

I'm just worried about trying to find a guild

[strange python]

I can understand that.

I have friends that I play with. They just want me to catch up on my Rogue.

and soon, I might be joining a mythic team as Assassination :)

[drifting imp]

I also love my rogue

[stoic needle]

I was in a really cool guild but it blew up because of drama

[spice spire]

Guilds are ez. It’s really just dependent on what you want out of it.

[stoic needle]

And I wanted to be in a frankly more skilled guild anyway

They were a bit too casual for me

[livid temple]

Im guessing when the time comes for two legendaries the go to might be Zoldyck & Doomblade or Dashing?

[stoic needle]

But that's the problem when you want to be competitive, competitive guilds don't want rogues

I don't really care about guild rank, but it's the worst especially in those low-mid ranked mythic guilds that suck the meta so hard

[strange python]

That's normal though if you want me to be honest.

[stoic needle]

Yep. I like doomblade thematically better than dashing so I'll probably go doomblade zoldyck

[strange python]

They want FOTM classes all the time.

[stoic needle]

I just wish that I could find a guild that understands that you don't have to be all fotm all the time to perform well

Seems to be a rarity these days

[livid temple]

i have faith that rogues will regain their 'meta' spot at some point this expansion... im just hoping its sooner rather than later, the main reason there is such a disparity between classes that guilds want to take vs the ones they dont is a mix of utility and dps output, right now i do feel like classes that have a lot of utility are doing more damage than they should vs the classes that dont. and also the balancing differential between damage is some of the highest we have seen in a while (not including corruption), usually blizzard manages to balance the highest and the lowest dps class within 10-15% of each other, this expac the difference is closer to 30%.

[stoic needle]

Yeah. It just doesn't make sense that classes with the most utility are also doing the most damage

I'm just praying that they make whatever new systems they add in 9.1 impactful instead of more 3.5% dps boosts like covenants

[livid temple]

if utility wasnt as strong/required as it is right now then i think the difference would be a lot less. but overall the damage tuning is still way off. for example MM & UH do more ST damage than a Sub rogue, (which is meant to be a ST pumper) while they also do more AoE & Cleave

[stoic needle]

Yeah, like assassination should not be only 1% behind sub in single target

[strange python]

I feel like m+, pugging of course, is in a far worse spot than raid though. I can’t tell you how many keys I’ve applied to only looking for balance, udk and fmage. They will put it in the description

[stoic needle]

They need to un-nerf akaaris

[strange python]

It’s insane

[stoic needle]

Sub deserves to be a single target pumper

What level keys are you trying to do eggs?

I have... Moderate luck getting into pugs. There's a lot of keys that are looking for the meta ones like you said but Its not like I can't get any keys invites at all. It takes around 15-30 minutes of applying to get into a 13 for me depending on the time of day

[spice spire]

Just outpump UHDKs and MM hunters EZ

[livid temple]

@strange python this is an issue, but its a hard issue for blizzard to fix, a lot of it is community perception made by streamers and big (top 100) guilds, even though they tell them this info only applies to the top 100 pugs will try to mimic that for the same levels of success, but i can assure you its not just a rogue issue, its a melee in general. the only one of my 3 classes that get invited often is my 213 WW, vs my 222 rogue and my 220 UH

[iron orchid]

Pugging is really hard as sin

[stoic needle]

You joke but it's actually possible sometimes

[iron orchid]

Hard to get into keys

Hard to get stealth refreshes

[strange python]

I’m looking at 11-15s keys - can’t really get into many pugging

Usually just use my key

[gloomy rover]

I like rogue being not meta. Got a 91% parse with 2.5k dps on council lol. Flexing on them guildies yo

[stoic needle]

There are so many keys with melee spots already full, I don't bother with those. But if they don't have a melee it's like a 50/50 chance that I get into one

[spice spire]

Serious gamers only

[stoic needle]

My rio is slightly behind/round curve

[livid temple]

Basically for the Balancing 'Meta' to get fixed blizzard need to put in a lot of work which im worried we wont see, i 100% doubt Sub will see any buffs, even though it could really use them.. and Outlaws single target probably wont get nerfed even though it should. i also doubt Sin will get any major tuning outside of % buffs to the damage, because fixing some of the major issues takes to much time outside of new expansions

[stoic needle]

It just sucks being a melee player period

Sucks because I don't enjoy playing ranged as much as I do playing melee

[livid temple]

ye my rogue is sitting at 1200 RiO and still gets declined from almost everything

[strange python]

Yeah, this is the only expansion ever that I’m probably going to reroll ranged

[wide bolt]

Yea im 1 DoS 15 away from KSM and can barely get into any keys

[alpine garden]

I've played Rogue since vanilla, not going to change now 😆

[iron orchid]

I'm almost at 1500, and most pugs don't want me in a 15

[spice spire]

It’s weird. Coming into the xpac sub was the boogeyman. And it saw almost no changes and went into now a weak class?

[stoic needle]

thas why i picked rogue too, it was my first class in vanilla

[alpine garden]

!talents

[strange python]

Sub is still decent - it just has 0 cleave

[alpine garden]

I'm assuming we havent seen any changes?

[iron orchid]

You can check the pins for this

no changes from what is in the pins I think

[spice spire]

Sub seems to be falling by the week though. It’s just 😦

[safe pendant]

This hit kinda different

:/

[stoic needle]

#weouthere

[strange python]

Are you guys talking about Rogue or just Assassination?

Outlaw is literally fine in all content except pvp

[fading wigeon]

Those are some bad hunters and locks lol

[stoic needle]

sub just doesn't do enough damage for the amount of effort it has to put in and how much it suffers from mechanics

[strange python]

Sub only has 1 big CD and it's on a 3 minute cooldown with no reduction.

[iron orchid]

Yeah outlaw is the most likely to be considered in a fine position

[stoic needle]

symbols and dance count as cooldowns

[strange python]

Vs outlaw with their legendary that's bis for all content, plus they get CDR from just playing.

I don't consider symbols and dance cooldowns

I'm referring to Shadow Blades.

[stoic needle]

this new warcraftlogs companion is very monkas

[spice spire]

Altimor gaming

[stoic needle]

it lets you see what spec and rio someone is ingame

[deft vault]

5% wipe on artificer mythic xy mox FeelsBadMan
https://gyazo.com/692246b24af9b92d9df9fceb39cc9805?token=26eb5fabdc38d84d4701f93c2d686bd4

[spice spire]

F.

[stoic needle]

oof

[strange python]

Druid literally got a better assassination rogue legendary

lmfao

[stoic needle]

i'm honestly disgusted

[strange python]

I feel like I put more effort into playing Assassination than the other specs.

[stoic needle]

and idk its just like, if i were to reroll, what do i do? balance? aff? fire? none of them hit the same way that rogue does

[strange python]

I tried out outlaw for one dungeon and I did 2.2k more dps without knowing what to do lmfao

[stoic needle]

my performance is directly tied to my enjoyment of the spec

i do better as sin even though outlaw is better because i'm having more fun

[deft vault]

Assas feels perfectly fine tbh right now

[livid temple]

@strange python sub is 100% still viable, personally i just believe that they get punished far to much for downtime, and while doing good single target it still not great (Not as good as other classes that can do more than pure ST)

[stoic needle]

its only 3% behind outlaw

[deft vault]

damage is fine unless youre like a top tier guild

[stoic needle]

the problem is just convincing people to give you a chance in the first place

like every other key i do i get messages like "I've never seen a sin rogue do so much damage"

"you changed my mind about sin rogues"

idk whether to laugh or cry

[livid temple]

i wish i just had better gear for sin, then i could make the transition much easier. right now im sitting at about 8% haste, 28% crit, and 17% versa. if i could trade some of those stats to pad my haste it would be great

[stable moss]

What haste are we aiming for as assa

[strange python]

Depends?

Are you doing single target or Aoe?

[trim robin]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[strange python]

I still think Crit is better for M+

[stoic needle]

there is no set # you should aim for in terms of DPS. you choose whatever gear you have that sims the best

but in pure feelcrafting terms, for the feeling of the rotation i found that it started to flow better around 15% haste

haste is still #1 no matter what, it's choosing between vers and crit for M+ and raid

[livid temple]

also i should really swap to nightfae from kyrian, because it sims about 85 dps better, but i really cba to grind all that renown back

[stoic needle]

it's not that big of a deal

[strange python]

i just swapped to nightfae

[stoic needle]

hammer of genesis is a great haste boost

[strange python]

like not even 15 minutes ago

[stoic needle]

burrs 📈

[deft vault]

burrs go brrrrrrrrrrrr

[stoic needle]

but if i were kyrian i probably wouldn't swap

my stats are currently 23% haste, 17% crit, 20% mastery and 14% vers

with a couple more weeks of conquest that mastery should drop quite a bit and i should have more crit and haste

[livid temple]

yeah atm i dont want to swap covenants again (at the start of the expac i was venthyr then switched to kyrian) so i kinda want to wait until 9.1 just in case they really change up covenants

[strange python]

I swapped because after using Palegos and seeing how weak it feels, I'm just gonna go to Niya.

The tree is better in every form of content.

[stoic needle]

first strike is gonna be absolutely giga for sin

[strange python]

yeah, i'll still run niya though...

[stoic needle]

for M+ i mean

you keep refreshing the crit buff while you set up your garottes and then it gives you more reliable CP from FoK to set up ruptures afterwards

it's amazing

[deft vault]

Does vanish reset first strike?

[stoic needle]

no

[strange python]

FoK?

what

[stoic needle]

fan of knives

gives CP based on targets crit, not hit

[strange python]

yeah

[stoic needle]

which is why its kinda shit

but FS is +25% crit

[strange python]

it also is cheaper than mutilate

[stoic needle]

sub and outlaw will only get 5 seconds of the first strike bonus every pack because they hit everything instantly

but we get at least 3-4 extra seconds from setting up subterfuge garottes, and maybe a bit more if you mutilate instead of FOK after that

it'll be interesting to see if cheesing it is worth it or not

[strange python]

but most of their burst is done in 5 seconds anyways lol

[gusty mirage]

We have burst?

[spice spire]

Oh yeah

[deft vault]

trying to get my guild to give me PI. They dont believe in the assas dream

[gusty mirage]

Tell them that you’ll garrote them in their sleep if you don’t get it

[strange python]

!WA

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[cerulean kernel]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[balmy condor]

Sadly not as giga as the other 2 specs

[stoic needle]

Shh

Just let me live in ignorance

[gleaming sorrel]

does it matter if i overcap on CP when i use Shiv? Should be more valuable to just use it while on 5CP rather than using envenom and then trying again right?

[stoic needle]

Yeah it's fine if you overcap with shiv

[celest ruin]

no pvp pieces in the bis list

[stoic needle]

It's because whispyr doesn't pvp

From what I've seen though, get all the haste vers pieces you can and go crit/vers for gloves and possibly bracers and cape

[celest ruin]

my gear is mostly verse > haste since its all from pvp, perfect for outlaw i guess

but i hate the rng playstyle

[stoic needle]

It works good for sin as well

[celest ruin]

one time i got 5 buffs and i got the inerva laser mechanic

[stoic needle]

I have mostly pvp pieces now

[celest ruin]

i wanna cry

[stoic needle]

Yeah

[gusty mirage]

5 buffs are foreshadowing that it’s going to be a wipe or you’re getting wrecked by rng on mechanics

RNGesus giveth and taketh

[stoic needle]

Amen

[spice spire]

Beams mid vendetta is

[ashen anchor]

Ghosts on Xy'mox

[stoic needle]

On one of the inerva pulls I did yesterday I got, I shit you not, every single beam and 3/6 of the adds

It was fucked

Thankfully we wiped but goddamn

[spice spire]

I got one on our run yesterday. During initial burst window

I would have hit 5k had it not

[dusky vault]

One of our council kills I had 8/9 dark recitals

[spice spire]

That was our first Heroic council kill, the second one (last night) I had subterfuge and crimson tempest still talented from sun king lol

[gusty mirage]

What did you do for the rng gods to hate you? 😂

[frozen jasper]

was raiding heroic tonight and it felt so great, your tips and advices got me to 3 99 parses, i'm so happy assa is back on the menue boys

was best dps in my whole guild too lol

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

[spice spire]

isn’t it early for you whispyr?

[balmy condor]

No?

It’s almost 2pm

[spice spire]

Either your schedule is scuffed or I’m lit and you just don’t sleep

[chilly marsh]

how is sin right now for ST and m+ ? better than sub?

[spice spire]

ST is within 2% on ST. It feels fine in m+ to me.

[balmy condor]

Yes

[strange python]

How you play> the spec

[balmy condor]

Id say I’m answering questions in here about 18 hours a day

[spice spire]

Yeah that’s why I thought it was early, generally from the time I leave work > 2 hours into work you answer questions

So just, damn.

[balmy condor]

I actually slept in today

[spice spire]

O

[chilly marsh]

im having some fps problems and i think im missing dps as sub when you lag in SD windows.... it's just devastating

[stoic needle]

Existed

[stoic needle]

My rng is an actual joke

[balmy condor]

Usually anywhere from like 2:30-4am, and then I sleep, wake up at 8-9am

[chilly marsh]

so im thinking of giving sin a try after this buff for ST and M+

[balmy condor]

Sometimes like I’ll roll over and sleep till about noon

[stoic needle]

In classic wow I rolled a 1 on the first black sinew I ever saw drop for my hunter's epic bow quest

Then didn't see one drop for another 14 onyxia kills

It has a 30% drop rate

Did over 30 onyxia to get get a deathbringer, and just literally never got any other main hand weapon after that

Never saw a crul'shorukh

Like my rng is literally a joke among my guildies

It took me over 350 BRD arena runs for a savage gladiator chain

[gusty mirage]

Yikes

[stoic needle]

This expansion I've still never seen a plaguefall Phial drop or in the vault

My other rogue guildie has gotten it 3x

[gusty mirage]

I’ve seen one drop and it was given to me by a kind warrior

[stoic needle]

I didn't get any weapon in the vault until 2 weeks ago

[gusty mirage]

Cthulhu bless his soul

[stoic needle]

I think I just rolled a nat 1 on birth and was permanently cursed to have shit rolls forever

[gusty mirage]

Just play an alt and see where all your loot is hiding

[stoic needle]

Nothing hits the same as rogue

I guess I could do boomkin or mm or uh but meh

[topaz saffron]

Getting into a 15 is harder than the actual 15 🥲

[stoic needle]

They really need to make a m+ queue system

That's the only solution to this bullshit I can think of

So I just found out that niya's tools herbs works on yourself with the recuperator conduit and SnD

Free 5% haste...

Gotta sim this

[stoic needle]

seems to be about 40 dps worse but it's interesting nevertheless

check this out tho: invigorating herbs simming best in dslice for me https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pVjrcovxwom1BiBmz5gW1u

16 dps over burrs

[quartz spear]

!guide

[stoic needle]

@balmy condor are you aware of the herbs stonks? 📈

[quartz spear]

are people going Dashing Scoundrel for ST?

[stoic needle]

no

zoldyck's execute is the only reason you bring sin to a raid

with dashing you're just a worse sub rogue

[quartz spear]

ok. And for pvp, what are people generally going?

[stoic needle]

MA or doomblade

MA for solo work in RBGs and 2s, doomblade for 3s and teamfights

[quartz spear]

Fair enough!

ty ty

[stoic needle]

np

invigorating herbs is 76 dps worse than first strike for me https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vjfZJm2x8L9kwuwgEb44P but still interesting that it beats burrs

[brittle pawn]

they need to increase soul ash collection at this point

[quartz spear]

Foooor real... It's going to take weeks to really even try assa the way I want to

[stoic needle]

I'm surprised tc doesn't give extra ash tbh

[brittle pawn]

im fine with gating it for the first 2 months or whatever

so people earn their first 2 r4s at blizzard's pace

after that, let people just farm it

[stoic needle]

Gotta keep those engagement metrics up

[quartz spear]

^

[iron orchid]

Imma test and sim it too @stoic needle

[dusky vault]

Just wait.for next patch when soul ash gain is 100x now making all of this useless

[stoic needle]

I have a feeling that if the % was higher it would be even more competitive

[iron orchid]

Patchwerk sim ended and it is not a big loss

Waiting for DS

[stoic needle]

I wonder if I had lower haste it'd sim better

One of you sub boys sim it and see

[iron orchid]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cwQADSEfCVnnkG7mHc1YCP

simming higher too

telling me to get crit

Probably mostly sim bait

[torpid spoke]

when do you usually chill on dps

[iron orchid]

because it may proc when you are not in combat

[torpid spoke]

like I feel like I have a fuck ton of downtime

whenever I play sin I feel like my energy is like in the doo doo

[stoic needle]

Chill on dps? Never

[torpid spoke]

do you just press buttons. lol

[stoic needle]

ASP. always stay pumping

[torpid spoke]

i mean my energy is low at times idk when to pool vs not

[stoic needle]

Literally constantly

You don't pool

[torpid spoke]

like pool before shiv?

or like.. is it even worth pooling

[stoic needle]

Not really

[iron orchid]

@stoic needle imma stream DOS 17

probably not turning sound on

[stoic needle]

In aoe, your energy is pretty much infinite and you're nearly GCD locked

In ST there are some low periods but it's not that bad

Dos is so shit this week with storming

In some parts at least

[torpid spoke]

@stoic needle can I see your wowarmory?

maybe my stats are just too doo doo (using my outlaw set)

[stoic needle]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/wyrmrest-accord/echu

[torpid spoke]

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/us/hyjal/crackérs

this is mine before logout

so I assume i need a fuck ton more haste

[stoic needle]

23% haste gamer

I didn't start enjoying sin until about 15%

And it feels better and better the more I get

[torpid spoke]

that's what I'm thinking

so I just need more crit / haste I think

less vers?

[stoic needle]

Your rings are gross

Lol

Vers/mast 🤢

[torpid spoke]

i got crit vers rings but no haste

[stoic needle]

Yeah. Rings give a huge amount of substat

Just changing those will make a solid difference

Change your rings and belt and you will notice the difference

If you can find a haste/vers neck instead of a vers/haste neck that will be noticeable as well

[torpid spoke]

prob want to make the switch but outlaw is what I've been rollin for a bit

[strange python]

how do they sim? just be aware that you're actually getting dps increases out of making things FEEL better

[stoic needle]

If they are the same ilvl I'd be surprised if they didn't sim as upgrades

But don't take an ilvl loss just to swap substats around

[strange python]

better to know for sure than to assume

you're probably right, but still

the advise should always indicate whether something is ACTUALLY better or just FEELING it

otherwise we'd never tell someone to use sectec in the sub channel lol

or CT here

[brittle pawn]

sectec

[stoic needle]

wait do people not like pressing sectech? lol

i think talking about feels is valid as long as you're clear that's what you're talking about

that's why i said 'enjoy' and didn't mention anything about dps numbers

@iron orchid haha it's funny to me that you click but still pump so hard

[brittle pawn]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5mF9y1d6KdVComFrVV9rQ3

hopefully i win this soul ash mission so i can play it next week

otherwise i'll be 85 short

and cry

[stoic needle]

That happened to me when I was venthyr for lvl 4 zoldyck

So shitty

[brittle pawn]

im nf

but trappers are dead

and my missions are level 60

[stoic needle]

The trapper thing never affected me because I took my time and leveled all of my compansiono

[brittle pawn]

also haven't gotten an exp mission in over a month

so i can't level companions

i get 1500 exp once a day from a 50 elite

[stoic needle]

You have to suicide them

[median mango]

I feel you so much. 😅 🙃

[stoic needle]

That's more than a mission lol

[brittle pawn]

what

ill take a 4 hour 1500 exp mission over 12 hour kamikaze

[stoic needle]

Xp is xp

Sucks that it takes longer though

I've been specifically avoiding campaign missions while I level my followers up

@iron orchid RIP