Im got finality and celerity
#assassination
fallow otter
strange python
That’s only ever one patch away from topping all the meters
So it’s hard to drop them
fallow otter
Done prog and high keys in both
strange python
But they never quite maintain the spot
fallow otter
My rogue is 214 ilvl, just chilling on the back burner lol
ornate raptor
I enjoy outlaw not that am a pro at it. But i notice my dps is lower then most outlaw players
fallow otter
Why is your backburner rogue almost the same ilvl as my 5/10m
It would be higher but mastery gear can sit in my bag and rott lol
fallow otter
My ww has been pretty lucky for a change
ornate raptor
Me neither, had no luck. Trinket dropped from sludefist heroic. Our tank looted and kept it cause he liked it
fallow otter
Except weapons like usual so I pvp for those
ornate raptor
I was like woot nooo
low girder
I'm at 12 mythic kills and nothing
ornate raptor
Damn thats painful
low girder
Hopefully this week, though I'm only in for 3
ornate raptor
Which 3?
low girder
Shriek/huntsman/artificer
ornate raptor
I guessed wrong
low girder
Rotating everyone for the 3 sucks
ornate raptor
Yeah that would have been my guess
fallow otter
Yeh that was my guess
low girder
Outlaw chest is 200 atm
fallow otter
Hence the fuck haha
low girder
I really wanted to be in for darkvein but I couldn't play outlaw until saturday
And they got her to 15k last week so I understand
fallow otter
Well....
low girder
I'm sub atm, getting back into outlaw
fallow otter
It's a dps check so...
low girder
Now that I'm not stuck with a 184 weapon
ornate raptor
I play all 3 specs how ever i see fit for the fight as i said i am no where near being perfect to perform all 3 at 100% i make my faults. Always been Sin mainly. But its a nice experience to try all these things
I like testing stuff out
static glacier
I swear sin is playable since the buffs
fallow otter
There has been something weirdly enjoyable about flexing for the raid to a new class, probably one of the hardest to play with the kyrian cov ability and fighting hunters at the top of the meters for the top spot
static glacier
also speaking of which, feels like MM has started falling off
fallow otter
Ye
static glacier
still, balance affli and fire will too
I think MM might not scale as hard as its prime competitors*
lament dove
yeah that will be big... I wonder if Blizz will do some balancing a few weeks after max soulbinds
fallow otter
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fW99Bd9AAgYZ1nAeEMPuXV
Someone pray for phial for me
Why do I always end up in sin chat talking about regular wow shit
Whisp gonna get all sad
sick scarab
fallow otter
vivid hearth
Phial is insane
lament dove
btw, when we talk about dps vs utility, you have to take into account that it is a completely different issue for guild groups and pugs
in guilds dps of course is the less important, especially in raids, where mythic bosses usually don't die because people f*ck up mechanics and not because they don't have enough dps, since guild groups gear more efficiently and gear brings dps anyway
but in pugs, and especially in m+ for example, dps will make up for a lot of mistakes that pugs will make
my point is that guild groups will not kick you because of less dps, but pugs will... also pugs will disband while guild raids don't...
so if we take pugging into consideration, which is a big part of the game since queues were introduced, your dps contribution is important, so leaving some specs or even classes behind, and usually for long periods of time even, makes a lot of people frustrated and makes the game not fun for them, which is just plain bad in a game...
celest ruin
do you guys think there will be another tuning pass
fallow otter
btw, when we talk about dps vs utility, you have to take into account that it is...
But you have 2 other specs
lament dove
yeah but hybrid classes don't
I just don't get why we always have to wait weeks or months for the underdog classes/specs to get buffed a few % when EVERYONE KNOWS they are underperforming
I mean they are jokes about them on the forums etc. this whole thing is completely baffling to me, like I would live in another world or something
how hard it is and what harm it does to buff the underdog with a few percent?
sure, something will always be last, but what counts is by how much
like now people are starting to play assa again (after 13% buff, which is ridiculous in itself), while almost nobody played it so far, we just had to wait almost 2 months for it
balmy condor
do you guys think there will be another tuning pass
Prolly not
balmy condor
Zoldyck is the only real option for sin pve imo
obtuse ruin
Even m+?
balmy condor
Especially m+
broken flame
So Zoldyck is better than Dashing?
balmy condor
Yes
broken flame
Ok
balmy condor
Dashing is good on 1 target but gives you less execute
And that’s what makes sin viable and usable atm
Also sucks with more targets
broken flame
Ok
balmy condor
So if you want to do m+ with sin
broken flame
Thanks for the tip
balmy condor
Dashin real sucky
broken flame
Zoldyck it is 😄
wet rock
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
cedar steeple
played two games of assassination for the first time in pvp
wow
it feels so good
craggy kiln
Arena or bg?
cedar steeple
bg
vivid hearth
what conduits do you roll, or plan to roll after reminding it for pvp? 🙂
fathom plume
Yeah too, I am between Sin and Outlaw in PvP.
I dont know where I should invest myself. Now i am at the stage of buying weapons.
cedar steeple
i think assassination is better in pvp but im not too invested into doing pvp so im split between the two
gleaming eagle
I use the poison and shiv + nature dmg for single target
Works amazing with sepsis and envenom
Fok crit is nice for m+ and aoe
cedar steeple
aoe 
pearl surge
How is Assassin after the recent buff?
sonic wind
imo, in PvE still trash and very unfun
pearl surge
Mmkay
plain thistle
not true but ok, everyone can have their own opinion
spice spire
How is Assassin after the recent buff?
It’s the least strong rogue spec. If you enjoy assassination, you’ll still enjoy it
pearl surge
I enjoy it but I cannot justify my own spot in a group when I look at my DPS
stoic needle
I'd say it's about on par with sub if you know what you're doing
lapis fulcrum
does sin have execute faze?
pearl surge
With Zoldycks
lapis fulcrum
oh nice, thanks
gleaming eagle
Pve is strong with crimson tempest
I don't like poison bomb that much cause it barely proc for me
spice spire
It also has execute with blindside as it procs more sub 40%
stray ivy
Assassin scales better right
red light
by far
stray ivy
nice
stoic needle
stray ivy
its not real but its gives hope
spice spire
in chat
There’s scaling in all classes, hitting x breakpoint to feel smoother will feel good, but in the end all classes scale, and those with better tuned numbers will scale much better
gleaming eagle
It just felt like we scale BUt the truth is that we've been getting buffs
5% and then 8%
strange python
^false
Sin scales better
And has been getting buffs
Well I shouldn’t say false
That’s rude
I apologize
gleaming eagle
My rupture tooltip is at 5.1k over 24 second
frail fossil
talking abt scaling 
north basin
What does scaling do for us? I mean we wont suddenly be better than all other specs at 228 itemlevel
Coz sub and outlaw be 228 too and they scale too
frail fossil
yeah like it's stupid
if sin gets more haste it'll feel better to play
but doesn't mean it'll suddenly become strong
cuz it's tuned low as fuck anyway
strange python
well the discussion is about relative scaling
at 250 ilvl does sin catch up /pass outlaw single target
stuff like that
cedar steeple
don’t worry guys we scale
twilit ravine
this is probably a dumb question but the energy from dashing scoundrel is only during envenom uptime right?
balmy condor
I felt a disturbance in the force
lament dove
although crit and haste have secondary benefits on top of raw numbers, hello seal fate and venomous wounds...
balmy condor
this is probably a dumb question but the energy from dashing scoundrel is only d...
I don’t think so, but I’ve never actually fully confirmed
balmy condor
Assassin scales better right
No
balmy condor
Sin scales better
No
lament dove
I mean look at our passives
outlaw and sub have their full benefit right off the bat
while our passives give more benefit if we have more crit and haste
balmy condor
...
lament dove
what do you call that?
balmy condor
I call those passives
lament dove
andl what do you call it when a passive gives more benefit with more crit and haste?
balmy condor
Helpful passives
You do realize that sin literally scales less than sub right now
Right
Like are you actually meming me
twilit ravine
vengance also has a passive that scales with crit 
lament dove
scaling of the whole spec overall and scaling of the passives is two different thing
lament dove
e.g. if all specs had zero crit, seal fate would literally do nothing while the other specs passives would work the smae way
balmy condor
But it does not make sin scale better
For fucks sake
You’re literally just staring at one passive in a vacuum
Of course having a crit passive vs not having a crit passive does something
But that has little to no bearing on whether or not something scales better or worse
If you take the sin bis setup, and the sub bis setup
And you increase the item level on both
The distance between them grows
Scaling exists
Sin scaling better than other specs
Is a fucking meme
And I will not have that bullshit spread around here
Like a third grade playground
toxic tusk
What did I just walk into?
twilit ravine
people just looking at passives and ignoring AP ratios and such
strange python
i mean i like you whispyr
and i respect you
but you dont have to throw things out like "a third grade playground"
adults can have a conversation
balmy condor
It literally fucking is though
balmy condor
It’s people with nonsense ideas and spaghetti in their brains who came up with it many years ago
And for some reason
strange python
thats ok
strange python
i dont disagree
strange python
and youre not responding to my point
balmy condor
END
toxic tusk
Nax has a good point. You obviously know your stuff, but keep the anger out of it.
lament dove
it's fine
it was more of a question from me anyway, it's not like I was going to tell what's what if it sounded like that
toxic tusk
People will look past what you know and see how you react instead. Hard to convince people you’re right if they think you’re an asshat.
strange python
and rightfully so
balmy condor
I’m not trying to lash out at someone specifically
strange python
but you dont change minds by making other people feel like garbage and small
balmy condor
So I’m sorry if it came across like that
strange python
nbd
i listen when you correct me 😉
just want other people to have the same reaction
toxic tusk
I’m no therapist, but it sounds like it bothers you as much as it does because you put in the time and effort to learn and help people and randoms are intentionally or unintentionally undoing it. I’d be upset about it too.
Especially since you just want to help.
balmy condor
It bothers me so much because unlike the many wrong things we’ve seen from 34% crit to buffs not helping, to all sorts of stuff
This is the ONE thing that I’ve wanted to change perception on
If nothing else
twilit ravine
?
twilit ravine
everything whispyr said was super tame
balmy condor
And I can’t do it
toxic tusk
Can you explain this sin scaling thing?
balmy condor
Literally can’t
toxic tusk
Im late to the party but it sounds like math. A 1 percent difference over an extended period of time gets bigger and bigger.
strange python
and it has been the perception since
balmy condor
(This was like cata/tbc back in the day)
strange python
despite a literal new spec coming along
many people think of scaling as an innate characteristic of a class
but it isnt
twilit ravine
part of the blame is not being able to see AP and AP ratios in game
strange python
its just a number in a spreadsheet more or less
but @balmy condor i think people want sin to scale better because they want hope. How you see it tho is if they keep spreading that sin scales better it wont get the help it needs to be good again.
balmy condor
The idea is that since sin has seal fate, AND isn’t gcd locked, AND bleeds are hasted now, haste and crit make sin giga faster and help with the rotation so much that stacking X things will lead to sin starting slow in the expansion, and with gear as time goes on, it will improve, and be the de facto spec in future tiers
So it’s kinda two fold
You got “stats make sin better than everything”
And “sin starts bad early in the expac”
And neither of those make any sense in the last like 7 years
strange python
yes
toxic tusk
1 percent difference over time
balmy condor
Pretty much yeah
It’s a little more complicated than that
But generally speaking, yes
toxic tusk
I meant in a sense that people think 1 percent remains 1 percent, but they do t see how that 1 percent grows bigger and bigger.
strange python
i personally dont actually mind sin being a little lower than the other specs due to the slow nature of it
but 400-500 dps
is way too much
toxic tusk
I just checked out a parse from a 10 minute failed Council last night. Buddy and I had the same gear level, I beat him in both spec and ilvl parses and he still out dps’d me by about 10 percent.
strange python
@toxic tusk some of that is due to a much lower sin playerbase
balmy condor
And it’s not really just because the % grows, there’s numbers behind that which cause that to be true
toxic tusk
I wonder if it’s because they’re treating assassins as pvp types so balancing them for non pvp is more tricky? Like making them better in raids would make them god tier in pvp
gleaming eagle
Sin pvp is actually nerfed cause of kyrian
Phial counters us
But still ok though
In 3v3
And rbg
strange python
can we just discuss how disgusting it is that phial removes all bleeds
balmy condor
can we just discuss how disgusting it is that phial removes all bleeds
Pretty disgusting tbh
twilit ravine
10% is probably within blizzards except-able margin
gleaming eagle
Ya phial need nerf
strange python
10% is a crazy number
gusty mirage
can we just discuss how disgusting it is that phial removes all bleeds
what about kleia making you immune to bleeds for 8s after?
that's even more gross
whole imp
whats the difference in play style with assassin vs. sub?
balmy condor
10% is probably within blizzards except-able margin
Yeh idk what they balance around tbh, do they balance around logs? Around sims?
gusty mirage
whats the difference in play style with assassin vs. sub?
more tears for assa
balmy condor
whats the difference in play style with assassin vs. sub?
Sub pops CDs to burst every 30 seconds, sin maintains more uptime mechanics like bleeds
main blaze
Dot management vs CD management
balmy condor
Generally speaking they’re actually fairly similar in playstyle
twilit ravine
Yeh idk what they balance around tbh, do they balance around logs? Around sims?
id imagine the goal is within 10% and able to beat all hard dps checks in the current raid would be a decent enough goal for blizz
balmy condor
You just replace 1 maintainable buff with 1 cooldown
And otherwise they’re pretty much the same
strange python
id changei t to 5% personally
balmy condor
id imagine the goal is within 10% and able to beat all hard dps checks in the cu...
Yeah something like that
whole imp
ah ok i would definitely like sin more then
strange python
but blizzard probably has it to 10%
whole imp
outlaw is kind of a mix of the two
toxic tusk
Is there any kind of indicator of where an average player should be sitting given their ilvl/gear? Instead of where you’re actually sitting?
whole imp
if you describe it that way
gusty mirage
sin is a lot of fun to play, I miss it dearly
balmy condor
Is there any kind of indicator of where an average player should be sitting give...
Not in game, only would really be sims
toxic tusk
I know things are dependant, but with not much assassin players I figure where someone should be would be skewed.
not many*
balmy condor
Like sim vs your execution on a dummy, your parse sorta if there were a couple more players (soon tm give it like 3-4 more weeks)
twilit ravine
idk 10% would probably be fine if everyone wasnt so obsessed with numbers the more annoying thing is the huge gaps in utility between the classes
toxic tusk
Is there an execute dummy yet?
balmy condor
But really there’s too many variables to just “know” if you’re doing good without just having the experience to feel if you’re doing good
balmy condor
Is there an execute dummy yet?
No but there is a fight type in raidbots called training dummy
gusty mirage
idk if you can attack it though
balmy condor
I guess the healing dummy
That’s a friendly target
toxic tusk
I’ve got Zoldyck on my boots
gusty mirage
That’s a friendly target
that answers that
lol
its weird how they haven't bothered implementing an execute range target dummy
sonic wind
How Training Dummy in sims work? Does it always have low hp?
strange python
sin would be in a good place if bosses would stay at <30% the whole fight
sonic wind
How then the execution phase is simmed within Training Dummy?
strange python
kek
sonic wind
Or I just can't see Zoldyck in sims
balmy condor
How then the execution phase is simmed within Training Dummy?
It isn’t, just like a training dummy in game
sonic wind
Oh, I see
balmy condor
Or I just can't see Zoldyck in sims
You wouldn’t use training dummy as a fight type if you want to see zoldyck in sims
sonic wind
I use Patchwerk, yes?
balmy condor
I made a custom fight type that’s just raw execute
A while ago
Let me find that
This thing
Was a comparison between bis list setups before the sin buff
(I added the buff in manually)
And then created a 3 min 20% hp execute phase
So it’s basically a rough estimation on phase 3 sire
sonic wind
Oh, I see
balmy condor
Obviously not a very precise way to go about it
sonic wind
sonic wind
Thanks
balmy condor
No problem
strange python
my big problem with Castle Nathria balance is you have a gap of over 1k dps between specs
thats 20%+ damage
idk how you can even keep the title of balance designer in that situation
balmy condor
I tend to think that power infusion actually is starting to have an effect
strange python
yes power infusion is way op
balmy condor
There’s classes that get power infusions, and classes that don’t
And rogue is not one of them
strange python
hey theres an idea
plain thistle
yey 1 more week without dagger, cant event play sin 
strange python
i agree with that
rigid wyvern
Hmm, 220 weapon in vault, but 213 raid belt sims higher. I feel like i should take the weapon cause im more likely to get belt from raid
spice spire
If you’re downing the boss on the regular with a fair amount of leather I’d greed the weapon 
balmy condor
Hmm, 220 weapon in vault, but 213 raid belt sims higher. I feel like i should ta...
Seems reasonable
sonic wind
Weapon in vault is a nice luck, though
rigid wyvern
Weapon it is
sonic wind
I also had 220 dagger from vault, but before there were like 4 weeks of trash loot
The problem is that M+ itself is also not so rewarding(
stoic needle
rigid wyvern
Nice
stoic needle
why is it that the less keys i do, the better loot i get 
stoic needle
every week that i do 10 keys i get absolute trash garbage in my vault
this week i did 4 and that's what i get
balmy condor
Imagine doing more than 1 key instead of playing new path of exile season tbh
balmy condor
Smh
If you don’t have time
Just make time
Don’t you have an ancient artifact from the ruins of Greece that allows you to dilate time around you
No? Just me?
spice spire
finally a fucking weapon
W
rigid wyvern
whatya playing in PoE whispyr
rigid wyvern
lol trying out new raider?
balmy condor
Nah, I’m playing slayer
I’ll do something with raider probably
Just haven’t decided what
rigid wyvern
also got good buffs so thats fair
stoic needle
W
H
I think i played PoE a bit a couple years ago but i've forgotten basically everything about the game and it seems like i missed quite a bit
sonic wind
I remember when PoE came out, it had talents tree with the size of the planet earth
storm onyx
PoE ❤️
rigid wyvern
Jokes on you they only added more talent trees
frozen forge
strange python
POE is a game where you can get into it easily if you follow a guide and ahve a friend who knows what they are doing
spice spire
Sim it.
stoic needle
I played a shit ton of diablo 3 back around launch
But poe is like so much better
I love hardcore mode
strange python
yea poe is a lot better
toxic tusk
I’m back into Dark Souls.
dim mirage
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
dim mirage
thank you moroes
stoic needle
@balmy condor what did you mean by " Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery is an outdated concept"
balmy condor
I don’t think generalizations like that are accurate enough or reflect the shifting nature of stats to be worth the effort
dim mirage
its more of a "what is the safest zoldyck stat combo to make"
balmy condor
Stats change based on all sorts of situations, aoe, cleave, single target, your current gear, legendaries to some extent, etc
spice spire
I mean stat priorities are fluid correct? Like st the moment I have 760ish haste which pushes crit to the top stat.
stoic needle
Yeah that makes sense
balmy condor
I mean stat priorities are fluid correct? Like st the moment I have 760ish haste...
The bis list actually has vers > crit > haste = mast
stoic needle
Mine seems to love mastery for some reason
spice spire
Really? Would that be because dashing itself helps with energy regen?
And that’s our primary reason to prioritize haste at the moment?
balmy condor
But there might be times when you actually want a piece with mastery
balmy condor
Really? Would that be because dashing itself helps with energy regen?
That’s with dashing as well as with zoldyck
spice spire
Oh! That’s interesting.
balmy condor
It’s just a byproduct of optimized stats
When I resimmed with gems added, it actually switched the ring enchants to crit as well
Keeping the haste gems
stoic needle
How degenerate am I for keeping gems in my bags and regemming between fights and raid/m+
balmy condor
Very
stoic needle
They cost less than a potion though lmao
stoic needle
Yeah it's not a ton
balmy condor
We love vers, yeah
toxic tusk
...
I haven’t checked this often, but I’ve been slowly trying to get rid of my vers gear for haste/crit
stoic needle
damn i'm almost about to break 5k sim dps
dim mirage
mfw i have to sim stat weights in my sub gear to help figure which legendary stats to use because i dont have assassin legendaries 
dim mirage
yeah 😢
balmy condor
Haste/crit is fine
toxic tusk
@balmy condor do you mind if I throw you a pm for random ass questions?
..not questions about asses.
Wait holy shit that works
dim mirage
top gear (with 210 zoldyck) showed haste vers like 20 dps below mastery so i was like "let me see waht stat eights say"
toxic tusk
More like a guy who smokes too much weed with adhd.
balmy condor
Dude perfect that’s already better than half this server
dim mirage
my trains of thought are always flawless. the train is derailed, but flawless
toxic tusk
I have a weird thing with learning where it takes a bit, like, I get hung up if I don’t understand part of why we do something. I think I asked earlier, but things like should I use shiv when I already have max combo points or wait until they’re used. And why.
balmy condor
Yeh all good
If you’re not comfortable asking here I’ll do it in a DM no problem
I usually suggest that people just ask here instead
toxic tusk
As long as you guys don’t mind me asking stuff that’s probably been asked before I’m totally cool.
I just didn’t want to clog up the channel with potentially dumb shit.
toxic tusk
If I posted some logs from our raids, you guys be able to take a look at me and let me know if I’m here I should be, fucking something up royally, etc? Or is that a subjective type thing.
I’m in a casual raiding guild and to be honest, even though they don’t care I’m worried about holding stuff back. So if I can bump up my stuff or be told I’m doing around what I should be, that’d be amazing.
balmy condor
I did like 6-7 log reviews a week at the start of the tier
But those are like actually involved
Quick glances and stuff for mistakes are usually much easier in conversation through a spec channel and stuff
toxic tusk
I feel like I know what I’m doing but if I had to write it down I’d be lost.
I’m going to run some stuff today and I’ll make a note of what I’m doing.
balmy condor
Sounds good
toxic tusk
I appreciate it.
The basics are, I keep a 2-3 point slice up, 5 point rupture (or Kyrian point), envenom at 4 or 5 to not waste mutilate points, shiv on cool down (minus the question I asked about it), and I’ve been using blindside over master poisoner for the last little while.
frozen jasper
i try to use snd with 4-5 CP otherwise its the same for me.. just so you dont need to worry about snd that often
balmy condor
Should finish at 4-5 even for slice
toxic tusk
There’s a dumb question. Can rupture crit?
toxic tusk
I was using slice n dice on a shorter duration as I picked up the conduit that heals you as you do it. This is just to help out the raid though.
frozen jasper
well it heals you regardless of CP spent or doesnt it ?
toxic tusk
Opener uses Master Assassin and has me opening with ambush, mutilate and rupture if it gives me five points, or slice n dice if it gives me four. Not sure why I do it. After that it’s Kyrian ability, shiv and garrotte. Then the rotation starts.
balmy condor
That conduit works when slice is up, not based on cast
So you would still cast with 4-5 cp
toxic tusk
You’re right. Shit.
balmy condor
Opener uses Master Assassin and has me opening with ambush, mutilate and rupture...
Don’t use ambush without a blindside proc
toxic tusk
It heals for like 35 seconds regardless of points used.
Even with the opening guaranteed crit?
balmy condor
It heals for like 35 seconds regardless of points used.
It heals for the duration of slice and dice
balmy condor
Even with the opening guaranteed crit?
Yes
toxic tusk
What’s the reason for not? And what should I switch it for?
frozen jasper
MUT
toxic tusk
..fair. Mut might enable blindside.
frozen jasper
mut is same energy cost and has a chance with blindside to give free ambush
- double poison
balmy condor
The reason for not using ambush naturally is kinda complicated but the short form is basically combo point thresholds
You would want to mutilate even without blindside
It’s a little weird
toxic tusk
Make ambush great again.
balmy condor
But the combo point thing is most of the weirdness
toxic tusk
Kind of makes it feel like a useless talent when I look at it like that vs what it sounds like it’s supposed to be
balmy condor
Well the talent is great
toxic tusk
Oh god yeah.
toxic tusk
But when I picture a rogue, I picture opening with ambush being like, what you do
balmy condor
That are kinda trash
toxic tusk
Does that make sense?
balmy condor
Yeah
toxic tusk
Surprise massive damage out of literally no where.
balmy condor
You’re not the only one that’s been confused about it
toxic tusk
Good to know. I’ve been using ambush as an opener and during my vanishes since I started raiding.
strange python
Blizz lost their way on rogue class fantasy long ago
toxic tusk
I love the idea of the outlaw rogue. I just don’t want to be an outlaw rogue.
I even look like an outlaw rogue.
strange python
I personally, and this will be an unpopular opinion, think rogues should only be sub and sin and outlaw should be removed lol. I want it to be replaced by a tank spec. And demon hunters to never have existed.
So like I’m crazy
But it’s a fun crazy
frozen jasper
rogue tank sounds like fun lol
strange python
Also rogues should be able to mog glaives and dh shouldnt
Tanking rogues should be dual wield swords
toxic tusk
I feel that way about monks.
strange python
Or slow weps I should say
I like monks much more than dh
Brewmaster is an awesome concept
Stagger is amazing
Tho rogues could be brewmasters honestly
Stagger damage
Drink shit to stay alive
toxic tusk
Life imitates art.. or, WoW.
toxic tusk
Added 30 pounds.
strange python
No that was quarantine
toxic tusk
..I didn’t come here to face my problems
strange python
I’d be ok with getting rid of paladins too actually
Because they’re imitation rogues
toxic tusk
It’s a different hate too. I also hate paladins too
frozen jasper
I'd say get rid of DH and give some of that aoe utility to rogues
frozen jasper
would be nice if we had a finisher jumping around between five enemies slicing everyone up
strange python
Except that outlaw is burst aoe and sustain
toxic tusk
Crimson Tempest?
frozen jasper
yeah but thats a talent and it lacks the jumping part 😄
gleaming eagle
Crimson tempest is nice
toxic tusk
We literally jump up and slice people up. They even bleed.
frozen jasper
Crimson tempest is nice
yea i like it as well
toxic tusk
Oh shit did they get rid of the jump?
frozen jasper
i was kinda just talking about animation ^^
toxic tusk
You used to like launch in the air and come down, or something. I’m a returning player.
gilded solstice
I def use Crimson Tempest during fortified. I went Poison Bomb this week and it went pretty well tho
gleaming eagle
But my rupture tooltip didn't change
frozen jasper
You used to like launch in the air and come down, or something. I’m a returning ...
i think you are talking about dead from above maybe ? which is a pvp talent afaik
frozen jasper
no worries
strange python
Current state of the game: sub-pvp burst, outlaw - all pve content, aoe, sustain, cd burst, etc. sin - rpers and raid leaders
frozen jasper
Current state of the game: sub-pvp burst, outlaw - all pve content, aoe, sustain...
lmao
gilded solstice
thats about right lol
strange python
DFA sub was the best rogue spec that has ever existed
gleaming eagle
nah sin can def fight in pvp
strange python
For pve content
Sin is rbg spec
Fair enough
Maybe some 3s but idk why you’d ever take sin over sub in arena tbh
You just want to do hard mode arena maybe
toxic tusk
Back in... was it wrath or bc when armour pen was huge
strange python
Wrath
toxic tusk
Wrath.
strange python
Well both really
gleaming eagle
3s and rbg we do ok
toxic tusk
I switched over to play combat rogue and got a ton of armour pen. Hoooly shit it was amazing.
gleaming eagle
Can make it work
strange python
Seems like itd require some misplays to be good
And heaven help you I’ve you encounter a kyrian
If*
Point is dfa sub
Bring it back
Wait rogues are balanced in dps and having fun?
Make it a pvp talent
last path
hows assa doing?
toxic tusk
We hate ourselves but hate everyone more.
I’m having a good time with it. It does take some work though to keep up.
stoic needle
It's viable
last path
in m+?
stoic needle
Slightly less so but still serviceable
gleaming eagle
Everything
stoic needle
Depends on how high keys you do
I'm gonna be top dps in my raid after this weapon upgrade
last path
how do u open on st and aoe?
prisma monolithBOT
stoic needle
Any one of these has it
The short is, never open with ambush, get SnD and rupture up ASAP
knotty sparrow
hey can someone share that macro for blindside/mutilate
stoic needle
There isn't one
knotty sparrow
it looks like this (backstab/shadowstrike)
#showtooltip
/startattack
/cast [stance] Shadowstrike; Backstab
knotty sparrow
oh?
stoic needle
Blindside isn't a stance
ebon wyvern
u cant track blindside w macros
knotty sparrow
aw damn
stoic needle
Just bind it to a key, sin doesn't have that many buttons
balmy condor
Does versatility effect our tooltip? <@167090536602140682>
Yes, It does
royal lantern
or make a shift modifirer macro togheter with mut
so can use shift+mut key for ambush on procs
stoic needle
Yeah that's a good one
balmy condor
hey can someone share that macro for blindside/mutilate
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
placid dawn
Man, just use another keybind, it's not that hard
novel star
i've always had my stealth buttons on an entirely seperate bar
using ctrl 1-5
because the main bar changing annoys the FUCK out of me
i cant stand it
placid dawn
Just put ambush on a non stealth bar
spice spire
Ambush is on R, garrote on E. What can I say, I’m galactic brained
light kestrel
Almost as bad as people who put flash on D
novel star
assuming thats a league reference
if you flash on F youre just wrong
F is for smite and ignite
😡
novel star
D flash gang
light kestrel
F for flash, D is for da ignite/heal/etc
novel star
this is how my bars are set up btw, in reference to the separate ambush thing
keybinds hidden so i dont get made fun of for having some weird ass binds
and also its slightly off because im still setting up elvui but mostly its the same
mutilate through rupture is 1-5 and the smol bar down the bottom is ctrl1-5
light kestrel
Pandaren? Checks out
novel star
having one button activate a different ability depending on circumstances has always made me incredibly upset
light kestrel
you just gotta pray there's something down there to step to, ez pz
Or have your friend go first
novel star
Or have your friend go first
haha yeah all of those friends that i have
light kestrel
I'm not saying it's connected
novel star
Also panda females have the best rogue animations, for sure
light kestrel
But you DO have flash on D
light kestrel
It's ok, I'll accept you anyway
novel star
light kestrel
Worgen stealth animation is top tier though
light kestrel
Free mount in the maw op, although now I have the torghast mount so...
novel star
true true
balmy condor
haste crit and haste vers are both fine
toxic tusk
Mastery.
novel star
Mastery on sin is kind of bad now, no?
balmy condor
yes
vivid shuttle
guess I'll stick with Vers since I bought it already haha
novel star
i know haste/mast was best in bfa but i thought it sucked in sl
vivid shuttle
thanks yall
toxic tusk
Mastery isn’t good, I said it but couldn’t think of a joke to follow it with.
spice spire
@balmy condor I need some sim help, it doesn’t seem right
200 raid trinket is simming higher than a 220 Anima Battery for our outlaw rogue, is that correct?
novel star
Also a completely unrelated thing but i decided to stop being a stubborn boomer and try out the new blindside on some target dummies
it feels actually really good
sad i was ignoring it until now
balmy condor
200 raid trinket is simming higher than a 220 Anima Battery for our outlaw rogue...
sounds pretty reasonable, which raid trinket?
toxic tusk
Right? It’s like, physically satisfying to use.
spice spire
Inerva trinket.
balmy condor
oh
novel star
Right? It’s like, physically satisfying to use.
mhm.
balmy condor
yes for sure
toxic tusk
Maybe because it doesn’t interrupt your energy bar.
balmy condor
inerva trinket is very strong
novel star
free combo points with no energy cost feels great
😋
Also the ambush animation just fucks ass. but that might be a panda only thing.
vivid shuttle
Wish we had more free procs
vivid shuttle
slow energy is pain
novel star
i dont mind energy not being super fast tbf
toxic tusk
Do you guys have phantom fire in your rotation?
novel star
if its too slow its fucked but its not awful right now
toxic tusk
And oils are yes, right?
novel star
having to pool sometimes is fun
balmy condor
Do you guys have phantom fire in your rotation?
agi pot gang
toxic tusk
...that’s not English
balmy condor
Run this under your import in an advanced sim, will give you every combination under the sun https://pastebin.com/0CnXcRR1
toxic tusk
You want me to do what with that? Keep in mind I downloaded weak auras like a month ago. Honestly, game changer.
novel star
I only use weakauras to make outlaw buffs braindead
toxic tusk
I always found shiv hard to notice. Now when it’s ready it’s a big bright glowing square.
novel star
and i used it on my WW but i dont really play it anymore
to track the hit combo stuff
cause me brain no big
toxic tusk
Raidbots?
I have bigwigs, dbm, weak auras, bartender and... I think that’s almost it?
Gtfo as well.
balmy condor
aha
so you don't simulate
well, I'm about to add another game changer to your list
toxic tusk
There was another one called maxdps which showed you with a circle what to use when. I know it’s a dumb hill to die on but I felt like I was cheating.
Oh! I’ve got simcraft or whatever it’s called.
toxic tusk
But I don’t use it/don’t know how.
balmy condor
okay
I'll give you a super SUPER quick tldr
in game, type /simc into your chat
will pull up some spooky looking text
toxic tusk
How spooky
novel star
pretty spooky
balmy condor
depends on your level of code knowledge
balmy condor
overall though
novel star
like a 8 out of 10 if you dont look at big lists of raw text very much
balmy condor
that's not important in any way
toxic tusk
I do have a programmer good friend who plays though.
toxic tusk
Oh that! Right.
balmy condor
what that means is in no way important
toxic tusk
Oh I can understand it
It’s a text readout if your character and what they’re wearing.
balmy condor
pretty much yeah
toxic tusk
Stats and stuff.
balmy condor
so then you go to https://www.raidbots.com/simbot
that's simulationcraft, but as a cloud based service
out of these options
95% of the time, you're using top gear
the rest are kinda whatever imo, because top gear will handle pretty much everything and stat weights aren't useful
droptimizer is fine, but it doesn't really give you THAT useful information imo
in this case we're going to advanced
will look like this
so we just paste in the /simc from earlier
now we have 1 copy
the pastebin from earlier has every combination of potion/food/stone/oil that's possible
so we take that pastebin, copy paste under that
now we got 61 copies
toxic tusk
What is a copy in this sense?
balmy condor
(if you don't pay for raidbots, you won't be able to run more than 60 I believe, that's easily rectified by taking out one of the block that has "exorcisms" as the name, those potions suck anyway and won't make it towards the top)
toxic tusk
Like combinations of what you can do?
balmy condor
a copy is a different state of character in this situation
toxic tusk
Oh, so running all the possibilities kind of deal
balmy condor
yeah
knotty sparrow
5000 iterations * 61 copies = 305,000 iterations
balmy condor
there's 61 different possibilities, one being the base (which is copied in the pastebin for consistency), and the other 60 being all the combinations
knotty sparrow
so its doing 5k iter for each copy
balmy condor
yes
5k iterations
that's how it gets accurate results for each copy
you can think of it as running into a 5 minute fight (with variance), 5000 times
balmy condor
iterations = fights being run
copies = versions of your character being simulated
each copy needs iterations in order to be accurate
toxic tusk
It runs the possible outcomes of the fight X number of times and tells you the results
knotty sparrow
each iteration is like youre cooking a recipe, banana bread, and it measures how tasty the banana bread is each time. it does this for 61 different recipes, changing a little bit of sugar/egg/bananas each time
toxic tusk
And that way you can choose the iteration that works best?
balmy condor
sure
it'll tell you
so I'm just gonna hit run
after pasting that underneath
and then it'll do its thing
(it's actually doing more than 5k iterations, don't worry about that, it's a little wonky with how it tries to reach an accurate margin of error)
toxic tusk
I do remember my buddy showing me me this now. Especially with Patchwerk being the dummy.
balmy condor
there's actually a "Target Dummy" fight option, which is literally a target dummy
toxic tusk
But I had no idea what he was doing, so this is insanely helpful
balmy condor
but yeah, patchwerk is essentially the same
aight so that sim finished cooking
(I pay for raidbots mind you, you'll probably have to wait in a queue first)
and it spits all the combinations back to me
toxic tusk
Paying for it probably isn’t worth while if I’m not even heroic raiding eh?
balmy condor
that's up to you and how much you use it
toxic tusk
Fair point.
balmy condor
technically you can share accounts like you would a hulu or netflix
but I have to state that I as a moderator of a server such as this would never condone account sharing
toxic tusk
Very fair point. Doesn’t really matter what level someone wants to raid. Let them have fun.
balmy condor
since account sharing is very bad and wrong
toxic tusk
You should write a song about how you don’t share accounts, that way people will know that you don’t.
And if you’ve never watched always sunny that reference sounds dumb
balmy condor
that being said, premium accounts can actually enable benefits to a discord server for certain roles and ranks
balmy condor
the discord bot for raidbots is uh
not great though
since it lacks the ability to take a /simc string
which is the entire point
fleet whale
I have that Lethal poisons WPS combo going
rotund oak
Hey ma dudes,how much haste are we aiming for? 'bout 20% or we need more?
fleet whale
there is no magic number for haste
echo cargo
the magic number for being competitive is 59%
fleet whale
keep stacking it as long as it's simming best for you
echo cargo
that's when we catch up to sub and outlaw xdd
rotund oak
i will but im on like 19% now and it has the same weight as vers or slightly less
just wanna know if DS is a choice after a certain point
fleet whale
i think DS is really only a thing if you are running Dashing leggo and really geared
but if you're running zoldyck, vigor is still the go to
rotund oak
ye im with zoldycks
balmy condor
DS is a thing with zoldyck on very heavy haste setups at around 220 ilvl
heady willow
Yo peeps! Just switched to assa. Is there any good assa guides out there thats up to date 🙂 ?
rotund oak
Was hoping for some mad padding but its fine as it is
although it would make sense to go DS ill test it again adn again but odds are ill stay on vigor
thx alot
balmy condor
Yo peeps! Just switched to assa. Is there any good assa guides out there thats u...
all in the pins, or using this command here
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
heady willow
@balmy condor Thanks a lot man ❤️
strange python
I have 220 pants and 200 boots pants have leech should i make pants just because eventually pants will be replaced anyway?
stoic needle
Are you going to be raiding mythic anytime soon?
strange python
i am heroic only
mortal tartan
i would make boots
stoic needle
Or doing 12+ keys
lament flint
Hey guys I want ass to be my off spec. Fuck sub. I have 210 MA, should I just use this or create a 190 zoldycks with the ash I currently have
stoic needle
I would go for the pants because you can upgrade those to 235, and you can get a pair of 220 boots from the vault if you do a 10 key every week
stoic needle
Hey guys I want ass to be my off spec. Fuck sub. I have 210 MA, should I just us...
You should make zoldyck
lament flint
Alright poggers
I could make it 210 but I would have to do both torghast before raid today and I prob won’t
long haven
How much overall dps you guys pull in 12ish keys?
lament flint
Honestly I have like shit haste somehow but lots of Vera so I will need to swap gear a bit
spice spire
How much overall dps you guys pull in 12ish keys?
Depends on role, if I’m on “ST duty on tyrannical”, it ends up being comically low. If I’m on normal duty, it’s a bit better.
ST: about 2.8-3.2k
Normal: 3.4-4.2k
I’m also bad though
agile storm
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
I get similar numbers to makeitquake
I hate tyrranical weeks
But I get close to 4k or more on the bosses depending on pride or not so at least I'm doing something
stoic needle
honestly all three specs gear kind of similarly
Haste is pretty low value for sub but really good for sin and solid for OL
mortal tartan
is sin good in 3v3s
sonic wind
I don't undestand why Sin's AOE is so bad
balmy condor
and I don't understand why you think its so bad
sonic wind
Every run melee attacks have greater damage than anything else, even if you spam FoK
balmy condor
balmy condor
that's definitely a you problem
sonic wind
That use Kyrian ability and burns mob passively for all of my damage
gleaming eagle
Sin aoe is good
balmy condor
no spec in the game loses to any tank
on burst? sure
but on an entire dungeon?
no
raven egret
mobs definetly should live long enough for you to get damage out
balmy condor
should definitely be beating the tank
strange python
he's just playing with an absolute PUMPER
sonic wind
I always garrote 4 mobs, then spam FoK, SnD, then AOE bleed, then again spam FoK, and rupture everything, etc.
gleaming eagle
You need crimson temp
sonic wind
It's possible to outdamage DH tank
sonic wind
But if I remove melee from damage
balmy condor
yikers
sonic wind
I can't
gleaming eagle
Aoe won't be as good without crimson temp
sonic wind
Yeah, AOE bleed is CT probably
Didn't know the name in English
So 4 garrotes, FoK, SnD, FoK, CT, FoK, Rupture, etc.
Is this a good rotation?
balmy condor
seems fine
stoic needle
In dungeons melee is usually tied with garotte and rupture for me
With ct being highest
balmy condor
that's probably fine
stoic needle
Maybe you have a lot of vers
raven egret
overall is very dependant on dungeon
balmy condor
yeah
stoic needle
It's not a good metric
spice spire
If it’s under a 7, the kyrian pally and monk kill everything before I can bleed, so he ends up ahead of me :^)
spice spire
On 10+ I outdamage him by a bit
gleaming eagle
Poison bomb needs to be baseline
spice spire
It’s just the aoe burst is extremely powerful
stoic needle
Yeah
spice spire
Stupid adds die too quickly 
fallow solar
Kind of want to run sin just for fun even though my haste is only like 7%, could I get away with it you think?
gleaming eagle
Using ct means less envenom though
stoic needle
Fleurs perhaps you are putting up too many bleeds and not using enough envenom
balmy condor
Kind of want to run sin just for fun even though my haste is only like 7%, could...
yes
raven egret
on aoe envenom isnt that important
sonic wind
I think CT should be baseline
spice spire
Kind of want to run sin just for fun even though my haste is only like 7%, could...
Gonna be rough dog ngl. But you absolutely can
sonic wind
It's just strange that Sub has AOE finisher, but Sin not
novel star
I think CT should be baseline
We all do
stoic needle
True, but if the mobs aren't living through the duration of all the dots envenom would be more efficient
I agree with that through
raven egret
garrote cp as talent when
stoic needle
It doesn't make sense that we don't have a baseline aoe finisher
balmy condor
It doesn't make sense that we don't have a baseline aoe finisher
would be fine if cp gen were higher
novel star
poison bomb filling that purpose would be cool, i think
or poison bomb builder
either one
i just want to be able to press poison bomb
instead of it being boring as fuck
raven egret
poison bomb doing anything would be cool
novel star
;p
spice spire
poison bomb doing anything would be cool
It does uh. 2% of my ST!
That’s something, right?!
raven egret
I really wouldn't mind if CT was a gain on st
just so I could have a last row talented
novel star
i dont like crimson tempest st
duration too low
feels like youre punishing yourself every time you use an envenom cause theres just no time for it
balmy condor
with the current cp gen
was a pain with old CP gen as well
raven egret
atleast you had 80% haste
light kestrel
Blood of the assassinated baseline as a proc chance on envenom to empower the next garrote or rupture cast would be dope
lament flint
I was on wowhead and it shows eviscerate as an ability for ass? Do we ever use it in the rotation
toxic tusk
So remember when I made that joke about mastery being priority?
raven egret
eviscerate is envenom
balmy condor
I was on wowhead and it shows eviscerate as an ability for ass? Do we ever use i...
sin has envenom
lament flint
I am just switching to it as offspec so I have no idea
toxic tusk
Son of a birch.
novel star
I am just switching to it as offspec so I have no idea
envenom replaces eviscerate very early in the levelling path