you hearth out after fight
#assassination
tulip tide
i was so hoping that the perforated veins (sub conduit that pumps backstab/gloomblade) with the rotten, and even gloomblade and the shadow dmg one, would be a thing
i mean imagine seeing gloomblade being picked
strange python
bro this is wow, we don't get to wish for anything but static damage procs to be better
raven egret
all options in that row are pretty shit tbh
tulip tide
yuup..
raven egret
wepmaster is ok
balmy condor
i was so hoping that the perforated veins (sub conduit that pumps backstab/gloom...
you got a weird thing for awful combinations don't you
tulip tide
🙃
tulip tide
i guess coming into the assassination channel, wishing for obnoxious rotations isn't the best idea lul
balmy condor
I'm just meming on you
strange python
you'll need to start by convincing the devs to change those last 2 talent rows
balmy condor
but yeah idk
strange python
and just make alacrity baseline for rogues
balmy condor
pretty much every combination has been tested
tulip tide
but yeah.. i really like the idea of weird interactions that turn out to be busted
balmy condor
yeah, rogue theorycrafting community is very robust
those don't fly under the radar like in the priest community
no flame @ priest
tulip tide
lol
strange python
ooff
strange python
lol
dense cedar
strange python
hey btw guise, mastery is good
tulip tide
speaking of baseline.. can we get rid of shroud and get an actual group buff?
dense cedar
!!!
opaque bay
Some other class discords suffer similar fates @balmy condor 😩
dense cedar
Gonna make a prediction
strange python
If there is a tier set next raid
halt! stop right there criminal scum!
they've already confirmed that the sets will be visuals
strange python
I know, it's sad hey
tulip tide
wait what, as in no bonuses?
dense cedar
what a fucking meme
tulip tide
wait can you link me to the source of that? i completely missed that
fleet whale
they haven't confirmed it either way
strange python
when azerite gear was first announced I was hyped, I THOUGHT the options would essentially be choosing from a list of who's who in the list of old tier sets
but alas
fleet whale
they said they were looking into just cosmetic tier bonuses, but they never confirmed it nor did they write off set bonuses
dense cedar
imagine choosing things
strange python
ion did varolyn in one of his latest water cooler type discussions
raven egret
"hey farm island for 500 hours to use ur gear ok"
fleet whale
everything ion says is literally "they are looking into it"
he's a lawyer... he knows how to talk
strange python
I was waiting for his addition to the sentence
it didn't come
he was pretty hard and fast about that one
tulip tide
i mean, when you think about it, would they ever actually make multiple viable options in a borrowed talent tree balanced?
they can't even make interesting talents on the base talent tree
i mean look at the fucking sub tree, we still have [Night Terrors] ??????
strange python
he might pull the, "I never said specifically that there WOULDN'T be"
but
history shows otherwise
fleet whale
link to the interview
dense cedar
Night Terrors seems fine
tulip tide
30% slow when you already have crippling?
dense cedar
why do u have crippling?
tulip tide
what, just so you can run mindnumbing?
strange python
why wouldn't you be running mindnumbing by default?
tulip tide
i mean i am
strange python
I change to crippling under 2 circumstances
1 pvp
2 first boss on plaguefall and for some fucking reason we have no slows
tulip tide
i just think that pray on the weak should be better utility on those packs?
literally amplifying dmg, since you throw out stuns if you're out of interrupts - or even shot in the dark for a free stun (and can even get a free cp if low on energy when dance is ending)
dense cedar
I use Cheap Tricks
tulip tide
so adding a 30% aoe stun, when you could have 50% when you need it (and you can swap between packs) just feels extremely lackluster
mortal tartan
you are better off with the damage bonus from stuns
if you desperately needed slows you'd take a class with better slows lol
tulip tide
exactly
dense cedar
rogue should have tar trap
strange python
rogue should have a lot of things
tulip tide
any of you watched the infexious video he just put out?
strange python
poor vid creators
they have a hard time, but they bring it on themselves as much as they don't
balmy condor
oh he's ESPECIALLY a meme in #assassination specifically
dense cedar
My fav rogue content creator is Whispyr
creating the content known as
this channel
balmy condor
he's notorious for pretty much just reading off the theorycrafted guides, but then throwing in weird tips and anecdotal stuff on top of it, which is just nonsense
tulip tide
but either way, i think he made some interesting points regarding the state of rogues in SL
basically lack of vital buffs, especially in raiding, and that since dungeons are balanced around not having too good skips, even shroud is underwhelming
strange python
If I ever started making vids I'd have a consistent #subjecttochange and #inmyexperience flashing on the screen just as a standard statement cover
dense cedar
Just make videos that are incredibely wrong
balmy condor
there's a reason why youtube content for wow is so sparse
dense cedar
and be confident about them
mortal tartan
i saw one video by some guy who was giving tips on how to track your shadow technique as sub, wanting you to count autos
dense cedar
that way you can basically nuke the spec channels
mortal tartan
when you could just download a wa
balmy condor
when you could just download a wa
but why, when you could just count your autos
fleet whale
Preach pumps out videos consistently
balmy condor
dense cedar
Who @fleet whale
fleet whale
Preach gaming
strange python
it's like saying "40% crit is what I've found works best for me" is VERY DIFFERENT to "you need 40% crit"
dense cedar
idk who that is
balmy condor
yeah, but preach doesn't make class-specific videos
fleet whale
he's one of the more popular wow youtubers
balmy condor
he's more state of the game type things
fleet whale
his videos are more on wow as a whole
dense cedar
sure sure @fleet whale
balmy condor
which is a lot easier to get right
and a lot more opinion
if you're making class guides on youtube, you're kinda fucked
dense cedar
Whispyr
mortal tartan
look up palumor
dense cedar
Do you like dogs?
mortal tartan
his videos are like red arrow clickbait vids about rogue
strange python
even pika has tried to not make guide vids for the most part
and he sure as fuck knows what he's talking aobut when it comes to pvp
fleet whale
there are some decent pvp wow vids
strange python
because guide vids in a one way conversation are hard
fleet whale
for pve though they are hard to fine
balmy condor
his videos are like red arrow clickbait vids about rogue
surprisingly not that bad from what I've seen, but very general
mortal tartan
its not bad but its so padded
fleet whale
Naguura has recently been making wow videos now too
mortal tartan
all his information you could find on wowhead if you really cared
tulip tide
even pika has tried to not make guide vids for the most part
and he sure as fuck...
I honestly feel like pika "just plays the game" and copies everyone else, when he actually goes into some theorycrafting mode it's like an absolute meltdown lmao
dense cedar
@mortal tartan why is his character race changed every fucking 3 weeks
fleet whale
Pika is one of the best rogues in the world
tulip tide
(and the MA bracers was originally just for memes for 2s streaming, which just so happened to be the play once ER got nerfed)
strange python
he has a lot of knowledge when it comes to how to play
fleet whale
he doesn't just "copy everyone else"
whole falcon
Is poison bomb damage affected by Zoldyck’s execute range?
strange python
he just doesn't like to state it out loud because of the pitfalls of how things come across without editting
dense cedar
Probably @whole falcon
whole falcon
Ty
tulip tide
I understand that he is, that's not what i'm saying
i'm just saying that he is extremely mechanically good, but doesn't seem to put an awful lot of thinkng into theorycrafting, and just runs with the stream
strange python
when you're in a one sided conversation about specific min/max shit you suddenly find yourself saying things like "take rupture off your bar" and then you have issues really fast
dense cedar
PvP isn't real anyways
fleet whale
You don't really run "sims" in pvp
tulip tide
I know 🙂
raven egret
when you're in a one sided conversation about specific min/max shit you suddenly...
take rupture off bar till ur 3k io
:)
strange python
but you DO theorycraft specific itterations in openers and such in pvp
fleet whale
yeah you do a little bit
dense cedar
If you see an assassination rogue use rupture
tulip tide
but after the 2nd round of rogue nerfs, and pvp rogues were on suicide watch, he did some wonky theorycrafting
dense cedar
u can tell that they are a noob
fleet whale
but it's not the same as it is in pve
dense cedar
and should be banned from your groups
tulip tide
but it's not the same as it is in pve
I know.. 🙂
fleet whale
some sub rogues unironically want rupture to be off their bars
like they want the spec to be in a state where you don't have to cast it
dense cedar
tbh
They should've kept the effect as rupture
but made it look like the other one
that i've now forgotten the name
fleet whale
nightblade
dense cedar
I like when spec buttons look different
fleet whale
you can macro the icon
strange python
but after the 2nd round of rogue nerfs, and pvp rogues were on suicide watch, h...
I think the biggest difference there is in vids centered around pvp we EXPECT some hyperbole, so saying dumb shit is fine, it's viewed as sarcasm or satire as a standard
In pve vids hyperbole doesn't play off the same way, and when viewed by people who actually need the help turns into bad gospel
fleet whale
on rupture
dense cedar
True
fleet whale
the icon still exists
dense cedar
But its not the same
mortal tartan
i never played sub when nightblade was a thing but wtf was it for
fleet whale
the animation is also very similar
mortal tartan
it was like a healing reduc wasn't it?
dense cedar
My Sinister Strike is macro'd to look like Saber Slash
fleet whale
only difference is that nightblade had a small purple spell effect
dense cedar
Nightblade was a dot that also did a damage amp
tulip tide
I think the biggest difference there is in vids centered around pvp we EXPECT so...
Yeah ofc, but I wasn't talking about the comparison between the two, either. I was just simply pointing out that although pika is an extremely mechanically skilled player, and one of the best rogues int he world, that he still just went with what the other rogues are doing (usually whaaz or akro on EU)
dense cedar
Anyone here like knives?
raven egret
im a fan of knives
dense cedar
strange python
Yeah ofc, but I wasn't talking about the comparison between the two, either. I w...
I mean they weren't things he wasn't doing already, just things he wasn't CURRENTLY doing
he does a lot of memy shit
pika and xaryu do a lot of content that is really "for the views"
rather than "I need a headband for all this sweat"
tulip tide
yup indeed
strange python
Preach ahs been asked on stream often to why he doesn't make spec guides
he says straight out that the best place to head is into places like this disc and such
because vids become outdated and/or miss the "minusha" of min max
strange python
there's a lot to be said for the math nerds in our game I guess 😛
tulip tide
i mean idk about you guys, but i get all my info from noxxic.com 
tulip tide
lmao
strange python
you'll wake the greens up
tulip tide
i remember seeing that site for the first time, many years ago, thinking it had to be good just because it looked good compared to the other sites
tulip tide
lmao
strange python
my god, the day that some dude told foreverguy that outlaw was trash without vigor because noxxic...
holy shit
tulip tide
i mean they haven't updated since early bfa, right?
strange python
the wrath
raven egret
dense cedar
@tulip tide has "bis" gear for SL
tulip tide
jesus fuck, really?
raven egret
they also use EP as assa
dense cedar
@raven egret Check the stat prio for Sin rogue
strange python
actually that WAS right while we still had the HoA stuff
tulip tide
i swear that they just updated the tag but didn't change the content.. right? right? i mean surely?
strange python
maybe you're right
raven egret
i hope youre right
strange python
maybe it hasn't changed since prepatch?
or maybe I shouldn't even consider defending any aspect about it?
raven egret
tulip tide
but then again they have NS talented and don't even mention vanish in the rotation
raven egret
bis
plain thistle
please tell me you dont have noxxic open
balmy condor
can we fucking stop
raven egret
what i get all info from this great site
balmy condor
with the noxxic garbage
balmy condor
I'lll purge if I have to
dense cedar
What talent setup do u think for Torg? @balmy condor
balmy condor
look away to help a poor soul for 5 minutes and we're just throwing noxxic around
smh
strange python
I'd actually prefer if noone ever mentioned it and maybe it will just get forgotten
balmy condor
What talent setup do u think for Torg? <@!167090536602140682>
MP is good, leeching for sure, CT for sure
strange python
instead of some newbie going "oooh I wonder what this website is googles"
balmy condor
I would take subterfuge as well, but I guess there's a case to be made for MA if you're going zoldyck
dense cedar
Does Nightstalker affect vein rippers?
strange python
I take nightstalker because "running faster is fucking fun"
dense cedar
lmao
balmy condor
why did you think
dense cedar
yikes
balmy condor
that was a good idea
tulip tide
sorry..
dense cedar
I love how fucking shit the Shadowblade powers are for outlaw most of the time
compared to sin or sub
balmy condor
yeah
balmy condor
oh you mean the talent powers?
balmy condor
I mean, sin ones aren't really that great imo
balmy condor
yeah outlaws are probably worse
dense cedar
Dancing steel and acrobatic strikes don't feel too hot as talent rewards
or loaded dice
strange python
you mean in torgh?
dense cedar
its not too bad actually
strange python
most of the time in torgh I'm just looking for FAT AS FUCK stat boosters and first steps stuff
balmy condor
I don't keep up on the hot talent thoerycrafting on shit specs
raven egret
worse but not horrible
dense cedar
in regular gameplay is not thaaat much weaker than QD
balmy condor
so I don't know
strange python
my aims are just, get hp, get mastery, get steps, get geodes, get coils
but that's as sub
balmy condor
ngl even if it was a joke
dense cedar
anyone ever taken the THistler power lol
dense cedar
balmy condor
yes, because I couldn't take anything else
tulip tide
in long runs I usually take it to just remove it from the pool, if the other power is garbo
(18 floor)
dense cedar
i love using the anima orbs at last boss
and getting powers that do literally nothing
balmy condor
I bought the hungering orbs for a while
and realized that 95% of those powers are shit
so then I stopped buying them
dense cedar
gotta get that cheevo tho
strange python
what are the go to powers for sin in torgh?
dense cedar
i thought cheevos were for casuals
strange python
red ink, vein rippers
balmy condor
red ink, vein rippers
yep, pretty much that
dense cedar
Geodes and Wraithcoil are still good
strange python
so you just bleed up with a step to rupture and vanish for uber spike?
dense cedar
since u need evasion to not explode
strange python
god, imagine if we had shrouded suffocation still...
tulip tide
I honestly don't know why that wasn't a legendary..
dense cedar
if only
tulip tide
Just the extra combo points alone made it so much smoother to open
raven egret
that was the garrote cp one eyah?
strange python
yeah
dense cedar
i don't think having exsang and SS on the same row would be a good idea @strange python
dense cedar
since they basically work really well together
strange python
since it's fucking useless next to alac
dense cedar
full rework when
strange python
exsan should be the single target option on the last tier
where it would have a purpose
tulip tide
I mean exsang was terrible all of bfa until the very end, right?
Surely at some point, exsang outperforms alac when you get more haste?
(in later tiers)
wait nvm.. it was actually a thing in the first 1 or 2 raids, right?
balmy condor
yeah you're not getting enough haste to make that worth
also alacrity arguably gets stronger later
because of secondary DR jank
raven egret
the only reason it was good was cause of expedient
strange python
even WITH corruptions it took a lot of haste to be worth going exsan
balmy condor
because of SS
tulip tide
they should make exsang back to how it was at the start of legion..
400% quicker dots was actually nuts
balmy condor
they need to change exsang, or add bleed borrowed powers to make it good is the thing
all our shit is poisons atm
strange python
that's why I say they need to rework those last 2 tiers entirely
dense cedar
rogue is currently very toxic
dense cedar
They won't make alacrity baseline
strange python
it's either passive meh'ness (current iteration) or op godhood (legion)
dense cedar
just make TB cast poison bomb
stoic needle
They could make it into a finisher
dense cedar
and balance it around it happening for sure
tulip tide
maybe I'm crazy, but I'd personally love if they added the torghast power to distract and make that our cooldown-based aoe,
strange python
making it a finisher is a fine idea, but then if they did that they could just remove CT at the same time
then put exsan on the last tier for bleed vs poison
dense cedar
ye
tulip tide
and drop things like poison bomb
strange python
and put shrouded suff where exsan was
dense cedar
I think PB finisher is a bitt excessive
it should just be a 100% chance on something we already use
stoic needle
It feels weird that envenom is our only poison finisher and that we really only have 2 sources of poison damage without pb
dense cedar
well autos are poison dmg
strange python
personally I actually think from a fantasy standpoint we should be all poisons and ferals have the bleeds
but that's a bit of a departure from the original to ever fly
stoic needle
Yes, our weapon poison and envenom are the only 2
dense cedar
Deja i'd fucking hate that
stoic needle
If you wanna split deadly and instant it's 3 but I consider them 1
dense cedar
i hope no one is looking in here rn
strange python
exactly
tulip tide
personally I actually think from a fantasy standpoint we should be all poisons a...
jesus don't tell them that.. it'd be a disaster in pvp 
strange python
well it wouldn't be any different other than fantasy/names etc
just give a more focused outlook on spec choices
stoic needle
Yeah
dense cedar
and there's already a class that has an active use poison dot
strange python
even if it was just a name change
dense cedar
Hunter
stoic needle
Pb being a baseline part of envenom wouldn't be bad tbh
strange python
omg
fuck hunter
they should go back to mop survival
noone likes survival as it is
dense cedar
Melee Survival is cool tho
strange python
except players who want to play memes
stoic needle
Yes actually
strange python
hotter take: bm should have been the melee hunter spec
stoic needle
Fuck the pirate shit
tulip tide
hottest take: hunter should be a 2spec class, not including bm
dense cedar
the pirate fantasy is basically dead now
strange python
bm wouldn't have even needed gameplay reworking
it could play EXACTLY as it does now, and it would be a good melee spec
mortal tartan
i liked the pirate thing in legion
tulip tide
i mean bm is practically a melee spec, right? just with 40yd range
mortal tartan
bfa ruined pirates and shit for me though
dense cedar
pirates just aren't that interesting in a world on magic dogs n shit
at least assassins r cool
dense cedar
I want 1 kinda pirate in wow
strange python
I did
mortal tartan
what about booty bay
dense cedar
the one that gives me rep for the Insane
tulip tide
booty bay has been there since vanilla soooo
stoic needle
Yeah but nobody wanted to play it lol
strange python
rogues prior to wow were never "ninja"
mortal tartan
werent pirates a whole theme in warcraft 2
dense cedar
Jokester class
mortal tartan
shaco
mortal tartan
rengar is funner
strange python
until we got the pirate spec we were missing a huge facet of the "rogue" fantasy
dense cedar
The ninja thing never really felt like it happened
stoic needle
I don't consider pirates part of the rogue fantasy
strange python
pirates are like literal rogues
dense cedar
pirates are criminals
stoic needle
Pirates aren't sneaky and stealthy
dense cedar
which is basically the main kinda rogue lmao
stoic needle
That's what I think of as a rogue
strange python
rogue is a much more versatile archetype than what the playerbase thinks of it
mortal tartan
it would be cool if they had pistol offhands
dense cedar
who's that @strange python
strange python
for a long time han solo would have been considered THE archetype of a "rogue" character
stoic needle
Whispyr pls
dense cedar
is it worth multidotting when the shade is active in Sun King? @balmy condor
strange python
the point is it's not JUST ninja, I wouldn't mind if they put more poisony stuff into the sin fantasy
stray ivy
Hand solo = outlaw rogue
dense cedar
Hand
strange python
poisony stuff is our singular forte as assassination but the spec and choices don't really reflect it as much as it could given how important they say those things are so commonly
sadly that got a little bit diluted more after we gave poisons back to all 3 specs
stone epoch
sub always struck me more as the assassin as far as fantasies
strange python
sub IS the ninja
stone epoch
yee
strange python
the poisoner archetype isn't the same as the ninja
this is what I mean when I say the fantasy got mixed up a long time ago
and I think that slowly traslated to "all 3 rogue specs are ninja"
mortal tartan
subtlety should be the name of the poison spec
stoic needle
Bring back combat
mortal tartan
makes more sense to me
tulip tide
Bring back combat
what is it that you feel is missing? or you just want to drop dice + pistols?
stone epoch
ye, I can see where you're coming from.
stoic needle
In my mind combat spec was kind of like the Fighter class in DnD. Not quite berserker, but an agile duelist arena fighter archetype. I don't mind rtb at all actually, and grappling hook could stay, but they could rebrand rtb into like 'combat senses' or something like that and get rid of the pistols
Combat was the rogue that didn't really need to stealth and just kicked your shit in face to face
balmy condor
Whispyr pls
such is my life, the channels stay close to on topic, and we don't post bait nonsense, thems the rules
stoic needle
Assassination used poisons and bleeds to kill, and subtlety was about more dirty tricks and well... Subtlety lol
balmy condor
strange python
yeah the point was more sin
trying to get sin CLOSER to that poisoner archetype and therefore having a more focused outlook in your available talents etc
instead of having to fight between different kinds of "sin"
it would give them more freedom in what to create in terms of interesting talents etc
dense cedar
i feel like SS, EB, CT would be okay aoe row for talents
strange python
even though it's just a "branding change"
a lot of people would say (and they do say) "you can't do that there's already a poison talent in that row
it removes that completely
tulip tide
Rogue changes in the Lightlands:
- Assassination renamed to Apothecary
- Crimson tempest changed to Poison Cloud
- Rupture changed to Injection
- Garrote changed to Pill Force-feeding
strange python
as well as gets sin closer to the "fantasy archetype" that the devs say they want to move things towards
stone epoch
pill force feeding
tulip tide
something like that?
stone epoch
lol
strange python
I mean, kinda
stray ivy
Kingsbane
tulip tide
honestly wouldn't hate it
strange python
it's mostly just a branding change right
tulip tide
yup
strange python
but it ALLOWS the devs to do things like bring back kingsbane and NOT have people go "BUT THERE ALREADY A POISON TALENT THERE!"
tulip tide
altho i'd want them to remain physical debuffs (like shiv is currently)
strange python
it allows the devs to do something like change PB entirely to an actual single target talent while CT basically becomes poison bomb
tulip tide
I mean I honestly like the whole open wounds + venom theme, with venomous wounds, but I agree it feels like they're pushing together two types of specs
strange python
without the same concern
stone epoch
you could probably just rename the flavor text for rupture in that case
stray ivy
so how bad is sin in M+ now
stone epoch
just mention that you're ripping in deep with your poisoned blades or something
strange python
so how bad is sin in M+ now
it's not horrible, but it's definitely not outlaw
stray ivy
which melee would u say is worse
strange python
between... all melee?
stray ivy
ya
mortal tartan
survival hunter
strange python
I mean frost?
mortal tartan
🙂
strange python
survival is kinda good actually
strange python
it's just a meme by comparison to it's other options
tulip tide
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25
according to this, nothing?
stray ivy
rip
mortal tartan
look at the parses though
strange python
you know what's most interesting about that log stats page?
that there's THAT MANY sin rogues at all
tulip tide
i eman coming from my experience with them in pvp (being against them), isn't a lot of their damage passive aoe? would kinda make sense that they'd be at least okay on trash at least
even though their ST is garbo
balmy condor
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/25
according to this, nothing? <:pe...
mythic+ log statistics YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKERS
tulip tide
mythic+ log statistics YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKERS
I mean that was kinda the point of the shrug emoji, but i'm not sure what else I can look at?
strange python
but both are better off by simply being something else
strange python
^
balmy condor
but there's like 90000000 too many variables to accurately say which spec is doing more damage in m+
what dungeon?
what level?
with what pulls?
balmy condor
are you playing with people that do less damage? so the pulls last longer?
are you using prideful efficiently?
what affixes for that week?
strange python
I'm actually growing to hate the "how much damage does x do over a dungeon?" more and more
I started by hating that question already
dense cedar
I think they should rename the MA talent to Pinpoint Strikes
strange python
like "holy shit, I need a lot more info..."
strange python
I think they should rename the MA talent to Pinpoint Strikes
in the same game where we can mog our daggers to hatchets? unlikely
tulip tide
raider.io score would probably be a better estimation
Okay fair enough, but how would I read into that? Because the absolute top is probably not running either? Not sure how I would read into this apart from just population by key level?
strange python
Okay fair enough, but how would I read into that? Because the absolute top is pr...
to be fair you just inadvertently highlighted a problem in the playerbase generally
the concept that "if it's not ahead it's dead" is dumb
stray ivy
SS or EB back ? which uwould uw ant
tulip tide
yeah indeed, but at the same time you still have people like most of you in this channel, that play it despite it not being the creme de la creme
strange python
to be fair again, most of the people who play "in spite of" don't really care either way
tulip tide
again, i'm not sure how to read into this properly - but if I understand it correctly, according to https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-sl-1/all/world/leaderboards#role=dps:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=15:maxMythicLevel=99
there are literally 0 assassination rogues doing 15+?
strange python
I mean, I'm 100% positive I could post some as sin
but
the question is
why would I currently
tulip tide
definitely
but you still have frost dks at 0.4% population, not literally 0
strange python
I could just be outlaw and do it easier, which leads to a fundamental misunderstanding by the rest of the people trying to view it
to be fair, OL is stronger than UNH dk in m+ really
so sin has actually got stronger competition
add to that the fact that the typical rogue player in my experience tends to be a little more min/max minded than the typical dk
a suspicion that's given factual evidence by virtue of the complexity of this discord by comparison to basically any other
tulip tide
yeah fair enough
balmy condor
if you sort by melee dps
it actually zooms out a little
the reason its 0%
is cause on the grand scale of ALL dps, it's less than 0.1%
strange python
I mean I know a lot of sin peeps who play it for virtually everything and just switch to OL for high keys coz "easier"
balmy condor
which is 0.0%
which is 0%
if you sort by melee dps only
you get 0.2%
which is a whopping 60 sin rogues
tulip tide
yeah I see it now 🙂
and i understand how it came to that
strange python
no surprise there
still sad though 😦
I don't hate outlaw at all, I like it a lot, I just PREFER dagger specs
tulip tide
was basically expecting it to just say 0% (or 0.1%, rounded up so that it's not just 0) with a number after it, my bad
balmy condor
all good
sometimes coding is weird like that
I agree they should round up
but i get why they don't
strange python
I mean the numbers start off wonky because they rely on community perception anyway lol
if everyone "knows" something is bad, it's less likely anyone will play it 😛
now we just gota get the devs to care
tulip tide
I mean my biggest wish right now is just for rogues to have an actual reason to be a part of a raidgroup.. Like give us something like +5% crit dmg on our poisons for our raid
main blaze
Thats what happened with Assn in BFA. "Its bad" but literally doing more dps than outlaw rogues when you run SS as Assn.
except season 2 when that trait was broken and untouched
tulip tide
ye not to mention if you were a nelf
main blaze
the outlaw trait I mean
fallow otter
At this stage, I think it's safe to say guys that the Chinese would have found a way to make sin work if it was doable, just like the spreist legend
China ahead of the game on that one
Im kinda hoping there is some weird build no one is playing that's good
But those dreams are slowly disappearing
strange python
I mean at this stage we're all playing ww and dks anyway, maybe we've overwritten our last exsan'd bleed for quite some time @fallow otter
fallow otter
You hard in the paint dk now?
balmy condor
what legendary are you trying for
strange python
You hard in the paint dk now?
no, I won't drop my rogue as my "intended main" at all
more just semi benched for prog until they do something about our utility
Hopefully I'm back to overwriting bleeds at stupid times soon
balmy condor
well
low girder
did you do it on layer 3+ and it's not randomly in your bags or anything?
low girder
that's true
balmy condor
strange python
no, I won't drop my rogue as my "intended main" at all
more just semi benched fo...
I understand your point about perception though. Rogue throughput in outlaw is amazing but no one sees that when mages are hitting 50kdps on big pulls
It’s just insane
brittle sparrow
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
I understand your point about perception though. Rogue throughput in outlaw is a...
in terms of rogues in RAID atm unfortunately it is more reality than perception sadly, we bring nothing in terms of utility and not ENOUGH dps to make up for that fact
fixes for that aren't about to suddenly appear though
so I call my rogue my "intended main" but he's unlikely to be personally unbenched for quite some time I imagine
tulip tide
in terms of rogues in RAID atm unfortunately it is more reality than perception ...
what do you want to see them do to balance that? just bump us to the top?
strange python
I mean there are like 3/4 melee specs higher than us and with melee spots so scarce it’s just a miracle to have one. My guild passed my trial today but honestly I think I wanna playboomkin. I’m a HFC veteran when rogues were on top of the dps meters and the soul capacitor trinket was the most amazing thing they ever ever put in this game
atm playing my rogue over my in mythic raid is kinda trolling
strange python
what do you want to see them do to balance that? just bump us to the top?
I mean we are a triple dps spec should we not be?
Rogues locks Hunter manages
Mages
We should be near the top
tulip tide
I mean we are a triple dps spec should we not be?
well we could also get something like every other melee (if you count wf totem and devotion aura)
strange python
I mean there are like 3/4 melee specs higher than us and with melee spots so sca...
I don't really care HOW the balancing is done, wether it be in terms of utility given for raid, or dps going up
but if you're middle ground dps you should probably bring something to the group
if you bring NOTHING then you should be capable of tippy top dps meters
Remember when smoke bomb was a raid cool down
I do
10% damage reduction just put it on the tank
tulip tide
yup..
give us smokebomb back (without LOS if that's a design restriction, which is probably is) or some vital buff/debuff and remove shroud, please!
strange python
just give shroud a damage reduction and make the dr stick around for a bit after the shroud drops
same thing kinda
I think all rogue specs the aoe cap should be raised or mages and druids should be capped
idk
just something
tulip tide
and jsut work on opener..?
strange python
the cap thing is w/e really
at the very least we should bring one of the ap/mob debuffs
fallow otter
just give shroud a damage reduction and make the dr stick around for a bit after...
So we gotta cloak and evasion to not get broken out of stealth?
strange python
Nah man you’re tripping I can go full insane aoe on a pack and peak at like 11k dps for a second and mages are doing 30k?
fallow otter
👍
strange python
So we gotta cloak and evasion to not get broken out of stealth?
it would just become a button you could push, and gives just the dr unless you push it from stealth
tulip tide
but to be fair, when did they last add a new utility to a class? shaman link in cata?
strange python
also it would benefit from not giving us TOO much outside of raid
as you'd have to choose between having the pathing options or the dr in fight
but really it's just spitballing dreams
I'm not really talking about something actually going to happen
just something needs to change in terms of raid
tulip tide
yup..
strange python
What you playing now deja
giving us crazy damage will carry over into other forms of gameplay that has bad ramifications
giving us just MORE utility does the same
tulip tide
the whole "un-pruning" of SL for rogues was pretty pathetic ngl..
slice and dice and poisons 
vs DK's AMZ ???
strange python
to be fair numbing is pretty fucking good
but
like most of our stuff, it just does nothing for RAID
tulip tide
yeah numbing is fine, but tying it to shiv imo is pretty meh..
esp since you want to use it offensively as sin
(the tranq effect)
strange python
it's like the playerbase along with the devs when thinking of rogues revert their mindset to "BUT MYTHIC PLUS"
people have done that more and more since the 3 rogue meta
and it just never stopped
tulip tide
but i mean currently, do we really need shroud?
I haven't paid any attention to high lvl m+, but is shroud really mandatory for the high rogue keys?
because I feel like the dungeons just aren't designed in a way that you really need it, right?
strange python
shrouds currently used very little
later on though we might get affixes where that changes
tulip tide
because it eats up our "utility quota" too hard - and in raids, the only thing you use it for is skipping some trash lmao
strange python
so removing shroud might not be the obvious go to
tulip tide
shroud just feels too binary to me..
either it's NEEDED or you DON'T
and both versions is bad, imo
strange python
different seasons affixes changes pathing quite dramatically remember
tulip tide
yeah ofc
strange python
you're not wrong though
the requirement of it just shifts rogues back/forth between requirement or not
and it's more impactful than mob debuffs when it is needed
tulip tide
not to mention it probably strips the devs of certain amounts of creativity..
I mean imagine if shroud had literally never been a part of the game, and then the nzoth affix came into the game
strange python
although this really belongs in the general channel
stick to "give us shrouded suffocation in here"
tulip tide
and I can almost guarantee that "shroud" was literally on their whiteboard for every dungeon design meeting
bring back shrouded suffocation!
fair
(still mind blown they actually removed it tho..)
strange python
considering it was basically a given on every sin rogue throughout ALL of bfa...
I felt pretty confident it was goign to be baked in
somehow
but alas
tulip tide
yup.. and not only that, but it felt good to use
honest lake
sin is good in pvp?
viral meadow
sin is good in pvp?
I mean, it’s fun in pvp
Only been playing it in 1400-1600. Better in 3s where I was just running round like it’s a rot comp
Just watching the mage double blink away and you just say out loud ‘okay but you’re dead anyway’ is pretty nice
fallow otter
Outlaw talents
viral meadow
what talents should i take on sire?
Blindside+Sub+Vig+Poison Bomb
Cases could be made for a NS+MfD with the MA leggo
mortal tartan
so subt for the vanish/garrote on the second phase?
viral meadow
Check the logs on that fight for people with your leggo and stuff see what they’re running
viral meadow
so subt for the vanish/garrote on the second phase?
Yeah so you can get buffed garrottes on the sire+rem+adds
mortal tartan
aight ty
fallow otter
Sorry I couldn't hold it back, my bad 
viral meadow
Don’t worry bro my sides still hurt from laughing
mortal tartan
i was second top dps on generals i think sins working good for me lol
fallow otter
Be good if rogue could complete coz i can P pay it with my eyes closed
Ww WoO actually might be hardest spec to play top tier atm
viral meadow
Yeah. I’m rocking sin Indefinitely now. As long as you’re not the weakest link and you’re still progressing what’s the diff
mortal tartan
my group is pretty janky rn though more than half cant get a parse highers than 30 and we have 2 warriors same geared but opposite sides of the damage meter
void pecan
low girder
if that's true better swap off the rogue then
fallow otter
Our best Hunter is battling me for top spot, but he gets PI 🤦♂️ no fair
viral meadow
Pay off your priest
fallow otter
But I can say I can do that on rogue
No such luck, sadly I'm in for the greater good. Being top is a bone arse but I want the bosses to die for that race to ce
stray ivy
my fav specs are arms, demo, and sin since vanilla. SL is going great for me.
dense narwhal
mortal tartan
im the only rogue in my guild so they don't know the difference between sin/outlaw
sinful island
wowanalyzer tells me that I am not making good usage of vanish, could you help me figure out how my rotation should look like?
there's example of my combat with generals
sinful island
I was sure that using garrote from stealth is most important
okay, I am dumb xD
was sure that this is passive, not talent.
kek
balmy condor
wowanalyzer tells me that I am not making good usage of vanish, could you help m...
wow analyzer is also not updated, and even when it is, not really the best source to get your logs reviewed btw
sinful island
well, it pointed out the thing i didn't figure out yet by myself
strange python
Being able to read logs is was and always will be better than a tool like wa
balmy condor
well, it pointed out the thing i didn't figure out yet by myself
yeh but that kinda says more about you than it does about the actual webpage, no flame
low girder
would also point out that wowanalyzer paywalled the timeline feature beyond the first 10s so a lot of people who were trying to keep it updated dropped it
it's likely going to be an even worse tool going forward
balmy condor
Well the rogue dev at least asked here for feedback
And the CF/TC people gave lists of improvements
Not sure what the timeline is on that
But wowanalyzer devs come and go like the seasons
So wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just never up to date again
And then eventually becomes unmaintained
low girder
i dunno if that guy was one of the ones who dropped it once the timeline thing went live
viral meadow
What does CF/TC stand for?
fallow otter
And then eventually becomes unmaintained
Sounds like now
balmy condor
Sounds like now
Yo true
viral meadow
Been wracking my brain trying to figure it out for weeks lmao
balmy condor
yeah I get super lazy writing it out over and over
but apparently bad acronym
cause I have to explain it
unsure atm if explaining it is more effort than typing it out in the first place
viral meadow
Nah it’s good. I figured TC was theorycrafter
balmy condor
but uh, seems slightly less effort
low girder
wasn't there an acronym page somewhere
balmy condor
at some point, yes
fallow otter
I think next time just say green bois
balmy condor
I want to make a new acronym page for rogue/sin along with a possible document on what can be cloaked/evasioned/feinted every tier
strange python
I just hope that the rogue Devs understand the raid position. I feel like most people who begin talking about rogues as a class revert to thinking about PvP and m+
balmy condor
but uh
thats under my bis list in terms of priority
and I'm lazy with that already
fallow otter
In monk discord we talk about COCS
balmy condor
maybe I get off my ass and finish bis list tomorrow
and then start working on the resource stuff this week
dunno
path of exile kinda tasty
fallow otter
Which is the 2 potency conduits 🤣
strange python
Lol getting a fucking m+ group going is hard when most of your party is away on poe
balmy condor
well getting a fucking map group going is easy when most of your party is here on poe
strange python
Lol
strange python
Priorities whispyr! We need resources to know how much and why we suck for raid right now
low girder
god i hate most of the game's conduits
they're so fucking boring
the potencies anyway
fallow otter
balmy condor
Priorities whispyr! We need resources to know how much and why we suck for raid ...
yeh I mean I made a bis list for a spec with less than 100 people on logs right
fallow otter
COCS
low girder
rofl
fallow otter
strange python
The monk potencies are interesting at least
strange python
CTO is interesting. Pf is too. But it's shit
fallow otter
Offtopic af
strange python
The sin ones are zzzzz
strange python
Yeah fair
low girder
the rest are boring
fallow otter
@strange python saved it, brought it back to sin lol
strange python
Lol
fallow otter
Guys I have a confession
low girder
actually have a 213 LP conduit which ain't bad
fallow otter
My rogue hasn't been sin since Tb got taken off my bars
low girder
i went sin to test a couple things
i haven't played it in any content at all
don't even remember what i was testing tbh
fallow otter
Actually that's a lie coz i was ST CT exsang spec that was awesome
But that was the last time it was sin
low girder
i think i was sub fulltime in prepatch
fallow otter
Yeh I was
low girder
so yeah no sin playing at all since
might give it a go in torghast at some point
and sire if zoldyck ends up being useful enough to swap
strange python
I loved Legion sin the most. But I don't miss having all of my damage funneled into pb
low girder
but like i didn't hate the way EP or BoD sin played outside of MA bullshit where sometimes you'd get zero crits and afk
low girder
i'd tilt so hard on azshara when i'd open with zero crits
holy shit man lol
least that's gone in this iteration for the most part
subt fulltime
fallow otter
I couldn't get a good queen parse either
And org parses were all from pre nerf outlaw, we killed it the week after nerf before then I was carrying dmg hard
Coz there were like triple rogue mdi teams lol
mortal tartan
this game just needs an actual balance team
and bi weekly updates
sin gets an 8% buff and will never be touched for like a year
fallow otter
It's playable now, so you can hardly blame for concentrating on other things for now
That's just my opinion
misty holly
Has anyone considered how a second legendary changes the dps ranks? I'm sure some classes/specs will benefit more than others from being able to use their #1 and #2 items.
maybe assassination will be one of the ones trending up with that?
Maybe not.. I don't know.
So even if we get no changes in 9.1, assuming speculation that a second slot becomes available could shake things up all on it's own
fallow otter
It's something I have thought about
But not for long coz no point yet
Ill just let it happen
mortal tartan
i know sin is playable, its just that blizzard doesn't have a legitimate balance team and they wait till classes/specs are nearly dead and unplayable to give them a small boost
if you look at riots balance team, they fix shit before it even happens
misty holly
Yeah I agree, its way too early to worry about it, but might be fun to consider anyways.
low girder
Riot is also deliberately trying to break metas. Blizzard is not. They don't want sin to suddenly be the go-to after everyone's geared around the other two specs and built legendaries.
fallow otter
i know sin is playable, its just that blizzard doesn't have a legitimate balance...
Seems a little heavy handed honestly, shadowlands in my book has been a massive success so far
low girder
So instead they made it playable
fallow otter
Regardless of where sin is at, and they are improving it
mortal tartan
i don't want sin to be top dps spec, i just wish the game changed more often
thats what keeps games like league fresh
its always changing
wows meta can be the same for months and months at a time
fallow otter
Yeh it isn't a mistake that the guys that have brand new skins out get a buff
low girder
I would hate it personally. I don't want the spec I should be playing to constantly be shifting from balance changes while I'm progressing through a raid
Suddenly my spec is 5% worse from one week of prog to the next
That would be immensely frustrating
Now push that out across an entire raid, where some raid groups would have a 15% buff and some a 15% nerf 2 months into a raid
no ty
I get that it can be frustrating this way but the other way would be worse
tiny thunder
if you look at riots balance team, they fix shit before it even happens
Which game do they balance? Forgive my ignorance
mortal tartan
league of legends
tiny thunder
So, a game which basically starts anew each match? And not a type if game in which you invest X amount of time and effort into gearing for certain spec/class
mortal tartan
@low girder i understand that playing a character thats getting buffed and nerfed would be annoying especially when you've sunk so much time into that character, but i don't think nerfs should ever come out unless something is absurdly overpowered. I just believe that the balance team and actual player base is so disconnected from one another that its taking so long for things to be fixed
im not saying that they should just buff and nerf specs each week, just that they should actually invest more into balancing the game but blizzard can't even pay employees their wages
misty holly
The thing is, if they balanced more often things would probably shake out to being closer to equal
strange python
This has gotten really non productive as a conversation very quickly
Blizzard is completely capable of paying their employees
misty holly
Yes some class will drop 15% and another will rise 15%, then they will realize they overreacted and one will go up 4% and the other down 3% and then 1% and then they will be equalish
strange python
And that has nothing to do with balance of a class
misty holly
when you only balance once every 6 months its too hard to get to that equalibrium.
strange python
It’s also ad hominem somehow which makes zero sense
There’s a few questions worth asking.
Does blizzard want all classes to do the same damage or similar damage?
Is class balance across raiding, m+, and pvp possible?
misty holly
If they are designing raid encounters with aggressive enrage timers then dps balance is of utmost importance.
crude ravine
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
And is that balance to the degree we are discussing worth the investment blizzard would have to put into it? From an opportunity cost perspective.
misty holly
If enrage timers arent a thing anymore (I dont actually know I havent really raided in years) then you can get away with less balance but more utility benefits
strange python
If they are designing raid encounters with aggressive enrage timers then dps bal...
Disagree
misty holly
but if there is a fight where you fail a dps check and that causes the wipe... well you better have the classes balance ON POINT
lament dove
I say balancing should be one of the most important thing in the game, since that directly translates to players comfort, and you know, this is a game which is supposed to be about fun
strange python
I don’t even understand what that means
Everyone assumes balance means dps numbers are close
That is in my opinion a fallacy
misty holly
I think its totally okay for one class to be more survivable and another to do 10% more damage. Unless there are enrage timers.
strange python
I think the only unbalanced thing in rogue dps is outlaw single target damage
misty holly
enrage timers change everything
utility is useless if failing a dps check kills the raid
strange python
I disagree
storm perch
if one of three dps specs are working - it's ok for blizzard
strange python
Utility can 100% increase raid dps and help hit dps timers
That’s so simplistic
Outlaw should not be best single target and cleave dps for rogue
Imo
worn panther
Warlock Gate = Utility = Higher Uptime on Boss = Higher DPS
mortal tartan
what utility does rogue bring
strange python
Cloak soak
worn panther
Cloak, Tricks, Feint
mortal tartan
*that other classes dont
worn panther
Vial
worn panther
So go play hunter lmaoooo
storm perch
nowadays a lot of other classes have the same rogue's utilities and even better
strange python
If your point is rogue is a more pure damage class and should be higher on the overall dps ranking as a result
I agree
mortal tartan
exactly, there is no point to bring a rogue over a hunter
if they are evenly skilled players
strange python
It is my personal opinion that rogue should be the highest dps in single target 100% uptime scenarios
But alas blizzard stopped balancing that way in wrath
And yes when rogue dps dips out of the solid top 5 range rogues don’t have the utility to still make top teams.
The question is does blizzard care
Is that part of their balance equation
Rogue raid dps will almost always suffer when outlaw is the top spec
Because outlaw is so op in m+
mortal tartan
with all the positive shadowlands feedback i believe people think blizzard cares
but in terms of balance
i see not a lot of differences
strange python
I think a lot of people see balance as a today issue
I see balance as a problem that is worked on over months
jagged axle
just crafted my assass legendary
with all my gear and conduits on im simming 400dps lower than outlaw
strange python
We call it sin but I like assass
jagged axle
i've always heard ass or assass
strange python
Seems about right chadimir
jagged axle
its pain
strange python
Sin is the lower of the specs rn
jagged axle
just want my spec to be good again 
rugged dragon
Same chadimir, I am simming 400 dps lower than my outlaw
Butt I did HC dena yday, and I was in the top 3 dps
as 213 assass rogue with only 10% haste, I was above a 217 sub rogue
jagged axle
im still progging Heroic
jagged axle
5/10 we hit council and fuckin plateaued
rugged dragon
I raided as sin, I will keep doing it too
In mythic I will be outlaw, but we do heroic runs as alt run basicallt
Ill go assass there
ornate raptor
I’ve raided as sin , first tried it out on mythic shriekwing , getting used to rotations again etc was still doing pretty decent just above top 5 dps
But i got a huge talk after from my RL that i didn’t go for the best optimized st spec meaning sub
Which my answer was i still did better then most of the raid whats the issue?
Now i got benched for mythic huntsman 😂
low girder
Benched for huntsman as sin because you're not playing sub is a big yikes
Probably sub's worst fight
fallow otter
Honestly getting benched as rogue full stop isn't something crazy
low girder
Yeah fair outlaw wouldn't save me from the council bench lol
fallow otter
We benched all our rogues on huntsman
That was the day I decided it was ww time
But sin is alot better than sub for huntsman
ornate raptor
I can’t be bothered to level a diff class now
Even my paladin thats 60 i can’t find the time to play it and gear it properly
fallow otter
Would you have time if you dropped your rogue completely
ornate raptor
Probably but i love my rogue, rogue for life my man
raven egret
paladin isnt much better
ornate raptor
But yes WW is a good choice 😂
fallow otter
Well easy decision then
raven egret
ret is worse off than us
ornate raptor
Paladin is my tanking dude
fallow otter
Just power on
strange python
Rogue is one of those classes
fallow otter
I suggest going outlaw out of all 3 specs