and Sub has better short bursts and utility
#assassination
main forge
stoic needle
the problem with sin in keys is the CC
the lack of burst can be played around with other classes
but not having access to any other kick besides gouge, kidney and vanish cheapshot really hurts
main forge
Yeah. Right now we need to CC a bunch. and Sin has Kidney Shot and Blind.
main forge
and sub can ShD and cheap shot 3 things
stoic needle
i would love it if iron wire gave us a silencing garrotte out of stealth every 30s or something
main forge
why they gave gouge to outlaw and not the other two rogue specs is beyond me
or we had a reduced blind cooldown with a larger range....
just for pve
stoic needle
lol
main forge
or sap worked in combat... something ffs
stoic needle
it makes me sad that nobody on blizzard's dev team plays rogue and it shows
main forge
Even the streamers neglected Sin and were all LOL SUB BURST AND KILLS IN 1 GLOBAL in the alpha/beta
and kept saying rogue was fine even though we weren't.
strange python
Has anyone here cleared the twisting corridors as rogue solo?
main forge
Full 8 layers? fuck no... i had better things to do this week then spend 20 hours in that jazzhands hole.
strange python
Lol
I watched a WW friend clear it
It got to the point where touch of death had no cd and hit 3 targets
stoic needle
i think layer8 is easier with a group apparently
strange python
Was absurd
stoic needle
lol wtf
main forge
I have been enjoying doing the normal torghast as a group.
so looking to do TC as a group too
strange python
He had a ton of health too
main forge
I wonder if we could get a 5 rogue party doing TC and see if we can "break" it
I remember doing.... some cata heroics later in the expansion as a 5 rogue party for shits and giggles.
next bay
Has anyone here cleared the twisting corridors as rogue solo?
I finished it a few days ago, yeah.
exotic sundial
I saw an all rogue rbg in lfg. I wonder how that went lol
stoic needle
i'd love to do some 5 rogue shenanigans
i never did the 5 rogue ToP 1st boss spam but it seemed like fun
honest lake
Kyrian is bis for sin even in 31?
hollow jungle
You can sim covenents at renown 31
stoic needle
venthyr still sucks at renown 31 
strange python
Venthyr š¤®
stoic needle
the TRANSMOG THOOOO
spice spire
We win on mog alone dog dw
vapid terrace
whats pointed courage? why can't i find it
stoic needle
honestly if they get rid of the 2nd flag gcd i'll never complain again
main forge
Transmog improves DPS by at least 36.333% repeating of course .
spice spire
TRUE. It feels fucking horrible
stoic needle
butits like... flag sucking on top of our soulbinds being meh... it stings when i look over at kyrian and NF with their actually good abilities and soulbinds
spice spire
Like the ability itself is fine, but if it were removed off GCD, thatād be a huge W
main forge
Just make it like convoke.
quasi scroll
how does Numbing poison work on raid bosses?
main forge
press a button and afk for 4 seconds
quasi scroll
can't be full power I assume?
main forge
It doesn't work on raid bosses... .maybe raid adds at times
spice spire
^
quasi scroll
ah ok
stoic needle
according to whispyr it does work onbosses
quasi scroll
weak
stoic needle
@balmy condor confirm/deny? does mind numbing work on bosses?
main forge
I know in the past it worked... but only on certain bosses casts... like I want to say Halfus Wyrmbreaker?
stoic needle
flag + thrill seeker haste is actually giga
that was on a target dummy
72% haste no lust 
main forge
just like how wound poison works on some heals for bosses/adds
fading wigeon
lol i thought my flast 18 percent haste was special.. lol 72 percent damn haha
stoic needle
lol that's with the nadjia passive and flagellation up
fading wigeon
I miss my 80 percent haste from 8.3
stoic needle
if you can consistently get flag off and not miss any reactivations it and the nadjia passive do quite a bit to make sin feel more smooth
you quite frequently have +20% haste or more just randomly
spice spire
My favorite is when you desync everything so youāre just consistently mediocre at best 
stoic needle
lol
i tried to sim lining up flag and thrill seeker and it's a loss
just flag on CD and forget that thrill seeker even exists except to maybe try to shiv during it
spice spire
stoic needle
man like
why isn't thrill seeker like the ER animacharged CP
why can't we save the buff
it's like celerity where it procs at the most useless times lol
spice spire
Thrill seeker loves to pop in phase changes on sire densthrius for me or when I have to venthyr over to a mob because we have very few ranged
candid shuttle
Is there any hope for Assassination aftrer the buff?
Or is it just a pity buff? xD
candid shuttle
Oh mb
sudden canyon
whats a better happy medium for dungeons/single target. haste/vers or haste/crit
exotic sundial
Is the buff live yet? My dmg is the same as it was pre buff. I logged my attacks on a PvP dummy
sudden canyon
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
exotic sundial
This morning before work. At 5:30 am est
stoic needle
whats a better happy medium for dungeons/single target. haste/vers or haste/crit
haste/crit, you really need crit for reliable CP from FoK
stoic needle
This morning before work. At 5:30 am est
yeah the buff wasn't live then
exotic sundial
I know. Thatās when I did my pre log
I just tested it again now
Number are the same and some even lower
On a pvp dummy
stoic needle
how long were your tests for
exotic sundial
Just my starting rotation with buffs
stoic needle
try on a PVE dummy maybe idk what bonuses the pvp dummies have
i dont think a test of less than ~5mins is sufficient because of RNG
plain thistle
the buffs was probably already live
stoic needle
do they do that?
exotic sundial
So the buff is useless in PvP then
stoic needle
i dont think a couple minutes of testing on a dummy is enough to say that
plain thistle
oh yeah, "[With regional restarts] All damage abilities increased by 8%."
with regional restarts
š¤
stoic needle
you know, we didn't actually get a restart until like 12pm
exotic sundial
My point is say envenom hit for 4060 per buff now it hit for 4080 lol
daring pecan
you do know that abilities do variable damage, right?
exotic sundial
Iāll see in actual PvP if I notice a diff
It should vary that much in the same target with the same buffs
plain thistle
maybe it was with 12am resets and not weekly reset, then it would be live since yesterday
stoic needle
keep testing it
exotic sundial
Still prefer it over sub just sub had way more PvP tools. I donāt care about the diff in burst. Iām fine with sins dmg
Itās the other tools I want
Mainly 2 steps and shadowy duel
stoic needle
we get smoke bomb at least 
i'm really feeling the difference in sin's cc from the other specs now it kinda sucks
exotic sundial
I really want shadowy duel š
green elk
Zoldyck on Feet or Legs?
spice spire
Going into the maw willingly 
stoic needle
all of the nightshade tho...
deft vault
Do we go crit haste for zoldyck?
stoic needle
I went haste vers but I wish I'd gone crit haste
But it doesn't really matter either is fine
stable moss
would anybody know if the buff you get from sepsis is considered a stance or not for macro purpose
viscid locust
!oh
prisma monolithBOT
Mutilate requires a dagger in both hands, this makes using a non dagger weapons undesirable.
rustic juniper
what's the opener for us as sin?
stoic needle
Gar(or garx3 if aoe) mut snd mut rup with subterfuge, mut snd mut gar rup without
knotty bear
So torn on whether or not i want to return to sin
supple mica
def will be curious to see results this week
stable moss
is there a way to make mutilate and ambush in one button?
mighty onyx
Shift mod
balmy condor
would anybody know if the buff you get from sepsis is considered a stance or not...
Think It might be stance 2
stoic needle
That's the best way to do it
balmy condor
is there a way to make mutilate and ambush in one button?
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
mild lintel
i know assa is bad but I just like it so much more š¦
mild lintel
its my favorite spec, its the only one I even play, ever xD
stable moss
@balmy condor stance 2 works just need to find out how to make blind side work in with it
stable moss
stance 2 works with sepsis proc
balmy condor
Yeh
rocky ruin
i think gnome addon is the only solution cause you arent going actual in stealth sepsis proc let you use a stealth ability
its not like sub
stable moss
always choose subterfuge?
viscid locust
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
mild lintel
so should I full kidney, Shiv, Septis, Vanish, mfd envemom for opener?
with full bleeds on
mild lintel
ye
pliant apex
ambush not required with MA right?
balmy condor
You never ambush from stealth
stable moss
garrote is only buffed from stealth with sub tho right?
balmy condor
garrote is only buffed from stealth with sub tho right?
Yes
stable moss
in that case then if not subterfuge you would ambush?
balmy condor
You do not ambush from stealth
glad scroll
Heās asking why
stable moss
lol energy regen i guess
balmy condor
Itās a mixture of mutilate cp, poison application, and if youāre running blindside, the chance for a free ambush
viscid locust
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
As a basic thing
coral imp
would you want to get elaborate planning over blindside in cleave bosses like huntsman/stone general
coral imp
ok thank you
glad scroll
Has anyone tried out conduits/leggos to see how they work in game?
I see a lot on sims, but not much feedback from how they play
daring pecan
@balmy condor do you know if sepsis applied during stealth should get the 50% damage bonus from nightstalker?
from my (very little) testing it seems like it doesn't
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> do you know if sepsis applied during stealth should get t...
Would not
Sepsis gives literally no stealth effect minus garrote silencing, which I believe is a bug and not intended
daring pecan
no, I mean if it should get 50% more damage if applied from stealth
which it seems it doesn't
astral pasture
so is assassination good or is it still trash
daring pecan
with nightstalker
balmy condor
so is assassination good or is it still trash
Pins
daring pecan
actually lemme make VERY sure I'm not being dumb
again w/ nightstalker, now testing w/o
balmy condor
Vanish into sepsis seems pretty questionable to begin with
Even with nightstalker, which isnāt really a talent we take
daring pecan
it's just a meme idea for pvp but I thought you might know about it
stable moss
im trying to find a build for 2 target cleaving as a raid spec so just looking for help
balmy condor
(Btw if youāre testing these things you really should be logging it, and not taking details screenshots)
daring pecan
why tho
balmy condor
im trying to find a build for 2 target cleaving as a raid spec so just looking f...
EP and subterfuge
daring pecan
if it's just a meme idea anyway, does it matter? 
rigid wyvern
are the talent change books at a reasonable price yet?
balmy condor
if it's just a meme idea anyway, does it matter? <:monkahmm:585734084571955211>
If itās a bug, donāt you want to be sure?
balmy condor
are the talent change books at a reasonable price yet?
Donāt think so
daring pecan
but that would require me... to actually log things... which I never did
viscid locust
is the guide in RH okay?
balmy condor
OOOOOOOOOOOOF
viscid locust
stat priority doesnt match here
balmy condor
is the guide in RH okay?
Theyāre all okay, yes
daring pecan
viscid locust
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
near pilot
oils or stones for sin?
viscid locust
Agility
Haste
Critical Strike
Mastery
Versatility
balmy condor
oils or stones for sin?
can sim it for yourself in advanced for an accurate comparison: https://pastebin.com/0CnXcRR1
balmy condor
Agility
Haste
Critical Strike
Mastery
Versatility
Yeah, so the = means equal, which means that the order doesnāt really matter
balmy condor
The stat priority for the bis list is crit = vers > mast = haste
I wouldnāt really nitpick about it
Stats change
Priorities are very general
viscid locust
kk, just wanted to check it was okay
balmy condor
Usually just haste > everything
And once you get a ton of haste
Haste is bad too
Itās a constant ebb and flow
daring pecan
damn bro, my last logs are from 6 years ago
viscid locust
legendary is zoldick on which piece?
fading wigeon
legs
raw tusk
crit or vers as a second missive for leggo or are they close enough
daring pecan
raw tusk
okay wasnt sure if it had changed at all
daring pecan
pins are always your friend
trim solar
so NA boys n girls hows assa doing atm?
raw tusk
true i jus saw "this does not change our stats in a major way" so was more asking if there was a change in stats after haste
balmy condor
so NA boys n girls hows assa doing atm?
Roughly 7% better than it was yesterday
brisk forge
Any NA that have tried assa in m+ compared to sub?
rigid wyvern
dude the server has been up for like a few hours and everyones at work
low girder
day raiding 
celest ruin
pretty sure if my damage crits the buff becomes 16%
brisk forge
alot of geeks i guess that play all hours š
balmy condor
pretty sure if my damage crits the buff becomes 16%
Yo huge brain
rigid wyvern
š¤
vapid terrace
how do you get raidbots to test having 28 renown to add the potency from kleia, and then add main mangle to it?
balmy condor
You hit the box that says āunlock all soulbindsā
And then you add the potency and select maim mangle
daring pecan
So taking MA increases our damage by 16%?
balmy condor
Make sure when you finish the sim, you scroll way to the bottom of the list, where that combination will be
vapid terrace
oh nice, cheers
green elk
What haste % should we shoot for in raids?
balmy condor
whatever the sims say
viscid umbra
So has raidbots been updated with the buff? There's no announcement in the raidbots discord but it was mentioned that it would be updated when NA servers had the buff
balmy condor
So has raidbots been updated with the buff? There's no announcement in the raidb...
yes, it was updated 2 days ago #tc-updates
viscid umbra
Oh ok, thanks
pliant apex
dont have to play ambush right, can just use garrote with MA?
or is MA below subter?
balmy condor
not sure what that question means
if you're playing with MA the talent, you would not garrote, nor ambush from stealth
if you play subt, you would garrote once, and still not ambush
daring pecan
why does ambush even exist for sin
daring pecan
oh right, blindside
balmy condor
and now it's just a blindside machine
daring pecan
I wish so badly that blindside was baseline but then it would kinda just be pistol shot v2
daring pecan
yeh
mortal tartan
is crimson tempest worth using single target
daring pecan
good ol' execute dispatch
spice spire
is crimson tempest worth using single target
No
stoic needle
dont have to play ambush right, can just use garrote with MA?
with MA you want to mutilate out of stealth
echo cargo
Maybe if you have 200% haste š
raw tusk
you mutilate out of stealth not ambush? whys that?
low girder
combo points
stoic needle
Ambush does more damage but mutilate generates more CP
3 cp on an ambush crit vs 4 with mut
stoic needle
Mut garotte out of stealth is ez 5cp
raw tusk
havent played assasin since bfa
fervent beacon
How's the buff treating you sin players?
raw tusk
ahh ok
fervent beacon
Debating on making the executes feets for mythic progression over outlaw
near pilot
so literally only time we ambush is blindisde?
balmy condor
yes
fervent beacon
Seems like it.
near pilot
copy that!
balmy condor
I'll resim is at some point this week just to make sure
its not a huge gain
but it's like 0.3-0.4%
whole dew
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
lost prism
hello people, how does it feel the buff? makes Assa viable ?
tight ravine
any good example sims?
balmy condor
I'm resimming the bis list atm
so maybe in 3-4 hours
I'll let you in on a secret though
zoldyck single target is looking very stonks
fringe dust
Thanks for all the hard work! Can we expect any info on PVP? Or is that another Discord lol
fringe dust
right-o, i knew that. it was a test
balmy condor
:P
stoic needle
zoldyck single target is looking very stonks
Any other legendary shakeups?
balmy condor
not from what I see
whole dew
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
full steam ahead to zoldyck-ville
fringe dust
thats really good to know, i'd just die if i made dashing by mistake
balmy condor
wonder why I'm getting zoldyck > dashing though when fuu didn't get that
probably will have to ask him about it
kind cliff
its so weird that zoldyck is so good when in text it doesnt seem like it would be
kind cliff
im not saying it isnt
balmy condor
its literally the reason why you would consider playing sin
kind cliff
im saying that by reading its text it doesnt stand out as something that would be the BIS
balmy condor
doing more damage in execute doesn't stand out to you?
mortal tartan
kind cliff
i mean its completely useless until execute range, and it doesnt even specify how much more damage your stuff will even do
so how does that stand out?
balmy condor
?
fringe dust
in my smooth-brain thinking i'd assume the execute phase is the shortest phase, and that 70% of the fight i'm doing NOTHING. but according to math i'm, just wrong xD
mortal tartan
30% is pretty big
balmy condor
it literally says 30% in the tooltip my guy
burnt notch
it does not say how much is 30% /s
balmy condor
true
crisp glen
||30%||
balmy condor
or 30% more
kind cliff
it could be like 36 damage
crisp glen
š¤
balmy condor
it could even be 70% less than double the damage
that would be wild
if true
also whats with elaborate planning
burnt notch
What is vendetta
kind cliff
whats with this 8% buff
crisp glen
balmy condor
10% damage
kind cliff
how much is 8%
tight sparrow
why are we here
to kill raidbosses before the next Raid starts
kind cliff
what is rogue
fringe dust
we just wanna poison things and not be judged for it
kind cliff
who is rogue
lavish whale
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
kind cliff
why did they go rogue
fringe dust
frost was even worse than assassin or one spot up?
fringe dust
feels bad
stoic aspen
vestal wren
assassnation has nearl no logs
so wcl %tile data are not a very reliable source for balance
stoic aspen
I've played with about as many sin rogues as I have frost mages
which is basically 0
hollow jungle
damn, my sub still sims 600 dps higher....son of a bitch
vestal wren
that makes sense
balmy condor
yeh seems about right
you don't have sin stats, and sin still is about 400+ under sub fairly easily
kind cliff
sub will still be better but now you can play ass and not be a complete handicap
hollow jungle
that logic basically just means never playing sin lmfao
maybe i can get enough haste for it to be worth for sire
balmy condor
if that's what you're into, sure
vestal wren
the community likes to be super toxic about weaker performers and alienates players who play those specs. This further drives down the player count and makes it very unlikely to see those players
fringe dust
but thats not to say some cooler trinkets will come out next raid and make Sin POP OFF.
kind cliff
well sims are best case scenario with minimal error, perfect world stuff
stoic needle
How do the bonuses from EP and zoldyck interact
kind cliff
where in reality sin is way easier to play, so you wont make as many mistakes, also it does way more damage without actively attacking the boss, so any down time you dont lose nearly as much damage as sub
so unless youre a really good sub player, youll probably do just as well as sin
hollow jungle
having symbol/dance up for each pillar of sludge is to big value tho i think š¦
mortal tartan
the community likes to be super toxic about weaker performers and alienates play...
i mean people pay monthly to play the game so it makes sense that they would want the best experience, if people are playing bad or specs that are bad in their raid i think they would be entitled to kick them but overall it does suck
i think people are overly toxic about it though
fringe dust
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
vestal wren
i mean people pay monthly to play the game so it makes sense that they would wan...
i don't see why it matters is the performance is good enough for the content you do
stoic needle
10% damage
Are the % damage bonuses additive or multiplicative? Do you do 40% extra damage during the execute phase with zoldyck and EP? Or is it 33%?
And where does vers enter the calculation 
balmy condor
pretty much everything is mutliplicative
stoic needle
So many % damage modifiers
ebon patio
the community likes to be super toxic about weaker performers and alienates play...
I don't know if toxic. It's just about numbers. Let's say you just need raw dps. And you have a feral in queue and a MM hunter, both with the same IO. Which would you pick?
vestal wren
i mean
balmy condor
if you play path of exile, think of everything as a "more" multiplier, rather than an "increased" additive
vestal wren
this is just the level of toxicity i mention
lilac prism
are the pinned talent builds relevant for cleave raid encounters still?
balmy condor
are the pinned talent builds relevant for cleave raid encounters still?
yes
stoic needle
There's a million factors to that choice outside of their class and io
vestal wren
if we are realistic and would all just play whats best for the raid we would not even have a active chat member in this discord š
rigid wyvern
Do we bother dpsing shades on huntsman? or just leave it to classes with actual burst?
vestal wren
because playing any of the op ranged dps is way better than any rogue spec
balmy condor
Do we bother dpsing shades on huntsman? or just leave it to classes with actual ...
just play exsang, it's only 5% worse single target, trust
vernal mauve
Did the buff help sin out that much or is it still kinda dead?
stoic needle
just play exsang, it's only 5% worse single target, trust
Don't tempt me
rigid wyvern
just play exsang, it's only 5% worse single target, trust
kthx
mortal tartan
honestly now that i think of it if theres 1 dps in your raid who is singlehanded holding back the entire raid by not doing an extra 400 dps, somethings wrong
stoic needle
Can we pin that
balmy condor
no :P
stoic needle
pliant apex
message im getting is, though sin got buffed, its still really no use compared to sub or outlaw? your rl will still judge/bench you
rigid wyvern
dont worry ill send you my exsang parse on huntsman later
pliant apex
right?
lilac prism
for CN should we be doing the Single target or Dungeon build?
rigid wyvern
my rl wont bench me cause I dont play in a super hardcore guild
fringe dust
You're running Zoldyck on the Feet slot, right Whisp?
stoic needle
message im getting is, though sin got buffed, its still really no use compared t...
If you're getting benched it's not because of your spec it's because of your class
balmy condor
stoic needle
So play what you want
hollow jungle
so a 5 min patch sim isn't taking zoldyk or blindside execute into account or does it work?
pliant apex
If you're getting benched it's not because of your spec it's because of your cla...
how much diff is sin compared to sub, some guy sub is simming for 600 more for him
thats significant
balmy condor
okay ask all your pepega now, then I disappear
balmy condor
You're running Zoldyck on the Feet slot, right Whisp?
legs
stoic needle
so a 5 min patch sim isn't taking zoldyk or blindside execute into account or do...
Yes it does, only target dummy has the mob at 100% hp the entire time
balmy condor
for CN should we be doing the Single target or Dungeon build?
single target, subt/ep for cleave
balmy condor
so a 5 min patch sim isn't taking zoldyk or blindside execute into account or do...
they take it into account
knotty bear
how much diff is sin compared to sub, some guy sub is simming for 600 more for h...
dude probably has 0 haste because hes sub
fringe dust
thx!
knotty bear
but there is still a significant gap
lament aurora
what build should I start for ritual league
hollow jungle
i have 13% haste in my sim in which sub is 600 > sin
stoic needle
how much diff is sin compared to sub, some guy sub is simming for 600 more for h...
It depends on your gear, but sub will pretty much always win in pure single target
balmy condor
message im getting is, though sin got buffed, its still really no use compared t...
this is answered in the pins, we're used for execute and that's really it if you're trying to be competitive top of the meters
balmy condor
what build should I start for ritual league
I think flamethrower trap is kinda saucy honestly, but frost bomb buffs look solid, there's a couple people in #off-topic that play, can ask them
aight me go sim now don't go full pepega pls
exotic sundial
Iām debating if I should go from Kyrian to NF as sin for PvP? I like the idea of an extra DoT plus the mobility. Plus Iām a dwarf so I can remove the same things phial can minus the heal. I donāt know how good Covs are later on with diff conduits and soul bounds and such though. Opinions?
stoic needle
I'll hold down the fort
rigid wyvern
Do we do more damage if we spec crimson dance? (bad poe meme)
stoic needle
Iām debating if I should go from Kyrian to NF as sin for PvP? I like the idea ...
Consider that you get TWO phials basically as dwarf kyrian
knotty bear
eh phial was useful for restealths, but now cloaked in shad is broken and you can restealth with dots anyway
exotic sundial
Thatās true too kinda lol
stoic needle
What's this about cloaked in shadows?
strange python
is sepsis buffed by zoldyck?
stoic needle
No
rigid wyvern
is sepsis buffed by zoldyck?
No, it is not a poison
knotty bear
What's this about cloaked in shadows?
you can sit in stealth with shield absorbing dots lols
so you dont get pulled
stoic needle
Wtf lmao
mortal tartan
re-stealthing with dots feels so great
rigid wyvern
does that work on ground effects?
charred cliff
zoldyck on my tight leather pants better than my crocs yeah?
ebon patio
There's a million factors to that choice outside of their class and io
That's why I mentioned raw dps. There's always each class set, covenants, amounts of a specific key run, etc. We always play what's fun. But the community always takes whichever hits more in some random chart. That's why having your own group is the best approach. I really dont't feel that picking A over B is the fault of some guy pugging neither it's toxic, it's just either lack of knowledge, bad past experiencies or whatever. The only real toxicity while pugging is related to servers.
Sorry for the long answer and taking this long to reply, was cooking š
kind cliff
yes it works on ground effects, it is literally an absorb on you
stoic needle
That's why I mentioned raw dps. There's always each class set, covenants, amount...
All good my friend, but I think you're discounting the ambient toxicity present in the game because of how hard people adhere to metas
pliant apex
people say play whats fun, but hows a spec fun if youre being judged for it, if you feel like crap coz you do everything right but youre below on dps in guild, and below the sub rogue in your guild
why would any of that be fun, even though the spec you play is fun to you
pliant apex
everyone?
pliant apex
cmon man, lets be real
stoic needle
No you be real lmao
pliant apex
parses and meters rule this game
stoic needle
You're a slave to your meter
pliant apex
lying or denial wont help bud
i hear you, its noble
but its not realistic, far from it lol
stoic needle
rigid wyvern
If you dont want to have to play the best spec, join a guild thats gives less of a shit
charred cliff
?
pliant apex
at the end of day, youre judged by nos, no one can argue against it
stoic needle
You are the only one stopping yourself from enjoying the spec
charred cliff
its a game
stoic needle
Nobody judges me in my guild
pliant apex
right, lets tell ourselves that lol
kind cliff
maybe youll beat the sub rogue in your guild because mechanics make it so he cant attack the boss the whole time, meanwhile your poisons and bleeds keep doing damage
pliant apex
i play in a super super casual guild, but they talk logs all the time, they say oh look at the sub rogue, he parsed great, and im quietly listening as the sin rogue in disc, how do i not feel like crap?
stoic needle
If you're not having fun playing the videogame you're playing it wrong
pliant apex
agree oshosi, but i think a lot of us arent playing wow right
kind cliff
youll parse amazing as a sin rogue because there are like 0 parses for sin rogues
pliant apex
im 40, i try not to too, but its not easy man
pliant apex
lol
ebon patio
I will give it to you. Meters matter (at least to me), it's nice to see your name up there. But they matter to me because I'm also having fun. If I was forced to play something I dislike, then I would just drop either that group or WoW. I don't know how many pro / semi pro guys are here. But for most of us, the game is about having fun. If you don't, why play it?
stoic needle
You're 40 you're beyond the point where you should care what people on the internet think
pliant apex
its not like i dont want to, i dont want to care.. it just ends up being that i do
stoic needle
I'm 27 nd I couldn't give less of a fuck
pliant apex
i try to think like that too, but then they call me boomer
pliant apex
my guild doesnt say it, playing wow non stop 15 years makes me hear it
from the community in general i mean
stoic needle
Yeah man like
I got burned the fuck out playing classic trying to min max every single possible thing
As a warrior spending hundreds of hours farming for a stupid savage glad chain and all of the consumables
And then I realized I wasn't having fun
Even though I was top of the meters every raid
pliant apex
I will give it to you. Meters matter (at least to me), it's nice to see your nam...
agree fully, i just don tknow what to do, dont want to start another class, and hate out and sub, sin is my only option, i enjoy it greatly , but idk what to do at this point
stoic needle
So when I came to retail I made sure that fun came first and it's so much more satisfying
pliant apex
yup
rigid wyvern
are you parsing worse in your spec or just getting out damaged?
pliant apex
parsing crap as sub compared to the good sub rogue in my guild
stoic needle
If you like sin, play sin
pliant apex
who enjoys sub hence plays it better
stoic needle
And rock those parses
pliant apex
i do, but ill be even lower than him then
stoic needle
Not necessarily
mortal tartan
its scary to think that some peoples favorite part of this game is checking their logs after a raid
stoic needle
You'll trash him on cleave fights
mortal tartan
its just numbers
pliant apex
i hate sub hence dont want to play it, that makes me play it even worse
kind cliff
play assassination and youll parse just as high as him, but your damage will be lower
pliant apex
st is the game man, more or less
pliant apex
guildies dont look at warcraftlogs all the time, most ppl look at skada/recount
low girder
its scary to think that some peoples favorite part of this game is checking thei...
why though? people enjoy different things in games. idk how that's different to people playing d3 to watch the numbers go up
pliant apex
its scary to think that some peoples favorite part of this game is checking thei...
i agree, i think warcraft logs and addon for logs has made this game the toxic cesspool is it
but me syaing that changes nothing
stoic needle
We will have some crazy system that shakes all the balance up
rigid wyvern
I like looking at logs after raid buts it mostly for self improvement
boreal venture
i agree, i think warcraft logs and addon for logs has made this game the toxic c...
word
pliant apex
theres a reason ff xiv is good, no addons and parses allowed
rigid wyvern
I like knowing im performing well for myself
im not gonna give my guildie shit for having a bad night
boreal venture
i agree, i think warcraft logs and addon for logs has made this game the toxic c...
i cant stop creating alts cause of that fking website
pliant apex
same miki
but the game wont change
either we change with it, or stop playing
i cant do either
hence im in limbo all the time
stoic needle
If your guildies only look at recount just post parses in your discord or whatever
People will get on the parse train lmao
pliant apex
i mean we start enjoying the parses part of it, as most players do
pliant apex
heh its not my guild, its my place as a player in the wow community
its hard to explain
guild is super chill, for once
stoic needle
Idk like
boreal venture
could u define parse? 
pliant apex
i feel 'below' the rogue in my guild
stoic needle
The wow community is full of idiots
pliant apex
is he a better person? why does he be no 1 while im no 6
wind canopy
@me oshosi
boreal venture
The wow community is full of idiots
i come from lol, u dont know what your'se saying
rigid wyvern
I mean logs are useful for that sort of feeling
rigid wyvern
you can do a log compare on him and try and figure out what hes doing that you arent
stoic needle
I saw it all
rigid wyvern
and learn from it
stoic needle
MID OR I FEED
topaz saffron
Compare Logs, And especially uptime x
royal lantern
i come from lol, u dont know what your'se saying
lol community is full of clueless idiots that think they play in challanger and suck
pliant apex
you kill logs/addons for logs and more than half players QUIT, i guarantee it
they live to put others down on logs,
hard fact
stoic needle
i cant help it
Well for starters, the way you look at the information changes everything
royal lantern
wow community is full of clueless idiots that think that big parse=good player, and that they all play for limit
pliant apex
agre
royal lantern
its the same, just with a different skin lol
stoic needle
Recount is a very skewed view which only takes dps into account
That's why I like parses better
They're sorted by parse % by default not by dps
real bay
nobody serious looks at recount, wcl is all
pliant apex
yes, but the problem is, parses judge you for not being mostly flawless, it tells the world you messed up a mechanic, or rotation
stoic needle
So if you're kicking ass as sin you will be above him on the overall rankings list for that log
pliant apex
thats where the judgement comes in
boreal venture
srry guys, but could someone define parse...?
royal lantern
yes, but the problem is, parses judge you for not being mostly flawless, it tell...
parses dont mean good player
boreal venture
royal lantern
ofc a good player tends too have better parses
stoic needle
thats where the judgement comes in
So why make it worse for yourself by playing a spec you don't like?
royal lantern
but good parses<-------------------------->good player
pliant apex
idk osho, coz most ppl dont think like you?
royal lantern
we have a dh that got 98-100 on every fight in the last 2 tiers
and he is perma benched for progression
cus he is a HORRIBLE raider
topaz saffron
He aint listening to anything š
pliant apex
i want to be that 98-100 guy, im human
stoic needle
I'm just saying, if you cant parse well as sub cuz you hate it, and you like sin.... Play sin
balmy condor
the fuck did I say 10 minutes ago
stoic needle
And get 99s as sin
pliant apex
?
topaz saffron
Play what you Like, come on
balmy condor
chill guys
pliant apex
oh ok sorry ill stop talking
stoic needle
Whispyr we're having a fine discussion here
ebon patio
Whisp be like 'I'm trying to sim boyz'
stoic needle
We're trying to bring a lost lamb back into the flock
real bay
i mean you can do mechanics and still parse well xd
ebon patio
š
mortal tartan
i like how half the time the discussion in here is whether sin is viable or not
boreal venture
i like how half the time the discussion in here is whether sin is viable or not
nah it wasnt about that
balmy condor
there's multiple options here:
- You're looking for max damage, don't play sin
- You don't like other specs, but don't mind a damage loss, play sin
- You want execute damage, play sin
- You're in a guild that isn't giga pushing mythic, play whatever you want
boreal venture
we're shitting on logs
balmy condor
everything else is just a waste of air
royal lantern
whisp
stoic needle
@pliant apex come back to us brother
royal lantern
can you ask fuu too make a automated moroes message that sends that too people that use the worlds "viable" and "bis"?
stoic needle
That's what I've been saying
This whole time
All of these questions should get a moroes DM
So you don't have to answer them
balmy condor
I don't mind answering them
but some people, who will remain unnamed
are literally like talking to a fucking brick wall
pliant apex
i dont want to be shit stirrer here, if whisp says chill, ill chill heh
royal lantern
?
boreal venture
yo wha'ts bis hehe
balmy condor
this channel is constantly stirring shit
stoic needle
Still better than the sub channel around launch
balmy condor
because people are hung up on sim dps and warcraftlog bar graphs
pliant apex
i dont want to be one of those ppl , sorry
balmy condor
and that's literally all they see
THE NUMBER IS BIGGER
so if y'all wanna go in circles again
go for it
pliant apex
i see it too, sadly. hence ill try to not talk about that now
yea i wont
apologies
royal lantern
chill lol
boreal venture
i see it too, sadly. hence ill try to not talk about that now
its impossible not to check it
pliant apex
i am chilling now?
balmy condor
curiously, dashing sims much higher for kyrian
raw tusk
dont tell me that i literally jus made zold lol
raw tusk
okay i feel better lol
balmy condor
if you're using dashing anyway you're kinda trolling yourself
stuck tartan
I still have dashing recipe in my bags
eternal totem
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
vestal wren
if you're using dashing anyway you're kinda trolling yourself
what if you play outlaw on aoe/cleave and sin only on pure st ? š
balmy condor
vestal wren
did you sim how strong the execute is now with the buffs?
balmy condor
yes
vestal wren
is it worth to bring sin for the execute or is the execute not high enough?
balmy condor
this is a 3 min sim emulating sire p3
so full execute
its still patchwerk so no downtime
if sub has to run a little, it'll go down obviously
fervent beacon
Why is dashing a troll item, just curious
balmy condor
cause dashing is a pure single target legendary similar to akaari
but by taking it, you're removing the only thing that makes sin worth taking
fervent beacon
I guess it's just poor 1 energy per Crit assuming it Crit.
balmy condor
zoldyck isn't that far behind, so it's really fine to take zoldyck, and you're getting the damage where you need it, which is execute
fervent beacon
Depending on it to crit to get little return on-top of env DMG so I can see taking zoldyck would be better
Like sire P3.
vestal wren
dashing is not a troll item, its just like with akaaris on subtlety a not very convincing pick if you get more value from a diffrent legendary
fervent beacon
Or sludgefist too.
balmy condor
even with low crit, dashing sims higher
it's power isn't linked to crits that much
like it is
but you don't need anything special to make it good
but yeah like fuu said
why would you build dashing
when you can build zoldyck, and its better as an overall, and it gives sin the execute niche that makes it viable atm
raw tusk
is there like an execute target dummy to see the diff of with or without zold?
ornate raptor
I am just curious to try sin tomorrow on reset and simmin stuff. I play sub/outlaw and just donāt feel my way with sub. Feels like i canāt get a hang on rotation.
balmy condor
is there like an execute target dummy to see the diff of with or without zold?
nop
there's not an execute sim type either
stoic needle
That's a pretty nice execute bonus
balmy condor
have to manually change it
lilac prism
@balmy condor is that sim for sub rogue or sin?
lilac prism
am I dumb? Says night Elf Sub rogue?
balmy condor
yeah what about it
lilac prism
how can I tell its sin?
lilac prism
That's not just text?
storm perch
lilac prism
Yeah but how I can I tell you actually were sin in the simulation and didnt just name it that? I'm not saying your lying, I just want to see the raw stuff, I dunno how to use raidbots
lilac prism
ah ok ty
balmy condor
np
lilac prism
oh sin uses oil instead of sharpening stone?
balmy condor
the difference doesn't really matter
lilac prism
ah ok not wasting the gold then
stoic needle
In my sims 1 oil 1 stone is bis
balmy condor
I'm probably going to go in and sim the optimal oil/stone/food stuff
stoic needle
By like 7 dps lol
balmy condor
for the bis list
but for right now
its like a difference of 15 dps at most
and I honestly can't be fucked
I still have to clear both torg wings and I have raid in 3 hours
lmao
maybe tomorrow
stoic needle
I'm a scrub and didn't farm up the leather for my lvl 4 base in advance
So that's what I'm doing
iron orchid
You're too good @balmy condor doing this for all of us ā¤ļø
balmy condor
np homie
I would've done all these sims for myself basically anyway
just have to make it presentable instead of the mess I usually make
btw we might unironically be deeper strat gamers next tier
if this trend continues
its consistently higher in bis gear
which is uh
yikers
stoic needle
Why is that bad?
drifting light
Whispyr working hard af
balmy condor
well you know how we always complain that sin is slow
balmy condor
Did this buff help us at all
it helped us by about 6%
stoic needle
Venthyr sin with deeper strat? 
cosmic trail
They overlooked the real issue tho 
pliant apex
which was?
balmy condor
also unlike with sub, there's an actual argument to be made that sin is more difficult with deeper than vigor
cosmic trail
Energy consumption
balmy condor
due to pandemic timing dots, etc
if you slow down something, you have to think farther ahead
its especially better with necrolord
like deeper on necro
is like 0.7%
kinda nuts
stoic needle
Have you noticed any talent changes that benefit the other covenants cough venthyr cough or is it just necro with deeper
balmy condor
deeper across the board is pretty marginal
it just takes off with necro
the rule for single target is take blindside
vigor/deeper is pretty close
ma/subt is pretty close
alacrity, poison bomb
stuck tartan
I tried Sin on Torghast with deeper AND vigor and still feels weird to me for some reason
balmy condor
yeh deeper without 8.3 haste is a little curious to me
balmy condor
yes
pliant apex
ty
balmy condor
good news though, we're about 360 dps behind sub BiS
balmy condor
I said good news didn't I
pliant apex
uhh yea , oh good then
stoic needle
That's actually good because most fights aren't patchwerk so it's harder to reach that max potential
pliant apex
ahh ic ic
balmy condor
300 dps honestly is comfy imo
vestal wren
subtlety is still more punishing, so sin could see a slightly lower difference in logs
balmy condor
its weird cause if sin sims equal, you wouldn't see a lot of sub
pliant apex
subtlety is still more punishing, so sin could see a slightly lower difference i...
true fuu. its very hard spac for us casuals
balmy condor
cause its easier, executes better, suffers less from downtime
so
being behind in sims is actually balanced tbh
pliant apex
ohh ic ic , interesting take
makes sense tbh
you think were going to see more sin rogues now whisp?
stuck tartan
I see new people in the chat everyday already
cause before the buff I just saw the same 7 or so
pastel notch
Any of the NA boys tried Sin today? How we looking?
pastel notch
balmy condor
but we're not giga gamers
pastel notch
Is Raidbots up to date yet?
balmy condor
yes, since 2 days
pastel notch
awesome
balmy condor
probably worth waiting about a week
to see what actual good players think
and not just sim-spyr over here
stoic needle
cause before the buff I just saw the same 7 or so
I slightly miss comfy sin chat but I don't mind new people playing the spec
pastel notch
I'm gonna try it on Heroic on weds regardless, maybe sneak into Mythic re-clear on the weekend
They seem chill with me testing it out
fading wigeon
@balmy condor will you be streaming tonight?
balmy condor
<@167090536602140682> will you be streaming tonight?
perhaps, yeh
we're just doing sludge skip normal, and then into heroic
pliant apex
best part is, i have 3500 ash, never made lego, so i can make my first on sin, have memory, didnt evne open vault yet
fading wigeon
Haha
stoic needle
That's the way
fading wigeon
What time?
grim wolf
you runnin zol @balmy condor for your raid tn?
balmy condor
pretty much exactly 3 hours from now
grim wolf
zoldycks or however uspell it
stoic needle
I was hunter guild lead in classic nobody could say shit about my dps
balmy condor
yeah I still need to craft it though
and I'm only half done with the bis list resim
grim wolf
stoic needle
Hopefully I have a few weeks yet to get some decent parses with sin before all of the good players get used to it again and beat me
pastel notch
5.7k as Sub; 5k as Sin on 6min Patchwerk 
balmy condor
balmy condor
sounds like low ilvl legendary and bad stats
pastel notch
I'm a sperg
stoic needle
I've done so many sims with the wrong conduits equipped lol
balmy condor
ngl, I started resimming
grim wolf
i do line before i sim so i'm amped up for the results Kappa
balmy condor
and completely forgot that I have it seperated to raid and raid+dungeon
grim wolf
pastel notch
5.2k with 190 Zoldyck legs
balmy condor
so I found a new bis set
and realized that I just basically went from raid to raid + dungeon
and it was identical to the list I had set up already
very smart
stoic needle
So is there One True Set now? Lmao
balmy condor
nah
I get dm's with people linking me sims where it's like BUT BUT BUT THIS FOOT PLUS THIS WAIST PLUS THIS WRIST AND IF YOU ENCHANT ONE RING WITH VERS AND THEN EAT MAST FOOD AND USE ONE OIL AND A PHANTOM FIRE ITS BETTER BY NINE DPS OH BUT ONLY FOR FAE
I use the same set for all 4 covenants and the baseline without a covenant
I'm sure you can find like 0.2% in any given set if you look hard enough
but that comes at the cost of readability, etc
just ends up being a headache trying to keep track of everything
pliant apex
should i just use trink right after vendetta whisp?
grim wolf
i wanna try out assa but man all my stats are wrong
balmy condor
its quite an ethical dilemma tbh, which is part of the reason why I don't REALLY like bis lists
balmy condor
should i just use trink right after vendetta whisp?
can macro together most of the time
pliant apex
ty , youre right
balmy condor
like on the one hand, it is a bis list, and I should stay true to that, so if its a 2 dps gain, it's a 2 dps gain. But it is also within the margin. Or like dashing vs zoldyck. I never recommend anyone build dashing, but in the bis list I still have the sims with dashing because it would be disingenuous to the nature of the list
so where do I draw the line
oblique kiln
does sin use ambush at anytime in normal pve rotation aside from blindside procs
oblique kiln
ty
balmy condor
so where do I draw the line
is a change in enchants big enough to warrant a change to the list? is deeper strat vs vigor being 0.3% apart big enough to warrant a change? is a crit/vers writs better than a haste/mast wrist because it sims 2 dps higher?
there's no good place to draw the line imo
stoic needle
so where do I draw the line
Put the theoretical bis on the list but add addendums about what's more realistic
balmy condor
because we start getting to the point where X off piece is 2 dps better than Y off piece
and then it gets hairy cause that might not be true for a different covenant
so then should I make a different set of gear for each covenant?
grim wolf
yes
balmy condor
I'd rather not
for a difference in like 5-10 dps from off pieces, for a niche like that
its not worth imo
BiS lists show trends
that's what its there for
it's meant to show a general trend in stats and gear, give an idea of what items are good, and show the value of side grades
if that trend can be formulated without going giga ham on 0.05% gains
then why bother
stoic needle
so then should I make a different set of gear for each covenant?
Is it possible to generalize or condense the trends for different covenants? Or is it so small that you'd have to stick to the individual pieces
pastel notch
MA lego seems to be simming really nicely for Sin? it's 1dps below Zoldyck for me
balmy condor
MA lego seems to be simming really nicely for Sin? <:monkaHmm:751450825871851651...
yeh is not that bad
pastel notch
Granted Zoldyck great for Sire etc
balmy condor
Is it possible to generalize or condense the trends for different covenants? Or ...
that's basically what I do by re-using the same set of gear for all covenants
The trends are the same
obsidian willow
Is the rotation for sin still the same as back in bfa? Garrote > rupture > garrote > vendetta > spam envenoms?
stoic needle
Lol welp
balmy condor
Itās just that X covenant changes the weight of something like mast by 0.03
pliant apex
yeah thats what makes it so fun and easy
balmy condor
And that means a crit/mast wrist is better
pliant apex
fuck sub
balmy condor
Or something
balmy condor
Is the rotation for sin still the same as back in bfa? Garrote > rupture > garro...
Not really, if thatās an opener
Double garrote from stealth was only a thing with SS
Should get snd up before rupture as well
cerulean kernel
I miss legion sin burst lol
grim wolf
kingsbane was good
cerulean kernel
sooo good
obsidian willow
Double garrote from stealth was only a thing with SS
So whatās the opener and rotation now? Sorry i havent found a guide yet
pliant apex
ambush, then slice, then you do mutiliate , then garrote and finally rupture
from stealth obv
rigid wyvern
no ambush
pliant apex
why not?
pliant apex
some guides mention ambush, and some what you said
median aurora
Guides:
WoWhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
Ravenholdt: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
wary pawn
Is assa back after buff worth playing it over sub/outlaw?
stoic needle
Mutilate gives more combo points which is more important than the extra damage of ambush
rigid wyvern
also with MA on the opener you can get 4 cp off your first mut while ambush can only give 3
pliant apex
oh the youtube guide i followed said ambush
mortal tartan
this aint youtube
pliant apex
oh i see
obsidian willow
What about garrote from stealth? No more?
rigid wyvern
only if you are subterfuge
stoic needle
Your openers are
Subterfuge: garrotte > mut > (covenant ability) > SnD > mut > rupture
MA: Mut > (covenant ability) > SnD > Mut > Rupture
stoic needle
Depends which one you have
pliant apex
oh right
stoic needle
I'm venthyr so I put it first for as many stacks as possible
pliant apex
i have venthyr
stoic needle
Yeahhhh you want that up ASAP
pliant apex
ohhh ic ic
whisp said tho i shoudl after vendetta, she probably assumed its nf or kyr
stoic needle
Rule #1 of the internet: 95% of people with anime avatars are not women lmao
Whispyr is a guy
mortal tartan
lol
daring pecan
whisypr is a beautiful girl
rigid wyvern
the classic
daring pecan
don't get baited by oshosi, Whispyr is a hottie
stoic needle
balmy condor
Iām the prettiest egirl
daring pecan
10/10 would simp
pliant apex
lol.
