I heard convoke is a great ability
#assassination
gray hazel
In the lastest PIN, on the Sin buff, what does TC and CF stand for?
main forge
theory crafters
rigid wyvern
theorycrafters / community figures i think
gray hazel
Awesome, thansk!
balmy condor
Just ask yourself if you like an ability because of the ability, or because it does damage, and 90% of the time you'll find you like an ability because it does damage
royal lantern
rigid wyvern
i like sepsis cause its pretty
main forge
I'll admit, I like big numbers going up on my screen
balmy condor
like blade flurry
is a very shit ability
but you hit the button and you see a bunch of numbers flying off of enemies
knotty bear
bflurry being on gcd feels kinda shit
balmy condor
and human mongo brain goes HAHA BIG NUMBER VERY FUN
swift sky
sin has no way to extend snd without casting it again like outlaw RtB or sub premed?
balmy condor
correct
swift sky
idk something about pressing it once and not having to worry about it for 40ish sec is satisfying to me
i am in the minority ig
delicate bone
bflurry being on gcd feels kinda shit
its much better now that it does dmg on use
rigid wyvern
hey im in that club too
dense cedar
Having SnD extend its duration on outlaw actually feels bad
swift sky
and not having to bother with it for 40 sec? sign me up
dense cedar
cos it usually means ur rolls are shit lol
swift sky
not necessarily
knotty bear
its much better now that it does dmg on use
yeah, feels better than bfa, but still miss it being off gcd tho
swift sky
CtO exists
ripe bone
little question: zoldyck on feet or legs
rigid wyvern
Honestly this reminds me of a league balancing thing where they talked about "invisible power" where SnD is super impactful and useful, but most players dont actually recognize how impactful it is
mortal tartan
after all ive said about not liking snd on sin, i never realized it had a 10% energy regen buff until now
atomic temple
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
little question: zoldyck on feet or legs
legs, but obviously if you have good legs like a 220, and bad feet like a 180, it'll be better for you to put them on your feet
if you're looking for the long term, general answer, it's legs
ripe bone
kk thx my thoughts, had 220er legs and have now craftet feets cause there i had 200
novel temple
whats the 2v2 with start with sub rogue and pally?
maybe i should take this to the pvp channel
balmy condor
probably should take it there yeah XD
faint harness
400 dps diff now
getting close
inting with the finality replacement for chest too
mild lintel
nightfae or kyrian for assassination pvp?
faint harness
ye
faint harness
its.. enough to make it a niche
instead of permanently sin
need 2 target cleave/execute
play sin
i am fine with that
only shitty part is needing another gear set
balmy condor
It’s basically miki’s bis list akaari vs my bis list zoldyck
Sin also naturally wins on 2-5 target
Compared to sub
So seems pretty stonks
lyric crater
is dashing scoundrel betther then zoldyck?
balmy condor
Only in pure single target
lyric crater
ok that what i though most of the boss fights are pure single on heave cleave fight outlaw is better over all
balmy condor
So I did a combo of sims
My bis list doesn’t include gems like miki’s does
So that one you linked
Is me taking the gems out of the sub profile
For an even playing ground
balmy condor
According to sims, yes
balmy condor
Yeh I’ll get around to it with the next update
faint harness
well if sin is better than sub for something in sims
its likely even better in reality
- the execute effect should never fall off for sin p3 denny
you'll likely always have those dots rollin
faint harness
ye noticed
balmy condor
The target starts 20% in that sim just to be sure
faint harness
zoldyck was confirmed to not work for sub right
balmy condor
Yes
faint harness
idk thats kinda weird to me
both specs have bleeds and poison
just like sin has vanish and can use the sub legendary
the rules are kinda loose on this shit
faint harness
true
fleet whale
it's prolly because zoldyck was a sin leggo in Legion, and blizz wants sin to keep an execute niche
like if any rogue spec is to have an execute. blizz prolly wants sin to be that spec
fleet whale
that seems like an oversight, especially if it only works for rupture
faint harness
i would also prefer if sin had a niche where it was good
and not the default pick for everything
balmy condor
that seems like an oversight, especially if it only works for rupture
Well it would probably work with eviscerate and black powder too, but sin doesn’t have those, so good luck testing it :P
faint harness
no meme i think sin could be really good on slg
last phase
2 target cleave
with execute
dots
fleet whale
we'll get a more clear look on sins' place in pve
in 9.1 imo
i don't think many rogues have enough ash atm to invest in a high ilvl sin leggo
faint harness
truth
balmy condor
last phase
I think with how freelo p3 slg is, the value for sin might actually be shield damage on adds
faint harness
oh right
faint harness
shield hits at 20%
balmy condor
Yeh
faint harness
interesting
balmy condor
Sin before the buff is already a fairly good target for PI
balmy condor
Yuh
faint harness
for sin
balmy condor
Depends on how other classes can handle the shield
Yeah maybe not PI for the shield
But just in general
fleet whale
what if the new play for some guilds on sire
faint harness
gotta git zoldyck first
fleet whale
is if sin is actually really good for p3
fleet whale
you bring like 2 priests and 2 sin rogues
and the priests spoonfeed them PI during execute lol
faint harness
you already use 2 discs on denny, im almost certain
for PI and for shields for nasty blood price
so thats free
balmy condor
PI is 2 min right?
shy dust
Yes sir
fleet whale
lines up perfectly with vendetta
balmy condor
faint harness
NUT
pre-buffs sin was like middle of the pack for PI right
that is PI during a 5 min encounter
balmy condor
It was higher than average
faint harness
in execute parts
anyway
sin is a 9.1 thing for me
sadly
i wont have time to get zoldyck at respectable ilvl
fading wigeon
Ok
balmy condor
I just crafted 235 finality
fading wigeon
Should have rank 2 Tuesday. Excited
balmy condor
Not expecting sin buffs
faint harness
same, yuge mistake
fading wigeon
Yeah I was about to make celebrity rank 4
balmy condor
And now I’m going 190 zoldyck next week
fading wigeon
Then stopped after the news lol
shy dust
i failed the soul ash this week
sacred yarrow
Isn't the dps diff from r1 to max like 150
fleet whale
i just made a 235 zoldyck
faint harness
150 is a lot in the grand scheme of things
fleet whale
i'm ahead of the curve boys lol
faint harness
simping onetricking paid off 
sacred yarrow
Yeah but if it you going for execute dam would be worth right
balmy condor
I should’ve never played sub
sacred yarrow
Lol
fleet whale
sub had a lot of hype in beta
fading wigeon
I should have never played dirty outlaw. Betrayed my soul
fleet whale
it was honestly the most overhyped spec in SL beta even post akaari nerf
sacred yarrow
Outlaw is clean af idk what ur on about 
balmy condor
But now it’s looking like sin m+ is kinda pog too
fleet whale
everyone was simping it saying it was gonna be a s tier god spec
faint harness
you forget that sub was nerfed a fuckton after those statements about sub was made right
fading wigeon
My rl would have sat me right away lol
fleet whale
idk, i remember dratnos making a wowhead article like very shortly before SL came out
balmy condor
I played outlaw to make wa’s, and then I crafted 190 celerity, played 2 dungeons with it
fleet whale
that he thought sub was gonna be s tier
balmy condor
And then I realized that I still don’t like outlaw at all
sacred yarrow
Wait is sin going to be bis spec for sludge next week
faint harness
so its hard to say what tier it belongs to
fleet whale
ST burst tier
balmy condor
Wait is sin going to be bis spec for sludge next week
Mayhaps
sacred yarrow
Lust and execute and 200% dmg for 12 secs
pliant apex
im def not going to be able to play sub, its stupid, totally giving up on it
fleet whale
but you all remember the first two weeks of SL, and Black Powder was the best aoe ability ever?
pliant apex
its hard to mechanics and not fuck up rotation
anything this complicated idk why ppl find it fun
balmy condor
but you all remember the first two weeks of SL, and Black Powder was the best ao...
The demon hunters 
pliant apex
ill try outlaw, or just play sin , no matter how it does
balmy condor
faint harness
seems to be about 30% during lust
faint harness
and 4th pillar happens during lust
faint harness
short cds reign supreme
balmy condor
And uh, probably not sin
sacred yarrow
My logs say 33% at start of lust but we get pillar a bit into the lust window
faint harness
Oh ye
sacred yarrow
So lines up perfect
faint harness
balmy condor
Like REALLY fucking bad
sacred yarrow
All my gear is crit vers or haste vers I haven't even checked what's good for sin thus tier lol
faint harness
its full bleeds on every vuln :))
balmy condor
Which just so happens to be exsang timers
Could also hold exsang for pillars
God I don’t want to sim that
balmy condor
Make a custom fight type for sludge, then optimize apl to use exsang properly on custom fight type
balmy condor
Fucking kill me
sacred yarrow
Do it !
balmy condor
Imagine
If I go through all that work
And exsang is just still 3% worse
Or something
What a dipshit I would look like
balmy condor
Yeah, just like my opener logic
Of “no ambushing from stealth”
And the top sin rogue atm is still double garroting with an ambush
I will never not be salty about that
balmy condor
Pins, tldr is that yes in niche situations maybe
pliant apex
omg thats me !
i just cant do it, i think its the hardest spec in the game tbh
all green
balmy condor
Definitely isn’t hard
pliant apex
so much to keep track of
pliant apex
i find it hard with mechanics
mortal tartan
its not that hard you're probably just over thinking it
balmy condor
Just sucks with mechanics and timing
balmy condor
Spec itself is fairly easy though
pliant apex
point is, i can just play sin now right
i mean it cant be bad now, i can do ok, esp in an Aotc guild?
faint harness
You could always technically just play sin
pliant apex
yea, esp after 13 percent, in an aotc only guild
fuck this, im not doing sub, this is dumb
and tho you right , spec itself isnt hard, it becomes hard with boss mechanics
ive never found anything so taxing tbh
balmy condor
I’m a big believer in the concept of “if you’re a good enough player to prog fights where X matters, you don’t need to ask me”
Like push doesn’t really need to ask me if sin is gonna be poggers or not
sacred yarrow
In aotc only guild u could've done sin from day 1
balmy condor
He’s a good enough player to make that distinction for himself
pliant apex
In aotc only guild u could've done sin from day 1
think so?
sacred yarrow
Ofcourse
balmy condor
Definitely
faint harness
Its all relative
balmy condor
In aotc guilds the dps checks are actually just checks to see if people can play their class
Not really dps checks
sacred yarrow
Every mythic fight early on besides first 2-3 were dps checks
Cause gear was so low
And that's where I would cross the line at no sin
balmy condor
Well the point is, you can pass heroic dps checks with 2 people dead if the rest of the dps can play properly
You playing a spec with 500 less dps isn’t the reason you’re wiping
Does more damage help? Sure
But you’re not wiping because of it
pliant apex
😦
sacred yarrow
If ur parsing orange+ that's respectable
pliant apex
ha, you mean i cando that as sin, as long as i play well
sacred yarrow
It's not me
dense cedar
Chimp
solar hare
Peen 
next bay
Does aura buff just mean all sources of damage are buffed by 8%?
grim canopy
not auto attack i heard
plain thistle
nor trinkets
fallow otter
A monkey can do well as sin
Not alot going on
😫
You gonna go back to sin whisp?
desert pelican
how viable ma for assa now? garrotes from the open isnt snapshotted to 100% crit?)
little moth
no
gusty kestrel
@fallow otter more to care about as sin than as sub
exotic sundial
If you are using MA and have bleeds and poisons on someone then restealth every DoT will Crit till the DoTs wear off or 4 secs after you get out of stealth.
low girder
just for the 4s
exotic sundial
No
low girder
oh when you restealth i see
unkempt nacelle
how does sin do in torghast?
fallow otter
<@201640840546877440> more to care about as sin than as sub
Do you mean in terms of rotation?
gusty kestrel
what else
unkempt nacelle
nah sorry, like is it smooth or one of the harder specs to do torghast on? my rogue is about to be 60
gusty kestrel
rogue in general is fine in torghast, no matter which spec
unkempt nacelle
thanks 🙂
grim canopy
will sin usually be last place in m+ after buffs too
gusty kestrel
sin isnt really in a place to really make the comeback just yet imo
fleet whale
post buff you can prolly do 10-15 keys as sin
gusty kestrel
it does scale very well tho
so im expecting it to overtake the other 2 specs with next tiers heroic gear
ish
fleet whale
eh are we really getting into scaling lol
fallow otter
it does scale very well tho
Careful saying things like that, guy gonna come in here and go Ape shit lol
gusty kestrel
idc if he comes or not
fallow otter
gusty kestrel
guy touches outlaw and nothing else
fleet whale
thank god whisp is afk
fallow otter
Hahaha
gusty kestrel
@balmy condor
fallow otter
Looking forward to sin being back on the table, in time
grim canopy
post buff you can prolly do 10-15 keys as sin
Wwell yah u can do it, but also be embarassed if dmg is 2 low
stark heart
well I do like sin more than sub
Because Assa uses Alacrity in 45 row and Sub doesn't?
drifting cloud
yes
gusty kestrel
u know me so well lorentz 
grim canopy
all i want is a video or stream of sin doing m+ in sl. havn't seen any yet
stark heart
Sub to Seli, he will do one surely
stark heart
u know me so well lorentz <:Aeonsilly:697268150667837503>
On a more serious note I am curious why you like it more
gusty kestrel
pooling, preplanning (also for downtime windows)
multitarget stuff
like rupture sniping on low adds
just a lot more minmaxing imo
balmy condor
Whomst pingest
balmy condor
Unlucky
fallow otter
Are you gonna go back whisp
balmy condor
Yes
wind canopy
i yolo'd a 210 zoly
stoic needle
rank 4 zoldyck on tuesday 
tame junco
can i ask a radom question about sin? should i always use envenom with high energy or does that not realy matter? i believe ive read something about this somewhere
balmy condor
Not really worth it
tame junco
ok so its totaly normal that i siomply cant use anyskill sometimes or is that just because i dont have much haste?
balmy condor
Yep
grim mason
So is the Assa 8% buff any good?
tame junco
ok, i tried it with my outlaw gear that has almost on every piece haste but still i have seconds where i just can AA
balmy condor
So is the Assa 8% buff any good?
Pin
grim mason
thx
balmy condor
ok, i tried it with my outlaw gear that has almost on every piece haste but stil...
Correct that’s how sin works
tame junco
ah ok, ty. sry for the "noob" question im kind of new to rogue overall
steep badger
Are we good yet
balmy condor
ah ok, ty. sry for the "noob" question im kind of new to rogue overall
No worries
balmy condor
Are we good yet
“Good”
gusty kestrel
he just wants an edge
steep badger
Doesn’t need one, he is legion
gusty kestrel
so he keeps saying that while going hard on it already
balmy condor
Me and my 200 soul ash
misty holly
With the other 2 lowest dps classes getting buffs even more impactful it feels like assass might still be at the bottom. But rather than being 25% behind unholy we're only 20% behind now.
steep badger
Ah, was wondering when the rain would begin.
Fair assessment, we’ll see how the next weeks shake out. I’m just glad we’ll be able to compete on some fights again.
misty holly
what percentage of fury warrior damage is autoattack? They have the same 8% buff to abilities. What percentage of frost mage damage is autoattacks? They get 9%
steep badger
And I can respec from this filthy bursty clunky abomination of a spec
Frost mages have auto attacks?
Remember when wands were a thing
gusty kestrel
not sure why there are still sad times after getting buffed xd
guess the hand wasnt enough, u rather take the entire arm
balmy condor
That’s how it always is
gusty kestrel
obviously
balmy condor
Welcome back to spec channels
gusty kestrel
leaving
steep badger
This channel is the sorrow bossfight from mgs3
gusty kestrel
steep badger
Some sub, maybe bad subs or trolls but any self respecting rogue knows sin was deep in the poo
grim mason
why would any rogue cry about a spec to their class getting buff
fallow otter
You can't be middle of the pack and expect buffs
grim mason
thats just weird its a win for our class
fallow otter
It's kinda silly
velvet ridge
im so excited for tuesday, been practing sin this weekend
steep badger
Because we’re cannibals m8
gusty kestrel
cause people don’t identify as rogues @grim mason
steep badger
I identify as a firetruck personally
fallow otter
I identify as dps in my raid
gusty kestrel
they only call themselves assa sub or outlaws
fallow otter
Some pick a class, some pick a spec even
grim mason
yeah its weird
gusty kestrel
lots of rogues only play one spec
and dont touch others
so whenever their spec is untouched they go peeposad
steep badger
The three rogue specs have always lived in harmonized chaos. We love to hate eachother and belittle one another using straw mans and false dichotomies to belittle the other specs and boost our own egos. It keeps for super toxic forum flaming but deep down we really just want an even playing field where only the rogue specs exist on the top 3 dps lists for raids and m+ and pvp. It’s really not a huge ask.
fallow otter
I can't criticise because they should play the game they want, but I also can't relate. I play whatever the best speed is for the situation, global locked sin at the end of corruption era or sub for the next phase of raiding and outlaw for keys until I realised rogues don't really have a seat at the table so now my 212 rogue is on the bench while I punch people with ww :)
grim canopy
so for m+ I SND after CT?
so i garrote 3 times, put CT, put slice and dice, put some garrotes. By then the druid has like 10 trillion dmg
balmy condor
Yep
velvet ridge
hey, if i have an oppurtunity to third envenom in shiv, but my rupture is like, expiring rn, do i enpowered envemon, or refresh the rupture
grim canopy
lol 😦
velvet ridge
same for slice n dice^
balmy condor
hey, if i have an oppurtunity to third envenom in shiv, but my rupture is like, ...
You would make sure that doesn’t happen, but if you must, you would refresh
velvet ridge
You also say shiv on CD, sometimes the durations dont line up, thats why i come across this situation. Thanks for answering
velvet ridge
30% yeah i have tick marks, should i be refreshing above pandemic if i know shiv is coming
balmy condor
Not really, no
grim mason
so that sin buff doesnt change anything for pvp huh
grim mason
yeah thats wut im thinking
fleet anchor
lots of rogues only play one spec
Really unfortunate this has become a thing tbh. I understand having one favorite, but I think WoW has gotten a little too spec-narrow among pure DPS classes. Most of the value of playing a pure is flexibility.
tame junco
i have one more question regarding PvP, if i put Exsanguinate + everybleed on my target and then go vanish with amster assassin equiped, do they crit then too? or it that damage to low to be good in pvp?
tame junco
oh yeah gonna go and ask there too then! ty tho
fleet whale
@fleet anchor I do understand why some people stick to one spec though even in pure classes. Take destro vs aff for example. Two specs of the same class, but also two drastic different ways of dealing damage and play style
gusty kestrel
Really unfortunate this has become a thing tbh. I understand having one favorite...
I fully agree. just a bit hard sometimes to flex really when the other specs are just not competitive at all
fleet anchor
Yeah I get that Varolyn, I think it's fine to have favorites
gusty kestrel
like mages right now, arcane and frost just lose in all situations
fleet anchor
I just am not a fan of the "one trick" mentality
fallow otter
Sticking to one is different to alienating the other and actively being a hater
gusty kestrel
and obviously crafting legendaries is another thing
which for now locks u into one spec more or less
unless u went for 2x r2 e.g.
fleet anchor
Like my favorite Rogue spec depends a bit on my mood, but I'm happy to play all 3.
low girder
generally for me it's sub, but i like and play all 3, and that's been my complaint for a while now
it's really hard to play multiple specs up to par now
fallow otter
Like my favorite Rogue spec depends a bit on my mood, but I'm happy to play all ...
Im the same for casual content but most of the time I'm just a slave to the numbers and enjoy playing the best for the situation
low girder
with all the shit you need
balmy condor
Sin boys 
fleet anchor
Yeah I mean I play in raid what I think will be best for the fights. atm for my raid it's primarily Outlaw, and I've enjoyed Outlaw for some time. But I really do like Sub, and wouldn't mind playing Assassination with a bit more Haste.
All just different flavors of Rogue to me
I get it's hard to keep up on it all
I think it's good to at least be proficient in 2 of the 3 specs at any given time
You never know when you may need to swap
low girder
i've been playing outlaw + x for years now
i'd play it now if i could get a weapon -.-
tuesday!
fleet anchor
I think part of it is that I returned back to Rogue in Legion and specifically during ToS because of raid needs
And learned Sub
And then basically immediately had to swap to Assassination for the next tier
So I kinda just approached it as being normal 😛
low girder
it's been pretty normal since i came back to the game in WoD
early legion was also extremely rough on playing multiple
it got better with every patch
fleet anchor
I played Feral and Havoc before then in WoD+early Legion
So I didn't really have choices
The choices of Rogue were some of the sell for me
fleet anchor
If I just wanted to ride or die with one spec, I'd probably still be Feral 😄
(because my one expection to the rule is that Balance Druids are icky)
I do agree Legendaries make it kinda annoying
But I still don't understand any Rogue that would be upset at Assassination getting buffed lol
low girder
just makes me glad i'm sitting on like 3k dust rn
after the announcement
prolly do r2 -> r3 celerity and wait out the week to see what happens
fleet anchor
I went ahead and grabbed R4 celerity since I'm playing Outlaw so much, but only had R2 Finality (due to Leather costs on our server being insane)
So I can get another R2 pretty easy
Just trying to decide if I get MA or Zoldyck next
low girder
ye i've got r3 finality atm
fleet anchor
R2 spam probably is the way to go tbh, given the limited increase from ilevel in the grand scheme of things
fallow otter
Slave to the numbers means I'm a ww atm koji 
I was one in legion and tbh ill go back when/if rogue takes over a raid spot but that will have to mean brm is also a tank
charred cliff
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
dense cedar
If I'm running the Blindside talent, do I always need to be behind the boss?
marsh fjord
hey guys i've been wondering if my main content is like raiding but i've been reading on covenants it's just a alt is kyrian still like the biggest dps covenant because people told me that a lot of rogues are going NF
balmy condor
If I'm running the Blindside talent, do I always need to be behind the boss?
I don’t get the question
ornate gazelle
Is the 8% aura buff to sims?
balmy condor
hey guys i've been wondering if my main content is like raiding but i've been re...
The difference between convenants isn’t major
balmy condor
Is the 8% aura buff to sims?
Sims are updated #tc-updates
ornate gazelle
@balmy condor Thank you so much!
balmy condor
don't i need to blindside them to make it work? <@!167090536602140682>
I actually hate you
dense cedar
fallow otter
Lol
dense cedar
i am the best assassination rogue in my household
summer cedar
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jEHuXR3piS5biynXjWtU9j fuck it i am going assa in 2 weeks 😄
patent ridge
Why 2 weeks? Isnt the buff coming at 12th ?
misty hemlock
Will assa be viable with that 8% buff?
balmy condor
Will assa be viable with that 8% buff?
pins
balmy condor
Why 2 weeks? Isnt the buff coming at 12th ?
probably legendary crafting reason
strange python
Why 2 weeks? Isnt the buff coming at 12th ?
Thats when I can craft the Lego
strange python
it's definitely stronger than sub on execute
Maybe can push ahead in slg as well
balmy condor
perhaps, yes
dusky oxide
is assass going to be viable in arena after the buff do you think?
patent ridge
is assass going to be viable in arena after the buff do you think?
In my experience no
naive geyser
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
inland heath
soo the guides are not consistent on stats priority for mythic+ . one says crit + ver , and the other say haste+ crit, which oen is right ?
balmy condor
I would say haste/crit
ornate lake
You can use sims for that Kill, by using Dungeonslice
balmy condor
that's what sims are showing, even in pure aoe from what I've seen
balmy condor
not really
just get the haste somewhere else
crit/vers isn't bad
all stats are fairly good (mastery lags behind a little, haste is a little ahead)
but you're pretty much just ilvl > everything
pseudo hamlet
Its possible to change atributes on the legendary?
balmy condor
not afaik
near pilot
Planning on a possible shift to sin with these changes, if I still plan on using outlaw for aoe and cleave fights should I aim for dashing over zy?
balmy condor
probably not
near pilot
Having an execute sounds exciting
balmy condor
sin's niche atm is being good at execute damage right now
if you're just wanting sustained single target
outlaw is probably still better
near pilot
Okay thanks, shame simming execute is tough
balmy condor
if you're savvy enough to search, I ran a sim that sort of emulates p3 sire, comparing a bis akaari setup to a bis zoldyck setup
you can have a look at those
I posted them originally in offtopic, but we had a discussion about it earlier with pushnoir
balmy condor
yup
near pilot
Just need a scrap mechanic to get some ash back lol
stoic needle
I've been doing some mid keys as sin this weekend, it's really not that bad
rupture sniping gives you like... so much energy regen
if FoK wasn't shit you could do some serious damage
pseudo hamlet
Are you guys changing conduit for M+? Poisoned katar seems strong for that.
dense cedar
what is a katar
balmy condor
the fok conduit
balmy condor
dense cedar
that doesn't seem like a throwing dagger
smh
even more
more like a fist weapon
blizz silly
pseudo hamlet
Then what kind of conduit should we use for M+? Lethal poisons?
pseudo hamlet
Isn't it more like a ST thing?
balmy condor
yeah but the prio is nice
sick kestrel
Hey guys what's the go to legendary for raiding? Zoldy?
balmy condor
yes
sick kestrel
Thanks 
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
vestal wren
fun thing is that assassination is beating subtlety on sustained aoe what is subtleties strengh now with black powder
its numerical still behind in dungeon slice and patchwork (dungeon slice likely due to the single target part)
hollow zephyr
vestal wren
hard to predict, outlaw still seems stronger overall
and subtlety provides better st
main forge
I find a lot of utility of using shadowdance to stun mobs in M+ which Sin doesn't provide.
stoic needle
I'm surprised to see venthyr simming so well.. haste good I guess
dense cedar
getting energy is nice
daring pecan
cuz nobody has access to it yet
green elk
So as a sub rogue with no good weapon to go outlaw, how do we think Assass will go in certain fights in CN?
Huntsman seems look a good spot with Zoldyck to test it out?
north basin
But we get acess to korayun covenant next week
So wild hunt tactics should elevate our damage at start and zoldyk pump it at execute
mental isle
Outlaw is best for all cn save ST fights like shriek, hungering, artificer
amber quail
I want to believe!
Fae by The start and 16-22-20-10 as stats...rogue is my sin😉
topaz saffron
Just to touch on Sin Rogue M+ conduits, I've seen above that Poisoned Katar isn't worth much value? What are you peoples running alongside Lethal Posions for your M+ runs?
quasi ledge
Well Placed Steel + Lethal Poisons if you are running double potency
young blaze
is assa going back? pog
grizzled jay
In the trash
young blaze
sadge
young vessel
YOOO
jagged elk
hey guys!
subterfuge opener in guides says:
garrote - potion - mutilate - snd - muti until 4+ cp - rupture
why shouldt we use ambush instead of mutilate due to subterfuge?
cheers
robust burrow
combo points? same energy, 4 cp, garrote + mutilate (5cp snd), mutilate (4cp rupture)...
spice spire
hey guys!
subterfuge opener in guides says:
garrote - potion - mutilate - snd -...
More damage (negligible) - possibility for more combo points is the main reason
robust burrow
using master assassin lego
daring pecan
mutilate is 2 hits that can crit separately, so you have 2 chances for an additional CP over ambush
spice spire
Yep! Mutilate will crit on MH and OH, so it ends up doing more with MA
jagged elk
but its the opener for supterfuge, not for MA
dire pebble
hey guys just finished leveling my sin rogue, wondering if kyrian is still the goto for raid/m+ dps in terms of numbers, answers appreciated ❤️
spice spire
All the same, a possibility to crit on two is worth more than the ambush, and it still does more damage
spice spire
hey guys just finished leveling my sin rogue, wondering if kyrian is still the g...
Covenant doesn’t matter. Kyrian and night fae are the best, it seems. Venthyr and Necro lords aren’t far behind though. It’s all relatively close. Do what you want
jagged elk
alright, ty!
spice spire
Anytime! And good luck!
strange python
Huntsman seems look a good spot with Zoldyck to test it out?
In Huntsman MA is the best for total dps - vanish before killing a shade and boom!
strange python
Just to touch on Sin Rogue M+ conduits, I've seen above that Poisoned Katar isn'...
On fortified weeks I go with steel+katar, on tyranical I go with steel+lethal
charred cliff
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
granite copper
Repost from general because I dont wanna just hear the opinion of already assasin rogues who are bias to agreeing but...
How do we feel about the assassination buff coming tomorrow. 8% buff to ALL damaging abilities. That seems...huge. this next question may be stupid af but....does this mean we will see a parse score jump of around 8%? If thats the case, based off of week 4 dps scores from mythic Nath, sin rogues will jump to like 88.5.
That like, nearly competes with outlaw
pearl surge
I'll be happy when I see all 3 Rogue specs even out and it becomes about playstyle, not which is most viable
stuck tartan
An 8% buff to our abilities isnt an 8% buff to our dps
Too much damage coming from autoattacks already
pearl surge
Prolly closer to 4% since 8% to abilities won't include AA
Being fair, in Classic AA damage is a HUGE part of Rogue DPS
granite copper
So...we speculating something like a 4% jump? Thats still a respectable 85...higher than sub rogue rn
thorn echo
I will be simming at about 5k so it puts us in line with sub st and we can move without losing all of our dps and are actually useful in raid for soaks etc
Def reeling in the other 2 specs
shy dust
I’m pretty sure
thorn echo
We’ve actually never been that far behind if im really honestly
thorn echo
Possibly true
thorn echo
That is also true
granite copper
Is there a big gear swap from sub to sin?
I'm really tempted to piss off my raid lead and try it out
patent ridge
Is there a big gear swap from sub to sin?
Yes
thorn echo
Just getting that leggo but i’d leave that to the proper gear guys
pearl surge
Assassin is haste/mastery, yes?
thorn echo
My best is haste crit atm
granite copper
I am low-key kinda haste stacked from heroic CN gear tho
iron orchid
Assassin is haste/mastery, yes?
More Haste/Haste
strange python
Prolly closer to 4% since 8% to abilities won't include AA
in aoe it will be closer to 8% than to 4% tbh
granite copper
Hmmm
iron orchid
With a side of crit and vers
granite copper
If we cry to blizz saying slice and dice is an ability and should give us 8% buff melee i bet they'll listen
stuck tartan
Assassin is haste/mastery, yes?
Mastery is our worst stat right now
granite copper
My next concerning question, and I apologize for baby mode 101 here but, how much harder/easier is sin rogues compared to sub managing consistent dps (not high numbers, just damage on target) and roto
strange python
sin has a harder aoe and simpler ST
also more forgiving mechanics impact on total dps
iron orchid
My next concerning question, and I apologize for baby mode 101 here but, how muc...
To me, sub is a real effort to get your rotation perfect.
The gameplay of sin lies in small details that make big changes in your dps
thorn echo
What i wanna cry for is a bit more energy thats the worst bit atm for me
pearl surge
Yeah, one reason I complain about Feral is they get an awesome ability that gives mad energy and every mob that dies with a bleed on it resets the CD
You literally have 0 energy issues with Feral
thorn echo
Yea
stuck tartan
Yeah, one reason I complain about Feral is they get an awesome ability that give...
...U regen energy if an enemy dies with rupture on
iron orchid
What i wanna cry for is a bit more energy thats the worst bit atm for me
You only feel it in st, and i don't feel like i lack energy that much compared to earlier bfa.
As long as you fight two or more targets (and you do it correctly), you should be extra fine with energy
brisk forge
Smart move is to rupture a mob that is about to die
stuck tartan
Only if you reaaaally need that energy
brisk forge
Ofc
thorn echo
Not worth the cp unless maybe you have 1?
pearl surge
...U regen energy if an enemy dies with rupture on
I was unaware of this. That said, Feral is ANY bleed.
Like I say, it's just evening out the two that would make me happy. Get rid of this 8% nonsense
thorn echo
Yea ferals version is better but you still have to use a heal mid rotation sooo nah
strange python
Smart move is to rupture a mob that is about to die
I often do this - in fights like council it helps a ton to rupture the dying assistant
stuck tartan
Yea ferals version is better but you still have to use a heal mid rotation sooo ...
not anymore?
thorn echo
Has that changed? Please say yes
stuck tartan
didnt they changed to be 3 different cp generators
thorn echo
I hope so
pearl surge
You don't HAVE to heal but they do get a handy instaheal
Saved my hide more than thrice
thorn echo
Put me off so hard having to heal midrota to snapshot
That’s actually quite a cool ability now from the looks at least
pearl surge
My point is, though, that Blizz has almost no thinking required: mirror the two, adjust for class-specific abilities and roll with it. Flat damage buffs won't fix the underlying rogue issues
granite copper
Well hopefully this does something, because you know once this goes live they wont touch the spec for another month or 2
thorn echo
Honestly i only want that bit mor eng gen so it feels better. comp wise rogue has a place in a normal guild, unless you’ve been gimped for mm hunters but sin allows you to be helpful with boss mechanics while not gimping yourself so jt will always be my main for that. + we’re now an execute class that can climb in a long 30% phase ie huntsman shriek(ish) i mean correct me but it could be worse imo. I will miss being high rank sin when this buff goes through tho!
dense cedar
they made it worse lol
the heal for bladtalons was way betterthan current
cool spelling
sinful sentinel
Trying to decide which leggo to make
spice spire
Trying to decide which leggo to make
For sin, best all around is Zoldyck’s
mortal tartan
you should make stable phantasma lure
strange python
I’m stuck in the old mindset so it’s hard for me to adjust to rogue as a “utility class”. I believe rogue should be #1 damage on any patchwerk fight and if they aren’t it’s poor game design.
If you can sit on a boss uninterrupted as rogue and you’re like 7th that’s so against my personal class fantasy that it’s hard to cope. Lol
mortal tartan
yeah i think classes with only dps specs should be the harder hitting classes
like mages and locks
but idk if rogues should be no.1
strange python
Well it’s comes down to type of fight
Single target 100% uptime = rogue, multitarget full uptime = lock, burst phases on shortlived aoe targets = mage
I think the current iteration of affliction is basically the rogue class fantasy for single target for me
If you can stand still and wreck then you’re uncatchable
spice spire
8% buff makes it viable
strange python
Yea but your definition of viable is probably like mine haha
spice spire
In theory
pastel notch
it could legit be decent, Sin always performs closer to the sims than other specs
mortal tartan
i think im the only rogue main in my entire guild so i don't want to be kicked off the core prog group for playing sin
north basin
Do we have any sim comparing all classes sub 30% phase damage?
strange python
That’s an interesting question
strange python
Makes you useful on prog sludge
granite copper
Just wait until week 6 dps chart comes out and shove it into ur raid leads face if it performs qell
spice spire
It’ll perform well. But not amazingly. The 8% buff won’t put it top ten
It just moves it more in line
strange python
The 8% buff won’t move it out of the bottom quartile
And you’ll still be the worst rogue spec
granite copper
Will it surpass sub in the 2+ fights... time will tell
mortal tartan
is sin supposed to be the easiest rogue spec
pastel notch
Sin definitely more forgiving, and less punished for doing mechanics etc
strange python
Yea so better than sub on huntsman but way behind outlaw
spice spire
It may, but I’m pretty doubtful.
I don’t think it will be the worst. Sub had better raw numbers, but there are so many choices to fumble your damage (cool downs at the wrong time, poor boss timing) so it might be better on a lot of fights than sub
north basin
Lets say sub do 5.5k with perfect rotation and timing and sin do in same gear 5.3k but with yolo ezmode rotation, we will rise of sin rogues, people tend to gravitate to stable and ez playstyle)
mortal tartan
i 99% parsed on huntsman as sub and idk wtf i was doing the entire time i think the logs bugged
pastel notch
meh, there's some fights where the dps meter is just a lie, look at dance boss - Outlaw doing good cleave is completely irrelevant
strange python
The problem with this line of thinking is we aren’t comparing sim numbers
We are comparing real log numbers
pastel notch
the only people still playing Sin are bin bags rn, let's be real
granite copper
A theoretical buff of 4% total dmg to assasin rogue places it above sub rogue while referencing week 4 dps chart
strange python
But it’s not difficult enough for that to be a 10% increase lol
mortal tartan
i tried playing sin in torghast and i couldnt get past the first floor
granite copper
Just pull the whole floor nerd
pastel notch
We'll soon find out, I'm gonna try sin out in Heroic run this week; maybe try it on Mythic re-clear and see what it looks like
worth a shot
sharp orchid
@mortal tartan easy to 99 parse if there is a low number to compare to. How many logs are there for sin
strange python
Yea worth a shot
granite copper
The ONLY shit thing is having to blow soulash on legs
Like. I could go rank 3 finality or... rank 2 assasin for testing and gamble
Thata my choice this week
north basin
Tomorrow will will see many maga region reclears with pro sin rogue wannabies. So we look into the logs and see
pastel notch
my big gripe with Sub is being punished for movement at times; Sin suffers much less from that - still expected to do soaks etc because you're a rogue but you can lose so much dps by doing mechanics if you time poorly 
granite copper
You lose heaps of dps on hungering, shriek, etc with movement
pastel notch
Plus would be cool to be Sin in raid, Outlaw in M+ and Sub in PvP 
Master of the class
granite copper
I wonder if sin will actual creep on the sub rogue territory there
sharp orchid
I have 2 maxed rogue and you know damn well one is sitting as sin from this point forward
granite copper
How do you access logs from a singular day?
sharp orchid
Favourite spec by far
granite copper
Like tomorrow how can I check sin rogue prog on logs?
pastel notch
Slightly off topic, is Sepsis affected by Sin rogue at all does anyone know? Cause it's nature damage and a dot
granite copper
Word
rigid wyvern
Sepsis is buffed by Shiv is the only interaction I know of
pastel notch
Mm, quite minor then I suppose
plain thistle
wowhead, mmochampion
stuck tartan
the blue post, or opinions?
strange python
usually the first thing i look at when i hop on disc is the wowheadnews channel
marsh nova
Is there anyway to make a blindside proc replace my mutilate bind with ambush?
Or am I stuck using separate binds for both?
spice spire
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
pulsar sluice
idk guys...i honestly think sin will perform
with all the mechanics we gotta soak and move out of like hungering n shit
if you fuck up the timing on sub your dps is fucked
if you move away from the boss as outlaw your dps is fucked
frail fossil
if you move away from the boss as outlaw your dps is fucked
not really
more a sub thing
wind canopy
more a sub thing
Either way law is losing more dps than sin not actively hitting something right
wind canopy
Idk if he’s saying it’s better
wind canopy
But might be okay
stoic needle
It's the same for sin just less of one
spice spire
That goes for any class. I think you’re all vastly overestimating how much bleed does for sin.
stoic needle
Autos and IP procs are a large part of our damage
spice spire
Melee is our top damage 
pulsar sluice
its still more uptime on dps as you move
frail fossil
at least gonna be even
frail fossil
its still more uptime on dps as you move
again, it's only ur bleeds, and if u cant have uptime to reapply them, the dps gain isn't as big as u think compared to outlaw lol
like yeah it's "less" punished by downtime i guess
spice spire
Probably not Envenom.
pulsar sluice
idk all i know is imma play outlaw for shit like sunking but when the two target cleave comes in i think sin will be good, and stuff like hungering
frail fossil
but it's w/e if outlaw just does more damage 
quasi pewter
~30% of ur damage is dots
frail fossil
sin would be good for execute
balmy stump
2 targets sin crushes sub
spice spire
Sin is good for execute.
frail fossil
2 targets sin crushes sub
yes, any 2 target spec crushes sub
quasi pewter
sub and outlaw are still going to outperform sin by quite a bit
stoic needle
A better argument would be about spread cleave where outlaw can't reach everything but sin can run around and multi dot
I think sin and sub are gonna be much more even but outlaw is just a lot better
quasi pewter
its good on denathrius prog
stoic needle
I was putting out 6k stable dps on 5 target dummies last night with just oil/stone and flask after a key that's no joke
Just multi dotting and ct
stuck tartan
The buff make it viable, not better than the other two
stoic needle
Didn't even get to envenom
frail fossil
I was putting out 6k stable dps on 5 target dummies last night with just oil/sto...
bro have u tried 5 target dummies as outlaw
stoic needle
I'm just saying people are talking about how sub will outperform sin still and I don't think that's gonna be the case
stuck tartan
only st
stoic needle
There's the uptime argument for ST and sin is just plain better in aoe
balmy condor
The uptime thing isn’t really all that major
Like it’s barely worth mentioning tbh
Sub has rupture too now, and the damage on that is quite decent
stuck tartan
Tbh I hate that sub has rupture
balmy condor
So really you’re just profiting from garrote and dot poison
Which is kinda whatever
But strictly speaking, sure
Sin suffers less from downtime
primal zinc
whos says sins are not viable in raid or even subs are better?
balmy condor
Sin is viable
primal zinc
its 8% reasons better from wens reset
primal zinc
that dps is as decent as subs
daring pecan
quasi pewter
its not
stuck tartan
quasi pewter
and wont be
daring pecan
this channel really is the gift that keeps on giving
quasi pewter
assa is still the worst spec