I would love to play assa as it's my favorite spec by far, but it's not going to be at the same level as sub/outlaw unfortunately.
#assassination
stoic needle
if you look at the numbers its objectively not true
limber lion
Even Whispyr who onetricks assa and talks about it every day agrees.
delicate bone
i wouldnt say "fact" since the buff doesnt even go live until the 12 iirc?
limber lion
Show us the numbers.
stoic needle
look at fuus evaluation spreadsheet
pearl surge
Thoughts on this 8% buff on Tues?
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
balmy condor
Even Whispyr who onetricks assa and talks about it every day agrees.
sir I have not played sin all expansion excuse you
wise robin
New to rogue, can someone explain to me why Dashing Scoundrel is better than Zoldyck? I mean, all things considered - from my POV the execute dmg makes more sense? Please help me understand Scoundrel
limber lion
sir I have not played sin all expansion excuse you
ok im trolling sorry lmao
balmy condor
its pure single target
dashing > zoldyck on 1 target specifically
if you're doing prog
that execute is worth more
if you're hitting more than 1 target
its worth more
wise robin
So on paper, Scoundrel is better pure ST? But in effect Zoldyck outperforms?
delicate bone
@balmy condor i know this is almost semantics.. but isnt the buff technically over 13% total? since it was 5% and then another 8% from what the 5% brought it to? should be pretty decent if its actually a bit more than 13%
delicate bone
that actually sounds like itll be pretty decent if im being honest, just have to wait and see i guess
limber lion
sin was already better than sub on cleave and aoe
Go look at the current mythic logs. Assa is 600 dps behind on Huntsman, a pure 2 target cleave fight. A fight that assa excels in. On heroic the difference is 1.4k dps. Sure the pool is smaller, but it's a huge gap regardless. On ST fights it's not even comparable. The nerfs will bring it more in line with sub/outlaw in cleave situations, but currently it's not better than the other specs.
gleaming fable
Do you think good players are currently raiding mythic as assa?
For now, It's much better to look at sims, and sin is looking quite viable based on sims
drifting cloud
nice wall of text to prove you cant read the logs sir
limber lion
There's certainly some that are true tryhard assa rogue one tricks and who are blessed to have the opportunity to progress with the spec on their guild.
gleaming fable
That is an extremely small sample size of people, not worth considering IMO
delicate bone
Go look at the current mythic logs. Assa is 600 dps behind on Huntsman, a pure 2...
¯_(ツ)_/¯
gleaming fable
^
limber lion
But the numbers are so low comparatively and most high end guilds will prefer sub/outlaw over them.
stoic needle
the top mythic sin rogue is actually dogshit at sin iirc
he opens with double garotte on st
limber lion
Exactly, like I said in my reply. The pool is a lot smaller, so it's harder to say.
gleaming fable
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
tender tinsel
Assa really does need a serious buff
Ass and Frost Mage are so far behind everyone else
stoic needle
after this tuning it needs a rework
limber lion
But the few good assa players are not performing as well as the few good sub players.
gleaming fable
go look at sin and add the 8% buff and it is looking pretty promising, especially on cleave
stoic needle
not more raw number buffs
tender tinsel
Like the week I swapped from Assa to Sub I jumped 6 spaces on the meters
low girder
it's not 8% btw, it's like 5%
dim yacht
id like to see something to make our aoe a bit better personally
low girder
it doesn't affect auto attacks
limber lion
Exactly, assa will be in line on cleave fights and possibly even win out. But currently it's not winning sub/outlaw in any situation.
delicate bone
the 8% buff still puts it slightly behind on most fights, but i dont think anyone has ever said that sin would be taken over the other 2
dim yacht
speaking of aoe, does the memory of past sins work on fan of knives, applying to all targets? or just one
limber lion
Oshosi said earlier that assa is already currently better than sub on cleave/aoe fights, which is not true whatsoever.
gleaming fable
Exactly, assa will be in line on cleave fights and possibly even win out. But cu...
You are contradicting yourself there my dude. They can't "possibly even win out" and "not win in any situation" at the same time lol
raw cedar
Where did you guys read the 8% buff to assa?
stoic needle
but it literally is on the sims lol
stone epoch
it's in the upcoming tuning notes for next reset
balmy condor
Where did you guys read the 8% buff to assa?
wowhead has the link, you can check in #wowheadnews
delicate bone
Oshosi said earlier that assa is already currently better than sub on cleave/aoe...
it is though, Oshosi said nothing about the numbers from actual fights
wise robin
raw cedar
Thanks!!! @wise robin
limber lion
You are contradicting yourself there my dude. They can't "possibly even win out"...
What? No I'm not. CURRENTLY they do not win any situation, but AFTER the buffs they could win on certain fights.
stoic needle
just because a human being can't execute the spec properly doesn't make the numbers any less wrong
i outdpsed a MM hunter as sin on shriekwing. does that suddenly make the sim potential of hunter invalid?
gleaming fable
What? No I'm not. CURRENTLY they do not win any situation, but AFTER the buffs t...
fair enough i agree with that, just can't really use logs as any evidence for sin atm due to the small sample size IMO
shut garnet
sub boys malding their spec is gonna be lower than the low mid tier its at now lmao
gleaming fable
Sub will still be technically bis single target so 🤷
raw cedar
The problem with the spec is energy regen and having to keep up bleeds and S&D, u can barely envenom
fleet whale
that has little to do with sin's tuning
cursive plaza
any fights in particular SIN may be top tier for in Mythic Castle Nathria raid...and if so what legendary would I want to play with....was thinking maybe playing SIN over sub for cleave fights, maybe artificer since theres alot of movement?
gleaming fable
sin will shit on sub for cleave, the question is whether it will surpass outlaw for cleave
fleet whale
and energy regen isn't really a problem for sin st
it's at 46 apm for me in ST at 198 ilvl
raw cedar
@fleet whale how much haste do u have?
fleet whale
15% haste
raw cedar
do you have the crit energy regen legendary?
fleet whale
no
wise robin
I think if you're at 15+% haste you should be good, since SnD also gives 10% energy regen in SIN spec.
fleet whale
46 apm is perfectly fine for sin and is in fact faster than usual
stoic needle
my sin sims at 50 apm at 205 ilvl
fleet whale
50 apm is fast for assassin
raw cedar
what's apm?
wise robin
action per minute
fleet whale
actions per minute
raw cedar
what did you guys have toward the end of BFA if I might ask?
shut garnet
78% unbuffed 
spice spire
I have 22% haste at 205 rn. 769 total. Yeah I’ll admit, assassin is starting VERY fast
raw cedar
Are you using the blindside or EP build?
raw cedar
what about second and third row of talents?
spice spire
I’m using EP. but when I sim, difference is fairly negligible. I’m required to do most melee mechanics so I don’t want an extra proc to fuck me ngl
spice spire
what about second and third row of talents?
Subterfuge and Vigor
In ST. mfD is pretty good in m+
stoic needle
yep
fleet whale
i think blindside is more fun but that's just imo
raw cedar
do we have an idea on stat priority already?
stoic needle
agreed, i like blindside a lot
vast patio
Just saw the news, we out of the dumpster yet?
raw cedar
I dont think 8% is enough tbh...
fringe saffron
Do we need double daggers for ass rogues, or non dagger oh works too
raw cedar
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
vast patio
double dags for mutilate to work
spice spire
Just saw the news, we out of the dumpster yet?
spice spire
Do we need double daggers for ass rogues, or non dagger oh works too
Double daggers only
fleet whale
assassin should be viable after the buffs
spice spire
And the stats are more or less correct.
fleet whale
the issue now isn't so much assassin being weak but the top specs being way too strong
mm and balance need nerfs
and unholy dk
spice spire
I think everything being more in line is a good thing. Papa blizzard gave us a gift, they’re just a small Indie company, let’s not get too greedy 
dim yacht
does the memory of past sins trinket work on fan of knives, applying to all targets? or just one
balmy condor
just one
dim yacht
damn, we really just have no aoe do we
is CT worth taking like...ever? i know its better on mass aoe, but how often is that really applicable
stoic needle
I think everything being more in line is a good thing. Papa blizzard gave us a g...
ct baseline tho
ct is better on 2 targets isn't it?
dim yacht
CT baseline would be great
limber lion
Yes
dim yacht
is it really worth taking over poison bomb though?
dim yacht
hmm alright, ill give it a shot then
CT is the best thing ever in torghast with first steps power
balmy condor
seli was actually playing nightstalker with MFD CT during beta for a little
stone haven
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
dim yacht
hmmm, i could see that being interesting
stoic needle
that sounds like fun
stoic needle
ct snapshots with NS?
balmy condor
of course
mossy sable
So someone in my guild believes Sin will out damage Sub possibly in MT situations come reset
balmy condor
in what situations?
mossy sable
Is that actually something that could be true?
balmy condor
main tank?
mossy sable
M+
balmy condor
yes
stoic needle
I might have to try out ct ns in Torghast for vein rippers
mossy sable
I am just glad I may be able to multispepc
proper forge
dang mastery is last for sin too?
obtuse garnet
Yep
proper forge
sadge
balmy condor
why do I see so many high io rogues who're necrolord?
probably cause they started necro for lbe cheese or they needed necro for the m+ utility
proper forge
yup
strange python
is there a chance that asn will be a viable at high end m+ with this buff?
mossy sable
Yeah I know that the top Law rogue rn uses it for team utility last I checked
strange python
i really enjoyed the 3+ target dotting from bfa
proper forge
my outlaw gear is vers>haste so it's not as good for sin but it still works
mossy sable
RIght but still better than Sub
I am not going to Main Sin
For M+ I will still play Law
But I may raid as Sin
proper forge
me neither but specs kinda fun so ill play it for a bit
same yea
i might definitely pvp as sin tho
cba to win/lose pvps based on rtb buffs
fathom swift
the buff is for pvp too ya?
balmy condor
yes
fathom swift
cool i hate pvping as sub
and i feel like im trolling my team playing outlaw in pvp
mortal pike
Man its insane how close all the covs sim for assa
proper forge
sadge
mortal pike
having such a hard time emotionally deciding
I feel like the nightfae ability is just kinda boring
proper forge
i picked venthyr since everyone told me covenants are fairly close
and i liked them the most
my only regret is that kyrian torghast powerups are omega broken
while venthyr are... nonexistent...
20cp finisher lol
mortal pike
time to go necrolord for the cool bone wings
languid ore
Spec saved bois
balmy condor
pins
proper forge
whispyr typing pins every 2 mins 
languid ore
Yea just saw
proper forge
must be fun
balmy condor
part of the job
fleet whale
what's the hourly rate?
fathom swift
job? you dont get paid
balmy condor
true
eternal herald
having such a hard time emotionally deciding
7 point envenoms with Kyrian are awesome
balmy condor
koffing just locks me back into my cage at night
mossy sable
I do it in Law chat too it's just the life of discords
fleet whale
a stick of gum an hour?
mortal pike
ah yea I bet thats juicy eh
grim canopy
crimson tempest in M+?
languid ore
Just change name to 'check pins' 60% of the time, it works every time
balmy condor
crimson tempest in M+?
yes
dense cedar
I am the Crimson Tempest
mossy sable
Lies
quaint lark
wtb SS conduit
mossy sable
My guild mate is filling my head with doubt
He said that 13% may still not be enough
Based on some math he did
stoic needle
languid ore
Napkin math is best math
dense cedar
have u seen the math?
mossy sable
And hes usually pretty damn good at math and shit when it comes to this
quaint lark
Tell him he don’t know shit and he’s bad at math
mortal pike
define
dense cedar
just making sure cos i forgot
dense cedar
Mikanikos > Kliea for Sin right?
balmy condor
Mikanikos > Kliea for Sin right?
not usually
stoic needle
Imagine that, someone who doesn't play rogue talking about rogue theorycrafting
dense cedar
depression
eternal herald
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
dense cedar
rip owl man
stoic needle
Sounds like a totally reliable and trustworthy source 
dense cedar
The crit just better thna the haste? @balmy condor
mossy sable
Sounds like a totally reliable and trustworthy source <:peepohappy:5857404132230...
I told him we will see until Tuesday
mortal pike
my hunters parses are 99 average 8^) leme pop some rogue math
mossy sable
XD
mortal pike
I mean assa wont be god tier
I imagine once they update the sim profile
a couple % behind sub/outlaw
mossy sable
I don't need it to be god tier
balmy condor
yes
mossy sable
I need it to not be a meme to suggest playing
balmy condor
it's not going to be anything omega giga damage
mortal pike
Its going to be good enough that if you like it
balmy condor
but it's going to be viable enough to not get laughed at
dense cedar
pls someone tell me why qq
mortal pike
will be a 70-80th percentile
dog tier gamer
beat*
and really at the end of the day, that's all you need in life
balmy condor
The crit just better thna the haste? <@!167090536602140682>
tbh, i don't know what traits kyrian stuff gives what
mortal pike
be the best YOU that you can be
balmy condor
I just remember in my bis list, seeing kleia above mik
dense cedar
1-5% crit based on nearby enemies and allies for kliea
mossy sable
So mastery isn't really a important stat for Sin now?
stoic needle
Venthyr is a good QoL upgrade to the st flow of sin
It gives some nice energy
As long as you remember to reactivate it
dense cedar
It will be when the next patch brings back Agonising Poison @mossy sable
mossy sable
Huh
stoic needle
I wish draven were an actually good soulbind
proper forge
+1
mossy sable
I wish draven were an actually good soulbind
Thats my PvP one for sure
proper forge
is draven even good for anyone
mossy sable
It will be when the next patch brings back Agonising Poison <@!17794134482681856...
Explain
proper forge
like do tanks even want his shit
dense cedar
twas a meme
mossy sable
is draven even good for anyone
Tanks maybe?
dense cedar
they aren't gonna do that
proper forge
yeah thats what i was thinking as well
mossy sable
Damn
dense cedar
AP is unhealthy for the game
mossy sable
You got my HOPES UP
I just want an ability not dog shit for M+
And PvP
But also I love the story for vethyr
dense cedar
i just want a 2nd dagger
mossy sable
PvP dagger is what I got
stoic needle
I would like a dagger over 200 ilvl
fleet whale
that 184 pvp dagger
dense cedar
i got a 203 dagger from mists yesterday
balmy condor
@dense cedar
dense cedar
so im halfway there
fleet whale
can be 197 next reset
balmy condor
dense cedar
if i can get a 1hander that's an upgrade
gonna go after that in the dung first lol
can someone who actually has proper gear for sin
dense cedar
Top Gear sim themselves with a full Mikanikos and full Kliea soulbind tree
grim canopy
The best assassination rogue is a korean guy named Peen
mossy sable
205
dense cedar
203 
mossy sable
I got lucky on drops and grinded a fuck ton
dense cedar
i got 184 boots
dense cedar
i actually haven't seen anyone in myp arty get leather boots
even for themselves
hellworld
proper forge
what are they called?
mossy sable
This is my Castaway set
proper forge
that's more or less what i have too
dense cedar
yarhar
dense cedar
also if someone is doing that thing i asked tell me so i know
proper forge
tytyty
dense cedar
or i'll just keep asking
grim canopy
anyone know o fsome assassin rogue streamers
balmy condor
anyone know o fsome assassin rogue streamers
yeah, me next week 
grim canopy
nice
balmy condor
I don't think anyone is playing sin atm though
so
would be difficult to find one
and idk who's rerolling
proper forge
i dont even know where do i get daggers from
like where do i get vers>haste daggers from in m+
cause i can use those for both specs
fleet whale
grinding M+ for daggers is honestly not a good idea
dense cedar
don't grind
proper forge
not necessarily for dagger
proper forge
but if i see a dungeon that i normally wouldn't do but has a chance of dropping a dagger I might add it into my pool
balmy condor
what are we looking for
proper forge
sd and halls give nothing to me XD
balmy condor
vers haste dagger?
dense cedar
SD has good gear in it
balmy condor
mists
dense cedar
its just annoying
balmy condor
sanguine also does
dense cedar
stupid stack mechanic timed with quaking
balmy condor
I think
dense cedar
SD is fucking loaded with good gear
proper forge
sanguine is such a pain with pug tanks
i ask people to tank mobs into the canisters and nobody does
mortal pike
Is there a decent consensus on the best cov for mainly M+ as assaa? Im assuming...kyrian? or maybe necro?
dense cedar
might want to get pug tanks that have at least done the dungeon once
mortal pike
What does fae get at 31 😮
dense cedar
Kyrian if ur cool
balmy condor
first strike
proper forge
no clue what fae soulbind tree is, what's first strike
dense cedar
gain loads of crit if u attack a target before they attack u
Take CT so u don't get bombs
balmy condor
korayn end of tree, crit on pull basically
proper forge
sick
mortal pike
Is poison bomb as juicy as it was in legion? I mained assa in legion and had some 100th percentile pulls where it was literally
my top damage rofl
dense cedar
Legion pbomb was fucked
mortal pike
yea it was
balmy condor
got nerfed into the ground after that
proper forge
actual snooze specs
mortal pike
I find mm really fun honestly
dense cedar
Sin is the true snooze spec tho
proper forge
i have my rogue a ww and a vengance
dense cedar
clockwatching fun tho
proper forge
planning on leveling my destro and fire as well
proper forge
i cant play affli
dense cedar
but i also like dots
dense cedar
also becuase they use drain life
grim canopy
do balance its the easy version of afflock and better too
dense cedar
don't have to hardcast anything except UA and the big burst button
proper forge
doesn't balance have as many buttons as mm in their rotation
dense cedar
Balance is actually boring as shit tho
proper forge
like 2 or 3
grim canopy
Less cooldowns and 1 less dot. fixed easy rotation
proper forge
i play destro cause i like big numbers and the animation is fun :P
gritty falcon
Is sin any good atm? returning after a decent break
dense cedar
it will be okayish come the 12th
dense cedar
does heroic or mythic have any proper execute phases?
or are the fights pretty linear?
proper forge
who will be the bottom spec now? 🤔
balmy condor
sin
dense cedar
lol
balmy condor
oh
proper forge
i doubt frost goes above sin even with the buffs
balmy condor
dunno
dense cedar
BM could do 1k dps ST and still be played
daring imp
SO 8% NOW BOIS WE FINALLY GONNA BE GR8
proper forge
no nerf for unholy though
thin gate
guys
wind canopy
I set up my sin bars and joined a pug normal and got rank 26 normal shreikwing first time playing sim AMA
dense cedar
Reading is hard
dense cedar
cerulean walrus
fleet whale
it will be amazing for torghast
thin gate
what about destroyer?
fair storm
WArriors will be a S tier class next raid tier cuz of their recent buff and scaling
Reroll warr if ur preparing
dense cedar
Warrior is stinky af even if that were true
tho i guess arms can be kinda nice
Fury big lame tho
just remembered
on the row with Venom rush, alac, and exsang
the torghast power grants venom rush
lmao
balmy condor
venom rush isn't actually that bad
dense cedar
it ~seeeeems~ bad
balmy condor
I mean
dense cedar
when looking at that row
balmy condor
single target though
dense cedar
i think i'd prefer the 6 energy version
balmy condor
the legion increased venom wounds?
balmy condor
it would be the single target pick
balmy condor
but alac would be the aoe pick
dense cedar
ik
just very funny
what was that talent u put in the venom rush slot in ur thing again?
balmy condor
your what now
balmy condor
oh
dense cedar
u pplaced something else in the Venom rush slot iirc
balmy condor
its a kingsbane look-alike
poison application increases nature damage taken
resetting on finisher
dense cedar
yum
rotund oak
could it be the assa return by the next reset boys?
balmy condor
pins
balmy condor
people would read them?
dense cedar
why would people always asks questions answered by them
balmy condor
true
dense cedar
exactly
dense cedar
1 of the 2 people who were talking in here
was the person who wrote the pin
why would u need their opinion again lol
buoyant mauve
huh, I guess the small pool of mut parses really does make it seem worse. did way better tonight in raid then I thought I would
an extra 8% is gonna feel even better
rotund oak
8% is gonna put assa to competitive status,for sure
fleet anchor
my opinion is the pin
Where can I find that? I'd like to check it out.
fleet anchor
Hey, if it makes you feel better I just did Layer 4 as Assassination for science
balmy condor
that's what I'm doing
fleet anchor
And while I couldn't replicate Seli's buggy-ass Vein Rippers interaction, whatever tf it was... it was still pretty fun
Assassination does become extremely strong with high stats
balmy condor
fleet anchor
That isn't really a surprise
loud niche
so, i've seen a lot of people on logs using zoldyk's, but i saw that fuu's pin says dashing scoundrel
which one is actually better?
balmy condor
koji is a tc
fleet anchor
Like 400% spender with Shadowstep + Crimson Tempest + Nightstalker + a billion Agility is pretty huge dam lol
fleet anchor
I honestly haven't looked at them too closely recently since I'm not playing Assassination too much right now, but Fuu runs a lot of the combo sims so I assume he knows. Unless the pin is old. I can check. 🙂
buoyant mauve
whispyr usually says something like, "dashing does more when it comes to pure st but zol is not to far behind and is much better once you can aoe"
iirc
fleet anchor
I'm not totally sure why I'd see a difference for AoE though since Dashing is good there too. Maybe even better.
balmy condor
dashing falls off hard
loud niche
okay, sry if that was FAQ
balmy condor
you add targets, dashing kinda meh
fleet anchor
Dashing falls off if you are multi-dotting and get energy capped but it lets you maintain fewer DoTs and Crimson Tempest spam without going out of energy
fleet anchor
So kinda depends
balmy condor
so comparatively, the energy is worth, less
fleet anchor
But Zoldyck is certainly a good all-around option
But I don't think that is inconsistent with Fuu's pin anyhow
lucid stirrup
how bad is assassination at the moment, compared to the other specs for m+ ?
loud niche
Hopefully this makes sin actually competitive with sub so i can play the spec i prefer 😍
balmy condor
how bad is assassination at the moment, compared to the other specs for m+ ?
weaker than sub in single target, weaker than outlaw in aoe
static glacier
is sub better than outlaw st?
balmy condor
yes
fleet anchor
Better short term burst, not particularly better sustain
They are about the same sustained atm
balmy condor
if you give it 20 seconds, sub wins
dense cedar
I am also a TC
balmy condor
if you give it longer, it gets closer
static glacier
I don't doubt sub has better burst, I just don't know about sustained st tbh
loud niche
so, when the buffs come, how close will sin be to otl in aoe and sub in ST?
lucid stirrup
i really enjoyed assassin end of bfa but everywhere i look i see that assassination is a dead spec. is this just meta purists talking loudly and the spec is actually still viable in m+ content, or is it really that much weaker?
fleet anchor
I mean at SL launch Assassination was a good 20% behind
It was a non-trivial amount
Now it should be close enough
It likely still won't be optimal for a few things but it should be good enough to be "viable" if that is the threshold being discussed
loud niche
so if you're going off 20%, it would still be 7% behind :S
static glacier
the loss of shrouded suffocation hurt sin a lot in m+ imo.
balmy condor
wow koji, with concise answers like that you could really take my job
have you ever thought about being a community figure
dense cedar
I'll take ur job Whispyr
lucid stirrup
yeah i really liked the shrouded suffocation traits. thank you all
fleet anchor
I mean, when I have time between working on 4 APLs I guess 🤔
balmy condor
seems unnecessary
balmy condor
can't you just tell the other classes to get their own TC's
fleet anchor
We could follow the Warlock model I guess 😄
balmy condor
whats happening in warlock land
dense cedar
can warlocks even sim yet
fleet anchor
I dunno, nobody seems to like the APL but it never seems to get updated so who knows
It's a little odd
static glacier
they're in salt mine land demo and destro haven't had buffs announced yet
loud niche
how much do we trust the sims for dps increases from herodamage and/or bloodmallet with sin for consumes?
dense cedar
u can just test them on ur own character
fleet anchor
Well those sim guys are a little shady, but it should be close enough
It matters far more that you use consumables than what they are 😛
balmy condor
wait
I have a pastebin for this
thank me later
or now, my ego enjoys it either way
loud niche
ty papi
balmy condor
dense cedar
@balmy condor
loud niche
is there a macro for mut/ambush, or does the game autoswap it for you like it did in ToT?
balmy condor
is there a macro for mut/ambush, or does the game autoswap it for you like it di...
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
loud niche
wtf that's awful
static glacier
just have a bind for ambush, sin doesn't exactly have a button overload
balmy condor
yeah that's what I recommend too
static glacier
last thing before I vanish, have blizzard said anything about the damage profile of the rogue specs? the whole white swings / passive largely uncontrollable damage sources being a large portion of damage?
balmy condor
they have not
that'll probably change as the expansion goes on
naturally by way of gear
static glacier
take care
balmy condor
see ya
dense cedar
dense cedar
idk
if this is about shiv
im not happy about it
but if something else happened
pls let me know
balmy condor
nah its shiv meming
dense cedar
like sin is alreayd worse dmg
why would u purposefully gut their utility
so bizzare
fleet anchor
Because the people who made the change probably don't play Rogue
scenic fox
I'm 100% sure 0 devs play rogue
short wasp
Can I use assassination in 2s now or still nah?
fleet anchor
We miss Sephuz dearly every day lol
strange python
Imo make the ambush proc talent baseline to spice up the rotation
dense cedar
imagine needing to press ur interrupt to do dmg
balmy condor
laughs in dh
fleet anchor
lol I'm talking about the actual dev.. He was really good with Rogues. 😦
Rogue development hasn't been the same since he left for HS
dense cedar
i assumed the DH resource gain was tied to interrupting something with it
not just pressing it
strange python
Have to interrupt
scenic fox
When was that?
fleet anchor
Sephuz left WoW team after the start of BfA
strange python
Not just on use mongoloid resource gen
faint harness
He was still around in legion right, remember his name from a reddit thread
dense cedar
THen DH interrupt still better than Sin SHiv lol
fleet anchor
He did the initial design of the Azerite traits and stuff
faint harness
Uh oh
fleet anchor
For most specs
balmy condor
Uh oh
scenic fox
I just want pre legion rogue
fleet anchor
But he wasn't involved in the hotfixes afaik
scenic fox
Or legion idk
faint harness
How can the devs be allowed to be this shit at their job, genuine question, is anyone except the wildly op classes ok with status quo
fleet anchor
And yeah he did all the Legion stuff
fleet anchor
Sephuz was legit awesome, he actually completed Mage tower on retail with every spec in the game lol
balmy condor
in torg when I have ns + subt
scenic fox
But I hate how we lost gouge garrote and dismantle
strange python
Hot take. Give me back cut to the chase and hunger for blood.
fleet anchor
Fuck if I know Whispyr haha
faint harness
Can we make a petition to move back sephuz to the wow team
fleet anchor
I wish lol
scenic fox
I also finished MT on all speccs in the game cause of MoP cm set trauma missing 4 classes :(
balmy condor
you finished what
scenic fox
Mage tower
faint harness
Geez whispyr
balmy condor
that's the third time I've seen MT today
and its meant different things
every single time
fleet anchor
MT+
faint harness
Mythic trails
dense cedar
MagneTic
balmy condor
Mythic trails
those like them there chem trails the govn keeps flyin over my gosh darn barn dagnabit
dense cedar
does it really count as unpruning if u prune a button at the same time?
faint harness
Yea its like that but ingame ofc
scenic fox
Did rogue get anything unpruned? Besides fucking snd
dense cedar
Shiv
scenic fox
We had that
scenic fox
Feels like war got all utility back
fleet anchor
Rogue really never got pruned to begin with
scenic fox
What
fleet anchor
Other than the poison removal in Legion
fleet anchor
I mean they moved stuff around between the specs but not like they straight deleted much like many other classes
scenic fox
And combat readiness
balmy condor
smoke bomb lives on in our heart
scenic fox
Ye and that
fleet anchor
Rogues had like 2x as many buttons as any other class in Legion lol
Like when people are talking about "pruning" largely a lot of specs ended up with like half their bars empty in WoD and Legion 😛
fleet anchor
Rogues got redesigned more than they got "pruned"
fleet anchor
Hemo is in the dumpster where it always belonged lol
scenic fox
But that was legion only
dense cedar
the icon is nice looking tho @fleet anchor
fleet anchor
The legend of the Classic "hemo Rogue" lives on to this day 🤣
scenic fox
Now we're stuck with this shit iteration of outlaw and assa
And still have no utility
dense cedar
Outlaw in SL is the first time i've ver liked it lol
little moth
^^
scenic fox
It was so muxh better end of leg
fleet anchor
Hard disagree lol
static glacier
Depends if you liked rerolling or not
dense cedar
Nothing was more draining than rerolling
faint harness
Outlaw is better than bfa atm but still boring to me.
dense cedar
like rerolling was a truly depressing mechanic
static glacier
what's the least boring spec / playstyle you've tried?
faint harness
Least boring? Holy paladin in wod
static glacier
let's narrow it down to current things
loud niche
so, how much dps are we expecting to get after the 8% buff? i'm able to sustain 3.5k using a wrong leggo now, what should i be at?
little moth
WoD sub pepehands
scenic fox
WW Monk Antorus
balmy condor
so, how much dps are we expecting to get after the 8% buff? i'm able to sustain ...
8% more than that
faint harness
Havoc dh in EN was a lot of fun
dense cedar
WW is just a fun spec
loud niche
fair
dense cedar
tho it has problems i don't like
faint harness
Bloodlet + momentum havoc, thats fun
scenic fox
WoD Sub was only fun with super low and super high multistrike
dense cedar
Ladino
faint harness
Lol
fleet anchor
8% more than that
I mean, technically probably a little less tbh. Have to subtract out trinkets and oils and shit. 😄
static glacier
do autoattacks count as abilities?
faint harness
No
static glacier
significantly less than 8% then
faint harness
It is
loud niche
wait... if the number 1 sin rogue rn is expecting to have ~4k dps, that's still a whole 1k dps less than sub at the same ilvl
faint harness
4k?
faint harness
Thats extremely low
fleet anchor
Never really understood why the class passives didn't have Modify Auto Attack Damage Done%
static glacier
loud niche
Peen's 100 parse on mythic shriekwing is like 3.7k or some shit
static glacier
like who's stronger
mental igloo
How much slower of a play style is Sin than OL?
dense cedar
at least affliction is fun
faint harness
Shriekwing is a fight with a lot of downtime
faint harness
How much slower of a play style is Sin than OL?
A lot
fleet anchor
Realistically once you take out AA damage and procs/trinkets
It's probably closer to 5.5-6%
faint harness
Sin is a spec for ppl like me, that have reached their 30s
mental igloo
I'm 33
fleet anchor
If you're just multiplying your parse number
faint harness
You can be happy and play sin then, just press a button every 4 seconds
static glacier
is it difficult to balance specs?
or is blizzard intentionally making some specs weak
faint harness
Would say yes despite having 0 experience
dense cedar
balance is hard
toxic verge
,
faint harness
I think there are obvious easy fixes that they hold onto for whatever reason
dense cedar
but blizz also messes up
fleet anchor
Balance is hard but it's not this hard 😛
loud niche
okay, but so then we would need like 11% or more buff to get sub's parses at an equal ilvl
not 8
fleet anchor
Balance right now is just.. really bad
balmy condor
well yes
static glacier
like if the top sin rogue won't even compete with an average sub rogue post buffs
faint harness
They care too much about not making ppl sad
balmy condor
no one said we're beating sub now
faint harness
They usually buff small
loud niche
no, but competitive would imply that if i 100 parse as sin im not green parsing a sub
fleet anchor
Hey well
faint harness
To not having to correct it later on cus it makes something op
fleet anchor
You guys should feel at least optimistic that Assassination isn't getting the BfA Sub treatment
faint harness
True
fleet anchor
And get ignored for a year
loud niche
no
queen galleon
well there's go sin
static glacier
not if you're playing for performance
balmy condor
?
loud niche
lol
faint harness
I am mad at blizz atm, i want to like write them a karen letter
balmy condor
it makes it viable
strange wren
what about on huntsman tho?
balmy condor
we are viable after the 8%
loud niche
im confused how
queen galleon
asked for rogue sry
balmy condor
but you're not trolling by playing it
olive egret
Haven't even touched assass this expac, does it even "feel" good to play, despite the low numbers?
balmy condor
what "feels" good to you
fleet anchor
I mean, to put it in context
olive egret
Eh, yeah, idk. I liked assass in Uldir bfa. Quit after that
loud niche
if peen's 100 parses are anything to go by, then we can assume that all the high end parsing sin rogues will still be doing low blue- green parses when compared to sub's parses :\
faint harness
Peen is probably not the best sin rogue in the game
balmy condor
peen is also making mistakes
faint harness
Those are not playing sin atm
fleet anchor
Probably puts Assassination on par with like Demo/Destro Warlock/SV Hunter/Frost DK gang or something
faint harness
Its the same issue sub had in bfa
static glacier
btw, speaking of viability etc
faint harness
It was bad but looked way worse cus all the good players were on sin
loud niche
i love sin, and i hope it gets here, but i doubt my raid team is gonna be okay with me just dropping like 1k dps outta the blue 😦
static glacier
how long has it been where we've not had rogue in top 6 specs for multiple patches in a row?
little moth
A while
balmy condor
like peen is already dropping a full 1% just with how he opens
faint harness
Outlaw has been there but still not truly recognized as a spec 
olive egret
utlaw
faint harness
The cleave outlaw does is usually imo, devalued in prog
fleet anchor
I'm enjoying it
loud niche
i cannot stand larping as a bucaneer
faint harness
But now they actually do st on top of cleave, so hooray i guess
faint harness
Its good for slg
fleet anchor
Yaaaay I get to be in on prog on the consensus worst designed raid boss in the last 10 years 🤣
loud niche
i mean, otl is starting to over take sub as good players start moving to it for raid, and it's just better in m+ so
what boss?
faint harness
But then again you can also play sub on slg and funnel the big birds in the intermissione
fleet anchor
SLG
faint harness
Depends what you need
fleet anchor
it's a dumpster-tier fight
loud niche
lol
fleet anchor
design wise
faint harness
I mean isnt it cus it was reworked like 5-6 times
And it has a very weird spell queue which is rng
fleet anchor
Neither SLG or Sun King really felt like they had a strong direction in beta. Just constant bugs and reworks
faint harness
Same with council imo
loud niche
sub = heavy burst, ST or 7-8 aoe. sin SHOULD BE strong sustained dps ST, okay aoe/cleave. otl SHOULD BE strong sustained 2-5targets, okay ST... Blizz please
faint harness
Heavy burst, idk
fleet whale
I really like sire as a fight, but maybe that's cause he reminds me a lot of blackhand
fleet anchor
I mean I'd be fine if all were just in the same general ballpark
And people pick what they want
😛
faint harness
Sire is fine, prob undertuned on mythic tho
fleet anchor
Sire definitely has a Blackhand feel lol
fleet whale
it's the first raid tier, blizz prolly didn't want to make a ball buster
faint harness
Well they did with slg
fleet whale
blackhand is my favorite raid boss of all time
faint harness
Just the wrong boss
faint harness
I dont see the point to the dance mechanic
fleet whale
yeah the dance thing is silly
static glacier
it's a flavour thing
fleet anchor
Council is ok but the dance stuff was redesigned so many times and just feels like a time waster
fleet whale
but there is some sort of charm about council
fleet anchor
I don't mind the fight
fleet whale
the voice actors kind of carry it lol
static glacier
the real question is
fleet anchor
Although I think the whole design of "kill 3, order determines abilities" is kinda played out
Never really seems to lead to much variety
static glacier
is there a big reason to bring sub over feral
faint harness
Yep
fleet whale
it's played out since people just find a meta order
static glacier
cloak im guessing
static glacier
oh lul
fleet whale
feral can pump though
fleet anchor
Feral is pretty big pump yeah
faint harness
An owlweaving feral can outdps any rogue spec
fleet whale
an owlweaving feral can outdps most classes
fleet anchor
It's basically Assassination Rogue but with DPS atm 😄
static glacier
I'm pretty sure non owl weave feral beats rogue anyway
fleet whale
and regular feral is strong too
magic vine
if you make more of the abilities able to be handled by utility abilities, then your order can be different based on raid comp. in reality it tends to be 1 most annoying ability that you play around having on all of them
tribal marlin
yes
fleet whale
in theory yes
tribal marlin
magic vine
i still like calling it boomboxing better
fleet anchor
Feral is really good yeah and the fact that you see so few of them just reflects how ranged-biased the raid meta is right now. It's not good enough just to be good. 😛
tribal marlin
that's simdps sure but it's pumping
magic vine
since when you're talking that comes off the tounge easier
fleet anchor
If you want a raid slot as melee nowadays you have to buff the ranged or have crazy utility that is required for some mechanic
faint harness
I dont find any particular reason to not pick feral over rogue even tho its melee, currently.
tribal marlin
Also Feral isn't really affected by downtime/movement like Balance, Shadow, Subt and Outlaw are
static glacier
ngl, I remember being asked when invited to groups what spec are you (main druid)
and I don't want to know what the answer would have been if i'd said feral
static glacier
heck, end of legion I'd applied to a guild as resto, could only take me as balance, didn't have balance leggo
tribal marlin
Tho 8% to assa is going to make the spec coming back
fleet anchor
Just like you don't tell people you are an Assassination Rogue until the key is already put in 😄
static glacier
and feral was my main dps spec, just played feral and they made jokes about ranged cat. did fine damage (top4 dps) and was allowed to stay feral.
faint harness
Playing assassination in m+ is hard griefing atm
static glacier
is there a real fix to the ranged bias ingame atm?
faint harness
Has there ever been?
tribal marlin
Assa is one spec that you can look at Simcraft, and say ok this is the DPS you can expect from an Assa Rogue. And if that simdps is good enough, it can output most of the crazy simdps we see in the chart.
static glacier
for the most part melee got hit harder by the target caps than ranged
faint harness
Its not a new thing
little basalt
What is owlweaving?