i have a 171
#assassination
karmic flame
weapons never drop for me lol. Also, isn't that his single target talents, and not mythic + talents?
timber oak
any covenant thats best for sin ? or I can pick whatever I want ?
planning on doing a bit of everything, raids/m+/arena but with a more casual approach
strange python
i like night fae
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
spice spire
any covenant thats best for sin ? or I can pick whatever I want ?
Doesn’t matter too much, all within 3%, play with what you like
halcyon grail
If you're already playing sin, I wouldn't worry about the handicap of a covenant.
main forge
Any covenant works from the theory side of it. Honestly I went for the story. I'd choose it for the abilities you liked to play with too.
gleaming eagle
i like night fae
the most with sin
dots stacking
can get up to 5 4 dots on them
rupture garrote sepsis poison
frail fossil
If you're already playing sin, I wouldn't worry about the handicap of a covenant...
big truth there
stone epoch
I like necro just for the emeni soulbind giving a little on demand buff
stoic needle
must be nice to be able to pop it before a shiv window
god dammit blizzard give us bleed synergy with bone spikes 
quiet junco
B4 i ask the sub guys, is Akari pointless in m+
And should I just do master assassin if I switch specs.
quiet junco
Ty
strange python
Hello guys, I was really interested to hear about your opinions on assa covenants for a player who does both pve and pvp. Im currently venthir and it feels really bad and was looking to switch any ideas? ^^
sinful island
i like Kyrian
stuck tartan
kyrian for pvp, even tho they nerfed it
night fae i think its good option too, both pve and pvp
stoic needle
I like the haste from venthyr
stuck tartan
but they arent too apart from each other
yeah, I liked it too, but tbh, covenants arent that diff between them on rogue
fleet whale
I wish flag didn't cost any energy to cast initially
gleaming eagle
venthyr has terrible utility skill for pvp tbh
stoic needle
venthyr has terrible utility skill for pvp tbh
Door of shadows with the disorient is pretty legit
gleaming eagle
the only thing i like the
root removal
with door
the problem that i have is that you need to channel
so against melee
or 1v1
you wont be using it much
compared to kyrian heal
or night fael blink
gleaming eagle
yea the cast time
so if you want to do pvp i reccom night fae or kyrian
kyrian helps a lot cause it cures dots from you
so you can stealth
and night fae to kite pallies
fleet whale
and night fae is really nice in bgs
tacit night
I haven't done pvp seriously since stunlock was a thing. What's the overall Sin pvp gameplan? Cheap shot, bleeds, kidney shot, envenom?
tacit night
Yeah, and go in with snd up if you can?
gleaming eagle
you can somewhat kite your enemies
apply dots
and then vanish
etc
if they are dps classes with no heals
tacit night
Makes sense
somber thistle
Has anyone been having issues with shadowstep lately? It just stops working randomly.
balmy condor
nop
somber thistle
I thought maybe there was a glitch with the conduit so i swapped it but it is still doing it
daring pecan
Doing what?
fleet sedge
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
calm dome
Hi Assasins brothers ,
Just done 3/10 Heroic in the raid tonight, went as Assasin , as usual
Log right here
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dmfWKngDbaJ762Av/#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=summary
spice spire
Nice job!
frail birch
thorn plover
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
dim yacht
on council of blood, is it worth dropping bleeds on off targets for the extra energy? i thought it would be, but my damage was just awful, even for sin it felt
main forge
Probably worth it if they are within cleave range, otherwise if you have to walk to them... probably not
dim yacht
thats what i thought too
maybe i should just drop a garrote on them and not a rupture, dunno
fight just seems like it sucks for melee in general
main forge
Not for Sin rogues... but I can see Outlaw really shining on that if you have DK's gripping in....
I tend to hit the non main target boss with rupture just for the energy, not sure if it helps or not... being playing sub more often now
stoic needle
Outlaw pumps on sun king
It's cleave city
But I would say yeah if you hit a FoK and get 4 or 5cp dropping a rupture on a secondary target can't hurt
I feel like you need every bit of energy you can get to keep up in aoe
main forge
Heck you need it for ST too
calm dome
on council of blood, is it worth dropping bleeds on off targets for the extra en...
you can keep putting garrot and rupt on 2of the 3 bosses
usually the tank keep them together for cleave
dont botther if the 3rd one ( usually tanked a bit away from the group ) you will loose too much dps runing to him and come back
calm dome
maybe i should just drop a garrote on them and not a rupture, dunno
garrot N rupt on both of them, thats your rotation
shadowstep on the servant and then back to the bosses
mortal scaffold
its BS that MA doesnt apply the crit buff for the entire duration for your dots t b q h w u
balmy condor
nah, snapshotting is jank
mortal scaffold
i thought they got rid of snapshotting smh
balmy condor
they did for everything except the additional damage on nightstalker, subterfuge, and haste for exsang
what you're describing is a crit snapshot for MA
which is jank
and I'm glad it doesn't
balmy condor
would be trash
main forge
Also cleave on Council doesn't work as the bosses heal between phases IIRC.
balmy condor
yes, for your entire garrote/rupture/ib/poison to crit
that shouldn't snapshot
and I'm glad it doesn't
mortal scaffold
i'm not understanding
balmy condor
mortal scaffold
its ok dont worry about it
balmy condor
you said its bullshit that it doesn't snapshot
and I'm telling you that its a bad idea
mortal scaffold
wait why wouldnt i want it to crit across its whole duration?
main forge
That's janky. And makes no sense. Would mean any time you crit with garrote or rupture it would crit for the whole duration
balmy condor
because that fucks with gameplay in multidotting and vanish, and also it would mean its not 4 seconds
mortal scaffold
but big nunber
main forge
That's why we got SnD back for big numbers
stoic needle
Also cleave on Council doesn't work as the bosses heal between phases IIRC.
It doesn't work for cleave, but the extra energy makes us do more ST dps
calm dome
Also cleave on Council doesn't work as the bosses heal between phases IIRC.
True , bosses regen life
But applying dots will get you more energy regen
main forge
Yes. agreed there. We benefit from the cleave due to energy regen not from the damage done
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
primal zinc
do we have 2 different sims for spectral agility pot with oils and another one with phantom fire and oils?
i wanna see the difference tbh
balmy condor
you can sim it yourself, there's a setting for it at the bottom of top gear, or if you want to compare directly in one sim, you could add this to the bottom of your import in an advanced sim:
copy="stone/oil"
temporary_enchant="main_hand:shaded_sharpening_stone/off_hand:shadowcore_oil"
copy="stone/stone"
temporary_enchant="main_hand:shaded_sharpening_stone/off_hand:shaded_sharpening_stone"
copy="oil/oil"
temporary_enchant="main_hand:shadowcore_oil/off_hand:shadowcore_oil"
I'll tell you right now though, as long as you don't double oil, you're fine
shadow tulip
balmy condor
for most sims, I think stone/stone and stone/oil are within like 0.2% of each other, and then oil/oil is about 0.4% down
compared to those two
so double oil might lose you like 20 dps
another way to look at it
stone/stone and stone/oil are about 2.2% for most people
and oil/oil is only 1.8%
difference of +120 dps to +100 dps
tldr, use consumables, doesn't really matter what, if you're bulk buying, just buy a shit ton of stones so you don't have to rely on potion shenanigans and it'll be all passive, easy peasy
sterile jackal
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
vestal wren
i would argue that the most important thing is to use oils or stones
not using them is quite a dps loss while the difference between variations is rather minor
also they are cheap asf so no reason to not use
balmy condor
yup
primal zinc
who makes stones?
primal zinc
and you can have both shadow and stone?
balmy condor
You can have one consumable on each dagger
balmy condor
Doesn’t matter
balmy condor
I have a pastebin for that around here somewhere as well hold on
Put that under your import in an advanced sim, and it’ll compare potions and food
If you want to check fire pot with oil/oil vs agi pot with stone/stone
You’re gonna have to combine the logic from the above, and the pastebin
And do like
Copy=agi stone
Potion=whatever_name_of_potion
Temporary_enchant=mainhand:Whatver/offhand:whatever
And then repeat for whatever combination you want
long steeple
According to the pinned post the best legendary for Sin right now is dashing scoundrel, but having run my own sims zoldyck seems to be out performing it by quite some margin
Single Target (patchwerk)
Aoe (hectic add cleave)
am I missing something? This seems to be at odds with the pinned sims
I know sin meme, but I'd rather not drop 100k+ on a legendary that is worse than an alternative
vestal wren
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
vestal wren
possible gear diffrences
finality and akaari also sims fairly close for some (within .1 to .3 dps) on subtlety while akaari is more significant ahead for others. Gear impacts the strengh of individual powers
long steeple
Makes sense, guess I should go with Zoldyck then
vestal wren
zoldy is never a bad option, so its just positive if it is ahead on pure st for you
sick scarab
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
fleet whale
only situation where zoldy is bad are bosses that end before 30%
other than that, it's really versatile for all types of pve content
stuck tartan
still the same
vestal wren
havent watched latest patches
untertuned atm
balmy condor
@long steeple Just to support what fuu said, legendaries are actually surprisingly close, and some combinations have side grades and even big gains. Dashing, doomblade, and zoldyck are all really good single target, but dashing and doomblade are both trash in aoe, which your sims reflect
I had to pick one legendary in the bis list for consistency and readability, and dashing just ended up being the highest sim most of the time
toxic tusk
Side note! I'm a casual raider sitting at 189. Slowly but surely been trying to collect mythic gear with my haste and crit and I've found my numbers in raids and against mythic bosses are starting to jump significantly.
So there's the answer. Don't play with high end players.
balmy condor
Yeah, outdpsing bad players is mostly being good, and not the spec
toxic tusk
I don't think I'm like great by any standards, but I'd like to think I'm a decent player.
I didn't parse too badly in Castle whatever it's called. Hovered around the 49-54 percentages.
But holy shit, I'm not doing much in non melee bossfights.
main forge
No worries guys... I think I am about to craft Master Assassin @ 235 which means a buff to Sin
!legos
timber oak
feelsbad I really do enjoy the playstyle + spec fantasy in itself but just tried outlaw and I am doing a lot more dmg
main forge
Yeah I am playing sub right now... love the short burst... and really didn't think i could pick it up... and definitely not doing great.... hitting 20 green parses on normal 😦 whereas sin I pulled like 80-90 the first week or two
stuck tartan
Im checking outlaw myself
main forge
I loved combat, but I might just go outlaw since it does so well
stuck tartan
I loved combat, but hated outlaw on Legion and Bfa
main forge
exactly
stuck tartan
but sub for me its getting boring pretty fast, specially on m+
main forge
I loved the idea of outlaw... wish it had more ranged options as I know that is an issue I always ran into... and hunters got a melee spec so....
stuck tartan
fury
timber oak
I sure as hell want to pick up assassination when they get at least tuned to be in a good spot, no need to be broken or strong just viable
stuck tartan
I think, idk how many people play it
stuck tartan
I sure as hell want to pick up assassination when they get at least tuned to be ...
Same
I'm not hard trying so I think I'll switch between the three for sometimes
timber oak
I'm farming all my sin legendaries just in case for the future haha
stuck tartan
And here I am with 1 190 of each spec lol
But the moment sin is better, I'll stay with it
timber oak
Okay... I made Master Assassin... Incoming Buffs to Sin by Tuesday.
fingers crossed!
stuck tartan
god I wish, we'll have to wait for 9.1 for sure 
fleet whale
they aren't buffing anything again, not until 9.1
blizz was very conservative on tuning for this tier
timber oak
I honestly don't care if anything else gets nerfed I just want to play sin and do decent dmg without having to be top shape :-p
just buff poisons + bleeds for like 10% and it should be enough to be decent ?
stuck tartan
kinda, maybe more
main forge
I was thinking about it... after playing sub and outlaw and getting combo points out the wazoo....
stuck tartan
a 5% did kinda nothing that's for sure
main forge
we need something that refunds combo points or gives us more throughout the fight
stuck tartan
or more ways to get energy
timber oak
that too, I do notice how many more combo points I generate doing nothing compared to sin which is none
main forge
yeah or that... but energy will come later @ higher haste levels
but combo points will be the same
stuck tartan
when I go to Torghast the moment I get haste It feels great
main forge
like if SnD refunded one or 2 combo points....
stuck tartan
snd should be refreshed on envenom
main forge
or if casting rupture on a target with 3+ combo points
Truth on that... I miss the refresh SnD with Envenom
like they brought back SnD but forgot how it worked what was it wrath/cata/mists?
when did they add it and when did they take that out?
main forge
And the smokebomb damage reduction too around then I'm guessing?
stuck tartan
I played sub on wod cause fuck that last tier
main forge
the only raid cooldown we had lol
main forge
I mean it was janky to use too but typically worked well in the melee pile
AMS and priest bubble were so easy to see... Smokebomb... not so much
timber oak
I don't think that it is that hard to balance assassination to be on par with the other 2 specs
prisma yoke
Legion gave it to the DH in form of Darkness
main forge
they took shroud from our pvp abilities lol
in arena at least but pallies still get bubble
stuck tartan
someone one newbie chat today asked what is the difference between rogues and dhs
and cause of that I dont know anymore lmao
main forge
honestly when I came back in march... and saw what DHs were doing... i was like... thats just a better rogue, this is bullshit
prisma yoke
rogues have stealth and DH have more edge 
stuck tartan
rogues have edgier knifes and stealth, dhs have edgelords and anti-stealth
makes sense
man, we were going to get the monk think in bfa, if only we had that atleast lol
the physical debuff I mean
main forge
something? like any bone? blizz throw it blizz
toxic tusk
I'd be okay with envenom refreshing SnD again.
sinful island
is there anyone who keep playing sin all time during shadowlands?
balmy condor
most high end players swapped due to viability and competitiveness
I don't think there's any well known rogue playing sin full time atm
strange python
sin weak
real bay
real bay
might try it for lulz
not a big fan of outlaw spammy gameplay
too much shit to keep track of for slowpoke brains
agile sentinel
My fingers are crossed for a tuning pass this coming week, since world first race and Xmas are over.
balmy condor
not happening most likely
sinful island
why would they
stoic needle
Late Christmas gift
strange python
Make Sin Great Again
fringe wing
I love how people discuss min maxing of a dead spec ;p
balmy condor
people want to play wants fun to them, and still be good at that
fringe wing
tahts fair
hallow jay
some people like the challenge of taking something considered bad and making it work. Like a magikarp solo run
fringe wing
playing assa in shadowlands is the ultimate nuzzlocke 
hallow jay
I mean hey, there's a grand total of 21 sin logs for mythic nathria right now. Somebody's making it work
or getting carried
young blaze
Is assa completely dead?
balmy condor
If you're trying to be optimal, yes
young blaze
in pvp too? sub is just better option right?
balmy condor
in everything
fringe wing
https://i.gyazo.com/thumb/1200/a6b22b3589e05973b1102eaa5d4d32d9-png.jpg let this be the answer my man
prisma yoke
i reckon the earliest that sin will get adjusted is the next raid tier... 
fringe wing
yes cant wait for another 5% flat buff 😛
balmy condor
I actually can't figure out what weird parse % this dude using
balmy condor
yes cant wait for another 5% flat buff 😛
5% flat would bring us in line with most average specs
would be really good
fringe wing
https://i.gyazo.com/thumb/1200/a6b22b3589e05973b1102eaa5d4d32d9-png.jpg let this...
this is after 5% flat buff
so i beg to differ 🙂
ionic hemlock
can we farm a second legendary if its the same one? wondering if you make a mistake on stats or something, could you refarm the memory?
fringe wing
I think you can change stats during upgrading
ionic hemlock
If that's the case that would be epic I crafted my law ring but now im kinda having buyers remorse on stats lol
fringe wing
Im not sure though I didn't try
ionic hemlock
I'll try it lol in for a penny, in for a pount
balmy condor
what did you put on it
ionic hemlock
I did haste/versa I shoulda probably went crit
they sim kinda close when I checked I am pretty sure
ionic hemlock
lol
balmy condor
I was expecting like mast/crit
ionic hemlock
I don't know if I can trust you 
plain thistle
dont trust the green man
sinful island
raidbot sims crit as a higher weighted stat than vers, don't it?
plain thistle
balmy condor
stat weights literally change all the time
ionic hemlock
I was at 22%crit 13% haste 14% mast 11%vers (puglyfe)
balmy condor
sounds good
ionic hemlock
I dunno, I'd ask in law channel but they are busy trolling each other
balmy condor
it adds like 150 stat or something to your character
and determines how much it changed
it's generally only a rough estimate
and it literally shifts all the time
ionic hemlock
I am seeing a lot of outlaw rogues with shoulders now and Im like wtf 😠
balmy condor
like for sin, you'll see mast > crit if you don't have a lot of mast
ionic hemlock
true
balmy condor
the difference here is actually whatever
like even with those stat weights, if you change 80 vers to 80 crit
you'd get maybe a 22 dps gain
and then you'll get more crit, and vers will be better
and then you'll be like "man fuck I wish I had vers on that legendary"
ionic hemlock
lol true
im just really playing outlaw until assassin sorts itself out. hopefully soon
I was off on that sim lol
balmy condor
yeh you're also still 188 ilvl
get another 5 ilvl, and none of those numbers will be relevant
stat weights are very rarely useful
and pawn is just completely useless
ionic hemlock
fair
I guess it's easy to second guess right now because on my server a ring costs like 9k low end and up to 70k lol
So I am getting that oh shit, what did I do.
main forge
there is Varolyn-Sargeras US who still plays Assassination
Could you stop? I'd like to go back to Sin and take the top spot for Sin for a week...
I'm on sargeras too :p
quaint basalt
hey ima noob, what slot do i put my lege in? im assassination pvp
balmy condor
ring
quaint basalt
👌 cheers
sinful island
what kind of macro code would make mutilate and blindslide work on one button?
balmy condor
!bs
prisma monolithBOT
Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message
stoic needle
what if this was baseline
maybe without the agi boost? dunno if that would be too op or not
but it would be cool to have vanish have different effects as a dps cooldown for each spec
stoic needle
outlaw gets CTO, sub gets more find weakness, we get more dps
balmy condor
we love that
stoic needle
lol is that sarcasm
balmy condor
yes
stoic needle
do you not like using vanish as a dps cd?
balmy condor
sin's vanish dependency has plagued it for years
stoic needle
oh
balmy condor
in comparison to other specs
stoic needle
ah i didn't know that
balmy condor
its a little less apparent in shadowlands
but in bfa, you had quite a few vanish skips
which would be fine for outlaw
but it hurt sin damage
plain onyx
what if this was baseline
Yo, which UI are you using there?
main forge
Sub also gets Shady Techniques or whatever that gives combo points and energy. and Roll the bones is on a short cooldown and can broke really good buffs.
Sin has Vendetta and nothing else.
I think something else giving us combo points and energy would be a good help.
Yeah I don't like vanish as a DPS cooldown
daring pecan
Sin rework when 
main forge
it should be an escape or a setup for say an opener (garrote or ambush during damage phase)
10.0.2
daring pecan
in our dreams
low girder
we have those, they're called seal fate and SND rank 2
it's not a resources thing, it's a numbers thing
at least in a raid environment
dim yacht
m+ isnt much better
low girder
M+ is worse, was my point
dim yacht
its def more than a numbers thing there
CT baseline, make CT bleed ticks give energy
thatd help a lot. or just give us EB or SS back lol
low girder
CT proccing venemous would be a bad idea
dim yacht
why?
dim yacht
if it was big aoe, you wouldnt need ruptures at all would you?
youd just CT instead, skip the build up
ignoring the numbers part, i feel like were a bit slow to build up on aoe
3 x garrote, then need a rupture as well before we have the energy
and then need to keep refreshing the ruptures as the initial garrotes run out if youre not running enough haste
low girder
i don't think the setup is a bad thing, it's only really an issue in really low keys
dim yacht
fair
i feel like SS kind of mitigated that alot
because during the set up we still have some oomph to our opening dps
low girder
the base idea works for the most part, there's just not really any borrowed power supporting it
for aoe
LP is uh
meh
to say the least
dim yacht
no kidding
oh boy, 15% more poison damage
15% of 0 is 0
kinda bummed it only affects the instant damage
though if it affected dot too, i suppose itd just be...bis for everything
i feel like maybe buffing the fan of knives conduit would do more
like what if fan of knives had increased damage based on amount of targets
though i guess even thats just EB reworded
fuck i miss EB
stoic needle
Yo, which UI are you using there?
Elvui - the redtukzui variant. the font is gilroy bold
I got my sin to sim within 450 dps of my outlaw, somehow. That might be good enough for me 
main forge
I am just happy that Sin Rogues are #1 at one thing.... and that is least played spec/class for Heroic and Mythic Raid.
real bay
probably easier to get your sim dps as sin than as outlaw, i mean the rng isnt that big but its there
deft oracle
guys what stats should i prioritize for mythic+ ? every guide i check tells something different, atm im crit>haste
main forge
probably haste-> versa == crit > mastery
but straight up sim yourself
every piece of gear is going to change your DPS and stat weights, they are usually really close
this early on ilvl is going to matter more than stats and with so little gear dropping it will take a while to cap out on gear where that may be an issue.
deft oracle
yeah
main forge
but if you have two equal ilevel pieces in the same slot.. gotta sim that.
deft oracle
alright, thanks
it's still demoralizing that other dps with lower ilvl deals twice as much as dmg as me
main forge
crit->haste in the previous patch of 8.3 due to us hitting the "soft cap" of haste early on and typically not having energy issues.
deft oracle
im not great, but my uptimes are somewhat decent
main forge
Look I was Sin rogue first couple weeks of the expac... and was the 4th ranked Sin rogue in M+ on my server, I am playing sub right now... probably should play outlaw... both will output more damage than Sin right now doing 80% even if you are putting out 100% on sin.
deft oracle
😆
main forge
I have played since BC and always wanted to play Sin, and played it exclusively since it was viable in Wrath.... The only time we have been worse is in BC.
deft oracle
sin is the only spec i rly like, dont feel like playing others
main forge
I agree, just trying to spit the truth at you. You aren't going to be able to pump and not going to provide the utility the other specs do.
Like straight up, your secondaries aren't going to matter as that is not where you are really losing DPS. Sin is bottom of the barrel for multiple reasons. and its good to min-max it but the DPS increase is still the top of the bottom of the barrel. We all hope it gets another buff soon but doesn't look like it.
Your rotation could be perfect, but just plan to be 3 or 4 on DPS. And try to be as useful as possible... Perfect kicks and stuns on trash and adds is going to be your bread and butter for M+
knowing when you can immune stuff with cloak and sit in the damage
being able to sap and blind for pulls and the like
knowing when and how to shroud
main forge
I hope it helps... knowing when to vanish to avoid getting a cast of something on you or anything like. so many other ways to improve as sin
rain ruin
how is assa in pvp compare to outlaw?
main forge
they are played probably about the same. although I feel like I have seen more outlaw rogues lately in pvp over Sin rogues.
but Sub is the dominant one right now.
and for good reason. it just melts things.
Why am I Simping for Sub so hard... Please Make Assassination Great Again.
viscid locust
how is Sin overall?
im main outlaw but considering playing sin as offspec
i cant handle sub gameplay
rain ruin
idk why but when i play outlaw it just feel i dont do anything so i want to swap to sin for PvP
main forge
Sin is fairly easy to pick up, and has an easy rotation and minor nuance.
main forge
Nah, it's fairly mindless and has what i like to think of as a constant sustained flow
likes its a constant beating heart
oh yeah the damage is garbage right now
seriously more survival hunters are raiding and playing it I swear.
then it that is
viscid locust
i like Sin because if you are in a phase that you cant reach the boss bc of some mechanic you can still dps if its full doted
thats why i wanted Sin as offspec
but seen damage graphs is like
i better play pew pew outlaw
main forge
Meh, it does some damage, but it isn't amazing for that, most of those phases these days the boss are immune
shriekwing comes to mind.
council. etc. even in BFA at its height, it didn't fair amazing in those fights that had that... like wrathion or n'zoth. but it pumps with vendetta if the fight fits on that cooldown.
It is also my favorite for progression as the flow allows you watch much of the fight without worrying about which buttons you are smashing
viscid locust
The problem of rogues rn
is that we dont provide anything
but "dmg" and its still garbage
so im afraid if i play Sin i get benched bc damage
main forge
It is the most forgiving of the rogue specs for damage and button smashing
viscid locust
currently as outlaw im top 5 most of the time
main forge
I run in a 30 man right now... I know Sin in and out... the flow the depth... and had the gear equivalent to my raid
On some fights I was above the tank and our ... dps that ... lets just say I was mad that I was beating them.
just doing normal right now
raven egret
the problem with all melees now is the fact that unholy dks exist
main forge
I have said it again and again that we bring nothing to raids anymore
Even in Bfa 8.3 we didn't bring anything another class could not bring better... why bring a rogue when there was BM and fire
raven egret
yea i mean there is no tactical reason to bring a rogue
you need melee? unholy does more damage AND a raid cd
you need range? mm hunter and boomking
main forge
do they bring a rebirth too?
viscid locust
Even that
we had cloak to cheese mechanics
and they are making mechanics not cheeseable
main forge
... and other classes do that too now
raven egret
cloak? i bring you ams
main forge
turtle... ams
viscid locust
ye hunters
raven egret
feint? doesnt work lol
viscid locust
i spent like 3 days thinking
main forge
you have to have energy and planning to use it
viscid locust
should i lvl a dk and reroll?
but im hoping
blizzard realices his mistakes
and fix this
real bay
they wont remove amz so dk still good
main forge
I'll put it this way... My druid I'm leveling... which is normal n'yalotha gear is having less problems leveling in SL than my rogue did
I was dying all the time with MYTHIC gear on
on 1-2-3 mobs at a time....
main forge
My boomkin? Pulls the entire room and can root and stun.
viscid locust
is stupid
main forge
I can get into 2-3s easily... 4-5's not as easily, straight denied at 199 ilvl for 7-10s
viscid locust
ye but people wont pick a rogue oever a hunter
main forge
There is like ZERO dungeons where shroud is great right now
main forge
tricks is okay. our kicks and stuns are great(sub is amazing with SD and CS 3 mobs)
viscid locust
outlaw is overall better for M+
bc of aoe and gouge
but still
why bring a rogue
even affixes are a pain for rogues
main forge
Boomie, hunter, mage and UH DK does it better.
main forge
heck even monks do it better
raven egret
monks are probably best dps rn
main forge
Also stuck in combat and can't restealth.
viscid locust
monks are probably best dps rn
affli locks are toping already
they got the bug fixed and scale good with gear
main forge
Even fury warriors are doing well.. .my buddy plays one and we ran tonight... M0s and M+ and he was doing 10k dps on trash pack pulls
200 ilvl at most.
main forge
or is it arms... which ever one has bladestorm... and not whirlwind or whatever
viscid locust
arms, fury are trash
but they still provide utility
hp shout and ap one
aoe stun
main forge
probably offtanking that lasts longer that evasions 10 seconds
actually yeha he's playing fury
viscid locust
so im here
wondering what should i do
keep playing a rogue i invested all the time with and gold
or rerolling to a dk
main forge
I'm leveling my druid... not sure if I will play it as a main but its a nice diversion...
might level a DK or priest, or paladin too... anything that can keep me a spot...
I rezzed a 7 month old thread in the rogue wow forums that covered the loss of smoke bomb and rogues not having any utility... nothing has changed since then even if you read that thing and saw what we talked about.
main forge
Definitely is pumping on trash
dude was pulling 10k on packs.... pulling threat from the tank we were gearing in M0s
we all did it at ilvl 140 though prenerfs. so we were well practiced with that shit only two of us were geared.
gleaming eagle
Ye I don't think sin is good at all if what you are doing is
Mythic and raids
I think it's viable in pvp though
main forge
It didn't feel good to me last I played... I might give a try... but Sub definitely is better at PvP than Sin is or even could be
gleaming eagle
I've been getting most of my gear from pvp
main forge
Sub does what Sin does... and better
same abilities mostly... better talents... more burst
gleaming eagle
I think sin is better in a more sustain combat
main forge
Sin uses vendetta and the load is blown... no more DPS
gleaming eagle
just my opinion though but sub is better during burst window
main forge
Sub does the same or more sustain, and does have short bursts to help it too
so when you see that 20% hp... you can flip a switch and push it over
if vendetta isn't up you can't do that as sin
gleaming eagle
But I've been using
main forge
I love Sin by the way and prefer it... just stating what I have seen
I melt people faster as sub. and have more control
even if KS is on cooldown and kick... I can shadowdance and CS
and still save vanish
main forge
sub you can even switch over and CS a healer in range.
pseudo stratus
meh... the assassination playstyle is fine.. they just need to give Ass a flat 20% mastery bump and it would be ok
main forge
Sin needs more energy and combo points over mastery imo. its just too slow right now
for pvp and pve
in some fashion or form... its also the best way to add more damage in a consistent form without having to nerf it later when agility and secondary stats get higher
mastery might be the 2nd best.
but that's my feeling. I rather our bleeds and poisons not get a bump in damage nad it comes down to the abilities we press
gleaming eagle
well we definitely won't have sub burst
main forge
Rupture/garrote ticking mildly harder or DP ticking slightly higher(why no wound poison).... without Shrouded Suff or something like an Envenom crit guarantee
I'd like it to see another nuance or something to play with
not a fan of straight % damage buffs usually.
as it means the class wasn't balanced to begin with and is lacking in their actual abilities especially with how SLOW sin plays
I could do most of my rotation and pour a coffee without thinking or pressing buttons too fast
stoic needle
that's how sin is supposed to be
stoic needle
god why is stone legion heraldry the most boring trinket 😴
main forge
I gave mine to our druid tank that hasnt been getting gear. sounds cool but way too much to manage and nobody else is really rocking one to even use it to potential
stoic needle
i would've passed it but I didn't want to keep using the m0 trinkets i had
i'd have taken literally anything except the ocarina over it
main forge
and I sit with my 213 hateful chain that procs on dumb shit and gets me in trouble
I need to get rid of it
stoic needle
my guild just killed stone legion for the first time so im the only one with it
main forge
and a shadow totem thing at 187
stoic needle
what do you mean? hateful chain isn't good?
main forge
my trinkets are sad but wtfh
stoic needle
that was the one i wanted lol
main forge
IDK it might be fine but I find it busts shits out of CC that I am not directly fighting
stoic needle
i've got 200 memory of past sins and 207 heraldry, could be worse i guess
main forge
it proc'd on shade of bargast and broke CC four times on one shade
stoic needle
so you'll hit something with a ST ability and it'll proc on something else you didn't target?
main forge
I did an M+ tonight and I saw it proc while I was in stealth on a trash pack pull
I hadn't even hit an ability yet
main forge
I posted in bug reports and wowhead comments about that shit
obviously a bug... whether it gets fixed or not... dik
err idk
stoic needle
i guess i'll pass on that one if it comes up in my vault
main forge
That's why I got it... best upgrade from my vault for ilvl and everything
and replaced a blue
It's fine on fights that don't involve hard CC that pops on damage.
stoic needle
I can already see it getting me killed in M+
main forge
but poly and the like... BOOM.
stoic needle
gouge a shade, trinket procs, rip
main forge
I am not sure if it pulled an extra trash pack or two either in Mists or if it was the pug warlock tab targeting
I mean we needed the percentage and ti was the ardeanweald side so not a huge deal.
that trash is not exactly exciting but made the 2 pack pull into a 3 pack real quick
lol doing the DoS and those spinny bots after the slime frogger I think... I sat in the next room and watched them all go by and I'm in stealth and I just see a 660 damage go floating by on my target
err before the slime frogger whatever it is
gleaming eagle
hope we get more buffs
vast pond
Hopefully we'll see tonight or tomorrow
main forge
We need to get our rogue breathen to agree to not open lockboxes until Sin is buffed to a rightful place of a pure dps... which is not at the very bottom of the meters.
Rogues go on Strike!
Make Assassination Great Again! MAGA 2021
main forge
the one time I look into this chat on accident i see this
Did you laugh? Was it FUNNY TO YOU?
main forge
what are you playing which you don't have SnD? not rogue all of us have it now
balmy stump
^^^
shut yoke
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
main forge
If you get hitcapped you don't miss so much >_>
spice spire
I’m unsure about this, but autos have always missed. Even in BfA, they’d still miss You were just hitting so quick you’d miss it,
balmy condor
nope
you just have misses
standing behind the enemy means they cannot parry/dodge
but you will still miss
tardy furnace
assassination dream
spice spire
Checked bfa logs of missing envenoms 
main forge
I don't miss hit rating, but I not a fan of our biggest damage abilities missing like envenom and the like but whatever its normalized anymore that ain't holding us down
fleet whale
bring back reforging
vestal wren
gear is boring as fuck now
is being boring a issue?
regal prawn
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
is being boring a issue?
to some, perhaps not. but in my mind one of the best parts of an RPG is the process of gearing, the ability to create interesting and off-meta builds by stacking different stats, and also the tangible feeling of growth that you get from starting out in statless grey gear, going to green gear with some decent stats, getting a few rares, and then ultimately ending up decked out in epics. it's just one method of character power progression that just isn't possible anymore because all gear is perfectly or nearly perfectly statted. It's one of the things imo that helped create the problem of feeling flooded with loot that blizzard is now trying to fix. If every piece of gear didn't come with perfect stats, the bis items would feel more impactful without having to make every single gear piece arbitrarily rare like they have in SL.
vestal wren
to some, perhaps not. but in my mind one of the best parts of an RPG is the proc...
having to invest more time to get loot can be seen as something positive
stoic needle
I don't mind having to invest time to get loot. But the way things are it's much harder to feel any of the upgrades you get when you play your character, because you just do slightly more damage instead of going from missing 1/12 of your eviscerates to hitting them all once you get hit capped, to use hit chance as an example.
vestal wren
blizz did in my opinion something wrong in their reward structure, but the reward structure is not what makes gear boring or interesting
stoic needle
I think they're slightly related. Homogenizing the stats on gear definitely makes it boring though
vestal wren
a itemlevel upgrade is almost every time a upgrade, interessting loot is rly hard to achive
stoic needle
Like all I want in this expansion are items like Poxstorm, and all of the trinkets with cool effects because they aren't just flat stat upgrades
vestal wren
because whats interessting is usually trinkets if they are to strong or gear pieces with additional effects that are overbudgeted
stoic needle
that's why homogenizing stats is bad, if everything wasn't perfectly statted it would leave more room to have impactful gear upgrades that aren't OP effects
vestal wren
i didn't think that stats made loot feel better/worse
the only time stats did feel significantly better was in 8.3 with corruption
stoic needle
idk, I just very clearly remember going from being a warrior in classic in leather gear, getting two shot by any raid enemy that looked at me, to a full suit of plate gear and being able to take hits from bosses and just keep dpsing without a care, and how that changed my strategy and how i approached raid encounters
you can't really have that level of gameplay change from gear in retail anymore unless it's from a trinket or op item effect
in classic that was acheived just by increasing armor values and slowly adding more of certain stats(agility instead of just plain STR, more stamina, etc)
vestal wren
but that does not come down to stats being interesting but you getting a stupidly high amount of stats and a lot of classes had absurd scaling due to double dipping or similar issues
stoic needle
im not saying we need to go back to everthing being like classic, but homogenizing gear definitely seems like something that was lost over the years
vestal wren
i mean the entire thing is still the same
if you hit max level and try to tank a heavy target you will get killed
if you come back to the same with better gear you won't
stoic needle
it seems like it just gets worse as keys scale lol
like my character doesn't feel any different from going from 151 ilvl to 200 except that i attack slightly faster and do slightly more damage
whereas going from phase 1 prebis warrior to full tier 2.5 in classic is like basically a totally different character
vestal wren
well thats because you did not do content that showed you the diffrence
try to do difficult rare mobs on a fresh max level char
and do the same on one with better equipment
stoic needle
hmm i do still have all my rank 1 pvp gear in the bank maybe i'll try that lol
vestal matrix
I miss sin 😦
fleet whale
so when you get to renown 25 for niya, i should get the second potency conduit right
and then swap over to burs at 30?
balmy condor
yes
fleet whale
hopefully i have some luck now with conduits coming from emissary's
they just keep giving me epic outlaw and sub conduits lol
spark edge
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
ionic smelt
hey guys what is the overall dps in x dgn for assa expected? under 4k=? if well geared ofc
played assa whole bfa and performing really bad as sub and outlaw. can some pumpers share some data?
strange python
check the logs and substract about 20-30% from that because of power infusion gimping 😄
assa usually does scale very well though so expect a bigger comeback once gear levels get higher
strange python
what word? just joined the party
balmy condor
"scale"
mostly cause the thought that assassination magically becomes good with gear and sucks early in the expansion
is a lot of bullshit
drifting cosmos
Lol
balmy condor
its a common misconception that's based in literally no reality
classes do well, or do poorly by the systems in the game
the whole "oh this spec scales that spec doesn't" thing is pretty overblown
the only ones that can really complain is ww monk
but for everyone else, its pretty much fine
gusty mirage
at this point idk if a 2nd flat dmg % increase would even do anything for sin. It definitely wouldn't fix the underlying issues
balmy condor
5% more would make it viable for raid
fleet whale
poison katar is a joke of a conduit
gusty mirage
tbf its kind of fitting to where blizzard left assassination as a whole
fleet whale
also it's odd that the "scaling" myth even exists for assassin
cause when stat "scaling" actually was a thing, sin was the worst scaling spec of the three
balmy condor
ye
gusty mirage
I think its based on the insane idea that when we get more haste or [insert random secondary stat] it'll "fix" the spec
fleet whale
assassination has benefitted greatly from the end of expansion "systems" in BFA and Legion
Legion with t21 and insane mastery levels with zoldyck synergy
BFA with expedient and insane haste
fleet whale
you didn't even need lucid eventually lol
though lucid helped in EP for sure and lower to mid geared sin rogues in NYA
steep badger
Heard some thunder rumblin, did whisp see someone say the s word
strange python
5% flat buff does nothing. just look at how it helped fury
balmy condor
it does 5%
steep badger
4!
strange python
yet fury is still the bottom of the barrel, competing vs tanks and healers in dps meters 😄
assa isnt far ahead though
sadly
strange python
super long sustained cleave, fury does fine. so does prot pal
but i did 94 parses on fury doing 2.6k dps on devourer 😄
thats negative logs for almost every other class it feels like
balmy condor
strange python
fury is garbage
balmy condor
95 parse for heroic hungering is 3.5
strange python
and even then
balmy condor
strange python
are you high
just looking at WCL right now
highest boomie is 6.5k almost
Lorgok
in hc
balmy condor
so that's a max
you can look up parse breakpoints though
very useful for when you're just making up numbers
strange python
i aim high and not for green or blue parses. so i always look at the top 100
so my numbers arent made up just because they seem utopic to you
balmy condor
is 95 not high?
balmy condor
check the logs and substract about 20-30% from that because of power infusion gi...
also wasn't this you earlier? take the top log down according that and you'll get to about 4.8ish
strange python
are you new to numbers or something? seems like it. so maybe go back to school and dont piss me off
balmy condor
I'm very much not new to numbers
swift sky
are you new to numbers or something? seems like it. so maybe go back to school and dont piss me off
balmy condor
I just don't enjoy people overly using hyperbole
and spreading general misinformation
swift sky
mmm this is some delicious pasta
swift sky
thanks my dude
strange python
i didnt start a pointless argument. just dont want to waste my time with it
swift sky
which is basically saying ‘i know i am wrong but i am right anyways’
balmy condor
I didn't say you did, I'm just explaining why I keep correcting you
strange python
thats the problem with stupid people. they never stop talking and wont ever stop correcting others 😄 so go ahead. make a macaroni picture about it while youre at it. moms gonna be proud
unborn barn
It's fairly obvious this whalenut person is some obnoxious ill-mannered person, don't waste your time on him whispyr
swift sky
hey whisp i think ur pretty cool still
daring pecan
Whisp is cool in my book after having read the sin rework ideas 
balmy condor
you can use the HTML report on a sim for it
dpet (damage per execute time) can be found towards the top in a horizontal bar graph
no problem
dreamy jungle
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
calm dome
Alright ... I went Outlaw for the Day
3 last boss CN Normal
Inerva CN Heroic
cople of Mythic +11
The DPS is amazingly higher, feels really great to see big numbers everywhere
But I dont know if I will like the gameplay, pretty new and weird to me ...
Making big DPS or playing Assasin and enjoy ... Hard choice ahead of me
patent plaza
Im assuming a couple of the pins are outdated? I looked up expediant and exsanguinate and that was more for bfa and corruption, less im missing something?
patent plaza
Thanks boss! Was a bit confused haha. Didnt play bfa.
patent plaza
Makes sense
stoic needle
My sin only sims 400dps worse than my outlaw right now if I were to craft lvl3 zoldyck 
royal lantern
stoic needle
I mean it was almost double that a few weeks ago
pale dew
"Only" 
real bay
if sin was close to outlaw sim
guarantee most would swap instantly for pure ST bosses purely because its really easy to hit your sim dps as assa
ppl blindly stare at sims yet they cant perform what the sim does,
uncut schooner
Me playing sub tbh
oblique kiln
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
gleaming eagle
Any buff bois?
gleaming eagle
Rip
oblique kiln
Do you guys use leeching poison for torghast do you find it useful I find myself still getting hit so hard by the final bosses (layer 4,5) even after the nerf on my 190 sin rogue.
obtuse ruin
Alright ... I went Outlaw for the Day
3 last boss CN Normal
Inerva CN Heroic
co...
I’d say give outlaw a chance. Assa might gets some buffs in the future seeing its current state so might as well try outlaw for now
balmy condor
Do you guys use leeching poison for torghast do you find it useful I find myself...
Yes, master poisoner, subterfuge, leeching for sure
And then pray for red ink
ionic badger
Hey all i need some help
i play sin and i'd like to know what legendary is the best for it
for pvp and or pve :))
hybrid crystal
toxic tusk
Best is whatever you want it to be. Have fun!
balmy condor
whole dew
spice spire
Zoldyck’s but also sure!
balmy condor
Means it doesn’t matter
balmy condor
Yeh
ionic badger
:))
balmy condor
No dps gains in that row
ionic badger
tho won't you gain dps
from the first one
that gives you a bleed on the kidney
at least in pvp/single target
ionic badger
aha
yeah i see
hmm i don't have the top one need to do the raid :/
is the drop chance any good ?
balmy condor
On which
ionic badger
Dashing
balmy condor
All raid legendaries are 100% drop
balmy condor
I would suggest zoldyck though for raiding
balmy condor
Then you definitely don’t want dashing
ionic badger
maybe doom blade ?
balmy condor
If you’re a pvper, you’d build ma
balmy condor
Then there ya go
ionic badger
it's so so not the best not the worst from what ive seen
balmy condor
It’s the best sin’s got atm
ionic badger
hmm
doomblade might be better
cause of the Envenom
sort of build it with shiv
then stack up doom blade and then envenom
ionic badger
oh
ionic badger
never taught about that one
balmy condor
Welcome to shadowlands
balmy condor
Yes
ionic badger
like just jack it up xD
balmy condor
It was like 15-16k last I saw
balmy condor
There’s clips floating around with 20k crits but that’s prenerf I think
balmy condor
Yeah, next patch
ionic badger
oo
balmy condor
Not any time soon
obsidian willow
hi guys, just wondering, with better gear nowadays, is assassination still doing bad?
obsidian willow
cuz im pretty ok with my current outlaw spec now and I was thinking of crafting a new legendary and I wanna off-spec sin instead of sub
obsidian willow
cuz there are days when i dont wanna deal with the RNG of RTB lmao
balmy condor
Sin doesn’t get better with gear
obsidian willow
uhh, yeah it does lol. it gets better with more haste
balmy condor
It literally doesn’t
ionic badger
did more damage
balmy condor
The distance between sin and sub actually got wider with more gear
balmy condor
The whole “sin scales” bullshit
Is actually just nothing
It never existed
And the fucking community gobbles it up like cereal
obsidian willow
idk why blizz did this to sin
obsidian willow
i always thought that sin was their fave rogue spec tbh
balmy condor
I don’t think they have favorites, but if we go that route, outlaw would definitely be the one
ionic badger
Outlaw i find so bland lol
and the rng is just eh
like playing outlaw for me feels like i should just play warrior ;P