same
#assassination
low girder
his couple sockets make up for my extra gear i guess
balmy condor
All roads lead to 4k
supple compass
That’s kinda nuts, I can’t squeeze anything out beyond 3.8
balmy condor
Well without weapon enchants, probably yeah
Double celestial is super cheap though
I would do that
Sinful isn’t worth the cost imo
supple compass
I might just start raid with outlaw tbh, I’m nearly 3.6 and from what I’ve seen on the fights there are only two pure st
I’ll have to see what I am with wep enchants and a better offhand as well
velvet ridge
2 pure single target? theres 4 no? Shriek, hungering, artificer, and sludge
calm verge
someone tell me to stay outlaw and not switch back to assassination
balmy condor
Stay outlaw
balmy condor
uncut schooner
plain thistle
low girder
tfw newly promoted sin CF tells people not to play sin
drifting cloud
hes a sub sleeper agent
balmy condor
tfw newly promoted sin CF tells people not to play sin
I’m just doing what’s best for my community :P
low girder
lmao
strange python
quick question - where can we see what are the best enchants for the different slots? bis excel doesn't have that info (afaik)
balmy condor
You can click on the sims that are hyperlinked
Celestial + sinful daggers, and skirmish for chest
strange python
tyvm
north pewter
tfw newly promoted sin CF tells people not to play sin
no one should play sin, we're just stubborn
balmy condor
Whoa whyspyr got an upgrade
:) upgrade to poison spec
vast forum
@balmy condor gz on the promotion ❤️
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> gz on the promotion ❤️
Tyty friend 
vast forum
i don't come here often anymore but glad to see you going strong 😄
forced into DH prison for this tier 
balmy condor
north pewter
I keep telling myself it's gonna be okay.
fallow otter
Force multi where is at boys
And im still covered in blues, no legend
Wait that's the legend one
hollow bridge
you're also sub in Assassination spec discord channel 😛
fallow otter
I'd be sin if it wasn't a trash panda
Either way
Force multi
Get around it
Talking about enchants that's a cheap one we all already have for offhand
dry atlas
Force multiplier is capped at 140ilvl though
fallow otter
Yep
Ill try sim my gear for sin when I get home for comparison but easy win at the moment for sub
dry atlas
So why would you tell people to use it
fallow otter
Because it's good
It won't be for long, it's just for people Min maxing at the moment
Or saving gold
fallow otter
What can we get a sin sim to, with legend?
strange python
lol force multi still so strong, 81 agi though for liek 50% of the fight is nuts
I never actually got my hands on a 140 carapace dagger though so the 190 just barely scratches out my 130 w/force multi
fallow otter
Yeah, bit less good for sin than sub but still better than boe
Blizzard halp, sin is a dumpster fire
I've got a rogue guildy that only plays sin lol, lucky he has alt
bleak glacier
is zoldyck still our go-to leggo?
valid sluice
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
heavy vessel
Shadowcore oil or sharpening stone?
balmy condor
is zoldyck still our go-to leggo?
Yes
balmy condor
Shadowcore oil or sharpening stone?
Stone
balmy condor
omg <@!167090536602140682> you are green now
Thanks baaaaby 
I’ll come visit in sub sometime
gray fjord
Been trying to test this on the beta, (which is still active for some reason xD), but would any folks in hear be able to confirm if Internal Bleeding buffs Doomblade's 5% envenom damage? It appears to do so, but it's hard to tell for certain.
balmy condor
Yes it does
gray fjord
❤️ Ty Whispyr. I thought it did but I'm literally just killing mobs since it has to be stunnable for the bleed to trigger of course.
gray fjord
xD I know, I was thinking maybe it'd push it to be better for Torghast single target since bosses can be stunned but the debuff is so short on internal bleeding it'd only affect like 1 Envenom every 20 seconds or whatnot. More so just a note I was making to myself though so I didn't forget any interactions it technically does have with the toolkit.
finite oxide
oh no. most people in this channel are sub and talking about whether outlaw or sub is better. that bad, huh?
balmy condor
Sin is pretty awful atm yes
finite oxide
ah geez. probably not going to get tuned anytime soon, right?
balmy condor
Hope is next week
finite oxide
ok. I'm not sure whether or not to hold out. I leveled and got used to sin doing mythic 0 world tours expecting it to dominate early expac like it always does. OOPS
balmy condor
Well I would wait till the end of next week after raid tuning
finite oxide
alright, I'll do that. it's just babymodes this week anyway I guess. thanks
balmy condor
Any time
echo gust
whispyr, areyou playing sin right now?
balmy condor
Not in dungeons, no
finite oxide
I assume you're outlaw for those?
low girder
Whispyr's rogue only has 2 specs
finite oxide
I wish rogue only had 2 specs tbh
balmy condor
I’m a sub player xD
finite oxide
o i c
balmy condor
Outlaw aint my thing
finite oxide
I've never liked sub so I'm taking a peek at outlaw for back-up. probably has similar stat priorities as sin at this point too yeah?
balmy condor
Kinda
finite oxide
even torghast as assassination feels awful atm, augh
I sim 3362 in very suboptimal gear as sub and 2879 as sin in ideal gear as sin 😬
balmy condor
Yeah I’m about 4k on sub and 3500ish on sin
calm dome
@balmy condor Thanks a lot for your patience and your answers . You are our leader , a proud representant of our cause
echo gust
i like sin and outlaw
sub is just so..... odd
the constant cds thing and only have burst is awkward
finite oxide
sub is way too rollercoastery for me. even during shD for some reason I just don't feel like I'm doing big deeps like I do during adren rush
and multi-dotting as sin is just so pleasing
echo gust
celerity whoops subs ass imo
i hope they buff sin, cause i want to see that hot new rotation
finite oxide
I love blindside being way more impactful since it's ambush instead of backstab now but they really need to look at what SnD is even doing in this spec
echo gust
they wanted SnD as an unprune and constant maintenance
finite oxide
if you're necrolord then serrated bone spike is a joy to use imo, a filler for when you're pooling or starved that you actually have to think about
finite oxide
I get that but I wish I could feel it more when it was up
finite oxide
oh for sure, but I prefer the boosty jumpy feeling of bleeds giving energy boosts
echo gust
i concur
finite oxide
having rupture and garrote up feels like a reward vs snd mostly feeling like avoiding a penalty
echo gust
they made sin ALOT better in legion
finite oxide
and avoiding a penalty doesn't feel so good in rotations IMO
echo gust
then they just shit all over sub and reworked it like 5 times
finite oxide
I liked Legion sin but it was way too simple
finite oxide
I do like the slands rework of sin. in conjunction with pretty much any of the covenant abilities except maybe sepsis it's a good time
and less braindead
finite oxide
really? I only played with it while leveling and hated it
balmy condor
I do like the slands rework of sin. in conjunction with pretty much any of the c...
We got a rework?
finite oxide
we uh
they neutered shiv and put it where toxic blade was and unpruned ambush
total rework
.>
echo gust
sepsis sets up another stealthed garrote
finite oxide
troo
balmy condor
Except ambush sucks 
finite oxide
er unpruned SnD
finite oxide
blindside ambush at least feels better than blindside backstab. hated that shit in MoP
echo gust
we like SnD
stoic needle
sepsis doesn't enable the 80% bonus damage on garotte i'm afraid
balmy condor
Yuuup
balmy condor
No
balmy condor
It grants the ability to cast a stealth ability
gray fjord
It only lets you use a move from the stealth-required types (cheapshot/ambush), not actually be in stealth to use the move
^
balmy condor
It doesn’t grant combat stealth effects
echo gust
fucking knew i shoulda picked venthyr
finite oxide
they're all within 50 DPS apparently 🤷
and they're either going to pull the ripcord or rebalance everything anyway and re-covenanting will be a pita
echo gust
pita?
finite oxide
pain in the ass
echo gust
o
balmy condor
Yeah sepsis is fine
finite oxide
necrolord has a shitty soulbind but I picked it knowing it's all going to be tuned anyway and I want to be drafted in the bony boy war
plus serrated bone spike is fun as hell
balmy condor
i think they just nerf covenants over and over
Doubtful with how close they are atm
balmy condor
Who knows
echo gust
reset button
balmy condor
Says who
echo gust
more borrow power
balmy condor
Says who
finite oxide
what's wrong with borrowed power anyway 🤔
balmy condor
You don’t know that and neither do I
finite oxide
aren't like, tier sets borrowed power
echo gust
probably get to use 2 leggos
balmy condor
All I know is that our covenants are some of the most balanced we’ve seen in a while
And their lack of interaction with legendaries will continue to be good for that balance
echo gust
i predict massive nerfs to sub
finite oxide
people are whining HARD about sub in PvP, I def feel a shift coming
finite oxide
idk if they're exaggerating but people are saying they aren't lasting a stunlock
finite oxide
aren't lasting a stunlock*
echo gust
ive done it, and ive seen it done
finite oxide
as in sub opener is just an I win button
finite oxide
either way simming myself was so depressing I'm going to start stocking up on mastery/vers gear lol
finite oxide
oh
I only briefly glanced at what sub uses
oh derp, mastery/vers. simming myself, that's what raidbots says to get
...
CRIT vers*
balmy condor
haste is best for all rn
Please research a little more before making claims
echo gust
Please research a little more before making claims
nani!?
balmy condor
Haste is not all that great a stat for sub
strange python
sins mostly like haste for the dot ticks
not really a lot of use for subs like 1 dot
duhface
almost done picking up all my haste gear and preparing for disappointment
finite barn
can blizz buff sin plz thnx kk
jaunty arrow
Nope, they will nerf other classes and specs 😅
finite barn
I'd bet UH, Balance, Spriest get nerfed. Maybe MM, and sub, but hopefully Sin gets a buff, I don't want to play outlaw 😛
strange python
outlaw is kind of fun as a change of pace
but i get it, sin is still the bst
trying to collect all the haste gear from mythics
there is some good pieces with a tonn of haste, gonna stack with vent hste buffs and see if I can do anything as sin
finite barn
I have always enjoyed Sin and I enjoy sub as well, but outlaw is kind of meh, feels too spammy.
fallow otter
but i get it, sin is still the bst
Fake news
strange python
i like the build with the pistol shot that givers you 2cp
i mean, thematically
then you have to rotate around your between the eyes
its a fun little ocmbo
whole lance
i like the build with the pistol shot that givers you 2cp
Same, the more gun based skills the better imo. Let me be a pirate blizzard 
finite barn
Sub doesn't feel too spammy to me, but maybe thats because I've just gotten used to it, lol.
stoic needle
Fuck kyrian
I don't particularly care for outlaw. The pirate theme is forced as hell
whole lance
Wish outlaw had a legendary that just blasted cannonballs or some shit lol
strange python
i like only play rogue so its kind of a fun change of pace for m+
whole lance
At least go all the way with the theme If you’re gonna do it imo
fallow otter
Honestly they arnt much different, spam mut or ss and spend on evis or envenom. Keep up rup and snd. Press some other buttons in between
stoic needle
They should make outlaw it's own class like DH
strange python
yaa that's what im saying, sub is just sin now
stoic needle
And bring back combat
strange python
sub should just be gutted and rolled into sin
then give us something cool like trickster or spellblade or something with flavor
cuz sub is just sin with some extra cheapshots
whole lance
Would be cool if they went extra heavy on sub being shadow dmg based (even more so), give the 3 specs even more identity with physical dmg outlaw, bleeds/nature sin, shadow sub
strange python
shadow would have some flavor for sure
whole lance
Sub was super exciting to me in beta with the shadow dmg profile when we were running deeper daggers
Before they nerfed all the shadow shit
strange python
i'm enjoying my sub, a little energy starved outside of your roto, but damn is it satisfying ganking
stoic needle
It's definitely fun for pvp but it's kinda boring in PvE
stoic needle
I need to get my 2nd soulbind unlocked so I can do that easier
Atm it's a bit of a pain
strange python
haha ya was a pain setting up 2 profiles for everything with the UI and keybindings
took a bunch of hours getting everything just right
whole lance
Funny seeing y’all sin boys saying sub is boring and vice versa with the other rogue spec players find sin boring. Shows at least rogues have some variety to play styles. If only the specs could ever be playable on the same patch lol
stoic needle
Forreal
strange python
haha ya kinda glad I can play all 3 specs now
strange python
haha ikr took forever to setup all that weakaurus stuff for two specs
whole lance
It could always be worse, your fav class/spec could be demonology lol. Those poor souls have been in the gulag for years.
stoic needle
I basically came up with a keybind set that I apply to all of my characters now
What's wrong with demo?
strange python
haha tru, but lock gets the best cosmetics in the game
stoic needle
Well my other class is warrior
whole lance
Just seems to never be in a good state
Even though it seems to always be in patch notes nothing changes lul
strange python
what about survival?
stoic needle
Arms is so bad the generic kyrian legendary is the best for ST
whole lance
To be fair even if survival is a top end melee spec it’s going to be less desirable than one of the ranged specs
stoic needle
Like every single one of arms' legendaries are bad except for signet
whole lance
Because of the nature of the game
finite barn
What's survival? I thought hunters only had two specs.
whole lance
Basically lol
stoic needle
Idgaf about that I get to play whatever class and spec I want in my guild
whole lance
Survival is actually really good for aoe I think
stoic needle
I'd go sin full time but atm it feels like being an actual dead weight
strange python
interesting didn't know that
i just played with an enhanment shaman, that was p sweet
getting all those fast moving buffs
whole lance
It’s just riskier than bringing mm that can do more dmg in every other scenario and is safer
And BM brings utility with pets
So it’s kinda like why bother with surv
strange python
ya
in theory it was supposed to be a decent class when they started putting work into it
whole lance
Surv never should have been made melee in the first place, especially same xpac they added another melee dps with legion
strange python
ya i heard raidslots are a big issue with them
whole lance
Every dps spec they’ve added since vanilla has been melee lol
strange python
which just to me seems like why not fix them so they dont' suck
south drum
Yeah I can't imagine survival ever getting a raid spot
whole lance
Survival is a really good concept with the traps, just make them ranged again and it’s lit
south drum
Yeah and give them a better utilty toolkit so you'll pick over the other specs
bleak glacier
make it hybrid or something, bear grylls beat
whole lance
Hell make them the first dual wield ranged spec with slightly shorter range on their attacks and dual wield lil arm crossbows lmao
Idk something
bleak glacier
lmao fury hunter
whole lance
Exactly
bleak glacier
shit anythings possible
south drum
Give them so more stuns, party/raid buffs, dubble turtle form or something and it would be great
whole lance
Or just rework them into the tinkerer class that’s been talked about for years lul
I’d reroll to toss nades and turrets and shit
south drum
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
atomic gate
Wows class design leaves so much on the table
ornate dawn
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
shadow halo
I’m mainly playing subt but I’m exploring others specs to change in certain bosses. Is assassin alive in pve?
vale marten
calm verge
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
opaque mauve
Sin is likely to have a bit of tuning next week, as it’s so low right now I think
distant cypress
That's what sub players kept telling themselves for almost whole of bfa
SURELY NEXT WEEK BROS
ornate dawn
#PrayforSin
strange python
Play what you like. If you like big numbers play Sub or maybe OL in m+. If you like to play sin and don't mind being trash, even when played well, play sin.
vestal wren
sub and outlaw are rly close on st
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
primal zinc
!bis
real bay
big true, I did m0 with a sub and crushed him on trash as OT,pretty equal on bosses
real bay
waiting for buffs room
quasi scroll
Anyway I just tried Fractured torghast on assassin ilvl 163 and got destroyed
how do you deal with that mob who spawns whenever you're out of combat?
aka stealth
solemn pier
they despawn when you vanish as well
real bay
keeps you in combat
quasi scroll
I did all of these on paladin and it was a piece of cake
can't believe how hard it is on rogue even if he is all blues
Get the worst abilities too?
real bay
the powers seem really weak in comparison
quasi scroll
Last night my choice was: when surrounded by 5 mobs you + enemies get hit by a dot
OR, you + enemies receive +25% Crit
either way I'm taking damage
on the run just now I had "you return 40% of any damage taken as shadow BUT you can no longer walk backwards"
I tried the "distract turns into a timebomb" one
75% of packs were in combat and ability was worthless
hybrid lion
actually saw an sin rogue in a m0 today 😮 dream's not dead
marble hemlock
thoughts on exsang vs alac on sludgefist @balmy condor
real bay
I saw one too, he was behind so bad it wasn't funny
supple compass
The energy regen and subsequent cp regen just kills it
normal olive
I played assa today
1 boss and i respeced after seeing the 5k dps diffrence between assa and sub
marble hemlock
@grizzled jay why not?
lines up nicely with burst windows
and setting up pandemic bleeds before charge, then exsanging them for the vuln and having higher energy gain for a proper shiv burst during the vulnerability
sounds nice on paper atleast
question is whether its worth more than losing alac 😄
frozen echo
alright so
Seems like the combo generators dealing 100% more dmg from torghast. was woprking outside of torghast
quite amusing
gleaming eagle
nerf echoing
pure ingot
!WA
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
pliant apex
chance of sin to get hotfixed before raid launch?
dawn merlin
Slim
strange python
chance of sin to get hotfixed before raid launch?
Miniscule. If we get hotfixed it is before mythics. Wouldn't bet on it, blizz being blizz.
dark token
blizzard uses raid logs to balance so
tardy steppe
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
dark token
if they get 5 assa logs they see the spec is underplayed because its weak and buff it 
dark token
they do changes before mythic week, and after world first is done
not in between unless something STUPIDLY broken
pliant apex
I hope they buff it a bit before mythic raid starts
you bet, sub SUCKS
good dmg, shit to play
normal olive
i wouldn't say it sucks, it's just not something i enjoy
uncut schooner
👀 Navi.
dull ivy
Is Zink's subtle Shank BiS rn?
uncut schooner
You'll get rid of it in like 1-2 days time, if you're considering buying it.
stoic needle
So should we or shouldn't we play sin the first week to increase the chances of buffs?
dense cedar
if u play sin your RL might bench you 
strange python
you bet, sub SUCKS
many do enjoy the spec. But I'm pretty sure most of those are bandwagoners, who change to the next op spec when the numbers get toned down.
stoic needle
if u play sin your RL might bench you <:SmugSakura:354383087473524746>
They won't, my guild doesn't care about class/spec
dense cedar
i don't think its band wagoning to change spec for performance reasons
strange python
How would you define band wagoning?
stoic needle
Band wagoning would be choosing a spec only by what is the top dps currently
strange python
I would say it is chasing the op spec and changing the char you play accordingly.
dense cedar
its still a rogue
stoic needle
Yeah
strange python
@stoic needle exactly
stoic needle
It would be someone who rerolled from another class to sub to be top dps
dense cedar
i can see that ye
strange python
That's what I meant originally.
dense cedar
@strange python mb i thought u meant the sin to sub switchers
strange python
But I guess one could call switching spec according to what's top dps band wagoning inside a
class. Didn't mean that originally tho.
stoic needle
It depends on how much the difference is
dense cedar
i mean you don't do really any extra work when switching spec
stoic needle
Sin is bad enough that I don't think it applies here
dense cedar
you wouldn't call it bandwagoning to switch from a poison to bleed build would you?
strange python
@dense cedar I'm quite sure many folks rolled a rogue after seeing how op sub is atm. Could be wrong tho, don't have any stats or anything.
stoic needle
If it were like a 100 dps difference between sin and sub and people were switching, that'd be bandwagoning
dense cedar
i suppose it depends on the content you're doing
if you're actually trying to clear hard content
stoic needle
Personally I haven't played retail in years, I picked sub because I thought the idea of using stealth abilities outside of stealth was cool, and now after playing it a bit I find it kind of boring
dense cedar
i think its fine to want to perform best for your group
tulip pasture
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
dense cedar
your spec choice isn't just picking it to be strong for yourself
you also pick strong specs to be helpful
stoic needle
Assassination was my rogue spec way back in the day, I'd just like it to be competitive with the other specs so I don't feel forced to play sub or outlaw to not be dead weight
strange python
@dense cedar prob not. I guess it's called "wow-head cookie cutter build" or something. I've seen the word used in a similiar context, but not really sure how it is defined.
OTOH It is a bit boring to play what ever wowhead says you should play tho. YMMV. Makes the game a low shallower from my point of view.
strange python
@dense cedar yeah, might be different if you do mythic raiding or something. I play in a heroic raid guild. We get more challenge when ppl play something a bit sub optimal
if everyone rolls with the best possible classes & builds the game is á lot easier.
stoic needle
(and boring)
dense cedar
i can understand changing your class to be a bit dull
but i think changing spec is a normal thing to do
especially if they share gear
like double daggers to double daggers
strange python
@stoic needle It depends. Something that's boring to me is very important to someone else.
dense cedar
i'd assume most rogue players that clear even heroic
can probs flex 2 specs if need be for wahtever reason
like if you switch specs between fights
for performance reasons
i don't think that's shallow
strange python
I've only really played assassin. Our GL plays outlaw so I don't want to play the same spec. I have always disliked sub, so it's very easy for me 😄
one class, one spec.
stoic needle
I don't begrudge people for min/maxing to the highest degree, that in of itself can be fun. But I can't say that raiding with only the fotm specs is as interesting as raiding with people who are playing classes mostly because they enjoy them
strange python
and it's what I like. I'm sure many would find it dull as hell.
stoic needle
It's lame that high end raiding is mostly ranged
dense cedar
ye
pistol rogue incoming
It was basically trolling to be melee heavy in Queen's Court
strange python
our comp is super melee heavy.
dense cedar
there's a lot of fights that are just
strange python
melee & leather. Epic stuff.
dense cedar
"stand away from any target"
strange python
Yeah ofc. But heroic is heroic. It is usually doable even with a bad comp.
stoic needle
At this point I think I'm just cursed to like suboptimal specs
My favorite specs atm are sin, arms warrior and enhancement shaman
ornate dawn
Off topic to this but how much do we think stat prio is likely to change? - Seems an investment picking missives for legendaries
floral shoal
I used to switch between combat and assa due to which weapons dropped first for me. When Outlaw was new I killed like two bosses and switched to assa because I didn't like the spec. I thought assa in BfA was really nice. Now in SL I played a couple m0 as assa and switched to outlaw because I don't like assa anymore. Is that peak bandwagoning?;)
strange python
enha gives BL? I would reckon it would be usefull, even if the specs numbers are super low.
dense cedar
@strange python how easily does your team clear heroic?
stoic needle
It's never bandwagoning to switch away from sin because it feels like ass right now lol
dense cedar
@ornate dawn the missive investment is basically mitiaged by 1-2 pieces of gear and encants
stoic needle
enha gives BL? I would reckon it would be usefull, even if the specs numbers are...
You're absolutely right, but most people don't care about the utility and just want big number
strange python
@dense cedar it depends. The goal is to be ahead of the curve and we usually hit that.
dense cedar
if you get there fast enough
you may aswell turn one raid night into mythic
trying doesn't hurt
strange python
@stoic needle I guess it depends on what you enjoy. I play for fun so I don't really need to play anything I don't like.
But I guess with mythic you need a 20 man team? Isn't it scaled like that or something?
dense cedar
yes
but if you're clearing heroic in 1 night
im sure you have 10 people not interested in mythic
or can't peform for it
it isn't toxic to let people make their own fun
strange python
Yeah. I think for mythic we would need to change the comp drasticly tho. PPL couldn't play what they love & like as much.
real bay
why would mythic players be in a guild which goal is curve,, its their problem not the guild
strange python
But. GTG, movie night. Take care :>
we have some players who also do mythic. Like 1 or 2 who have been with the guild for 10 or so years
real bay
you decide what your own goal is and act accordingly
dense cedar
talking about curve players giving mythic a go for funsies
not mythic players settling for a curve guild
real bay
first few bosses for sure usually easy
twin prism
So do you guys plan to play assassination even though its not performing so well in sims?
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> I guess it depends on what you enjoy. I play for fun so I...
I guess I was speaking more about the general population of WoW. I play what I enjoy too. It's just kinda funny I always end up picking the 'worst' ones
balmy condor
thoughts on exsang vs alac on sludgefist <@!167090536602140682>
Idk the timing, but if it lines up, it might be value
balmy condor
So do you guys plan to play assassination even though its not performing so well...
I’m gonna try it, but I’m doubtful on sticking with it
twin prism
Do you really think its gonna be as bad as the sims suggest?
balmy condor
Yes
tame slate
why would mythic players be in a guild which goal is curve,, its their problem ...
I think the question is how hardcore Mythic you want to be. For example, I would want to attempt Mythic, but I'm not gonna invest the time to join a hardcore guild. If you're talking about a hardcore player, then you are right
balmy condor
There’s not really a niche outside of the exsang thing seli was talking about earlier where sim might have a place, but even then, sub lining up CDs is just stronger
balmy condor
Also whispyr green I missed it <:pogu:585748895917801473>
;)
marble hemlock
ye its every 60secs
the vuln on sludgefist
so maybe subter+exsang might actually be value, who knows
balmy condor
Oh 60 seconds?
That’s problematic
But still might be good
I don’t think it would be mega gains
But there’s a chance
balmy condor
I think subterfuge is fine
The problem is wether or not that 100% vuln phase is enough for exsang to overtake alac
And exsang is uh, pretty behind
And it goes further with conduits right
marble hemlock
dunno actually
high WPS with good energy flow
might be better than alac for those 12secs
balmy condor
But you’re forgetting that high WPS benefits twice from alac vs once from exsang
teal stratus
is there a way to sim oil vs sharpening stones?
balmy condor
Yes, you have to do it through fake enchants on gear by editing their string
There was a thing about it in #tc-research let me get you a link
balmy condor
is there a way to sim oil vs sharpening stones?
It’s a bit of a read, but should answer any questions you have
teal stratus
ty
plain onyx
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
grizzled jay
mort'regar gonna be hardd
I only beat it cause my last Anima Power from the Broker was the 1.5m bubble lmao
grizzled jay
It's a random anima power
frozen echo
my 3rd layer on fractured I had such good buffs
echoing rampant free usage. reset. and anima charge combo point makes it 20 points
14k envenoms all over the place
i had to rush it sadly cuz I made some mistakes and had that big ass mob chase me
so i skipped around 2 floors due that
quasi scroll
1 boss and i respeced after seeing the 5k dps diffrence between assa and sub
heartbreaking
twin prism
Is outlaw performing similar to assassination or i should pretty much just go for sub this raid?
balmy condor
Outlaw is much better than sin
And roughly equal or better to sub depending on situation
steep badger
whisp drank the blood of manoroth, rip
balmy condor
True
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
uneven summit
wait so now dashing over zoldycks?
balmy condor
For single target, yes, always has been
dense cedar
unless its a 30 min long execute phase of course 🙂
balmy condor
true, maybe I'll look into how long the execute needs to be to make zoldyck bis 
blazing swift
When opening do i put up rupture or SnD first?
balmy condor
snd
blazing swift
ty
calm dome
on opening ST with Subterfuge . Is it Garrot / Ambush / SnD then mutilate till 5CP Rupt and so on ?
balmy condor
gar mut snd
calm dome
no more Ambush in my casts bar ?
calm dome
and if I crit with mut its 4 right ? So better aim to maximize Cp than pur damage ( because ambush makes more damages than mut )
serene basin
yeah, mut crits gives you 4(with both hands lol) about the dmg output, i think it will be near
depends on how much energy you have, cp, etc
but dont waste the blindside proc
calm dome
I play with EP
serene basin
EP is usually good for multiple targets situation
its recomended blindside to ST
helps with the energy starve
fleet whale
#makeblindsidebaseline
calm dome
Thanks I will try this out
serene basin
np
serene basin
#makeblindsidebaseline
blazing swift
I wish Exsanguinate was baseline tbh
fleet whale
nah, exsang doesn't need to be baseline
in fact i would axe the talent, redesign the whole 45 row
fallen raven
i like the idea of Poison / Balanced / Bleed as the three options but none of the talents are conceptually great
though that’s also true of 50 i’d say
fleet whale
I guess i'm in the minority and think that bleeds should take more of the back seat role for assassin, as that was the case historically
and have it more focused around poisons, and execute, and build the spec around that
fallen raven
i’d really like for them to revamp poisons, make them more active
which is to say: where the hell is kingsbane
stoic needle
balmy condor
playing sub?
fleet whale
having both TB and Kingsbane was really fun on Antorus, especially since the CD's were un-aligned
grim mason
click specilization tab>click sub>activate 🙂
fleet whale
it gave assassin a unique playstyle for that tier
stoic needle
i much prefer cds that you don't need to stack
different cds for different situations
fleet whale
yeah, that's why i liked the KB/TB dynamic
stoic needle
I dislike CD stacking specs because in order to be balanced they need to be somewhat mediocre with their cooldowns down
stoic needle
I mean look at sub, backstab feels awful
you're trying to make it shadowstrike as much as you can
fleet whale
in the case of TB/KB i think having two un aligned cds was ok
stoic needle
like the majority of their damage is shifted into the shadow dance window
fleet whale
i liked the CD juggling back then
and yes i do wish sub could do something to be more relevant outside of dance/symbols, other than just maintaining SnD and Rupture
but tbf they aren't the only spec that works like that
stoic needle
sure, thats why I was talking about CD stacking specs in general
it's a fine concept its just not super enjoyable to me
serene basin
click specilization tab>click sub>activate 🙂
thats the kind of thing that makes me cry
balmy condor
156 is pretty impressive, grats
ember mural
mortregar, the layer you kite a mawrat waiting for vial CD to avoid the stupid add that spawns when not in combat
frozen echo
I just bank on echoing upgrades and skip most of the floors
like this is just alil delight on last boss. It was that binder boss. quite annoying
balmy condor
as long as you're not skipping upgrade orbs
frozen echo
never skipping em
dense cedar
I think assassination should be allowed to dual wield 2handers
normal olive
grim mason
Torghast isnt turning out like blizz hoped
after doing that shit once I am out fuck that place
they were so proud of it tho
knotty bear
rogue powers are pretty boring
grim mason
like everyone else!
cuz they hype it
I am certain they sold it with yu can do it whenever you want you get powerups/loot
guess loot was dropped from it hu
I'd rather spam random bg all day and lose than do torghats 🙂
knotty bear
yeah, just no reward for doing it after weekly soul ash... and it isn't nearly fun enough to repeat without incentive
rustic thunder
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
grim mason
had to tell my frost mage orb bliz orb bliz orb blizz is the rotation
knotty bear
lmao
I just do it with my UH dk friend
he basically carries me
because rogue powers are trash if you arent kyrian
meanwhile he's doing 20k dps
somber thistle
For the legendary , haste/vers? or?
balmy condor
yup or haste/crit, both fine
somber thistle
thanks
grim mason
rextroy our here breaking blizz game lmao, he just soloed Mythic Theathre
balmy condor
wasn't that on saturday
grim mason
yeah
balmy condor
you can go into #bot-spam and use !subtlety and !outlaw and !assassination to add/remove the roles
shrewd pivot
awesome. thanks for the effort post
balmy condor
np
shrewd pivot
marked for death or vigor?
balmy condor
mfd for m+, vigor for raids
shrewd pivot
i don't like strategem because energy is scarce
balmy condor
good, you shouldn't, it's pretty bad for sin :P
balmy condor
I didn't include gems on purpose in order to maintain the purity of stats between items
you should use the same logic as for ring enchants, always your highest stat
haste is probably a safe bet
strange python
Whispyr with that poisoners upgrade, you feeling hope for a sin tune in a week n a bit?
balmy condor
like I've always said, mythic week tuning is the biggest chance for sin to become "viable" again
strange python
Here's hoping hey, OL and Sub are so close
balmy condor
but I doubt it'll be enough to fix sin for m+
balmy condor
vigor never good
what do you mean?
shrewd pivot
mfd is probably sin meta forever
strange python
Dot specs in m+ always suffer a bit even if just for the community impression 😦
fleet whale
how is vigor never good
balmy condor
MFD is only really viable in m+ with frequent resets
there might be a fight or two in raids where its good as well
shrewd pivot
i prefer having free combo point generators
balmy condor
but vigor in general will net you better results than mfd
strange python
isn't free energy essentially consistent fractional free cp?
balmy condor
free energy is consistent to free cp, yes
vital kettle
is shiv necessary ? always been wondering
balmy condor
its a little more complicated than that
fleet whale
oh are you leveling?
strange python
but in a long way around lol basically the same
balmy condor
but generally speaking, you can make that 1 to 1
shrewd pivot
maybe after your opening rotation, shiv > mutilate > envenom
balmy condor
is shiv necessary ? always been wondering
shiv is a core rotational ability on sin
fleet whale
it's basically our colossus smash
shrewd pivot
then knife for the extra proc
shrewd pivot
im a pvper
balmy condor
as in throw knife?
shrewd pivot
mfd is meta foreva
shrewd pivot
its only 30 sec cd
vital kettle
okay, maybe the french translation of the spell isn't that great, never really quite understood his effect
balmy condor
@verbal mantle
shrewd pivot
i use it for my pvp rotations often
balmy condor
baguette summon
shrewd pivot
probably tranlates into pvm too
fleet whale
mfd is not a great pve talent for sin, at least in raiding
fleet whale
and even in M+ you can run vigor and get similar results
balmy condor
oui?
our french friend @vital kettle got some shiv confusion, maybe language barrier related :)
vital kettle
ahahah
balmy condor
and yeah, mfd is technically the m+ choice, but vigor is fine
and vigor in general, especially in raids
is mega
balmy condor
ty daddy
fleet whale
sad i took french in both HS and college, and got good grades both times
verbal mantle
anytime 
fleet whale
but can barely read that lol
vital kettle
French's harsh lol
fleet whale
i didn't think it was too bad, it's similar to English in a lot of ways
due to the whole great vowel shift that happened years ago lol
primal zinc
ty @balmy condor ❤️
balmy condor
np
brisk forge
Is there and macro so i can macro myt and ambush if i am playing with blindside :S
mut*
so they go on same button
balmy condor
I should pin that 
frozen echo
imagine ur first 3 anima powers are all echoing reprimand upgrades
stoic needle
is there any way to make a weakaura change properties during a % of the remaining time on a debuff instead of a flat number? trying to program pandemic into my weakauras
plain onyx
Is there and macro so i can macro myt and ambush if i am playing with blindside ...
Exactly what I want
brisk forge
hmmm, just copy that muuuttttttt thingy? is that a addon he uses? isnt the same as macro default. or atleast not the first thing he opened
balmy condor
that's gnomesequencer
the default macro support in game doesn't support ambush/mutilate macroing like that
brisk forge
yeah i see. Do i just copy that long ass mut macro?: S
brisk forge
aha, cool, me being a bit slow xD Thanks for the help!
Do u know if i can remove the text must be in stealth that pop up on the screen? :S
with remove anything or so
balmy condor
probably an error-text blocking addon
brisk forge
ah, do u know any one? 😄
balmy condor
nope
brisk forge
aight, gotta look for it
frigid kestrel
is there any way to make a weakaura change properties during a % of the remainin...
If you looking for a queue specifically for when you should refresh on pandemic windows you can make the aura your trying to create blink, shine, or ping at the value that pandemic starts.
Example: SnD pandemic starts at 12 seconds. Set your WA to give you some sort of visual queue or sound at the 12 second mark of your SnD.
Hope this helps you out.
grim mason
where are we getting ash
i didnt cap last week and this week i only have 600
like where is it from
balmy condor
from both wings torghast and the quests
balmy condor
there was a quest last week and this week as part of the general campaign
that gave soul ash
grim mason
actually 500 now 2nd wing will be 800/1250
ashes of the tower/
doesnt show a reward for me
says reward and its blank
3/9 campaign and no other quest with ash reward
balmy condor
so last week, it was 305 from each wing for 610, plus doing quests related to it for +200, for a total of 810
not covenant
just general maw/torg
vital crown
is there any news of buffs or changes coming for assasination? I really hate having to play sub
balmy condor
this week you got 305 x2 for another 610, which brings it to 1420, and then a quest for 100
balmy condor
i think assassination is doing well
its not
balmy condor
is there any news of buffs or changes coming for assasination? I really hate hav...
buffs at the end of next week hopefully with mythic tuning
balmy condor
yeah, we just don't know what, or how, or even if
vital crown
hopefully something decent
balmy condor
most likely just an aura buff and they call it a day
grim mason
what's a "aura" buff?
balmy condor
every spec has a hidden passive attached to them, a self-aura
knotty bear
if it gets at least a 10% aura i will probably swap tbh
balmy condor
that increases all damage they deal
vital crown
see even that would be good
balmy condor
so if you go into sin for example, the aura buff is 27%, sub is 21%, outlaw is 13%
and that's just how that's panned out over the patches
vital crown
as long as its something to push it even with sub
balmy condor
that doesn't have any bearing on how strong it is
its just a number they can tune to quickly increase all damage a spec does
so with sin for example, our damage is low across the board, but the gameplay is mostly fine
there's nothing immediately like "oh that's broken op" or "oh that's really weak"
so its likely they add x% to the aura, to increase all sin rogue damage
and then just leave it there, quick dirty solution
shrewd pivot
thats like the best outcome
knotty bear
best outcome would be talent tree rework :p
but for a tuning pass, aura is probs best
fallen raven
i'd like that
fallen raven
i'd probably swap back if it was competitive via just damage tweaks but slightly higher energy regen this early would be nice
i imagine blizz will be conservative since we're still at very low gear levels
grim mason
ah ok I see, thank @balmy condor
balmy condor
no problem
knotty bear
i imagine blizz will be conservative since we're still at very low gear levels
I am sure whispyr would love for you to elaborate 
balmy condor
you can also see the actual thing here: https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/spell=137037/assassination-rogue
@grim mason
balmy condor
I am sure whispyr would love for you to elaborate <:kekw:610125925413289985>
In the spirit of christmas, I wouldn't touch that with a thirty-nine-and-a-half foot pole
grim mason
o.0
knotty bear
does sin fare decently in 2-3 targets whispyr?
or does it have the same issue as aoe
balmy condor
bout as good as sub, yeah
knotty bear
so not great then lols
balmy condor
2-3 target is like, the one thing that sin kinda enjoys
its about on par with sub in 2-3 target, slightly better depending on the sim and the alignment of the stars
but that being said, outlaw smashes in 2-3 target
so
knotty bear
ye
balmy condor
kinda still trash XD
knotty bear
so aura wouldnt do much to rectify that anyway
just lower the chasm between the specs
balmy condor
yeah, aura would fix raid stuff mostly
m+ is still going to be very hard to justify
knotty bear
sucks
won't be able to drop sub completely
and i'd rather play an undertuned sin than outlaw
balmy condor
with a decent enough buff, I'm playing sin in raids and then sub in m+
balmy condor
would need a specific rupture buff for that to work
and would probably make nightstalker very competitive
fallen raven
just to clarify: i'm not doing a "sin scales" kinda argument, just that i think they're more likely to touch the aura rather than any abilities at this point
balmy condor
:) good
fallen raven
don't want to make any changes that might affect things down the line without testing
so yeah, 9.1
balmy condor
frail fossil
OOOF
balmy condor
:)
frail fossil
I SAID THE FORBIDDEN WORDS
surreal hawk
the bis outlaw conduit is pretty 
wild lantern
Don't let him fool you, we have clips of him playing outlaw
frail fossil
Don't let him fool you, we have clips of him playing outlaw <:kekw:6101259254132...
send
balmy condor
wild lantern
@proper sage do you have that clip?
balmy condor
keep it on topic to the channel or I'll have to moderate you jez :)
frail fossil
the forbidden clips
proper sage
no that's staying in my folder for safe keeping
finite oxide
so the wowhead rankings have mut third or fourth worst DPS spec in nathria. out of everyone. accurate?
balmy condor
close enough, yeah
knotty bear
less of a gap between sin and prot pally than sin and sub 🙂
finite oxide
😬
balmy condor
yup
finite oxide
in mythic 0's I was out-DPS'd by the veng DH often
fleet whale
sin is bad, but not that bad
shouldn't be losing to VDH's in M0s
unless if it's a huge gear gap
finite oxide
it got better as my ilvl went up 🤷
knotty bear
on trash pulls vdh goes big with cov abil
finite oxide
at the time it was similar to the DH
surreal hawk
decree does 102314914k dps
finite oxide
at around 156 the DH was passing me, at around 180 I started to pass them
stoic needle
If you looking for a queue specifically for when you should refresh on pandemic ...
@balmy condor thanks. I was just curious if there was a way to make it react dynamically to the length of the original dot. or is the pandemic window based on the maximum duration(@5cp) instead of the duration @ the cp you cast it with?
balmy condor
you can do that through custom code
the pandemic window is dynamic to your current CP in respect to rupture/slice since the duration changes with cp
stoic needle
yeah that's what I thought
balmy condor
I used custom code for it in the past, but with conditionals I just found it un-necessary
in my screenshot you see 10 conditions, that's cause I put in the logic for every CP, and I have some logic for exsang and alpha for out of combat in there, but the open condition, condition 9, is this:
If all of
remaining duration of the current rupture <= 3.6 sec
and its not exsang'd
and we have exactly 2 cp
change the color of the text
and then I basically just made the same condition for 1-6 cp, on slice and rupture
and called it a day
its a little annoying to set up but way less work than maintaining custom code for it when its so "easy" to do with conditions
stoic needle
ahhh i see you just made a condition for every possible value of the pandemic window
balmy condor
yeah
frozen echo
i got eeet in just 3 runs
balmy condor
legendary drops are close to 100% drop rate from torg
frozen echo
ahh
balmy condor
very rarely do I hear people having to do more than 1 run
frozen echo
thought it'd take a lil more
lone junco
What would the mythic patch have to do to get sin back up closer to the top for ST?
balmy condor
15% aura buff would put it like 150-200 behind sub
iirc
that would probably make it a good single target option
lone junco
Weird times.
balmy condor
sweet pebble
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
steep badger
i'd take 150-200 behind sub any day. would argue that would be even
would likely lose but i'd argue it. just being half a second off or a small screw up in their rotation would make up the dif, not to mention our bleeds/poisons not tickling anymore during downtimes
balmy condor
nah, you're pretty close
sin like 3-5% behind sub is probably a healthy place for it
steep badger
agreed, its more than adequate to outplay the metajumpers that parrot sub propaganda but don't go the distance to really learn the spec
guess i mean the sin shamers
im not bitter you're bitter
balmy condor
ye idk
everyone just wants to be more powerful than everyone else
and numbers are a very straightforward way to assert dominance
steep badger
sorta like polls?
balmy condor
my io is higher, my pvp rating is higher, my ilvl, parse, world rank, simdps
very easy to say "this number higher, therefore me better"
grim mason
does quantum device break stealth?
balmy condor
yes
grim mason
booooooo
steep badger
I'm lazy so i macro it w sblades, things magical
urban thistle
my io is higher, my pvp rating is higher, my ilvl, parse, world rank, simdps
If only any of these were true 
stoic needle
I would be very happy with 5% behind sub. I just want to be healthily above the tanks lol
urban thistle
maybe your ilvl, I had awful drops this week
balmy condor
180.75
urban thistle
lol
urban thistle
stuck lodge
Is there a guide that is endorsed by this disc?
balmy condor
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
stuck lodge
so any of them, okay. I was asking because their is often disparity between WH and IV.
balmy condor
yeah
seli and mystler have sort of different philosophies on guides
but the information should be pretty much the same
real valve
Hey guys question
balmy condor
hey fellworth answer
real valve
Is the hidden assassination artifact skin still obtainable?
I don’t see any rares in dalaran’s underbelly
real valve
Oh thanks
balmy condor
no problem
fleet whale
hidden assassin appearance is easy to get
just farm rares in the dalaran underbelly
(Legion Dalaran)
and if you don't see any rares up, they will be up soon, it's likely switched to pvp mode
and that turns off after like 15 mins
austere flame
So, I was Sin all throughout BFA. Usually top 5 in my raid and I really enjoyed it. For SL I switched ot sub and while I enjoy it I feel like outside of my burst window I just don't do enough DPS. For example, I do 6k usually in my burst window and then slowly go down to 2-2.5. I noticed that sin is 600 dps behind my sim (4k as sub, 3.2 as sin). Is sin just not comparable to sub right now or could it pull comparable numbers?
balmy condor
sin is really weak
its natural for sub to not do a lot outside of dances as well
sounds pretty normal to me
slowly going down to 2-2.5 is the part that doesn't seem normal
would assume there's some rotational issues there
austere flame
Alright, sounds good. Probably, yeah. Never played sub outside of SL/BFA prepatch. I try to use symbols for energy instead of the damage boost so thats probably what my problem is
Thanks for the answer! 😄
balmy condor
np
finite oxide
serrated bone spike really makes the downtime between burst windows much more fun imo
I can actually make a decision and/or push a button when for 10 years I'd normally be twiddling my thumbs
steep badger
between dances is just maintinence time, rup/snd. sbs is nice if low on combo points and dance is about to come back w symbols.
give you that quick max combo point maintinence finish before hopping back into melt phase for another few secs
dammit i miss sin
finite oxide
this is basically a sub-lite channel now lol
steep badger
ill refrain but bliz RLY needs to make us excited to play our spec again
strange python
venthyr or night fae for assas? what do u guys think?
calm dome
I do have Night Fae and I like the mobility of the sould shape, both for pvp and pve . Plus Spetis is a nice spell to have
worthy slate
gray fjord
Numerically speaking I'm pretty sure NF is slightly better for assassination, but feelycraft serrated bonespike is kinda nice. In PvP I imagine bonespike being a better choice if you're trying to decide just off of the damaging ability as sepsis doesn't hit that hard, they're both buffed by mastery, and bone spike is a ranged perma-bleed unless the target is dispelled/dies/healed to full
knotty bear
Soulshape very nice ngl
gray fjord
^ As a Night Bae this tru
tame flame
is assass the pvp spec?
gray fjord
It's kinda the nothing spec atm ^^;
balmy condor
your words hurt zera
knotty bear
tame flame
lol so sub is pvp?