I would start with some of the guides, they’ll cover the basics and are written by some great people
#assassination
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
Pick your favorite
fleet whale
so i just did the quickest math ever, using simc's sim dps for assassin at 184 ilvl
even with a 15% buff, it would still be 200 dps below sub's sim lol
balmy condor
Yup
fleet whale
some good news though, i got a 171 recup conduit from a WQ
steep badger
gear stats tho, did u swap gear too or just a ballpark sim
fleet whale
i used the sim from simc
this ranking here, and just buffed sin's dps by 15% using a calculator
balmy condor
Stats don’t change really with an aura boost
fleet whale
targeted buffs could however
but aura buffs don't
considering how low sin is, i think it will get buffed along with Havoc and the two warrior specs
steep badger
im thinking they'll be lazy and do a 5% overall dmg buff and be like YUP FIXED IT, NEXT
better than nothing but can't see bliz going much more without other classes being like ZOMG
but if they did - Sub community reaction "zomg wtf they were fine now they're OP they just need to L2P" - Outlaw reaction "lel ok"
low girder
i don't think either community would do that outside the few really dumb people
sin is a meme for a reason rn
steep badger
maybe im just jaded
low girder
more than anything i don't see them doing too much because already have 2 strong specs
steep badger
the dumb ones tend to be the loudest
low girder
and they rarely spend time on making all 3 on any pure dps good
they'll prolly just shore up the difference a bit
steep badger
think bc sin was always the darling rogue spec, seemed to always get taken care of no matter the expac
hope so
feel dirty every time i use shadowdance
low girder
i'm hoping you get more than a 5% slapped on, i never like seeing people think they can't play a spec they like
that included sub in bfa
steep badger
agreed
it needs a 10% and some ability tuning minimum to be close I feel, 15 would be close but that would be an outrageous expectation of bliz.
low girder
10% would probably put it at least midpack and that'd be fine. the M+ stuff is more mechanical and system interaction imo and i think that's out of the scope of any hotfixes. maybe in 9.1 
chilly cosmos
So we should all respec to sub to keep up with the dps lol
dapper cairn
so with out causing a argument are assassination rogue that much worse off than Sub. Im playing a Sub rogue now but finding it tough with all the dancing we have to do an was thinking of switching just looking for ideas of what to expect
knotty bear
expect to lose at least 15% dps in single target and more in aoe 🙂
chilly cosmos
I will switch to sub, I play sin for years
Sins are really at the bottom of the list in dps charts
balmy condor
sin is pretty rough atm
low girder
it's pretty significant yeah. like they said, around 15% in ST. if you absolutely love sin and/or hate sub/outlaw though i would at least wait until after heroic week for tuning before you commit
just to see what kind of buffs/nerfs happen
dapper cairn
ok thanks ill play the wait an see game an work more on my dancing for now LOL
low girder
not likely for sin to overtake either spec but at least maybe the difference won't be so significant
prime schooner
If i make celerity r1 today will i get enough soul ashes for making finality r1 this reset?
balmy condor
you can't make finality this reset
but if it drops from you the first day of raid, and you ran your torgs for the week next week
then yes, you'll be able to craft a r1 finality
pliant apex
whisp, see any hope for sin yet?
pliant apex
nailed sub rotation, but tbh i hate it so mcuh thinking of just re rolling class to ret
limber dagger
guys im a bit confused about the opener, do i use garrote twice in a row with subterfuge to get a longer buffed garrote?
limber dagger
whys that?
balmy condor
the extra pandemic time isn't worth casting something else instead
limber dagger
so my opener would look something like: garrote > SnD > Cov > Mut > Rup > Shiv vendetta and then vanish garrote when the garrote falls off? do i not use an ambush or something?
balmy condor
gar mut snd
and then either a mut rup, or cov rup
into vendetta (sepsis here), shiv
limber dagger
why only a low CP rup for vendetta?
isnt my goal to get as many envenoms into the vendetta window as possible?
balmy condor
not really
the idea of an opener is to get your cooldowns out so they can all start coming back, while doing as high burst as possible
limber dagger
that makes sense, lst time i played rogue was back in legion, is there still the pandemic window where i reapply garrote on something like 5 sec and rupture on 9? maybe i have the numbers wrong
plain thistle
even weaker 🙂
limber dagger
huh?
dense cedar
no echoing and not shrouded suffocation from bfa
vital moss
Even weaker in M+ than raids. And we are weak in raids.
plain thistle
right now, we are behind in single target and even weaker for AoE and mythic plus
dense cedar
so sin aoe is back to putting up like 3 dots and then proceeding to cry
plain thistle
that could, probably, be fixed with good AoE conduits. But the ones we have right now are so underwhelming
plain thistle
how is sub looking for m+?
good, a little behind outlaw but super viable
brisk flicker
Hope sub gets nerfed.
limber dagger
i only played it a bit while leveling but the new AoE finisher felt kinda weak to me
brisk flicker
I decided to sim myself as sub and... it's upsetting that this is how I break 4k.
But don't mind me, I'll just cry in this spec
plain thistle
balmy condor
feels sin man
balmy condor
i only played it a bit while leveling but the new AoE finisher felt kinda weak t...
subs aoe finisher is pretty good at rank 2
limber dagger
doesnt it kinda require me to have the crit lego so i can open with all the enemies having find the weakness?
balmy condor
nah
knotty bear
symbols makes first shuri crit
balmy condor
not even the best aoe lego
limber dagger
thanks for the insight 🙂
dense cedar
the one silver lining of everyone who played sin going to sub is
now all the very bad questions happen in there
dense cedar
no longer do we have to explain how seal fate works with FoK
balmy condor
we had to do that yesterday
dense cedar
oh..
plain thistle
yup, happened a couple day ago too
main wharf
any sinners in the chat?
plain thistle
no, fake red name here
balmy condor
I wish I was a real sin player
balmy condor
sin will overtake as always
elaborate, I dare you
balmy condor
get out of my channel
main wharf
my channel
graceful mirage
gatekeeping specs
balmy condor
no longer allowed here
balmy condor
banished from these lands
main wharf
TRUE
balmy condor
compared to sub?
main wharf
always talking about their "deadly plagues and poison"
main wharf
sub is gonna carry me to my vicious spider mount
fleet whale
i'm just running subter as assassin basically at all times. MA (Talent) just feels crap
manic thicket
I checked pinned but i wanna make sure, kyrian bis?
manic thicket
guess i'll just go kyrian then
true lintel
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
dense cedar
Is the 1 bonus energy from venemous wounds on a crit a tooltip error?
dense cedar
yeah that's waht im talking bout
has to be tooltip error
it'd make the bonus of it worse than old venom rush
nova viper
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
sick bridge
How's sin comparing to Outlaw aoe wise so far?
sick bridge
I'm mainly going to be focusing on mythic plus this xpac so was curious.
balmy condor
yeah, play anything except sin
lunar whale
if i were to swap kyrian or NF whats the catch up like
tacit night
i'm just running subter as assassin basically at all times. MA (Talent) just fee...
I agree; which tier 1 are you using?
tacit night
nice, sounds about right
low girder
if i were to swap kyrian or NF whats the catch up like
you can farm the renown back up with m0s/random heroics/callings and such, but any sanctum upgrades are gone, along with your anima
lunar whale
i dont have any sanctum upgrades atm
swapped ally a few days ago and have been to busy to farm anything lmao
rustic juniper
rolling sin in my heroic run this week but what about m+? Outlaw or sub for high keys?
grim mason
is sub even in meta for M+
balmy condor
yes
swift sky
applying find weakness from symbols shuriken?
balmy condor
yep
swift sky
or you could skip symbols if you have ma
grim mason
SS>SnD>Sym>Shruk>BP?
balmy condor
yup
grim mason
then shruk-bp till ur blue right
grim mason
hmm
grim mason
booo bad Whispyr bad
stoic needle
Damn, I don't use sectech enough
hybrid crystal
assassination so dead that the assassination discord is now also for subtlety discussion
grim mason
that in mythic?
balmy condor
ye
swift sky
yea PE is nice but idk i feel like it loses a bit of value if you run MA and save symbols for bigger packs
balmy condor
I'm not using a lego
swift sky
fair then yea PE all the way
balmy condor
waiting for finality :P
low girder
waiting for mythic week tuning 
balmy condor
T R U E
stoic needle
Please god
low girder
not leggos, specs
calm verge
is assassination going to get a buff?
swift sky
that’s a possibility
low girder
so i'm waiting
swift sky
hoping for sin buffs
low girder
will? probably.
grim mason
what server do youplay on Whyspr
balmy condor
a52
calm verge
stormrage ftw
grim mason
?
swift sky
watch sin get hit with just a raw % increase
balmy condor
probably one of the most expensive NA servers
grim mason
14k for enchanted leather on my server
balmy condor
10% seems reasonable
low girder
and not a chasm
balmy condor
15% would be pog
stoic needle
Will we only get an aura buff or will we see any kind of mechanics change?
low girder
more than likely just an aura buff
swift sky
what’s your guys opinion if they brought back shrouded suff
maybe a talent option
last row
low girder
mechanical changes are generally reserved for .x patches
sweet rampart
Will the big tuning changes be announced monday? Day before reset? Or the day of?
drifting cloud
day before usually
low girder
yeah usually monday night-ish on NA
drifting cloud
maybe even 2 days
stoic needle
mechanical changes are generally reserved for .x patches
So with a new raid tier?
stoic needle
Gotcha
low girder
although the way they've done things recently the raid can be pretty delayed from the patch itself
sometimes
sweet rampart
Is night fae really good for sin at high renown too?
low girder
what’s your guys opinion if they brought back shrouded suff
depends. they couldn't just do that because subterfuge and MA are already competitive, legendary notwithstanding. they'd have to rework the rest of that row
i'm not necessarily opposed to it coming back, but in general i don't like sin being super vanish reliant. which, granted with MA coming back as a leggo, and how Count the Odds works for outlaw, all 3 can be reliant now.
sweet rampart
I want sin to get buffs, but sin was dominant for a very long chunk of bfa. I would love for sub to remain the top spec for awhile.
swift sky
guaranteed buffs with higher ilvl sounds really nice
low girder
Is night fae really good for sin at high renown too?
they're all really close. venthyr mostly struggles because things die too quickly atm. in raid/higher M+ it'll be just fine.
alternatively they could just let it proc the haste if the target dies
which might happen, might not
lean zodiac
if im venthyr when do i use my ability during opener? didnt see it on the ravenholdt rotation
balmy condor
right after vendetta
strange python
Any news on some assassin buffs?
stoic needle
alternatively they could just let it proc the haste if the target dies
It already does
kind tulip
I love you all. I am definitely a handsome rogue player just like you.
balmy condor
I wish I was a pretty boy sometimes 
low girder
It already does
I was told it doesn't.
stoic needle
I'm venthyr. If flagellation expires before you reactivate it, you don't get a buff. If it dies, you do
calm dome
Whispyr, thanks again for all the informations you share in this topic. Greatly appreciated
low girder
Ah
strange python
wowww vent sub sucks in arena haha
gonna try picking up the mythic haste gear and try sin with the vent haste stuff
drifting cosmos
Imagine start playing sub again after 7.2.5
solar latch
whats the /bis/ raid spec
kind tulip
Friendship
solar latch
i still got my funny haste build equipped from bfa
balmy condor
sub/outlaw are both good
solar latch
a build which i grinded very hard for and only got to use it for a couple weeks before prepatch
charred copper
What are the chances assassination will get a buff?
balmy condor
somewhere between 0 and 100%
balmy condor
atm, yeah pretty much
charred copper
@balmy condor can sub do well in mythic +?
outer lodge
yes
balmy condor
yes, outlaw is fine too
charred copper
my friend doesnt like outlaw, unfortunately
He says its "just a faster warrior"
lol
balmy condor
:) a man of culture
sand otter
supple compass
I actually think sin is the most fun of the three in aoe
Think 2t and up sin has a lot of skill expression, more than people typically think
marble hemlock
mhyup
well, you can just press random buttons and still do fine. but target selection with bleeds, keeping high uptimes and not oversustaining energy etc. are all small parts of it and doing those well feels great and is also beneficial to the grp
jagged sierra
Quick question, is there a viable bleed build for shadowlands atm?
fleet whale
no, bleed/exsang is dead
strange python
Assa is ded i hope they balance it out and make the spec viable again
bleak fractal
I have faith in an ass buff
plain onyx
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
dusk lodge
Does doomblade’s 8 sec mut bleed damage not increase envenom by 5%???
dusk lodge
Isn’t it supposed to increase envenmom?
I heard that serrated bone spike’s bleed doesn’t increase envenom. I didn’t know that. Because it didn’t say so..
dusk lodge
With doomblade legendary, i sure thought because bone spike is a bleed damage, it would increase envenmon by 5%
warm parcel
Id imagine spike isnt counted in
balmy condor
Spike is not counted
But I think the doomblade dot itself is
I’m not entirely sure
warm parcel
Doomblade is
balmy condor
Okay
warm parcel
Thats the whole point of the old tier set
balmy condor
Cool
warm parcel
Would also have to test it as afaik it doesnt show up in spelldata which dots buff it
balmy condor
I’m 99% sure it’s doomblade, garrote, rupture, CT, and that’s it
warm parcel
Yes thats how it should be
balmy condor
Aka, doomblade + actual rogue dots
warm parcel
But I just cant say for sure as I dont have the lego
balmy condor
Yeah, I’m just parroting what we saw in beta
plain onyx
more enjoyable than any of the other specs tbh.
grim cloak
Am I supposed to get rekt in Mort'egar layer 3 with 176 ilvl or do I just need to gitgud ? The teleport packs feels so strong
grizzled jay
I cleared it easily until Maw of the Maw kicked my ass. On both Sub and Outlaw
Should be fine on Sin
balmy condor
Lot of people have been struggling but it’s not bad if you take it slow
fleet whale
so if CT buffs envenom with doomblade
fleet whale
lol
grizzled jay
Take it slow and get as many powers as you can. Don't rush
fleet whale
would feel like ass cheeks though
balmy condor
Also not worth 
fleet whale
yeah, would rather just use zoldyck or dashing scoundrel
much easier to use, much more versatile
balmy condor
You’re losing more than 5% of envenoms from using CT, and CT < PB
So it’s actually just bad
grim cloak
Ok i'll keep on trying, thanks both of you 👍
calm verge
Is assassination as bad as what people are saying?
calm verge
Just got a potency conduit ilvl 184 for assassination and i want to switch so bad
fleet whale
and conduit's are like
not as important as you think lol, you don't gain that much dps with conduit ilvl
balmy condor
Is assassination as bad as what people are saying?
Yes
fleet whale
i did top damage all throughout a mythic Halls run though, so yes a skilled sin rogue
will beat lesser skilled players... but an even average outlaw rogue
will crush sin
calm verge
😦
rough valley
:/
balmy condor
Well even in mythic atm, the packs are dying fairly quick
Helps subterfuge a lot
When you’re smashing a dungeon in 20 minutes, where as normally might take you 35 or even 40
That’s gonna hurt
balmy condor
Ye
calm verge
i just wanna play my spec again and not feel like im doing nothing
fleet whale
pvp season officially starts on reset right
cause if it does, it's only 200 conquest for a 184 lethal poisons, may do a few arenas
just to get it
balmy condor
Yeah should start on reset
calm verge
thats the conduit i got
pliant dust
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
warm void
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
plain onyx
Any helpful macro I could do like combine two spells together so I can keep up with my rotation.. since nothing is on the RH guide ? Thanks.
balmy condor
Vendetta and trinket
Anything else is kinda really unnecessary and weird imo
Some people macro ambush and mutilate together
But that’s pretty cringe if you ask me
placid dawn
I have a mouse over macro for shadowstep
But it can get you killed sometimes when bosses have shit hitboxes
random fossil
hey guys just wondering if legs is the go-to choice slot for zoldyck insignia
sick scarab
guys about rotations.. i see 3 guides each wiht different rotation..
it is not better to use vendetta wiht full dots on ?
max dots on i mean
sick scarab
Any helpful macro I could do like combine two spells together so I can keep up w...
i did macro vendetta sepsis and trinket
vendetta is out of gcd so macro works even if vendetta is on cd and you want use sepsis
i did
/cast Vendetta
/cast Sepsis
/use 13
plain onyx
Thanks, one question: what does the /use "13" stand for?
plain onyx
ahhh okay
strange python
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
hollow barn
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
maiden halo
Odds are outlaw will be significantly better for M+ no matter what buffs come out for sin right? Outlaw seems to always be better in AoE
And sin will probably be buffed a week Wednesday
dense cedar
they should split Toxic Blade and shiv
amber quail
at this point i cannot imagine what to do to buff SIN whitout make all unbalanced for the future
real bay
you just buff the numbers, some spells more than others
amber quail
yes, i said this in september: need to buff base numbers or integrate ex azerite in talents(ex.:subterfuge with SS and EB with middle at 100)
but also energy needs a "very little" buff about +1(+2 inn my dreams)
and <VENDETTA> must be a self buff not a target debuff
pearl canyon
has anybody noticed the bug with our alacrity?
dry atlas
Yeah no
pearl canyon
it does not interact with crimson tempest at all
dry atlas
Vendetta being on a target is fine
dense cedar
no way they ever change how Vendetta works lol
pearl canyon
even if u do a 5 cp crimson you will not get an alacrity stack
amber quail
lol
amber quail
now is weak
real bay
if sin wasnt this bad
low girder
even if u do a 5 cp crimson you will not get an alacrity stack
that's interesting. i'll test in a few.
dense cedar
Vendetta as a debuff is way too much a part of the identity
dense cedar
Whole meme of Sin is that you're meant to be a big target killer
dry atlas
If they made it personal you'd lose the stealth cuck 100%
amber quail
and "sin identity" mught suppose that dmg outpt is not MLEE AUTOATTACK as primary
or not?
dry atlas
Have you even played the spec for more than a month
dense cedar
white damage as main isn't a consistent part of sin
amber quail
ok, link me you DETAILS plz, maybe my sin is too low yet to see right numbers
dense cedar
...
amber quail
i really appreciate a dummy details to compare
dense cedar
its start of the expansion after a level and stat squish
we don't have the numbers to make it even play like it normally does
plus they gave snd back
which changes it dramatically
amber quail
with my shtty gear and some luky crit on envenom i can see env-melee
but usually melle is the king
low girder
even if u do a 5 cp crimson you will not get an alacrity stack
yeah behaves the same for me. not sure if it's a known bug, i'll mention it to whispyr later today after i sleep.
dense cedar
like 2 expansion back you wouldn't even really notice white damage
amber quail
link me plz you actual details on a dummy plz
personal link is appreciated
don't worry
dry atlas
Why would you hit a dummy when you can just sim
low girder
or actually
pearl canyon
@low girder thanks, i guess i have to make a US forum post about it(luckily i have an active sub there) as for it to not befall the same what happened to balance druid's pvp talent for regrowth in 8.1, which was only fixed in later 8.3 lol
low girder
@vestal wren is crimson tempest not proccing a stack of alacrity a known thing? i just tested as well after @pearl canyon mentioned it and it behaves the same for me.
amber quail
my stats sux and gearr is only 160, surrely your is better and you play better than me...but plz link me your details where melee is not top 2/3 rank dmg
vestal wren
interessting, not sure if thats intended
low girder
yeah it'd be worth posting about it, would be an easy fix at least
yeah, kinda seems like an oversight
dry atlas
160 ilvl complaining about being weak lol
vestal wren
160 isn't super high
dense cedar
@amber quail ur not really understanding what im getting at
waht im saying is that the way that sin is meant to feel doesn't really function very well in the current landscape of the game
dense cedar
Level squish, plus stats squish and the reintroduction of snd
of course white damage is gonan be huge
you're spending like half the time not pressing a significant button
low girder
yeah i imagine something happened in there. we had it in legion in combo with CT and i would imagine it worked properly there. but that kind of thing is far enough back i can't remember for sure.
dense cedar
like i said go 2 expansion back when stats were very high
and white damage is basically a trinket
low girder
i mean they also specifically buffed white dmg a ton in bfa
low girder
i was reading. in general the stats aren't going to change melee dmg being significantly higher than any other point
and we're not the only class like that
dense cedar
not anymore
low girder
all the melees have way higher white dmg now than pre-bfa
dense cedar
white dmg buff plus snd
kinda cements it
but idk if that's a good enough reason to think debuff vendetta is bad design
pulsar palm
Any assassination rogue managed to clear Torghast Layer 3 Fractured Chambers at around ilvl 160? The assassin that appears when out of combat kills me fast if i dont have evasion available (especially in levels 4-5 where his health is more)
low girder
depends on context. there are certainly places where it can be a pain point (looking at you raden) but it's also a defining characteristic of sin at this point. there aren't many major CDs that are debuff based atm. and if designed around so that sin can still have its niche, i don't think it's a big issue.
sin is undertuned, so people grasp at things to improve. more than anything, at least in a raid context, it just needs numbers
aoe/m+ situations are much more arguable
dense cedar
I guess maybe its personal attachment to the spec
I can see changing many things
changing vendetta to self buff just seems like a betrayal
dry atlas
They would have to rename it then too
dry atlas
Maybe give sin a talent for 2 vendettas like sub with dances
low girder
They would have to rename it then too
hunger for blood?
dry atlas
Oh that's a thing already
dense cedar
can just make a broken talent maybe
"When you cast vendetta, cause a weaker vendetta to apply to up to 2 extra targets within 8 yards"
pearl canyon
i would honestly like to make our envenom refresh snd like it was all the way back then
dry atlas
It's so disgusting to me that you're weaker now than you were before the patch, really fucks the whole idea of progression
quaint dragon
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
hasty siren
there was a video awhile back with the mut/ambush macro...can someone link that again please...or did it get hotpatched?
fickle agate
#showtooltip Ambush
/startattack
/cast [modifier:alt] Ambush; Mutilate;
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
stable urchin
So on Monday we will know if amazing ass rouge get buffs?
dry atlas
Why monday
dense cedar
Its already monday
calm dome
@pulsar palm yes my man . Easiest way to clearing Thorgast 3 is to run with a Frost Mage . You dot everybody, you CC , the mage slow them and you both Dps . A lot of kitting to make sure you do it properly
mystic fractal
Or just run torghast as subtlety 
prime monolith
is the spec any viable currently
tender folio
Sucks that we have to play sub until assa gets some love QQ
plain thistle
So on Monday we will know if amazing ass rouge get buffs?
probably not
only after heroic week
thats my guess
stable urchin
Okay oyh
stable urchin
only after heroic week
Heroic week will be on?
plain thistle
Heroic week will be on?
2 days from now 🙂
nerf/buffs maybe next week (12/15)
it is possible we see nerfs/buffs before heroic week. but usually they wait to get more real data from raiding
vestal wren
Sucks that we have to play sub until assa gets some love QQ
like it sucked for sub for 2 xpacs now ^^
i am not saying its good that sin is tuned very low, i just think assassination was now to long the only played raid spec
jagged axle
damn
vestal wren
i still hope that blizz buffs assassination
jagged axle
I think I'm too deep into outlaw to switch even if they buff
unless it's omega significant I don't see it worth to farm for a new legendary and daggers/gear etc
pallid breach
Just had an argument with a guildie. What is better rn for aoe, poison bomb or crimson tempest?
main forge
crimson tempest from what I have heard... but i run poison bomb...
verbal stirrup
and do you spam crimson tempest or just use it for the bleed
main forge
I just use it for the bleed when I use it... energy is too low to spam it really
verbal stirrup
sub/outlaw feel so clunky i hate i have to be forced to play them
main forge
PB isn't as good due to RNG of it and mobs having to sit in it... if you kite... or they are a caster and not packed up
verbal stirrup
im going to do my best to test assa in m+
but its so undertuned that its way easier for other classes/specs to outdps you with less effort
main forge
Same... I was a fan of combat, but not so much outlaw... sub... I can't wrap my head around with the rotation...
verbal stirrup
it would be sad if i would have to wait for 1 year for the stats to jump
main forge
The only reason they might keep it... is to get more people playing sub.... but outlaw has been popular for a long time now.... its just odd
mossy sable
sub/outlaw feel so clunky i hate i have to be forced to play them
I know that feeling, that's how I felt raiding in BFA but I main outlaw
Always being told to just play Sin for better dps
Now I actually miss Sin a bit, still prefer it over sub sometimes
verbal stirrup
i guess its perfect for you right now 😄 but i would be re rolling probably
mossy sable
Yeah it feels good to have a place but I miss Sin being a option
I've always had issues with how slow it feels
verbal stirrup
im a fan of the rogue in general, but if sin is totally out of the picture RN, its so bad that is like having 2 specs to choose from 😄 like a DH
mossy sable
Yeah I get the feeling
Same in BFA
Just your spec was flavor of the month basically
I'm sure sin will come up at some point
Law will get hit hard, or sub
And in 10.0 something else will be broken lol
real bay
i'd be pretty surprised if sin didnt get buffed before mythic and after WF race if its still bad
like its BAD
frigid kestrel
I’m really hoping we get some tuning after week 1 is finished.
balmy condor
We all are :)
lament dove
this waiting for buff/nerf week is so depressing tbh
balmy condor
It’s what you do when you’re weak
Sub had this conversation every tier for the entire last expansion
frigid kestrel
^
lament dove
yes, and I'm not only concerned about sin, I'm also concerned about sub...
frigid kestrel
Yo if they make the ol swap that’ll be shitty af 😂🤣😂
lament dove
feels like I'm waiting to know which of my 2 specs will be worse
balmy condor
Sub will stay better
I think the chance that sub gets nerfed under sin is crazy crazy low
frigid kestrel
Ye, I’d be happy to be just middle of the pack. Give me at least that and I’ll be back to sin in a second
When I seen that we were directly above tanks in dps, it opened up my eyes to no longer be stubborn and change to the sub side.
tender folio
Well Sub aint that bad , a bit of change is always good but eh . Seems this exp Sub will dominate
balmy condor
Nope, dropping fine
serene basin
cool, was curious about it
tender folio
farming master assassin atm , still nothing QQ
balmy condor
Which ones being stubborn for you?
ember mural
has zoldyck been available yet or still waiting?
balmy condor
Next week
grizzled jay
can't wait for Sin to be buffed so I can just slot my Lethal Poisons conduit right in
frigid kestrel
has zoldyck been available yet or still waiting?
Drops off Council boss from raid, %100 Drop rate I believe.
balmy condor
Zoldyck is from torg
jovial thorn
Is it just me being bad at Sin, or is it not just marginally worse than sub? I feel like my damage is way worse in dungeon with assassination compared to subtlety
Obviously with Sub being "Best", I'd assume some difference, but it seems bigger than I'd expect xD
balmy condor
It’s 15% worse single target, 30% in aoe
The most spread from “best” to “worst” spec since maybe cata
jovial thorn
Yea ok. So it's more a combination than simply me being bad haha :D
Was sure I was doing something entirely wrong when my damage dropped so harshly when changing, thanks! 🙂
balmy condor
No problem
sour citrus
Peeps, Oakheart vestment for Sin Rogue right?
frigid kestrel
Zoldyck is from torg
Shit your right im thinking of Dashing
balmy condor
Peeps, Oakheart vestment for Sin Rogue right?
The what now
balmy condor
Because we have 6 torg wings, 2 every week, and 4 have already been available
sour citrus
The what now
I have a choice between Oakheart Vestment or Tunic for quest reward
balmy condor
Oh, doesn’t matter
You replace all the quest rewards with dungeon gear
So pick whatever your heart desires
sour citrus
Crit/haste or Vers/,mastery stat
frigid kestrel
Ye, but we can down level three now, i thought it was the same chance as Akaari, and the combat one in level 3.
balmy condor
Take the haste I guess
jovial thorn
Drops from "Coldheart Interstitia", one of the wings that hasn't been there
balmy condor
Yeah, the legendaries are on specific wings
sour citrus
Take the haste I guess
thought so too, just needed a nudge :p
balmy condor
100% drop rates from those wings
frigid kestrel
Yeah, the legendaries are on specific wings
Didnt know that
balmy condor
So we got blunder the first, then everyone got rotten or whatever, and doomblade
Then next week we get zoldyck
frigid kestrel
so Akaari will be the last one we get im assuming
jovial thorn
Wasn't Akaari an artifact trait in Legion? 😛
balmy condor
Yes
Finality was also influenced by a trait
As was blunderbus
All of rogue’s legendaries are either old legendaries, legion effects from the weapon, or old tier sets
jovial thorn
Yea ok, recognised a few definitely, no clue what was on the Outlaw weapon though, I avoided that like the plague haha
Happy Master Assassin is back tho, was one of my fav. legendaries to play with
proper sage
@balmy condor
balmy condor
stable urchin
Ohh my legendary incoming 💕
balmy condor
yeah, its one of the best single target legos
just drops off really hard in aoe
cause no muts
arctic cove
yeah tru
i alrdy got MA but im im hoping i can start crafting SIN legendarys soon if we get a buff
if not i just have to go all in on sub idk
delicate bone
Oh shit! @balmy condor you’re green 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼 congrats!!!
gleaming eagle
drop rupture from sub
balmy condor
Thank you :)
gleaming eagle
or at least make rupture on sin better
dots are our specialty
not sure why sub get rupture too
proper sage
More like delete subtlety am I right
rocky ruin
just asking for my curiosity. What should be buff for sin in the end? Dot dmg? Poison Dmg? Dmg overall?
balmy condor
there's a bunch of ideas of what should happen to sin
the most likely thing to happen is an aura buff
and they just leave it
serene basin
lmao
if they do a decent scaling buff, we shall be fine
tho im very reluctant about going sub
:/
rocky ruin
yea me too. i already switch to sub, but still i dont enjoy it at all. Even outlaw is more fun than sub.
for my question want to know what could change for us this week or next. But if it only aura buff then fine be me
but 5% or more than that?
pure ingot
I believe that an aura buff + envenom with the old cut to the chase talent baked in can be good for assa
grizzled jay
I believe Cut to the Chase should never be added
balmy condor
I'm not a fan of cut to the chase either
urban marsh
don't like cut to the chase either, just remove snd 😛
rocky ruin
i dont think they gonna change any abilities at this point. Only buffs
grizzled jay
Might as well just delete SnD and have Assassination attack 50% faster baseline if Cut to the Chase is in the game
balmy condor
I like snd personally
grizzled jay
As do I
grizzled jay
Nothing like making one of the lowest APM specs in the game even lower
balmy condor
well cut wouldn't actually change the APM
urban marsh
maybe as they added snd back, they should also go back and remove garrote from rotation like it was pre-legion
balmy condor
that would make subterfuge worthless, and hurt our energy regen
pearl canyon
how come ure low on apm rofl
balmy condor
REALLY don't like that one
pearl canyon
im like a resident sleeper when playing my aff pve
meanwhile i spam buttons like crazy on my sin
m+ perspective
urban marsh
well, about energy regen, they could slap a 14 energy regen on rupture, and subterfuge wouls still be good
rocky ruin
i dont think energy reg is a problem at this point. Its our abilities hit like a noodle and not a like a truck
balmy condor
if garrote doesn't grant energy, good chance you would see MA in dungeons
depends how they change garrote/rupture damage
but either way
I think the speed is fine with blindside, and by the time its bad, we'll have enough speed anyway
m+ is problematic for CP regen, not energy
1 cp foks in aoe is just pain
rocky ruin
Do we have to wait until myhtic open for tuning or starting this week?
urban marsh
i like the idea of blindside, but the bad thing is that it's useless in aoe
balmy condor
ambush isn't good enough to justify blindside going forward
when our haste goes up and EP gets a higher uptime
even in single target
urban marsh
don't know why blizz doesnt change the talents a bit, its been like this for ages now
😦
rocky ruin
why change when it works atm
balmy condor
talents are definitely a pain point for sin
its "working" but its really not doing too well
rocky ruin
but @balmy condor you think there changing something at the end or not?
balmy condor
I'm putting my money on a 10% aura buff and the leave sin alone for the rest of the tier
rocky ruin
do you guys think we gonna get a tuning point? They could say 2 of 3 specs worked for the class
dense cedar
idk why they don't make venom rush just do what it used to do
then again
it'd have to move rows probably then
rocky ruin
well they removed a dh talent in the beta tuning cause no one used it. I thought the same thing would happen to venom rush
i dont think anyone would use it
mighty jay
everyone is going sub in pvp, so they should remove others spec ?
mighty jay
some guys here will go assa for pvp ?
mighty jay
spec discussion include pvp in my opinion :p
mighty jay
they only speak about sub :p but right no problem 🙂
rocky ruin
@mighty jay i think you gave yourself the answer
calm dome
@mighty jay I am sin all day everyday , same in Pvp, best attitude to do is play as support, not engage on your own , wait for 2v1 , can work well if you are with an other rogue ( sin ) , or a mage, you can be usefull making ennemies healers crazy with dots and bleed, and focus flag older in warsong for exemple
twin prism
Should I craft Mark of the master assassin this week?
calm dome
no
balmy condor
wait for zoldyck next week
twin prism
Alright.. and then which piece
balmy condor
legs
calm dome
best in every situation pve /m+ / pvp
balmy condor
its not the best in every situation
twin prism
after zoldyck?
balmy condor
but it is probably the best all around
calm dome
best overall*
balmy condor
MA/Doomblade are pretty good in pvp
doomblade/dashing are good single target
zoldyck/ma in m+
zoldyck is close in single target, and its okay in pvp
bold ice
how is assass compared to sub currently
balmy condor
awful
bold ice
😦
shrewd night
stoic needle
if I'm using MFD to help with setting up dots, should I use it immediately after SND in the opener? so garotte > mut > snd > mfd> rup > into envenoms? or would I use it to get a 5cp SnD up early?
or should i save it for the first envenom?
this is with the MA legendary
balmy condor
for single target?
stoic needle
yeah
and maybe for aoe too lol
also, if we get a numbers buff will these rotations change at all? like if rupture and garotte suddenly are a decent part of our damage
dense cedar
They should buff
balmy condor
anyway
stoic needle
ic
balmy condor
for single target, you'd mfd into slice precombat
stoic needle
Ma into SND?
balmy condor
that and you don't need to get snd going
then if you're running subt, you would go gar mut rup mut
dense cedar
@balmy condor thoughts on my balance suggestion?
balmy condor
dense cedar
I think it'd be swell
balmy condor
sin is kinda weird cause the opener changes so often
I actually found a 0.5% gain, but it was very specific to MA/sepsis interactions
stoic needle
yeah this is the most opening rotations I've had to learn at once
it's kinda fun lol
dense cedar
FoK should have double the chance of applying your poison
balmy condor
and honestly, I'm not sure its worth the effort going through and optimizing for like 3 different legendaries and blindside vs EP and subt vs nightstalker vs ma and covenants and stuff
stoic needle
is there ever a target # where you drop SND like sub does?
balmy condor
like that's a fkin mess
dense cedar
There we go
stoic needle
my snd uptime is just bad in general i'm working on it
balmy condor
especially with mfd, you can keep slice going between pulls and stuff for alacrity stacks
so you can just maintain on basically everything unless its OMEGA big
fleet whale
hey whisp congratulations on your promotion!
balmy condor
hey whisp congratulations on your promotion!
ty ty :)
dense cedar
damn
im kinda attached to that idea now
while their puddle is active they can't spawn another but mutile garrote's puddle dmg stacks
this sounds
broken 
balmy condor
I personally want pb to be a debuff on targets affected rather than a puddle
and then you can do whatever with the debuff
balmy condor
I'm personally fond of old wod sub multistrike
stoic needle
would it be too strong if PB was baseline
dense cedar
maybe on the same row with pb
balmy condor
so my idea
right
listen to this
pb, still random
but when it procs
it advances rupture/garrote by like 3 seconds
could make it work with CT as well for juicy aoe
stoic needle
you get 3 seconds of ticks instantly?
balmy condor
and just remove the instant damage part
dense cedar
oh Whispyr
balmy condor
you get energy, so it feels gud
dense cedar
you gave me a fucking terrible idea
stoic needle
i've said that sin needs its own version of the warlock malefic eruption thing or whatever it is
dense cedar
and makes your envenoms cast on a target inside of it
hit all targets inside of the pb
balmy condor
that sounds pretty gud
stoic needle
that does a % of your dot's remaining damage instantly
dense cedar
okay so
balmy condor
so the multistrike advanced tick thing
dense cedar
Crmson Tempets
balmy condor
really sick imo
quasi ledge
I mean, almost anything would be better than the current 50 row
hollow barn
Whispyr green 
dense cedar
Also revert Venom Rush to just give you 3 extra energy per VW bleed
fleet whale
i like the ideas, need to post them on the official forums though
dense cedar
No
fleet whale
tweet at them
fleet whale
idk how often blizz devs actually hang out in class discords.
And if the rumors about how they really feel about TCers is true... they may never check them lol
rapid star
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
fleet whale
i hope the winter veil tree will actually give stats this year
rather than just being a cosmetic item
spiral bough
Nothing is for sure until tuning comes out
pearl canyon
when do the tutings come usually
fleet whale
week after heroic comes out
fleet whale
and then occasionally blizz may do some scattered tuning here or there
but that's usually on specific interactions that they don't like
fleet whale
50/50 chance
spiral bough
yes
twin prism
shiet
spiral bough
Coldheart is out next week
fleet whale
is that confirmed
balmy condor
if they don't randomly make the order completely random
and they stick to "every wing once before the next rotation"
then zoldyck will be next week
twin prism
nice
balmy condor
so I give it like a 98% chance for zoldyck
plain onyx
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
fleet whale
dungeon slice
balmy condor
dungeonslice
strange python
ty
deft patio
what spec pvp leggo for assasin rogue?
balmy condor
I think the consensus is MA or doomblade
deft patio
oki
grim mason
wait why are you green @balmy condor o.0
balmy condor
I'm playing the poison spec
grim mason
lmao
knotty bear
Yo congrats on green name whispyr
balmy condor
thanks :)
grim mason
oooh it's a promo, so the color on the right is a hierarchy 0.o
balmy condor
yes lmao
grim mason
Grats @balmy condor 🙂 
proper venture
Does assa have a chance to beat sub in any way?
balmy condor
only depending on buffs
tardy steppe
i like assa more then sub
balmy condor
I guess its also sort of keeping up with sub in 2/3 target situations
but they both get stomped by outlaw in the same situations
tardy steppe
is assa good for raid progression?
balmy condor
not atm
knotty bear
isn't outlaw almost on-par with sub in ST
proper venture
Depends on how long the fight is i think
tardy steppe
if outlaw is just a little bit worse in ST then sub will outlaw be the raid spec?
vestal wren
its within ~40 dps in the pre raid profile if outlaw uses celerity and subtlety finality
what is likely the go-to option
balmy condor
outlaw seems very strong in raids atm
vestal wren
there is still the perception that outlaw is terrible in raid
so i don't think it will see a lot of play
floral shoal
Anyone know the Flagellation spell ID for the haste buff ?
balmy condor
Anyone know the Flagellation spell ID for the haste buff ?
345569 I think
floral shoal
Yeah 345569, idtip is great!
gleaming eagle
how would they buff sin though
stoic needle
cough a rework cough
vestal wren
how would they buff sin though
simle solution, just put a aurabuff to it
calm dome
Maybe we all dreaming about a buff but nothing will happen for us . Sin will stay the same for this whole season
north pewter
Yo, looking at wowhead, and it's suggesting taking blindside over elaborate planning. Did we start using ambush and I missed it?
balmy condor
aura buff is just a way to say "increase all damage"
each spec has a hidden passive that increases all of the abilities and such by X%
balmy condor
Yo, looking at wowhead, and it's suggesting taking blindside over elaborate plan...
blindside single target
calm dome
Whispyr, any official informations / sources about a possible buff coming anytime soon ?
north pewter
where do you fit in an ambush though
I hate this game. I feel like one of those washed up high school football superstars
"Back in my day, I was top of the charts"
balmy condor
where do you fit in an ambush though
use ambush on blindside procs, otherwise don't
balmy condor
np
north pewter
makes sense. the man is always answering questions lol
balmy condor
@drifting cloud thanks :)
strange python
Waiting eargerly for the raids to open so I can bring my sin. Would be great to be able to grap Zoldycks before that tho.
strange python
My goal is to be above the tanks in DPS. If I get lucky, I might also be above the healers :_D
@balmy condor that's the plan. Just not sure about the droprate & if I'm able to solo layer 3 :>
balmy condor
torg memories are 100% drop
strange python
truly? That is good news. Guild mates were not sure.
balmy condor
yup :)
strange python
torg memories are 100% drop
This really makes me happy, no need to grind torgheist. Thanks for letting me know. Hope you have a great day!
balmy condor
you too man 
subtle drift
@balmy condor congrats!
balmy condor
thank you :)
sharp kite
guys which is the best spec for raid ?
balmy condor
outlaw and sub are both good
sharp kite
thanks
uncut schooner
balmy condor
tyty 
deep badge
is nightfae the overall best convenant`?
serene basin
My goal is to be above the tanks in DPS. If I get lucky, I might also be above t...
i share your goals
outer lodge
Whispyr green! 
balmy condor
real bay
verbal mantle
swamp keeper 
gray fjord
valid sluice
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
outer lodge
Im simming at between 3400-3500 for a 5min ST fight. Interested to see how thats going to stack up compared to the others dps in my raid group next week 
outer lodge
thats with no legendary too, should get a nice little boost in dps with Zoldyck tuesday
summer horizon
watch coldheart not even be open next week
quasi scroll
do sharpening stones stack with poisons?
balmy condor
yes
summer jolt
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
supple compass
Who’s simming at 4K with sub without full boes and wep enchants
low girder
weird that that's the restriction and not "crafted a leggo"
balmy condor
Yeah
It definitely possible without boe’s
I actually did a sim, putting my gear to 184
And it barely got over 4k
knotty bear
3,924 for me without wep enchants
if i swap to stiletto, think i gain slightly too (simmed with deeper dag)
and i have 171 weps
so definitely do not need full boe
balmy condor
Who’s simming at 4K with sub without full boes and wep enchants
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8MjBHD61MrSGrYghR1ae6r here’s a sim with double celestial from a random guy
No legendary either
low girder
that's a coincidence