assassination

[marble hemlock]

didnt even have to stack it

[fleet whale]

most azerite traits

[steep badger]

wit?

[fleet whale]

are bandaids

[marble hemlock]

it just solved all the issues outlaw had in m+ with one trait

[steep badger]

yeah, where does sin get those bandaids, i'll take 2

[marble hemlock]

and then you can pla the game for 1-2 years and pretend that your class isnt misaligned and badly designed at its core until teh next expac comes around and you are confronted with the same lack of vision on how youre supposed to translate from a st spec to an aoe spec

so they just made bf essentially 100% uptime. nice.

great "fix"

[steep badger]

lazy

[marble hemlock]

yep

and before legendaries got nerfed, assa was in the same spot

we were back to spamming fok with dashing

for dps

atleast that had a higher maintenance than in bfa since you needed to maintain envenom on aoe

[steep badger]

wonder why they never explored making ct baseline, or what the findings were if so

[marble hemlock]

i mean it was back in mop/wod 🙂

ive complained about this a lot already, but not having aoe builders+finishers baseline is just dumb as fuck

and unbelievable that its still like this 3 expansions in

imagine if they made divine storm a talent instead of being baseline

[steep badger]

yeah, and toss in a more meaningful talent there to spice something up? instead of just beating us up in the tunings because our sub brothers were melting everything. One streamer compared it to the younger siblings getting the beating because the older brother was misbehaving. I think its deeper though, they just can't figure out how to fix it

[marble hemlock]

or if warlocks had to talent rain of fire

[steep badger]

oh god

they'd all reroll

[marble hemlock]

or eleshaman needing to talent earthquake, boomy starfall etc.

its just asinine that the spec that has its core mechanic be a combopoint>finisher mechanic, is the one with the least options in that regard. but its always been like this

member when we still had target-specific combopoints in mop, but paladins got holypower in wrath

took them 3 expansions to give us combo points on the rogue, not the target, when other classes had it for years

[steep badger]

lmao, the neglect feels were real

[marble hemlock]

and its the same now

[steep badger]

still are just different places

[marble hemlock]

just frustrating that youre a builder>finisher class and you dont have an aoe builder as outlaw, or aoe finisher that you dont have to talent as, well, sub outlaw and assa. atleast sub has one now, and lo and behold the spec feels interesting to play in aoe again

what a surprise

[steep badger]

amazing how that works right?

[marble hemlock]

meanwhile every other class in the game has aoe builders and aoe finishers

or rather, low and high dmg aoe abilities

[steep badger]

but pb!

[marble hemlock]

anyway, enough ranting

[steep badger]

(slightly sarcasm laced)

[marble hemlock]

lets just hope theres some ranged dps nerfs

so melee can atleast be considered viable

cause in the current state, theres no reason to bring melee for anything but interrupts or utility

certainly not on aoe, and not even on st

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[grim jay]

seli

what covenant will you pick?

[marble hemlock]

necro

[grim jay]

just curious

[marble hemlock]

for starters

might switch to fae at 34 for first strike if it hasnt been nerfed by then

[steep badger]

feels like it will be

its the only outlier

[grim jay]

any specific reason for going necro?

[marble hemlock]

lead by example

[steep badger]

I feel like necro's a strong pick only because they're all so close and in my eyes the easiest to maintain

least the ability

my opinion ofc

[marble hemlock]

its the most interactive covenant, it has group benefit, and its undersimming quite hard imo

[main warren]

spike is a fun button to press

[marble hemlock]

and will stay strong as it scales with prim stat and better gear

[grim jay]

I kinda find it hard to balance for me personally. I'm doing pvp at around 2.6k usually, I do PvP and raid semi-progress. this time it seems really fucked up to pick something for all of it. not a fan of having a second rogue

[marble hemlock]

the 350haste from grove invo will always stay 350 haste. good now, not as good later on probably

meanwhile 13% agi will always be good

[loud basin]

People are writing off everything but Kyrian but I think necro has a pretty high skill cap potential with the CC immune ability. And the defensives are gonna be big. But it seems everyone is fiending for anything bursty rn and calling it the best

[marble hemlock]

and SBS cooldown lines up very well with shiv/symbols cooldown

[steep badger]

Would love if they'd entertain adding serrated bonespike to the doomblade bleed buff

but god forbid they do some math

[marble hemlock]

you dont want that

[steep badger]

math?

[marble hemlock]

no

you dont want legendary powers being balanced around having a specific covenant

[steep badger]

ahhh gotcha

even so minor?

[marble hemlock]

like MA used to be for nightfae

with the sepsis vanish

[steep badger]

ahh solid example

[marble hemlock]

its much better to remove those synergies to be able to balance properly. its also more boring

but that way it can atleast be an alternative for all the covenants that arent the one that scales with it

if sbs worked with doomblade, youd have to balance it around that, and any non-necro would never look towards doomblade

[steep badger]

would just add to the balancing nightmare

[fleet whale]

so i just discovered this interesting feature of assassination:

mutilate currently deals less damage

[grim jay]

@marble hemlock based on current sims and stuff, wouldnt it make more sense for you to go kyrian and swap to nf later?

[marble hemlock]

no

[fleet whale]

than a backstab... when facing the target in front!

our 50 energy builder

[steep badger]

combo pts

[marble hemlock]

first of all, i dont like kyrian. echoing reprimand is an awful covenant ability

second, i dont think kyrian is as good as everybody thinks

[steep badger]

could only imagine ER once sub players are geared.

[fleet whale]

mut generating more cps does not justify its pathetic damage

[marble hemlock]

third, i like the interactivity of SBS+lead by example with the current rogue specs

setting up a spike for 13% before every shiv or dance

just makes for much more fun and min-maxing gameplay

[fleet whale]

i don't think there is really a huge amount of min maxing with any covenant

[marble hemlock]

the sim currently just uses SBS on cd pmuch, which is why i believe it to be undersimming

[fleet whale]

they all seem really close

[marble hemlock]

and thats not counting the 2% prim stat for 4 people in your grp/raid

emeni sim also only uses 2 allies (the one that fuu did, anyway)

so its only 9% agi, not 13%

[steep badger]

does haste effect sbs tick times?

[marble hemlock]

oh, he added 4ally sim now

and lo and behold

its the strongest t1 soulbind

without even counting proper lineup or the ally benefit

[steep badger]

where are you seeing this?

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/GPVtH/ee6431ef06.png

[steep badger]

oh damn

[marble hemlock]

and that is without lining up sbs before CDs like shiv/symbols+dance

just random use. sometimes it lines up, sometimes it doesnt. and thats not counting the benefit to the grp/raid

[polar cape]

yo im digging that whole necro thing now

[steep badger]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTYgz1ZCEqoM-KDFQwvyWDSyDNTf8J5s1GD1lnhIwEdfmTZ31K0dnoRkHtgsq6ysEyt9qAke_e9uu01/pubhtml

^ full link

[marble hemlock]

sbs also becomes better on cleave

[steep badger]

looks like its doing wonders for sub

[marble hemlock]

and if you have adds and get resets in so you dont just have SBS every 30sec, but a bit more often

then it justb ecomes even better

[grim jay]

cant remember where I heard it, but somewhere I've heard that burrs conduit only applies the damage if the target is slowable, is that true?

not sure if someone tested

[marble hemlock]

they fixed that

last night

[polar cape]

yeah but burr just gonna be avaible in weeks

[marble hemlock]

burrs is hilariously broken atm

since its a second potency and one of the highest dps soulbinds

[fleet whale]

SBS honestly isn't my cup of tea

in fact when playing beta, it was my least favorite of the abilities

[marble hemlock]

i dont particularly like sbs

but i love lead by example

it gives so much room to play around

[jovial haven]

solvent is pretty cool too

whether its strong or not...cool concept

[fleet whale]

i'm prolly just gonna roll sub

and roll venth cause they look the coolest to me

[marble hemlock]

venth+sub is a nice prio-dmg niche for sure

and nadjia is good for st/prio

[grim jay]

I might end up playing kyrian because its pretty good everywhere and its the only covenant ability I can see being useful in pvp aswell

since everything else is prolly cleanseable

[marble hemlock]

they need to make sepsis undispellable for sure

seems so dumb that you can just remove a covenant ability

[grim jay]

I think its the same with venthyr

not sure tho

[marble hemlock]

anyway

need to do some more work

[steep badger]

Thanks for the insight m8, was a pleasure

[strange python]

i think with sepsis its going to turn into baiting the cleanse, forcing the healers to work in overtime and have to sometimes decide between heals/defensives/cleanse

also I think it could open up a new meta, just nuking the healer first with it, keeping them locked up and blowing all your cds on them

seems like even good healers have trouble keeping up with it already with normal bleeds

also if you smoke and lock them up, the healer is going to have to decide between a life saving heal or cleanse on your target

[woeful hearth]

As someone who played Classic over BFA and preferred Sin over Sub in Legion, how sad am I if I want to be reasonably competitive?

[balmy condor]

Pretty sad

If you don’t like outlaw or sub in current iteration

It’s not a good time

[fleet whale]

so sad that i've just switched colors

[balmy condor]

Traitor

[strange python]

i think the coolest thing for sin rn with the squish is our dots really actually add up when everyone only has like 18-20k ish healthpools

seems like enchants hit different now too, suddenly that 8 haste is hype

[strange python]

so now a full rupture is like 1/4 of their life instead of like 1/15th

i think 5k ish dmg is baseline too, that's before your haste/mastery bonuses

[balmy condor]

#pvp ?

[strange python]

ah i didn't know this was pve only, just reads spec discussion

Assassination Rogue discussion, Shadowlands information is in the pins. !guide, !help, !sims, !fuu

so is this pve only then?

[balmy condor]

Usually yeah

[strange python]

that's dumb haha

[balmy condor]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[strange python]

or did you just kind of picture it that way

seems like it would read pve at top

[balmy condor]

Won’t get a lot of pvp nerds in here

[strange python]

like how most discords functions

[balmy condor]

I’m just saying that you’ll find pvp discussions more fruitful in pvp

[strange python]

makes sense

[balmy condor]

Because usually this isn’t a pvp channel

There’s the odd convo bout it here or there

But pvp usually stays in pvp

[strange python]

i like having a litle assassin hangout to discuss pvp stuff

away from those subs

(:

heckin subs

[dry atlas]

You're the only one and it's only in this channel that cares whispyr lol

[balmy condor]

Bruh I’m just trying to help the guy find a discussion on what he was talking about

[strange python]

jk just seems more organized keeping it in here that's all

[balmy condor]

I don’t move masses from one channel to the other

[strange python]

well keeping some of it in here

and using pvp to kind of talk shop with other specs about it

[balmy condor]

I’m literally just pointing out that it’ll be more successful over there

[strange python]

ya haha i know

i just drank some fucking gfuel to finish my work faster i'm wired haha sorry

and that 2 days till shadowlands hypetrain is in full effect choo choo

[nimble tartan]

woo!

[onyx patrol]

i am in need of some helping finding out what the best legendaries will be as of now for assassination rogue? can anyone put me in the right direction?

[balmy condor]

Zoldyck

But also in the pins

And you can see comparisons here

!Fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[steel elbow]

i mean, like everyone else (almost everyone else anyway) I too will be swapping to sub this xpac, but the sub channel is basically cancer with aids on a daily basis.

so I will hide in here with my fellow soon to be artists formerly known as assassination rogues

[balmy condor]

:) welcome to the swamp

[halcyon oak]

I'ma just play sin anyways cuz it's fun

[balmy condor]

I’m gonna flex sin and sub I think

[strange python]

It will be more fun to fight the meters as sin

And show everyone u can still top it

[balmy condor]

And if you don’t, join a worse guild until you do

[fleet whale]

well there is another benefit to playing sin

less people overall, easier to get orange parses

[warm peak]

here is another benefit, the channel is not cancer

[balmy condor]

Channel wasn’t cancer during 8.3 either

Real comfy

Slow, consistent, comfy, unchanging

And that’s why we call it the swamp

[ember mural]

can we call you shrek then

[balmy condor]

If it makes you happy

[unborn otter]

Whispyr is love; Whispyr is life.

[balmy condor]

[jagged axle]

last minute changes i have faith haha

[fleet whale]

they will likely do some spec tuning around mythic release

who knows if it will be enough though

[grizzled jay]

Varo swapped to Sub

[fleet whale]

i'm both

[jagged axle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/365311286206267393/779219434170613770/pain.mp4

[fleet whale]

it prio's sub though

[grizzled jay]

i hope you have fun dealing with #subtlety

that channel is legit cursed

[balmy condor]

Ye little bit

[grizzled jay]

i dont care if sub is the best spec period im not going near that channel lmao

[fleet whale]

after what i went through in havoc discord

sub is nothing compared to that lol

[grizzled jay]

but Varo

Havoc DHs are just Sub rerollers

[fleet whale]

i just asked what the st talents would be for havoc at level 60

[grizzled jay]

they are the same thing

[fleet whale]

and the legit answer i got was "sim yourself"

[grizzled jay]

No other Discord TCS other than maybe Mage and Balance Druid is as aggressive with simming as Rogue TCs are

Hunter TCs didnt even do beta sims lmao

so no wonder their entire class feels clunky and broken

[jagged axle]

havoc not doing too hot as well right?

[fleet whale]

i think Koji helps with havoc sims

not nearly as bad as they make it out to be, no

they are like middle of the pack, and decent in M+

[balmy condor]

Koji helps with havoc yeah

[grizzled jay]

Koji proving why Rogue Disc is actually the only good Class disc

[fleet whale]

havoc being bottom tier is just a false narrative bad take

that somehow has become "truth"

[grizzled jay]

remember when Balance Druids were claiming they did tank dps

[balmy condor]

It’s aight

But it’s not great

[cursive dagger]

havoc players consider bottom tier when they aren't top 3

lol

[fleet whale]

yeah, but it ain't bottom tier

[jagged axle]

wonder what spec that spot truly belongs to

[cursive dagger]

thats how they classify themselves

[grizzled jay]

@jagged axle Right now, BM Hunters

[fleet whale]

prolly assasin sadly

[jagged axle]

BM hunters bad? thats new wtf

[fleet whale]

well minus BFA

BM hasn't had many tiers of top end dps

[jagged axle]

weren't they slapping in Legion?

[cursive dagger]

not rly. MM was pretty good tho

[jagged axle]

wonder how survival's doing lol

they didn't get many changes i dont think

[cursive dagger]

http://gph.is/1u134vE

[jovial haven]

they will be bottom until they increase range to 60ft...

[cursive dagger]

thats how survival is doing

[grizzled jay]

Survival will be as it always is. On the cusp but never excelling at any one thing.

[vital haven]

im pink now

sub sucks now

[balmy condor]

Nairda slightly less traitor

[drifting cloud]

[balmy condor]

@drifting cloud when are you going pink

[drifting cloud]

I cant change now when it went full circle

gotta wait for sub to be shit again

[balmy condor]

Fair fair

[fleet anchor]

btw on the topic of Havoc, I hate you all

This Slice and Dice rabbit hole Seli and Whispyr sent me down.. it's only actually worth 0.2% DPS. Stupid pointless openers. 😛

Will go back to my ol' standby

Turns out you can really just mash buttons randomly as Assassination 10% of the time and it really doesn't matter 😛

(Also Havoc is not bottom tier, people are just whiners.)

[balmy condor]

ITS STILL 0.2

I was right seli was wrong

That’s 0.2% closer to sub man don’t take this from me I need it

[fleet anchor]

What were you right about?

[steel wagon]

is sin really that far behind on the sims? that sheet is awful telling

id imagine we have to get a buff before mythic week lol

[fleet anchor]

@balmy condor wrt "before" vs. "after" I'll note that "before" seems to actually only be notably better when using Echoing Reprimand and I think that might just be RNG 😛

[balmy condor]

[fleet anchor]

But it's really close anyway

[balmy condor]

Seli was rup first

I was snd first

@steel wagon yes it’s that far behind

[steel wagon]

jesus christ

its like 1k dps in some situations lol

[fleet anchor]

Trying to add some animacharged CP expressions here too

See if I can isolate

[steel wagon]

like 1/3rd less dps

[drowsy hollow]

oh cool, I'm glad Venthyr isn't bad. For some reason I thought it was

[fleet anchor]

Night Fae

[rare blaze]

Hey beautiful people, sin loyalist here, but new to the Discord. I've been lurking around, and i think I've found out everything I need to know going into Shadowlands, but I just want to clarify the soulbinds situation. We going whatever until 30+, and making the switch to Necro, or am I reading the pins wrong?

[fleet anchor]

Kyrian

[strange python]

i think were on nightfae/vamps rn

shits going fast

and kyrian

haha

[steel wagon]

who knows what changes they are going to make the first couple weeks though

[strange python]

ya

i like that the flavorful covenants are doing well

kryian just seems so boring

[balmy condor]

@rare blaze kyrian is better early from what it seems atm

[rare blaze]

Ahh, right on. What about at 30+, we making the switch elsewhere?

[strange python]

so you can switch covenents now?

[balmy condor]

you always could

[strange python]

oh sweeet

[balmy condor]

its a 2 week quest chain

[strange python]

ohhh

ehh better than regearing for a new char

[drowsy hollow]

You can swtich to a new covenant whenever

[balmy condor]

at 30+ you're going to night fae

[drowsy hollow]

It's going back to one you've abandoned that takes a reset

[balmy condor]

well yeah

you can get to each one once

and then you gotta do quests

[rare blaze]

Bet. Thanks. I guess I was reading that image wrong..

[balmy condor]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[balmy condor]

is your bet

for sims and such

pins are a tldr

[rare blaze]

That soulbinds image. I think I'm reading it wrong.

[balmy condor]

this one?

[rare blaze]

Yeah, isn't that purple arrow pointing at a Necrolord after 30?

[balmy condor]

that's the better soulbind for necrolord players at 30

so if you're going necrolord specifically, heirmir will be better at 30

[rare blaze]

Ahhh!

Makes sense now, haha. Preciate you!

[balmy condor]

left to right is soulbinds in each covenant, top to bottom is kyrian, night fae, necro, venthyr

:)

no problem

[rare blaze]

So we're going Kyrian early on and Night Fae later on. This is pending any changes.

[balmy condor]

yes

but they're all so close

that it really doesn't matter

if you want to do venthyr because you like the aesthetic

more power to you

go do that

I don't believe so, you keep the renown of that covenant if you swap back

but each covenant has its own renown

[rare blaze]

I've read that they're all super close. I might have to do some more homework, and see if anything appeals to me.

If I'm going to settle for mediocrity, might as well get jiggy w/ it.

[balmy condor]

yeah if you're playing sin, you're already fucked

might as well play what you enjoy

[errant delta]

So what would be the all round rogue if you say started sin find out its realy sub par and then whent sub and cried in the corner trying to learn it and then wiped away the tears as you show ppl pritty numbers?

[balmy condor]

you can play sub or outlaw right now

sin only if you're okay being laughed at

[fleet whale]

or if you really like being the underdog

it's like playing roy in smash bros melee

[balmy condor]

I like being the updog

[drowsy hollow]

As a tank I wouldn't turn my nose up at assassination

faster application of numbing poison is a niche

[rare blaze]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, Sepsis should scale w/ Shiv?

[balmy condor]

yes

[rare blaze]

Neat.

[drowsy hollow]

I do kinda wish rogue had a legendary like Cat's Eye Curio to speed up assassination

[vocal dock]

is sin really "being laughed at" ? looking at the sims fuu posted we are just majorly behind in dungeon slice, and a couple hundred dps behind sub in patchwerk

[fleet anchor]

@balmy condor I'm gonna give you a moral victory by putting it before, if only because I don't have enough time to figure out if there's anything better for ER and it's about the same for the others.. but probably the real answer is that it largely doesn't matter. And I think I'll find something marginally better for ER someday.

[balmy condor]

"a couple hundred"

is like

15%

@fleet anchor its hard to find gains for sin when none of the buttons I hit matter man cut me some slack

[jovial haven]

18.8% on the early chart

[vocal dock]

i mean unless you are pushing Mythic raiding content is that really going to matter?

[balmy condor]

kinda, yeah

sin atm is behind sub and outlaw as much as sub was behind basically all of bfa

sub got laughed at

a considerable amount

[jovial haven]

i think sub was closer in bfa...

[balmy condor]

its possible yeah

I'm being conservative about it

[jovial haven]

but yeah, when you get to 10%+ dif, its not great

[balmy condor]

I think sub was closer to 10%

but yeah

sin is like

worse.

[tall nimbus]

F

[balmy condor]

at least the sub guys still had like "look at my evisc crit" or "watch me funnel 6cp foks into this boss"

but we legit just have nothing atm

[low girder]

The only situation it competes (with sub, not outlaw because outlaw blows it out of the water here) is 2 target cleave

And even then it's not winning by a lot

[balmy condor]

well

kinda

but that's shaky too, cause that's just the legendary comparison

[tall nimbus]

Someday Blizzard will do something with bleed build like makes exantanguish works in aoe and make it right

[fleet whale]

someday i hope

[low girder]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[fleet whale]

blizz just axes the whole bleed thing

[tall nimbus]

I don’t know how to spell it in English sorry x)

[fleet whale]

and center sin around poisons again

[jovial haven]

yeah... before legion wasnt sub the bleed spec?

[low girder]

Man mobile google sheets sucks

LOL

[fleet whale]

yes sub had a ton of bleed talents

before legion

[low girder]

Ah yeah it is just leggo comparison

[balmy condor]

I'm simming the full thing

for 2 target

hold on

[low girder]

Kk

[balmy condor]

oh baby

necro sin 4217
venthyr sub 4191

WE GOT EM BOYS

VIABLE

on sustain 2 target

[low girder]

Huge gains

[balmy condor]

and nothing else

[wide ridge]

PauseChamp

[fleet whale]

Sadly there are a lot of youtube vids with titles such as "melee specs ranked in SL"

[balmy condor]

BUT WE TAKE THOSE

[fleet whale]

and most of them rank Sin either in the middle or sometimes even high

[low girder]

Compare outlaw lol

[balmy condor]

k

[low girder]

Also 4200 2 target seems mega sad

Is that preraid gear

[balmy condor]

yes

[primal zinc]

gm to the hoel assassin community

[low girder]

Ah ok

[fleet whale]

remember when we were gonna have a "TB" like talent in SL?

[primal zinc]

hole

[balmy condor]

its no enchant no potion no food none of that though

@low girder

[wide ridge]

is there any sustained 2 target fight in castle nathria?

[low girder]

Ye prolly closer to 4400 with all that

[fleet whale]

even if there was

[low girder]

No, afaik

[fleet whale]

you would likely just go sub if they're spread

or outlaw if clumped

[low girder]

Iirc outlaw destroys us in 2 target cleave

We'll know in a min

[wide ridge]

how is outlaw's patchwerk dmg

[low girder]

Better lol

[fleet whale]

quite decent

[wide ridge]

uh oh

[balmy condor]

higher than sin

[jovial haven]

i think default outlaw sim also doesnt reroll, so can be higher than in fuu's sheet

[fleet whale]

sin is like massively undertuned

[balmy condor]

by a good margin

[fleet whale]

tanks may even sim higher than it

[wide ridge]

Sadge

[low girder]

It's roughly between us and sub

[jovial haven]

unless thats been fixed in the apls

[low girder]

In ST

[balmy condor]

I can check the apl for you

in a second

[primal zinc]

2 target cleave is also good for assassins....we can use EP and subterfuge with the doomblade legendary we can EASILY sustain dps on 2 even 3 targets bleeds

[fleet whale]

except as of now

[fleet whale]

it isn't really

[balmy condor]

well

that's pretty clear

[low girder]

3 target sub overtakes us again

[balmy condor]

@low girder 4912

[low girder]

Lmfao

[jovial haven]

yeah, should be actions+=""/variable,name=rtb_reroll,value=buff.buried_treasure.up&rtb_buffs<2|buff.grand_melee.up&rtb_buffs<2"

[low girder]

Yeah that's what I figured

[jovial haven]

unless you have sleight

[primal zinc]

well im not talking about dmg done im talking about viable playstyle

[jovial haven]

which shoudl reroll any rtb_buffs<2

[fleet whale]

maybe blizz will do a soft revamp like what shadow got in 8.1

that helped pump shadow up a bit

[wide ridge]

spriests and warlocks seem busted for this first raid tier

[low girder]

I think more likely we'll get an updated talent or two

[fleet whale]

i mean i would even take that

[low girder]

And another aura buff

[fleet whale]

i don't really want an aura buff

would rather certain abilities targetted for buffs

[low girder]

I think they're kinda done with reworks during xpacs

[wide ridge]

but... shadowlands is literally here a man can dream

[fleet whale]

aura buffs are the biggest kinds of bandaids

[low girder]

Yeah

[fleet whale]

shadowlands may be here

but blizz did give ele and shadow soft revamps in 8.1

so they do sometimes change specs during expansions

[wide ridge]

half assed ones, you mean

[proper sage]

and enhance as well

enh is very different now

[fleet whale]

also don't forget legion sub

[balmy condor]

@jovial haven yeah idk, that line simmed equal to me, but I have no idea what I'm looking at cause outlaw

I'll let the outlaw nerds handle that one

[fleet whale]

that got changed a bit in the middle of the expansion too

[jovial haven]

its fine

[primal zinc]

do we have sims for best potency options?

[jovial haven]

it simmed higher than sin which is what was being looked at

[balmy condor]

wps > lethal poison @primal zinc

ye

[primal zinc]

for those soulbinds that have 1 potency and not 2

[fleet whale]

doesn't help that most of the assassin feedback for sl

said that sin was fine

[balmy condor]

well if you have 1 potency

then wps > lethal poison

so you just take wps

[primal zinc]

wps=well plated steel

?

[jovial haven]

sin plays mostly fine, it just doesnt do damage when you hit buttons

[balmy condor]

yes

[low girder]

In st it's fine

[wide ridge]

is that the shiv one?

[balmy condor]

yes

[primal zinc]

yes

[low girder]

In aoe I don't think it's fine

[balmy condor]

increased nature damage from shiv

[wide ridge]

hm

[primal zinc]

shiv at lvl 58 will become the old toxic blade

[balmy condor]

-10%

[primal zinc]

that got replaced by 10% haste alac

[drowsy hollow]

Sin feels slow to me compared to the flow of say, Sub right now

[primal zinc]

haste main stat

and its fast

xD

[balmy condor]

old tb is 30%, shiv is 20%, then wps gets you back 10% at rank 1, 24% at rank 15

so eventually shiv will do 44%

[wide ridge]

do you guys think we'll eventually wear more than 1 legendary like we did in legion

[drowsy hollow]

then take the legendary. 😄

[balmy condor]

tiny toxic blades is shit

[drowsy hollow]

Yes, they've heavily implied in interviews that we'll have more than one legendary eventually

[balmy condor]

even if it works

which it hasn't

[low girder]

Possible, but not likely for a while. I think they would've talked about it more.

If it was soon

[balmy condor]

yeah

[wide ridge]

true

[balmy condor]

probably like 3rd raid or something

[drowsy hollow]

nah, we don't know anything about 9.1 yet besides flying

[balmy condor]

in a year

[primal zinc]

even tho we could ear 2 leges the best for ST will be doombalde and zoldyck

[wide ridge]

the one we kill sylvanas?

[balmy condor]

[primal zinc]

both mid-fight till 30% and execute >30%

[balmy condor]

I think scoundrel would probably look good at that point

[fleet whale]

we would prolly combine zoldyck and dashing scoundrel

[balmy condor]

over doomblade

[fleet whale]

more poisons crits

[balmy condor]

but kinda feely

yeah

[fleet whale]

the bleed isn't the main part about doomblade

the envenom part is the main thing on it

[low girder]

Dashing and dustwalkers might also be a thing with the extra energy

On ST

[balmy condor]

don't think it would win

[fleet whale]

that might just fuck up our vendetta syncing though

[balmy condor]

but its possible

[low girder]

Might push it down to 1m

It was close last whispyr tried it

[balmy condor]

I can force some haste and see if I can get it down

[fleet whale]

it's not like scoundrel drastically increases how many abilities we'll cast

[strange python]

i think sin has just been fast lately and now its back to normal

you have to be able to see a few secs into the future for sub

reflex wise

[fleet whale]

idk, i've been playing sub a lot

i don't find it that proactive

[low girder]

I forget what kind of gear you forced to get it to -48s

[primal zinc]

since we scale haste and since haste buffs both tick rate and energy regen mean we can sustain 15% extra dmg on envenom...also rank 2 snd gives 10% energy regen same as vigour 10% so with haste main stat and 20% energy regen i believe is kinda too much for dashing...so i would prefer dmg

[balmy condor]

dw bout it

[primal zinc]

🙂

[balmy condor]

I'll crank the haste to like 900%

[strange python]

ya i'm starting to kinda get a grasp for it, still need more time on sin to build a better foundation

[balmy condor]

and go from there

[low girder]

Lmao

[strange python]

i think the burst combo is like 17 keys rn for sub

then you sometimes wanna situationally switch stuff up

[primal zinc]

also dont forget that crit=versa=mastery as secondary stat

so mutilate bleed scales with mastery and versa and crit

envenom 15% dmg scales with versa and crit

😄

[strange python]

ahh i wish i knew how to sim, i wanna see what an assassin crit build is like

[primal zinc]

so imo its a win-win over scroundel with all that haste main stat and 20% enrgy regen and passive ( and 7energy per rapute garrote tick)

[balmy condor]

wdym "is like"

[strange python]

if its viable again with the talent tree changes

[balmy condor]

master assassin is our go-to talent in single target

[strange python]

ik was just curious about other builds too

and if anyone tested out the crit stuff yet

[balmy condor]

what crit stuff

[primal zinc]

w8

pure st MA is better than sbtf?

[balmy condor]

yes

in shadowlands at least

[wide ridge]

is kyrian our best single target covenant still? even after pelagos nerfs?

[balmy condor]

early, yes

[wide ridge]

hm

[strange python]

something like this

[balmy condor]

venom rush is shit compared to alacrity

[wide ridge]

isn't venom rush garbage

[balmy condor]

but the rest of the tree is just our single target talents

[strange python]

i know i was thinking crit+mastery+ this

and just going real fast

[balmy condor]

oh

no

haste is main stat forever

[strange python]

haha

[balmy condor]

no getting round that

[strange python]

i love haste now that it scales with bleed

curious tho that sort of build use to be really badass with rogue

[balmy condor]

and without haste, mastery kinda gets worse

not by a lot

but its already at the bottom of the totem pole

[strange python]

i have a feeling at some point this build will be viable again

why else would the put the talents in

with slice and dice

oof that would be sweet

[balmy condor]

I don't think that's how that works

[primal zinc]

is it viable on dps check bosses to use exsa instead of alac?

[strange python]

haha

[balmy condor]

no

[strange python]

tru but I don't see how game design would work if they built it around 1 build

[balmy condor]

exsang is about 6.5% down

[primal zinc]

O.o

rly?

[balmy condor]

yes

[strange python]

the idea is to actually get a few builds but it always shakes down to one it seems like

[balmy condor]

its the worst talent in that row

by a decent margin

venom rush is better

[strange python]

vigor + venom rush tho

and crits

that sounds fun

i want that

[primal zinc]

how come tho in PURE ST ma is better than sbtf?

we got any sims?

[balmy condor]

wdym how come

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/haHAtqNvPDqEuVJb6KDCw5

[primal zinc]

vanish to 80% garrote isnt better than vanish to 50% crit fro 5 sec?

[balmy condor]

this is from the bis list I made earlier today

[primal zinc]

3 sec

[balmy condor]

you can compare talents there if you want

[rare blaze]

I'd assume w/o Shrouded Suffocation, SBTF doesn't shine on ST anymore.

[balmy condor]

50% crit for 3 seconds is kinda giga

especially when you get it into a shiv window

and you have wps

and you'd be correct

subt wins on 2+, handedly

but on single target without garrote getting buffed somewhere else

not really happening

they're still very close

0.5%

but ma does edge it out

@low girder even with 126% haste from gear and a blistering 62apm, we're looking at 69 nice seconds on vendetta

without blindside , it goes to 65 seconds

so uh

close enough I guess

just hit 62apm

[low girder]

Damn.

Just get corruption back, ez

[unkempt nacelle]

Decided to main assa rogue for sl my dudes :^)

I know it’s not in a fantastic spot but I have the most fun on it so yolo

[balmy condor]

adding 900 haste and going to ~50apm without blindside takes us to 72seconds

it syncs with every other vanish as intended

but 2% behind zoldyck

[unkempt nacelle]

Do we have a command or page on here for current best subject to change covenant and legendaries for assa?

[balmy condor]

pins have most of that info

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[balmy condor]

has a lot of the gritty numbers

[unkempt nacelle]

Thanks 🙂

[strange python]

i understand some of these words

looks like a sword and sorcery stat sheet haha

[primal zinc]

atm im doing sims myself on raidbots

whispyr 1 question

about MA

[balmy condor]

yeah

[primal zinc]

does 1st strike on boss fight garrote getting buffed by ma?

[balmy condor]

garrote doesn't do instant damage

but it does buff the crit of the ticks, yes

[low girder]

Vendetta shit cooldown confirmed

[primal zinc]

so opener will be garrote>shiv>soulbind? all that 3 in MA?

[balmy condor]

I assume I can force nightfae and shiv to line up every 2nd time with a 90 second vendetta, but like, can't be asked

[low girder]

Ye

[balmy condor]

opener with ma would be mut snd mut rup most likely @primal zinc

[primal zinc]

w8

no garrote?

[low girder]

No reason to do immediately without subterfuge

[balmy condor]

yeah

not worth

[primal zinc]

bleed tick energy reg

???

[balmy condor]

yeah but you don't need it in the first 5 seconds

first 3 seconds you got full energy, just get the most out of ma

then you can put up the garrote

mut snd mut rup gar

ez

[primal zinc]

oh ok

and what should aim for vanish?

[low girder]

Yeah making sure you get the most out of the big CP gen from muts is important

[primal zinc]

i mean time together

[balmy condor]

shiv into vanish envenom mut envenom

[primal zinc]

umm

where do i see the stats?

[balmy condor]

wdym

[primal zinc]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/haHAtqNvPDqEuVJb6KDCw5

like how much haste% versa crit you have

[balmy condor]

oh

in the html report

[fleet whale]

i still ran the legion the opener when i ran MA in BFA lol

[balmy condor]

its not really important info

so raidbots doesn't show it

gotta open the full report and dig it out if you're interested

[primal zinc]

ty

lol

this gear is only 21% haste?

O.O

[fleet whale]

i did gar mut rupture mut vend tb vanish envenom mut envenom

[balmy condor]

21% haste from gear

yes

[primal zinc]

tb?

os you mean shiv ye

oh

[balmy condor]

@fleet whale that's before snd right

you wouldn't open with gar mut rup in ma nowadays like that

seems kinda troll

[primal zinc]

well its ok

gar mut rup mut snd vend shiv vanish env mut env

mut in between

snd

i mean after snd

[balmy condor]

mut snd mut rup gar cov/vendetta shiv vanish env mut env

gar mut rup with ma

is not gud

[atomic gate]

So we're expecting blanket adjustments across multiple specs launch day right?

[balmy condor]

yes

well

heroic week

but yes

[glad mist]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

Pre patch: Versatility > Critical Strike > Mastery > Haste
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[sick scarab]

from your sim i see deeper statagem more or less same as blindside..

mm

[balmy condor]

same as vigor

ds and blindside aren't on the same row

[sick scarab]

i am blind lol

y y i am lol

and there is a "combo" DS and kirian ability ?

[balmy condor]

hm?

[sick scarab]

wiht no ds

[balmy condor]

I don't understand the question

[sick scarab]

my english 🙂 mm let me put it down in a decent way 🙂

kirian abiity can give us 7 point combo finisher

wiht DS it is always 7 or go up to 8 ?

[balmy condor]

7

[sick scarab]

ah then vigor is better

also in concept

k k

[balmy condor]

not necessarily

ds still gives 5% increased finisher damage, and that affects the kyrian 7cp finisher

[sick scarab]

well wiht vigor we gain more energy and more power from abiity covenant

5 cp go to 7

instead 6 to 7

but less energy

i am mad ?

[balmy condor]

okay but that doesn't change how much damage you're getting from it

[sick scarab]

y y

[balmy condor]

its 7 cp finishers either way, and with DS its doing 5% more

you're getting less finishers, because less energy

[sick scarab]

but more damage of

[balmy condor]

but that doesn't change the power of the kyrian ability

[sick scarab]

ofc

[primal zinc]

whishpyr whats the total haste of all gear and buffs?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/haHAtqNvPDqEuVJb6KDCw5/simc

cant find it

[balmy condor]

I think DS actually synergizes more kyrian than vigor, because not only does it increase finisher damage, kyrian ability lets you finish on like 3cp

which means you don't have to build as many cp

obviously its not "oh my god insane DS is crazy!"

[sick scarab]

ah true

i get it

[balmy condor]

but at least to me it makes the whole 'fantasy' or whatever fit better than vigor would

[sick scarab]

i get the point

[balmy condor]

@primal zinc no idea

[sick scarab]

and it is correct

[balmy condor]

you can see the gear haste, so its just that + all the other haste stuff

[sick scarab]

alsmo more easy to hit the correctp 7 combo finisher

[balmy condor]

which will change throughout the fight

so it's a bit difficult to give a straight answer on that

[sick scarab]

and elaborate planning is waay behind blindside ?

[balmy condor]

its behind, but not by much

as we get more haste, it'll be better

[sick scarab]

i will try 2 3 2 2 1 2 1

and see ow it go

or you can give it a fast sim ? 🙂

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nr1k7tkfPFXTDDpq9nUiQJ

[primal zinc]

wahts the best endurance and utility for raiding in venthyr atm im kinda ok with recuperator ssstep and prepared for all

talking about raidwise and raidhelp both for me and grp

[balmy condor]

recup and whatever

[slender berry]

imo recuperator isnt really worth for raiding id rather go nimble fingers

[balmy condor]

recup the only one that's really "important"

[gray fjord]

Recup is pretty spicy in my opinion, there is a lot of dots in the raid

[balmy condor]

the healing is kinda nutty

everything else is meh

[primal zinc]

sstep?

take the dot out of the stacked grp and then come back to boss from WAY dowtown

i mean quick descisions

[slender berry]

yea quick decisions is the only useful one kinda

[balmy condor]

doesn't really matter all that much imo

[sick scarab]

tnx Whispyr for the sim , it is interesting mm

[balmy condor]

you're not shadow stepping THAT much

[primal zinc]

well lets just assume that i have to take a debuff out of the stacked grp to the edges...its still better to gain some extra yards to get faster to boss

[slender berry]

i just cant see 28% over 36 seconds ever saving your life

[primal zinc]

whats that?

[slender berry]

recup

[balmy condor]

its more of a healer mana thing

and just reduction to the damage incoming

[gray fjord]

If you're going venthyr Nadjia, you'll end up with 2 finesse and one endurance, and Recup is the only really decent endurance one

[balmy condor]

more than "this tick is gonna save me"

[slender berry]

idk in a progress setting that doesnt really exist

especially as a rogue

[primal zinc]

its still even 0,1% better that anything else

im talking about min-max in raid

imo recup is the ebst

as about utility i would go sstep and prepare

[slender berry]

reduced energy cost on feint and vial is defensive and dps gain

[primal zinc]

prepare for all i mean interupts reduce cd of cloak

cloak is better defence and also at cloak you do 100% dmg

😄

whispyr what if we wanna use both wps and letal poison?

what is the best pick?

[balmy condor]

uh, if you specifically want both wps and lethal poison, that rules out all of venthyr, heirmir from necro, niya from night fae, and kleia from kyrian

so.... probably best bet is pelagos

[slender berry]

some of those choices will probably still be better by just choosing the suboptimal route no ?

[balmy condor]

correct

they don't take wps and lethal

they take wps and a passive that's good

[shy radish]

why in wowhead guide best covenant is night fae for all?

[balmy condor]

most well rounded across everything

[shy radish]

okay, why in the pins Kyrian is best for all? 😮

[balmy condor]

cause early on, kyrian is better

[sterile jackal]

last two weeks here is like 90% "what cov is better" jeez

[slender berry]

Almost like people will have to pick their covenants soon

[sterile jackal]

just take what you like, skill in playing class is far more important than ~4% power difference

[grizzled jay]

@sterile jackal Oh just wait for Monday my dude

It's gonna be incessant

I hope @vestal wren has something in place to make people read the Shadowlands guide before they can post a single sentence

[sterile jackal]

on monday i will be busy grinding the shit out of my rogue

[shy radish]

why not divide into pre-raid and raid? or write like: all covenants is close, just stfu and take what u like

in the pins and guides

[grizzled jay]

cause fuu does this for free lol

[shy radish]

it's his choice

[balmy condor]

because saying stfu and take what you like

[low girder]

If you write the second people ask anyway

[balmy condor]

isn't accurate to the numbers

and then people go

OKAY BUT WHATS BETTER

he's fucked if he does

fucked if he doesn't

if he shows the numbers, people get butthurt cause they're so close and some are better in certain situations than others and depending on renown etc etc

[vestal wren]

whats the question?

[balmy condor]

if he doesn't show the numbers and just says "good enough", no one would be happy with it

[shy radish]

and then people say that Russians are toxic

lol

[balmy condor]

the question originally was "why does wowhead say night fae but the pins say kyrian"

[shy radish]

im just askng

[low girder]

He's explaining

[balmy condor]

and it morphed into "if they're so close, why give a tier list"

[low girder]

Don't take it personally

[sterile jackal]

btw did some1 simmed zoldyck on sub/outlaw?

[clever mist]

Sooo what is best covenant?

[sterile jackal]

Kyrian ofc :p

[clever mist]

But i want to be a fairy

[sterile jackal]

i dont want to be schmetterling rogue

well, NF have flower gardens, where you can make gold, its pretty good tbh

[clever mist]

[sterile jackal]

ardenweald marijuana is pricy

[clever mist]

Nah i want to be poor like every expansion

[vestal wren]

the diffrence between WoWhead probably comes from 30+ renown sims

also ovenants are quite close

[sterile jackal]

all 3 are good

one should be left in darkness

[royal halo]

Where is that general guide for Shadowlands?

The one for leveling and stuff to do the first week?

[sterile jackal]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1ecw7GkZTyF-YkdMtuBKRZWc0FInkqkaxynzw2pQTRoM/htmlview?pru=AAABdf_bhhQ*GWs2juvP9cvpJmk33fdSIA#

all you need

[edgy ginkgo]

what do you think ios the best covenant for multispeccing? is it still venthyr or nightfae?

[spice swan]

Pins say top covenant is Kyrian for every spec right now. This should answer it, I guess.

[edgy ginkgo]

wowhead says that nightfae is best for all speccs, updated 21.11. 11pm... thats why i'm confused :>

[shrewd garnet]

after pelegos got nerfed

[lavish isle]

When in doubt, trust the mighty fine theorycrafters of class discords, they make sure to be on point with classes/specs, no halfed ass things here. Wowhead might be a good site for wow in general but class discords will have the top people working on delivering you the best results.

[unborn barn]

Confused sheep, lovely

[lavish isle]

no need for that

we all need help sometimes

[unborn barn]

That's true, very true. But what goes on in this discord is not that. In my own flawed opinion

People just come for easy already digested answers, and they want it on a platter.

[lavish isle]

Are you a theorycrafter or have contributed/worked with the theorycrafters of this discord to provide detailed/correct information for the public? If not then you as everyone else that is not, we search for answers here, ask around, look at pins and take it from there.

[unborn barn]

People can and will do as they please

[pulsar flare]

is CT aoe capped?

[verbal mantle]

yes, 8 targets

you can see all target caps here : https://www.wowhead.com/guides/shadowlands-target-capped-abilities-uncapped-capped-spells#rogues-assassination

[signal summit]

how does assa look right now compared to other classes and speccs? for pve or pvp

[shut garnet]

cross class comparison atm is pointless

cross spec, its looking pretty fkin weak

[vestal wren]

you can make cross class comparisons

but only if you know what you do

and this just means jumping through a lot of hoops to create relevant data

[muted ridge]

btw do we have sims/anything on potions and enchants for Patchwerk ?

[radiant dove]

hello all!!! so night fae best covenant? kyrian is vial also?

[slender berry]

[lethal heart]

🔮

[vestal wren]

kyrian might be better

but it comes down to how you define "best"

[hollow escarp]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[shrewd mica]

The best for (the lazy) me is: less buttons, less punishing rotation, more accuracy on rotation, more fun without a huge DPS loss. I will go Venthyr!

[vestal wren]

they got a sick transmog

[frigid kestrel]

Wait, every class except Rogue has a Covenant AOE ability?

Also, sorry thats a question for general

[rain plinth]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[vestal wren]

necrolord is probably the closest to aoe

[pliant apex]

so is no one going sin for raids?

[shrewd mica]

and Kyrian empowered Black Powder

[dawn merlin]

outlaw and sub are pretty much better than sin at everything atm

could be there's a balancing pass before hc opens tho

[vale marten]

if there is balancing it will be when mythic opens, when bliz sees whatneeds buffs and nerfs in hc week

[uneven summit]

Anyone who actually has a sin rogue atm 😛 Armory link for proof

[frigid kestrel]

Imma stay sin for the first 2 - 3 weeks of release... if nothing changes ill have to .....go ... to..... s

I cant type it

[uneven summit]

i feel the very very same

[vestal wren]

i don't think there is a reason to pick assassination atm

its just to far behind

[frigid kestrel]

Does anyone know of a weapon swap macro to the legendary daggers with the wings? Like swap to them and use them as gliders or something?

[grim jay]

@balmy condor knock knock, you at home?

[strange python]

hey so now all specs have to go night fae? I didnt like them...

[royal lantern]

the difference

is litearlly less then 20dps

not 20%, 20

people need too learn how you read spreadsheats lol

[real bay]

aka pick what you want

[strange python]

sorry I just see the wowhead article

[royal lantern]

dont use wowhead for serious stuff

trust me

good for informations about news, thats it

they just pump out any and all informations too have stuff,doesnt amtter if it is good or bad information

[strange python]

perfect then, so we are the more balanced class for covenants seems xd, every covenant is very similar each other in all spec...

[rotund mauve]

yeh sin just didnt get any changes, and people equated that to bad class

[halcyon oak]

Yeah wowhead has always been good for like database things, walkthroughs and comments, not so much for guides imo

[grim tree]

Hi

I'm new around here I'm going to play rogue this expansion that you recommend to me for pve raid an m + I've always played murder but how do they say it's wrong that you recommend me? thank you very much greetings

[gritty heron]

anybody know stats for m+, crit+vers/mast?

[dry atlas]

Pins

[grim jay]

• sim what you get

[gritty heron]

i know, but prio haste in m+ seems kinda odd

[dry atlas]

Why

[gritty heron]

other posts are out of date so, mostly checking first 3

[dry atlas]

Nothing is out of date they get edited

Just use raidbots

[grizzled mesa]

This chat is dead

As #subtlety is saying

[dense cedar]

All the Sin rogues are just in stealth

[balmy condor]

It’s true

[dense cedar]

waiting for the opportune moment to attack

Like true assassins

[balmy condor]

Waiting for the tank to pull 3 targets for subterfuge

[dense cedar]

At least unlike some other dead specs

Sin is actually fun

:)

[balmy condor]

:) true

Thanks for coming and giving me company, it gets lonely around here

[fading wigeon]

Ok fine I will bite. What's the best covenant for assassination guys?????????

[dense cedar]

I mained sin for two expansion tho

so it will be nice to take a break since the spec hasn't changed much

[fading wigeon]

A former DH who wants to play assassination. Help me

[dense cedar]

uhm

lemme check

also

What do you want out of your covenant?

[balmy condor]

Probably kyrian early

And then night fae later

[fading wigeon]

I was just teasing

Because you guys said channel was dead

[dense cedar]

Whispyr hitting them straight faxe machines

[balmy condor]

[fading wigeon]

Lol

[dense cedar]

🗞️ @fading wigeon

[fading wigeon]

Haha

[dense cedar]

I still think people would just like sin more if kingsbane was talent

or even baseline

[balmy condor]

Or if we did damage

[fading wigeon]

Lol

More damage would help

[dense cedar]

@balmy condor People would still call the spec boring and ignore it if it wasn't waayyy ahead

[balmy condor]

All my homies gone

[fading wigeon]

If all specs were in line I would pick sin

[balmy condor]

[fading wigeon]

But no reason to gimp myself and then be benched to prove a point lol

[dense cedar]

tbh Legion assassination was my fav version of it

so fun