haven't played with it
#assassination
balmy condor
balmy condor
lmao
frigid kestrel
😂🤣😂😂 you finally got it
balmy condor
frigid kestrel
Time for me to get serious I guess. @grizzled jay where is that list of BIS pre-raid ish you posted?
Need to plan out my Monday - Friday accordingly.
grizzled jay
idk go find it
frigid kestrel
You the man 
grizzled jay
just scroll up its here
left relic
eager needle
Hey guys, been playing the game 3-4 days. Think I’m maining rogue.. gone assassination spec and wondering if I can get tips on stat priority?
Kinda want an all round build until I can specialise though..
Is mastery important for pvp? Got some much better gear that drops loads of mastery which I feel is important 😦
steep badger
Anyone know if serrated bonespike gets factored into doomblade as an additional bleed?
marble magnet
Can soeone explin envenom? "increases your poison application chance by 30%"
Why is this relevant if an enemy is already poisoned
balmy condor
poison reapplications do instant damage
@steep badger I don't believe so
but there's so many interactions I'm honestly not sure
bold herald
Silly question. I'm coming back after a hiatuses from BfA, just rolled a Sin and would like to main it in SL. Am in just being inconsiderate to all people I play with by being Sin ? Is it that bad?
steep badger
gotcha yeah, just trying to justify sin's early inferiority and thinking maybe scaling will do the trick
marble magnet
@bold herald no
steep badger
its not that bad
balmy condor
depends on what you're doing
its pretty fucking bad if you're trying to be optimal
but if you're just a heroic raider doing your 2-3 m+ dungeons
its whatever
bold herald
Not Mythic raider, maybe key pushes but not any 25+ keys I mean? Idk
steep badger
in comparison to all classes its not in a terrible place, sub just does a lot a little bit better at the moment
balmy condor
with current tuning, sin is 15% behind both of the other specs
which for people pushing, is pretty much unplayable
marble magnet
how did it get that bad
balmy condor
its always been that bad
bold herald
Maybe I missused the word push. I mean I think the highest or I have ever done is a 23-24
marble magnet
that's prety high
balmy condor
by a mile
steep badger
which could also go out the window with any buffing or stat scaling. My guess is once we get some more haste gear it could change quite a bit but wouldn't expect any significant difference til 2nd or even 3rd raid
balmy condor
23-24 is pretty high
bold herald
On BrM ( if that matters)
bold herald
Ok that answers my question thank you guys.
steep badger
educate me please 🙂
marble magnet
both abilities and autos can apply poison right?
balmy condor
sin doesn't inherently have a magical stat scaling that makes it better than other specs later in the xpac
@marble magnet yes
marble magnet
So the point of envenom is to pool energy to use as much abilities while it's up?
steep badger
oh yeah im not talking about the current values, I'm talking changes bliz could just make a few patches down the road, like the random raw % dmg buff we got during uldir
balmy condor
no, envenom is basically just a dump
there's not really anything you want to do during the window
marble magnet
Envenom buff is negligible rotation-wise?
steep badger
could hurt yourself more than help if you try to play around it
balmy condor
eh
its pretty hard to fuck it up
as long as you're not overcapping things
its quite difficult to get it wrong
steep badger
im thinking overpooling
marble magnet
is it easier than outlaw
steep badger
both energy and combo points
steep badger
I think sin gets a bad rap for its high floor
marble magnet
high floor means difficult though
balmy condor
@frigid kestrel got you your bis list
ton of side-grades
no trinkets in there either, some of them are just straight up broken
steep badger
naw, in terms of your floor is high to begin with naturally, don't have to do too much to be "good"
frigid kestrel
no trinkets in there either, some of them are just straight up broken
I’m good with the trinkets, they easy af to follow
balmy condor
but from what me and seli were seeing yesterday, toxin/decanter seems to be close enough to bis
so
I would trust it personally
steep badger
but to be great, managing 3+cleave efficiently and timing properly is where it gets complex
frigid kestrel
Also thanks
steep badger
doing it right vs just getting by
marble magnet
if envenom is lowest priority, why is master assassin spent on it?
steep badger
the move is as far as raw dmg, not the buff, guessing for MA its the energy that makes the dif since we're most starved but that's my guess
balmy condor
envenom mut envenom is the most damage you can fit into 3 seconds
spending it on a rupture would be weird since it doesn't do instant damage, so that's a dead global
same with garrote
envenom does more than a mutilate, so that rules out just triple mutilating
marble magnet
the move is as far as raw dmg, not the buff, guessing for MA its the energy that...
I cant read that
balmy condor
its really as simple as envenom is our instant damage finisher
steep badger
sorry, insomnia doing a number on my ability to type coherent thoughts atm. I'm leaning on that the extra energy gain in the envonem window has some more value than at first glance
steep badger
speaking on the lego
steep badger
again was thinking DS
steep badger
slept 3 hrs in 2 days so bad time to theorycraft
marble magnet
what's DS
steep badger
whisp what are your thoughts on blindside's value come raid tier vs epor mp
balmy condor
blindside pog single target
steep badger
and also meant dashing scoundrel's 1 energy per crit (ds i was talking about)
marble magnet
Isnt energy gain in vigor? not deeper strategem?
balmy condor
master poisoner is trash
pliant apex
ok guys, latest tuning means sin now comparable with sub? sub no longer easy choice over sin??
balmy condor
outlaw is better in m+, sub in single target
pliant apex
dam wowhead page says outlaw over sub
balmy condor
I mean
probably true
there's a lot of cleave and aoe in nathria
so I can see it happening
pliant apex
what you going to play?
steep badger
is BP priority finisher on 2+ or 3+ trash mobs?
recent sin to sub conversion so been reading up and see some conflicting data
balmy condor
@steep badger the real tldr on talents is this:
row 1: blindside unless you're able to cleave and get energy otherwise, then you take ep
row 2: MA unless you're able to cleave subt garrotes, then you take subt
row 3: vigor unless you got cleave or adds you can get mfd resets on, then you take mfd
BP is the finisher on 3 I believe
and I'm probably playing sub if the tuning stays like this
steep badger
Ah thanks whisp that clears up a lot
marble magnet
I still dont see where energy is gained in deeper stategem
steep badger
Its Dashing Scoundrel lego Vedney, sorry!
marble magnet
alright
marble magnet
what time is it for you
steep badger
yeah i need a nap real bad, apologies lmao
its only 5:19 pm but severe tinnitus induced insomnia's throwing me a beaten the past 3 days
was leaning on necro in hopes that doomblade lego would count serrated bonespike as a bleed but seems like bliz doesn't want to balance some of the lego/covenant interactions. Everything i've read so far as far as the recent tuning goes all covs are super close
least since pelagos's dismantling
steep badger
essentially looks like unless you're a top 1% parser cov abilities are currently negligible
balmy condor
the spec is the one that isn't
steep badger
yep
i forget the flat dmg % buff sin got around uldir times right before they smashed sub into the ground after zul parses came out
remember thinking it was significant though
balmy condor
balmy condor
I always want every spec to be viable
just so people can play what they prefer
but I personally would like to play sin
pliant apex
same
but though ppl told me play what you like, i dont think sin would work if i raid right
i like it, but the chances of trial are going to be low with it right
balmy condor
not if you're trying to be optimal, or push mythic
if you're doing some light mythic, probably fine
but if your raid leader is an ass, you'll get benched
pliant apex
yea
slender berry
depends on the guild also , if word gets around that assa is trash and you play assa they might think of you differently
to put it lightly
balmy condor
yeah
shadow tulip
pliant apex
15 % what
balmy condor
but it'll be able to get CE with it, the question is how much is your guild willing to deal with that handicap
steep badger
behind the other specs
balmy condor
15% worse than sub and outlaw
slender berry
unless they are pretty bad players
and you can easily out dps them on sin
then they probably wouldnt mind
steep badger
found that patch btw, sept 10th 2018 hotfix. They didn't buff sin but they nerfed all dmg for outlaw and sub by 5%
pliant apex
unless they are pretty bad players
then theyd be a pretty shit giuld lol
slender berry
yup
shadow tulip
found that patch btw, sept 10th 2018 hotfix. They didn't buff sin but they nerf...
But now that won't do, unless they nerf all other specs too
steep badger
Yeah, I think its pretty clear sin needs something. Wondering if they just have it out for the spec to get more people playing the others.
low girder
They also nerfed sub's good azerite traits like 5 different times. And then later nerfed shrouded suffocation. The shuriken combo removal didn't happen until 8.1
steep badger
almost threw my keyboard out the window when i saw they nerfed zoldycks thinking it was actual tuning vs them trying to get the other legos some attention for tuning.
balmy condor
zoldyck got nerfed?
steep badger
Yeah I think that was coming no matter what but zul may have sped up that process
a couple patches ago before they brought it back
low girder
Wasn't that when everything got nerfed
steep badger
it was down to like 20% under 30% at one point
balmy condor
that was a while ago
steep badger
yeah, they brought it back up. I don't think it was to tune it as much as it was to get exposure onto other legos that needed actual tuning
shadow tulip
almost threw my keyboard out the window when i saw they nerfed zoldycks thinking...
I'm very careful with my peripherials since I use razer naga epic(5 years). Would be expensive to replace...
steep badger
awesome mouse btw
just wish it had the thumbrest like the basilsk
if they could make a basilsk with the side numberpad of a naga
shadow tulip
Did they replace that series btw?
steep badger
naw its still going
just newer versions
interchangable side plates
2 button/8 button /12 button
shadow tulip
Oh
steep badger
magnetic, kinda neat
steep badger
yeah, its either use those or shift macro everything
i didn't recognize shift macros were a thing til like legion
so always used a 12 button naga
shadow tulip
macroing your modifiers
Crow of judgement?
balmy condor
yes
steep badger
yeah, think im going to test black powder on shift 3 to see how it feels.
my actual sub macros will need some tweaking. currently only using 2 big ones for symbols n dance
#showtooltip Symbols of Death
/startattack
/cast Symbols of Death
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Worldvein Resonance
/use Potion of Unbridled Fury
#showtooltip Shadow Dance
/cast [stance:0]Shadow Dance
/cast [stance:2]Shadowstrike
/use 14
shadow tulip
8&11 on thumb bar for me
steep badger
I'll break em apart more once i feel more comforatble w the spec
havent played sub since the hemo mace days
lots changed
shadow tulip
I like sub for questing and pvp, but somehow can't get used to it in raids
steep badger
I think black powder will be a game changer for raids
shadow tulip
Maybe the fight lenght?
steep badger
with black powder and secret technique on cd, should make things easier to manage
aoe wise at least
that's where sub feels super clunky for me at the moment coming from sin
shadow tulip
I'm kinda underwhelmed by it's dmg tho
balmy condor
wouldn't it be cool if every spec had viable aoe spells baseline
haha
ha
hahaha
steep badger
lmao
polar cape
we had one in legion
steep badger
its ok someday crimson tempest might go baseline
balmy condor
cause I cry too brother
polar cape
couugh poison bomb coough
steep badger
not holding my breath but we can dream
steep badger
I think sins easier to be close to sims than sub though
as far as mechanics and downtime goes
balmy condor
that doesn't make up for the cavern between the two specs
steep badger
hell no
shadow tulip
Caver? Grand canyon
steep badger
It'l need a flat overall dmg increase, if they don't do it we know they just have it out for the spec lol. Wondering how many people are actually on the class balancing team. Always thought they had like one person per class back in the day but recently learned it was like 3 people in MOP
one of which just left bliz like last week
willow oracle
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
halcyon oak
I can't believe that guy publicly said he was unhappy with the game as he left... Like isn't that gonna look bad to prospective employers?
steep badger
Doubt it, considering his roll/lack of control over the direction. Especially if he's already got something lined up behind the scenes. Sure bad look on the surface but he was trashing the direction not the company.
balmy condor
kinda drifting into #wow-general :)
steep badger
back to spec balancing XD
steep badger
what else could they do outside of a flat overall dmg buff at this point
games out in 3 days lol
balmy condor
there's a number of abilities I think should get buffed
most notably fok and rupture
balmy condor
eh
that would be fine
but I think there's larger problems than just that
our stats are fine as they are
sin hasn't had a dead stat in a long time
steep badger
maybe overall ap from agi?
balmy condor
agi ap got normalized cross spec and class a while ago
that would be pretty janky
also that's basically equal to an aura buff
same result
steep badger
yeah, throwing ideas at the wall at this point, wouldn't make sense to open that pandoras box again
balmy condor
its either aura buff, which is likely, or specific skills, which is unlikely
imo most of sins problems stem from the aoe design and talent tree
steep badger
buff snd back to 70% and keep energy regen then see what happens?
balmy condor
you could remove half the talents in the tree and it wouldn't change anything
the single target is fine
if sin got an aura buff, it would be raid viable very quickly
I'm mostly concerned about m+ viability
cause it feels like you want to multi-dot
but then you multi-dot and it doesn't really do anything
steep badger
hows garrote feel without sf?
balmy condor
imo, fine
just less damage and you're not instantly overcapped on cp
but you're still at 3 afterwards
so its really fine tbh
steep badger
gotcha, but im guessing missing that extra dmg hurts 🙂
low girder
No bleeds support from the new systems is concerning on that front.
balmy condor
yeah, EB as well
low girder
And that too
balmy condor
fok is very weak in the grand scale of things
and we don't have an aoe finisher outside of CT
which you can't really spam
our cp generation isn't as strong as subs either, reliance on crits
rupture multi-dotting is basically only there for the energy, the damage isn't that great
steep badger
so yeah, borrowed power has some blame here.
balmy condor
unempowered garrotes aren't strong enough to be worth anything
there was a poison fantasy happening similar to legion with poisoned katar and lethal poison interaction
but then they both got nerfed
and now that dreams dead
so
steep badger
don't they also proc venomous wounds? stacking with rupture?
balmy condor
well that's where the energy comes from in aoe, yes
but unempowered garrotes are usually just worse than foks
low girder
It's shit ton of energy and you don't get refunds
balmy condor
well the energy comes from rupture
low girder
And has a cooldown
balmy condor
not garrote
you're spending on ruptures until you're overcapping energy
using the unempowered garrotes isn't really worth it for the damage, and you're getting the energy from elsewhere
and as mata said, rupture sniping is a thing
garrote sniping doesn't exist
low girder
SS really held up garrote dmg wise
balmy condor
so there's that
without SS/EB, there's a bit of an identity crisis and design problem with sins m+/aoe concept imo at least
this expac it wants to lean towards poisons, but katar isn't strong enough to make it happen, and poisons in general already aren't really strong enough in aoe
bleeds don't have anything to bump them up
so you're just stuck with CT, which is oddly strong
and subt garrotes
and outside of that you're kinda fucked
eb made fok do damage, that doesn't exist anymore, and there's nothing on the instant damage front to fix that
poisons don't really have anything them make them do giga aoe
bleeds don't have anything going their way either
so sin is just kinda sitting there, not knowing what it wants to be
low girder
Legion had poison bomb to disguise this, especially after t21 bonuses
balmy condor
yeah
calm tulip
poison bomb was a meme to use tho
balmy condor
poison bomb carried the aoe hard enough in legion, ss/eb and partly sob kept it going in bfa
grim jay
I wonder how it would work out for sin with CT baseline and a finisher for AoE that roughly works like malefic rapture, just maybe a tad bit weaker per target
balmy condor
but the core of the spec has always had a problem with its aoe identity
low girder
I've kicked that idea around a lot actually
And similar things
I just didn't know about malefic rapture when I talked about it
balmy condor
our gear in single target and m+ is pretty similar without all the borrowed power stuff as well
steep badger
CT should be baseline, should it also work with VW though..
balmy condor
haste > stuff
steep badger
imagine the energy
balmy condor
CT working with wounds breaks a lot of things
steep badger
IMAGINE THO!
balmy condor
I'm imagining it
steep badger
i just see numbers popping about
balmy condor
its basically just like playing expedient in dungeons in 8.3
probably less numbers your way tbh
grim jay
@low girder could aswell be something like an AoE exsanguinate just ways weaker tho 😄
low girder
Also had that idea, yeah. I think that's more prone to breaking shit though.
grim jay
would still emphasize multidotting
balmy condor
problem with CT giving venomous wounds is that it would probably instantly be used in raids for single target just for the energy
and then it would need a damage nerf, or only give a fraction of venomous wounds
low girder
Something similar to malefic rapture is probably safest
balmy condor
and then you're just getting into a mess
low girder
He's the swamp man
low girder
steep badger
I think the idea of zoldyck + blindside being viable again are what really draw me back to sin come raid time. Miss those days in legion / mop. Both being viable at once is drool worthy. Just can't get excited for it til they do something to fix the spec
balmy condor
yeah, but it also keeps all the demon hunters in sub
sacrifices have to be made to maintain the peace
wicked knoll
Im still curious if there is a viable poison build between poison legos and master posioner.
balmy condor
I did some research on that talent row
back when lp was like
big
and master poisoner was catching up slowly
probably would've been viable with old LP in mythic gear
but then LP got stomped
calm tulip
Hows ass looking in mythic + right now? Is it auto decline like feral was in bfa tier?
low girder
Yeah, it's not in a good spot
balmy condor
or flame of "why no outlaw"
steep badger
head explodes
verbal mantle
yus
balmy condor
even when it was viable
steep badger
Might just be oldschool and nostalgic over old school combat rogues but RTB murdered outlaw for me
shadow tulip
Fuck roll the bones
low girder
Rtb + snd is murdering it rn for me
shadow tulip
I feel you, mata
balmy condor
rtb single handedly is the most polarizing ability a spec has had baseline for years
low girder
Really don't need both in the spec lol
balmy condor
the only thing that I feel came close was stm on priest
low girder
It has enough to do
steep badger
Tried getting back into it but trying to min/max with decent gear felt like playing a twisted version of dance dance revolution with a keyboard
shadow tulip
low girder
S2M was fun if you were only an alt lol.
heavy vessel
Yup. Rtb and pirate killed it for me. I can deal with the pirate thing cuz whatever but legion and bfa rtb was so obnoxious
low girder
It has a cooldown now if you can deal with piano spec
heavy vessel
Now it’s just “spam SS” spec. /boring
steep badger
sub and sin just bring a much better controlled feel
steep badger
same
balmy condor
by a fair margin
shadow tulip
Same
steep badger
nailed it
verbal mantle
steep badger
I think this whole channel agrees with ya
low girder
Also taking tb away and locking it behind 58 was dumb
balmy condor
its called shiv mata
low girder
Prepatch sin feels empty
balmy condor
completely different
low girder
Lol
grim jay
tbf if sub wouldnt be there, I'd still play -15% sin rather than pirate boi
steep badger
^^
balmy condor
yuuuup
steep badger
Nothing was more frustrating than "FINALLY A SICK RTB...oh...mechanics...downtime...killmenow"
balmy condor
I push m+ decently high
wicked knoll
Easier to ping a target and walk away
wicked knoll
I hate m+ outside of necesary progression
wicked knoll
But am big into raid progression xD
shadow tulip
Privilaged
grim jay
last raids I rolled a lot of loot for offspec
raidlead immediately: you wont play sin
😄
balmy condor
at the speed we kill heroic/mythic bosses
there's more issues than the orange parsing sin rogue
steep badger
dat rampup time
steep badger
lets just hope bliz isn't like "ok sin, you've had you're time" for this xpac
low girder
Lol
shadow tulip
lets just hope bliz isn't like "ok sin, you've had you're time" for this xpac
If they do that, ima burn blizzard down
steep badger
seems like they're already doing a pretty good job of that themselves
wicked knoll
Here's the real gamble though
steep badger
Record year in sales / revenue? what do we do? Cut the whole QA team!
shadow tulip
Would be about fucking time to be left in the dust
steep badger
anyway, sin!
wicked knoll
Do you think by the time raid comes out Sin will receive a buff in tuning?
shadow tulip
For the whole expansion
balmy condor
who knows if sin gets buffed
grim jay
sooo. is red rogue a reliable source ? didnt even know him until like 5 min ago.
steep badger
we hope so
shadow tulip
I hope so
wicked knoll
I remember BFA
shadow tulip
steep badger
Sin needs more of a buff than sub needs a nerf atm
wicked knoll
Everyone started sub
balmy condor
@gray fjord are you a reliable source?
steep badger
sub got its beating in tuning
wicked knoll
then sub got pile driven into dirt
verbal mantle
or buff sin and let sub alone cause we fucking suffered during 2 expac okey 
wicked knoll
Another factor outside of raw numbers is skill right?
balmy condor
zeratule's good
steep badger
lmao
balmy condor
yeah
wicked knoll
Like can you play Sin 15% better than sub?
steep badger
he's a pirate tho!
balmy condor
tries his best to get it right
unlike
uh
some other influential youtubers
and streamers
steep badger
ooooo
balmy condor
of scottish descent
steep badger
CRISPEH
grim jay
guess I'ma leave a sub there for support then. so many bad people talking about rogue out there lol
atomic gate
Just got here but seems Sub is above the other 2 specs in DPS by a lot
steep badger
melee afflic lox atchur service
atomic gate
And Sub probably has the best AoE too right?
balmy condor
no
atomic gate
Or does outlaw have sick aoe
steep badger
outlaw
atomic gate
So overall best is just Sub then when you factor it all?
balmy condor
probably outlaw
steep badger
i'd still say subs stronger overall, less you're constant hectic add cleave
steep badger
mm
balmy condor
but sub will probably win on a couple fights
steep badger
dat juicy ST tho
steep badger
lmao
wicked knoll
which is my main alt
steep badger
speaking of, is survival still a spec?
wicked knoll
and seriously considering just main
balmy condor
survival is melee, and melee is suck
steep badger
i got rocked by a survival hunter in world pvp the other day, was super confused
grim jay
just feels like there is nothing going on really compared to mage
steep badger
as sin
steep badger
was mounted, started taking hits, figured i'd brawl with em
balmy condor
you can get rocked by anything in that unbalanced cesspool
low girder
just take reaping flames + drest trinket
steep badger
ended BADLY but looked em up and he was actually hella pvp geared but survival
no idea if its strong vs rogue in general or how it behaves in arena
or if i just played terribly
silent breach
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
steep badger
took a break after 8.1 n came back a month or so ago, just no idea how to open on survival hunters but never really looked into it. Feels like they're unicorns
Love the red rogue's content btw. Super thorough and offers knowlege in digestible portions. Throws it out there that he's pirate main as a disclaimer but super fair when it comes to his spec evaluations. Only con being pirate in my eyes because im unfairly biased against the spec. Some people like cilantro, doesn't make them evil 😄
grim jay
ugh.
Lash the target 3 times, dealing (6% of Attack power) Shadow damage
does that mean its lashing 3 times for 6% each
or 3 times for 6% in total ? 😄
gray fjord
@balmy condor Yeah sorry I was getting groceries and stocked up to binge on leveling. XD
balmy condor
unacceptable
gray fjord
I'd like to think I am, I've spend the last 3 months or so on beta trying to figure out as much as I could about all 3 specs.
balmy condor
imagine having a life
gray fjord
💔
grim jay
stacking up to binge is literally every saturday of mine
gray fjord
But it wasn't really a life! It was still stuff so I could nolife and sit on my PC for 24 hours straight playing instead of working on video things.
gray fjord
Lmao did you really?
balmy condor
yeah
gray fjord
💔
steep badger
final tuning fodder!
balmy condor
I was talking to seli yesterday about how I didn't have beta
gray fjord
I think I got BfA beta like 3 weeks prior or something.
gray fjord
balmy condor
wasn't there on tuesday
gray fjord
You'll get beta at 3PM PST on the 23rd! ^^
slender berry
Everyone gets beta in 2 days
low girder
trueeeeeeeeeeeee
balmy condor
TRUE
gray fjord
slender berry
Yayy
balmy condor
that's a great clickbait title
grim jay
inb4 bellular
balmy condor
"100% guaranteed beta, for free, no scam"
gray fjord
Naw, it needs like the word AMAZING or something in the thumbnail too
low girder
(THIS ACTUALLY WORKS)
gray fjord
I totally want to use "HoF Raiders hate me for telling you this!" in a TN one day
balmy condor
and then you just bust out the 72 font notepad like a 2008 minecraft youtuber
with that one non-copyright music
balmy condor
true
gray fjord
Needs the watermark to be vintage
balmy condor
or hypercam
gray fjord
Oh yeah, another classic.
grim jay
@gray fjord after getting told you are a good source of information, I watched your recent video on covenants and I think its really well made. left you a sub. 😄
@balmy condor best channel hands down tho
low girder
you mean genshin-discussion?
gray fjord
❤️ Much appreciated, Davyn. ^^; I avoid self-plugging because that's highly frowned upon here but I try to chime in and help where I can.
fleet whale
is sin rogue tuned lower than Havoc atm?
fleet whale
and all those havoc dh's are crying....
grim jay
you can reroll
steep badger
It's fine m8, i sort of plugged you with a complimentsult just before you arrived
low girder
lol
balmy condor
gray fjord
@steep badger My favorite kind, as those are the most truthful. gonna go find it now, have some catching up to do on all the channels since I've been out of the house all day. xD
fleet whale
i play in a casual heroic guild that will prolly only do the first few bosses in mythic
grim jay
then you are set
steep badger
hah no worries, it was seconds before you chimed in lol.
fleet whale
and i feel if anything, guilds may try to get ALL rogues reroll
with ranged being how they are
balmy condor
also true
gray fjord
And agreed Cilantro is a solid analogy. Lmao xD @steep badger
fleet whale
DK and DH will be the only melee
balmy condor
I just want to let you guys know MP is technically better than blindside on 2 target
so if we ignore EP existing
MP is meta
fleet whale
#makeblindsidebaseline
balmy condor
esketit
grim jay
I mean
it really doesnt matter if you are only going to clear the first few mythic bosses
no hate
fleet whale
when i made my comment about guilds making rogues reroll
i was talking about cutting edge guilds, not mine lol
fleet whale
feral druids have a brez
balmy condor
I need higher conduit ranks
fleet whale
i have a hard time rerolling to another class
grim jay
where are they guys coming from that say outlul is the most complicated rogue spec tho
fleet whale
and outlaw depending on talents
actually does have a lot of buttons to press
and things to track
fleet whale
it's also close to being global locked
gray fjord
Yeah Outlaw even on launch with like 185 ilvl in most talent builds sits at like 58.9 apm in my sims I think
dry atlas
every spec you just mash 2-3 buttons and press a cooldown every 30-45 and others every 2-3 minutes
imagine arguing about complexity and apm
gray fjord
You mainly want to line up between the eyes and ghostly strike as an ideal thing, and their CDs are close enough (edited)so that's probably one of the most important things to remmeber.
balmy condor
zeratule you take this accursed pirate talk out of my swamp 
gray fjord
💔 t-t
grim jay
I mean outlul is no dh, but high APM should be fairly easy to manage for most people 😄
balmy condor
steep badger
to me pirate is keyboard dance dance revolution after too many redbulls
gray fjord
But yeah I think people just assume outlaw is spam city because assassination is so much more methodical and you pool way more often, something you basically never need to do as outlaw.
steep badger
^^ Playing the classes perfectly I kind of feel like they're all equally complex in their own ways
dry atlas
come join the better spec life, theyre not gonna buff assassination
steep badger
there's just too much cross spec toxicity these days, not in the joking sense we see here.
gray fjord
@steep badger I think a lot of it is people just trolling/joking around with eachother. I try to look at each spec as fairly as possible, even though I do have a preference of my own. Assassination is an entirely different creature which will appeal to the rotation and feel some players want, whereas outlaw or sub won't offer that same flow.
steep badger
oh yeah totally, this disc is pretty healthy compared to what im talking about. I'm talking in game spec shaming between strangers and new players
balmy condor
he doesn't show himself round these here parts
sudden brook
dont bring me into the pits of hell
gray fjord
❤️ LMAO
steep badger
lmao, the virgil avatars perfect
was testing sub myself in an lfr and another sub rogue instance chat called out a sin rogue "why are you playing sin?" said its his first char and his big brother played sin, other sub rogue says "well your big brothers an idiot, git gud" comes with the territory in lfr but yeesh
balmy condor
happens
gray fjord
Yeah LFR isn't exactly the exemplary place for inclusive behavior.
That and usually it's people who see what's 'meta' and if you're not that then uninstall.
Very unfortunate. =/
grim jay
ye know that stuff
dry atlas
that guy probably doesnt even know a single reason as to why sin is "bad"
grim jay
mostly played fire on my mage throughout multiple expacs and people like to trashtalk in lfgs 😄
gray fjord
"X or Y Streamer said so" is probably the first answer.
steep badger
yeah, its basically the olive garden of wow pugging. Nope, he actually had more backstab damage than shadowstrike dmg on nzoth
gray fjord
xD
steep badger
i just did my duty as a self respecting rogue and kept my mouth shut so he keeps on repping the metajumpers
fleet whale
holy hell felhammer is so bad
i simply ask "what are the best talents at level 60 for havoc"
answer i get "just sim"
real bay
hybrid magnet
what do you think sub or assa in first raid ?
fleet whale
Sadly sin isn't even in the spot where it was in HFC
where it was a good progress spec and had a powerful execute niche
marble hemlock
Not good enough, even on a fight like Denathrius
Not with the number difference we're currently seeing
fleet whale
idk if SL zoldyck is a better execute as HFC assassin though
cause you like spammed envenoms non stop back then
marble hemlock
zoldyck+blindside will prolly still not be able to beat sub or outlaw on st
balmy condor
the execute isn't nearly strong enough
to overcome the huge gap
I think people generally see zoldyck and go "wow pog a 30% damage increase"
marble hemlock
yeah like, if it was ~5% behind and then ~5-10% ahead in execute situations, that would be fine
fleet whale
there also really isn't that much synergy with blindside and zoldyck
other than that there are both executes
marble hemlock
theres simply no reason to pick a class for its execute when that execute barely matches other classes regular st
balmy condor
yeah
marble hemlock
and is then worse on the rest of the fight
unless its arms-warriors levels of execute in bfa for example
or fury legion execute
grim jay
fury legion was poggers
steep obsidian
seems a pretty bad tuning problem when sin isnt even good at its niche
balmy condor
sin isn't good at anything
steep obsidian
i know but when its been good its been single target pumping which has made it good
balmy condor
I mean not really
steep obsidian
dont not really me
fleet whale
Sin currently has
steep obsidian
vendetta is tied to one target
balmy condor
sub has been pretty consistently the single target pump spec, but it faced the same bad tuning that sin has atm
fleet whale
ok ish cleave
balmy condor
sin has always been the cleave spec
fleet whale
well, it depends on what era of wow you look at
fleet whale
sins' st profile in general was based around consistent damage
if you look at things historically
the cleave thing is sort of recent
balmy condor
I don't think looking at like pre-wod is worth a shit anymore after legion reworks changed everything
steep obsidian
just make vendetta a self buff
balmy condor
you saw all through legion, sub was the funnel and pump single target spec
fleet whale
wouldn't solve much
balmy condor
even in uldir
fleet whale
if you make vend a self buff
balmy condor
all through bfa even if they weren't just so bad baseline
steep obsidian
would make it less shit
grim jay
always found it pretty interesting that assassination damage profile doesnt really fit its name
steep badger
well again maybe with zoldyck/blindside that's what they're going for. Just not quite there yet
true ingot
How it conducts itself doesn't really fit the name either
fleet whale
it could probably use a revamp... honestly it just feels too feral druid like
true ingot
Sub is a better assassin than assasination.
fleet whale
that's been an issue for rogues for a very long time
the idea of a "subtlety rogue" and "assassination rogue" are very similar
steep badger
bursty and flashy w less margin for error vs sustained and reliable with some room for an oops
grizzled jay
Assassination is "subvertive" killings like poisons, strangulations, etc. whereas Subtlety is more open assassinations
steep badger
poisons/bleeds are where it comes from, least the original design. Crud i remember sin before it got mut
actually i guess anyone that plays classic now would too
marble hemlock
assa hasnt been looked at seriously in 4 expansions
most of the stuff they changed was just how certain stats scaled the spec, and generally boiled down to giving assa more or different ways of generating energy
hasted bleeds, reworked garrote to be baseline instead of stealth-only, stuff like that
steep badger
I think some changes happened going into MOP
marble hemlock
i cant even remember the last time assa got a meaningful rework. think it was from cata -> mop
when they got rid of hunger for blood/taste for blood
fleet whale
wotlk to cata added backstab as an execute
steep badger
dispatch happened around then
fleet whale
and vendetta
marble hemlock
and added mutilate instead of backstab
fleet whale
legion more or less replaced dispatch with garrote out of stealth
marble hemlock
there was virtually no change going into WoD other than make VW 100% instead of 70%, legion made garrote non-stealth but VW only gave 7 energy instead of 10, and bfa gave us hasted bleeds and mastery scaling bleed dmg, not just poisons
fleet whale
and then we've had borrowed stuff like Kingsbane and talents like TB
but def from legion on to now
basically no changes
steep badger
yeah i think it all comes down to how strong bp became
marble hemlock
wod even
fleet whale
i think venomous wounds in wod did nature damage too
marble hemlock
the only change was to give us another out-of-stealth maintenance spell
ye
and it was 10energy
cause we only had rupture
in mop it wasnt even 100% proc-chance
steep badger
would think you could say that for all classes but feels like BP was used too much as a balance piece for sin
fleet whale
but we also had dispatch prcs
and dispatch itself to somewhat make up for the lack of energy
marble hemlock
yeah, wasnt a big fan of old dispatch
fleet whale
i actually liked it a lot
steep badger
I liked that it procced on mut crits, not a static 20 or 40%
marble hemlock
i took a break after highmaul, so no clue how it played then
strange python
i like the flavor of poison and bleeds and think that's still p assasssin
marble hemlock
but the initial mop/early wod dispatch was 
fleet whale
it didn't do much damage back then
steep badger
highmaul....koragh's boot knife.....
fleet whale
but HFC made it hit hard
marble hemlock
the problem with assa is that bleeds for the most part serve no function other than to generate energy. they dont actually deal meaningful dmg by themselves anymore
fleet whale
honestly if bleeds are just gonna be that
would rather have blizz go back to very heavy poison focus, give us a cool and unique execute
marble hemlock
its why exsang is shit, and makes multidotting close to not being worth it
fleet whale
centered around poisons
marble hemlock
in legion we had 2 different builds atleast, with poison vs bleed
fleet whale
have mastery just be poisons again
steep badger
naw theyd need to work a shrouded suf mech back in somehow
again, BP
wish bliz took a larger step back from bp with slands
marble hemlock
in bfa they mashed it all together, mastery now applied to bleeds, haste applied to bleeds, and in the process thy nerfed the numbers so hard that its almost not worth to press garrote or rupture on a second target for dmg gains
fleet whale
i've honestly never been a fan of the bleed focus blizz added in since legion tbh
marble hemlock
legion bleeds were fine, and you could fit an entire build around it with exsang+alacrity
despite the artifact weapon not supporting such a build very much
it was still competitive, without having haste scaling or mastery boosting bleeds
now it has all that, and bleeds are just pointless from a raw dmg throughput PoV
fleet whale
feral druid is there for the bleed focus spec/class
steep badger
maybe we convince every rogue to not play sin in protest til it gets buffed XD
marble hemlock
i mean ive been complaining about it for years at this point
its just uninspired, really
balmy condor
yeah
fleet whale
assassination at this point is def one of blizzard's bastard specs atm
marble hemlock
the duality of the spec with bleeds+poisons used to be respresented fairly well in mop/wod/legion
fleet whale
like how much attention
balmy condor
I haven't been active in here long enough to complain about it more than boomer seli
marble hemlock
where poisons were more catered towards single-target, with bleeds giving the spec a more cleave/aoe centric focus
fleet whale
did the spec even get in SL beta?
fleet whale
i mean yeah sub got some big changes
steep badger
imagine if they got ttb right the way it was originally intended?
fleet whale
so a lot of rogue attention is gonna be put there
marble hemlock
wouldnt matter
balmy condor
we still wouldn't use it
marble hemlock
i highlighted some of the issues in my article a month or two ago
i feel assa has an identity crisis, where the purposes of poison and bleeds are no longer clearly defined as they were in legion
fleet whale
our 50 to 60 perks aren't impressive either tbh
steep badger
I'll take a gander sel, can you link it?
fleet whale
like i would prefer generic % increase of ability perks over most of them
steep badger
nvm found it
marble hemlock
heres my tldr take on it:
assa needs to again be a bit divided in its purposes for bleeds and poisons. all poison centric talents should have a heavier st focus, all bleed-centric mechanics should inherently apply a bit more towards cleave/aoe
as in, multidotting bleeds, crimson tempest, exsanguinate rework should all improve the aoe dps output
whereas focusing on poison dmg like kb, tb, agonizing poison did, they were all singletarget focused
strange python
I get about 25k dmg after my opener poison/bleeds run their course
they do pretty good dmg i think
marble hemlock
i felt that was an intended desing decision in legion, to make this split for aoe/st respectively
and then tehy just mashed it together with no clear vision for bfa
steep badger
didn't venomous wounds originally actually proc for dmg as well as energy? may be crazy here but i feel like it did back in mop
marble hemlock
which worked well enough cause azerite traits fixed some of the inherent concerns
marble hemlock
yes it did
fleet whale
so in a way
rupture scaled with mastery back then
kind of
legion removed VM dealing nature damage
marble hemlock
it had a 70% chance to proc on rupture/garrote ticks, and generated energy and did nature dmg in mop.
in wod it got changed to 100% chance
in legion garrote became a non-stealth rotational ability, they removed VW damage and made it energy only, and the energy value was nerfed
steep badger
ahh yes.
fleet whale
also they increased rupture/garrote damage by a fair amount to make up for the loss of vm damage
steep badger
wondering if bringing back that dmg would help or complicate the current state
balmy condor
wouldn't change much tbh
fleet whale
would make things maybe awkward
balmy condor
well no
fleet whale
considering mastery effects bleeds and poisons now
marble hemlock
yeah
balmy condor
its equal to just buffing rupture and garrote
fleet whale
that would mean mast double dips for our bleeds
marble hemlock
legion had meaningful garrote/rupture dmg numbers, and even in bfa we still have that - but only in pvp
balmy condor
not double dips
marble hemlock
do arenas and suddenly your rupture that you multidot for cleavedmg deals 30% of your overall
steep badger
feels like bliz just got lazy in bfa instead of fixing actual spec issues and just juiced the hell out of borrowed powers, and now we're naked.
fleet whale
blizz was very lazy with class design as a whole in bfa
marble hemlock
that laziness started in legion, not bfa
fleet whale
legion at least had artifacts that built you up
bfa did expose legion shortcomings though as far as class design goes
steep badger
I think they realized the train with BP went off the rails in legion and just ran with it
marble hemlock
its a core problem with rental powers, where they can be easily used to fix core-issues a class encounters and then for a few years it seems that they arent there
steep badger
those artifact talent tree's were cool but totally poisoned the future for expac class building
marble hemlock
it was quite noticeable for assassionation in legion already, that oyu had no meaningful aoe. so they gave us an artifact trait that scaled somewhat well and led to fok-spamming being a viable way to deliver good aoe
then bfa came along, poisoned knives was gone, and our aoe sucked again
steep badger
^^this x 99999k
marble hemlock
so with BoD they brought in echoing blades, which is functionally similar to poisoned knives, and we again got back to spamming fok for aoe dmg
steep badger
then what did they do? slapped in eb
fleet whale
and look at SL
steep badger
yepp
fleet whale
another fok borrowed power
marble hemlock
instead of expanding on the already powerful scent of blood. but eb was just better, didnt have rampup and did more dmg, so scent became obsolete
scent was actually really good in s1
i plaed it with great success while others jumped on the triple SS memes
but scent was much better in largescale sustained aoe
fleet whale
i think i ran 2 SS and one archive or something
marble hemlock
and scent was a welcome trait for anyone doing pvp
fleet whale
seemed to be good in most situations
steep badger
i blame some streamers for the triple ss train
marble hemlock
due to how well rupture scales in pvp
i blame how easy it was to do good dmg with it
and the difficulty of getting high ilvl scent azerite
steep badger
yeah, was gona say i didn't think there was much of a selection of pcs that had it
marble hemlock
it also highlighted the divide for assa of having to force sustained aoe or sustained st, with no middle ground option
and well, all that didnt matter anymore with echoing blades coming
cause it was just a better less ramp~y scent
fleet whale
is there any spec in the game
marble hemlock
same as wits was a bandaid fix to outlaw being shit in aoe
balmy condor
yea, sin
fleet whale
i mean other than sin lol
marble hemlock
well, sin is a prime example. usually others still had to optimize for aoe, but not to this extent
balmy condor
tbh they have some serious issues with making dots work in m+ and single target at the same time without shit going crazy
marble hemlock
since a lot of classes dont have this "spammy" builder+generator gameplay with distinct builers and generators for st and aoe only, but instead have their aoe abilities in their st rotation regardless. so any improvements to something like fists of fury or rampage or eyebeam would still apply to ST
balmy condor
like aff lock in legion, insane
steep badger
well, some specs are just better at one or the other. Shouldn't be MILES apart but then you get these ppl
balmy condor
dot classes in bfa m+, not insane
steep badger
marble hemlock
i mean thats why assa bleeds and poisons are this shit
cause blizz took a sledgehammer to any and all dot classes
fleet whale
Auto attack is assassin's fantasy in SL
marble hemlock
due to how good they were at the end of legion
balmy condor
ye
marble hemlock
affli lock, boomy, assarogue and SP were all insanely strong in legion
balmy condor
afflic didn't make a comeback
marble hemlock
so multidotting got gutted hard, to the point where SP was pointless in uldir and needed a mid-expac rework to become viable again, warlocks didnt touch affli the entire expac and boomy has been hanging in and essentially stayed strong due to them not being a fully-fledged dot class to begin with
fleet whale
wasn't aff good for like pure ST though in bfa
marble hemlock
but multidotting as a boomy was also entirely pointless
balmy condor
afflic was trash all the way to the end
not m+ tho
aff was okay single target
and that's it
steep badger
unh dk's
balmy condor
unholy was only good because of quadratic scaling
marble hemlock
or well, was until prepatch
steep badger
yeah, using it as an example
marble hemlock
they just had exponential scaling through a simple azerite trait, which was a bandaid fix
steep badger
was great in....wrath.
marble hemlock
hell, wits was a bandaid fix that catapulted outlaw from being unplayable in m+ to being the best melee spec - with a single trait