assassination

[coral abyss]

Leveling a sin rogue atm, what talents would you guys take for leveling in dungeons?

[balmy condor]

Pugging keys is painful like that

@coral abyss subterfuge probably be the only change

[coral abyss]

I know nothing about whats standard, only started a couple days ago to level xD

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[drifting cloud]

[balmy condor]

@coral abyss ep, subt, vigor, cheat death/leeching, iron wire, toxic blade, poison bomb

Probably the play while leveling

[coral abyss]

Alright I'll write that down, thanks a bunch :D

[balmy condor]

Cause it’s kinda

[drifting cloud]

what if they notice 2s before he starts the key, make sure you properly int by running out at the start and respeccing outside

better safe than sorry dude!

[balmy condor]

People still accept rogues plenty

[drifting cloud]

then youll be able to time that +8 tol dagor finally with that mentality

[balmy condor]

You’re playin with some clowns then man idk

[vital haven]

rogue dmg is more then fine

[balmy condor]

Yeah

Is it fun

[delicate bone]

i never have an issue getting into keys as a rogue lol

[vital haven]

low keys =/= 24-25s

no lol

[delicate bone]

i feel like, if youre doing 24-25 like you claim, the people in the group are aware that you dont actually play outlaw well before the key starts

[vital haven]

i mean it depedns on your perspective

[balmy condor]

Ok so you’re just trolling right

[vital haven]

but that is objectively not true

[balmy condor]

[delicate bone]

i really think youre just trying to troll everyone

[balmy condor]

Why do you find pleasure in trolling like this

Like I’m actually curious

What are you getting out of this

[delicate bone]

i mean

who cares?

find a solid group to run with consistently that wont care

[coral abyss]

I'd suggest not running with randoms for 24+ if that's your issue

[delicate bone]

oh yes

mb

every goupd is ass

[balmy condor]

Yeah why are you even trying to pug past a 20

[delicate bone]

thats a good point lol

youre already setting yourself up for failure

[normal olive]

[balmy condor]

“There’s no solid groups”

Is basically the worst argument imaginable here

[normal olive]

what shitshow did i miss

[balmy condor]

Cause the alternative is pugging

[normal olive]

[delicate bone]

you forgot the part that "almost nobody plays m+ anymore"

[balmy condor]

The majority of 4.5 people pug huh

[normal olive]

[balmy condor]

You underestimate people having friends though

[delicate bone]

im curious what youre io profile looks like, and if you really do the keys your claiming

[coral abyss]

Theres more than 50 groups, and those who do run generally run as a set team at that point...

[delicate bone]

becasue im sorry, but it sounds like you hve no idea how any of it actually works

[balmy condor]

I’m running 22/23’s with a random group of people I found in a different discord

And our core group is a bdk and a Resto shammy

And I play sin

[normal olive]

[delicate bone]

i run with a variety of the mythic raiders from my guild

its not verry hard to get a consistent group

and push with them

[balmy condor]

Like idk why you think that premades don’t exist

Is your friends list not full of tanks and healers you added after a good run?

[normal olive]

Henlo dear discord peple, i do 15s, i do no dmg Thanks for coming to my ted talk

[delicate bone]

i rarely use group finder unless im bored and on at a very weird time

[coral abyss]

its harder to get a consistent group of people who ahve potential.... over pugs?

[balmy condor]

Okay I ask again, what are you getting out of trolling like this

[normal olive]

[balmy condor]

Does this make you happy?

[delicate bone]

i really think this guy runs 10s

[balmy condor]

Then you need to take a hard look at reality

Cause the reality you experience

Is not the reality we all experience

[fiery robin]

I mean all you have to do is link your armory if you want anyone to believe you.

[balmy condor]

^ yeah that too

Cause we’re doubting that you understand what’s going on

[vital haven]

-.-

[fiery robin]

The classic "but you'll stalk me in game" excuse for not linking armory lmoa

[vital haven]

lol

[fiery robin]

If you're doing the runs that you say you do then there's nothing for us to point out. The only reason you'd be hiding your armory is because you know we'll figure out that youre lying.

[balmy condor]

How does that lead to drama

I can’t even remember what I had for dinner last night

You think I’m gonna be able to stalk people?

[delicate bone]

like i said

10s

[dark crag]

Not important enough to get stalked or sexy enough

[fiery robin]

Lol yeah Born is full of shit.

[balmy condor]

If you think I dislike anyone based on anything other than the kindness of their heart and how they treat others

You’ve never been in this channel

[delicate bone]

then prove it

[balmy condor]

That’s a good sign

[surreal solar]

Guys, i have an idea, we block him

[dark crag]

I wonder why

[delicate bone]

wait

i can see why

lmfoa

[balmy condor]

At this time, I would also like to to politely ask everyone to get out of #assassination with this

:)

It’s not spec discussion

[delicate bone]

i mean it was originally

but i agree

[balmy condor]

Go complain in #wow-general if you hate the system

[dark crag]

What even was the topic?

[normal olive]

i look away 5 minutes and everything turns to shit

[delicate bone]

him not being able to get past +10s

[normal olive]

[balmy condor]

No, I just don’t believe toxicity has to be how you define yourself as a person

[delicate bone]

amen

[balmy condor]

But again, we’re far away from sin conversation

So I’m not gonna stoke this further

I recommend we let this go :)

[delicate bone]

fact

then dont play it

then play it

[swift timber]

if people time 28's with it then it can't be that bad can it

[delicate bone]

^^

[fiery robin]

He wouldn't know

[normal olive]

But don't worry these high key groups are pugs

[swift timber]

well that's just not true

[outer lotus]

imagine calling 24s low keys when you have only done "a couple of those"

[fiery robin]

You haven't done any.

[delicate bone]

youre not doing a 24 without coordination

idc who you are

[coral abyss]

bruh do you even know the freehold los point on first boss

[shy dust]

How is this relevant to assassination

[delicate bone]

it isnt

[coral abyss]

It's not, the guy doesnt post his char for some fuck off rreason

i asked one thing

[balmy condor]

Like I said guys

[coral abyss]

not 5

[balmy condor]

It’s not going anywhere

Just let it die

It’s not worth it bois

[delicate bone]

Necro or nightfae for sin? ;D

[balmy condor]

Now that I can get behind

[fiery robin]

The amusing thing is that we can let it go, but Born is now forever known as a liar lol.

[delicate bone]

^

[balmy condor]

I feel like night fae with some legendaries

Might actually be decent

[swift timber]

do you make a new discord every 3 days or what

well that's just a bit insecure

[delicate bone]

yea nightfae looks really cool on Sub tbh

[fiery robin]

Pretty sure I am going necro

[balmy condor]

Hoping for bone spike nerfs though

[delicate bone]

i tihnk im going necro to

too

[balmy condor]

Like it plays cool

But it’s just so strong atm

[delicate bone]

seems like a good balance for raid/m+

[fiery robin]

If bone spike is nerfed heavily then night fae for sure

[royal lantern]

Bruh,im home for 3min and can just say,wtf are you smoking

I need that shit,it seems strong af

[outer lotus]

damn this guy knows boss mechanics

he must be an mdi player

[delicate bone]

jdotb made a rogue

you didnt know?

[balmy condor]

Idk how the balance at the end will be though

[normal olive]

I really hope nighfae is good, it looks funny to use

[balmy condor]

Cause the soulbinds actually seem kinda insane

[delicate bone]

can someone at least mute this guy?

[fiery robin]

Again, what does that have to do with sin

[delicate bone]

dude

[balmy condor]

@arctic walrus I tried, but it’s green boi time now

[delicate bone]

do you have friends?

[fiery robin]

What a surprise

[delicate bone]

its not hard to be a decent person man

i know your keyboard makes you feel invincible

[balmy condor]

Being a decent person is actually one of the hardest things to do as a human

[royal lantern]

Allright

Now you are just a bait

[balmy condor]

But that’s a high brow discussion and STILL NOT SIN

[delicate bone]

we need a greenieeee

[fiery robin]

Imagine being this desperate for attention... in a discord of random people lol.

[fleet whale]

in what world are 24 keys low level keys?

[outer lotus]

which you arent

[arctic walrus]

!mute @strange python 6h Dont bother bringing politics just to try and spark a reaction. You were given time to readjust yourself and you keep making it worse for yourself

[fiery robin]

Oof

[balmy condor]

Thank you vel

[fiery robin]

Taking bets on how long until his new account is here

[fleet whale]

lol at 24 keys being low....and 29 keys being high

like does he know what % of player base even does 29+ keys

[balmy condor]

It’s fine, just another bait conversation

[outer lotus]

i mean 24 keys are easy for my group but that doesnt make them "low keys"

[balmy condor]

We know better

[delicate bone]

i feel like theres very few people in this discord that can do 29s, if any lol

[fiery robin]

I haven't done 20+ keys. Im a +15 plebberino.

[delicate bone]

nothing wrong with that either

[fleet whale]

for most people there is little reason to really push past 15

[balmy condor]

What conduits you guys most excited about

[fiery robin]

The ones that make me OP in pvp

[delicate bone]

yea, anything above 15 is essentially ego and just enjoying pushing keys

[fleet whale]

hopefully the poison damage and fok conduit

[dark crag]

+15 pugs are the real high keys

[normal olive]

Is there a 1 second cd reduction conduit for sprint?

[fleet whale]

can let us have some form of aoe

[delicate bone]

lolol +15 pugs are 10 times harder than +20 with a group

[balmy condor]

I wonder how bad the “i need to do pvp for PVE conduits” or other way around will be

[royal lantern]

Mate,i can tell you the hardest key possible in the game

[balmy condor]

Cause it might be like bfa where you need conflict/blood right

[outer lotus]

the key to your heart

[royal lantern]

Tyrannical week, +7-9 shrine

[delicate bone]

@balmy condor im wondering hte same thing, if there will be something like BotE

[undone pasture]

a +9 pugs that needs 2k+ rio is literally the hardest key in the game

[royal lantern]

Its legit impossible too pug

[dark crag]

1 mob casts an avoidable ground cast, you can bet they kick it

[royal lantern]

You wont kill the 2nd boss cus nobody interupts

[dark crag]

All at the same time

[balmy condor]

Guys pls not in here

[royal lantern]

Im serious about that whisp

:D

I tried that on my fresh 120hunter,its really not possible too pug

[balmy condor]

I’m just tired of pug and low key and io after that guy

:p

[undone pasture]

@royal lantern specially if its a bursting week

[gray shard]

is bone spike the go to for sin aswell ?

[fiery robin]

Right now it seems so. Just gotta wait to see if they tune it.

[surreal solar]

bone spike seems strong on its own, slaughter does very very well with its respective conduit

[balmy condor]

yeah

that's the tldr of everything tbh

[slim pebble]

Do we have a post anywhere about covenant and which one looks to be the best for us

[balmy condor]

Not yet

Atm it’s bone spike

[fleet whale]

bonespike is the most versatile, but arguably has the worst soulbinds

[delicate bone]

finally just got beta access lol

[vestal wren]

have fun

[grizzled jay]

@fleet whale Worst Soulbinds and worst Potency Conduit in the game lmao

[royal harness]

any idea if blindside will affect slaughter ?

[balmy condor]

yes

blindside is ambush and ambush is slaughter

[royal harness]

ok so it completly replaces it in ur spellbook ?

[balmy condor]

that, I do not know

[royal harness]

k ty

[surreal solar]

i hope it functions like that clean into release, makes it look good on Blindside

[grizzled jay]

it does not replace it in your spellbook

[candid jasper]

I was under the impression we got deadly brew back in shadowlands but i can't see it on the spell book

[balmy condor]

deadly brew?

[candid jasper]

Yeah

[surreal solar]

pvp talent @balmy condor

Deadly also Applies Wound

[balmy condor]

oh

ye dunno

pvp kek

[surreal solar]

probs a question for the pvp lads chris

[candid jasper]

Will give them a shout

[fleet whale]

deadly brew doesn't exist anymore

[surreal solar]

it comes back in SL

but altered

[candid jasper]

@fleet whale is wowhead wrong? :/

[fleet whale]

it's not in the pvp talents on ptr atm

note that sometimes blizz updates things for abilities that have been removed

[surreal solar]

ptr, not beta

this is an SL return

i dont think it'd be on the ptr

[balmy condor]

class changes are all on ptr

unless its locked behind a level requirement

[candid jasper]

Ahh, I'm on beta atm

[royal harness]

does slaughter poison get the same benefits as deadly poison when it comes to passives? like venomous wounds, assa specc mastery etc ? i guess it doesnt get increased damage from shiv now since its shadow damage instead of nature right ?

[balmy condor]

yep

its coded to be identical I think

[royal harness]

does it get increased by shiv (old toxic blade effect) even though its shadow ?

[balmy condor]

I would assume so, but I can't verify that

no beta lul

[royal harness]

kk 😄

[silent dawn]

is there a minimum amount of mastery i should shoot for?

is im stacking haste

[low girder]

no, there's no breakpoints or anything. just grab some, sim the upgrades

[fleet whale]

umm you're forgetting about the biggest breakpoint

34% crit

[normal olive]

[low girder]

[shadow wedge]

[charred ermine]

Whats lookin to be the top 2 covenants rn?

[balmy condor]

bone spike or slaughter

but night fae with some of the stealth legendaries should be on your radar

[dusky moon]

slaughter looks stupid

[charred ermine]

i wanna play bastion or venthry :C

venthyr

i hate fkn necro

[balmy condor]

bastion is probably not happening

[low girder]

kyrian ability is uh, bad

[charred ermine]

yeah ik

haha

sadly

prob rollin venthyr then

[low girder]

maybe the soulbind will be enough to make it somewhat competitive but idk

prolly not

[charred ermine]

cba to play legion sim

[dusky moon]

Is slaughter supposed to remove deadly poison so envenom does not work for 5 minutes?

da hell i'm supposed to use for finisher?

[balmy condor]

why would removing deadly poison make envenom not work

poisons don't affect our finisher logic

[dusky moon]

sec

[balmy condor]

and that disables envenom? interesting

well either way, that doesn't matter

cause slaughter is the same as deadly

[dusky moon]

dunno, just keep getting this error

[crimson palm]

Apply deadly first and try slaughter

[grizzled jay]

Kyrian has the best Soulbinds so if ER gets buffed

It will probably get looked at

[dusky moon]

applying deadly removes slaugher buff, using slaughter removed deadly buff

[grizzled jay]

read Slaughter's tooltip

[dusky moon]

okay, in combat log env it does damage, but keeps showing this error message, must be a bug then

[ionic vault]

How do you determine if you should get Strikethrough or Severe? Simulation gives me the same result with both

[balmy condor]

seems like its an intended reminder to apply poisons

[ionic vault]

Im currently at 60.6% crit

[grizzled jay]

then take whichever

[balmy condor]

but might not be implemented properly

take strikes

[grizzled jay]

Usually it's slightly more Strk3 than Sev3

[balmy condor]

that's a lot of crit

[ionic vault]

alright

[grizzled jay]

4-4 is 'common' but most sims want 5-3

6-2 isn't uncommon either

esp with spyglass

[balmy condor]

whats the 9th corruption

[dusky moon]

if you wanna stay < 30 corruption, then none

[balmy condor]

you mean <40?

[dusky moon]

well, 3+5 would be total 25 corruption next week

maybe rank 2 strikethrough to stay under 40

but the eye is annoying

[low girder]

rank 2 is 15, that would be exactly 40

do not

[balmy condor]

ye

I think sub 40 these days is kinda weird tho

[grizzled jay]

depends if you are still progging or not i guess

[low girder]

not if you're me

[grizzled jay]

i run 43 rn

[low girder]

under 40 club always

[dusky moon]

in 2-3 weeks it would not matter

[grizzled jay]

im 4-4 and a gushing wounds

[balmy condor]

43

[grizzled jay]

🙂

(it's also because my last Sev3 is on a 475 pair of boots i cannot equip til I put a socket on them)

so i just put GW on the 465s i had on

[sand heath]

Sounds like a feel rather then a sim?

[grizzled jay]

what does

[tropic charm]

I asked this a little bit ago but kinda forgot, CD usage for N’Zoth is pull and when he becomes attackable, correct?

[balmy condor]

pretty much yeah

[tropic charm]

Okay thank you 🙂

[grizzled jay]

@tropic charm If you are running CLF, use it as you are leaving Psychus 1

If you use it on pull it isn't up for Ego 1

[granite owl]

So has anyone figured out what the best covenant is for pvp?

[balmy condor]

probably slaugher from the looks of it

[granite owl]

Serrated Bone Spike looks really good to though

[balmy condor]

damage wise sure

[granite owl]

oic it sucks healing

[balmy condor]

but I think it can be dispelled, and the healing from slaughter is just better I would think

really is a question for the #pvp nerds

[granite owl]

didnt realize that was a channel, thanks!

[slate drift]

Looking at maining rogue for shadowlands. Assass is whats most familiar with me. Is there any opinions on it with the SnD returning in SL. I heard its just bloat. Last I played assass youd just throw up a 1 or 2 combo point SnD and refresh it with envenom

[balmy condor]

yeah its something you'll actively need to maintain like rupture

the damage it gives is good, it just doesn't add any pacing or gameplay affect to the spec

so it feels pretty bad to hit for most people

[slate drift]

Statistically Assass is usually a safe spec to raid as, can we assume that will continue?

[low girder]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[balmy condor]

probably will be fine

but if you're top end, I think there's definitely questions rising about how viable rogue as a class is

[fleet whale]

we really don't bring that much to raid

[balmy condor]

yeah

cloak is being indirectly nerfed by raid mechanics more and more every tier

[fleet whale]

it's something a lot of players seem to overlook.. even a lot of rogue players

and so is feint

[balmy condor]

vial got nerfed into shadowlands as well

[fleet whale]

well a lot of classes got self healing nerfed

so that's a more general nerf imo, but still hurts

[balmy condor]

yeah just saying there's nothing we stand out for anymore

[fleet whale]

people always say that rogues are a lock for mythic progress but idk anymore

[low girder]

we're probably still the most durable melee, but yeah, kinda it

[fleet whale]

of course if you are a skilled player it won't really matter what class you play

[balmy condor]

evasion isn't a physical damage immunity 95% of the time because of dodge and stuff

cloak isn't very useful anymore

vial isn't a strong self heal

[fleet whale]

but i think people greatly overhype rogue raid utility

[balmy condor]

really just cheat death and feint we have going for us

[fleet whale]

if we don't have top end damage, there isn't really a reason to bring a rogue

[slate drift]

lol we could be enhance shamans tho 😛

[fleet whale]

maybe, enhance's main issue is that it is a melee spec with a ranged spec option

but even then they at least have lust/hero, and a healing off spec

paladin's could be quite useful in the raid with all those bleeds

[balmy condor]

and windfury

which keeps getting buffed apparently

[fleet whale]

we have great dungeon utility, little raid utility

[balmy condor]

they also have spirit walk

and astral shift is a pretty good damage reduction

removing all movement impairing effects, with a speed boost, and then being able to go into ghost wolf

is pretty good

not to mention niche with purge/cleanse, reincarn abuse, hex, and they have an aoe stun with capacitor totem, and tremor totem

forgot about those

enhance actually has a lot of really good utility

the reason you don't see them is because they're weaker, and anything they can do, ele/resto does too

[slate drift]

Enhance arguably has the worst survivability in the game now

[fleet whale]

and our soothe utility which was already going to be niche anyway

can't be used for utility (for sin anyway)

[slate drift]

made worse that they cant spam instant heals anymore

man now your making me 2nd guess swapping to rogue lol

[thorn plover]

from a melee pov, warrior and dh will basically almost virtually occupy 2 of ~5-6 spots

[slate drift]

I played enhance/ret this expac. really been wanting to play rogue since MoP was the last time I played it as a main

[opaque tree]

Did SnD just get nerfed to 20% increased attack speed, down from 50%?

I was on MMO-champion, that's how it read there...

[balmy condor]

its 50% + 20% for sin

[opaque tree]

https://beta.wowdb.com/spells/344362-slice-and-dice#35679-35755

doesn't say that. Just says 20%

[vital haven]

that just rank 2

Slice and Dice increases attack speed by an additional 20%.

additional

sin only though

[opaque tree]

I dunno... that wording is kind of off. Since it can be taken as it the spell just increases your attack speed by an additional amount. Seeing as it's "rank 2" though. I guess that makes sense.

so with SnD we're going to have 70% increased attack speed? That seems kind of insane.

[balmy condor]

yes

70%

[astral leaf]

It’s to make up for sin not having any energy regen related to auto attacking, so they have to make the spell worth pushing

[opaque tree]

Yeah, pretty lazy.

Also about Slaughter - I'm sorry if this has been brought up countless times. I see the attack power gain from the ability is the same as Ambush, awards the same combo points, and also requires stealth. The only difference is that I see you get healing from it. Am I missing something here in the tooltip that makes this worth taking, ever?

[astral leaf]

There’s a conduit with huge synergy for it, but it’ll take a few ranks of that conduit before slaughter passes bone spike

[opaque tree]

does it increase the shadow damage over time on it or something?

[balmy condor]

we don't know

well the conduit we know

but the poison is identical to deadly atm

[astral leaf]

The conduit is related to the damage you deal with the cast I think

I don’t have it in front of me and I don’t really remember the details of it

[balmy condor]

damage and crit cahnce

and it doubles with slaughter poison active

[vital haven]

so are 24 and 25s high keys or not?

kek

[balmy condor]

nairda pls

[vital haven]

im sorry lol

[drowsy warren]

So 100% crit?

[balmy condor]

the max is 40%

so 100% more

is another 40%

[drowsy warren]

There is no way it works the same in pvp

[modern schooner]

@balmy condor Slaughter looks amazing

Youtubers make it sound like Spike is god's gift to men but that sounds pretty powerful

[balmy condor]

.....I agree?

I think spike is getting nerfed as well

[fallow otter]

Where do we sign a petition for Kingsbane as a talent and to scrap sin snd

[opaque tree]

^

hate slice and dice

[fallow otter]

SL sin is a joke

[opaque tree]

never liked it, even back in wrath where you refreshed it with envenom. Just bloat

[vital haven]

shit

they should bring that back

envenom refreshes slice and dice

[fallow otter]

Im all for that also

Where is the sign location

Send me location

*khabib accent *

[fleet whale]

but SnD is "iconic"

[opaque tree]

Even that is pretty stupid though. Because you have it on your bars just to use it one time on every single fight, because it's easy to keep up. Honestly it was a waste

I'd actually prefer Hunger for Blood. lmao

cost no combo points, just energy

[balmy condor]

just be zempai

and click it

from your spellbook

[vital haven]

better yet

type /cast Slice and Dice

[opaque tree]

SnD is just boring and not engaging... also the animation is hilariously stupid... no idea why you punch the air. Maybe they'll change that?

[balmy condor]

make a macro to /cast Slice and Dice

and put that on your bars

so you can click it

[opaque tree]

lol

[balmy condor]

[icy ember]

[fleet whale]

how about that Toxic Blade talent were supposed to get?

[opaque tree]

yupppp

still waiting

[fleet whale]

but nah, we have alacrity instead, easy solution for blizz

completely passive talent that's op

[opaque tree]

Anyone here played beta?

[balmy condor]

rogues don't get beta

[fleet whale]

sadly i have not. I've been playing dollar store beta (ptr)

I got in the last two expansions and actually bothered to give feedback smh

[fallow otter]

Yep played it quite alot

[icy ember]

ye i've been blessed w/beta, but sin hasnt really changed

[fallow otter]

I consider it alot

[fleet whale]

wish i could give feedback....

[fallow otter]

Cleared all the dungeons etc

[icy ember]

i played it during one raid and it was pretty much keep slice and di 💤 up

[fleet whale]

when looking at the feedback in beta rogue forums....

like... why

[fallow otter]

Sin is a snooze literally nothing to do

Sub is very fun

[fleet whale]

most of the feedback on the rogue forums is so bad....

Sin is fun with blindside

[fallow otter]

Outlaw is starved of energy and I hate

It

Sin is fun with blindside
@fleet whale that's a stretch imo

[icy ember]

so is sin tbh

[opaque tree]

is blindside the way to go, or elaborate planning still at the top?

[fleet whale]

early on it's looking like blindside

[balmy condor]

especially with slaughter

[fleet whale]

cause ambush actually deal damage, and ep uptime is gonna be low

if anything it will be blindside vs MP

cause of poison conduits

[balmy condor]

ye

[opaque tree]

really...

so EP is the worst to take in that row? I did not see that coming

[balmy condor]

EP is only as good as its uptime and what its buffing

[fleet whale]

yeah it is. also note that ep got other indirect nerfs too

[icy ember]

nah it isnt, but it is much closer than before

[balmy condor]

poisons, especially with the SND buff

are actually quite good

[fleet whale]

stuff like SS is gone

[balmy condor]

^

we're going to a slow poison build

[fleet whale]

poisons appear to be a higher part of damage

which makes mp better

[balmy condor]

that means free gcds from blindside and poison damage is much better

than 10% all damage sometimes

[opaque tree]

I'm not really a fan of blindside so hopefully MP will be at the top with slaughter

[fleet whale]

well if slaughter is top

you're taking blindside lol

[opaque tree]

MP won't affect slaughter?

thought it would

[fleet whale]

it will, but slaughter is literally only good with blindside

[balmy condor]

the slaughter poison is identical to deadly atm

[opaque tree]

oh, because it replaces ambush, that's right

[fleet whale]

and cause of the conduit

[balmy condor]

the conduit makes the ambush part good

yeah

[fleet whale]

and sin kind of lacks good conduits atm

[opaque tree]

great.

[fleet whale]

the poison damage one is good

the slaughter damage one is good

other than that... you have one that makes one mut deal more damage with a garrote cast

or an aoe trait

[opaque tree]

saw that

is the poison damage one the instant poison?

[fleet whale]

yeah it's non periodic

still good though

[opaque tree]

yeah. saw that one

[balmy condor]

should be really good with snd

[fleet whale]

and zodyck

[low girder]

The scaling would have to be so off, but I hope we never scale to be garroting on cd with that conduit

Lol

[fleet whale]

would rather take the FoK conduit if i'm going theotar

three potency conduits there

[opaque tree]

We seem to be getting a bit more in terms of rotation now.. almost getting to the point of too many abilities. I like a lot, but when they don't "feel" impactful it makes the gameplay dull. I just it's just because SnD feels underwhelming.

[balmy condor]

its literally just maintenance and shiv tho

[opaque tree]

omg I forgot about shiv...

[balmy condor]

take the maintenance away

what do you have

you have mutilate to build, shiv on cooldown, envenom to spend

that's it

[fleet whale]

i would just replace snd with something more interesting

rupture and garrote are fine as is shiv

[balmy condor]

sin is a negative IQ spec

[vital haven]

im actually salty the second to last talent row is now just alacrity

[low girder]

Like what though

[opaque tree]

buffs you apply to yourself don't feel as good as applying dots and envenoms, personally

[vital haven]

exsang is dead

the other talent i dont even know the name of

[fleet whale]

Kingsbane even though a lot of people don't like it apparently

[vital haven]

thats how dead that talent is

[fleet whale]

i really enjoyed the dual mini cd playstyle sin had in antorus

[low girder]

Nah lots do

I'm the weird one

[balmy condor]

good thing you're a blue name nairda

[vital haven]

venom rush

[fleet whale]

Shiv also feels kind of ass to press

[balmy condor]

kingsbane is the crowd favorite btw

[vital haven]

i actually had to go to wowhead

[balmy condor]

like

everyone wants kingsbane back

[fleet whale]

i mean i know it doesn't mean that much but the initial hit could hit a bit harder imo

[low girder]

Everyone but me lol

[fleet whale]

Seli and miz don't

and guy isn't a fan of it either

[balmy condor]

toxic blade is kingsbane

[fleet whale]

kingsbane is toxic blade

[balmy condor]

they realistically do the same thing

[fleet whale]

cause kingsbane came first

[low girder]

It's a cool idea, you just never thought about it by playing properly

[balmy condor]

people just enjoyed seeing the scaling and the fantasy and the new icon and shiny artifact

[low girder]

Imo

[fleet whale]

it had a cool animation and poison affect too, but like i said i enjoyed the dual mini cd playstyle

even if said cds were very similar

[vital haven]

idk

i liked the fact that toxic blade and exsang changed your playstyle in different ways

[fleet whale]

i guess a suggestion i could make is two charges of shiv to return to that playstyle?

[vital haven]

now its just boring alacrity

[fleet whale]

yeah alac kind of sucks

[vital haven]

so you had to choose one or the othert

[fleet whale]

because it basically kills that whole row

[low girder]

i'd rather they just pull TB out of shiv

[balmy condor]

tbh I would let shiv be a utility button, kingsbane stand alone as a TB replacement, replace venom rush with a kingsbane talent. Take seli's idea for PB where its an on-use, replace hidden blades with a weaker version of poisoned knives that we had in legion

[low girder]

combining our enrage dispel that's rarely used with a dps cd

[fleet whale]

yeah shiv should stay utility

[low girder]

sucks dick

[vital haven]

whispyr you are a goddam genius

i agree with that entire paragraph

[opaque tree]

They did say there were going to replace alacrity at some point, right? It was like a placeholder or something... Now they just decided to keep it? Or no one really knows?

[balmy condor]

quick pin it pin it

[fleet whale]

blizz kind of forgot about rogues

[low girder]

no, the original plan was to just have a thing that amps shiv

but we never got it

so now we have alacrity still

[fleet whale]

we have two total blue posts

[vital haven]

might not be a popular thing to say ehre

[fleet whale]

one of them were for our "new" talents

[vital haven]

but rogues dont really need that much attention

[fleet whale]

the other one was literally about wound poison

[low girder]

compared to other classes, no

but we do require more than 2 blue posts about nothing

[balmy condor]

WOW NAIRDA THATS SUCH AN UNPOPULAR OPINION HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT I HATE YOU NOW >:(

[fleet whale]

things for sin are starting to feel stale though

[low girder]

like, it works

but there are some glaring issues

[vital haven]

@balmy condor

[low girder]

and they haven't said shit

[fleet whale]

spec has been too similar for too long, and the few changes feel negative

[balmy condor]

I agree tho

Sin it fine

[fleet whale]

they could keep the foundation of sin there

[low girder]

also some actual fucking posts about our bugs

would be very nice

[balmy condor]

Sin is a spec that just works baseline

[fleet whale]

cause it's a great foundation

but just something to spice it up

[balmy condor]

It’s boring

[low girder]

instead of things just randomly disappearing one build

[balmy condor]

But it has its niche

[idle prairie]

Sin needs another ability to add to rotation, with some passive to actually spice our sustained up. It doesn't need to be insane, just something interesting. 2 expansions without change is fucking tiresome.

[vital haven]

GIVE US SHROUDED SUFFOCATION

cant belive we didnt get it

[fleet whale]

a lot of people are hyped for sub now though

[low girder]

i'm hyped to not be playing sin another 2 years

more than anything

even a fun spec gets old, you know

[opaque tree]

this might be the first expansion that I'm starting to cringe at first tier. Usually they change things around and smooth out rotations etc. But, everyone is saying Assassin doesn't "feel" good right now. I've always enjoyed the methodical playstyle but I guess I'll know after a few weeks.

[vital haven]

shrouded suff is so good im honestly disgusted when i garrote and i only get 1 cp

[low girder]

^

[vital haven]

its like UGH

i retch

[fleet whale]

give garrote 2 cp baseline from stealth

[idle prairie]

Even if it only gave 1 extra CP, it would be a great addition.

[low girder]

dude rolling garrotes on 3 targets

[fleet whale]

havoc was able to cry their way to a scuffed furious gaze

[low girder]

and ending with 3 CP

is actual garbage

[fleet whale]

we can cry our way to a scuffed SS

[low girder]

i went back to try DD build on ptr

and i cried

[fleet whale]

have a hard time trying these builds in ptr

cause you know, azerite bug

[low girder]

yeah it sucks lol

[balmy condor]

Build SS into subt, replace ma with an aoe rupture spread ability like the toxic blade legendary, buff nightstalker but make it only apply to rupture

[idle prairie]

Hey guys, member Exanguinate spec in legion?

[fleet whale]

not really

wasn't played much past pre patch

[low girder]

i think it should also apply to CT if you do that

would be kind of interesting

NS that is

[fleet whale]

flapjack was the only rogue who played exsang in legion i think

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[idle prairie]

It was insane for M+ tf are you smoking

[balmy condor]

I can get behind that

[low girder]

subbeam was talking about seli experimenting with that at one point

CT nightstalker would be real fun

[fleet whale]

it was not "insane" in M+ cause sin wasn't an insane spec

people just used the poison build in M+ in legion with poison knife traits

and prayed for PB rng

[low girder]

t21 sin m+

the most degen thing i've ever played

[idle prairie]

I literally remember using exang and being so far above everyone else in my emerald nightmare runs it was beautiful

[low girder]

EN i only remember the first couple weeks playing outlaw and being top ST

and then got like a 30% nerf

f

[idle prairie]

I honestly stopped raiding after Nighthold came out, guild died and I couldn't be assed to find a new one to raid. EN was my time to shine.

[low girder]

were we not agonizing in EN?

i honestly don't remember

at all

that tier was awful lol

[idle prairie]

Not that I felt. I thought it was pretty fun tbh

[low girder]

i remember helya well enough

but nothing really before that

[idle prairie]

Cenarius could die in a hole, but rest was pretty fun.

[low girder]

i do remember adding like an hour to raid after cenarius went down because xavius was free as fuck

the only time we ever did that

i'm sure i can go check my logs and find out

ah yeah we were exsang, with the whole blood of the assassinated procs

now i remember

[idle prairie]

I'm having vietnam flashbacks of Cenarius. Being stuck on that prick for a month.

[frigid kestrel]

what covenant looks to be the go to for sin currently?

[balmy condor]

bone spike

slaughter looks good with the conduit though

something to keep an eye on

[frigid kestrel]

running through beta now and was curious

ill try it out

[steep obsidian]

i havent logged onto beta for a little bit

can you test all the conduit stuff without grinding it out?

[frigid kestrel]

ye i just got it yesterday

so imma give it a go

Yes you can

[steep obsidian]

ill have to have a look i been lazy

[frigid kestrel]

make a fresh 60 and it starts you out near them all with test dummies

[steep obsidian]

yah i levelled a toon just to test that a few weeks ago did some torghast and couldnt be bothered wq and stuff to unlock anymore

havent been on much since templates back

[royal harness]

is wound poison 5x 4% = 20% for assass in pvp SL ?

[pure mauve]

Is this the Shadowlands Channel?

[sudden trench]

I mean dont we have rogue specs in SL? :)

[fierce briar]

anyone plays with deeper stratagem?

i would like to switch to it

[steel ridge]

On live?

[fierce briar]

yea

[steel ridge]

ofc we are running DS with good gear

energy is no issue

[tropic ocean]

Deeper very good with big haste

Pewpewpew

[fierce briar]

didnt know that

thought vigor is the go to

since im new to assa

[steel ridge]

How much haste do you have?

[fierce briar]

uhm just from gear 13%

[steel ridge]

okay thats low

[fierce briar]

all my gear got crit sadly

[steel ridge]

you are probably better off with vigor

high haste is something like

[fierce briar]

lol

[steel ridge]

Dont worry, its all gone in 3-4 weeks

[long coyote]

Thoughts on rogues in SL?

[tropic ocean]

nice stealth class

good transmogs

[dusky moon]

I don't know what to do with all the extra abilities in SL

[brittle basin]

you press them

[dusky moon]

S&D is another buff to keep up

like I don't have anything else to do

[icy ember]

slice and di

[lunar wave]

Lmao

[steel ridge]

Just play sub, they have premed

And only 1 bleed to keep up

[past ermine]

How much is SnD actually making it into rotation?

Is it a buff we will actually be maintaining?

[normal olive]

you stab faster

[tulip nacelle]

Of course you maintain SnD

[normal olive]

so it's good for stabbing

[coral abyss]

stabbing is good for stabbing?

[past ermine]

So i'll need to refresh both rupture and snd now before toxic blade, right?

[steel ridge]

Stabmcstabbings

[past ermine]

what if i prefer to cut over stab

[tulip nacelle]

No tb afaik

[normal olive]

isn't snd like 50 seconds?

[steel ridge]

This is stabbitory

we dont cut here

[past ermine]

is it?

i had it in my head it was like 20 seconds

wait it's 20% attack speed

i just knew there was a 20 in there

[normal olive]

20% yeah

[tulip nacelle]

42 with 6 cp

And it's 50% baseline

70% for sin

[normal olive]

u wot

[coral abyss]

tfw SL sin is gunna be like cata sub

in terms of debuff/buff upkeep

[past ermine]

oh yeah, toxic blade is just gone as a talent. I didn't see that

[coral abyss]

i liked cata sub, so this'll be fun tbh

[past ermine]

Is necrolord still looking like the move?

[delicate bone]

i now use mousewheel up and down and keybinds for abilities in beta

as keybind*

[coral abyss]

[iron valve]

toxic blade is just baseline shiv now

[normal olive]

You don't need any keybinds in bfa

Just mousewheel up for MFD and mousewheel down for SnD

and then stab people

[delicate bone]

youre not wrong lol

i use mousewheel down for feint now and i kind of like it a lot

[steel ridge]

Are you guys not zooming?

[wispy quail]

Didn’t see an SLands forum, so hope it doesn’t hurt to ask here. Last mained rogue (Sin/Sub) in Cata. Primary focus on PvP/M+. Do early beta impressions show viability in both areas with either Sin or Sub? (Outlaw not my jams)

[delicate bone]

i usually play fully zoomed out 90% of the time

i have another keybind to zoom in/out

@wispy quail both are looking to be on par

all three specs are definitely viable

[wispy quail]

👍🏽 word. Thanks!

[fair otter]

They all have their ups and downs but none of them at bad

[balmy condor]

Sin is looking pretty tragic in m+ though compared to the others

[fair otter]

Yeah, betting sin would need to make an aoe build with legendaries/conduits to catch up to the other 2 specs

[floral tulip]

hey all, working on mythic nzoth and could use some advice on getting my numbers up

[balmy condor]

Yeah but it doesn’t seem like that’s possible tbh

We have 1 aoe conduit and no Aoe legendary

Gotta pray that poisons scale hard enough to matter

The interaction between instant poison damage and fok has to be good

Or else its gg

[iron valve]

MA is arguably an aoe legendary

[balmy condor]

Idk bout that one

I think I’d actually argue the opposite

Subterfuge is gonna be the play in m+, if you’re playing with the ma legendary you’re actually wasting 3 seconds of the effect

[delicate bone]

i just hope its easy enough for me to play multiple specs and not stress too much outside of gear sets for each

having the best of both worlds by just swapping specs when needed is a no brainer for me

[balmy condor]

I think soulbinds are gonna be an issue with that

[normal olive]

Yep

[delicate bone]

yea, same,

i just got the beta yesterday so i can finally mess around with stuff and see

but even then, most stuff on the beta is just handed to you to test, so we wont really know how hard it is until its live

[balmy condor]

Well it’s not the getting that sucks

[fair otter]

Luckily Necro isn't bad for all 3 specs, slaughter is goodish for 2 of them. Night fae has its place if you like it

[balmy condor]

It’s the inability to change

Being locked to once a week is gonna sting

[fair otter]

I wouldn't get too caught up on Soulbinds, the conduits are where it is really at

[delicate bone]

yea im thinking necro will be the way to go overall, and slaughter will have like its cult following that swear by it like BotE lmfao

[fair otter]

Lol yeah

[balmy condor]

The soulbinds are the only reason kyrian isn’t getting laughed at more

[fair otter]

Just have each Soulbinds be a different spec, don't worry about the Soulbinds abilities and just put in the bis conduits

[delicate bone]

yea, swapping azerite on gear before i got 2 completely separate sets for outlaw and sin was so damn pricey

so now instead of cost, its time gated to once a week

[balmy condor]

Ye

You’ll probably just have 2 soulbinds, 1 for each spec

But it would be optimal

If you could just change

[delicate bone]

if it worked like gear and you could set it for each spec and it changed when you swapped spec

that would be perfect

[fair otter]

Yeah I wish they went that way

But noooooo

[delicate bone]

2004 systems cant handle the complexity lmao

[fair otter]

Lol

[loud light]

even then you're still feeling bad if it turns out sepsis is best for assn but it's trash for outlaw

[delicate bone]

definitely

in that case i would just make a seperate rogue lol

[loud light]

we're all in the weird state of hoping blizzard doesn't balance the abilities and there's just a clear winner for everyone

[delicate bone]

luckily their track record with balance isnt the best

[normal olive]

nah fuck outlaws

[fair otter]

Yeah I just want a clear winner for convants which work on all 3 specs... having to play all 3 with that would make it easier

[delicate bone]

in a perfect world

[fair otter]

Gonna be fun juggling it all

[lusty saddle]

Hello. hows does the specs feel now on the beta? cant try since i dont have it

[normal olive]

If you want one thing that's op why don't you just want 1 spec that's op af so everyone plays that

[delicate bone]

noone said over powered

just the clear winner

[normal olive]

I hope every spec and content needs diffrent stuff

[delicate bone]

i do not

unless blizzard allows a fluid way to swap around

[normal olive]

i like the idea if specializing in one aspect

[fair otter]

If we can switch between convants sure make each one have a niche, if not I want one that works well for all specs

[normal olive]

Do we know how the switching covenants works yet?

[delicate bone]

yes

you can switch to another one

but switching back to one that you were already prior

is incredibly tedious and relatively time consuming

[fair otter]

You won't be switching everyday or anything

[normal olive]

That's what they said but how is it ingame

[fair otter]

That is how it is in game

[delicate bone]

i mean we dont know exactly since there will be more steps than are already on beta

[normal olive]

I asked how it works

[delicate bone]

but you essentially have to prove yourself to be accepted back into a covenant

[normal olive]

not if it's easy

[fair otter]

You have to do WQs in the area you want to go back to along with killing rares and other things for some arbitrary thing to go back

[delicate bone]

finding how exactly it works is as easy as going onto wowhead and looking for 10 secons

[normal olive]

so you have to fill a bar?

[delicate bone]

as one step, yes

[fair otter]

Yep

Luckily so far renowed stays no matter if you switch if that wasn't the case it would be worse

[normal olive]

so it takes you like 1-2 hours to swap if you grind for it

from what it looks like on beta

[delicate bone]

false

it will take you at a minimum, 2 days, since things are capped

and thats without the extra steps that are apparently coming

[normal olive]

"12% for killing dungeon bosses if the dungeon is in the same zone"

so you can just grind normal dungeon

[fair otter]

Yeah there are only 4 wqs per area and you have to do a certain amount of them

[normal olive]

oh and 8 wqs

overlooked that

so yeah 2 days you right

[delicate bone]

so in terms of specs i agree that being able to basically choose due to personal preference and not feel super weak is good

but the covenants and such will make it tricky

[normal olive]

You can play around the 2 day timer since you keep your covenant during that

depends on when raid days are and stuff

[delicate bone]

yea, its definitley doable

[fair otter]

It also depends if it gets harder and harder the more times you go back and forth

[normal olive]

a guild i went with raided tuesday and thrusday, so you could swap back to raid covanant on tuesday and swap back on thrusday

[loud light]

I'm skeptical they will leave the covenant swap at the current level of effort it is

[fair otter]

I would think if you left and came back it would get harder each time but that really depends on how hard they truly want it to be for people willing to switch over and over

[loud light]

I actually don't remember how renown works when swapping back and forth, would it be preserved when you go back or do you have to use the catchup from zero every time? because if you soulbinds get set back to zero renown it's not going to be worth it

[balmy condor]

It’s all saved

[fair otter]

Thankfully renowed is "independent" of the covenant and stays

[normal olive]

[balmy condor]

[loud light]

imagine BETRAYING your covenant and having to farm a thousand boars to prove your loyalty again and then they welcome you back and it's like you never left

[carmine osprey]

They should add a secret dice roll and after you've done all that tedious shit you may have caught them on a bad day and they go "na still cant come back, come see me tomorrow"

[iron valve]

hey if my enemy brought be the corpses of a thousand boars I'd be... impressed at least

[tropic ocean]

bringing 1000 boar corpses to an npc

just for him to tell you "im vegan"

👍

[fair otter]

They just up the amount of boars by 1k everytime you come back

[normal olive]

I'd be down to grind 10k boars if they are all lvl 1

[rocky holly]

would execute bracers increase the damage of sepsis in execute range?

[balmy condor]

it's not flagged in wowhead

[rocky holly]

what does that mean? :/

[balmy condor]

probably not

[rocky holly]

oof

is slaughter damage increased then?

[balmy condor]

the poison yes

the hit, not

[rocky holly]

mmm

is there a resource for interactions/testing with legendaries and covenant abilities for rogues?

[balmy condor]

not really

cause we also don't know whats intended tbh

[rocky holly]

gotcha so we're all just kind of talking about it at this point

what seems to be the consensus so far? i've only played around with sepsis and slaughter so far. slaughter seemed kind of lackluster and felt out of place in the rotation

[balmy condor]

bone spike is by far the preferred atm

if you want to try and test and verify

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3ARogue

this is where they post their bugs and stuff

[rocky holly]

cool thank you

have you tried any of them out personally?

[balmy condor]

I don't have beta

[rocky holly]

rip

[balmy condor]

I'm just the #assassination gate keeper

[delicate bone]

i prefer bone spike, its just way stronger than the other options right now

[normal olive]

Whispyr is our god

[rocky holly]

so with bone spike you just use it once per target? or does it stack

[balmy condor]

you would use it for cp

[loud light]

the dot doesn't stack, but there's instant damage when you hit the button (and cps)

[balmy condor]

yeah

[loud light]

so if there are adds you can use to get resets, you do that

[lean marten]

beta-less cucksssss

[loud light]

if it's patchwerk you just use your charges anyway

[lean marten]

[balmy condor]

I just wanna be able to answer beta questions man

[rocky holly]

gotcha

interesting

and does the bleed increase with the execute bracers?

[balmy condor]

I believe so

[rocky holly]

that seems nutty then, kind of a balanced choice that is affected by one of the top sin legendaries?

[balmy condor]

well its also overtuned atm

[rocky holly]

mmm

[balmy condor]

the interaction is whatever tbh

like its good

but the reason bone spike is strong isn't because of the interaction

if its supposed to work off of the legendary, that's a nice bonus

[rocky holly]

right, it just seems like a balanced choice in any ST/MT situation

[balmy condor]

yeah atm

who knows what'll happen in the next month

[rocky holly]

scary

[balmy condor]

slaughter with conduits seems insane single target though

[rocky holly]

im on the fence right now between sub and sin

[balmy condor]

sub is definitely looking to be better right now

they got a crazy legendary that probably isn't intended to work that way

but even without it, the m+ potential seems better than sin

[rocky holly]

does the covenant choice change much between sub and sin?

[balmy condor]

nah

[rocky holly]

im sure it might vary but is it drastic?

ok ok

[lean marten]

rn its either bonespike or bonespike

[rocky holly]

nice

[fair otter]

With bonespike

[honest vessel]

being able to fok to spread the atk speed slow poison might be large on big keys

since sub/law dont have a way to aoe spread it afaik

[strange python]

New here, Which covenant for SL?

[honest vessel]

too much tuning to come

this very moment, bone spike

but that might not be the case

when launch hits

[balmy condor]

@strange python if you scroll slightly up, you'll see the conversation

[honest vessel]

i dont think you even have to scroll tbh

[vital haven]

uuuf

you guys should go and take a look at wow general channel

[grizzled jay]

take a look at this:

🍆

[vital haven]

there was a very spicy discussion about sin corruptions

[balmy condor]

can you stamp a message I'm too lazy

[fleet whale]

the level 90 (45 in SL) talent row shouldn't even be a talent row tbh

alacrity should be the only choice, just to make sure that players don't choose the wrong talent

[frail jungle]

but i want exsanguinate

[fleet whale]

it's dead in SL

like so dead

[fair otter]

It is sad how dead exsang is... But glad it got some play with lots of haste

[frail jungle]

yea, I've been enjoying it while I can.

[fair otter]

Same here

[steel ridge]

twas fun while it lasted

[dull crypt]

how was blindside looking for sin

[balmy condor]

looking good single target

[fleet whale]

Gonna come down to MP vs Blindside for ST

and I think MP might be the play for M+, with the fok and poison conduit

[somber egret]

Biiiggg poison bombs

[balmy condor]

probably not

poison bomb still gonna blow

[somber egret]

Noooooo

[dull crypt]

will feel nice having a proc again

early cata feels

[somber egret]

The theme of poison bomb is so cool. Wish they’d explore its possibilities more