There's so many variables that don't align for this to be good
#assassination
rigid mango
vestal wren
we got simulations for that
rigid mango
To be good enough to warrant taking a spot as a minor let alone major
vestal wren
but i agree, it does not seem like a "impactfull" trait
vestal wren
you could just reduce vanish cd and look how that worked out
rigid mango
But unless they change how sin fundamentally works atm
I don't see how VoP will be viable
vestal wren
but given vanish is iirc aligned esp. if you play with subter you probably wont gain to much from vanish
chilly marsh
but you guys think they will keep CLF being bis for rading for math specs ?
for me is somethign thy would change
rigid mango
Unless something else magically becomes better
chilly marsh
making better essences
rigid mango
or scaling is enough to make Blood the best
thorny jasper
clf might fall off a little compared to blood when we get more haste
rigid mango
Or yeah, new essences
thorny jasper
thats probably the only way unless new essence ya
thorny jasper
rly
rigid mango
The minor is a hasted proc
thorny jasper
yeah that makes sense ok cool
chilly marsh
would make no sense for them to put a new raid essence that need to be farmed if it's worse than old contend one
rigid mango
Yeah, ofc
chilly marsh
something blizzard likes to make you do... farm it all again
rigid mango
Maybe it works exactly perfectly with VoP
Scaling wise, blood's the next best option
But we'll just have to wait and see what turns out to be the best
rigid mango
Yes?
chilly marsh
looks like a new kind of slot IE can't equip old essences there
rigid mango
mmhm
rigid mango
Seems as if we're straying away from sin talk
chilly marsh
true
vestal wren
i could not figure out what the rectangle thing is
versed mica
I noticed vision of perfection's proc chance is being buffed by 12%... made me wonder, what is it's proc chance in the first place? I can't find that info anywhere
rigid mango
Not enough to be good
versed mica
Assuming each spec has a different proc chance
vestal wren
not sure i think its ~15%
versed mica
I know, but still curious
15%? gotta be lower than that lol
either that or my luck is trash
royal lantern
procs like that have a ''cd''
rigid mango
iirc it's like, 1 ppm or something
royal lantern
ppm and stuff
dense cedar
Just give us Legion Vendetta cd 
vestal wren
15% is kinda low
its probably somewhere in simc/spelldata i would need to search for it
rigid mango
has a seperate PPM per spec
chilly marsh
so ...
rigid mango
If it was set it'd be stupid for some classes and super underwhelming for some
it's a dynamic one
chilly marsh
i know just saying how random it is
vestal wren
its just like convergence, its per spec base
i wouldnt be suprised if they used similar proc chances
strange python
guys what should i look on my logs? parse% or ilvl? cause im at 50% parse but 90% on ilvl how to know if i did the fight wrong by looking at % ?ty
vestal wren
unless you have very high simdps and are on farm content with a decent guild you should try to figure out what rotational mistakes you do
lost horizon
Ilvl parses aren't really valid, but kind of like fuu said you need gear to compete overall
If your overall parses are significantly lower than your ilvl parses, you're likely pretty behind in gear
vestal wren
itemlvl does not mean much in this patch
its not irrelevant but simdps are better metric
lost horizon
Yeah, you're not necessarily behind in ilvl, but still behind in gear
Though like what he said, if your ilvl parses are significantly higher than overall parses you're probably very behind in actual ilvl as well
strange python
ahh ye alright i see ye im kinda bad geared bad trinkets no benthic gear etc i understand, ty guys
lost horizon
I agree with fuu though, look at the actual logs to see if you're messing up
strange python
What should I look at precisely in logs?
rigid mango
I'd link a log if I were you
Have someone rummage through it and find the issues
Then after that you know what they are, and can check for yourself
The simplest ones are, overcapping energy/cp, using tb on cooldown, opener/cd usage, tb windows and probably the simplest, just that what you're wearing is correct
rigid mango
I'd check it if I was at pc, if no one does I'll do it when I wake up tmr
vestal wren
yes and no
its good bc its a supplement to simc and warcraftlogs that shows you some data better prepeared
vestal wren
no bc. it does not account for encounters/etc and rogue is iirc not maintained
rigid mango
But whenever it's something generally rotational it's bad
Bec like fuu said, not supported properly
strange python
ahhh i see, ty
vestal wren
your best friend is the timeline view on the log
it helps a lot to find rotational mistakes
simulationcraft or the wowhead guide can help you figure out the rotation
if sth is not discribed in detail you can always jump in here and ask
strange python
okay thanks a lot for your help i gtg i will look at this tomorrow have a good day/night 🙂
vestal wren
have fun 🙂
vestal wren
@rigid mango it seems to be flat 0.85 what they buff to 0.95 rppm, however there might be other modifications to it. But at least it seems so on wowhead
link:https://www.wowhead.com/spell=297869/vision-of-perfection#see-also-other
echo cargo
There are deffo PpM modifications per spec / class afaik
worldly moon
when i sim my stat weights i get weap dsp at 10.09.. but when i sim beat gear in my bag it tell me to use a 410 dagger with a socket over a 430 dagger that has roughly 50dps more... i need some insight here guys
arctic walrus
Read the last line of your weights, offhand weapon dps is way less of a value
Regardless, don't base your choices off of stat weights, they are an archaic form of comparing items with the introduction of Top Gear
worldly moon
well i have been using what the top gear sims tells me, but that just confused me.
rough agate
Yeah I only really look at stat weights to see which food i should use but even then i just sim each food
worldly moon
but that makes sence. thanks
peak juniper
Hey quick question, when going through rotation and pooling energy, what amount of energy do y'sall roughly target to pool to?
lone junco
dont cap, dont let bleeds drop
if you mut mut Env quickly or slowly, it is the same damage. Energy control is up to you. If you bang it out quickly, and are dry, you may not have the energy to do stuff you want to.
plain moon
can i get a quick tldr for zaq CD timings. Were doing zerg strat, im going down both delerium
or wait the zerg strat idea is to skip the 2nd delerium so with it I dont need to run vision of perfection + bote to vend both adds
Bit lost in this fight
arctic walrus
If you're going down both times then you need vision and blood, because the time between them is only ~1:30
cobalt pelican
the deliriums in phase 2 are irrelevant so missing one doesn't change anything
plain moon
So what im understanding is there is 3 dels throughout he fight with zerg. One will be with an add but the other two I still want vend for just so I can vend boss with haste anyways
arctic walrus
No, so before 50%, he'll cast those 3 circles in front of him
that gets you into the delirium realm
After 50%, the eyes on the ground will transport you to delirium
After 50%, he'll begin to cast his split, where 2 echos spawn, one in normal and one in delirium
4 will go into delirium with the eyes on the ground. This is where your low cd vendetta and other cds come into play
You use your vendetta twice before the adds begin to spawn in
I haven't done the zerg strat yet so I cannot comment on your timings
cobalt pelican
if it makes it simpler you'll get the frontal deliriums at like 75% and 55% or smth, if you're pushing rly fast you might miss the 55% one
but it changes nothing for the fight really
the 2nd delirium even if you're slow generally just take them so that they don't explode, neither of those have ads or anything besides hitting the boss afk
plain moon
So yeah we got them at around 75% and 55%, So I use CD on pull, then on the 75% one
the 55% im being taken out of for mage
then at 50% he will cast split and also del eyes. Then I go in and vend add
cobalt pelican
it's at like 40% or smth
just check your log
you'll get one on pull, one spare vend somewhere, then the next 2 vends after that are for delirium echos if you're on both
what you do with the spare is largely irrelevant unless you're looking to parse
plain moon
when is the 2nd echo?
plain moon
so he will cast first at around 40%ish then the second 1m30 after that?
is there another del to get in for that or do i need to stay alive in del for second
cobalt pelican
you go back upstairs and then back down with a new set of deliriums
upper canyon
do you lose loyal to the end stacks when you go into delirium if theres fewer than 4 people with it in the zone?
plain moon
Okay so the 2 deleriums before 50% are irrelevant and is just who ever can pump some boss damage with the extra haste
cobalt pelican
i believe you do lose loyal but i'm not confident enough to state it as fact
whether they're in the delirium zone or not doesn't really matter since everyone is hostile anyway
plain moon
Okay once I've gotten some pulls in I understand whats going on
couple side questions who do you guys do for add dmg? (imagine it changes a bit with raid comp ofc) and what classes are you guys being sent down with?
arctic walrus
Everyone else handles adds
Things like hunters, rets, and demo locks are good for echo splits
plain moon
Okay yeah ive been just FoK once to get deadly on them than ignoring
I'm being sent down with 2 destro locks and getting nuked by infernals
rancid bobcat
!font
arctic walrus
What about font
dense cedar
font
hoary patrol
Does 8.3 FoK change changes anything?
rigid mango
Pins
hoary patrol
Ty
rancid bobcat
ok you cant blame that on me
topaz blaze
which azerite pieces should i be rolling for?
from the vender, chest head or shoulders?
vernal fern
Where is the info about 8.3 fok in pins ? Cant find it
modest tendon
They changed a tool tip that hardly needs a pin :p
drifting cloud
it was there
chrome forum
On Mythic Za'qul, we are using burn strategy. I am going down in the first set of delirium realms, is font of power worth it (seems risky trying to channel it in the realm) or you think inkpod is better?Do you guys use health pots/stones to stay in the first realm? How many stacks do you take before you cloak?
wide hedge
if you get the benefits of the delirium haste, inkpod is probably better
font is only good if you know exactly where to use it the optimal way
can't tell you when the perfect timings are since i was not allowed to go down in the first 2 groups (only for the echoes in the last 2 deliriums)
chrome forum
I was cloaking at around 7 stacks last night, is that enough?
wide hedge
dunno how you cloak the stacks when you go down - when I stay up I cloak the 3rd aoe with 4 stacks to make it easier for the healers
but 7-8 stacks cloak in delirium sounds fine
chrome forum
Who did you guys send down, on the first 2 sets? All ranged?
chrome forum
didnt the mage jusst obliterate the feral/dh
chrome forum
One last question, my team were asking us to go mainly ST for the boss as we're burning it, as an assassination rogue on this fight, how worth is it to throw a rupture on an add or 2 or FOK spam a couple of times for the energy regen?
wide hedge
rupture is not worth since adds die too quickly
FOK spam is okayish if you generate more CP than mutilate
chrome forum
4?
wide hedge
yeah 4+ is worth, but hope that the other dds dont burst them down too quickly
dont fok spam if its not a ST gain
chrome forum
cool, thank you for the tips mate
wide hedge
dont forget to play with leech talent 😂
chrome forum
yeah man have been doing
rigid mango
If you fok you do less boss damage, like, a lot
So if you're not struggeling with adds just mut
chrome forum
@rigid mango Thanks. I will keep this in mind.
steep obsidian
get the weak aura that shows you how long until they transform on their nameplate and if you see one about to swap to it with mutilate imo you not there to do add damage though if you want that just play outlaw or something
chrome forum
I was brought in specifically to single target, i just wanted to understand if it was worth throwing dots/fok just to get additional resource to increase my single target damage (which i understand is not to be true so thank you
steep obsidian
you can still do a sigficant amount of damage to them if requied but yeah obv that costs ya boss dam
strange python
Hey i'm curious to see what is the average sim number for high geared sin in EP?
chrome forum
Highest I've seen is about 53k, (i'm curious too)
wide hedge
i sim round about 53k (sth like 52.7k?)
rigid mango
High end is 53k+, highest in here is raz who's at 54.5 ish
strange python
I see, ty
chrome forum
Whats raz's ign
rigid mango
@scarlet sequoia
chrome forum
Thank you good sir
scarlet sequoia
uh i log out in my sub pvp gear, if u wanna see my raid gear i can fix it i guess @chrome forum
chrome forum
I just wanted to have a look at what kind of gear you had tbf 54k is alot yano
scarlet sequoia
aight give me 2 min will show on armory
😉
or i guess i can just link sim actually
there u go
rigid mango
That's raz for you
chrome forum
Insane
wide hedge
K i'm only at 52k, not 53k
shitty helmet, shitty ring and no socket trinkets
feelsbadman
scarlet sequoia
worldly iron
my other sim is still in progress 
blissful storm
guys I am hopeless gambled 6 times for Gorak Tul and still didnt get it, should I just gather 200K? lamo
turbid osprey
Same boat :’(
dark crag
Raz, you miss a gem on your coral
heavy trail
Directly saved the 200k for goraks, now saving for Cephalo...
heavy trail
Why not?
rigid mango
BEcause it's not BiS in either m+ nor raiding
heavy trail
If you got zqul head blackwater is worse
arctic walrus
arctic walrus
Gee I hope you're not running loyal on zaq and np on gorak
heavy trail
Blackwater sims 100dps less for me 
arctic walrus
How many loyal targets
heavy trail
4
rigid mango
Either your mastery is very high
Or smth
Blackwater is ultimatly the best choice, or within margin to cepha and with the added bonus of if anyone dies it skyrockets in value
esp if it's timed well
And it'll outperform cepha
The only thing actually worth while saving 200k for is goraks
As the technical BiS is Zaq - goraks - blackwater
heavy trail
Currently at work so no simc string, gimme a second.
rigid mango
iirc it outsimmed blackwater for a while by a small margin
but after a while it even won without any deaths
Raz's got both but blackwater even outsims there
heavy trail
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7pRHqgKkk6YbwapzHvJE75
Small margin but still sims better (logged out on zaqul last night if you say something about the essences 😄 )
scarlet sequoia
you have high mastery, probably why
heavy trail
ye i guess...
rerolled the crafted ring about 20 times now...
rigid mango
Yeah well that's probably the reason for why it's worse
heavy trail
no second dagger in two digit boss kills and rerolls -.-
rigid mango
and even then, I'd rather take blackwater just bec of the chance of death + not needing to guarantee roll
heavy trail
ye, ok, thanks so dunno, fuck titanresiduum 😄
rigid mango
Just save it or use on other
heavy trail
going for irontide then, otl and sin traits for m+ are pretty damn good
rigid mango
👌
heavy trail
just fyi its the high mastery from rings and offhand, even keeping ashvane ring but changing the others:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sHRvR5ggEkuuMA7QAjzu3L
wide hedge
Oh damn I had sub in my sim?
Woops forgot to switch it 😂
@scarlet sequoia ty for pointing it out, didn't pay attention to that one
scarlet sequoia
np
wide hedge
and i think 22% haste is enough 😂
scarlet sequoia
sim said otherwise
arctic walrus
N o
true nexus
where do i add this target_race=aberration to sim the aberration belt
just on my simc paste data somewhere?
quasi pewter
devout thicket
I understand correctly, that we should be overcapping CP in opener with MA? Played with subterfuge up until now and it feels kinda weird.
true nexus
does the haste proc from a duo of mechagon rings lose value if im goin into delirium realm
royal lantern
probably yes because you have so much haste allready
arctic walrus
Yeah but you're still outsixe most of the fight
royal lantern
^
arctic walrus
@devout thicket you don't intentionally aim to overcap, the only place you can is with a tb, that's the only time you're allowed overcap
devout thicket
well, yes, the TB in the opener is pretty much guaranteed to overcap
scarlet sequoia
no
true nexus
should i swap from simming ST 5mins to like
3~
since most fights at around that length
these days
or what duration are people usually simming
hidden bay
5 minutes usually
true nexus
yea i see our kills are 3:12, 3:30, 3:32, then 5, 7, 7
so i guess 5 is an ok average
its kinda weird how stealth + applying poisons procs the 3 diffrent spells ring
cause i guess youre technically casting 3 spells on yourself
arctic walrus
Shroud tricks kick vial all work
nimble tinsel
modest stream
Beast slaying is way better for the current xmog meta
woven summit
sorry wrong channel lmao
wooden knot
Maybe a dumb question, I know I could just test this myself, but I'm at work - do damage pots break shroud? I always want to shroud my group before a boss pull but I'm terrified of breaking shroud on prepot and getting everyone killed
plain moon
You can pre pot in shroud
wooden knot
Ok cool, thanks!
robust gull
how many stacks do we get coral up to before popping
rancid bobcat
anyone using font for m+
trying to pick between 445(s) spyglass, 430(s) font, 440 coral
rigid mango
@robust gull any amount that you have when vend is up, use with each one regardless of stack count.
@rancid bobcat Font's really good if you can do organised pulls
rancid bobcat
but what to pair it with
rigid mango
Spyglass
if you have a good spyglass, you pretty much never swap it
I don't see a reason to, anyways
rigid mango
It's all about the second slot, coral's sorta underwhelming if you don't get 2nd vend each boss fight
Which you wont on a loss of fort bosses
rancid bobcat
but it's tyran week
rigid mango
Never pick HB.
There, you got it 
You need atleast 20% fok damage through out a dungeon to make it do even damage to PB
languid trellis
how do i take dribblin inkpod in consideration in a 5min patchwerk simm?
rigid mango
You've asked this before, havn't you?
It works as intended
It's in there, it sims it properly
The target in the sim drops sub 30%
arctic walrus
What answer are you even looking to hear
rancid bobcat
obviously its broken cause his sims should be hitting 60k
shut garnet
is iris minor on azshara ever worth it
i see everyone playing blood with lucid and c&s but my c&s is r2
rigid mango
It's fine, just not as good as strife
If your strife aint r3 though, iris is probs better
rancid bobcat
i think my r3 strife was simming under iris last i checked
rigid mango
i.e iris gets devalued
rancid bobcat
i mean that's with bote for azshara
arctic walrus
rancid bobcat
iris stacks up pretty quick, while sometimes strife likes to fall off
arctic walrus
It was so long ago I forgot I didn't have 65
rigid mango
rancid bobcat
haven't paid as much attention i guess
rigid mango
Strife's generally better on QA
arctic walrus
One of like 5 people to play clf over blood too 
shut garnet
btw, is assa that much better than outlaw on the fight
arctic walrus
Azshara?
arctic walrus
Yeah? Why would outlaw be good on a ST focused fight
shut garnet
which is fair enough ill play whatever but, was just wondering
shut garnet
i mean my outlaw outSTs my assa
arctic walrus
It's okay ish with wits
shut garnet
according to sims
arctic walrus
But sin just performs better
In terms of your own comfortableness, I would say a good outlaw would be better than an average sin
rancid bobcat
wasnt sin touted as one of the easiest specs in the game
i mean, not that outlaw is too difficult either
rigid mango
Sin's easy to make effective
but has more minmaxing than outlaw
outlaw needs you to get the decision making down and then it's ez pez from there
rancid bobcat
i guess
polar cape
And folly
rigid mango
What?
autumn slate
Outlaw needs Folly is what he means
arctic walrus
"outlaw needs"
arctic walrus
rigid mango
robust gull
when there are 8-10 targets up that are only living for 20 seconds, do you just spam fok?
robust gull
do you dot things? or just envenom?
sorry, looked over the wowhead guide and unless i missed it there isnt anything for aoe, except for "fok if 4 or more targets"
pastel rampart
What essence should I use on mythic Azshara If I don't have rank 3 blood of the enemy? (there are 67% - intermission wipes)
rigid mango
CLF, ofc
pastel rampart
It is better than rank 2 blood?
rigid mango
Yes, blood is bad until r3.
pastel rampart
ok, thanks 🙂
vagrant brook
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
hoary patrol
Do you hold TB before Font/Vanish/vendetta combo?
rigid mango
No, you hold them for TB
Unless you'll lose a cast of them from delaying that small time
magic sparrow
anyone have a good link to the Pandemic info for assassin?
dark crag
30%
It's always 30% time added to the duration of the cp time your next move will have
hoary patrol
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
dark crag
Like current rupture is 10 sec you cast a 5cp one. 24×0.3=7.2+24=31.2
magic sparrow
yeah i use arenars package (with some other stuff) and understaind it. but was just wondering of anyone had any idea why its not readily on wowhead
afernar*
aaah nvm its a broad post to all Dot classes
huu duurrr
latent gazelle
is rank 2 VoP enough cd reduction off Vendetta to use on mythic Zaq to hit every split?
magic sparrow
yeah i was trying to find info for it on assassin to link to a begginer friend of mine
latent gazelle
okay cool
ty ty
idk if im gonna be in group to kill del split but want to be prepared inc ase
ocean urchin
Guys for m+ (yes i run assa for m+) what essence combination do i want?
magic sparrow
Pri: Iris, Pruification and lucid or bloodid imagine
arctic walrus
Blood major and c&s/lucid is the best set up. You can swap in iris for blood if you don't have it
true nexus
Do you guys FOK for combo points at all during zaqul
when theres ads everywhere
or whats the usual MO for a sin rogue on zaqul
do you bleed the ads
true nexus
do you ever tb/env a big hp ad
rigid mango
And if you need add control it helps slightly
Nah
If you need the add control, especially if you know an add is getting low on stakcs
and evolving soon
Sure
But otherwise it's just better overall to tunnel boss, most likely
true nexus
Yep
I think I'll do that
Sometimes I just wanna pad on the opener and I do my second TB on a full hp ad cause it lines up perfectly
But I think the actual boss damage is more important
rigid mango
On what add?
true nexus
do you ever stop dps
as a group
we stop afor a while so something lines up
a dread + tentacle
before pushing to 85% i think
rigid mango
There's two stratis
Either you burn or you wait for that overlap
We did the overlap stuff for a while, but ultimatly swapped to burn since it was nicer
true nexus
we tried burn a few times i believe
not sure what happened to where they determined the wait strat was better for us
we got it to 1mil hp
grave trail
Whats the best way to dps in Queens court
true nexus
but we had the wrong person go into last delirium and fucked us
grave trail
just keep switching back and forth for dots?
true nexus
no
grave trail
what then
rigid mango
You swap with shadowstep
grave trail
only when st is up?
rigid mango
Yep
marble hemlock
strange python
Hmm these Azerite changes.
tropic ocean
@strange python ?
civic sentinel
blackwater chest bis?
arctic walrus
With other loyals yes
hidden bay
yes. optimal azerites are zaqul head with dd/np, goraktuls with dd/bbi and blackwater chest with ttk/loyal
civic sentinel
thanks!
ripe dock
Lucid dreams rank 2 lasts 15sec - currently equipped
looked up r3 on wowhead and it says it lasts 12 seconds + leech
r3 is bad or thats misinfo?
or?
ripe dock
my gear's bad so yes i do 🙂
just started unlocking them
had some nazjatar stuff just from flying grind
whats bis st/aoe essences?
ripe dock
thanks x
cobalt pelican
lucid was 12 seconds on the ptr i think so you're probably looking at something old
tropic ocean
r1 is 12 no? Or was 12
grave trail
ok so whats the best set up for orgozoa Single target
without starving for energy
CLf over blood of the enemy still?
triple dose and one blood scent?
verbal knot
My guild is telling me I should be wearing poens but my 445 socketed incomparable beauty gloves sim 330 dps higher. They said sims arent accurate and poens doesnt sim well. Is that true?
drifting cloud
yes they oversim by a little bit even lol
not undersim
445 socket azshara are definetly better, didnt think it would be that much better tho
astral tiger
Any way to check out what the avg 3-5/8m raider is currently simming? because I'm simming way lower than the rest of my raid team (like up to 9k difference) while at the same avg gear level
drifting cloud
how much do you sim
astral tiger
like 46/47k
drifting cloud
because as assa its pretty easy to sim around 50k
astral tiger
I'm at 440 equipped with rank 3 essences but only at 46 :/
and not than other rogues
verbal knot
I am at 52.6 right now
astral tiger
I just meant with people in my guild
drifting cloud
no point comparing between classes
stiff fern
can always link a sim to see if theres anything that stands out
astral tiger
I'm 68
verbal knot
oh
I misread that
sorry!
So if that's all true then my only best guess is that your stats are just messed up
meager nebula
if you're concerned about low sim dps you can just link your sim and people can see if you're missing anything major
verbal knot
tru
drifting cloud
but yeah as a rogue you can sim 50k if you have like 3 items from mythic
verbal knot
Also if your simming with Loyal if you have it set to full raid with it
that makes a difference
arctic walrus
Imagine if I was still in the sim game
arctic walrus
Hey guys, is there anything I can do to improve my sim?
stiff fern
off the bat you're simming 6 minutes
arctic walrus
Crit hide me before dicky sees this 
meager nebula
astral tiger
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cTkm4KPd5KWrLQHWJ6TgnL ok it's at like 49k but still lmfao
and that's with using font but i can't get it with some fights
meager nebula
are those the wrong gloves?
astral tiger
what do you mean?
verbal knot
Not having bracers is a bit of a hit probably
those are one of the better benthic pieces
meager nebula
well you should have either the benthic gloves or the azshara gloves
arctic walrus
how often do you play outlaw
astral tiger
often
meager nebula
if we're comparing it to the 53k people
your shoulders are only 435, you're missing a lot of gem slots, don't think thats a bis helm either
drifting cloud
yeah and the helm is nothing special, not sure how good it sim exactly against the top2-3 other ones
but a few 100 dps for sure
meager nebula
gems alone you're probably missing 2k dps easy
astral tiger
yeah problem is gorak tul's mantle is the only shoulder that is better than gorak tul's mantle so i have to roll for it each week lmao
but no the bis is za qul mythic but..
rancid bobcat
sounds like it's time to hodl
astral tiger
hodl?
silk robin
is VoP the play on za'qul if you are going down?
arctic walrus
If both times then yeah
silk robin
so Cld, dreams and vop
arctic walrus
blood, lucid, vop
silk robin
👌
wild kettle
why would you use blood over cld in zaqul ?
lost horizon
echoes
wide hedge
You have more smaller burst Windows making blood a better choice due to its low cd
hoary patrol
Why are so many rogues using BotE, lucid and strife on mythic azshara?
coarse tusk
it lines up well with stuff in the fight
hoary patrol
With hulks etc?
coarse tusk
yeah you can use it on the pull, 2nd hulk, the giant swarm of adds, the 2nd tidemistress and the lust after you kill the 3rd add
hoary patrol
So Its worth using over CLF
coarse tusk
i prefer it but its up to you
arctic walrus
Clf gives you exclusively azshara damage
Blood is just more versatile and you get more uses out of it during the fight
hoary patrol
Ty!
wide hedge
You can stack strive to 8 easily on start of p2 in the aoe
For the sweet DMG buff with your cds
honest needle
does any 1 kno anything or looked into the new essences comming out ?
leaden belfry
Guys i was wondering with MA talent on the opener if i mutilate but gain only 3 cp should i mutilate again to go 4-5 for rupture or should i still rupture even with 3 cp?
leaden belfry
ye was thinking the same, ty
twilit hollow
you mut again otherwise you have to refresh rupture during your TB window
vagrant urchin
hey guys, Does Punctured darkness on mythic zaq do dmg? or is it bugged?
hoary crown
FINALY!! Gorak tuls<3
royal lantern
gz
hoary crown
Ty ma dude! ^^
worn crag
Gonna buy them also when I´m at home 😄
distant lava
nah you're not welcome to the tuls if you bought them
worn crag
😦
That´s not fair mate I rolled only shit pieces so I told myself now I´m gonna buy me a safe piece 😛
But yeah I feel the tingling in my fingers to roll for 3 almost 4 random pieces instead 
but if the 3 random pieces are shit I´m gonna get angry so my gf told me to buy one safe piece
wide hedge
Just gamble
It feels better getting Tuls by gambling
Especially when it's first try
worn crag
and what happens if i get 3 times shit in a row
a guildie started gambling for benthic gear yesterday. I told him what to get. First token => crit shoes with socket / 2nd token => belt with socket
I made a screenshot of it and told him if I tell that somebody nobody will believe it 
worn crag
Yeah and if not 😄
worn crag
xD
..but the thing is if I would get them in first try I could buy me 3 items for another slot lol
wide hedge
yeah
i was a lucky bastard. first chest: cephalohide, first shoulders gorak tuls
and i gambled the rest on the helmet since zaqul doesn't want to drop the helmet a second time (first time I got it I had to trade it away feelsbadman)
worn crag
I think I´m gonna buy gorak tuls later and then I start gambling again for head/chest. I wanted to build up the engineer head but my problem is that I don´t have enough breath of bwonsdami and also the blood cells of Uldir are missing...
drifting cloud
you dont need that 
wide hedge
had the engineer helmet since 8.2 release and only replaced it last week with the ttk/NP/OP helmet from m+ gamble
and its only like a 60 dps upgrade
and yeah, you don't need the old raid materials for the new helmet
wide hedge
nope
wide hedge
you can learn the 415 8.2 helmet in newhome/ally base (dunno what its called)
and just work your way up to 445
worn crag
LOL
wide hedge
i think you needed engi 170+ for the 445 helmet?
worn crag
I didn´t know that
wide hedge
but it shouldn't be a problem
deft nymph
the first random 430 i bought at the start of the tier was gorak tuls
and 0 of the random 445s since ::(
robust river
I'm rolling my first random 445 today
Rainment of Blighted Tribe
Looks like a dud for EP but good for M+
polar pier
do you guys run ST azerite powers in M+ or aim for as many echoing blades as possible?
thorn galleon
For me its (1TTK) / 3SS / 2-3 EB
robust river
SS/EB are the go to for Mythic I believe. I haven't been playing long enough to tell you if that changes per affixes
worn crag
@robust river its the best for M+
robust river
2SS/2EB/2TTK is the most common all round set-up I've seen people running
worn crag
your chest is shit for raid but fine for m+ 🙂
but raid wise you can get a nice one from the fish boss
robust river
Elemental Whirl vs Gutripped for M+?
worn crag
Elemental Whirl
robust river
Yeah hoping ot get the 430 fish one this week (I'm only running heroic)
worn crag
My guild is doing 3/8 Mythic we´re struggling at Ashvane. People are too silly to pull CDs when RL tells.
Each try some guy pushes his azerite buddy in beginning of the fight
robust river
Ah nice. My group of mates got into BFA really last (like 4-5 weeks?). On our 4th week raiding I think, cleared all normal and up to Za'QUl on Heroic
Not sure if we will attempt Mythic, we only got like 10 players haha
worn crag
@wide hedge I need to unlock the abssyal constructor first. Need to collect 75 mana pearls, then 20 essences from the raid and then for 445 I need 200 essences. Problem is that you can collect the essences only if you did first quest with the 75 mana pearls. I´ve spend them all yesterday for rolling benthic bracers looooooool xD
robust river
M+ is Crit + Mastery stacking isn't it primarily? Next to no haste?
With that in mind, which of these would you run?
rigid mango
@polar pier 3 ss 1 eb is the base for a really good setup, you can add another EB, ttk and bbi to finish it off
royal lantern
vers mastery one imo
haste has really low value in m+
nvmd, didnt look at the ilvl
hoary crown
Hmm is it possible that VoP will outshine the current best essences with it's 12% increased proc rate? Am I wrong thinking it's garbage since u wanna line vendetta up with vanish ?
distant lava
you're not wrong
rigid mango
And yes, because you want to align them
hoary crown
good good! Then I dont have to do the most boring dungeon exept for dire maul xD
rigid mango
Also you'd want 3 NP which isn't that good
royal lantern
the problem with vop for assassination is
robust river
@royal lantern run the 425 crit/haset then?
royal lantern
a random short vendetta proc doesnt really give you something
distant lava
I would still go get VoP , you never what might happen
royal lantern
cus vendetta need setup too be good
distant lava
specially since it's one of the easier essences to get
royal lantern
we are not paladins/dh where the cd is just ''use and forget''
rigid mango
I mean
3 NP proc aint bad
But the minor is literally like, null
It does nothing on ST
amber quail
The only matter in M+ are tirannò al fight where boss stand up over 4min. There the 3ss+3eb lost too much dmg cause of low haste.
rigid mango
What?
royal lantern
what has 3ss 3eb too do with low haste
you have low haste cus haste has really low value in multitarget situations, and crit/mastery gives you more for that
amber quail
Love that setup, but running with 3ttk+2/3 ss/eb is better, depend by istance afflix
If you have 2OP can manage damage on ST
distant lava
es , nettero ?
rigid mango
Nah, 3 ttk aint that good anymore
amber quail
Haste has low value in sim on MT, not on ST. Tirannical boss with hight life pool last in about more than 4 min and dps drop top much
rigid mango
3 ss is better in like, every dungeon
amber quail
Netterò=dmg 😆 write by my iPhone
@rigid mango yes in MT and short fight or if you have OP on 3rd ring
young portal
@robust river would probably run the 425 for now, you run HC EP every week though right? Aim for the crit/mastery cloak from Za'qul
amber quail
I dunno which key level, but over 16 tirannical with lot hp are bad for 3ss+3EB and low haste
robust river
Yeah we run every week, up to Za'qul who should go down this week I suspect
Hows this stat distribution looking for M+? Can probably look to drop another few points of haste I assume and still need a few upgrades from M+
Sadly M+ traits are 2SS/2EB/1DD/1TWinds for now. Not had the Azerite pieces i need yet.
young portal
Little bit more crit is needed I think, less haste as you said. But as you're still getting gear it looks okay
robust river
Perfect, cheers.
young portal
Yw, gl with Za'qul
rigid mango
@amber quail I'm not saying 3 eb, I'm saying 3 ss
And it fits the seasons profile super well
You don't chainpull often, you get consistant restealths and you don't lose value from it
3 ttk isn't as good this season
strange python
Might be a dumb question but how do I use CLF in raid?
drifting cloud
In the opener, after MA/Subt window, before vendetta and then on cooldown as it's not buffed by any of your other Rogue abilities. Minor gain in some situations holding for 3rd Vendetta (Providing you don't miss a cast) due to the haste procs.
dark crag
Clf ele gives you haste
shadow ravine
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
hoary crown
Ffs blizzard... leather users got the short end of the stick regarding appearance on the new sets🤢
solid nova
strange python
Thanks @drifting cloud 😄
crystal storm
Hey guys is there a specific amount haste that I should be shooting for a a bare minimum? I have a hard time getting 3 envenoms off during a toxic blade even when pooling energy sometimes. I always feel like I have to refresh my dots during toxic blade. Am I doing something wrong? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rpnL14GDMxmVJH7A/#fight=last&type=summary&source=19
rigid mango
No, there are no caps or anything you need
Aslong as you're simming yourself regularly to see that what you have equipped is the best, you're fine
tropic ocean
@crystal storm there will always be moments where you need to refresh dots during toxic blade so dont worry about it
as long as you get 2 envenom inside tb window you're good
crystal storm
@tropic ocean thanks.
tropic ocean
the gain is not a big one pooling for 3 envenom into tb, raidbots is refreshing during tb as well and is pumping so
all good
edgy plover
Whats the best traits for single target? 😄
rigid mango
The ones that sim the best
DD, NP, BBI, Loyal, TTK's decent too but on some of the best pieces
edgy plover
Okay thanks, Is shrouded suffocation not good tho?
rigid mango
It's good, but it means you opt into running subterfuge
And subterfuge isn't as good as MA is
distant lava
for ST
worldly iron
yeah they were talking ST, dj
chilly wasp
Yo guys ^^ is there a new Essence build?
rigid mango
No?
Do you mean like, a new essence build as in the new ones coming in 8.3 that we've barely seen and can't sim yet
or do you mean a new, current essence build
chilly wasp
new currently
edgy plover
okay thanks, how many dd, np etc do you recommend? @rigid mango
chilly wasp
Im running Memory main Condesed life force and the unbound force
chilly wasp
thats why i ask ^^
rigid mango
sim yourself
worldly iron
it's not really a "new" essence build
chilly wasp
tells me its the best, but i dont feel like
worldly iron
chilly wasp
condesed r3
rigid mango
Then that'll sim best as major
chilly wasp
i got r3 Condesed iris crucible and worldvein
rigid mango
not lucid?
chilly wasp
no, i hate nazjatar
rigid mango
Do it.
chilly wasp
it takes long
worldly iron
if you're asking "what's best" and then you're not willing to do what it takes
chilly wasp
i mean i wnt for it
worldly iron
then you shouldn't minmax, as zine beat me to it
tropic ocean
im confused didnt you say you run memory major before
it will be still good as minor even on r2
hardy mural
rigid mango
tough dome
snagged a socketed inkpod last night, it sims better so I'm going to use it for ST, does it work well in M+? I wasn't sure since stuff may die too fast for the stacks to matter? I have a 415 razor coral, 410 dice w/ socket, 435 inkpod w/ socket, 420 spyglass. I was running spyglass and dice for m+ lately but I wasn't sure if inkpod would be a viable option for mythics?
arctic walrus
Inkpod works well in m+ if you need the priority damage. it will stack to a good amount of bosses
Probably would run it with the coral or spyglass
hollow stone
The dream of maining rogue again next tier is alive!! Dont #off-topic me, @rigid mango
hollow stone
Cant wait to live in here again. Any info yet on new essences or is it too soon?
rigid mango
i've not read up on anything, and I don't see anyone else really commenting that much
I'm just weary after all the blood nerfs before 8.2, to get too hyped up about any essence
hollow stone
Yea. Thats fair
rigid mango
People thinking VoP'll be good, no.
PP got buffs, might be a bit better but inconsistancy issues are still there
Reckless force is just whack
hollow stone
I would imagine there will be multiple aberration bosses
rigid mango
One could assume so
I'm just interested in seeing whether PP can take it on ST too then
Out value iris/conflict and other stuff like crucible
hollow stone
I havent looked at sims for sin in a while but im assuming pp mjr isnt THAT far behind
Its pretty decent
rigid mango
Major?
It's real bad
Minor? Maybe?
I don't see anything outvaluing CLF anytime soon though
Unless it has significant scaling issues against blood
But it still has % in there, so scaling can't be that bad
brave vector
Clf, lucid, iris
hollow stone
Haste from iris that good eh?
brave vector
Deadly ticks proc the haste stacks
hollow stone
Lucid is too good as a minor
rigid mango
waaaaay too good
There's no way it's getting removed unless there's subtantial nerfs
This looks underwhelming
But idk about PPM
brave vector
All the new essences look meh
hollow stone
You also need to factor in that corruption reduction. Whatever that means
Havent seen any info other than that ominous post about titanforging regarding corruption
I could see us being “forced” into new essences for that
brave vector
I see most raids just continuing on with CLF and having someone run
rigid mango
Just looks suuper stupid
Run one of those and just use each CLF everyone else does
That's an obscene amount of damage
brave vector
Yep....
rigid mango
CLF's scaling issues would be nulled even if there properly are any
Which I don't see atm
Doesn't say the CD of it though
Also it'd also be a 15 sec CLF
Not 30
brave vector
The minor for moment of glory just allowing for more CLFs in a fight on top of that
rigid mango
So it's just a meh CLF in a lot of scenarios
brave vector
The copy essence also gives you a 30% longer cd on your essence usage. Underwhelming
fleet whale
zzz clf still good
inner wedge
Is Force Multiplier better of worth than Navigations? Considering I have 8 sockets
latent gazelle
usually but sim it vs others
rigid mango
Sim it.
inner wedge
Sim says I have optimal gear, at the same time stat weight says haste is better for me...5.96 vs 5.16 for crit and I have a lot of crit gems
latent gazelle
dont use stat weights. Top gear is your friend
inner wedge
so in general Force Multiplier is on par with navigations?
latent gazelle
^
olive egret
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
royal lantern
force muliplier is different for everyone
like, for me right now quick and deadly are simming better, for other people its force 🤷
minor thicket
Hey guys quick question. If my talent is Elaborate Planning. When exactly does it proc?
Is it every time a finisher is used?
arctic walrus
Yes
minor thicket
And it’s lasts 4 seconds so you can constantly rebuff it without it running out essentially
Until you’re out of energy?
arctic walrus
Technically yes, but you shouldn't be doing that
minor thicket
Why not
arctic walrus
Why would you
arctic walrus
That is a loss of damage
minor thicket
Just trying to grasp Elaborate planning better
royal lantern
Its a nice buff,but not worth too play arouns
arctic walrus
If you have the energy, you worry about envenom
royal lantern
You get more dmg by doing your normal 4+ finisher
minor thicket
Ok gotcha
arctic walrus
If you have extra extra energy, then sure don't refrsh early of ep
But your gameplay will not change to accommodate for it
minor thicket
Ok sounds good. Wasn’t sure if I should be changing for EP
Another question. Ideally. When I pop TB how many envenoms should you be getting off?
drifting cloud
2-3
twilit seal
for tyranical still crit+master and mostly zero haste?
signal thunder
Hi guys, sorry if I missed the answer to this earlier but: with Vision being buffed, is it worth to pick in 8.3 with DDx3 and NPx3?
drifting cloud
🔮
brave vector
To elaborate if we can’t sim it’s we don’t know the answer. It will probably be a no thought seeing as you want to stack your vendetta and vanish
signal thunder
Cool, will just wait until we have a better idea closer to January. It was just a passing thought to see if anyone saw a potential in this change.
rigid mango
No, VoP won't be good.
lethal heart
rigid mango
Playing without a minor
A major that more or less needs you to go 3 NP
And that's if there's even a helm with dd np op and chest with it too
both from new raid
just no, no it won't be good enough
There're too many variables that have to align for it to ever be considered as even a choice, even more so the best
agile oar
Hey guys i got a question does the guardian work with the 30% damage buff vandetta gives or does he not do the extra 30%?
icy ember
i THINK it doesn't effect the guardian of azeroth
agile oar
ok so i shouldn't wait to pop it with vandetta
meager nebula
vendetta only affects rogue abilities
icy ember
the 5% buff to your dmg works tho, but that is just part of the ability
so you should pop it within 10s of using vendetta
meager nebula
yes, outside damage buffs affect your abilities
icy ember
ye, vop is just awful
it separates your talents like vendetta, vanish, etc... and we are all about focusing on windows of dmg
agile oar
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wPoYJZCZzCf9cguaKVrZU1 this is my sim but i don't seem to be doing much damage when raiding
arctic walrus
then link a log not a sim
icy ember
well you dont have any benthic is the first problem w/your gear
since you linked a raid parse i assume you are raiding
icy ember
oh roger
you have them low ilvl, i feel ya
but even then, if they have a socket, they are likely simming better, you should check them on raidbots
arctic walrus
Why are you not vanishing after vendetta
agile oar
so i need to get them socketed as well damn i just wasted 50 pearls on boots upgrade
agile oar
I don't know the rotation i should be doing
icy ember
w/MA i do this: M R M G Ven TB M til +4 Vanish E M E
tropic ocean
no
rough veldt
hi all, im currently using 430 dead eye spyglass with 50 crit gem, how much dps + would i get if i replace that with 430 font?
tropic ocean
you should have enough combo points after tb
rough veldt
sims tell me 700 dps but how accurate is that
rough veldt
would you use the 415 font over the 430 spyglass with socket?
rough veldt
is raidbot sim always accurate for us in patchwork gear compare
strange python
Boys i have 438ilvl and i wanna switch assa(i'm outlaw) but i don't have any daggers which daggers i can easily farm? in MM+ there os no dagger?
rigid mango
Just farm UR
strange python
That fist weapon is good? ok ty!
arctic walrus
I mean, no you can't use
strange python
That's what i guess assa is daggers only
arctic walrus
But it drops a dagger and your tusk, so you can just knock them out at the same time
rancid bobcat
daggers don't drop for outlaw loot spec so they wont show up in dungeon journal if it's not set to assassination
rancid bobcat
yup kinda sucks
strange python
So xD which daggers is better in mm+? UR?
rancid bobcat
any without haste
but you can still use dagger with haste
since weapons don't have much secondary stats
modest tendon
What is better on average this week for WM, 222 or 3ss,2ttk,1eb?
rigid mango
Probably 3 ss
modest tendon
Ye maybe, more boss damage might be preferable
rancid bobcat
its not like ur gimped if you dont have something super specific
restive orchid
Is 3 ttk or 3 DD better at high simming?
tropic ocean
2dd 1ttk3dd 1ttk depending on chest setup
as these are the current best pieces you can get
restive orchid
ah mk, ty
agile oar
I run 3 ss and 3 echo blades for mythic plus
not sure if best but aoe fights i destroy
restive orchid
yeah i'm talking ST raid dmg
i run 3 ttks atm and i'm simming 40k
haven't gotten 3 dds to stack yet
agile oar
I run 2 dd 3 np and 1 ttks
restive orchid
what are you simming?
restive orchid
roger, ty
agile oar
i prefer running 3 dd and 3 np but right now is not possible
restive orchid
that rfc adds quite a bit though yes?
strange python
I'm wanting to get back into my rogue but didn't really see an optimal trait setup for m+. Should I just stacks ss and eb for m+?
agile oar
from what i've seeen and done i run 3 ss 3 eb depending on affix . other build is 3 ss and 3 ttks
rigid mango
3 ss 1 eb + another eb, ttk or bbi
agile oar
or that one ^
strange python
Ttk is twist of the knife right?
rigid mango
ye
strange python
Cool thanks for the answer :)
tulip lily
hey, fighting mythic queens court tonight. does detection work in between abilities for Repeat Performance?
i tried using Distract but still got silenced
stuck knoll
Yeah it does
rigid mango
Yes
fathom wyvern
