id definitely also save rolls for blackwater chest if you do any mythic raiding since you could really do with a better chestpiece
#assassination
nimble tinsel
Yea we were comparing best options of first 3 bosses of mythic and M+ purchase
raven mica
i was gonna ask of like: why didnt you just roll pieces
nimble tinsel
I'm running it one more time with different trait options for the Slithering helm since I haven't really seen that recommended before, just to be safe
drifting cloud
you put scent on slithering loa lol
shut garnet
do you? 
drifting cloud
the guy simming did
drifting cloud
I guess the problem is when you get slithering you dont have 1 np
shut garnet
he has tidal
pseudo hamlet
I also didn't consider swirling sand being that good tbh.
shut garnet
i think you go for goraks since thats bis no matter how much you progress
nimble tinsel
But it's close with Gorak, so it's really just going to be a matter of picking one and hoping the raid alternative doesn't drop xD
drifting cloud
you also have heed my call in shoulders, so it probably wins even more
shut garnet
the only solid logic behind getting loa instead is if your guild never manages to kill zaqul i guess
because then you'll never get the bis head
but idk
shut garnet
yeah true, you can always go engi helm with goraks
goraks is just 
and where are u getting those stats from
im pretty sure more than 1k guilds have killed it so far
world
drifting cloud
what? zaqul is on like 500
and by that he means that guilds will extend once they kill it
nimble tinsel
549 per wowprogress
shut garnet
damn okay
drifting cloud
atleast a very good portion of them
nimble tinsel
Not even 1k have killed court (including mine kek)
pseudo hamlet
Thanks for the help guys. 🙂
shut garnet
since we were on about zaqul, how do you guys play assa on that boss
im on prog on mythic and it feels so terrible 
i respecced to outlaw for the fight
is there anything that assa does better than the other 2 specs on that fight
raven mica
the spec you play should be decided by your RL on that fight
Assassination with VOP Minor is one of the best classes for killing the psychotic split in the delirium realm
shut garnet
most just seem to go pp 🤔
tropic ocean
no point to go pp on sin unless u dont go down and want to pad
if you need to go down bote, lucid, vision for sure
rain pewter
tropic ocean
no
subtle tundra
i knew it
tropic ocean
if crimson tempest is for anything than its aoe
but its a big dps loss on tyrannical st
shut garnet
does a 430 normal spyglass really win compared to 440 inkpod or 430 socket harlan dice
tropic ocean
i use 410 socket spyglass over my inkpod
just feels though I dont feel inkpod is good on sin in m+ at all
using 410 spyglass and 445 socketed dice or 440? cant remember
cuz im too lazy to press coral 😄
tropic ocean
its a super good trinket and doesnt require u to press anything
tropic ocean
No
shut garnet
really? crit mastery seems really solid
tropic ocean
they cant roll up to max itemlevel
fleet whale
There aren't any daggers with crazy effects on them like the axe outlaw rogues use, whatever is your highest ilvl daggers are will likely be BIS, except for off-hand sometimes
tropic ocean
for off hand you want your best stat + socket
sim gives more accurate answer but socket + good stats in off hand usually around 25-30 ilvl
at least
fleet whale
It would be nice if we got some daggers that had a cool damage proc on it. And no the TW dagger doesn't count
tropic ocean
Diver‘s folly on sin would be pog
shut garnet
wdym they cant roll up to max item lvl
assuming you're comparing everything at 445 lvl say, would they be the best ones in that slot is what i meant
since they gives the most desired stats for that specific content
tropic ocean
you cant get 445
shut garnet
they cant titanforge??
tropic ocean
Only from weekly chest
they can, up to 440
And up to 450 from weekly
So bis weapon for mh will be raid one
shut garnet
haste though 
tropic ocean
For off hand will be your best stats + socket + highest ilvl possible
shut garnet
are sockets for weapons as valuable as they are for all other gear slots?
tropic ocean
at least 25-30 ilvl
shut garnet
so say, would ur dagger overweigh sivara blade if it was 430 socket
ah yeah ok so same thing pretty much
tropic ocean
In off hand yes
shut garnet
is main hand strict ilvl?
shut garnet
damn okay
idk why but it seems weird that a 430 dagger with a socket would still not be better than a 445 weapon with "worse" stats in main hand
but yeah
tyvm for the explanation
tropic ocean
ilvl > all in main hand
tropic ocean
with current amount of stats and how weapon dps is weighted even 5 higher ilvl mh with ur worst stats will be superior over socketed best stats one
fleet whale
they also changed how weapon damage worked in BFA. Basically every ability you do scales off of your main-hand weapon
shut garnet
so technically the best weapon you could get for m+ would be the court dagger
since it has vers instead of haste
and sivara blade for raod
shut garnet
yeah theyre crit->mast=vers>haste
tropic ocean
theres no definite answer to what will be best
fleet whale
stats on weapons aren't budgeted high to begin with, and like Aus said, BiS lists don't really exist anymore
tropic ocean
With 3 op and iris court dagger will probably be better than sivara in raid
fleet whale
except for some specific items like azerite, trinkets, etc
shut garnet
feels sad amn
tropic ocean
theres a hypothetical bis if you could access every item socket max roll
But thats very unlikely to achieve by anyone
so you fill the slots you own/can access (through raid progression/what azerite you got) and fill the rest with the potential bis that fits to it
so if you have 3 op traits on ur azerite u will need other rings legs etc than someone that doesnt
Or if you have loyal trait etc etc
fleet whale
a concrete BiS list that was reasonably obtainable died in Legion
tropic ocean
yup
legion was pretty straight forward as 4 slots were filled by tier set
2 by leggy
1 by trinket
fleet whale
yeah, but M+ and sockets/titanforging made it difficult for the other pieces
shut garnet
for m+ its kinda the same now though
like, no one will ever get a sim that says "get more than 6/7% haste" on dungeon slice 
tropic ocean
dungeon slice is useless anyway
haste is not super bad its just easier to get free haste by op traits and more valuable to put the stats into rest
As you only „need“ the haste in boss st
shut garnet
i really wonder what the haste cap is though
as in, how much haste do you need till the patchwerk sim just tells you another stat is more valuable
im running iris minor with 3op and like 20% haste and its still my best stat
tropic ocean
well
When I was in delirium I was capped by gcd so latest at 100% + its not the best stat anymore
think around 25% with 3op iris and ring set haste is done iirc
fleet whale
There are moments where sockets don't always win vs ilvl. Like my 430 regular font is an upgrade over the 415 with a socket that i had prior. But ilvl scaling on font is pretty good
dark crag
Trinkets are the exceptions because they scale abit different than normal items with just stats
fleet whale
it's been said many times before but blizz really screwed up on Stat scaling for BFA, and i don't know how
dark crag
What happened to the skill rework of using both, ap and weapon dps? Wasn't that one of the bigget changes in bfa? Yet agi is worth a bit more than half of my best stat
vast forum
how exactly have they screwed stat scaling? it's the same as it's always been
tough skiff
Hi im a new rogue, suggested essence traits for M+?
fleet whale
primaries have never ranked so low, ever. Blizz themselves thought gearing in BFA would be simple with ilvl being king
drifting cloud
well depends on the class really
and since assa rogues secondaries are so close aswell alot of the time in good gear, ilvl then wins again
but since the actual weight of agi is pretty low like you said you dont gain big numbers from it
drifting cloud
yeah but I think it drops really fast when you get some
I have the same thing afaik
but since its so close I just keep m+ gems who cares about 100 dps
tropic ocean
well im ilvl 447
And basically worst 2nd stat is stilL >>>> agi
so not sure when ilvl wins
vast forum
you don't realise why agi is so low
because they put so much agi on gear that its value is reduced relative to other stats
but when an item has 700 agi and 100 secondaries, getting the same item 15 ilvl higher will give you >100 more agi and ~15 more secondaries, so ilvl will still win
the only problem with this is that this makes sockets worth too much
if sockets gave 20 secondaries instead of 50, ilvl would actually be king
ilvl is king when all your secondary stat weights are close together, not when agi is higher than secondaries
tropic ocean
in that case
yeah
but the itemlevel difference needs to be really high
like 445 is 575 agi and 305 off stat, 430 is 500 agi and 290 off stat with my current stat weights
445 will be 5.08 * 305+575 * 2.71= 3107
while 430 with socket would be 500 * 2.71 + 310 * 5.08= 2929 so a dps again of 178
would be good in the scenario that secondary stats are close together but at least for me best is 5.08 and worst is 4.47 so it gets more complex when one stat on the item is weighted at 4.47 and the other on 5.08 if you socket the 5.08 it adds a lot of value even at 20 stat
however, it would be a better system than the one right now
vast forum
i mean
completely removing RNG sockets would be the best
mythic gear should have sockets guaranteed
hc gear can get it randomly but mythic is guaranteed = good game
dark crag
Or profs can add sockets to your gear like old belt thing
slow mortar
Make rings and neck have socket cause you ain't putting bling on your boots
Maybe wrists cause cufflinks
vast forum
i don't care what slots have sockets and what's the reasoning behind it as long as it's deterministic
rare pond
I seem to get consistently low damage on m ashvane, what do you guys usually do on her? I figured the gameplan would just be to hold CD's until first break and slam in, but I can't seem to get above 40k. Last week on our kill I was at 39k and parsed like, 21%
I don't think it's a gear issue
royal lantern
tbh, as sin you should just use cd's on...well....cd
and ofc your logs will be bad if you keep your cd's and stuff, cus you will be meassured against people that use it on cd
median hedge
yeah a lot of our damage is tied up in vendetta so youd do more damage if you had your opener burst and vend every 2mins, which is what a lot of other logs have
but depending on your group its probably better in terms of useful damage that you hold
also some of the higher logs now are 2 phasing it
rare pond
well, I was sat this week because I couldn't keep damage up, so I'm triyng to see what I can do to fix that
royal lantern
its hard too say that stuff for ashvane cus we dont know the numbers you guys are doing
median hedge
yeah he linked his logs above
royal lantern
sorry, mid dungeon, didnt saw
median hedge
looks like he's wearing solid azerite, mostly benthic (belt not socketed but thats only a few hundred dps) and a 445 wep
also good uptime on garotte and vendetta
tropic ocean
you do 49k when shield is down
which is not bad
but theres definetely room to up it
median hedge
yeah
tropic ocean
obviously compared to every rogue ur dmg is bad because many rogues in many good guilds can just vendetta on cd
as they have enough raid dps to 2 phase anyway
so while progressing/needing to hold cd I wouldn't worry about it
your dmg while bl is up in 2nd shieldphase can be signifcantly improved though
idk what you are doing there but 63k is really low
why are you not using your major essence with bl when 2nd shield breaks?
theres something clearly wrong on your bl shield down phase
rare pond
oh, I just hit it with all my other CD's during first shield break
I can pop it on opener and again on second shield break I guess
tropic ocean
?
u can use it on both shield down phases
if you hold ur cds
you are not using essence at all during your 2nd shield break and bl
and ur highest dps is inkpod proc
rare pond
hmm, maybe I'm just tunnelling and don't see it come up
tropic ocean
this is ur dps during 2nd shield down with bl
this mine
u casted 7 envenom only in 70 seconds window
1 toxic blade
your rupture falls off as well, 88% uptime
seems like you generally lose casts/boss uptime during that phase
rare pond
well that's probably a big part of it
tropic ocean
be sure to just be on boss and hit it
you wont cut corals or do any mechanic
and def make sure to use essence
be it bote or clf or whatever
rare pond
thanks for helping me look into it 🙂
tropic ocean
as you can see my guardian did 420k dmg that would've brought your dps from 63k to 69k
1 tb not missed 4 envenoms not missed -> 80k dps
and make sure to reactivate razor coral (after u activated it for inkpod)
its only a little gain, but everything is dps
vast forum
guardian also applies 10% haste to you + 5% dmg increase on the target
this week i did 68.8k dps to ashvane in exposed azerite, aka dps across both burst phases excluding bubbles
i think you should aim for ~55k+
vast forum
probably not reclearing next week 🤷
rare pond
With my team do you think it's worth still holding CDs or should I just pop from the start?
tropic ocean
ur dps is more than enough during exposed azerite
we had a little more and easily 2 phased it before nerf
so u can probably use on cd
if dps is as in your log
scarlet sequoia
tropic ocean
just hope that noone else thinks the same
as it could turn out to be no 2 phase then 😛
vast forum
tbh holding CDs for 2-phase strat shouldn't reduce your dps too much, anything under a 50% rank is just personal underperformance
arctic walrus
Imagine private logging in 2019 
bleak spoke
@tropic ocean man extending takes so much fun out of raiding but at the same time a good night with actual progress is what feels the best so idk
I just think this raid is so reclearable so it’s kinda annoying
arctic walrus
Still would appreciate them reintroducing skips
tropic ocean
definetely
tropic ocean
idk why they removed skips
arctic walrus
bod did feel way worse to reclear than ep
tropic ocean
It was so good in atbt
bleak spoke
Am I crazy or was there way more trash in bod
tropic ocean
vel became zine 
bleak spoke
That’s cursed don’t say that
arctic walrus
Daddy crit isn't around, can do whatever we want
tropic ocean
lets be good boys
placid dawn
how many stacks of loyal does the sim use?
dense cedar
@placid dawn The sim options let you set how many you want
placid dawn
thanks
cobalt pelican
if you don't care at all about how your damage is spread bleeding everything fully that will live long enough is best i believe
vast forum
rupture has by far the highest dpet of all finishers
bleak spoke
Other than guaranteed crit envenoms I think yeah
So probably a mistake to need to rupture in a coral window
vast forum
i just checked 1 of the sims i did a while ago and rupture has 100k dpet, while envenom has 60k... even if envenom was suddenly guaranteed to crit, it wouldn't be as high as rupture and rupture also benefits from crit
modest tendon
It depends on pack size, smaller packs you do more damage using envenom s, bigger packs you fok spam
Pretty sure On orgazoa, you maintain rupture on the adds and then envenom pump into the boss when you can
Although most of the high end assa logs use eb sob builds so it’s likely they are barely touching the boss
tropic ocean
For max dps with aoe build u dot for energy
And spam fok
Thats it
if you want you can use crimson tempest as well
modest tendon
Is this in relation to orgazoa ausgebt?
arctic walrus
It's not a gain to over cap points spamming fok on orgozoa target count
Keep all bleeds up and then env otherwise, and especially if you're running 3 eb, CT is a dps loss simply by pressing it
placid dawn
I had 2 EB 2 scent 1 TTK and 1 loyal
seemed to work fine
did 70k dps and 4th boss damage
at the end i wasnt sure how many ads to dot though
i kept it to 4 like in m+ and then went full sub rogue
honest needle
what order to upgrade benthic first after boots
waist ?
i did boots first
also i was told sin rogues can sell freehold 110-120 carry runs is this true ?
cerulean jackal
430 spyglass or 440 tiny electromental in jar for M+?
dungeon slice isnt good for sin ey..
honest needle
does any 1 kno ?
rigid mango
Sim it.
pseudo hamlet
@honest needle You can check out the raidbot droptimizer 🙂
glad compass
does double dose change the number of targets that you start using fan of knifes instead
distant lava
yes
hoary patrol
Ideal m+ traits combo? Also do you still do decent single targer in m+ when going with high crit, mastery and almost no haste build?
I might swap from outlaw to sin just to try something new
glad compass
how many tatgets do you fok with double dose traits
hoary patrol
4+ I think
stiff vortex
Wich is bettet for only Single Target ss Build or Master assassin ?
raven mica
stiff vortex
I wasnt Asking waht is better for ME.
scarlet sequoia
No problem
alpine cave
Hi guys
Could you please tell me how to use Guardian of Azeroth with MA opener?
I'd like to know when to use.
distant lava
just before you cast vendetta
alpine cave
Thanks.
So that would be
/castsequence reset=60 Mutilate, Rupture, Mutilate, Garrote, Guardian of Azeroth, Vendetta, Toxic Blade, Vanish, Envenom, Mutilate, Envenom
distant lava
yeah
or mutilate mutilate rupture
depending on the cp you gain from the first mutilate
alpine cave
So, Vendetta will not benefit from Master assassin?
distant lava
what ?
alpine cave
Vendetta usage is out of MA crit proc
red jolt
Hallo, which WA do you guys use for shroud countdown? I see some ppl have a countdown from 3 or so before they use it too, cant find that.
distant lava
wtf are you talking about
rigid mango
Vend doesn't snapshot crit
alpine cave
If I use mutilate mutilate rupture, the window is over
alpine cave
I want to know why they put Vendetta with Nothing Personal traits out of the window?
rigid mango
It's a dot my dude
alpine cave
Thanks
So 1st usage is not important, since Vendetta DOT will be included in 2nd MA window after vanish.
I see
That's the answer.
distant lava
no
rigid mango
But why do you care about the dot
alpine cave
Because I have 2 x Nothing Personal traits
dark crag
It's a dot
dark crag
Don't care about np dot, be happy it's there
rigid mango
Not even sure if it gets inc crit chance since it's a trait
dark crag
Vend a target dummy and vanish
dark crag
Did that in legion as sub with legy shoulders before np was dmg nerfed
You vanish and dots got 100% crit
alpine cave
I remembered it
dark crag
If you play ss you won't have ma
alpine cave
No, I am full MA now
dark crag
I suggest you read the wowhead guide again
simple gulch
how's sin compared to outlaw in m+
simple gulch
like 3x EB?
simple gulch
what about scent?
dark crag
and then you mix in different stuff for what you like/do more
scent is bad vs the other options
like aoe heavy with big pulls on non tiranical 3eb or small cleave 3ss
simple gulch
I think I have good pieces for m+ for sin
dark crag
i am currently running 2ss 2eb 1ttk 1 loyal, because i've seen many pug people using loyal + i have nothing better on 450 and the def traits on the pieces are very nice, 1 rp 1gemhide 1bulwark
simple gulch
ok ty for the info
acoustic bramble
Hey guys, i want to ask something about T1 talents. I understand the value of Elaborate Planning but since this season we are playing 3xDD traits, then why isn't Master Poisoner the to-go talent here? On the tooltip it states that DD "poisons" the target for x damage, i guess it does not count as poison?
tropic ocean
because its not master alchemist from legion anymore
let me log my rogue
there we go
acoustic bramble
Hmm true
tropic ocean
in legion it was super strong
but then they changed it with bfa
in legion elaborate planning gave 15-12% dmg for 5 sec and master poisoner was still better due to relics and buffing everything 😄
acoustic bramble
I see, alright thanks!
honest silo
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
royal lantern
and in legion your mastery was only for poisons too, poison bomb was a huge part of your dmg, mastery scaled better etc...........
vestal wren
to be fair poison bomb is far better in bfa
royal lantern
its less bullshit in bfa cus its a nice litle proc
in legion poison bomb could give you insane dmg with lucky procs
and it was you entire aoe 🤷
vestal wren
pb and bracers could mean #1 log on any fight could be anyone
royal lantern
im sure everyone that played sin in legion had that 1 pull
where you got like 6pb procs on pull with hero
and you did like 80%raid dmg
tropic ocean
legion pb was bad
by law it only procced when pull was dead and 2 mobs left
I mean its still bad, but somewhat better than in legion - they should make it somewhat more consistent or controllable like ever x finishers you throw a poison bomb
royal lantern
nah, the other rogue in your raidgroup, that is dogshit by default
tropic ocean
or just give it an icd
royal lantern
got 100000pb procs on execute range, and turned #1 dps cus of it
that was the pb law
vast forum
Just make it like system shock
vast forum
If rup/garr/dp on target, and you use a 5cp env, pb procs
tropic ocean
still would need icd
vast forum
And give an icd and bigger dmg, so it's more interesting
royal lantern
i mean, current pb is fine and everything
vast forum
The most interesting talents are undertuned
royal lantern
i was dissapointed when pre-patch came out
and fking poison bomb, a trait everyone hated
vast forum
Blindside might as well not exist
royal lantern
turned into a talent
vast forum
Exsg is no longer a thing
royal lantern
exsg was not really a thing for quite some time now
tropic ocean
exsang was so nice to play
I mean if you desperately need burst its still good with 3 ss but only in very niche situations
like logging on boss that has verylow kill time or shit
vestal wren
exsang is in my opinion to close to TB
royal lantern
you mean, they are too simmelar?
vestal wren
they are very similar yes
f.ex. having KB instead of one of those would make the choices more interessting
digital shore
Mainly for M+, should I spend my rerolls tomorrow raid on Coral/Font or on a Azerite piece with 2nd and 3rd SS? Yeah I have only 1 now, never get any 😢
vestal wren
is font that good in m+?
digital shore
I have no idea, that's why I am asking
edgy pawn
Should be good, but too clunky to use for my liking
digital shore
I can understand. Does it take you out of stealth?
dark crag
Font does
arctic walrus
Go for the coral and the SS, font is good but in reality it is too much larger a hassle to play around when compared to stuff like spyglass
digital shore
Alright thanks!
cobalt pelican
font is ok
don't think it's something i'd ever aim to use though unless i had a huge one
royal tree
Anyone had any success with using purification protocol minor on Gorgonzola? For abb damage
rancid bobcat
wcl is split between strife and protocol
so it depends on what you mean by success
i wish they would finally change the minor talent icon
tropic ocean
@digital shore azerite>>>> font/coral
digital shore
HM okay. Seems evident by my dps meter. Garrote is always highest damage even with only 1 SS
tropic ocean
@royal tree it is decent for aoe
robust river
Anyone got 2minutes just to have look through my gear and highlight anything I can definitely get rid off? Inventory getting clogged and struggling to indentify whats defeinitely dead weight with shifting priorities in M+/PE
royal lantern
idk what you want us too say
you can get better stuff on every single slot just by m10 spamming
robust river
Well.. I know that and I'm trying. Just trying to clear some space but don't like throwing stuff away I might need haha, I'm a hoarder
cobalt pelican
every cape that's not equipped, every wrist that's not oris, all of the legs besides 440 and 415socket, all of the gloves except 435 and poens, all of the belts except vims
dark crag
azerite + notbenthic stuff for m+ and all kinds of trinkets
hazy crater
Got myself in a pickle with trinkets for M+. Got 415 coral, 430 plumage, 440 inkpod, 445 phial and 440 harlans dice
royal lantern
coral and dice i gues
fervent jasper
What 3rd minor do you run for m+?
hazy crater
just have focusing iris on this char for 3rd atm
arctic walrus
c&s
hazy crater
oh it was a general question 😄
midnight blade
hey, got a question. whats the correct coral usage? with every vendetta? (except first?)
tropic ocean
swift moss
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
golden roost
My rank 3 Focusing Iris in the major slot sims 2k pts higher than my rank 3 Condensed Life-Force; does this sound right?
distant lava
you simmed dungeon slice ?
golden roost
Good call! No idea how I missed that.
real solar
In KR, you can evasion Severing Axe from council right?
quasi ledge
Yes you can
real solar
Thanks
rancid bobcat
whoa nelly haste finally out of the top weight
so what's up with blood of the enemy on all the mythic azshara kills? is it just for the small adds in p2?
tropic ocean
you use bote in azshara because the encounter needs small windows of high burst dmg rather than higher overall
(overzealous hulk, the 3 adds, pushing azshara to 68% before add spawns)
and bote with the cd lines up pretty well to use it with vendetta on 2 adds
rancid bobcat
so you desync it from vendetta?
tropic ocean
no
rancid bobcat
o
tropic ocean
personally I had times where I desynced it from vendetta (2nd hulk and the azshara devoted that run towards mid) but its bad, so try to fix the dmg within raid rather than seperating them
tropic ocean
yep
u can vendetta first and third
and then vendetta bote azshara again when u bl and zerg so
pretty good essence for the fight
rare pond
my team wanted me to go only single target on orgo. got an 18 parse on damage, but a 95 on boss damage lol
tropic ocean
thats fine if thats what your group needs
with more gear and when you reclear the boss u can probably get a good log
timber meadow
Y’all run visions on za’q ye?
cobalt pelican
if you're on both of the echos yes
bleak spoke
@tropic ocean I think maybe that’s actually accurate most of the logs have it desynced
I was trying to figure out what i was messing up for timings cuz whenever we pushed it a little quicker than normal (like right as she was doing the beckon and not beating the wall by a second) my vendetta would be kinda off
Previously I was holding v for third blood
modest badge
would sob be better for pvp then having a 2nd shroud?
soft steppe
is deadly poison or wound poison better for arenas?
zinc zealot
@hazy crater run plumage and dice
safe relic
yo mates can i ask something..that im curious
On boss fights i was refreshing rapture so iit gets the full duration on targer
target
but when i saw "worstplayer" stream he was letting rapture expire and he was refreeshing it eeven with 2 or 3 cps
tropic ocean
and yes in some circumstances u refresh rupture with 3 cp to keep uptime (eg when you need to play mechanics)
rigid mango
Feel free to link where he did this
safe relic
on jaina
tropic ocean
pretty sure he doesnt generally does it
But probably had to play mechanic
Or in jaina boss was close to dieng
safe relic
i wouldnt ask if he did it like 1 time
but he was playing like that the entire fight thats why im curious about that
rigid mango
Link it.
rigid mango
Livestreams have vods
tropic ocean
are you sure he did it on jaina and not on ballista? XD
winter gale
Guys Is it better for me to upgrade Vim's belt from 385 to up or any other from 420 to 425. Vim's atm on 385 and rest are 420. Also, if this will mean anything...we are about to progress Zaqul so maybe I can lift other belt to 425 1st :D. Ty in advance.
rigid mango
If you're gonna prog zaq you wont be using it
rigid mango
Depends on your short/long term views
safe relic
but if u think ur luck will be bad
winter gale
4
safe relic
u can upgrade to 425
tropic ocean
generally upgrade priority is wrist>gloves (due to ilvl increasing the dmg proc a lot)
for the static buff items (boots, aberration belt) the gain from upgrading it is very minimal
i'd put belt from 385 to 400 as it is little pearls for 15 lvls and then focus on upping the other items - however since all ur other items are 420 already and u need 100 pearls to upgrade one you should sim if the upgrade of belt to 410 or 415 for same pearls isnt a better upgrade
winter gale
Ty guys.
safe relic
btw
400 ilvl benthic boots
sims better than my 450 boots rofl
😄
with haste mastery on stats though
btw @tropic ocean i have 420 hands and belt and 400 boots should i go for wrists or upgrade boots ? hmm...
tropic ocean
a sim will tell you what gives you more dps
you can upgrade boots to 415? or 420? for same pearls
hoary patrol
Why is Crit and Mastery so good in m+? Ive seen top rogues going with 0 haste gear
stuck knoll
Because a lot of what makes haste good is the energy regen and with multiple targets you can keep enough bleeds up at one time that you don’t need any from haste
stuck knoll
You’re definitely gonna drop st with no haste and mostly aoe traits
timid python
what talent should i go in kingrest +17 this week Toxic>PB or Crimson
rigid mango
Always toxic blade and PB
It never changes
every week, every dungeon, every affix. PB.
bright tusk
Iron Wire or Internal Bleeding mythic+?
distant lava
iron wire
bright tusk
dps-wise?
bright tusk
yeah, but I often use kidney shot to cc certain mobs or interrupt certain mobs when kick is on cd.. so I just figured :/
distant lava
yes exactly that row isn't about dmg it's about utility
tropic ocean
mobs will deal less dmg and are silenced forever
distant lava
silencing mobs for longer and reducing the dmg your tank takes on pull is huge
bright tusk
Alrighty then
tropic ocean
theres no point in dropping the best sin talent 😛
short pivot
Iron is literally what makes sin viable such a strong talent
scarlet sequoia
bit of an exaggeration or
mortal basin
3rd Slot Essence, Iris or Conflict + Strife
dark crag
lone junco
@distant lava at one point ib kidney was a significant amount of damage.
But still. Iron wire.
"literally what makes sin viable" lol that's a stretch.
hoary crown
What if I go with poison bomb instead of HB in siege 18 ?
hoary crown
thx mate!
tropic ocean
@lone junco ib does a good amount of dmg but its not worth it to trade for iron wire in m+
rigid mango
I think he of all people knows that
left moth
do the bis benthic hands with socket sim higher than 455 crit haste hands? i didnt upgrade them yet, i switched the code to make them 425 but maybe i fucked up
ah shit i forgot thats a thing, ty xD
strange python
just remember benthics ONLY apply in Eternal Palace/Nazj. I don't know about you, but I'm prettymuch done that raid at this point, even for farm.
rigid mango
and where else are you going to be using that ST build that needs crit and haste?
It's for raid you want that stuff, but for raid benthic's better
So remember, it's still equally irrelevant of a piece (:
strange python
Soloing Legion Raids for me, actually.
but ymmv obviously lol
point was just that grinding tons of pearls to get perfect benthic is kind of pointless at this point unless I guess your guild is still on progression somehow.
arctic walrus
Oh no, only 49 us guilds have killed azshara, prog is over get gud kids
rigid mango
strange python
🤷 you do you I guess. lol
fossil grail
Greeting fellow assassins 😃
cosmic forge
Good morning. Glad I found this channel. I use to be a fairly decent assassination rogue a long time ago, but since coming back to the game I am struggling to keep up 😢 I am hoping to hunt around and find some insight. Thank you.
arctic walrus
Check through the pins and guide for a quick catch up, and if you need personalized help you can link logs as well
cosmic forge
Thanks so much! I have looked though logs and i think i know the issues, but does it makes sense that i can't figure out how to fix it? I will have a look through everything here first! Thanks so much.
summer adder
yw
viscid eagle
what traits are ppl running as assa in m+?
bleak spoke
In a 30 second window is exsang it is Tb going to burst harder in current gear ?
Assuming you can’t restealth
Basically trying to work out a sin switch in for tyrannical siege
rigid mango
hm
bleak spoke
The gripping on the second platform isn’t dying
rigid mango
What azerite are you assuming
bleak spoke
3ss
rigid mango
but no restealth?
bleak spoke
Probably 2 ttk
Yeah no restealth
Like 3 ss 2 ttk blightborne
Probably like font of power + plumage
No matter what I’m going to catch the double on use window with either Tb or the exsang dot
bleak spoke
Can use that too
rigid mango
Since it snapshots haste value
rigid mango
If you don't have vanish up, ye
I'd assume so
whether it's worth while with vanish though, idk
bleak spoke
Can delay Tb for end of vendetta
Can’t delay exsang
Nvm
Actually I can and should delay exsang
I open garrote and then rupture at 4-5
Then vendetta 1 finisher into vanish
viscid eagle
what eb short for?
stable isle
undulating tides sims properly but assumes 100% uptime on dps unless you tell raidbots otherwise. its in the section with loyal to the end allies etc
royal lantern
tides is a bit of a sim trap
royal lantern
like, take radiance as an example
you will get the shield all the time
and dont have the dps part up cus of it
nocturne gate
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3YStVEbng3DQdvxwCHnNSu
wheres the downside if i decide to play with sf^^ ?
vernal fern
Is it just me or assa feels absolutely terrible to play on tyrannical weeks ? Playing with 5% haste feels so bad on 5 minutes bosses and outlaw does more ST damage than us
rigid mango
It feels bad for sure, but I'm fine with it
Just more pooling
There's no real downside to subterfuge
It may be the better choice thanks to the amount of mastery you get through loyal
arctic walrus
how much crit do you have
tropic ocean
@bleak spoke with 3 ss exsang will always burst way harder than tb difference on short fights 2 minutes or less is insane
@vernal fern use overwhelming power pieces and iris minor to counter it if needed not sure which boss takes 5 minutes though in +21 tyran most bosses take 3-4min
strange merlin
How much Energy do i need to pool for TB ?
in a ST rotation (which means 1 rupture 1 garrote up)
tropic ocean
you want to fit at least 2 4cp envenom into tb window
strange merlin
arent we aiming for 3 in each ?
tropic ocean
"at least"
strange merlin
oh right ^^
tropic ocean
you won't be able to 3 evenom into every tb window
or at least not while making it a gain
royal lantern
3envenom will only happen if you are somewhat lucky with crits
arctic walrus
Fit 4
tropic ocean
its not related to crit to fit 3 envenom in tb
royal lantern
nah, you are thinking too small
4cp mut>envenom all the time during tb
its more related too your energy, and you gotta re-apply your bleeds short before it and stuff
its possible, but will not happen on every single tb
left moth
is it worth to let rupture run out for like 2 seconds to fit a 3rd envenom into tb instead of reapplaying it
rigid mango
Nope
left moth
aight
royal lantern
never let your bleeds drop
tropic ocean
refreshing rupture inside pandemic > another envenom into tb
strange merlin
but its ok to waste the 1 cb from TB itself when i have 5 cps from 2x mutilate?
cb=cp*
tropic ocean
y
lone junco
@rigid mango 👍
rigid mango
@lone junco 🤔
bleak spoke
@tropic ocean problem is i'm not sure it would if i only get 30ish seconds
like i could potentially? get 2 tbs
idk if it'd work out like htat
basically i'll be walking up with 5 cp and full energy out of stelath with everything up
robust river
M+ Gear. Stack Mastery/Crit yeah, drop haste. SS / EB most important, 3/2/anything ideal?
quasi pewter
best for overall dps is propably 3ss 2eb 1bbi
robust river
Ok thanks
quasi pewter
but ttk is obviously very valuable for prio
robust river
Tradewinds vs NP for M+? (My gear is poop so making do with what I can)
I'm guessing tradewinds?
sour wasp
you're guessing right
sour wasp
@nocturne gate another sf st brother 
nocturne gate
blightborne infusion
left moth
ah
nocturne gate
gorak tul mantle
left moth
i rolled that piece od shit 4 times and still dont have it
robust river
2 EB, 2 SS, 1 DD 1 Tradewinds is best I can do M+ wise for now I think till I spam ssome more.
nocturne gate
@sour wasp idk but since today it sims even with ma for me^^
sour wasp
do you have like 40% crit?
rough veldt
are bentics at 425 without a socket still good and upgrades?
arctic walrus
Benthic is not worth upgrading without a socket
zinc zealot
they will still be better then any other peice you can get. but if you will invest 200+ pearls you should try and get a socket
rough veldt
440gear better than 425 bentic without socket then?
arctic walrus
Sim it but yeah probably
rough veldt
ty
tawdry wagon
Is there a minimum amount of crit to aim for before stacking mastery in m+?
rigid mango
Depends a bit on your traits
tawdry wagon
Currently 2 eb/2 ss/1 ttk/1 norm.
tawdry wagon
I don't suppose using bote/spyglass allows you to run slightly less crit on gear?
robust river
With MA - Should I be using Env as my first combo spender if still in MA window or does Rupture still take priority? Pin says Rupture but I'm sure Infectious guy said Env?
icy ember
i'm pretty certain you dont want to use anything but env/mutilate, not rupture/garrote during the MA window
cuz they dont crit
so ideally you would use env(crit xD), mutilate (crit xD), envenom (crit xD)
cuz 2-3 seconds off of rupture isn't going to make up for the massive dps
but additionally, you wouldn't go into MA w/rupture falling off soon
dark crag
Rupter ticks while ma is up, if your rupture runs out in that 3 sec window you played horribly wrong
icy ember
so w/e, rearrange your dots
it TICKS for crit damage, but it doesn't apply w/crit
you cant rupture someone for 200k
ideally on your opener, you apply garrote/rupture first, then climb to 4-5cp, and THEN blow MA
so there isn't any possibility of it falling off
lunar yew
at 4 combo points with a garrote refresh coming soon, is it best to garrote to 5 and then spend, or spend at 4 and garrote to 1? for single target only
rigid mango
garrote before finishing, granted garrote is within pandemic
distant lava
detection
otherwise just out of gcd spells, I believe most are listed in a pin in #wow-general
scarlet sequoia
fok is fine too if youre at 3+ combo points
distant lava
I mean I would only do that if you'll cap while casting detection
strange python
uhh dont saw this pin. Thank you this helps a lot
wondering why racial dont count
balmy condor
I thought racials counted
distant lava
nah I'm pretty sure arcane torrent doesn't work
strange python
yea arcane save not working
digital shore
Just got Coral. Do I use it on AOE in M+ as well or solely with Vendetta single target? (I typed this 5 min ago but the sentence is red so Idk if it went through)
distant lava
!coral
prisma monolithBOT
The way to use coral in M+ is using it on your priority target,
and then whenever that target dies, reapply it to your next target.
Whenever your target dies it gives you the crit it would give from using it,
so consuming the stacks for crit mid pack is generally suboptimal.
digital shore
Okay so only on prio targets if I read it right?
royal lantern
i mean, it wont stack on targets that are alive for 20sec
short pivot
Is coral worth using in m+ tho?
rigid mango
On tyr weeks it's pretty good, yeah
digital shore
I just did a run and there were several times where I couldn't activate it when I pressed it. I'm kind of a WoW noob so I don't know why
short pivot
Bubble yeah
rigid mango
And it loses a lot from not getting a cast off with 2nd vend on fort weeks, since a lot of the time you shouldn't get a 2nd vend off on bosses
If you can use it optimally, you'd get 18~19s of high crit starting each pack
If you can't, you just use it on prio target as is
And it's still more than fine
short pivot
Better than dice for fort even?
rigid mango
I rate dice quite low, so yeah
It's all gucci aslong as you can get a 2nd vend off on bosses
which you might on higher keys
digital shore
Alright, I usually do. On fort I'll swap to my lustrous golden plumage then?
rigid mango
Possibly? Honestly both of the trinks need proper synced pulls to get full use
digital shore
Okay
acoustic patrol
can someone tell me what stats i need for raid with CFL
rigid mango
You don't "need" any stats
Sim yourself
They're all personal and they'll change too much with what you wear
acoustic patrol
i know, but all simms better with full crit
rigid mango
You mean you're simming best with crit?
acoustic patrol
y
sour wasp
so use it
rigid mango
So use it
sour wasp
how much haste?
rigid mango
If it's the best it's the best
acoustic patrol
18%
acoustic patrol
CFL, lucid nd iris
rigid mango
He shoots and he scores
robust river
Ashvane figth
Do I save Vendetta for first shield break
Then use it on CD from them? Or save it for breaks?
Feels wierd having it off cooldownf or so long
rigid mango
Depends what your raidleader wants
velvet elm
Hello! My guild got to Za'qul this week and we did like 25 pulls. Is there a good guide/video for when to pop cds (we use nothing on pull) for both being part of the delirium group and not
or if anyone has some general pointers. Currently I use my first font+vendetta on first erruption
and after that when it comes off cd. I'm not going into delirium
dark crag
Take delirium as starting point and count backwards
If you are not in delirium use cds when boss takes more dmg
velvet elm
If use vendetta only during eruption I'm not missing a cast? Or it's worth it to miss a cast (kinda doubtful)
rigid mango
What strat are you doing
dark crag
Dmg stop strat
velvet elm
We are saving everything on pull since we wait for 3rd tentacles before we push to 2nd phase
then we're pushing to p4 at around 3:30
strange python
3 best essences , which major raiding* and m+
rigid mango
Blood M + lucid conflict for m+
CLF M + lucid iris/conflict for raiding
strange python
Lucid major for mythic plus?
rancid bobcat
blood
rigid mango
Blood
Blood's only good granted you have rank 3 though
For raiding it's very simmable
rigid mango
Gl 
strange python
Thank you! @rigid mango
arctic walrus
Np
rigid mango
Smh raz immitator
arctic walrus
I can't be #1 but I can copy #1
plain moon
How do you use TB in your burst window while playing font+coral. I always just start to channel font as soon TB falls off and end up having to hold it off CD for a bit while I wait for coral to come up
scarlet sequoia
that is not the move
plain moon
Then?
scarlet sequoia
so what u wanna do is
font ~5 sec before pull and then whenever it comes off cd again
like 10-15 sec before vendetta is ideal
plain moon
Because I want to be able to vanish and use 2x env during MA, and I want to do that while TB is up
I won’t have TB up for when I coral+vendetta if I don’t hold for a few secs after font
scarlet sequoia
well just line it up ?
plain moon
You can’t
scarlet sequoia
doesnt matter if you hold tb for a few seconds to line it up for cds
ofc you can
what
scarlet sequoia
what
i think youre overthinking it a bit
you do not have to press tb literally on cd 100% of the time
unless you are a robot or something and can plan perfectly the whole fight thats not gonna happen
plain moon
Well that’s the plan and what you aim for
I do hold it when I need to, like during the Burst window when I said
arctic walrus
can you just link a log instead of all this talk
scarlet sequoia
any specific reason why youre holding vendetta for so long
i mean it looks correct but you hold vendetta for like a minute
plain moon
if I can ofc try to line up CLF with vendetta if i dont lose
hidden bay
U overcap on cps alot 
plain moon
I do with TB a lot, think on this fight i might of mutilated once extra and wasted. that's just a mistake but wouldnt say a lot
plain moon
so that means i muted once at 5 and once at 4, then also a wasted garrote
just 3 globals I small brained
scarlet sequoia
wait how do you check cps wasted
plain moon
My SS is from wowanalyzer
scarlet sequoia
oh ok
plain moon
So is anybody able to tell me if holding TB for 5secs while waiting for coral is the correct thing?
Unless theres a way to line it up that im just missing
sand whale
you held on to vendetta super long
cobalt pelican
a few seconds is fine yes
sand whale
if you're going by sivara not worth to line up with your 2nd CLF but I have no idea why you held on for as long as you did lol
plain moon
why is it not worth?
sand whale
your raid kill time makes it not worth
you can just coral remaining stacks + CLF at the end
plain moon
yeah the pot was def bad
cobalt pelican
and the answer to your question is realistically it's insignificant, the sim currently will tb vend as soon as it's up and use coral later
but koji said he was playing around with loosening it to just hold tb for coral+tb+vend with no loss (or gain)
unless those changes are in the sim now idk i've not played properly for a bit
but either way it doesn't matter, it's not a significant gain or loss to either vendtb then coral later or hold tb and vendcoraltb
plain moon
but yeah, if i knew the fight was going to die at that exact second I wouldnt of held CDs. Idea was i knew boss was gonna die b4 4mins. So I wanted to hold for 2nd CLF, ended up losing some secs of vendetta cause I thought would last slightly longer
sour wasp
can't do much about that tbh, i try to make a dodgy estimation of how fast the hp goes down
you just need to accommodate yourself to the group
plain moon
Yeah, on farm content where we have alts and were just meming around in voice. The safe thing is to just use on CD. but id rather gamble that the fight does last those extra few secs and i get a better parse. What else is farm for 😛
sand whale
I think you coulda done it
your last tb was delayed
if it was used on CD i.e. earlier font
prolly coulda fit the whole thing
plain moon
tbh Idk what im looking at in this pic
sand whale
yeah I just realised lmao
plain moon
is it saying my TB b4 I used font was held for a bit?
sand whale
vend/tb/font/coral/guardian
top to bottom
your burst window ended prematurely
all from the delayed font
which delayed everything back
so I guess in this scenario in regards to the question just time it better next time
plain moon
Well the font was delayed so I could line it up with CLF
sand whale
there's definitely enough overlap for you to have all buffs active if you fonted earlier is what I can see
I mean you're not playing against CD, the only CD for you is CLF and tb that you're worrying about at that point all your 2mins are ready to go
plain moon
Yeah in hindsight the best play is to not wait for clf and use font 15secs before it was off CD
Wouldn’t have full overlap uptime but would of had some
Can never really know the time it’s gonna die though when were talking about 5-10secs
robust river
Trinket suggestiosn or M+? Coral +?
robust river
Looking for what to farm. At present using a 405 Dice
Spyglass is siege of Boralus yeah?
placid mulch
In a non memey prog sense of things, if I don’t have VoP what is the best essence setup for za qul?
CLF major LD / PP minors?
arctic walrus
are you doing echos
woven summit
what third minor essence do you guys use for mythic +?
placid mulch
I’m doing echoes at the big add phases just to pump more envs
But focused 90% towards boss damage / st
arctic walrus
@placid mulch if you're doing delirium adds, I don't see why you don't have even rank 1 vision. If not, then just pick up normal c&s or pp
You can go for blood or clf as majors
ember rover
CLF hits other people in Delirium
Would not recommend unless you want people screaming at you 😄
arctic walrus
Well if he's doing delirium he needs blood anyway
royal lantern
i mean, run mechagon and get rank1 vision...? its not hard too get tbh
zinc zealot
what do the best rogues run for mythic+ talent/trait wise in mythic+
zinc zealot
i saw some rogues running 1 shrouded 2eb 2ttk and hidden blades
fervent jasper
The best m+ rogues usually run 3x Ace up your sleeve, 1x keep your wits about you, and some varying number of deadshots
If we're being perfectly honest
winter moss
this is #assassination so id recommend you go to #outlaw unless you are unable to read
devout thicket
should I be trying to clip ruptures into elabore planning? or does it not matter?
rigid mango
You should generally be trying to clip finishers at the end of ep
In the case of rupture it's just more ep, in the case of env it's a 10% inc to the envenom, so a bit more importany
devout thicket
envenoms I figured out, the longer EP part as well, but I was not sure how the snapshotting works for dots
have not played in quite a while
rigid mango
Sin only has snapshotting if it's from stealth