i'd play exsang with 3 SS
#assassination
slow mortar
@bleak spoke i quite enjoyed your screenshot of underrot and the totally not duo tank and healer names
also, make hidden blades an ability
bleak spoke
oh i didn't even notice haha
strange python
do I use 1 or 2 in the first row?
bleak spoke
was some random lfg
primal gazelle
my details name is "Outlaw Rogue" 
bleak spoke
LOLOLOL
I'm Exsanguimate when i play the talent, and TB Prod when i play that
or it's an accusation that some player in my raid is padding
when i play outlaw it's Somalian but that might be TOS
_>
tribal mason
can someone explain warcraft logs i see so many rogue running garrote traits but with toxic blade instead of Ex. what am i missing.
slow mortar
has anyone tried SoB on jadefire? i'm curious how that would pan out
bleak spoke
the way we play now is very funnel for high keys
and tox funnels harder than exsang usually
primal gazelle
you need at least 2.5 targets for sob > TC in AGI
bleak spoke
at least it funnels more often
TC is literally the new archive
more annoying in high keys though imo
not that the keys i do are really that high
more annoying in mid level+ keys*
where stuff after brings you low
round harbor
sin performs less great in lower keys
real bay
TC is 
dunno just don't like it that much
bleak spoke
believe me if i could have an EB instead i would
waxen estuary
How exactly do you handle HB? Do you spam FoK on packs or do you wait for a specific amount of stacks?
bleak spoke
if i could i'd play 2 SS 2 EB 2 TTK probably
you just pretend it's not there
except on ST when you get 20 you fok
don't stop FOKing in situations where you'd fok just beacuse you like watching the stacks climb
that's an issue
slow mortar
I have 2sob/2eb/2ss and that works out
2.5 targets for SoB > TC
but what about the kitties, does that come closer?
waxen estuary
kk, thanks!
bleak spoke
What you're gonna do, is as simple as you're gonna garrote one, garrote two, garrote three, rupture vendetta exsanguinate! yeah? then you're gonna fok fok, rupture again, you're gonna vanish, reapply garrote , especially on the target you don't have, and that's it, then you're gonna ct (crimson tempest). Look at my damage, right now, fucking garrote , it's fucking over dude. Oooh. How the fuck though LETS GO
If anyone asks what we do
tribal mason
when is Exsanguinate better over TB i see rogues with 3 SS traits still running Toxic blades.
spice surge
Extremly rarely atm
TB just scales better with stats & gear, so unless you're undergeared i wouldnt suggest exsang
Which in turn makes SS a pretty lackluster trait for ST
heavy skiff
In aoe exang can be better tho
strange python
is energy sniping still a thing?
spice surge
as in using rupture on a target that is about to die? Yes
strange python
dope
spice surge
Very much so
Since more and more of our damage (especially in aoe) comes from builders (fok) rather than finishers
bleak spoke
I think there’s probably a crit breakpoint where Tb feels better in dungeons than exsang
But I’m not there yet it seems
spice surge
Gonna depend on how you pull etc as well
bleak spoke
Without ttks and running 3SS not having exsang just feels shitty especially in pugs
strange python
rule of thumb atm for poison is 3x DD, 1x NP?
spice surge
There is no poison/bleed
bleak spoke
Like if I were with a group I trusted then the focus dmg pull to pull is probably much better with tb but atm I just want some real mongo dmg
strange python
oh?
spice surge
The only difference between those "builds" is 1 talent, either exsang or tb
And it doesnt change stat prio or how you play very significantly
spice surge
its not like legion where you swapped 4 talents and wanted different stats
strange python
ah i see okay, so i'll just have to sim it then
i mean, i'm still gearing so it shouldnt matter much atm
primal gazelle
anyone know aprox how long it takes for 1 garrote to generate your 45 energy back?
oblique smelt
Should i use the sapphire of brilliance as a prepot instead of normal potion if i get it?
wary ice
Isnt it based on haste?
Im p sure its 7/tick and the tick time is variable based on haste
fleet whale
i like to use the sapphire to save some money especially on fights were progressing on (early)
strange python
Its less "burst" agi, but more agi over 1min than normal potion
primal gazelle
hm ic
oblique smelt
heard someone say that using the sapphire doesnt allow you to use a second pot
this true?
fleet whale
no
you can use the second pot
it does have it's own five minute cd however, so you probably won't be able to use the sapphire every pull
oblique smelt
Gonna try it tonight on Mekkatwerk prog
dry wren
I see a lot of parses open with garrote while talented with MA, wouldn't it be better to open with a mutilate? Go Mut->Rup->Mut->Garrote
wary ice
Do they also have SS traits*
dry wren
Nope
wary ice
!openers
strange python
not sure if it was explained in the guide, but the goal during TB is still keeping env buff up 100%?
wary ice
rip
primal gazelle
i wonder that myself if using 3x DD, should you open with mut->rupture->mut->garrote since your DD can crit too
dry wren
Yeah
That's what I've been doing, it's pretty RNG with your pull tho
Can get cucked with 2 cp opener rupture
wary ice
Garrote
Mutilate
Rupture
Vendetta
Vanish
Toxic Blade
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Envenom
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Envenom
-- from the guide
dry wren
Yeah, I'm thinking the guide is wrong
wary ice
Im not the guy to tell you not to; but thats why you have garrote openers
My guess is the energy regen is better than possible crit damage from dd
fleet whale
opening with garrote is more reliable
wary ice
Or rather, allows for more damage than a crit'd DD
primal gazelle
you would lose... 7-14 energy tops opening with Mut instead but ehhh
golden relic
how much crit u got in m+ gear @spice surge
sturdy python
Can always edit the apl and see
feral shuttle
Hi guys - quick question about Jadefire Mythic - we're starting progression on it tonight. Do you guys keep dots on both the monk or the mage or just channel ST DPS into the monk? Thanks.
sturdy python
Fairly certain tons of different openers were tested already
primal gazelle
but were these openers tested specific combos like 3 DD?
dry wren
With how easy it is to stack DD and Nothing Personal, seems like 3 ticks of garrote energy aren't worth it over 50% crit on 2 mutilates.
wary ice
Yeah but
golden relic
ye but if the muti doesnt crit
fleet whale
@primal gazelle maybe it will allow you to get a 100k+ opener 😄
wary ice
You're using vendetta -> vanish immediately
golden relic
whats more reliable
wary ice
So you're probably opening with bleeds to get them rolling for the energy regen during Vendetta TB
primal gazelle
if muti doesnt crit then u wipe the raid and try again 
wary ice
ie; the damage gained in your burst window from having energy regen from bleeds / not having to apply them late outweighs the damage gained from +1 possible crit from mute
sturdy python
I have no clue. That’s why I’m saying if you feel that way then change the opener apl and see. I’m sure tc research has instructions on it
golden relic
u want the energy to have regained aswell for the TB window
2 envenoms in TB window or 3 , monkaHMM
wary ice
Yeah like you burn all of your cooldowns immediately after the 3 globals from opener
dry wren
You're swimming in energy during the opner tho
golden relic
saame, just got a gigavolt, but its 385, but thinking of using it + deadeye
feels like the crit would be worth
but idk
visual quartz
swimming in energy yes, but you want that abundance of energy during vend TB windows, not the opener
you energy starve yourself right before your big burst window, that feels awful
strange python
so during that "vend+TB" window, is your main goal pooling energy before that to get off 2-3 envs?
silk shore
hey all 😃 i just want to hear some opinions. I dinged 120 recently and trying to decide what spec to play? I really love sin, but i heard that outlaw is better
pastel vault
For raid this tier sin is better :)
strange python
Sin is king.
pastel vault
Outlaw for aoe stuff
I think Asa can be good in m+ though I've been pulling 30-33k dps overall and I only have 1 EB trait
silk shore
i consider playing mostly m+ only 😃
got 1200 rio on warrior tank this season, and will try to push a bit with rogue
sturdy python
Outlaw and sin are both good. Will see good results in some dungeons as sub but it will take more work.
strange python
are there any decent video guides on sin?
small hollow
is plumage actually better than galecaller now on ST ?
just as i finally got it from shrine...
hollow stone
Gcb is still better afaik with 100% uptime. That "with 100% uptime" is the important part. Plumage or the pvp medallion are likely going to be better in most situations unless youre perfect with your gcb
strange python
I did a random 7 shrine last night with irl friends and got 410 gale lmao
jesus
i was lucky and got 400 dice then ivus trink b2b
thin kernel
Do people stack EB for m+?
modest badge
feel lilke outlaw would be better on tyranical week since u cant burst down bosses so fast
pastel vault
1 EB trait is doing about 4-5% of my overall alone, without counting the fan increase
3 would be pretty nuts
primal gazelle
EB does 20-25% of mine lol
primal gazelle
you should also try to tell your DK tank to use mass grip as often as possible, because its a huge dps increase due to small radius of EB procs
some dks only save it for emergencies
lost sentinel
yeah, that's true, it's at least 8 yrds so it's not that bad
I think it's 8, might be 5
primal gazelle
its 8, but if mobs are on opposite sides from you, its not gonna hit
happens often in reaping due to casters
he took a photo with his phone im guessing
LOL
lost sentinel
if it bothers your eyes don't look 🤷 😛
opal minnow
Shift+winkey+s is your friend
lost sentinel
you think I don't know how to take a screenshot? lol
cerulean walrus
pepega
cerulean walrus
are phone pictures of your dps meters like the new "Unregistered Hypercam"
lost sentinel
since I was sending it to a friend over my phone it was faster, I just reused it
I remember when we were using the channel to talk about sin rogue, not lame memes
hollow stone
Its mid tier. No more burning questions. Long live the meme (dont let richard see 😬)
strange python
any decent sin guides out? trying to wrap my head around the spec
sturdy python
Look above, also wowhead
strange python
i'm scouting all 3 at the moment
sturdy python
Or pins if you’re mobile
bronze belfry
Maintain your bleeds dump excess into envenom profit?
cobalt gyro
i feel like i must be doing something wrong then because EB isn't doing 20% of mine
i only have 2 stacked, tho
primal gazelle
are you using CT?
strange python
like, when would you pick MA over Sub, what's your goal during TB/Vend ect
cobalt gyro
nope, HB
primal gazelle
you prob need the 3rd stack for 20-25% of your overall
the 3rd is also the strongest too
sturdy python
It’s in the guides. If you have an SS trait you always take subt. Otherwise you can use MA for st
primal gazelle
rolling for the helm tomorrow, pls lord gimme that 3 eb 3 ss combo
cobalt gyro
I was trying to get an all leather run for shrine to get the helm from there
i figure even 370 ss eb is better than 400 with only 1
primal gazelle
im using a 400 EB/SOB helm, i think its better than a 375 SS/Eb helm
strange python
"Shrouded Suffocation: These are still the go to traits for Exsanguinate build as it greatly improves Garrote damage." which is what confused me since i see people running SS with TB build
primal gazelle
the guide hasnt really been updated for the new meta
cobalt gyro
only 400 helm with "good" traits for m+ that i have atm is the crown from opulence
so ttk or scent + ss
went with ttk for boss dmg
primal gazelle
you can cap pvp conquest for the 385 helm with EB/sob
cobalt gyro
that seems like a long grind cause i didn't do any
strange python
@primal gazelle any where i can find info on said meta?
just trying to find a baseline atm
primal gazelle
sim yourself tbh
sturdy python
That isn’t an incorrect statement. It doesn’t say you can’t use tb with ss
strange python
i'm not saying it's incorrect, i'm just saying it confused me
sturdy python
Have you checked wowhead guide
strange python
yes i'm on it currently
lone junco
SS needs subterfuge. Tb goes well with dd. You can run dd and SS. Exang vs tb is legit a sim thing.
Exang is really limp imo compared to legion bota. But it is what it is.
strange python
sweet ty for that little bit of info, that isn't mentioned in those guides at all
unless i'm missing it somewhere
cobalt gyro
ya if you're running SS traits without subt you're basically not running a trait at all
lone junco
SS subterfuge tb is good. Ma tb dd is probably better.
primal gazelle
those guides arent very updated to consider new meta
cobalt gyro
having access to both sets of traits is good tho since you get huge value out of SS with multiple targets
lone junco
I wouldn't know. Cause we had two healers retire so I'm on hpal. R I p.
primal gazelle
like the MA DD thing or how to use EB traits
strange python
what is the new meta?
primal gazelle
current meta* sry
lone junco
Depends.
strange python
i'm just trying to consider all options
sturdy python
All of this is in the wowhead guide
It is updated very well by Mystler
Once you learn and read it you have to practice and sim your gear, azerite and talent options
flint jetty
It's probably like the azerite info page from the right side of the page with all the sections
golden relic
https://gyazo.com/72f6cd694aea48804bdce498b4d68b8a just an envenom crit on mekka
flint jetty
I had up to a 91k DD crit last night on opulence lmao.
autumn stag
How viable is sub at this state?
flint jetty
Subterfuge or subtlety?
sturdy python
It’s playable, just lacking compared to the other two specs except in pure st and specific dungeons
autumn stag
st?
hallow coyote
Sub thread isn't dead, just not too many people playing it
umbral meadow
I did my rotation on a training dummy and nothing personal was my #1 damage dealer
I have 2 traits
does that sound right?
I run toxic blade and master assassin
hallow coyote
Can be depending on how long you did your rotation
umbral meadow
like a minute
hallow coyote
Sounds about right, it's a huge nature damage dot but it only lasts for 20 seconds
umbral meadow
should I vanish envenom or vanish toxic blade?
lost sentinel
try checking the guide
flint jetty
I see a lot of people doin
Vendetta>TB>vanish>env
But guide/sim says
Vendetta/vanish>TB>env
umbral meadow
i actually have 3 nothing personal
flint jetty
This is assuming you have at least 3 CP when popping vendetta.
umbral meadow
shouldn't I toxic blade before vendetta so I don't miss out on nothing personal ticks?
because the nothing personal dot is nature
flint jetty
I wouldn't be concerned about it personally. You end up missing something DD chances and Env dmg potentially. But I guess I. The end it comes down to what works for you
real bay
TB wont last the whole duration anyways, as long as you get the full amount during vendetta
umbral meadow
k
flint jetty
Yeah so with what erttu said you'd actually lose dmg casting the before vendetta
umbral meadow
does the energy regen stack?
real bay
when you vendetta you want TB to come ready in the next 10s or so
flint jetty
Tb* fuckin auto correct
No it doesnt
Just the dmgs
Same with SS CP and the increased env duration from crits with TtK
full pagoda
Guys, how exactly do you calculate stat weight for M+?
umbral meadow
dungeon slice
golden relic
well a good estimate would to sim 6 targets 40 seconds, if im not wrong
dungeon slice is abit yikes when it comes to stats im pretty sure
flint jetty
I think dungeon slice tends to skew a bit more st doesn't it? Personally i just follow a generic crit>mast>haste for m+ just because trying to accurately sim stat weight for m+ is yikes af
real bay
same
primal gazelle
yum those juicy crits
past pivot
does anyone have a link to what my opener looks like without subterfuge? do i just garrote>Muti>vanish>rupture>vedetta>normal stuff? i dont feel like im going to get the most out of masster assassin that way. the icyveins opener assumes you use subterfuge.
sturdy python
Check wowhead or rh guides
past pivot
alright thanks!
lone junco
Vanish rupture ma ? Big yikes.
past pivot
i thought you gotta get the nightstalker bonus with it.
wait not nightstalker whats it called
oh wait I was confused nvm
for some reason i thought vanish always empowered you next attack/bleed. 
well i guess thats why im asking question lul
hollow stone
With ns it does. But nobody runs ns. So at least youre half right :p
versed mica
I still don’t understand why I sim higher in ma than sub
I always feel like I burst higher using sub
hollow stone
Subt is consistent. MA isnt (probability is in your favor but still). Could also be that youre more comfortable w the ss subt opener. MA is definitely higher sim for st given the proper traits
versed mica
Well, I feel like I do the MA opener better honestly
I think I just have garbage luck
hollow stone
We have two rogues in our group. Working on mekka prog. He runs subt, i run MA. On a good opener when my crits actually come in, i crush his opener. But occasionally, when the rng gods curse me, he will beat my opener. Our gear is very similar
So depends what youre after. And most people want the potentially higher burst even if theres a few pulls where it bites you in the ass
And at the end of the day, youre looking at probably about a 2% diff between the two builds (which is a lot) but is often a lot lower than the dps we lose due to human error. Tldr: play the one youre better at executing unless you really really need to go as much dps as possible due to an enrage timer (soft or hard)
novel flame
Could anyone help me with some hints or guidance on some of my logs? I honestly don't know what I could do to perform better.
It can be in DM 😃
hollow stone
Its best if you just link em here. And ask the same question. People love to tell you what youre doing incorrectly :p
novel flame
well, lol. I didnt want to bother everyone with this. but 😃
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6AwXfJp2vYxFby3B#translate=true
Roast away ;P
Ive been using the wowanalyzer to help me out with some of it
but most of the time all boxes are checked, and the performance is green (90%+) etc
yeap
red plaza
hahah thats what i was about to post
novel flame
Ok. good
red plaza
analyze > timelines > casts
novel flame
the opener have that issue. but I am not sure if this is what drags me down so much.
I know this may sound like a stupid question but should I be casting mut asap or should I wait and pool energy?
I just feel like I am doing all wrong lol.
Ok. Thanks a lot!
cobalt gyro
Is there a reason my shadowstep just doesn't work on 1st boss of siege
prime bison
it’s broken yeah
got the same issue like 5 times last week
but what about planning windows, should i keep some energy for guaranteed 2 mutilates with the buff?
I’ve talked with rogue’s masters and they said that the main thing is not to overlap planning duration while performing the basic rotation
hollow stone
The key for sin rogue (outside of just executing your rotation) is to remember that you dont waste potential dps unless: you are slow to a tb/cd window, your bleed(s) fall off, you over cap energy, or you overcap CPs
In other words, "pooling" as long as you dont cap is perfectly fine
prime bison
That’s what I want to hear, thank you!
buoyant coyote
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/myXYADMPnCTdcHpB#type=damage-done&boss=2271&difficulty=5&wipes=1&cutoff=2 tips on what to improve when it comes to TB and uptime ,was really sloopy today.. :/
sacred venture
Hi Guys, I have a trinket-related question.
I got 2 on use trinkets, a galecallers 400 and a golden plumage 385. do 2x on use trinkets make sense? or am I better off with galecallers + the leaf from ivus (400)?
Its just that 2x on use does not feel right...
hollow stone
Two on use i generally bad, in ideal gear, you would not run two on use. Given that youre gearing up, best to sim to confirm. Chances are, gcb and leaf will end up simming highest
sacred venture
assuming the 2 on use sim highest - woudl you pair your vendetta with gcb or plumage. plumage sounds more promising since it lasts for the whole 20 sek.
rustic ether
plumage for vendetta
hollow stone
I would check the apl (html report) for the sim and see what it does. Again, my gut says the same as yours and to pair plumage w vend and gcb elsewhere. Maybe with 2nd tb or somethin
edgy ginkgo
hey guys... is double dose only simming that good, or is it actual REALLY good?
sturdy python
It’s good
hollow stone
Its actually that good (for st)
rustic ether
its fantastic
edgy ginkgo
better than 3 times SS?
hollow stone
Yes
rustic ether
but its pur and simple ST 0 aoe purposes
buoyant coyote
sacred venture
btw, nothing personal is simming very high atm on bloodmallet, even stacked nothign personals.
this does not feel right. I mean, the energy regen does not stack, only the dot does. and the dot does not sound huge.
hollow stone
Yup. Np is a top tier st trait
rustic ether
Np wasnt top tier because the apl wasnt taking your haste into a factor
hollow stone
Its pretty yuge, yea
rustic ether
in a perfect world 3DD 3NP would be bis
however a second and third NP are SLIGHTLY below 2 and 3 DD
spice surge
3DD, 3NP and 3 overwhelming power yes
hollow stone
(With op as your third trait)
sacred venture
lets say for jadefire masters I would be better off with SS, TC and maybe a DD.
hollow stone
Eleem ❤️
rustic ether
id run SS in jade yeah
sacred venture
whats your opinion on TC then?
hollow stone
Tc also a very strong st trait. Better for trash too :p
hollow stone
/equip m+ gear and eb to victory
sacred venture
do you guys run TB all the time, even with SS?
edgy ginkgo
i do, yes.. i think its more comfortable
sacred venture
I usually pla exa in m+, but not in raids
hollow stone
I do. Other than m+ when i no longer have any dd or np (which both synergize with tb)
And even then, if ttk build for m+, hell yeah tb
sacred venture
perfect, many thanks.
a lot of input for the short amount of time
I am still super happy about my gcb, it dropped in the 3rd sots run today
i will never go there again
rustic ether
rip to the people who still use GCB as their tirnket
umbral meadow
I just did 21k single target
edgy ginkgo
shouldnt it be used?
rustic ether
i just believe that plumage is better in all situations
edgy ginkgo
Plumage? sorry i'm german.. which boss does it drop?
rustic ether
oh sorry! illustrious golden plumage, form kings rest
strange python
so question, my goal during TB is to keep 100% uptime on env buff? or is it fit as many envs as i can
edgy ginkgo
ah kk
rustic ether
@strange python your goal is to fit as many env as possible
edgy ginkgo
yeah sure, you can combine it perfectly with vendetta.. but for that you have to get it 😄
strange python
ah okay sweet, thought it was just uptime thanks!
rustic ether
you can try to time your last envenom in the end of the TB
targetting it isnt easy though
strange python
and my assumption behind pooling energy is to try and stack elab planning yes?
just wanna make sure i'm playing properly
rustic ether
not rly?
its ust to make sure you get good envenoms inside the TB
if you pop TB at low energy than youre only going to get one env 2 if youre lucky
rustic ether
your main goal is to get at least 2 envenoms inside a window
if you can get three thats even better but rare
thats mostly in your vendetta TB windows
@hollow stone btw whats ttk?
ice seen it sometimes and dont understand lol
rustic ether
oh didnt know anyone used that trait for m+
civic palm
If you end up with no enough targets that spamming CT is a DPS increase you're gonna have to finish with something > _>
rustic ether
i guess
vestal wren
you never spamm ct
civic palm
Yeah I suppose with EB you just spam FoK > _>"
vestal wren
reguardless of azerite, you never spamm ct
rustic ether
yeah ct isnt worth spamming, most of the dmg is from the dot
ruby idol
There was a spreadsheet posted here a couple weeks ago that showed like expected combo points per mut/fok cast based on crit% and targets
prisma monolithBOT
There is no specific week or affix that makes one or the other more viable.
CT vs PB is mainly down to your group, the dungeon itself and your pull sizes, with PB naturally having an edge in boss fights.
It's mainly the combination of affixes and dungeons that favour one or the other. High Tyr KR/Temple favour PB in general, due to low pulls and harder bosses.
In terms of Exsang vs TB; Exsang wins since it works well with SS traits and it's only 1 global on your priority target for some burst damage and extra energy.
TB usually locks you to that target to gain the most out of it.
rustic ether
Ct is actually starting to seem unfavorable for some of the higher rogues
vestal wren
ct is probably the most missused spell
civic palm
Very easily.
vestal wren
# Crimson Tempest only on multiple targets at 4+ CP when running out in 2s (up to 4 targets) or 3s (5+ targets)
civic palm
Could be some boomkin stuff that is misused more but CT is pretty much up there.
spice sorrel
About on par with starfall
civic palm
I wanna say the difference between the somehow exceptional Boomies is worse than it is for Rogues.
rustic ether
Ct just does the same amount of dmg as a single FoK (with EB) with the same energy cost
sturdy python
Or come to outlaw and be a Jedi
civic palm
or just don't play Rogue, and be GalaxyBrian.
rustic ether
listen @sturdy python if i wanted to feel the highs and lows of outlaw id honestly just go be a heroin addict no thanks
sturdy python
Just one more roll man, that’s all I need
rustic ether
honestly if they somehow made RtB have Bad luck protectionn (which would make it just boring or stupid) id play outlaw 100%
primal gazelle
my brain is too small for rtb gameplay
why complicate things when u can run 3 EB and press 1 button for 100k dps
round harbor
Why press any buttons when u can take a nap and chill
mighty elm
Does it say anywhere in the pins how to play with master assassin on fights like Grong or rastakhan with with adds that are up for a short period of time?
Felt really straight forward with subterfuge and SS. I’ve never played without that either
hollow stone
I dont think so, but I'll save you a lot of time: just kill the prio target with regular st rotation
use your judgement for putting garr/rupt on the adds for grong since they die so fast
mighty elm
Is dotting other targets worth it with vanish?
mighty elm
I see, thought , vanish mutilate garrote garrote would be the way to go
mighty elm
Oh wait I’m m lost
hollow stone
and even if you could, it would not be good
hollow stone
usually, you have bleeds up, you're in your vend/tb window, you have 5cp, then you vanish -> env, m, env
you'll get args for both sides, I think MA is easier, yeah
mighty elm
But u don’t save TB for vanish right ? Didn’t see APL do that
hollow stone
no, you save vanish for TB 😛
mighty elm
Rly , it didn’t do that either
hollow stone
but like, not for TB itself, but for your env m env in the tb window
mighty elm
Oh u tb before vanish?
hollow stone
check the MA opener on RH (in the pins) and just apply that logic to your 2m "re-opener" as well
yeah, although I think TB as your first gcd in MA is nearly as good to the point where it doesnt REALLY matter
mighty elm
The apl hs been lying to me 
hollow stone
open: g, m, r, m, vend, tb, van/env, m, env/m (env if 4cp, m if 3 or less)
and then just do your regular rotation
mighty elm
What u did looks a lot better than , tb,m,env. Even though apl does it like that
mighty elm
Ty
civic palm
TB after Vanish is supposedly more consistent > _>
and with the crit being as it is, that's important.
civic palm
arrr...
lone junco
yo ho ho
hollow stone
I guess it depends on that m before tb and vend. If its a 4cp'er then i would imagine vend tb van env m env is better but if it's a 2 or 3'er then i could see vend van tb env m being better. Yee
primal gazelle
oh they finally fixed raiderio to show current season score and last season's separately
took them long enough
on the addon
civic palm
Yeah
heavy trail
I do m r m g ven env tb mut4+ van env m env :D
civic palm
o _o 💦
lone junco
@heavy trail the mut crits sound nice. but no env means the first 2 mut will prob be dry on DD. but the chance is there at least.
I wonder if that will burn trinket procs or wep buff procs on open that fall off prior to the vanish. because it is so far out.
dark crag
Who's working on the assa apl?
dark crag
He probably tested all kind of openers
lone junco
things change as we get DD / lose SS. but i really doubt cold M R MG is a good idea.
opener tweaks tend to be small in a 5min boss fight
civic palm
Also the chance that it nets anything more than a pittance of DPS is low.
Opener is mostly for the setup at this point.
dark crag
It's for ma. Same like tb after or before vanish. Consistency vs potential
In the end it doesn't matter
civic palm
You miss the first 2 ticks of Garrote but doubt it matters.
dark crag
Was it 7 per tick?
icy ember
w/MA i do this: G M R Ven TB M til +4 Vanish E M E
but the guide no longer says to do that
civic palm
Seems fine.
icy ember
does it tho, im not sure 
civic palm
It's fine.
It even buffs the 1-2 DD'd Mutilates you might have going into Vanish, which isn't bad.
and so long the TB has 2-3 Envenoms in it, all good.
icy ember
fair enough, then i wont break my habit of an opener for the new guide
primal gazelle
guys i jsut got my 9th socket 😮
civic palm
You wanna donate some of those fucking sockets jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
icy ember
nice i have 6 
primal gazelle
2069 crit rating unbuffed yay
cobalt gyro
damn
round harbor
8 sockets, 1820 here
Gonna be tough to get crit on my main hand though since it's 415
silver turret
sin is pretty low on the dps scale at low levels isnt it lol
thorny agate
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
grave elk
how do i make a macro to pair trinket activate with vendetta? idk what to type
primal gazelle
#showtooltip Vendetta
/cast Vendetta
/use 13
grave elk
yep i actually got it thank you!
cosmic oracle
Or use trinket name
primal gazelle
/use 13 is more useful so you dont have to keep changing the macro everytime you use a new trinket
cosmic oracle
Debatable, if you gear swap and put the trinket in the wrong slot your macro is effectively useless
lone junco
@silver turret low lvls like 30 or low ilvl like 350?
civic palm
O _O
lone junco
@primal gazelle ive had a /use 13 and /use 14 keybind in the same spot on all toons for like 10 yrs. even the ones that dont keypress. but the /use is typ on top. 👌
gilded trellis
Do off hands weapon damage matter for sin or are they stat sticks?
bleak spoke
stat stick oh weapon dmg is like nothing
gilded trellis
Ty
warm harbor
@desert vault the conclave chest has a SS and EB so its bis for m+ sin, definitely need to get that
desert vault
I know, I chase it constantly and still nothing
i can't raid much right now, so might buy a head tomorrow and hope for a good aoe set
silver turret
@lone junco low levels like 30
lament hedge
So I'm at the target dummy and I have 1 NP, but when I fight the dummy the poison isn't applied when I use vendetta. Any idea why?
grave elk
i feel so damn energy starved after the opener. it feels really bad
lone junco
@silver turret can level as Sub. its pretty easy. There is like 3 buttons.
grave elk
idk how ppl get 3 env inside of TB window without at some point having garrote and ruptures renewals getting in the way
silver turret
@lone junco im aware its easy to level, I was just saying damage sucks at low levels it feel slike
silver turret
Low levels^
grave elk
for practicing rotation is raiders training dummy best one to work on? cuz i legit try to cast envenoms or garrotes and they miss or something so practicing my timing kinda gets screwed over by this
iron zinc
are you hitting it from behind
grave elk
no im using the dummy in rogue hideout in dalaran cuz in boralus i seem to get a delay
another location good?
primal gazelle
hello 10 sockets now???
iron zinc
as long as its like level 121 or 122 or whatever you should be fine, i know if you hit it in the front you will get misses and parries vs from behind everything should hit
grave elk
i just see ??
that mean 121 or 122?
Also while working on my rotation to try and get 3 env every TB cycle. i swear my rupture is nearly always falling off in that same time and garrote almost always coming off as well. awkward timings
rose perch
don't overthink getting envenoms into your TBs - you almost always lose more dps if you refresh dots before pandemic or hold TB to facilitate it
grave elk
@rose perch since TB on cd is recommended. do u ever use tb at 5 cp ? to get envenom in and not delay the tb
rose perch
yeah! i recently started doing that after seeing method rogues doing it and i think it's good
i basically never press a button other than TB if TB is off CD
grave elk
yeah im starting to think sometimes ill be able to fit 3 env inside of tb but i cant do it every time cuz my ruptures or garrotes might fall off
lone junco
@primal gazelle 42 flat is bonkers.
grave elk
@rose perch do you reapply rup or garrote during tb? cuz i swear at some point one or the other will be delayed a reapply cuz of tb window
rose perch
yeah just reapply dots in the TB
frail quiver
Did kings rest 14 times in last 2 days, no trinket 
dapper moat
And here i am sab because my plumage did not proc..
balmy condor
During regular rotation we prioritize envenom uptime yeah? Someone in guild is telling me to try to aim for elaborate uptime but I’m not buying it
Like he’s chopping the envenom buff to reapply elaborate
That can’t be right
flint jetty
I think maximizing EB is good and all, but with mult DD traits you wanna try n geet as many muts into env debuff as you can right?
strange python
i'm fitting 3x env inside of TB window now every time
feelsgood
these 4 point muts are my friend tonight
flint jetty
Jesus that crit tho. I know it's a m+ set but still. In my st raid set ive got 16.24% crit unbuffed and I don't really like how it feels most of the time. I'd rather have 20-22% at least lol.
but with 3x DD 1 Blight 1 SoB and 1 NP my stat weights are haste 3.20 > Mast 3.03 > Crit at 3.01
Is crit not as much of a concern for seal fate when you're going for fat DD procs thru muti?
cloud iris
@flint jetty blightborn prolly devalues crit
flint jetty
Yeah it does a bit, but even when I swap blightborne for NP my crit weight is still quite low comparatively. Although I think blightborne sims better than NP just because i'm so low on crit lol
strange python
OOF galecaller's boon
steep obsidian
fk that trink
strange python
it looks fun if i can stand still for a few
cloud iris
3xSS + 2xEB + SOB vs 2xSS + 2xSOB + TTK +EB
For like a tyranical week what setup would u use
round harbor
33ss and 3eb
grizzled jay
Didn't realize there were other trinkets other than plumage and dice
median tiger
gale is good
solid nova
quick ice
pretty sure over 10000 iterations, you get a true average
solid nova
You realise what iterations means on your sim right
It takes the average over X amount of iterations so when you say "sometimes its good and sometimes its bad", your sim is taking that into account.
So 
is accurate.
Because fight length effects simulations?
CD usage, timers etc
vast forum
We have a new genius in the discord, here to teach us all how sims work
solid nova
What
grizzled jay
I got 400 plumage dice and dead eye and dead eye always always sims like 0.5% lower, consistently. Never better
vast forum
Yes, that's exactly it
solid nova
Well you're claiming people arent intelligent enough to understand sims
When you're not understanding sims in the first place
vast forum
Are you trying to say you did 3 sims with exact same gear, fight length, fight style and you got 2 completely different results
Or rather 3 different results
solid nova
Thats called averages
thorn tartan
Sim = 100000 fights - > should be good
solid nova
More iterations - more data - more averages - more accurate
strange python
lol you are already getting quite accurate averages.
thorn tartan
You dont sim just one fight
grizzled jay
That seems too much
strange python
he's probably exaggerating
solid nova
So you used different gear sets
thorn tartan
Proof
grizzled jay
Link raid bots
bronze kelp
so different gear sets, if you compare 3 trinkets
solid nova
^
full pagoda
Something spicy is going on 🍿
grizzled jay
Hahahaah
solid nova
No it doesnt
Your sim variance isnt due to "trinket rng" its because you're comparing entirely different gear setups
balmy condor
Idk you tell us
grizzled jay
Just link a raidbots and stop arguing 👌
thorn tartan
strange python
oh i thought i was in outlaw chat
balmy condor
Okay
Here
Pro strat
Take your 3 results
Average them by hand
Use one of the trinkets
full pagoda
Why is it so hard to link, so people can see wut you're doing?
thorn tartan
Post em 
solid nova
We'll find out when we finally see them
balmy condor
You’ll mess up enough as a human that the 250 you’re clinging to isn’t wurf to begin with most likely anyway
Eggs dee
strange python
im intrigued, but we probably wont see them 😦
grizzled jay
This dude is teasing us hard
vast forum
Wtb sim report links
grizzled jay
I want those sexy sims
balmy condor
Pick one and live your life mr blue man
solid nova
Well i think if you're going to pass on help deeming people too unintelligent to understand sims you should back it up with your own clear knowledge 
6 mins?
Ye
So you're running a 6 min sim
against a 5min sim
And wondering why theres a difference?
🤔
strange python
lel
thorn tartan
balmy condor
Crimson tempest patchwork btw
full pagoda
😂 
solid nova
You dont CT on ST
grizzled jay
Lol
solid nova
Maybe next time you'll accept the help given instead of writing people off as too unintelligent 😉
strange python
i think that dude is just trolling us
bronze kelp
or just instant post your sim to get it checked 😉
strange python
i gotta say i did not expect that
balmy condor
Y i k e
grizzled jay
Big yikers my dude
solid nova
!warn @earnest pilot Thats not the language you use around here to talk to others
Bye
grizzled jay
Rofl
strange python
richard was right all along, who woulda thunk 
grizzled jay
This dude is killing me at work
solid nova
Who'd a thunk it
thorn tartan
@grizzled jay same 😁
strange python
trying to keep a straight face at work sure is tough
solid nova
If only someone had told you prior to linking the sims that fight length effect results
vast forum
Xd
balmy condor
Or that sinning talents that actually are used by the sim in single target altered the dps gain of stat stick trinkets like spyglass
solid nova
Too unintelligent sorry
balmy condor
But let’s pretend this crimson tempest thing is fine
strange python
lol cody
balmy condor
THEN WHY SIM IT
solid nova
Then why use it in a sim
vast forum
You called the whole server unintelligent while fucking up the basics of the sim and complaining about people making fun of u
balmy condor
W h o l l y
C a n o l y
solid nova
Idk i think if you're going to call people out for not understanding sims
grizzled jay
Fucking dead
solid nova
You should know something yourself
vast forum
And now you imply only nerds know how to sim looool
strange python
i love this
this is the best thing that has happened this morning
What stats do you aim for and what traits do you have. This is a question for high end M+. 2k+ only
solid nova
?
strange python
what is this 😄
balmy condor
Blue parse heroic?
solid nova
What am i looking at
strange python
i cant take this anymore :D:D
thorn tartan
Heroic logs
solid nova
Bad troll or 🤔
strange python
must be nice to pad on adds with CT
balmy condor
“Guys I’m slightly above average on a boss that’s farmed by thousands of builds”
Holy crap I need to go to bed
grizzled jay
@strange python crit mastery. Emphasis on crit
vast forum
Today was great
grizzled jay
Especially with EB
grizzled jay
Slow day here so not much going on
full pagoda
Slow day here as well
grizzled jay
Bless Cody for the entertainment
full pagoda
Ty, dear Cody for making out day
strange python
But at what levels @grizzled jay. I have the following
2xSS
2xEB
2xTTK
31% Crit
10% Haste
42% Mastery
full pagoda
grizzled jay
Yes he does
I aim to get 40% with 6 stacks of VIGOR
But you can get more
That's ALL I can muster with my gear
EB and TTK means crit is fucking as boss as ever
strange python
Ye I might have gone overboard with the mastery. Will spec more into crit. And sorry, I won't sim for m+. Thanks foe the answer @grizzled jay
bronze kelp
still no spyglass dropped for me in s2 :/
strange python
I guess I have to farm Mekka then! I have 415 Dice and 405 socket Spyglass
grizzled jay
Man those are nice
grizzled jay
Yeah meka is like a perma crit stat stick like legion
strange python
16x +10 or +11
Well hopefully we kill fella Mythic next week. But will have to do a run in HC aswell I guess
bronze kelp
already farmed FH for dice, cause its an overall good trinket for all specs, but had no luck on sob so far ./
grizzled jay
Yeah hc is fine to have
grizzled jay
Gale is shit
median tiger
whoa now bro
grizzled jay
Well ure in luck cause this week and next are piss easy to farm M+
acoustic sleet
what do you guys think for the yulon trink?
grizzled jay
It's shit
grizzled jay
Meh
strange python
id rather use plume or spyglass instead of yulon trinket
patent topaz
full night of wipes on opulence 😂 🔫
cutting edge
thinking about quitting the game
golden relic
Where would michael jordan be if he quit the game when it got hard for him HMMMMM
acoustic sleet
playing baseball
median tiger
i dont even have a choice bro
acoustic sleet
probably he would switch games i believe
quick ice
I mean he did?
acoustic sleet
he was planning
quick ice
got banned, swapped games?
strange python
So I guess I want Crit at higher because of the increased proc and CPs from EB and the really insane crits with 2xTTK? I offer up Mastery = lower Garrote dmg but higher overall with the increased dmg from FoK and CPs into Envenoms? @grizzled jay
bronze kelp
more crit for more EB procs = higher aoe dmg
and crit is not the worst stat for bosses as well
what haste % do you guys run on m+ on fort and tyr?
strange python
i try to keep them both around 20-25%
bronze kelp
haste? oO?
grizzled jay
Crit is just better since you're in those aoe situations so much in M+ and it's especially good cause of EB TTK
You get lots more. Combo points also
Which is insane
bronze kelp
im running 3 EB 2 SS 1 TTK atm
bronze kelp
so youre adding trash intentionally as assa now on bossfights ?
devout jolt
I'm running 3 SS, 1 SoB, 1 EB and 1 NP
grizzled jay
Don't think so fahwi no
bronze kelp
okay
grizzled jay
This ain't old sub just yet
bronze kelp
that would be a bit weird as assa ^^
grizzled jay
Well with high crit TTK and EB ure a pseudo sub anyway
bronze kelp
yeah especially cause we do a lot of aoe, so the adds would not live long enough
XD
just need to boost my assa spec a bit, to be stronger on m+ compared to my outlaw spec ^^
im just a way better assa player than outlaw, but my outlaw gear is a bit stronger
bronze kelp
but outlaw is such a hectic gcdlocked playstyle
in legion i liked that on my enhancer, but on bfa its not my style, but its strong ^^
hollow haven
grizzled jay
Gz man
worldly iron
vendor is rigged 
giving me pretty good outlaw pieces
early uldir forced me into outlaw with wq weapon rewards and zero actual drops
strange python
5 hours until weekly chest xD
median tiger
EU
worldly iron
wish I could open my weekly chest before going to work so I don't have to wait until I get home to be disappointed
median tiger
Us NA peeps got 5 hours
The anticipation
I know
I will be going out later and come home at reset time
grizzled jay
I mean after farming hc and a bit of mythic and a few weekly caches you can only expect so much from that chest
median tiger
Kinda true
worldly iron
my friend got a 425 conch first week
worldly iron
I just want a trinket, man
median tiger
I never got a trinket from weekly cache
full pagoda
@grizzled jay how many runs did you make to get your trinkets, the plunge and dice
bronze kelp
i just want a 420 weapon 😃 then im fine
full pagoda
@median tiger me neither
worldly iron
our shaman conch guy is like 415 ilvl
median tiger
I run shrine once, today, because my friend got it and i want to clear a shrine 10 just for achievement
worldly iron
luck just isn't on everyone's side
full pagoda
Well I've been using gale for ages, I don't think it's as bad if you get used to itx and mostly know what and when the bosses does to not waste it's duration
full pagoda
Been super unlucky with trinkets this expansion
bronze kelp
farming spyglass and gale is on my to do list atm 😉
median tiger
U got dice?
median tiger
Nice
bronze kelp
on 8.0. it took me 49 runs to get dice
grizzled jay
@full pagoda don't remember. Not too many tho for the vanilla 400s.
full pagoda
It is but if you have to move it sucks
median tiger
Ofc...
full pagoda
You need to know when to use it and this kinda suck if you have to use the rest of the cds, to not delay
median tiger
10s though
Hit it and quit
I also got the 385 on use haste trinket from tortollan emissary
So i got 2 trinket to line up with vendetta
full pagoda
Can't remember it xD
median tiger
Its on use 1 min cd
full pagoda
For me it's just gale haaha
full pagoda
Doesn't it share same CD
median tiger
That thing so good for burst
My hunter still rocking the 370 dooms wake
Apparently its his bis
strange python
You cannot have 2x on use
median tiger
Wait waht
clever niche
You can, the 20s CD that triggers from double on use causes a dps loss as things don’t line up as well
clever niche
Gone are the days of immense double on use trinket burst
median tiger
The crit proc is nice
full pagoda
Yeah, my second trinket is Ivus s tm
raven mica
Back in legion I had the worst trinket situation ever, I was stuck with specter of death and the mistress toxin trinket
full pagoda
Atm*
median tiger
400?
raven mica
Throughout tos it was awful.
full pagoda
I think so
median tiger
I have a 385 with socket
full pagoda
Don't remember atm xD
full pagoda
Mine's gale is 380
median tiger
Hopefully my 10 key this week is a FH
full pagoda
median tiger
So i can roll on it
full pagoda
I keep bonus rolls for raid
median tiger
I mean rogue get invited to FH easily anyway haha
full pagoda
Yeah
median tiger
Shroud ftw
bronze kelp
rogue get invited for every damn dungeon easily
clever niche
Oh god I remember using engine of eradication in ToS. I never want to orb dance again
median tiger
Master classsss
bronze kelp
was the best decision ever to reroll to rogue
full pagoda
What class were you before
bronze kelp
enhancer shaman in legion
raven mica
Inb4 feral
bronze kelp
but in legion my focus was on raiding
median tiger
Aint feral a poorman rogue?
bronze kelp
in the last 6-9 months before bfa I had more and more fun doing m+
raven mica
Nah that’s DH
solid nova
Take it to #wow-general
clever niche
Anyone at mythic mekka and have any advice? I’m about to start prog on it tonight
raven mica
When the sims tell you to stop
raven mica
A mix of 6 target 40 secs/1 min and the dungeon slice should give you enough information
median tiger
U need crit for echoing blade?
raven mica
Seal fate
median tiger
So we want mastery?
dark crag
Haste loses value in m+ because you get many ruptures ticking
devout jolt
Sim for ST/Raid keeps telling me to go mastery, my poor Haste has plummeted
grizzled jay
Try simming with *replace gems enchants " feature and put them to haste. See how that works out
devout jolt
been doing that with haste/mastery gems, always leads to putting mastery gems everywhere ha. dmg is still going up but just it weird that it isnt liking me having much haste atm
full pagoda
@devout jolt same, I'm running the tb/dd build for ST, prolly that's why
devout jolt
yeah, i guessed it was the talent build
full pagoda
How much mastery do you have
hollow pier
you wanna shoot for around 1600 haste then after that its sorta eh
full pagoda
I had 26mastry% which is low compared to most assas, now it's 30% and still wants mastery but I'll stop for now
devout jolt
unfortunately i logged out in outlaw but i feel its around 25%/30%
full pagoda
Nah, I've got almost 1.5 haste and it wanted mastery
So 1.6 might be good haste but yeah
devout jolt
my haste at its lowest dropped to 13%
full pagoda
I'm at 19% atm
devout jolt
will go home at lunch and resim and play around
full pagoda
I'm at work atm so
devout jolt
same
i do think i have felt the lack of haste however in my rotation which is kinda annoying
but that may just be me thinking too hard
bronze kelp
@raven mica a mix of 6targets/1min? who pulls 6 targets XD And DungeonSlice is pretty useless, cause it always favors haste way too much
quick ice
because it has a lot of boss
bronze kelp
i try to build my stats around 6% haste for fort and 10-13% on tyr weeks, after that stacking crit 😃
yep
so its not worth for me to sim that
dungeon slice is maybe not that bad sim fight style if you want to sim dungeons like KR oder tmeple
bronze kelp
10-13% too low? i dont want to drop my other stats to low
as im stil running EB i want to stay above 30% crit, and with my current gear thats not possible with more than 13% haste 😉
strange python
don't you starve for energy then?
royal lantern
idk, single target with under 15%haste feels soooo bad
bronze kelp
not starving, but sure im doing less dmg cause im more trash orientated
median tiger
Crit haste enchant right?
bronze kelp
im running crit versa atm, cause it sims higher on any fighstyle
was a bit weird, but i trusted the sims 😉
median tiger
Hmm i thought assa is a haste starve spec
median tiger
Isnt 5 cp kinda akward for us? Since mutilate give 2cp each?
bronze kelp
maybe haste crit enchant is better, i got that "replace enchant/gems" thing not checked XD
median tiger
Like what do u do when u get 4cp and bleed is still up?
bronze kelp
evis 😃
median tiger
Oh ok
bronze kelp
dont waste CPs on casting another mutilate
median tiger
Aint strategem kinda make it smooth b
worldly iron
5 combo points into tb is fine
bronze kelp
nope not worth it
worldly iron
it is
bronze kelp
it is ?
median tiger
Now hope opulence drop me the 400 dagger
worldly iron
don't aim for it, but it's okay if you get into that situation