assassination

[prisma monolith]

• Energy just is low on the spec there's nothing to do about it, you will run out
• Without the Apex talent there is no reason to pool, once midnight drops this will update with whatever logic is found

[dawn seal]

do we do any pooling at the moment

[balmy condor]

nop

[dawn seal]

so we still perma send

and not care bout energy

[jolly stirrup]

Well

We do play around the APEX if we wouldn't overcap

[dawn seal]

i am stupid i cant understand and learn how to pool

is that a problem

[jolly stirrup]

Whats your Goal in WoW?

[dawn seal]

get better

get ce

vibe with friends

[balmy condor]

kinda, you don't envenom if you're at 80 stacks of the apex

as long as you won't overcap ofc

[jolly stirrup]

You can still do other stuff, like refresh bleeds and prepare a new 5+cp envenom so that you can send it as soon as you get the Regen buff

[dawn seal]

i do some wowhead reading

[jolly stirrup]

Honestly the wowhead guide is very well written. And if you still have questions, feel free to reach out here, most of us like to help, some do some shit posting though

[low hare]

@balmy condor do you have any advice for dragons? im pretty happy with my preformance on every other fight, but dragons i just cant seem to make the numbers go up

at least compared to top parses

[balmy condor]

heroic or mythic

[low hare]

heroic pushing rn

b

well its clear, but i didnt do good on that one fight

and im wondering why

[waxen oyster]

pad more on orbs

[balmy condor]

honestly just take caustic and maybe CT

and pray the orbs are on top

otherwise you're fucked

[low hare]

gotcha, yea im also with a group that has some really good burst AoE

so i barely get to touch them

[balmy condor]

doomed then

[low hare]

do you turn to orbs for caustic? or cleave off the dragon?>

yea i kinda figured that might be the case >.<

[balmy condor]

cleave off dragon

but the orbs should be gripped into caustic range

[low hare]

gotcha maybe thats it, currently they are gripping orbs to mid

[jolly stirrup]

Do we know how long this season is?

[balmy condor]

yeah you're fucked

[low hare]

RIP >.< maybe ill ask them to try gripping to boss next week

see what they say

[wintry vapor]

I'm sure you can work something out :)

[balmy condor]

12.1 is in the summer

most likely mid to late july I would think

12.0.5 is probably like end of april, 12.0.7 would be start of june

1.5-2 months of that one boss raid

then season 2

[jolly stirrup]

Gotcha

[arctic crown]

rogue supremacy

[balmy condor]

what am I looking at

[arctic crown]

15 skyreach

[primal parrot]

pain

[balmy condor]

for 2.5 hours?

[static glacier]

what did you think rogue supremacy meant

[balmy condor]

[whole mason]

just curious, what's the leather embelishiment effects?

[static glacier]

unironically

[static glacier]

it doesn't matter, just sim and pick whichever one you like the look of

[whole mason]

not the linen

the leather set

[static glacier]

pick up balls

for stats

[brazen falcon]

in st for keys do you get to 80% on apex buff then stop pressing envenom to let it drop?

[static glacier]

i'd say go for dmd:hunt / embelish on rings or armour

[static glacier]

if letting it drop won't cause you to overcap then yes

[balmy condor]

yep, any time you're not overcapping energy you should do it

[static glacier]

if it would fire another env

[brazen falcon]

is there like an energy threshold to know would overcap?

[static glacier]

too dependant on target count / upcoming globals

[primal parrot]

am i correct in assuming that opening with the following sequence is correct? (with Imp. Garrote)

Stealth>Garrote>Mut until 6 CP>Rupture>Mut until 6 CP>Envenom>DM>KB>Envenom

also taking into account that i use imp. garrote before the timer runs out to extend the duration

[balmy condor]

5cp not 6

[static glacier]

replace mut with fok and you're golden

[balmy condor]

but sure yeah looks good

well, mut in ST

I assume it's ST

[primal parrot]

yeah

[static glacier]

im assuming aoe

[brazen falcon]

also are you still lining up vanish into garrote for dm windows or nah

[static glacier]

in st ye, in aoe not neccesarily

[brazen falcon]

aight ty

[primal parrot]

so you hold first vanish for 2nd DM

[static glacier]

i think there's a discussion about this exact topic in one of whispyr's yap videos

[balmy condor]

yeah but there's been like 8 sim updates since

I wouldn't put weight into old videos

[static glacier]

you created this work for yourself

[brazen falcon]

im just messing around with sin and didnt know things

[static glacier]

go yap at the camera, onlyfan(ofknives) worker

[primal parrot]

class discord where you can ask questions without being chastised?
what is this, the garden of eden?

thank u whispyr

[balmy condor]

funnily I seem to have amassed a reputation of being a dickhead depending who you ask

[primal parrot]

yeah no objectively ur a kind person

[static glacier]

either way if you get a natty restealth before pull on a boss, you can save vanish

[balmy condor]

preciate you

[static glacier]

and if you chain pull and see a massive pull but you didn't get a restealth send vanish for the gar dmg

[primal parrot]

what about target count
at what target count do you send FoK, just 2+?

[balmy condor]

2 without blindside, 3 if you have blindside

[primal parrot]

terrific
now i can go into keys without feeling lost

[sand elm]

does secondary poisoning affect that in any way as fok doesnt proc it?

for 2 target specifically

[balmy condor]

not enough to matter

[sand elm]

kk

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna double check just to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass and giving an accurate number real quick

[sand elm]

wouldnt that mean SP isnt even worth taking if were supposed to fok on 2 targets

autos i guess

[balmy condor]

okay I got my numbers

in pure single target, no additional anything

auto attacks account for 81.5% of your applied poisons

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

16% is mutilate, 2% is envenom, and the other 0.5% is like garrote and rupture randomly applying it

so like

"oh no my mutilate isn't proccing secondary poisoning ahhhhhhh"

[jolly stirrup]

Chat what do we think, does this count as a balanced breakfast?

[sand elm]

not even yellow monster

[balmy condor]

YELLOW?

[jolly stirrup]

Can we ban him?

Or her

[balmy condor]

idk what flavor that even is

[jolly stirrup]

Isn't it

[sand elm]

i dont know if they even do yellow anymore

[jolly stirrup]

What's his name

[sand elm]

i used to drink it before work like 15 years ago

[balmy condor]

pineapple?

[jolly stirrup]

Dis?

[balmy condor]

what the fuck is that

[jolly stirrup]

I think we dont have that here in Germany

Hell idfk

I googled yellow monster

Ironically

[primal parrot]

piss creature pogchamp

[jolly stirrup]

Google didn't disappoint

[sand elm]

was before that 1 if i remember right

[arctic crown]

Rogue supremacy

[balmy condor]

that seems more reasonable

[primal parrot]

four pandas

[jolly stirrup]

Lol all 3 rogue specs in a key

[arctic crown]

4 pandas

[jolly stirrup]

Pandasupremacy

[primal parrot]

i am throbbing with anger

[arctic crown]

all we need is a feast for the pandas

[sonic zinc]

do we hold for puzzle box

or just send and hold box

[severe meadow]

Exodia

[sonic zinc]

waiut nvm

stupid affix

[jolly stirrup]

Let me hold you while I show you:

@primal parrot

[primal parrot]

https://tenor.com/view/aneurysm-hhhhomeboyyyy-kings-dark-tidings-saga-by-kel-kade-reaperleviathan-head-explode-gif-21578105

[jolly stirrup]

That's not even my current tmog. Thank you wowarmory

[primal parrot]

goblin supremacy

[jolly stirrup]

Never seen

Are you EU or NA based?

[sand elm]

UK and it was from like 15 years ago

[jolly stirrup]

Well 15 years ago I was in the UK tbf

But i was just 12 yo

[sand elm]

it was super sweet

original khaos was nice as well

[wintry vapor]

I'd now post mechagnome supremacy, but sadly, even I know that ain't true

[maiden tapir]

Is ther a sweet spot haste wise for m+ ?

[balmy condor]

nah

we have no breakpoints

[jolly stirrup]

Our spec doesn't, we as people do

[wispy apex]

How do you guys play during big packs in m+? Do you just CT untill all mobs have bleeds before going into cds?

[zinc frost]

You'll want CDs out first

[agile wedge]

I try bring cds first and then ct

Else I sit too long on cds

[brave gyro]

Yo if any kultirans and lightforged on EU, I need you to stay in the Arcantina forever so I can brew you for achievement

[brave gyro]

Idk man, I'm kinda at my breaking point recently

[balmy condor]

[jolly heath]

In aoe, during improve garrote window, do we spam crimson tempest to spread it then in last second, using garrote again then spam crimson tempest again?

[balmy condor]

nah, you just get your bleeds out, press cds, then spread

[zinc frost]

Am I crazy to think this is the best sin has felt to play in a long time?

[brave gyro]

I don't know, but I like it

Playing all 3 specs, so the only thing is how energy starved I feel during certain moments

But other than that, feels pretty sweet

[balmy condor]

I agree but if I say that out loud they would have my skull on a spike outside of orgrimmar

So instead of that

FUCK YOU WHERES MY ENERGY

[brave gyro]

Both can be true

[solar wyvern]

U want energy just play secondary poisoning amen

[drifting cloud]

Shadowblades taking bribes from monster energy

[balmy condor]

God I fucking wish

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a monster sponsorship

I do

I tried

[queen egret]

how many sparks should we have this week? mine says 5/5 and i cant see the world tour quest?

[drifting cloud]

the free one doesnz count in that number

so 6

[balmy condor]

Should have 6 yeah

And next week it’ll be 7

[cunning needle]

Talk to sordy in the inn

[balmy condor]

Talk to shortie in the inn? Ayo I’m on it

[glad ferry]

Is assa gonna be BiS for raid progression now?

I've been in sub jail for too long

[zinc frost]

I see you crack a monster on stream and it makes me want one, if that isn't good advertising I dont know what is

[cunning needle]

The only jails we are in are the ones that we make for ourselves

Free yourself brotherman

[glad ferry]

If I free myself I will be bench jail

[cunning needle]

No brother

The bench is freedom

Free to roam as you will

Free to do anything

[queen egret]

who??

[rigid tartan]

Still more worth to bring assa than bench rogue for non rwf guilds because the poison dr is free world ranks because less deaths

[cunning needle]

Enter the inn. Some person called sordami

[rigid tartan]

There’s top 30 guilds playing outlaw even

[true tusk]

Is there any talent pathing that lets you pick up Sudden Demise and actually makes it worth it?

I kinda miss it tbh, because by the time I’ve popped CDs and spread my bleeds/poisons, the pack is already almost dead from specs with more flat damage

[jolly stirrup]

How does that help you in regards of getting your bleeds spread faster? If even, it makes the adds die faster because of your sudden demise, or am I understanding your question wrong

[warm vortex]

Check your memory usage

Could genuinely be a memory leak

[true tusk]

Basically, if packs die before full spread, Sudden Demise at least lets the existing bleeds convert into execute damage so the ramp isn’t wasted

[zinc frost]

If you type in sudden demise there are some builds without DTB etc so you can grab SD but its like for super low keys.

[compact flame]

When Tank is gathering a big pull togehter, how are you got an overview if every mob got bleeds on? You watxh the nameplates or got an addon for that?😄

[zinc frost]

Generally just nameplates

[true tusk]

I think it’s very poorly positioned in the tree. If it were simply in Shrouded Suffocation’s spot, it would completely change the state of Sin Rogue

[wide flare]

hey guys, is there any chance to get the puzzelbox with deathmark into one macro.
standard macro doesn't work cause of channeling the trinket.

[runic hinge]

yeah, puzzyb is on the gcd so you could cast sequence it but it wont work like that

[wide flare]

okay, mhmmm, thx

[zinc frost]

Whats the state of sin rogue?

[true tusk]

There’s some inconsistency in certain pulls when it comes to doing decent AoE compared to other classes. Even Feral feels better designed in that regard. CT works really well with the rework, but there’s still a lot of inconsistency

[zinc frost]

What inconsistency?

[true tusk]

Whether the fight lasts long enough for your DoTs to fully complete their cycle

[warm vortex]

Is warcraft logs down for anyone else

[covert jewel]

ye

[true tusk]

@zinc frost And since a lot of pulls don’t last long enough for DoTs to fully complete their cycle, either they remove or soften the cap like they did for Feral, or they position Sudden Demise in a way that’s more accessible without sacrificing anything essential in the current tree, making it much more solid

[balmy condor]

[balmy condor]

It’s been having backend issues since midnight launched

[zinc frost]

Yeah but sin just cranks in higher keys, lost pad damage, gained more ST damage seems like a win

[warm vortex]

Well so have i

And I'm still working (sorta) fine

[true tusk]

Not to mention the tier set, which I feel is pretty underwhelming compared to other classes/specs

[grim jay]

they all arent insane

with only a few exceptions

[vestal wren]

yep
#subtlety message

[warm vortex]

Cheers, saw it myself but was unsure if it was a region thing

[true tusk]

That’s true, but on Sin Rogue nothing really feels insane. It doesn’t feel bad, but in M+ it always ends up falling behind unless you’re pushing very high keys

[vestal wren]

central europe for me

[true tusk]

Just look at Unholy, it went from being in the gutter to being brought back, same with Feral. I don’t understand how Sin Rogue is still dealing with the same problems, even if not as badly…

[grim jay]

thats usually the nature of dot specs

also not really anything big to do with tier sets

[grim jay]

its not really dealing with "problems" imo

its just tuning atp

[jolly stirrup]

Took me a while lol

[rare stone]

So my understanding now is we save vanish for deathmark unless the boss is gonna die before the deathmark CD

right?

[true tusk]

Hopefully. The April 7 tuning was a good step in the right direction, but I feel like it’ll need quite a bit more

[runic hinge]

you think assa needs more tuning?

[true tusk]

For AoE and M+, absolutely yes, to make it more consistent throughout the dungeon

[grim jay]

I'm not sure about the amount and how it will now play out in highkeys, I also felt like it could use slightly more as I've read the notes

but I also didnt play sin on anything above 12 yet

been sub gaming

[balmy condor]

[grim jay]

on the other hand, rather than the damage (being just tuning), the worse offender clearly is our utility

[buoyant herald]

mmm raid is one thing but not having a throughput buff means you're relying purely on high tuning

for m+

leaving you with warlock, DK, paladin

haven't seen warlock or ret be meta in ages

[static glacier]

honestly at this point it ain't even just a raid thing

[true tusk]

That's normal, right now Sub is just performing better, roughly 7k ahead on ST and about 5–6k on AoE, at least from my Raidbots sims

[static glacier]

you need good tuning to be played in raid too

[buoyant herald]

yes, but at least guilds will TRY bring a rogue

[grim jay]

sims are no indicator for performance in that regard

[static glacier]

mine didn't

xd

[buoyant herald]

the problem is outside of top guilds doing those fights with low gear

it's not usually lack of survivability holding you back

for CE guilds

[grim jay]

can be arguably worse tuned in raid and still be brought ye

[static glacier]

why bring a rogue if you can just spam ranged?

[buoyant herald]

so atrophic value kinda gets worse imo

[static glacier]

and your melee spots are taken by mw

and the grip dk

which barely classes as melee anyway

[buoyant herald]

i mean both echo and liquid have a rogue in now but that's for buff

that melee spot would just be another unholy'

[static glacier]

thank god, now other guilds might bring rogue back

[buoyant herald]

otherwise

[shell plaza]

whats the reason they play sub and not assa

[grim jay]

bro ive been doing m+ on my unholy

its wild

[true tusk]

@balmy condor What’s your take on this? Do you think it’ll need more tuning beyond the April 7 changes, particularly regarding AoE consistency in M+?

[zinc frost]

Watch his video

[buoyant herald]

sub has big burst on short CD, makes it VERY flexible for add spawns, damage amps etc

it's also a wee bit tankier

i don't think this boss has any special execute value?

[balmy condor]

Assa is already the best of the 3 specs in m+, cranks like hell, and now just does so even better after the tuning

[static glacier]

the only thing tying that spec to melee (sudden doom from melee swings) got removed

now you litterally need 2 globals of melee every calendar year to apply wounds

or w/e the buff for cs is called

[balmy condor]

My biggest concern about the tuning is that we’re gonna be too strong in m+ and still not be great in raid

[grim jay]

festering scythe

[buoyant herald]

i've already seen some big keys coming out of assa

[static glacier]

akshually its strike 🙂

[buoyant herald]

certainly looks like it's gonna be nice

[static glacier]

xd

[grim jay]

the one with the debuff is scythe

strike is needed beforehand tho ye

[static glacier]

im talking about the buff to cs to spawn ur lil dudes

scythe being every 2nd strike

is w/e

[cunning needle]

blizzard needs to tune m+ separately from raid

[grim jay]

scythe is more important

[static glacier]

as far as im concerned it's the same spell

[grim jay]

tbh

kinda

somewhat

[static glacier]

it's hard to drop the debuff

anyways ye the spec is sick

[grim jay]

its also arguably fun now

[balmy condor]

It’s pretty disgusting ye

[static glacier]

yknow what isn't sick, this algethar prison

[buoyant herald]

makes me warm and fuzzy inside

[true tusk]

I guess in Raid, the concern is that since it scales a lot and has strong relevance in endgame, if they tune it too much it could end up being completely broken on nuke bosses. Maybe that?

[buoyant herald]

but also i watched the vids and if my tanks pulled like that i reckon i'd do better too 😂

[balmy condor]

…what?

What is any of that

[static glacier]

at this point there's no fix, they can't even just giga buff mut - raid has too much cleave

[balmy condor]

What scaling

What nuke bosses

Why would it be broken

[grim jay]

my dk immediately got guidon in vault and on rogue my tank friend looted like 6 of these while I was in his group

[balmy condor]

What is a “strong relevance in endgame”

[static glacier]

im guessing he means overall performance being good enough that the spec shapes the meta? god knows

if this were a st tier sin woulda had a bigger role to play raid-wise

[true tusk]

In previous expansions, it was seen as very strong and used for nuke boss fights, and whenever it gets tuned for raids it usually ends up in that spot — or at least that’s my perception

[static glacier]

I think you mean dmg amps for nuke?

what does nuke boss fight mean

[balmy condor]

I been sayin it for a while, scent of blood 4%/8% per target, 12%/24% max on god

[static glacier]

issue would be the uptime

[balmy condor]

It’s not even like top 5 for burst idk

[static glacier]

by the time you got to ct the bleeds onto adds they're like 30% hp from huntards

[balmy condor]

Feels a little disconnected from reality

[shell plaza]

we have so much add dmg in the guild i can hardly see the adds

[static glacier]

I suspect he may be judging post-tuning sin which normally is tuned to be decent after race is over

atleast that was the trend all of tww

[balmy condor]

I mean the real solution is Warcraftlogs removes shit like dragon voidorbs from logs

[static glacier]

bro that is the biggest tuning buff for that boss imaginable

[true tusk]

Maybe it depends on the level of my raid, but right now even the Frost Mage in my guild doesn’t beat me in burst — at least when using CDs, Bloodlust, potion, Puzzle Box, etc

[balmy condor]

I mean maybe then people would stop dooming the spec to shit

[static glacier]

kekw

it's spec identity at this point

[true tusk]

Maybe from a more professional standpoint, it does fall a bit short

[static glacier]

we just aren't good at burst aoe if shit isn't spawned under the boss on a kb timer

[zinc frost]

Nah but there's still "energy issues" so the dooming will continue

[static glacier]

as far as im concerned if there's no relevant execute people just default to sub

spec perception wise

after like 15y or w/e the default rogue spec is the pvp spec xd

[plucky ember]

i need a new mastery trinket, sick of the puzzlebox

[balmy condor]

Frost also isn’t a burst spec?

[static glacier]

bro I think you need to check this

@true tusk

[warm vortex]

Why

Puzzlebox is nutso good

[true tusk]

So I guess my guild is pretty bad then, haha — since we’re the only two at the top for burst xDD HAHAHAH

[warm vortex]

and all it costs is standing still for 2 seconds every 2 minutes

[static glacier]

peak burst

roughly tells you how hard specs burst

[balmy condor]

Yeh kinda, bloodlust does muddy it pretty hard

[shell plaza]

thats 2 seconds too much

[balmy condor]

Like devourer is not doing those numbers outside of lust

[static glacier]

it also doesn't communicate how prolonged the burst is

[balmy condor]

But yeh

[balmy condor]

Yeah that’s a problem

[warm vortex]

It's still

I don't understand why people hate it so much
it's 2 seconds

like

???

2 seconds for mastery injected right into your veins

and somehow solving this puzzlebox makes your posions more potent

[shell plaza]

feels bad thats all

[warm vortex]

?!?

Oh that ?!?! btw

wasn't to what you said

[static glacier]

it's categorically worse than recent trinks of its type too

[balmy condor]

There is no world where you should be doing more burst than unholy or elemental or hunters

[warm vortex]

it was to the poison point
cause reading it and it looks like im a ahole

[static glacier]

they've been making a lot of cast time trinkets usable on the move

box isn't

[warm vortex]

Fair

But i just don't feel like it's that big of a deal at all personally, especially with how much mastery you gain

[static glacier]

real talk

is it just me or does destro beat sin at execute

[balmy condor]

What do you feel

[warm vortex]

Happy

[runic hinge]

makes one of us

[warm vortex]

Yea, not gonna give you a degen answer for once

genuinly feel happy playing wow atm

[static glacier]

MUST BE NICE HAVING UR BOX

AGHHHHHHHHHHH

(2nd char, rogue got it first run so i shouldn't talk)

[warm vortex]

I've only got it on champ

I'm farming AA rn

[static glacier]

makes two of us, i've defaulted to bm for it

much more braindead than bothering with melee

[warm vortex]

I mean

Look at where SV is

above avarage

that's like

the biggest win for survival ever

[static glacier]

sv is like, 5k more st boss dps

and like 15-20k less overall?

vs bm in aa

for me

• you actually have to sweat vs standing 40y payphoning

[true tusk]

Yeah, I might not have explained myself well before. If it gets proper raid tuning, its stability and strong long-fight scaling, and plus would likely push it into at least the top 10 for burst minimum. It already sits around 13, and in practice it tends to perform better than sims suggest due to its consistency. Historically, whenever it’s been properly tuned, its performance has shot up into top-tier, as seen in past expansions and patches

[static glacier]

what do you mean by long fight scaling

[warm vortex]

I mean

I've been pumping and doing top in the keys i've been in so far

[static glacier]

it's mainly the giga large pulls

bm has the edge on sv

and thats with a hero bow vs 285 dagger

[warm vortex]

Eh, i get what you mean

[static glacier]

at equal wep I don't think it's a competition

[balmy condor]

Doesn’t beat, but shadowburn goes pretty hard

[warm vortex]

but ionly feel that on like

AA first pull

seat first pull i feel like i can still get pretty far into

[static glacier]

i was being told by a lock it's giga, checked sims looks a bit spooky

[warm vortex]

and also on AA, i can just giga hyper pad on the boss with boomstick the frame ads spawn

[balmy condor]

Yeh it’s kinda nutty

[warm vortex]

so it balances out

What if they gave BM stupid silly execute again

[static glacier]

dmg graph on lock is so cooked

tf

[warm vortex]

Also

[warm vortex]

Gross BM propaganda

[true tusk]

For example, in phases where it’s more about dodging and surviving than doing damage, you can just leave your DoTs ticking and barely lose any damage, while other classes drop off a lot

[balmy condor]

That is not remotely true

[warm vortex]

Wait

[static glacier]

wp to leak, still im unsure if im convinced - pit is sv favoured, 2t boss and all + sv absolutely pads tf out of last boss adds

[warm vortex]

That makes 0 sense?

[balmy condor]

Like that’s basically full on misinformation lmao

[static glacier]

maybe in the past (loooong ago) this was true

assassination relies heavily on uptime now

[balmy condor]

You walk away from the boss you’re losing 80% of your damage

[static glacier]

amp poison, env chains

there's a bunch of stuff tied to keeping uptime

[warm vortex]

Just give us acrobatic strikes ultra

25 yard melee range

[balmy condor]

I mean forget that

Just the fact you’re not auto attacking

Not pressing envenom

[static glacier]

im just trying to come up for stuff for him

ye our dps just stops outside of dots

[warm vortex]

You have posion knife tho 6head

just press than and forget about it

[static glacier]

YOOOOOO THE LEGENDARY

[balmy condor]

Don’t have to skin a cat here it’s insanely obvious, you just have to look at the breakdown and realize that your bleeds ain’t doing shit

[runic hinge]

spot number 6 is a little sus

[static glacier]

remember when we were cooking potentially using it in kb lmao

[balmy condor]

The VAST majority of your damage requires you to hit your target and it’s always been like that

[static glacier]

you've not lost to guardian on first pull of a key yet have you

[balmy condor]

People just fucking love to go “oh but it has dots so downtime must be great”

And that’s never been true lmao

[runic hinge]

oh i definitely have, its sus cause why are they so damn bursty LOL

[static glacier]

makes two of us

after the pull they fall off a cliff

but that first pull, idk what they're snorting

[balmy condor]

Elune’s fairy dust

[warm vortex]

Spatter is still uncapped right

[balmy condor]

(Red moon)

[warm vortex]

but it's a lot less than it used to be right

[balmy condor]

It’s softcapped like everything else

[warm vortex]

Yea

whispyer

[static glacier]

same softcap as ever

[warm vortex]

you know what i mean

[static glacier]

always been 5t soft

from when they added it

[balmy condor]

I don’t, because usually people say capped to outlaw, which is hardcappd at 8

:)

[warm vortex]

Yea that's what i sorta meant, if they changed it to have a target cap of like 8 or smth

[static glacier]

like hard?

[warm vortex]

Last time i actually played assa i remember spatter being like idk

40% or somethign

And seeing 18% made me do a double take

[static glacier]

spatter had a higher conversion rate

but cap was the same

[balmy condor]

Such is midnight reworking specs I guess

[static glacier]

I still want shiv back

fucking bastards give me shiv back

[balmy condor]

Psychic link used to be 100% at one point now it’s 30

Blade flurry used to be a toggle that reduced your energy regen

Such is life

[true tusk]

I’m not saying it’s the best right now, especially with how Envenom chaining, but other specs have it even worse in that specific case. I’m not claiming it’s the strongest or most solid spec, but in my experience it’s struggled more in M+ than in raid

[golden loom]

Aoe shiv was kinda fun but idm it being gone from single target

[warm vortex]

I think i heard your back crack during that sentance gramps

[winged quail]

imagine the shiv talent in the class tree gave us aoe shiv instead of extra range

[static glacier]

im still fuming they kept vanish interactions but not shiv

like the fuck

[golden loom]

I did a key as unholy with a devourer and an aug and I had the longest range abilites that spec can move out of melee

[balmy condor]

It’s definitely not struggling in m+, and it’s not really struggling in raids either, it just can’t do the burst/spread cleave required of all the fights, that’s what ranged are for and why the race has 12-13 ranged dps in their comps

Melee sucks at spread and melee sucks at downtime

[true tusk]

That's totally a fact

[runic hinge]

And the only reason you might think its weak in low keys is that everything dies too fast but like half the specs also have that problem and if everything is dying fast you can just do higher keys

[golden loom]

Playing with an mm Hunter in 10s as a ramping spec on a pack they have cds

But then you log onto havoc and beat them heck yeah burst aoe

[sharp viper]

just play MM hunter

[static glacier]

lowkey

speed at which a spec can do its damage is for me becoming an important metric

[runic hinge]

time to play ret

[static glacier]

so many situations where if kb just did its dps all at once sin woulda been insane

also in 10s gl dming a mob and not having it die before kb expires

@balmy condor bro we need this level of sandbagging

warlocks are weak against rot damage

bro coulda just said the spec needs to turret to cast

[balmy condor]

Still a problem in 14’s

[static glacier]

Im down to blame how strong env is for that tbh

we do a metric fuck ton of dmg to the prio target and less spatter

[manic quartz]

Today is the day i go back assa,❤️

Our rogues got benched me included so ill just play my beloved spec and be over it.

[zinc frost]

Did a 14 MT and used KB on one of the casters in the second pull and pretty sure it died just after the animation

[wary light]

When is the deathmark transfer on death thing coming? Was it in the .5 patch?

[static glacier]

you won't pick it

it's a choice node with 10% dmg amp while dm is up

[wary light]

It's a TALENT?

[static glacier]

yes

[wary light]

Holy I thought it was just gonna be baked in

[zinc frost]

A talent no one wanted or asked for

[static glacier]

we don't get things baked in

this is rogue

not ret

we've been crying since tww launch about deathstalker

they doubled down

[lethal wadi]

apex talent still bugged to track?

[zinc frost]

Yep

[lethal wadi]

fml

[static glacier]

you can technically track it in the buff bar

[shut sand]

Im simming 83k ST

I’m getting there boys

Slowly but surely

[pliant falcon]

Will Deathstalker be more viable now with the FoK buff?

[marble hemlock]

used to be a 2min cd, even

https://i.imgur.com/Juursf7.jpeg

should change it back to this, tbh

[real pike]

I feel like there's too much incoming damage for how quickly mobs are dying tho

Ratio is off

[grim jay]

should just change the whole spec back to wod

[real pike]

When I played wrath I didn't realise it did the AS buff for over a year so I only pressed it in aoe

[shut sand]

yo question

can we puzzlebox right before pull to not have that 2 sec downtime?

woiuldnt that technically be better?

[spice surge]

Then you would waste half of the buff while you're setting up your bleeds

[shut sand]

it lasts longer than your DM though

[spice surge]

Which is a lot worse than having the downtime during combat

[shut sand]

DM is 16 sc

[shut sand]

2 sec is a lot of downtime though

its CP

[spice surge]

Not really

[runic hinge]

2 seconds before you actually press your cds is nothing

plus the gcds you're buffing before cds do nothing

[shut sand]

but arent u overcapping on energy

from spending 2 seconds

doing nothing

[runic hinge]

Probably overcapping from lust anyways

[shut sand]

technically 3 secs since ur waiting for KB to give u

cps

i was thinking, u do a less optimal rotation to get to using ur cds earlier, so ur not wasting seconds of puzzlebox buff

like u do ur rupture then u instantly do DM into KB

u dont wait for envenom first

[runic hinge]

lets say you get really unluck and none of your mutis crit, now you're garrote, muti, muti, rupture, muti, muti, muti, envenom then cds

[shut sand]

or maybe rupture 2nd garrote if u got the imrpove version

[runic hinge]

thats 8 seconds

pb is buffing nothing

[shut sand]

u skip the envenom

[runic hinge]

yeah but then you dont have snd

[spice surge]

Not worth

[runic hinge]

and your whole opener is worse

[shut sand]

u get SND up faster

from KB

[runic hinge]

so you're just losing damage to not cast puzzlebox during your opener

[shut sand]

gets u rolling quicker

[runic hinge]

you can theorize all you want

casting pb before opener is strictly worse

and skipping envenom is also worse

theres a dude with blue hair who's done the math

probably a bunch of time

[crisp pine]

Goku?

[runic hinge]

close

[strange onyx]

he doesnt even look a bit like jesus

[latent copper]

So its better to cast PB when u spreaded your cp? And should we do 1 evenom before?

[spice surge]

But he talks like a gentleman

[latent copper]

Difficult…depends as well on dmg and key lvl. If u do thst ob low keys

Mobs are dead before

[jolly stirrup]

HIYA

BYEYA

[runic hinge]

Tbh in low keys I’m just not even gonna use pb

The 1-2% it’s better isn’t worth the wait

[analog field]

I mean why are we theory crafting if mobs die before full DM?

Just play with your feet and you time the content

[strange onyx]

Just hit the buttons bros

[analog field]

The opener is suggested for a reason and it applies to content that "matters"

[rotund oak]

the opener applies to everywhere

because its the most optimal

[analog field]

I mean it is not most optimal for a 2

but it doesn't matter

[latent copper]

Assa heavily depend on pulls, key lvl, mob types and so on…

[rotund oak]

well in the vast majority of it

still overall the most optimal

[strange onyx]

i hate elementals, they dont bleed ):

[analog field]

In a +2 it probably is better to not envenom before dm

but my point is we don't analyse these

[latent copper]

Yeah and fie too fast

[analog field]

we talk about content that mayters

[rotund oak]

well +2s dont matter overall,i get ur point

[latent copper]

For me is low everything below 12

Depends on grp sure bur if 2 other blaster its hard

[analog field]

At the moment even 14's seem to be really easy

[rotund oak]

yeah its a comedy rly

playing a mage but the way everyone behaves in that range indicates that content is just too easy

[latent copper]

Yeah but honestly when u play assa low key it feels rly clunky…when key go higher its going on better and better

[rotund oak]

yeah because u get the value out of the specs profile

[latent copper]

Yes

[analog field]

Yeah I mean the spec is what it is

[rotund oak]

cant rly bleed out something that dies instantly can u

[analog field]

ramping specs are like this

it is not clunky

it is that you need time to do dmg

[strange onyx]

Biggest point to improve

Learn to enter the flow state where you use 0 brain power on rotation

then you can take in all the other information

[latent copper]

I love the spec but shines when u can or wanna play higher keys….pugging is hard…noone see potential of assa only that meta slave grps

And assa with 0.4% very less players 😂

[analog field]

play what you like

simple as that

[latent copper]

Yeah thats why i play assa and fire mage 😂 off meta enjoyer

[strange onyx]

I play sword assa

its really fun

[analog field]

thought you were doing fistrunning

I am disappointed in you

[strange onyx]

You use this sword that looks like a dagger. So you play outlaw for a key then put on the wrong weapon once you go back to assa and can only do FoK for combo points

[rotund oak]

fire mage riot on forums

kinda cringe but ye why play fire

[warm vortex]

Fire mage seems insane atm

In keys at least from the ones i've seen ngl

[oak ember]

is improved garrote still worth it with the snapshotting bugfix?

[shut sand]

if u run 2pc bonus yet, if 4 pc or no pc

its less worth

still worth though unless ur in a raid and its PURE st like no adds or cleave at all

[oak ember]

ok ty

[shut sand]

at that point though u can STILL take improved garrote

[velvet vault]

!ui

[prisma monolith]

Resources:

• ArcUI - Common UI Replacement
  BetterCDM - Enhancements to the Cooldown Manager
• MSUF - Common Unit Frame replacement
• Platynator - Recommended Nameplate Addon (Plater is not recommended)
  (Jundies Profile)
  (Whispyr's Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - Poison Reminder
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator and cursor replacement

[shut sand]

if its ultra pure ST but u have to get rid of Crimson TEmpest

I have a couple builds ill screenshot

My main build for raiding, standard. Getting most of the valuable aoe talents without sacrificing much ST

My raid "cleave build" the point here is to not use mute as ur main cp generator most of the time, unless its 1-2 boss targets.

Rupture here will do most of ur dmg

and use FoK for cp gen

good for vanguards fight

[jolly heath]

So in aoe, when you refresh rupture but your garrote is something like 10 more second left, would you just garrote then CT to refresh both?

[shut sand]

yes

My m+ build, similiar to the one u see on wowhead

good for trash pack fights

My PURE st build, good on fightrs where you won't see any adds

nor cleave

Same pure ST build but with CT

good for crowns for example when they spawn adds

[strange onyx]

Maybe caustic spatter could be good?

[shut sand]

the idea is not to focus the adds, u want them to reach the bosses in p1 before exploding, so they die while i focus boss, CT helps them die just a bit quicker and u get energy back from spreading bleeds to adds if they die with a lot of thee bleeds left on them

[strange onyx]

oh

havent done the fight

seems smart

[shut sand]

its a pure ST fight literally

on both phase 1 2 and 3

i beat it on heroic

[analog field]

I don't think there is a fight where you don't take blindside at the moment

[shut sand]

paladins

[strange onyx]

dragons and paladins

[analog field]

you get 0 energy now

[shut sand]

wdym

[analog field]

I don't think you don't play blindside in dragons

1 energy per sec left

Venomous wounds is ultra bad now

[shut sand]

its not

its a lot of energy for 5-6 adds

[strange onyx]

i dunno

havent done the fight yet on hc

[shut sand]

if u got 20+ sec ruptures on 4-5 adds

u basicallyt cast that CT for free

and it gave u bunch of cp

[analog field]

but the energy you have wasted is much more

[shut sand]

no its not

[analog field]

to press ct

[shut sand]

no?

[analog field]

you want the big add to dir

die*

[shut sand]

yes

ofc

[strange onyx]

which big add?

[analog field]

small ones don't matter

[shut sand]

yes they do

[analog field]

in crown

[shut sand]

they explode on the boss

[strange onyx]

oh

i havent done that yet

[analog field]

yeah not the assa role to do that

[runic hinge]

how come my character just threw a sbs when i pressed rupture

[shut sand]

at the end when the last boss is about to die u wanna kill of the last adds asap to blow up the boss to start p2

otherwise ur always focusing the boss

[shut sand]

u do it for energy and cp

i even use FoK on them when im not spreading bleeds on them

it just depends how many there are

[strange onyx]

should we fok on crown?

[shut sand]

if its 4-5 of them u should always CT if u got long rupture left

and u should FoK

[analog field]

Whispyr didn't even take ct

xd

[strange onyx]

How do I know if I got long left on rupture?

[shut sand]

I didnt take ct as well at crowns, but I switched to CT due to preference

ur point?

both are solid

Doomblade doesnt add u much dmg

[analog field]

I mean you can take ct but not taking blindside where all that matters is ST dmg is kinda troll

The whole fight is the p3

[shut sand]

I did take blindside tho

[analog field]

in heroic

[shut sand]

I always take ambush spec in st

[strange onyx]

havent done the fight on hc

[analog field]

Yeah I mean P1 in heroic is w/e

We have specs that specialise in nuking small adds

[shut sand]

look, in P2, CT is good cuz of the adds that are spawned, u dont have to interrupt them if u can just dps them down instead, as long as their shields are down theyll die before they get many casts of

u keep pumping the boss while spreading bleeds

and leeting the dks grip them towards the boss for arrows

[analog field]

But is dmg that you don't care about

the adds will die by passive cleave

If you want the meters to be higher yeah I agree

but for the fight CTing adds in P2 is wasted energy

[shut sand]

yes but if u kill them faster ur group doesnt have to use a much defensives that cost gcds/energy

[analog field]

Arrows come at the same time usually as they die

Most of the time you can't kill them faster

[shut sand]

most people wipe in p2 cuz they dont clear the adds properly

thats not true in a pug group

[analog field]

what pug group

[shut sand]

I've pugged heroic crowns

[analog field]

We are discussing about a strategy in a fight

[shut sand]

yes

[analog field]

strategy and pug is 2 different things

[shut sand]

and I'm telling u CT is useful on p1 and p2

its only p3 where u dont have use of it

[analog field]

In pugs nothing matters

We are talking about the best talents in a coordinated group

[shut sand]

wdym in pugs nothing matters?

[analog field]

it is random

There are no assigned roles and ideas

Everyone does what thinks is best

[shut sand]

brother if ur talking about best talents for a best case scenario top 1 ultra strat/bug abusing raiding group

then none of these builds are the best builds

so "best" is irrelevant here

[analog field]

no bug abusing

a normal raid run

[shut sand]

none of ya'll play in world first raiding teams

[analog field]

with your guild

[shut sand]

a normal raid run aint min max spec

u wouldnt get the most out of one in a normal raid

[analog field]

I don't understand the argument about pug. Raiding is done better with a team

[shut sand]

in a dream perfect scenari yes I would go doomblade in crowns

[analog field]

saying I can talent whatever I want is true

but CT is not better

[shut sand]

most raiding guilds are pug quality

[runic hinge]

are they?

[shut sand]

yes

how many beat crowns on HC within 5 attempts?

give me a number

[analog field]

wtf why 5 is normal

[shut sand]

probably like less than 1% of guilds

cuz a top raiding guild could beat it on their 1-2nd attempt

[analog field]

liquid wiped 10 times

[runic hinge]

[analog field]

a ce guild is a good guild

[shut sand]

liquid does attempts before any other guild has tried it, before any guides are out or before tuning is out or before ppl have gotten 270+ ilvl across all players

[analog field]

yes they are far apart from liquid

[shut sand]

u cant compare week 1 shit vs week 4

[analog field]

but doesn't mean they are not coordinated

[analog field]

but we are in week 2.5

[shut sand]

we are week 4 of this xpack no?

[runic hinge]

must be pug quality if they wiped 10 times tbh

[shut sand]

they are also going for time not for guaranteed clear btw, means they focus less on using defensives

its who gets the title first the fastest

[runic hinge]

[boreal lichen]

do we still play with improved garrote and razor wire talents even afetr garrots snapshot fix ? or is it just straight up better in raids ?

[shut sand]

why u laughing?

are they not a speedrunning guild?

theyre competing for WF race no?

time matters

[runic hinge]

do you think they dont optimize strategy to be first?

[analog field]

liquid don't care about heroic bro

[runic hinge]

like

[analog field]

wtf

[shut sand]

sow ahts ur point of ur argument then

if it took them 10 tries?

theyre doing mythic

[runic hinge]

you think they dont care about defensives because theyre trying to be first?

[shut sand]

literally yes

[earnest imp]

wut

[shut sand]

if they can get away with not using a defensive gcd

theyll do it

u think they wont?

[runic hinge]

they'll plan that LOL

they arent just winging it

[shut sand]

well shit doesnt always go according to plans

[runic hinge]

ok

[shut sand]

yes but when ur trying to play optimally ur also not playing the safest

[runic hinge]

imp garrote is better, the thing with the snapshot was it would only get the buffs of your pot and trinket if you cast it again so you were casting it to get the damage you would miss because it wasnt updating dynamically, now it does update so its still good to use and you dont have to do cringe stuff

[analog field]

what you are saying is completely off. These guys press all their buttons as efficiently as possible.

It is not about speedrunning

dmg Vs efficiency

If I just press feint on cd I am losing energy for my dmg

[shut sand]

its not just mechanics

they time their runs as well

[analog field]

they don't care bro

they don't care about killing the boss in 2 min instead 2:30

[covert jewel]

ngl feels like ur talking to a wall

[shut sand]

brother

[static glacier]

just to be clear

[shut sand]

when boss is 1% and u wipe

[static glacier]

survival is a matter of meeting the threshold for living

[shut sand]

those 10 seconds faster clear

would have mattered

[static glacier]

if they can live they won't press excess stuff

but they will press shit to ensure they don't risk death

[shut sand]

what i've been trying to tell these fkers 20 times

[analog field]

everyone should do this

and everyone tries to do it

This is the game

[shut sand]

yes and sometimes u miscalculate and greed

[runic hinge]

that wasnt the discussion tho

[static glacier]

nah, people just don't press defensives xd

[shut sand]

this can cause wipes

[analog field]

yeah but they dont

[runic hinge]

you said that any guild who wipes more than 5 times is pug level

[analog field]

They don't greed a cast of they don't need to

[static glacier]

what boss?

[runic hinge]

and liquid wiped 10 times

[static glacier]

and when are they trying it

[runic hinge]

crown aotc

[shut sand]

ok then I ask

[static glacier]

LMAO

[shut sand]

if ur doing hc crown right

whats the expected wipes?

[runic hinge]

im just repeating what he said

[ocean ore]

hey all boys!!

[static glacier]

bro just getting ur 20 people to understand what is happening

[shut sand]

no no

[static glacier]

takes pulls

[shut sand]

indulge me

[analog field]

30 pulla

[shut sand]

if im doing hc cornws right now

how many pulls we doing?

[analog field]

in week1-2

[shut sand]

in a good guild

[static glacier]

now much less, week 1 it took quite a few

[shut sand]

coordinated guild

[analog field]

a good guild takes 20 pulls for sure

[ocean ore]

is assin taking the place of sub in m+? seeing a few assassins timing high keys

[static glacier]

my guild took like 20ish pulls or so?

[shut sand]

that is legit pug level

pugs clear in 20 pulls

[static glacier]

we had wipes at like 1-3% bc we lost people and lacked the dps

[analog field]

you are delusional

[static glacier]

I think we need to really anchor when we're talking

[analog field]

You have pugs that have played the boss 2 weeks now

[static glacier]

atm with current gear and people knowing tacts

yes it wont need a lot of pulls

[shut sand]

my pug cleared it the same night

[static glacier]

but before?

[shut sand]

we started doing it

[static glacier]

we lost people to the dumbest shit

[analog field]

How do you know ?

that none of them have tried the fight

[static glacier]

did you clear it week 1 early?

[shut sand]

no

i didnt

[covert jewel]

apply to method or smth

[static glacier]

we killed it our 2nd raidnight, first was getting to it and clearing everything n / hc

[covert jewel]

like make your point or idk

[static glacier]

just getting people on the same page about which adds to hit with arrow in p1

getting them hitting and kicking the adds in p2

having people get used to what timers their cds follow for the fight

all these things can take a few pulls even for coordinated groups

[shut sand]

look the original discussion was that this dude said we are looking at builds that are best in a perfect scenario with a coordinated guild, "pug" builds for rogues doesnt amtter

[static glacier]

people walked into the fight with 0 idea

you need to remember that

[shut sand]

and I toild him legit that very few guilds are at the most optimal level where u could make use of the min maxed build

[static glacier]

it was a tight-ish dps check

before we got geared

[shut sand]

cuz theyre pug level

casual

even if theyre coordinated

[static glacier]

brother my guild is like 170 atm

that's not pug casual level

[shut sand]

to prove it I asked how many pulls to consider it a coordinated guild

[static glacier]

they benched a lot of melee for mythic

[covert jewel]

thank god we have a metric now to judge guilds

invaluable

[runic hinge]

yeah im not gonna play suboptimal talents while i wait for my ranged to get their shit together lol

[static glacier]

they are optimising, please don't downplay how much effort is being put in

[shut sand]

I said 5, cuz a top raiding guild could clear it in 1-2 tries

then he references liquid but they clared it week 1 with less gear

[static glacier]

I think your view of "top" raiding guild is VERY skewed

[shut sand]

so 10 wips is understandeable

[static glacier]

can you just say rwf guild instead

[shut sand]

a good guild at this point

[static glacier]

a lot of HoF guilds don't fit your definition

[shut sand]

this far into the game

[static glacier]

and they're by definition good?

[shut sand]

shouldnt need 20 wipes

thats pug level

a pug can clear it in 20 wipes

[static glacier]

at this point yeah

it's been a few weeks

it takes like 1-2 pulls

[primal parrot]

id like to partake in this discussion
is there a tldr?

[static glacier]

for a group that's done it before

[shut sand]

yeah that was my entire point

that by now a decent guild should need 5 pulls

[static glacier]

so your point is people can reclear the boss, it's not rough to reclear?

[shut sand]

otherwise theyre not clearing it faster than pugs this far into the game

[static glacier]

sure, I agree it's not hard to reclear for a hc boss

gallywix felt harder on hc in early reclears

ansurek deffo did

and i'd also say dimmy was too

[analog field]

I said in week 1

maybe week 2

[static glacier]

thing is this entire expac seems easier in a sense

in week 1 nah it was hard

[analog field]

ofc as time passes it is easier

[static glacier]

let's be real

[shut sand]

so idk what this whole thing about "pug" specs not being a thing when his idea of a coordinated guild is 20 pulls

bro thats pug level

run a pug spec at that point

[static glacier]

you're mixing up timelines

vov is speaking about week 1

first kill

you're talking reclear

[shut sand]

no he wasnt at that point

[static glacier]

get on the same page

[shut sand]

we never mentioned week 1

[static glacier]

both of you

he seems to be consistently talking about week 1

[shut sand]

he brought that up later with team liquid

[static glacier]

from when I joined

[shut sand]

naaah, I was talking about the present the entire start of the convo

[static glacier]

well it's puggable

idk what else to say

[shut sand]

the convo started before that

[shut sand]

100% puggable

[static glacier]

I feel like you're kinda stating the obvious?

[analog field]

The convo was don't take ct as your role is not to pad adds

and you said in pugs

you need to do it

and I said who cares about pugs

[primal parrot]

on which boss even

[shut sand]

I said grab it for p1 and p2, cuz the adds in p1 gives u energy back

[static glacier]

crown

[shut sand]

u get 4-5 cps from a CT and a bunch of energy

that fuels ur envenoms

[runic hinge]

energy refund is so minimal now

[static glacier]

honestly I think it's a preference thing, if your group struggles with add DAMAGE that's a matter of people not actually trying to aoe, I would argue ct isn't mandatory or needed, i've only ever killed it in guild groups though so take my point with some salt

[analog field]

Yeah ofc but i didn't even imagine we are talking about pug groups

when you are saying what is the best build

[static glacier]

tbh with you

[analog field]

you don't think it in a pug context

[static glacier]

it's just a sub angle

[primal parrot]

idd its in feelycraft territory

[static glacier]

the timers work out better imo

[shut sand]

in my pug runs the adds dont get blasted, so I have time to gather 5-6 of them sometimes