assassination

[keen raven]

but it legit might be 1 of the only specs in the game

[kindred cipher]

i played enhance in s3 tww. i had to jump through hoops to do damage. but it was never reliant on anyone else. my stack/cd management was on me. i didnt have to have a tank that was okay with playing around me, cuz i could play around the tank

[keen raven]

where u dont press anythjing for like 2-3 seconds sometimes

[waxen oyster]

not sure whats wrong

with afking

[dry turret]

That being said let's light a candle for our Arms W bretheren.

[golden loom]

Resources should matter to some extent otherwise why have them

[waxen oyster]

lmao assa entirety of tww

had infinite energy

xddd

[keen raven]

they made rogue boomer 45year old dad energy

[wanton tangle]

waiting around for energy FEELS BAD

[keen raven]

this

[wanton tangle]

just let me press buttons

[keen raven]

almost every other class has filler stuff

[golden loom]

Idk I only did 5 m0's on assa this week and the energy situation felt very similar to tww, and thats in m+ build

[waxen oyster]

play outlaw

where energy is fake

or well was

[keen raven]

ye and then go into raid where u dont do dmg for 20secs

and now ur dogshit

sick design

[waxen oyster]

sounds like sub in s3

between flag windows

[golden loom]

I mean a lot of specs are built around 20-40-60 second timers

[waxen oyster]

mfo sub was the definition of

[golden loom]

Does frost dk do any damage outside of pillar? Hell no

[waxen oyster]

do nothing in downtime

just made up for that by being a nuke for 20

per 90s cds

[keen raven]

ye but u still press buttons

[golden loom]

Cds up in 20 sec? Time to backstab only

[keen raven]

oln rogue u sit there with ur dick in ur hand

[waxen oyster]

backstab is generous

sometimes aa'ing was better

to preserve stech

[golden loom]

I hecking love pressing 0 impact buttons just to press buttons

[waxen oyster]

lets go back to sl sub

where you had infinite dance

and none of them did dick for damage

[golden loom]

And thats not the case for assa, you are still perma pressing buttons

[marble hemlock]

theres few things the entire wow community can collectively agree on, but one of those few things, is that rogue is single handedly the worst class to level. by far.

[waxen oyster]

people need to stop looking at general class played

because that includes casuals who level only

maybe quest for loremaster

and rogue sucks at solo content

[dry turret]

@marble hemlock true however i can't see myself maining something else.

[keen raven]

Wow has been the best when its been the sweatiest

[waxen oyster]

Its like the only melee that doesnt have a self heal

on mob kills

[keen raven]

when everything feels insane/expressive is when its the most fun

[keen raven]

watchu mean i love pulling 2-3 mobs and almost dying

[golden loom]

There isnt even any content out yet for this expac

[marble hemlock]

its visible in the amount of max level rogues, to the amount of people who actually started a rogue.

https://i.imgur.com/Eqk1RNV.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/b6mGPOF.jpeg

its quite obvious that many people start playing a rogue, but dont reach max level on it for one reason or another.

[waxen oyster]

you can be sweaty blud

join a guild that does 10 splits

[keen raven]

Content doesnt change how the specs play

specs play like dooky dogshit rn

playing more does not mean more sweaty/skill expression

[golden loom]

Well we can agree to disagree I guess

[marble hemlock]

moving VW deeper into the tree again is a mindboggling decision in terms of leveling gameplay

[waxen oyster]

it means sweaty

[marble hemlock]

anybody leveling a new rogue from level 1 has my deepest sympathies, and i cant blame anyone for not finishing it, switching to a new class instead and having 5x as much fun with it

[dry turret]

@keen raven this is very subjective. Probably not all players were able to play at that level but from a numbers perspective i think it's more oriented around how many players they can keep in the game rather than how fun the game is for group of people that enjoy the tryhard scenarios.

[marble hemlock]

rogue tends to be well represented at the highest level of play

[waxen oyster]

you dont have energy while leveling

and if you pull multiple elites

you gonna get clapped

[keen raven]

Issue is you when you cater to casual gaming you kill the game

[marble hemlock]

every guild usually has at least 1, sometimes 2. but go into a normal or heroic pug raid or do some lower-level keys, and there is no yellow to be seen

[keen raven]

when you make everything simplified and easier you kill your core diehard long term players that make the game what it is

wow has always been the mmo that has a lot of expression

plus they added the fucking 1 button rotation lmao

if ur braindead just use that

dont gut all skill expression

[dry turret]

That is directed for consoles for sure.

[keen raven]

ud be shocked how many people use it

[waxen oyster]

yeah most of the playerbase doesnt raid

[keen raven]

even with rotations/expression being dead

[golden loom]

This is just false tho

[marble hemlock]

its a great crutch when you start out, and many people who arent interested in doing higher level content, are totally content and fine using it

and its existence doesnt affect higher-level players at all

[dry turret]

Totally agree.

[waxen oyster]

can you really rant all day about skill expression

[keen raven]

comparatively to previous tiers/xpacs it isnt

[runic hinge]

Wow is mostly casuals.

[waxen oyster]

unless you're one of those people that are consistent 99ers

[marble hemlock]

well yeah. its an expansion that is supposed to cut down on a lot of things, to create a new baseline for them to work with. then we'll get new stuff again over the next couple of patches or in the next expansion, until they do another pruning in 3-5years

thats kind of how wow works

[keen raven]

Yea but you have to understand from a development standpoint why 90% of people enjoy gaming and its the pursuit of learning/getting better/having fun

[marble hemlock]

get new shit over the course of 2-3 expansions, pruning happens, new baseline is established, rinse repeat

[keen raven]

if ur rotation is fucking 2 buttons and straight forward

ur gonna lose interest

[dry turret]

Let's try to stay on a positive not. From my previous experience as a rogue we have always found a way to make it work and have been somewhat competitive.
Yes maybe not on RWF scenario but it has been that we could make the class work despite being in the gutters so many times.

[keen raven]

i mean a spec of rogue will be viable, its not ab being viable tho

its about the feel of the class

as some1 whos a multi r1 parser/glad/hero/puished rogue to the highest lvls

the class feels so bad

[marble hemlock]

that is one hell of a false headcanon youre having. the vast majority of players dont give the slightest shit about "getting better". they come home from a long workday or taking care of family, to sit down and relax. if a game requires them to think and "improve", its likely not very successful.

why do you think all these cozy and comfy games see such success?

[keen raven]

they see short lived success

[waxen oyster]

theres a reason classic is popular

its not about difficulty

[marble hemlock]

for most players, gaming is a hobby and entertainment, not a competition.

[dry turret]

@keen raven sadly you can't make everyone happy. There is always gonna be someone that won't enjoy it.

[waxen oyster]

so did wildstar

[marble hemlock]

thats totally understandable. but the game just isnt designed for people playing at that level, never has been. even in what you might consider "glory days", the game never aimed to satisfy or cater towards high-end raiders, pvpers, or m+ers

if it did, it was a happy accident, nothing more

[waxen oyster]

also what the heck is r1 parser is that supposed to be just consistent top on allstars

seli was highest assa before assa was cool

in keys

[marble hemlock]

yeah. people raiding in guilds that do speedkills in farm and stuff

[keen raven]

it means setting the top dmg parse on warcraft logs for the spec

ie if theres 20k rogues

ur the #1 dmg log

[waxen oyster]

well yeah would imply top on allstars

i assume and not just 1 time on a pad boss

[golden loom]

I like that the prepatch is what locked in the allstar rank on the profile

[waxen oyster]

was worse with fated

[marble hemlock]

personally im incredibly disappointed with the direction the assa design has taken in the last couple of years, compared to when i spammed the game 14hrs a day cause i had so much fun playing assa in random keys.

but i also recognize the game was never meant to be fun for me, because i am not the target audience, and things i really liked about the game in terms of skill expression or highly interesting moment-to-moment gameplay, was part of the reason why rogue is so underrepresented and just "not fun" to many players

[keen raven]

Point is u can keep class design simple but add expression to squeeze out more from the class, and thats how its always been

now the gap between expression and #s is the greatest its been

[cloud dune]

It's not about how many buttons you have, it's about how you use them 😉

[keen raven]

Well when u have 2 buttons and the rotation is legit pressing them back in forth

there isnt really much expression

XD

rogue feels like frost mage classic wow

[marble hemlock]

no, you cant. and its not always been like that. every time a class had high levels of skill expression, it ended up feeling awkward or bad to players who werent engaging in that kind of min-maxing.

at the end of the day, the game is tuned around normal/heroic raiding, and if you have high skill expression outliers at the top end, that creates an incredible imbalance as they suddenly perform significantly higher than classes with lower levels of skill expression

[keen raven]

frostbolt frostbolt frostbolt

[cloud dune]

Imagine having to press buttons to do damage
Couldn't be ret

[marble hemlock]

which people also complain about

[waxen oyster]

I mean

IC made assa way easier

for the vast majority of players

etc

[marble hemlock]

ye, IC was a big mistake in my mind, but it was obvious how many more people suddenly enjoyed assa in aoe

[keen raven]

90% of the tuning is made around mythic this just isnt true

[marble hemlock]

the spec was better for it, even though it removed a lot of the melee multidotting gameplay i loved about it

[waxen oyster]

its very telling when alot of people act like

[keen raven]

plus they continously change and adjust bosses so that more casual people as the season goes on get it cleared

[waxen oyster]

you cant multidot without restealth

[keen raven]

clearing a mythic boss in a top 50 guild vs top 10000 is like fighting an entirely different boss

but by doing so ur catering to both niches

both people who enjoy harder content and people who want to experience it casually

[wise plover]

im at the point tho, where why does CT even exist. feels so weird. id rather just FoK spread bleeds, or give is IC on a CD button.

[dry turret]

It feels incomplete now. At least compared to other classes. Asa just feels like you're putting in the effort in an m+ scenario but missing the reward.

[runic hinge]

And clearing mythic at all is like 1% of the player base. That’s not catering to casuals lol

[waxen oyster]

Idk amirdrassil rework made assa super simple

for the average m+ joe

sd removes thinking about refreshing bleeds

IC handholds multidotting

if anything outlaw got smacked harder

[keen raven]

again same core issue

less expression

[waxen oyster]

losing their roll buffs

[cloud dune]

IC?

[marble hemlock]

idk where youre getting any of these numbers from, but if you think blizzard is balancing their game around content that only less than a percent of players engage with, then idk what to tell you. its a basic of game design that you dont tune around top-level play.

wow has historically been tuned around heroic and low-level mythic raiding, not HoF or CE level players

[waxen oyster]

outlaw itself never had alot of buttons

you just had to respond very quickly

[keen raven]

Im stating they cater it to every party

with balancing/nerfs of content they can cater to all individuals

gutting a classes expression caters to nobody

[marble hemlock]

they try to, but thats obviously an impossible goal, and the biggest chunk of the playerbase lies in the lower echelons, not CE raid clearers

[keen raven]

its not an impossible goal

they do it every tier

[runic hinge]

How long have you played wow? This isn’t the first time they’ve pruned classes

[marble hemlock]

yes it does. it levels the playing field between top performers and more casual players, while simultaneously setting the stage for making new attempts at creating interesting gameplay improvements. you have to prune before engaging in that.

am i a fan of that? not necessarily. but thats kinda just how that works, and has always worked.

[waxen oyster]

i mean one can argue they super simplified sub

when dust got removed

[marble hemlock]

its also one of the hardest specs to get into as a new player as a result

0.8sec GCD and its highly reactive gameplay

[waxen oyster]

yeah outlaw alot of people just say

[marble hemlock]

are one of the main reasons its a super unpopular spec

[waxen oyster]

spam sinister dispatch

[marble hemlock]

some people absolutely love it, and im happy for them

[waxen oyster]

the general playerbase doesnt understand why outlaw was harder

[spice sentinel]

i feel like almost anybody i talk to that played rogue at some point loves outlaw way more than the other specs

and they always ask me how its doing lol

[waxen oyster]

not really outlaw is the most polarizing spec

of the class

[marble hemlock]

but its been holding the spec back for years. sadly any change towards making the spec even a little bit more accessible, is met with people in the outlaw community completely crashing out

[dapper halo]

so, did blizz really fuck us over and not touch assa at all

[keen raven]

dumpster bin spec

asa dev quit

they said budget too low we focus on other classes now

[spice sentinel]

you say that, i say the opposite, it's all anecdotal, i think it really just depends on when people played it last and what they enjoyed playing

[marble hemlock]

no changes. maybe with mythic, maybe not. hard to say where we land in raid based on encounter design and other criteria.

[midnight mist]

I mean im of the opinion that its healthy to have some specs be harder/more involved etc

[waxen oyster]

theres people that love and hate it

[dapper halo]

da fug? but were way undertuned

[rigid tartan]

Really? Who was it?

[waxen oyster]

hence polarizing

[midnight mist]

dont think its neccesseraly bad to have some specs be less popular cause of that

[dry turret]

the same person that tunes DH does the tuning for Rogues also.

[keen raven]

was ajoke

[marble hemlock]

generally i agree. i think outlaws issue specifically, is that the game just kinda isnt built for having .8sec GCD. theres a reason most classes start with a 1.5sec one, and outlaw would do fine just sticking to a 1sec one and still stay interesting.

[balmy condor]

yes, the one solo guy

[dry turret]

Yep

[balmy condor]

the one man in charge of tuning

[midnight mist]

do you mean for lag and stuff?

cause idk i dont really see the issue

[marble hemlock]

and his name is john blizzard

[waxen oyster]

if anything i feel outlaw took a fatter oversimplification

than sub

[lethal turtle]

did sin get buffed

[waxen oyster]

and assa not as much

[dry turret]

We go the paladin way and nuke the discord now ?

[marble hemlock]

yeah. people also just generally dont like super high apm gameplay in an MMO. wow is a bit of an outlier there. theres a few pvp-centric games that have interesting combat gameplay with high apm, but for a pve-based MMO, its a bit odd.

[dapper halo]

damn, i mean, i was expecting to get us some actual buffs, instead we get backstabbed, lol

[keen raven]

yea in 3 patches from now

[waxen oyster]

people acting like assa isnt randomly gonna get aura buffed

mid tier

like it always has

[marble hemlock]

or we just chill out a bit and remember that this isnt the first time assa looked kinda meh going into the tier, and then ended up still being the go-to choice, or at least serviceable, for the vast majority of players

[keen raven]

100%

prob will be an execute fight

and itl be strong

[midnight mist]

idk as long as you get procs when you press buttons (which is the case unless they fuck up things) i have never had issues with lag, even when playing on ptr with 180 ms etc
I dont htink its bad to have some specs be high apm tho

[keen raven]

XD

[midnight mist]

i chose outlaw for that mostly

and thats what attract me to games usually

[marble hemlock]

rogue is still immortal in raid. assa still has an incredibly strong damage profile.

[waxen oyster]

i literally went into tww because i figured it would be an assa tier

[midnight mist]

like in league i chose the same type of champions aswell

high apm things

[waxen oyster]

esp with spatter

in its old tuning

[dry turret]

Honestly i still believe that once mythic hits assa will be the go to for single target ( just call it a gut feeling ).

[golden loom]

Zac the ezreal otp

[marble hemlock]

anybody saying they "know" that assa is gonna be good/bad right now, is just coping or lying.

[waxen oyster]

spatter in its amirdrassil and tww tuning

[marble hemlock]

we can make estimated guesses, thats all

[waxen oyster]

was just so strong in raid

[midnight mist]

no that kind of apm, i like hyper carry adcs that auto attack fast, so you need to kite super quick

[waxen oyster]

when was the last time rogue was fr bin

besides maybe cn

[twin ermine]

Dude, Full attack speed on hit Ashe was my shit back in the day.

[marble hemlock]

zac, im sure ive told you this before, but you are not the regular wow player.
the regular wow player is someone who probably isnt even pressing buttons every second, even though they can. it sucks because it means the game likely will never be catering to your gameplay feel and wishes, but thats just how it is.

[golden loom]

Zac IRL the twitch otp

[midnight mist]

i mean i agree but

there is like

50 specs in the game

surely you can have things for everyone no ?

[waxen oyster]

i remember log reviewing havoc in legion

[midnight mist]

thats the point

[waxen oyster]

and 90% of the time the biggest mistake was

not spamming chaos strike enough

[marble hemlock]

i adored the legion/early BFA assa which had to multidot perfectly, constantly be doing math on the mob count and TOD of the pack, to decide what GCD to use in any given moment. it was heaven for me.

i was also the only one playing assa at a high level, because everyone else just played outlaw that did the same results, but without braincells required.

[waxen oyster]

also case in point

most tank players

show high apm and average wow player

xdddd

[marble hemlock]

it wasnt healthy for the game/spec that assa was that hard/had such high skill expression

so sometimes we gotta take one for the team

[waxen oyster]

also

pre legion ww

i remember how apparently alot of people couldnt read tooltips

to understand sef was a dps loss on st

[marble hemlock]

imo the problem with this is that oyu still want those high skill expression specs to do reasonably well at a lower level. a high skill expression class either can somewhat compete at the top-level, but then it MUST be dogshit at the lower levels, or it does well at the lower levels, but its high skill expression then lets it completely outperform everyone at the top-end.

both are shit for the game.

[dapper halo]

man, i saw whispyrs video and i was like omg were gonna get so buffed and nope, well done dude, now im just sadge :<

[waxen oyster]

i aint even going into the degen shit of hfc monk

like nitrofueling yourself near a campfire on pull

to karma boss in opener

[marble hemlock]

ideally you have small skill expression things that barely impact the overall performance output, like the sepsis shit in SL/DF

[midnight mist]

i mean idk why you need that tho, imma talk about league again but some champs are just hard champs and they arent played by people that dont want to bother

[waxen oyster]

and like there was some super sweaty shit

lke stam flasking for karma

[marble hemlock]

but those are very rare, and skill expression that barely feels worth the effort isnt really what people want either i think

[midnight mist]

and i dont think thats bad

[waxen oyster]

then agi after

[midnight mist]

its just how it is

[marble hemlock]

league is a pvp game

[midnight mist]

i mean

so what

• wow is also a pvp game its just not directly pvp

but to me raiding and m+ is also against players

its just indirect

[marble hemlock]

if most classes have a performance gap of ~15-20% between regular play and minmax top-end skill expression play, and another spec has 40%, then that spec cannot be both balanced in mid-level play and top-end play. itll either be unplayable at mid-level, or completely busted at top-level (see surrender to madness in Legion)

[midnight mist]

or idk what you mean by its a pvp game

[waxen oyster]

see mages in wow pvp

for the longest time

[midnight mist]

but i dont get how that is so problematic tho

[waxen oyster]

mage at more casual levels of pvp is super underplayed

yet its always been near the top of tournament and ladder play

[marble hemlock]

having a champ in league or a hero in dota just be harder, is fine, because theres a lot of choice, you play a 30min session at a time, and you can just swap to smth different or have 20 other choices for the same role.

none of those are the case in wow.

[marble hemlock]

how what is problematic?

that a spec is completely broken if played very well, while no other spec has that level of skill expression? have you played legion with stm priests?

or sub in cata

[midnight mist]

having some specs be less viable at lower end skill

no

[waxen oyster]

stm spriest in en was

basically another class

[bleak sedge]

League also doesn't reward you for learning a harder champ. For some of them it's the opposite

[waxen oyster]

at the top end

[midnight mist]

we all know they dont tune specs to be better when played better

i dont think thats needed

[marble hemlock]

because then no one plays that spec other than a handful of minmaxers. and if no one plays that spec other than that, why would blizzard spend any amount of effort into regularly tuning and balancing it, if 0.0001% of players play it?

when they could instead tune specs that 2% or 5% of players play

[midnight mist]

idk they do it in league

[wise plover]

I come from league first as well and i tend to agree with zac

[marble hemlock]

this isnt league man

[bleak sedge]

Yea they nerf azir lmao

[marble hemlock]

its like comparing apples and world war 2 tanks

[midnight mist]

i mean its not wow classic either lol

you queue up keys like it was leauge games idk xd

[waxen oyster]

i miss oldschool league

when playing teemo got you called slurs

/s

[bleak sedge]

But giving an aura buff isn't effort they could've definetly done that

[marble hemlock]

100%

but aura buffs should always be a last resort, in my mind

[bleak sedge]

Well if they do nothing otherwise then they are at last resort

[marble hemlock]

odds are blizz just went "we could do the easy way out and aura buff, or we keep it for later". if no one plays the spec anyway, that is typically worth doing (which is why having no one play a spec is a very bad thing)

its a 3-spec class

[waxen oyster]

unholy being nerfed 20%

[marble hemlock]

as long as 1 spec is playable, things are a-okay generally speaking

[waxen oyster]

nice design

[bleak sedge]

But assa has been most played rogue spec for a long time. It doesn't make sense to ignore it now

[marble hemlock]

rogue is the only multi-spec DPS class where people are so insistent that their spec HAS to be playable, instead of just swapping to another one. ive rarely if ever seen conversations like that for warlock or mage.

onetricks exist there too, ofc, but the rogue spec-one-tricking is significantly higher

[waxen oyster]

most mage or lock players i see

just go with tuning

[marble hemlock]

depends on the viewpoint, no? you could also say it makes the perfect sense to finally stop holding assa up as the go-to raiding spec, when both outlaw and sub have suffered under that line of thinking for the last 10 or so years

[elfin flame]

is it possible to envenom before your rank 3 implacable finishes applying combo points

so like u envenom and 1-2 combo points carry over to the next finisher

[balmy condor]

yeh

the lashes aren't on the gcd

[elfin flame]

ahhh cool

[waxen oyster]

if you ask guy every tier has been a sub tier

the last 2 expacs

[marble hemlock]

on one hand you have assa having been the go-to "easy" rogue spec for 10years, and thats been pretty good for assa. its also been pretty shit for outlaw and sub.

[runic hinge]

Probably cause he has ce before the mid tier assa buff

[waxen oyster]

there hasnt been a true outlaw tier

outside of maybe voti

[midnight mist]

cause its been a sub tier for the last 3 expac

[waxen oyster]

ig sire is the last endboss

[marble hemlock]

as a one-trick who has basically never played sub/outalw in the last 10 years unless absolutely necessary (early SL in raids, occasional bossfight where assa sucked monkeydick, mid SL m+), people need to either accept that one-tricking is a bad way to play the game, or stop one-tricking.

[waxen oyster]

i'd consider outlaw better on

[runic hinge]

It’s about to be another

[waxen oyster]

personally

[midnight mist]

i mean tbf

[marble hemlock]

legion did a lot of damage to that

[midnight mist]

there is one tricking

and there is never playing your spec ever

[marble hemlock]

before legion, people almost never considered just onetricking a spec

[midnight mist]

i wouldnt mind if at least the rogue spec changed every tier

or on certain bosses lol

[marble hemlock]

and we got bent over harder than any other class in legion in terms of spec identity (or lack thereof)

[midnight mist]

but its been sub on every boss for litteraly 3 exapc straight now

[marble hemlock]

has it?

[midnight mist]

ye

[marble hemlock]

i didnt raid in MFO, but i was doing perfectly fine as assa in a top 100 guild on a 3-day schedule for the last.... 10 years.

[midnight mist]

tbf assa isnt giga troll like outlaw is :D

but no

its been sub

[marble hemlock]

thats not the point being made tho is it? the point was "its a sub tier", whatever the fuck that means

[cunning needle]

mugzee. last tier also was assi for plexus/loomi/frac

[midnight mist]

well ye

i enter raid and i see that if i play outlaw over sub im trolling my guildmates

and that would be fine if that was sometimes, on certain bosses, every other tier, but it end up the same every tier so

[marble hemlock]

one spec is always gonna be better than the others, the question is how viable/serviceable are the other specs. and unless its absolute bin, like assa was in early SL, people are putting waaaay too much emphasis on spec performance, negating entirely that there is a lot of other reasons to bring a player to a raid that isnt "you do X amount of DPS"

[molten harbor]

I disagree in a way. With Lock I know what the different specs weaknesses and strengths are and have fun playing each of them in their moments. With rogue they all just do the same shit essentially so, to me, it feels like you just get pigeon holed into 1 thing until something else is better

[midnight mist]

ok but you can bring the same player but on the right spec instead, i just see it in a way that if everyone played their troll spec on every boss you would just never kill bosses

of course its fine when its one guy a raid

[marble hemlock]

i tend to agree that assa+sub kind of felt the same for a long time now. but saying outlaw is samey, when its an entirely different damage profile, is not smth id agree with.

[midnight mist]

but then you are just kinda selfish arent you

[marble hemlock]

thats a nice hypothetical, but that never, ever, happens, does it?

[midnight mist]

no but if you do it

why arent others doing it

why are you getting carried

[marble hemlock]

okay but why are we engaging in hypotheticals that never happen. why should blizzard be concerned about hypotheticals that never happen?

[midnight mist]

why are you holding back your team when everyone is swapping spec/classes

to progress faster

and you arent

its not hypotetical

[waxen oyster]

tbh i feel the point is mostly about outlaw

sin and sub are close enough

[marble hemlock]

im sorry to say, but if your progress is stopping because a handful of players are playing slightly worse specs than what they couldve, your raid has bigger issues than the specs they play.

[waxen oyster]

that is not going to matter as bad

[midnight mist]

everyone in your guild is working hard to bring their best spec to each boss to kill the boss faster, or even swapping classes to cover raid buffs etc

and then you just come with a troll spec

[marble hemlock]

says who?

[midnight mist]

what

[haughty flicker]

[marble hemlock]

that *everyone in the guild is wokring hard to bring their best spec"

[midnight mist]

thats just raiding at that level idk what you mean lol

[marble hemlock]

that is not at all the experience of like >99% of players

even top 20 guilds let people play non-ideal specs if theyre just good at it

naenia was doing more than fine on restodruid raiding at the highst level, in one of the highest-skill guilds, even when restodruid was fucking bin

[midnight mist]

i mean you are asking to reroll class there not spec so its a bit different

when i can press a button to stop trolling my raid

[marble hemlock]

my guild had numerous onetricks, and we still did great on a limited schedule, with no splits/alts

[midnight mist]

i mean you understand my point tho so i dont get it xd

[marble hemlock]

theres about a dozen or so ways to contribute to raid progress. one of them is the spec you choose.

[runic hinge]

Gm

[celest drift]

What the hell is Blizzard smoking

[marble hemlock]

someone on a broken spec will be brought by default, sure. someone playing a suboptimal spec may have to do some extra work to provide value to the raid. but more often than not, that other value they bring, whether it is helping with raid prep, strategizing, coordinating or communication, or taking on the shit jobs in a fight so others can pump, are all more critical to success than whatever the fuck DPS you do at the end.

[midnight mist]

eh idk i feel like you are just acting like you dont understand my point lol

its fine

[bleak sedge]

Tbh i don't think thats a scenario blizz should balance around. If the clear is so important to you that your guild starts class swapping (which isn't needed you just get CE later without swapping) then you should swap to optimal classes anyways

[marble hemlock]

and anyone whining about "muh dps" is just a shit raider who thinks their responsibility towards the raid starts and ends with the spec they play.

[thorn thorn]

How does zac keep getting in here

Who keeps letting him escape containment

[cunning needle]

broke through the outlaw containment channel

because there was 0 notes about it

[midnight mist]

there was also 0 notes about assa buddy

[marble hemlock]

maybe i am. or maybe i just view raiding differently than you.

[cunning needle]

yeah but assi is rogue-general

[thorn thorn]

True

[cunning needle]

so it makes sense this is the first place you'd go

[thorn thorn]

Poor sub

[midnight mist]

i just think its selfish

[haughty flicker]

wtf is assi

[midnight mist]

to not go all the way

[thorn thorn]

Catching a random L from tuning

[midnight mist]

when it helps the raid

[cunning needle]

average sub balancing tbh

[waxen oyster]

lets be real sub channel is dead when its not the meta spec

[midnight mist]

unless its like idk, agreed upon

[cunning needle]

b-b-b-b-but it's been a sub tier every tier for the last 3 expansions

[midnight mist]

or kinda everyone is on the same page

[marble hemlock]

ive played with a lot of players who have gone "all the way" to provide value to the raid, and their choice of spec was completely irrelevant at that point.

[thorn thorn]

Ya cuz who wants to play sub when assa is right there

[midnight mist]

that we are all trolling our specs

[cunning needle]

because the tier is defined as the first month of the season and everything after that is just white noise

[marble hemlock]

but theres no guild in the world where everyone is putting in the same amount of effort

[waxen oyster]

let me find the tumbleweeds during lou

[midnight mist]

i mean i can tell you that me playing outlaw on most bosses would have been giga troll compared to sub

[marble hemlock]

okay. and?

[midnight mist]

but maybe im just unlucky with spec

[marble hemlock]

was the boss unkillable because of it?

[midnight mist]

and i feel like i owe the 20 other people i play with to not sandbag the raid and cost us raid nights for free?

[runic hinge]

He wouldn’t know cause he plays Meta

[marble hemlock]

one-tricking a "troll" spec is only a problem, if you dont bring any other value to the raid.

[midnight mist]

because everyone is trying their best

we have people that reroll even classes to cover raid buff

so it doesnt feel right to troll them

[marble hemlock]

seems like you have more of an issue with it, than your guild might have.

thinking your spec-choice defines you as a raider

[midnight mist]

idk if you are just trolling at this point bro

[marble hemlock]

does your guild wanna raid with a rogue player, or with zac?

[haughty flicker]

damn

thats deep

[thorn thorn]

Lets be real who wants a rogue player

[waxen oyster]

tbh that can apply for majority of people

asking what spec for raid

[midnight mist]

idk bro im just getting ragebaited rn

[runic hinge]

I think you’re just raged

[bleak sedge]

Ouch

[molten harbor]

always bring raider, not the class (spec)

[runic hinge]

By no notes

[midnight mist]

you just became dull to trolling your teammates after 20 years of playing with your guild its fine tho

i think its cringe to act like you dont understand my point tho

[waxen oyster]

i will say if you played outlaw on dimi you might enjoy cbt without even getting off on it

[midnight mist]

and trying to rage bait me

[thorn thorn]

Wouldnt be the first time zac goes C9 over outlaw

[marble hemlock]

zac, can i ask you a question?

[midnight mist]

nah im good

[marble hemlock]

whens the last time you changed your mind on something?

[midnight mist]

when im wrong about something

which lets be honest

never happens

[waxen oyster]

at least hes not ross losing an argument to himself

[marble hemlock]

maybe thats the issue then

[runic hinge]

[midnight mist]

ok but why would i change my mind there lol

you are litterlay rage baiting

ignoring my point

[midnight mist]

cause you are fine trolling your teamates

[cunning needle]

just for context, what is your point?

[thorn thorn]

This is a banger

[midnight mist]

idk at this point

been too much yapping

[waxen oyster]

ngl this sounds like a bfa guy take

[cunning needle]

yeah i came in half way

and its gone on a tangent now

[marble hemlock]

from where im standing, im engaging in a converation on the merits of spec-performance vs bringing other things to the table. if you think thats ragebaiting, the issue is you, not me.

but i reckon thats a realization that is entirely incompatible with your view of yourself and your opinions.

[midnight mist]

it was about playing the right spec for a boss, which i think is something you should do because everyone does it and if you dont you are just trolling 20 other people and wasting their time being selfish

[thorn thorn]

Narcissism

[midnight mist]

when to me you can just click a button and instantly win pulls over not doing it

[bleak sedge]

Well if this isn't a reddit discussion lmao

[midnight mist]

and everyone in your raid does it by selecting the right spec, or even class

[marble hemlock]

i mean, ofc you should play a better spec if you can or want to. but its also totally fine if you dont, and blizzard should not be tuning around perfect use of raidcomp.

a specs value isnt defined by whether or not it is considered the "perfect spec" for a boss, its defined by whteher or not it is viable. and anyone claiming "its been a sub tier for 3 expacs" is either willfully ignorant of the reality that many guilds did not have people playing sub, yet still were wildly successful, or is just, as you like to say, trolling.

[midnight mist]

what i dont understand is that, you bring all these things, but you can also go all the way and just click on the respec button ? like everyone in your raid does, so you arent trolling 20 people idk

[cunning needle]

i agree up to a point. depends how big the damage difference is and also what the damage profile requirements are

[midnight mist]

also its been a sub tier for the past 3 expac

[cunning needle]

like if it's 1-2% difference i'm not swapping to assi for that

[midnight mist]

doesnt matter if you played sin every tier lol

[bleak sedge]

I think you are both right for the way you raid. Most guilds do not fail at dps checks though

[cunning needle]

since i'd play it worse than what i'm playing as sub

[marble hemlock]

how many people have you played with who were able to play an off-spec as well as their chosen main spec? because in my experience with the game, that number is close to zero.

[distant plinth]

No assa buffs?

We dead

[bleak sedge]

If they see me play another class than rogue they will beg me to swap back

[golden loom]

I played assa, havoc and fury for manaforge and I was equally great on all 3

[marble hemlock]

id rather have someone play a spec theyre comfortable with, and have raided on for years, that is slightly worse than "the best spec", vs having them play smth new entirely, especially as playing something theyre not super comfy with tends to lower their performacne not just in throughput, but also awareness of mechanics, communication, and coordination.

[midnight mist]

idk but I play sub in raid well enough that its better than my outlaw on basically every boss, i would expect to raid with the same type of people, otherwise i woudlnt be there no ?

[thorn thorn]

Just like me fr

[runic hinge]

What wr were you, just curious

[midnight mist]

we were 24 last tier

[marble hemlock]

well ofc zac, but even you have to admit that not every player in your raid is as gifted at the game as you, as smart as you, and as flawless as you in everything they do. for some players it might be a struggle to swap specs and not immediately play it flawlessly like you do everything in life.

[midnight mist]

i dont think wr matters in this conversation tho

my point still stands

[distant plinth]

When ppl play meta they can do mistakes and even beat a rogue that play 100% 😂

[midnight mist]

thank you i appreciate it

[cunning needle]

it does because outside WR of 3-400, half the raiders can't even play the spec they main correctly.

[bleak sedge]

I think it matters a lot. Guilds that clear CE only shortly before patch end do not fail at spec choice

[runic hinge]

Yeah I think once you’re outside hof spec doesn’t matter

[midnight mist]

ye bro you are in shit low if you arent liquid or echo

fr fr

[marble hemlock]

it might be hard to grasp, but even RWF guilds tend to not fail at spec choice.

[cunning needle]

i mean i said WR 3-400 not RWF

[midnight mist]

ah

[distant plinth]

0 rogues inc in RWF

[midnight mist]

ok look

its 8 am for me

i havent slept yet

[marble hemlock]

spec choice matters, yes. but not nearly as much as people like to think it does. its just an easy scapegoat to blame spec tuning for getting benched, or for feeling inferior in your raid, when theres so much more you can provide to your raid other than DPS during a boss fight.

[thorn thorn]

Friendly reminder that in NP liquid acknowledged that aug had much better throughput on a lot of fights but opted to have their lizards play dev simply because it was way easier

[marble hemlock]

and doing the latter will make you a much more valuable raider in the longterm, especially when your spec ends up not being shit for once

[thorn thorn]

Not always about which spec does more dam

[golden loom]

its like last tier, I could probably have played sub to the same level as assa but I also didnt find it enjoyable at all, and I don't think my performance was the bottleneck for our prog

[jaunty notch]

wassup

[bleak sedge]

Depends on viewpoint. There are so many 3-8% pulls in rwf that would die with a slightly better dmg setup (if they play everything good)

[golden loom]

me heroic leaping into dimmy when it was a kill pull was bad tho

[jaunty notch]

sub season it is then

[midnight mist]

i mean its not about that tho, its about doing the maximum i can to clear the raid faster, because if everyone in your raid does that you get higher wr and you are happy right

so why would i not go all the way

[cunning needle]

my stance on the whole "it's sub tier for last 3 expansions" is that is only true for people in RWF and probably HoF at most.

outside that assi has been the primary spec of choice for raiders in guilds below those

[cunning needle]

they also didnt have enough people who could play sub for smolderon because people just didnt know how to play sub/rogue

[midnight mist]

never been an outlaw tier tho

[thorn thorn]

Also true

[marble hemlock]

nah. i prefer people having fun, over playing a spec they dislike just because its slightly better. id gladly (and have mostly raided with people who think the same), takje a 5 or 10 or 20 WR hit, if it means people can play what they want instead of having to keep 3-5 alts around and reroll every tier.

[bleak sedge]

Because it doesn't matter after x wr. Then people care about playing what they want more than wr

[midnight mist]

i watched exile and other rogue players try to play outlaw on council this tier and they couldnt

[runic hinge]

It could be if you played it but you’re too scared. Overcome your fear

[thorn thorn]

It depends on a lot of things

[midnight mist]

i mean tbf outalw isnt assa bro

[golden loom]

I also watched my goat kush play all of fract with 3 poisons applied...

[midnight mist]

its not like i was just a slightly worse burst spec

[cunning needle]

maybe outlaw has acutally been sleeper for the last 3 expansions but no one ever plays it because theyre too shit at it

[marble hemlock]

my stance on the whole "it's sub tier for last 3 expansions" is that is only true for people in RWF and probably HoF at most.
its relevant for maybe 10 guilds

[distant plinth]

People arent playing for fun to reach HOF, gotta play the "best" to push the rating bro

[midnight mist]

its been sub tier for me for the past 3 expac

[thorn thorn]

If the spec is insanely hard for only a few % gain its probably not worth having them swap right unless they are already extremely capable on all specs

[cunning needle]

i was trying to be generous since HoF still does have some dps checks

[marble hemlock]

anyone else who thinks they got benched for playing smth other than sub in their guild, are just bad raiders who provide no value to the raid other than the spec they play. and thats a skill issue. a soft-skill issue.

[cunning needle]

yeah but congrats you're in the top 0.1% of raiders

[thorn thorn]

A good deal of players will be proficient with all specs of their class but not all of them

[midnight mist]

i mean again im not talking about bench tho

[thorn thorn]

Sometimes not worth the gamble

[distant plinth]

Troll to play something else if a spec is clearly better than ur "favorite specc"

[midnight mist]

i wouldnt get benched if i was playing outlaw

[cunning needle]

reminder that those who are RFWL raiders are still the top 2% of raiders in wow

[midnight mist]

i just dont think its right toward the 20 other people in my raid idk

[haughty flicker]

thanks

[midnight mist]

ty for reminder

what is rfwl

[cunning needle]

race for world last

aka people getting CE in the last week

[midnight mist]

ah

banger

[thorn thorn]

That is a painful statistic

[golden loom]

how close in % of performance would outlaw have to be for you to play it on prog

[midnight mist]

idk i played outlaw on fractilus cuase on paper it was similar st to assa

and no one had played outlaw on that boss or any other boss

so i didnt know it was actually dogshit !

[golden loom]

just get there first

[midnight mist]

i cant tell you a number tho cause it doesnt work like that

[distant plinth]

Got simbaited?😂

[runic hinge]

Maybe you were just outta practice

[cunning needle]

it is, and it's partially skewed because a lot of people just don't raid at a mythic level but it also backs up selis point that there is more to raiding than just the spec of choice

[midnight mist]

sub will carry phases

outlaw will get carried trough everything

thats just unfortunate tho

[golden loom]

ye its kind of an awful comparison

[midnight mist]

but i can play outlaw on bosses like fractilus

sometimes

[marble hemlock]

i get that viewpoint, but my experience raiding at a reasonably high level has just taught me different.

if a player puts in the effort outside of raid, and has the soft-skills they need to have during raid, no one actually cares if they play the optimal spec.

[worn nimbus]

Tbf every rogue spec is dog water, bringing a rogue to mythic is trolling

[sharp viper]

I came here to be mad about the lack of tuning

[worn nimbus]

Just bring another mage

[midnight mist]

idk bro if i brought outlaw on dimensuis

i think maybe its different

cause its outlaw

and the difference is so abmyssal

in certain scenarios

[marble hemlock]

ye

i do think outlaw is a bit of a special case

because of how unbeliavably dogshit the spec is

[distant plinth]

Ok tell the RFW to play assa then, when sub is by far the superior.. not sure what lvl u have played at but i can guarantee if those guys play what they like its bye bye

[midnight mist]

wtf bro

[marble hemlock]

maybe if you didnt collectively throw a massive temper tantrum every time the spec even gets touched a tiny bit, blizzard would tune it more often.

[haughty flicker]

something something sorry you hate everything zac

[marble hemlock]

but if i were a blizz dev, i wouldnt wanna touch outlaw either

[haughty flicker]

zac solely responsible for the state of outlaw the last decade

[midnight mist]

ye im single handlely disuading blizzard to tune outlaw

[runic hinge]

It’s true

[cunning needle]

the 6 remaining outlaw players want the spec to be changed in 9 different ways

[marble hemlock]

and yet we have RWF guilds playing different comps on different bosses. how can that be if one setup is superior to all the others? or is there maybe more to it than that?

[sharp viper]

Who is responsible for assa?!

[haughty flicker]

you probably

[midnight mist]

why didnt outalw get execute over assa

[brisk forge]

That is just straight up wrong. Its some messed up argue among ppl

[midnight mist]

just putting that out there

[marble hemlock]

weve literally had RWFs where one guild played assa on a boss, and the other played sub, due to differences in comp or strategy or CD timings

[sharp viper]

[midnight mist]

i dont understand these words sorry

maybe english barrier for me

[marble hemlock]

one guild played assa for more execute, the other played more arms warriors. how is that even possible in a sub tier?

crazy

[molten harbor]

delete outlaw, add tank spec. problem solved

[midnight mist]

on dragon man ?

[marble hemlock]

iirc that was on fyrakk, ye

[thorn thorn]

Friendly reminder that in NP liquid acknowledged that aug had much better throughput on a lot of fights but opted to have their lizards play dev simply because it was way easier

[midnight mist]

ye

[thorn thorn]

Keeps being relevant

[midnight mist]

tbf both spec did the same damage so

[marble hemlock]

you mentioned that earlier, but yes.

game isnt as black and white as people think it is

[midnight mist]

unless its outlaw

[marble hemlock]

b-b-but zac-senpai... you said the last 3 expacs were a sub tier. how can both specs do the same damage in a sub tier?

[runic hinge]

Yeah true. One bad spec outta 39 ain’t bad

[worn nimbus]

Outlaw will never see high play for more than a single boss in raid if even that

Back it up boys were cooked

[brisk forge]

The way you view things is just on your behalf. Ppl dont reelly care in i play ”none meta” as long as you can be a good raider

[midnight mist]

well it was still a sub tier cause smolderon and tindral lol

even tho you could play assa on fyrak wihtout giga inting

sub could carry shield tho

assa couldnt

[marble hemlock]

but that had virtually nothing to do with the class design/tuning, and everything to do with the encounter design

[midnight mist]

so 1:0 for the sub guys

[thorn thorn]

We must collaborate to bring the downfall of big sub

[marble hemlock]

if smolderon wouldve been a 2min amp phase, it wouldve been an assa tier?

[midnight mist]

still a sub tier tho

so

it can be a sub tier every tier for different reasons no ?

[marble hemlock]

maybe deep down you just prefer being sub?

[midnight mist]

i do think its funny how it often end up a sub tier cause of fight design

[midnight mist]

over assa certainly

[jaunty notch]

yeah zac is a sub

[midnight mist]

you got me there

[sharp viper]

sub

[marble hemlock]

anyway

[midnight mist]

who would have thought if you have downtime after cds and damage amps during cd the burst spec is good !

[marble hemlock]

99,99% of players should worry less abotu spec performance, and more about how else they can contribute to the raid, and their raid, and their own skill and value as a player, will increase.

and the 0.01% remaining need to not think the game or every conversation revolves around them

[cunning needle]

not exactly related but the spirit of the point is there.

[marble hemlock]

[thorn thorn]

So true

[marble hemlock]

spend 14hrs in mythic+, or spend 13hrs in mythic+ and do 1hr of proper raidprep?

yet the majority do the 14hrs

[waxen oyster]

our lizard was somehow worse at dev

than aug

[thorn thorn]

[midnight mist]

a good part of my value in raid is the spec i bring tho lol

[golden loom]

I read essays on classic bosses cause I was afraid on dying cause it was hardcore, retail I just show up and do dam

[cunning needle]

that's because rogue is a dogshit class that only brings damage to the raid

[midnight mist]

i can prep a fight as much as i can in the end if i chose the wrong spec its a failed step unlucko

[marble hemlock]

and then they get benched or deprioritized for stuff because the guy who works 50hr weeks and has 2 kids, who is 5ilvl below them, ended up contributing more to a kill than them

[sturdy mesa]

Haha that’s a funny lookin cucumber

[midnight mist]

no you also bring atro

[marble hemlock]

i will refer you back to this: #assassination message

[sharp viper]

Spec design has to line up with encounter design. I member destro locks blasting in undermine despite demo having way higher sims.

[midnight mist]

ayo

[marble hemlock]

well ofc its a failed step if you play a spec that doesnt have step.

thats kind of an idiot move tbh

[thorn thorn]

Ya but who cares about smelly locks

[midnight mist]

anyway

outlaw sims higher

so its an outlaw tier

[cunning needle]

which is a rather optional debuff since it doesnt make the raid do more damage

[waxen oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/ah-shit-here-we-go-again-ah-shit-cj-gta-gta-san-andreas-gif-13933485

[sharp viper]

Indisputable facts

[midnight mist]

do you think if warrior buff stacked we would bring 2 warriors

[runic hinge]

See this is how you should be

More confident

[midnight mist]

or even priest buff stacked you would bring 2 priests

[cunning needle]

honestly? yes

rogue atro stacked (bug) for a while

and people werent bringing 2 rogues

[midnight mist]

so how come they keep telling me atro is a real raid buff

but then when it stacked for 3 expac

[sharp viper]

Nope, more mages is always the answer

[midnight mist]

they never brought more than 1 rogue

https://giphy.com/gifs/cat-kitty-bleh-vPzbDN4rBxuvtpSpzF

[haughty flicker]

Because if we gaslight ourselves into thinking it everyone else will too

[cunning needle]

or 0 rogues (wooooo soul hunters)

[marble hemlock]

simple: play wih numbing instead, then say "did you guys notice the difference when you brought me in cuz of atro?" and the healer will all say "yeah, was a lot easier", and then you shatter their world and write a new guild app

[sharp viper]

More mages or more locks is always the best move

[midnight mist]

i still think numbing is better in keys

[cunning needle]

same

[marble hemlock]

obviously

[midnight mist]

but my healers wont let me spec into it

maybe they are right

[cunning needle]

don't listen to them.

[midnight mist]

i dont think they are

[cunning needle]

healers aren't people. they don't get opinions

[marble hemlock]

depends on the dungeon id say

smth like top? yeah, atro all the way.

[median root]

unbelievably based

[marble hemlock]

but most dungeons its just trash thats the issue, not bosses

[waxen oyster]

ironically the person who tells me this the most are tank mains

[midnight mist]

we were doing priory going left side with all the kicks

with no voice

and my healer wouldnt let me

[marble hemlock]

skill issue

[midnight mist]

take numbing

[waxen oyster]

my tank used to say

[marble hemlock]

whats he gonna do if you dont?

[midnight mist]

idk

we prolly would argue for a few hours

[waxen oyster]

"if the healer isnt your whipping boy being dragged around on a leash you doing it wrong"

[marble hemlock]

imagine trusting your players and letting them do what they (with their class knowledge) think is best

[cunning needle]

there's a reason they are always last to get tier

[marble hemlock]

maybe thats the issue. people dont trust your judgment. ||cant blame them tbh||

[midnight mist]

ayo

ok but there is no kick tracker in midnight anymore

so numbing value goes up

[cunning needle]

numbing also reduces attack speed

[midnight mist]

yei know

[cunning needle]

and tanks can get beat up very badly

people always forget about that part

[midnight mist]

i will beat you up

[cunning needle]

white hits can hurt

[thorn thorn]

Trust nothing from an outlaw player

[marble hemlock]

nah, its very much personal

i never trust players who think they always know better/other peoples opposing opinions are by default false.

we used to call them "m+ andies" in our guild

cause it was very prevalent with highend m+ players who also raided

[median root]

[midnight mist]

#assassination message does this apply or am i getting targeted

[marble hemlock]

typical multiclassgodx players who reroll every season for the meta dps specs, still barely get top 100 rio scores, and then think theyre hot shit in raids

[molten harbor]

the only thing I dont get is how a fotm/meta chaser is mad when they are stuck playing something. Like isnt that your entire mindset?

[marble hemlock]

yes

[midnight mist]

wait

[thorn thorn]

Well people like that only wanna play whats good

Not necessarily whats fun

[midnight mist]

its ok im not an m+ andy

i still dont know if i prefer raid or m+

[haughty flicker]

[midnight mist]

i dont feel targeted

[thorn thorn]

They also routinely have some of the most dogshit takes of specs they fotm reroll too

“Yo this spec is so fucking peak its so fun” and its literally one of the worst iterations the spec has seen

[marble hemlock]

m+ multiclassgodx'ers are the kind of people who think spamming mythic+ 14hrs a day and playing the "broken" spec in raid with a reroll, is them contributing to the raid as best as they can

[midnight mist]

ye but its topping meters bro

[waxen oyster]

"this spec feels clunky"

plays the same

less number

[midnight mist]

dude stop it

i dont feel targeted i said

[marble hemlock]

then theyre dead silent in raid, only speak up when they get to be captain hindsight, and never add anything of value to boss discussions or analysis

[cunning needle]

it's simple. when I do damage I have fun and when I don't do damage I don't have fun

[thorn thorn]

Ye

[marble hemlock]

idk why you think im talking about you, but its kinda telling us something isnt it?

[thorn thorn]

Nothing wrong with that

[midnight mist]

i know that was the joke ..

guys i dont feel targeted !

[marble hemlock]

[midnight mist]

im not a multiclasser

i have 5 rogues

[thorn thorn]

But sometimes the fotm people got legit the worst fucking takes about the spec they play

[midnight mist]

its not about me !

[cunning needle]

the only people that have less rights than healers are m+ doers

[marble hemlock]

in my experience, we never needed more than 2-3 rerolls per tier

[cunning needle]

and fotm rerollers

[marble hemlock]

for broken shit

[cunning needle]

who are typically doers

[thorn thorn]

I play M+

[marble hemlock]

like sp in undermine or boomie in sanctum

[cunning needle]

DK for ovinax

[marble hemlock]

most fights you can still kill, albeit at a slightly lower pullcount, with suboptiomal comps

[thorn thorn]

Im willing to bet MW for fyrakk if you didnt already have one

[midnight mist]

i dont think we would ahve ever killed dimensuis if i was outlaw, but this conversation does not concern me so im ok

[marble hemlock]

we did blood council without a DK, first guild to do it. was annoying, but who cares, go next, make up the pullcount and pat yourselves on the back for doing smth no one else did

[waxen oyster]

reminder dks still pretended their class might not be good

[cunning needle]

DKs have joined boomkins and warlocks in the communities of absolute sandbagging and "woe is me"

[waxen oyster]

well

when DA and AMS let you ignore most raid mechanics

less things to do

[marble hemlock]

https://i.imgur.com/IsCnu5X.jpeg

[midnight mist]

banger bro

[haughty flicker]

[runic hinge]

Damn not even for the whole tier?? Because of one guy? You must really have carried your guild

[cunning needle]

[midnight mist]

nah but we killed it pre nerf and sub was kinda carrying the fight

while outlaw was turbo useless

[runic hinge]

Right so you coulda killed it just slower

[midnight mist]

ye well

at this point

[haughty flicker]

Kills post nerf don't count

[runic hinge]

Oh true

[molten harbor]

He has a point about killing it before nerfs. But you signed up for that life

[midnight mist]

for that dimensuis

im ngl

[molten harbor]

It's actually the bicycle and stick meme

[midnight mist]

[haughty flicker]

[hasty viper]

Holy shit this convo is still going

[marble hemlock]

so kills past the first 4 in the world dont count, or in some cases, even worldfirst doesnt count

[haughty flicker]

[runic hinge]

True !

[midnight mist]

[haughty flicker]

People think im serious time to bail

[midnight mist]

guys hear me out

[haughty flicker]

[thorn thorn]

Somebody roll the mugzee copy pasta for post nerf kills

[sharp viper]

No you’re bel

[haughty flicker]

Time to bel

[marble hemlock]

yeah, we talked about the assa changes for a while but then pivoted into this.

[midnight mist]

i mean

tbf

[thorn thorn]

What was there to discuss

[midnight mist]

the way i see it

[thorn thorn]

[marble hemlock]

[midnight mist]

outlaw and assa got buffed for keys

cause of sub aoe nerf

[cunning needle]

🥪

[midnight mist]

so im fine with the notes

[hasty viper]

[thorn thorn]

True trye

[marble hemlock]

the only real winners are the people who bet on the correct psychic link % number for this patch.

[thorn thorn]

Whispyr did drop a bangar of a sandwich recipe

[midnight mist]

• the real win of the patch is that assa got no buffs so its an outalw tier

thank you

[haughty flicker]

Assa buffs dont come until after heroic week

As is tradition

[marble hemlock]

the real win is that if its an outlaw tier, zac wont be in this assa channel as much

[cunning needle]

assi buffs dont come until HoF is cleared

[midnight mist]

right as the outlaw nerfs hit?

[thorn thorn]

Thank god

[haughty flicker]

Ye

The timing of the gods

[cunning needle]

it's a sub tier from the period of release till HoF, then it's assi tier from HoF till end of season

[midnight mist]

listen i know you love me even tho you dont show it

its like whispyr

[cunning needle]

it's never outlaw tier

[sharp viper]

[midnight mist]

im his favorite

[runic hinge]

That was a hard one. Is it now the lowest it’s ever been?

[haughty flicker]

Yes

[thorn thorn]

Get these outlaw players out of my assa chat now

[haughty flicker]

It went from the highest its ever been to the lowest

[midnight mist]

my name isnt even yellow

[haughty flicker]

In a single patch

[midnight mist]

how have i been discovered

[hasty viper]

Idk these Outlaw players seem comfortable in your ass

[haughty flicker]

Its been this low before granted

[sonic zinc]

i thought it was like 15% a long time ago

[thorn thorn]

[runic hinge]

Is it time to reroll spriest

[haughty flicker]

It used to be 20% i dont think 15%

[marble hemlock]

because when i post this meme, everyone knows who its about.
https://i.imgur.com/IsCnu5X.jpeg

i dont have to put a name over the guy

[haughty flicker]

Insane chart

[cunning needle]

futures market for psychic link when?

[haughty flicker]

Buy the dip

[midnight mist]

#assassination message

[marble hemlock]

the real challenge is finding a completely unrelated geopolitical or economical situation that has the same graph, and then claiming that theyre related

[haughty flicker]

I think itll still be fine in raid

[cunning needle]

now that'd be peak content

[sharp viper]

Correlation is tight

[copper moth]

assa buffs pog

[runic hinge]

???

Is that funny

[midnight mist]

he just woke up

[copper moth]

more sadly

[midnight mist]

he is european

loser

!

[copper moth]

he isnt even he

[midnight mist]

he who

[copper moth]

she not he

[midnight mist]

ah

sorry lol i didnt understand

[cunning needle]

you can put pronouns in your discord profile

[runic hinge]

I also did

[marble hemlock]

ye but who are you?

and why is there no stewart pic?

[haughty flicker]

Does glorp count

[copper moth]

u can ?

[runic hinge]

Not someone posting notes from hours ago

[hasty viper]

You can also be funny with them like saying Onion/Soup

[runic hinge]

He still sleeping

[marble hemlock]

theres nothing funny about onion soup

[cunning needle]

true

[hasty viper]

Idk man, onions have layers

Kind of crazy ngl

[sharp viper]

[analog hedge]

am i crazy? only sub gets something

where is the sin buff blizzard...

[sharp viper]

No such spec exists

Rogue is the 2 spec class now after devourer dh got added

[cunning needle]

dw assi will be buffed in 6 weeks when HoF closes

as is tradition

[sharp viper]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-wedding-tradition-gif-17568538

[haughty flicker]

Stop saying assi

[cunning needle]

would you rather me say assass?

[analog hedge]

please cause its so ass rn

[haughty flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/movies-animation-gingy-shrek-youre-a-monster-gif-14849862

[analog hedge]

there is no way..., i refreshed the page 3 times in case im tripping

[cunning needle]

yeah no buffs (or nerfs) to assass

[jolly stirrup]

Check out Pookies Video

[cunning needle]

check back next week

[jolly stirrup]

He goes over everything

[cunning needle]

also

[runic hinge]

muti

[cunning needle]

okay old man

[jolly stirrup]

Envenom, the Spec ™

Well thanks AI overview

[rocky zodiac]

Purely on paper (i know we cant say for Sure) which Spec Looks the most promising to start Raid with?

[sharp viper]

Outlul

[rocky zodiac]

4 real? 😂

[midnight mist]

sub now should sim the same as outlaw

while being sub and not outlaw

take that as you will

[jolly stirrup]

I will stay Ass(a)

[night delta]

They cannot in their right mind think there is nothing to do on sin

Even a basic aura buff is beyond them ; they legit forgot the spec exists

[wary light]

They literally got out damaged in a dungeon by a sub rogue and did a tuning pass, we needed more assa rogues doing ass in keys with blizz employees

[high sundial]

I remember the pre-release raids as 'thank fuck it won't be like this on release"

[night delta]

Or the blue poster forgot to copypaste the sin section into the post

[analog hedge]

i deadass refreshed the page 3 times, cause im thinking of this

[night vessel]

this has to be a joke.

[runic hinge]

there is more tuning passes and also they can add stuff on monday as well

[jolly stirrup]

That was my reaction

[worldly bridge]

Any pally enjoyer around here ? We could use some help with the insurrection

[winged quail]

Throughly enjoyed the new Whispyr video

[night delta]

If Midnight told me anything it's to not trust Paladins

Have you seen how they stroll around Silvermoon like they own the place ?

[cunning needle]

idk they kinda saved the entire city

they kinda deserve to

[worldly bridge]

Patch note updated

[analog hedge]

nah i hate the SM guard

they keep eyeing me cause im a void elf

i wish we can throw hands

on the npc

😔

[spiral warren]

Lmao why always sub gets buff

[runic hinge]

say that in the sub channel and see how they respond

[idle ravine]

According to sub channel its a nerf overall

[brave snow]

buff single target and nerf aoe

[flint tusk]

Well it’s
ST buff
Cleave nerf
Aoe giga nerf
Pvp pretty level nerfed burst increased follow up

[balmy condor]

small ST buff, if they manage to buff all the things

and residuals

which they wont

[flint tusk]

Blizzard saw through your sandbagging of assassination Shindig.
What have you got to say to the council

[jolly stirrup]

https://tenor.com/view/pandas-council-council-meeting-meeting-assembly-gif-4358325127552539701

[vernal adder]

Ass and outlaw eating together

[elfin flame]

in ST, if KB is like 10s out and I got no teas but 1 coming up with my KB, and barely enough energy to keep my env chain going, say my implacable is at 40 stacks:

would i be better off dropping the envenom chain and stop using globals so i can start it again with higher energy at the same time kb comes off cd?

or would i be better off riding the chain out fully (say i make it to 65 stacks), and rip kingsbane on low energy (although i will have the 4s of energy regen)

or is this hypothetical never going to happen because energy is never that bad

[cunning needle]

shindig blue name now. it's so jover for assass

[balmy condor]

secret fourth option, it's a hypothetical that might happen but is functionally irrelevant because what are you losing exactly?

you sit on 5cp anyway as you wait for envenom to expire

envenom expires, you're insta back

[elfin flame]

uh im weighing the value of getting more stacks of kingsbane vs. having longer envenom chains

[balmy condor]

you're not losing stacks though

[elfin flame]

i assume the first option gives me more stacks of kb bc ill have better env uptime starting with higher energy

[balmy condor]

like I don't think it's physically possible to starve yourself hard enough to drop envenom during kb

[elfin flame]

as opposed to running on fumes going into it

[balmy condor]

doesn't matter

you're getting the cp from apex

[elfin flame]

ok ya this is also possible and what i meant by would the hypotheical never happen

[balmy condor]

you have a guaranteed envenom 6s of envenom

[elfin flame]

oh i did forget about this

[balmy condor]

immediately after kb

two envenoms are enough to cover kb typically

and you get one for free

just ain't happenin

[elfin flame]

ok but what if all my bleeds are expiring

im new to assa rogue

lol

[balmy condor]

still fine

you can fit that in too

[elfin flame]

DAMN what the helly

ur rant about pooling rings harder now

[balmy condor]

envenom uptime 96% in leveling greens btw

[elfin flame]

im running 0% haste you cant stop me

[balmy condor]

like they're all fun hypotheticals and stuff, but there is simply no headroom for more envenom uptime, and that's with the sim already ignoring the buff timer and just slammin

even if they made assa even slower, or nerfed envenom