assassination

[bronze pike]

If anything this arguement shows

That if you have mo life

[haughty flicker]

mo life mo problems

[bronze pike]

You can time peak keys with the dumbest build imaginable for all roles

Granted exaggeration

But there’s a clear flexability

[haughty flicker]

im going to do a 20 with my no dm build

[hidden bay]

i once did #1 on rik with CT build but no one else played it, quiet now

[balmy condor]

how many goalposts are we gonna move

[strange sleet]

yea ez Floodgate 17 with aug evokers

[bronze pike]

2 more Whipsyr

[thorn thorn]

"How is it better?"

"(Reason)"

"Thats wrong, why is it actually better?"

Every. Single. Time.

[near valley]

guys it's ok

he's gone now

[bronze pike]

Next is “maybe there’s some sort of secret tech you don’t know about”

“They do 10000level keys so they just know more”

[haughty flicker]

took the bait for far too long

[near valley]

the absolute Megamind himself has left to go spread his wisdom elsewhere

[bronze pike]

So he bitched out

[drifting cloud]

should just delete some talents on assa tbh so theres only 1 build

[hidden bay]

hes gonna go into zeross stream and brags about this

[azure dirge]

That's a sub thing silly

[bronze pike]

Pog

[drifting cloud]

just throw darts

[balmy condor]

ran out of goalposts

[near valley]

assuming he even had one

[latent grove]

if in your opener you're not sub 200 energy is it still worth to just hit em both? Or if I'm not under 200 energy is my opener wrong

[strange sleet]

To be fair I didn't understand why you don't CT at the end of a pull to max SD dmg. Like for real now. At which point, numerically, is a caustic envenom better or worse than 66% CT?

[sacred arch]

so are we proccing the extra ct damage cuz of the affix this week

[tepid meadow]

do you take master assassin or vicious venoms in pure single target?

[haughty flicker]

was definitely one of those "start the argument serious but then lean more into trolling so you can say you were doing it the whole time" type beats

[velvet cairn]

vv in st build

[haughty flicker]

i had fun though

[ashen totem]

tariffs on steel, cant just keep moving goal posts willy nilly now

[spice spire]

Yes you can funnel CT damage on the balls

[sacred arch]

nice

[spice surge]

I was only pretending to be ..... type shit

[bronze pike]

Hot

[near valley]

yeah u can

[velvet cairn]

dont forget no clear the witness or w/e that fan of knife thing is when you run vv

[median root]

Bleed build is enlightened because i can now crash out when i dont get pi - thanks whispyr!

[haughty flicker]

yes make sure to shout slurs at your priest if they dont give you pi

[tepid meadow]

thanks!

[haughty flicker]

like a true rogue

[balmy condor]

would technically change constantly depending on how many targets you're hitting and how long each mob is alive for, kinda way too complicated to give a hard number for

[near valley]

thing is i even told lil bro a valid reason and he agreed

then he doubled-down on being dumb afterwards

90% chance bro was high

[velvet cairn]

but the thing is he used vanished and got us all in the end, who really won?

[near valley]

we all did cause this was good content

we'll be recalling this for months to come

[tepid meadow]

without improved garrote/MA do you even bother with vanish during cds?

[haughty flicker]

nope

vanish if you lose mark somehow

or to troll fixates

[tepid meadow]

roger

[velvet cairn]

no vanish during cds, you can use it for ambush but i dont think that is better. save for switching targets if u troll ur DN

[spice surge]

Correct vanish does literally nothing besides allow you to refresh mark if you lose it

[strange sleet]

yeah I get it. For 5 targets would be kinda easy to self-calculate, but I don't know how to do the math past that because of the scaling.

[spice surge]

Jokes on you, CT doesnt do less damage until after 8 targets, not 5

[subtle kiln]

wait that’s 3 more calculators

[spice surge]

Having accurate tooltips is not blizzards strongest suit

[velvet cairn]

oh shit i actually have a question, if u got darkest night up and get a ambush proc with 5-6 cp. is it legal to a fok to envenom proc DN and then use ambush?

[near valley]

imagine if CT damage amp could go infinitie?

[balmy condor]

in raid or m+

[spice surge]

Well the +20% amp stops at 5

[velvet cairn]

raid

[near valley]

yeah so I mean further beyond

100% is not enough

[haughty flicker]

can i get the dk to grip in critters and amp my ct on small packs

[balmy condor]

you can fok on 6 if you want but it's not a min max or anything, can just send the ambush

[near valley]

i need 9000%

[spice surge]

But CTs "deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets" is actually "deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets"

[nova kelp]

oh, did we manage to move on from the "but my favourite streamer plays..."?

awe, I missed the end of it

[near valley]

lol why is the tooltip so innacurate?

[spice surge]

[haughty flicker]

the brightest flames burn out the fastest

[velvet cairn]

thanks pretiate ya and ur vids

[near valley]

more like a book finishes fast when it has no words

[nova kelp]

it'll probably burn again in an hour or so

Ssomeone will pop up like "so is bleed build good now?"
instantly someone will respond with "it's good until higher keys yeah"

[balmy condor]

np

[strange sleet]

I should have paid more attention in math class. I would be a way better wow player 😦

[haughty flicker]

call me book

[nova kelp]

ngl, maths are cool

numbers are sick

except when you realise how poorly people understand them

[strange sleet]

yeah numbers make me sick too

[near valley]

I felt like this was whispyr

The entire time

[steel orchid]

So is this bleed build the same one listed for M+ on WoWhead? Did raid builds change?

[velvet cairn]

only with last buffs with vv being back, if u know that no changes

[strange sleet]

Is follow the blood dynamic? yes right?

[near valley]

dynamic how?

[nova kelp]

it is

it needs to be

[strange sleet]

it says while so it makes sense

[nova kelp]

like if it weren't imagine, you put a rupture on one thing, and then another but FUCK YOU, YOU ALREADY HAD A RUPTURE ON ONE THING LOSER

[steel orchid]

What do we drop for VV?

[near valley]

oh i grasp what you meant

yeah it's dynamic

[velvet cairn]

one sec

[near valley]

would be a fun time micromanaging that

[nova kelp]

I would actually uninstall if that were an intended feature

[strange sleet]

I don't get it

[near valley]

i'd start chatting shit about bleed build myself at that point

[velvet cairn]

u go aertierial instead of that shiv thing if theres more than 2 targets (dont quote me on this) in fight, eg stix or smth

[strange sleet]

I think it would e soo cool if it snapshotted

[thorn thorn]

Throw back to when frost dk got nerfed in S1 and we got this gem

[near valley]

om

[nova kelp]

I just
ca
wtf

can you smell toast?

I smell toast

[steel orchid]

ty

[thorn thorn]

You may be having a stroke

[velvet cairn]

no worries! no use for stealth in raid after that, only if u would mess up mark on eg cauldron or smth

[near valley]

worst thing is they knew how to average

cause they chose 8% x 4

[midnight mist]

wait

[shrewd pine]

Stop it. You'll give @nova kelp a brain bleed

[midnight mist]

oh ct

[balmy condor]

can confirm btw, arterial on everything, tiny toxic is a very small minmax for sprocketmonger

[nova kelp]

you linked something
it remote casted /cast aneurysm on me

[midnight mist]

tought spatter i was about to go crazy no cap

[spice surge]

Its not a change, its apparently been this way for a long time

Silly us for assuming the tooltip wasnt wildly inaccurate

[thorn thorn]

Math is real hard

[nova kelp]

Math makes me real hard

[near valley]

1+1 = window

[tired wagon]

!shiv

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

Assassination uses no other macro aside from standard Deathmark+Potion+Racial+Trinket

[strange sleet]

quick maths

[near valley]

[thorn thorn]

Shoulda seen wyrmrest temple when aug got the 15% aura buff

People were pissed it got buffed after being killed

And it took way too long to explain to people that the aura buff was only to personal spells so it was actually 4%

4% = 15%

You heard it here first

[near valley]

nah the best was when invigorating shadows got nerfed in DF

was top 5 ravenholdt moments

[thorn thorn]

Explain

[rancid wind]

Is there an amount of time where putting dots on an add is no longer worth it? Thinking a fight like Mythic One-Arm Bandit and whether its more damage to swap fully to the Reel Assistant, put Rupture and/or Garrote on it, or just ignore it and cleave from the boss

[thorn thorn]

Iirc if they dont live the full dot duration its not worth the dot cost

[balmy condor]

in raids with viscious it's like >11ish seconds

[thorn thorn]

Wait was invigorating shadows the heal overtime during dance and vanish

[strange sleet]

mmm I'm not so sure about that.

[velvet cairn]

i am progging it rn, i only do a garrote and if darkest night and its more than 50% dead. otherwise i go bandito. boss dmg is meh since you are prob chilling with dmg around 35%

[nova kelp]

it's gota be worth quite a bit to be worth it at all, you're losing spatter globals right off the rip, before you even factor in
"if I did envenom here instead i'd do x damage instead of y damage on the mob over z time"
and then there's the question of did you optimise the switch? or did it actually end up costing you globals?
etc etc

[hidden bay]

you can dot other reel assistans, yes but you stay on boss

[nova kelp]

generally speaking, it's sorta not worth

[velvet cairn]

dotting the one thats not focused, if its a driveby its pretty valid actually

[rancid wind]

Looking at a lot of logs and VoDs, almost no one swaps to the adds, but some toss out a Garrote and others dont

[hidden bay]

double shadowstep is huge for this

like, literally

[rancid wind]

dont they spawn too frequently to always have 2 charges?

[hidden bay]

just need to be lucky

[rancid wind]

and that seems like pretty dangerous micro-management, but idk if the gain is worth it

[hidden bay]

sometimes its middle you dont kill, sometimes sometimes

[velvet cairn]

they do, thats why i pref driveby, for instance if melee goes right add, ranged left add, do a quick driveby rupture

[rancid wind]

gotcha, a quick dot set on the middle add or something like that

[balmy condor]

it feels a lot better than the gain is

[near valley]

was soothing darkness actually #outlaw message

but it started from here

[nova kelp]

you run the potential of losing a LOT for a feels gain, and the hesitation alone often makes it not worth

[balmy condor]

yeh

[near valley]

u know why it went bad cause of the one guy called deleted user

[velvet cairn]

i think its not really worth to focus on, specially on early prog. maybe a midmax when u go for better logs or smth, or KNOW you can manage it with a good flow ig

[nova kelp]

even then... like I'd probably bother bleeding a non focused add if for some reason I'm not in range of the boss but RIGHT now I can just mouseover bleed THAT dude instead

but if that's the case... I'm already NOT minmaxing?

[thorn thorn]

"Deleted User"

Amazing

Also giga obvious its ragebait

[near valley]

it was not

that's the funniest part

[thorn thorn]

I refuse to believe it wasnt ragebait

Nobody is that dumb

[near valley]

it's where the 1984 copypasta came from

[balmy condor]

that argument eventually turned into "but mobs deal more damage so the heal is the same but you take more damage so the heal is nerfed"

[thorn thorn]

[balmy condor]

I remember this cause those deleted messages

were a ban I did

[near valley]

it started as an outlaw contained issue

it didn't end that way

[near valley]

good times

[near valley]

he literally came out a 5 min mute to write this beaut:

Imagine being so wrong on something you can easily prove is wrong, you mute somebody for calling out your bullshit act, which is acting right when you are actually wrong about the subject currently being discussed (soothing got a nerf which means it isn't a net 0 change) While LMFAO'ing me despite you clearly being wrong if you thought for one second about it.
"LMFAOOOOO"
"He still has no idea"
But no you have the special role so whatever you say is law.
1984

[thorn thorn]

I wonder what the 1984 is supposed to be

Bro never made it past middle school

Unlucky

[haughty flicker]

holy fuck i remember that

that was such a banger

[near valley]

it's cause Guy supressed his unhinged ranting by muting him

this was peak dooming era too

outlaw aberrus set was working in none of the ways it needed to

[rancid wind]

Is there a certain amount of targets that make Arterial Precision better/worse than Tiny Toxic Blades?

[near valley]

and tuning was garbo

[rancid wind]

And is Caustic Splatter's range based on your character on on the target with the debuff?

[thorn thorn]

https://imgur.com/mftGPmI

[near valley]

i thought any add fight where mobs are close* arterial is just better than TTB

[rancid wind]

thats why I'm asking

[near valley]

that's a good question actually

[rancid wind]

like on Bandit there are 3 adds up a lot, but probably no more than 2 in range of the boss at any given time, and sometimes even just 1

[vivid seal]

!pooling

[prisma monolith]

• Energy just is low on the spec there's nothing to do about it, you will run out
• Only one pooling condition exists (pool around 4 seconds before non-deathmark kingsbanes until 150ish energy). This is worth 0.3%
• Other optimizations are simply not impactful enough to show a benefit in sims, but pooling before quick-dying add spawns could in theory be a practical gain to pad.

[spice surge]

Theres a good pin about caustic range in here

If you scroll past the bleed stuff

[haughty flicker]

ttb is like .2% better in pure st so im sure even 1 add is enough to make ap better

then again i made that the fuck up so maybe im wrong

[rancid wind]

ty

[near valley]

#assassination message just in case

[rancid wind]

yup, i see it now

i think we need to make one of these range diagrams for Windwalker, they're very useful

[haughty flicker]

whispyr is pretty gifted artistically

[near valley]

tbh i'd wager even for the bomb adds it might not be a bad shout over ttb

worst case you're not losing crippling st damage

[haughty flicker]

well you probably dont have bleeds on the bombs

so its just raw shiv damage on them

maybe caustic value

if they dont insta die

[near valley]

true

i guess it's not enough of an issue taking either or

[balmy condor]

please don't evade filter

[haughty flicker]

time for more stix gaming

o7

[fierce galleon]

are we still dry shiving?

[hexed pumice]

hey, does atrophic poison work on boss abilities?

or it's only for tank melee hits reduction of dmg

[gray hazel]

Anyone know for the LE CT WA, if you can set it so it only shows when you have CT out? and just not all the time

[hexed pumice]

i wonder what utility it brings to the raid xd

[near valley]

it works on any damage caused by the boss afaik

but don't quote me on that

[hexed pumice]

tried googling that but haven't really found decent info on that

[strange python]

in one arm mythic, worth swaping to adds? rupture to?

[balmy condor]

any damage attributed to the boss yes

[balmy condor]

probably not

[hexed pumice]

ty

[strange python]

maybe just for the energy recuperation?

[balmy condor]

no

[haughty flicker]

are you sure

[cinder geode]

what do they have cooking in china

[hidden bay]

its literally good

dont cope here

[balmy condor]

I'm lookin at it

[strange python]

i've seen a lot of people doing it

[hidden bay]

we talk about a raw gain like 600 energy or even more

[strange python]

thats why i asked

[hidden bay]

(made up number but its prolly close)

[balmy condor]

I'm seeing reel assistants staying alive long enough for it to be worth on a couple spawns in a couple logs

[hidden bay]

oh yea def

[strange python]

first ones maybe?

[balmy condor]

but it's definitely not every single spawn

[hidden bay]

sometimes raid is so bad that they wont hit em with coins so they stuck at 25%

[balmy condor]

quick check from a couple logs looks like maybe half of them could be worth

[slate crown]

Should be able to change trigger 1 to Show on: Aura Found instead of Always.

[strange python]

yeah ty

[balmy condor]

they just gotta live a long time

[gray hazel]

Thanks. ill give that a shot!

[balmy condor]

this one log is sniping every single one

and it's like 130-170 energy per

that is..... not great

[strange python]

i think its better just if you need some energ

if not just stay on boss

[cunning needle]

fuck that was good content

thanks for the morning enjoyment lads

[balmy condor]

I mean its not about needing some energy it's about if it's worth wasting 5 combo points

[slate crown]

Oh, you also have to Uncheck "Show if Unit Does Not Exist", Show and Clone section should look like this:

[balmy condor]

cause objectively that's the trade off

you're trading 5 combo points on a target without mark

for ~150 energy

[gray hazel]

Thank you so much!

[balmy condor]

yeh some of these slower ones it's probably worth it

but man it's so hard to argue that sniping these is an actual strict dps increase

[strange python]

i think its just 50%

[balmy condor]

if it is worth, it's pretty tight

[strange python]

chance of worth it

idk

[gray hazel]

anyone know of any M+ streamers taht were doing bleed build that might have a vod?

[balmy condor]

shindig

[hidden bay]

Check zeross, hybrid build is better

Oh wow it’s 3am already, I gotta sleep

[balmy condor]

hate you sm

[peak bobcat]

any special mugzee tips

just stand in the middle of the jails?

[drifting cloud]

dont be mad pookie

[hidden bay]

Yes sir

You can rupture immune adds aswell since they won’t die for energy

[fierce galleon]

When in raid, outside of cooldowns are we just waiting until our envenom is 1s remaining? Or is that also inside cooldowns? I'm running out of energy constantly lol

[balmy condor]

just spam

we don't play around envenom uptime

[fierce galleon]

o just hit when have energy?

[balmy condor]

yep

[fierce galleon]

interesting, got it!

[latent umbra]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[languid pier]

?fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[latent umbra]

@balmy condor u mention in ST we still use CT? even with a single boss?

[balmy condor]

with a bleed build yes

[latent umbra]

thanks!!

[obtuse robin]

is arterial pre the play now in st over ttb?

[latent umbra]

this new bleed build feels like im a melee lock afflic spec xD

[balmy condor]

it's probably neutral for most

[drifting cloud]

why arent you raiding, is it comcast again

[spice spire]

Again unnecessary

It’s Comcast still

[drifting cloud]

my bad

[balmy condor]

yeh sorry ryler no hatewatching today

[spice spire]

Man’s going through withdrawals

[drifting cloud]

dont worry after my raid no energy to hatewatch

[balmy condor]

rupture snipe a mob?

[spice spire]

Sorry to hear that bbgirl

It’ll get better

[spice spire]

Hate ur ass

[stable cove]

sorry for noob question but in st bleed build do you prio keeping up ct or envenom?

[balmy condor]

ct

[stable cove]

poggies

[lean plover]

Darkest night envemon>ct i st still right

[balmy condor]

yes

[stable cove]

is there a plater setting to not make nameplates stack behind each other

cant see my ruptures half the time in aoe

[haughty flicker]

i dont want to play katamari anymore

[west crown]

Would it be optimal to vanish, shiv, rupture with IC in execute for multi bosses like first boss ToP?

[karmic spoke]

Hey guys new player and I couldn't find this information anywhere because I guess it's kinda basic but how does going stealth in M+ work ? Like if you don't have vanish do you just stealth between pulls ?

[shell crater]

if you dont have a vanish up your tank should ideally be letting you get a stealth reset

[hollow river]

[latent umbra]

@balmy condor ur bleed build we using deadly or instant poison?

[hollow river]

!carnage

[prisma monolith]

Indiscriminate Carnage Targetting and Swapping
TLDRMouseovers/Target swapping is optimal on 6 target, or 8+ targets, but not necessarily required

• The 2 Bleeds spread by carnage are smart and will prioritize mobs without the bleed. If everything already has bleeds it'll apply randomly
• You as the character are still casting the bleed against your target like normal, this is why people will sometimes use mouseover macros or swap targets

Swapping targets is situationally better, but can be ignored if you're having difficulties with it. Take 5 mob aoe as an example, your first garrote cast will apply to 3 targets (your target + 2 more). Regardless of if you swap or not, your second cast of garrote will hit your target, and then apply 2 more garrotes, prioritizing the mobs that do not have garrote. In very large aoe pulls (12 or more), a standard opener (garrote-garrote-rupture-rupture-garrote-garrote) will only apply 9 garrotes (3+2+2+2) and 5 ruptures (3+2) if you do not swap, losing you 3 garrotes and a rupture.

It is technically worse, but the situations in which you lose bleeds aren't very common; the lost ruptures/garrotes don't contribute much to your already flooded energy, you don't get additional scent of blood stacks, etc. The loss is purely the extra damage from those bleeds.

[hollow river]

there it is

nop thats a different one

[karmic spoke]

Thank you!

[lean plover]

deadly

it deals mlre damage

and its needed to get caustic spatter up

[coral ibex]

!restealth

damn i swear there was a command for it

[steady marlin]

Do we use supercharge combo points to proc darkest night or do we still go to 7 + supercharge

[coral ibex]

the difference between those options is probably negligible

but generally you ignore sc

[viscid spear]

Multiple sub-10% wipes on Gally

[buoyant minnow]

sorry to bother you again, I don't know what the core group is or how to move the weak aura in for the luxthos one :o

I think I figured it out, sorry for the ping!

[balmy condor]

!poisons

fuck

!poison

[prisma monolith]

You should always be using poisons you talent into, which means the following:

Lethals:

• Deadly always + Amplifying if you're talented into it with DTB, Instant only as a final option
  Non-Lethals:
• Atrophic/Numbing, crippling if you're talented into DTB

Wound poison damage in PvE is atrocious and should never be used

[old obsidian]

3 boss on mythic, and idk happen, we kill him about 10 min >_>

[viscid spear]

On Gallywix, what causes Overloaded Coils? We've wiped multiple times to it

[coral ibex]

isn't that the bomb mech

[viscid spear]

Every time we wipe under 10% because this happens, but I can't find it in the journal

[halcyon grail]

remember when we used deadly AND instant?

https://tenor.com/view/sad-love-its-been84years-titanic-rose-dewitt-bukater-gif-16846461

[west crown]

enrage

[vocal cradle]

+14, bleeds still or hybrid?

@balmy condor

[balmy condor]

bleed

[versed mica]

Do we use FoK in single tar with clear ctw in bleed build?

[spice spire]

!fok

[prisma monolith]

Fok Conditions Post-Buff
Fan of Knives as a generator to replace ambush/mutilate:

• Baseline 3+ targets, -1 if talented into momentum of despair and thrown precision, +1 if talented into vicious venoms, +1 if talented into blindside. (Generally 5 with raid build, 3 with Bleed m+, 2 with Hybrid m+)
  Fan of Knives with Clear the Witnesses Up:
• Baseline 2+ targets, -1 if lingering darkness is up or you aren't talented into vicious venoms. With Vicious Venoms casting during lingering darkness is dps neutral.
  Fan of Knives with Darkest Night Up:
• Only on 2+ targets, or without Vicious Venoms talented. This is also a very very minor optimization

The most important to remember is the generator rules, clear the witnesses and darkest night optimizations can be effectively ignored as they are not meaningful DPS improvements

[neat rain]

Yo anyone got a macro for poison applying or can you not macro apply all poisons in one button anymore?

[grave osprey]

Omg so the new no kb bleed build got a buff?!

[haughty flicker]

guys i need help

im playing boomkin on stix now

and idk how to cope with this

[steel orchid]

Keep Calm and Starfall On?

[hidden inlet]

is there a way to sim my dps if i cant stealth

[balmy condor]

Not accurately, no

Dungeonslice already includes chainpulls for what it’s worth

[haughty flicker]

i had to play sub on rik and now im balance on stix

i only exist to cheese add damage

i dont even get a name

only a purpose

[hidden inlet]

if i put it another way do u have a very rough idea on how much DPS loss it is if i cant stealth

i know its very dependant on kill time and target count

[steel orchid]

And they only get more afraid

[tacit hedge]

Ight boyz... I gave in. Imma just switch to sub for Rik barrels

[serene solar]

14 DFC. Lots of sudden demise lol

[tacit hedge]

Bleeds feel a lot better than I thought it would

[haughty flicker]

[dapper cradle]

lmao menial laborer

literally just omega pad

[serene solar]

Literally

[errant trail]

rogue sleeper

bleed build is very good

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/172564751640035328/798336841865494578/image0.gif

[versed mica]

I can't tell if bleed is just gigagood or I'm way better at sin than outlaw

[haughty flicker]

maybe both

i think its quite good

like not bring over a dk good but close

if sanlayn gets hit though

[versed mica]

I also keep getting sin gear in the vault every week, unless you count bee trinket but I dont wanna play that shit with outlaw

[meager light]

Bee is life 🐝

[slate crown]

The best for

my 🐝 s

[versed mica]

I can't 🐝 leive this shit

[barren yarrow]

Curious what does LE stand for?

[rotund oak]

just not the two words afterwards

everything else

[barren yarrow]

Is it just the two names

OHHHHH toodles!

[spring stream]

That would be too easy

[rotund oak]

ikr

[haughty flicker]

oh actually

nvm that was dumb

[rotund oak]

eating oreos

irrelevant but still valid information

[haughty flicker]

oreos are gods gift to humankind

[frank trench]

So kingsbane and death mark are single target only?

[split veldt]

what do we think about 1/1 lethal dose for ironwire instead of shiv

[subtle tundra]

no lethal dose is too good

[haughty flicker]

delete this before whispyr sees

[split veldt]

but shiv feels gud

[versed mica]

are you trolling

it would be better to lose MA than it would be to lose a lethal dose point

Lethal dose is what makes Deathmark any good

[wise trout]

woulda yall say sub or assa is better for priory

[dapper cradle]

Is there a more goated m+ lineup?

[cunning needle]

delete yourself

[runic hinge]

No

Bis

[misty holly]

Lethal Dose is also a pretty significant part of why SBS is good too. Going to bone spike stacks 2 more lethal dose effects giving 4% more damage to all your poison/bleeds.

[snow hamlet]

delete this before whispyr sees

[tacit hedge]

whats the command for chain pulls

!Chain

[runic hinge]

!chainpull

[prisma monolith]

Explanation of why stealth benefits aren't as important as you might think:

• For starters, "Chain pulls" are NOT when the tank pulls a new pack with 1% hp remaining on the previous mobs. That is called "Bad Tanking", and it sucks for everyone in your party.
• Correct Chain pulls usually happen while the previous pack is still alive and not dangerous. This increases uptime on more targets, which is the biggest increase in DPS for the entire party. This is also the biggest reason why you see high key level players doing so much damage.
• Garrote is roughly 7-9% of people's damage in a key, most of which is already empowered/cleaved
• Most energy spreading will come from Rupture to maintain scent of blood, not garrote
• Without a Trace (+1 vanish charge) only grants roughly 2 additional casts across a whole dungeon, but does allow for holding vanish for large chain pulls which improves the quality of each vanish
• You can argue that it "feels bad", but numerically there is very little ground to stand on, the dps simply isn't there.

[balmy condor]

zeros says dumb shit on his stream one time, irreparable damage to the channel for weeks

[fleet pagoda]

holy

i think i'd rather drop deathmark before a lethal dose

[jolly vault]

I’ve come to not trust people with Jerry as their pfp

[dawn heath]

Missing occolus

[haughty flicker]

boy do i have a build for you

[knotty nebula]

I've been playing sub this season so far, and am going to have a try of the new bleed build in M+. I've been simming and comparing different stats through changing gems, enchants, crafts etc. and it seems like there is minimal difference.

Is this just how it is? For example, 3.683M vs 3.633M for a dungeon slice in lately.

Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Or does the spec just not really care too much at my 665 ilvl?

[haughty flicker]

drop dm for iw, swap lingering darkness for symbolic victory, use FI

and thank me later

[waxen oyster]

Does dm duplicate CT

while its up

dont recall

[blazing pumice]

no

[hallow imp]

Can u say the spell names i dont know what you talking about

[dawn heath]

Idk what the fuck is wrong with me whenever i go into duengons i forget to shiv

In raids i do it no issues

I had more Kingsbane casts than shiv in my last key

[robust pulsar]

Just tried the bleed build. I’m a big fan. It’s a lot easier than being sweaty on sub

[buoyant herald]

man im just not a fan of sub

can't handle the downtime i think

[dawn heath]

Assa has down time on st?

[subtle tundra]

its a common misconception

[buoyant herald]

no i mean the downtime between cds where you do healer dps if you're lucky

[subtle tundra]

you can easily do stuff on your 2nd monitor, therefore it has 0 downtime

only dopamine

[buoyant herald]

i GUESS

[dawn heath]

Any tips to make me press shiv

I feel like i mastered everything else pretty well

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/j48JaWxP9h3gtGDL?fight=13&type=damage-done this is probably my worst run by far i just dont know why i dont press it legit

[buoyant herald]

just set up some WA reminders like

when you're sitting on 2 charges

when you're in execute

[dawn heath]

Na in raid i use it

Its in m+

I just dont press it on my cd

[buoyant herald]

probably used to muscle memory with KB which bleed doesn't use yeah?

if there's big bouncing text on your screen saying SHIV then i bet you'll press it more

[still stirrup]

Print out a picture of the shiv icon and stick it to your monitor

[night cipher]

Put raid music in the background so you feel familiar shiv settings

[robust pulsar]

I like all the specs. I just like rogue.

[slate crown]

Shut the up

step away from the lathe

[subtle tundra]

you will get spanked

tonight

[halcyon grail]

Color me peanut butter and jealous.

😮‍💨

[balmy condor]

Idk what color that is

[halcyon grail]

The opposite color of spanked

[subtle tundra]

why would you press shiv in hybrid builld

[dawn heath]

Wdym

[subtle tundra]

you dont shiv in aoe

[deft vault]

i know its not really assa related but ive recently started having this bug where everytime i log on my resolution is reset and its the wrong one. its like too big for my screen and everything is zoomed in and the game spills over to my other screens and i need to set my resolution to default every single time i log on. ANyone else had this and found out a way to fix it?

[dawn heath]

Actually?

[subtle tundra]

its not good for aoe

[dawn heath]

Since when

[subtle tundra]

its good for prio with kb

but not for aoe

since, erm, since a long time

[dawn heath]

I have seen casual addict do it all season last ssn

[halcyon grail]

Hybrid doesn't take talent to make shiv cleave.

[brave stump]

do you have any overlay? Like for example PoE2Exchange does that for me, so have those closed on wow start

[dawn heath]

So shiv doesnt scale spatter?

[subtle tundra]

no it doesnt

[coral ibex]

only with the aoe shiv talent

[dawn heath]

Okay so my trolling is just mild

[deft vault]

i do have a poe overlay downloaded but its not opened all the time?

[coral ibex]

if you just shiv 1 guy and spatter off, the spatter isn't amped by shiv

[subtle tundra]

yeah if theres a prio target and you are kbing it and spamming envenoms, you can slap shiv

[dawn heath]

I see

[brave stump]

If you have if started previously or have that overwolf stuff it could be still running and fiddle with your wow, atleast does for me

i need to manually close it beforehand

[rocky zodiac]

!rik

[prisma monolith]

Rik Reverb Barrels (and similar spread cleave in raid)

• Not your problem.
• Assassination is the worst target swapping spec in the game, and we have no tools available to deal with the situation of priority spread cleave. Caustic can reach sometimes but similar to fire mage, the boss needs to be on top of the adds, causing caustic to often be out of range.
• If you're truly hellbent on swapping to barrels, hold your nearest darkest night and just slam a darkest night envenom into them and pray. If you're quick enough you can also pool combo points/energy and cast a rupture on a barrel to try and caustic off of them. This still will not do good barrel damage, again, the spec is doomed for it
• Another possible option would be talenting into Crimson Tempest by untalenting Bone Spike and Doomblade. This CAN TECHNICALLY provide a bit of barrel damage, but the spawns need to be immaculate and any difficult spawns will just result in no barrel damage again.
  With all that, the best advice we have for swapping barrels:
• Swap to Subtletly.

[rocky zodiac]

Its normal for us at Rik that our damage relies on good Barrel spawns right?

My dam varies pretty hard at rik

[subtle tundra]

yes

[rocky zodiac]

I hate Bosses with such random Elements....

[runic terrace]

!shiv

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

Assassination uses no other macro aside from standard Deathmark+Potion+Racial+Trinket

[grim jay]

Its all just in your head

Fuck barrels

Who cares, unless your mates are dg

[rocky zodiac]

I give a shit about Barrels. Only thing is that it feels meh to play well and not get rewarded cause of weird Barrel spawns.

[grim jay]

Idk if I'd see just parsing better as a reward

The reward is progressing

Sometimes people just care way too much about the numbers

[rocky zodiac]

I mean youre right. But it feels nice to See a nice number after playing well. Like a nice Cherry on the cake

Maybe im just more frustrated than usual cause my guild plays Like Shit this tier

[grim jay]

Hey, same

They also care way too much about stupid things this tier aswell

Like ive never seen as much crying about loot and some people having a reallife

Its actually insane

[rocky zodiac]

I get you. In got called Out because i was Missing 3 times im a row cause i moved. Like wtf?!

[cunning needle]

that's just competition in general

[rocky zodiac]

I even told them months before

[cunning needle]

the thing that people follow/do the most in life

is compete against other people and themselves

[rocky zodiac]

I mean i want to improve myself as well. But thats my Perfektionist Nature. But i think for my 1st season as Sin i handle myself well

[cunning needle]

i think there's a difference between

not getting 100s on every boss

and people being okay with green parsing

people think you need to do everything perfectly

but realistically if you just do your rotation right

youre going to get min 90

[rocky zodiac]

Im right around the 90 Mark right now. So i guess im doing my Rotation right ish xD

[cunning needle]

attalad

[earnest remnant]

thats true for patchwerk fights mostly if there is any sort of deviation with timings, (for pad dmg) if you want good logs you have to plan that out

or on pad fights

play with "bad" people

that helps a ton as well

steal all the pad

[buoyant herald]

i'd disagree, 90 a bit high, lots of other factors like adds, kill times, did you get mechanics etc

[rocky zodiac]

Yeah got screwed by Timing Yesterday. Killed Carnage at 4:09. Right before deathmark got Up again xD

[cunning needle]

okay maybe 90+ is for heroic

probably like 75 for mythic

[golden loom]

4:09?

Heroic then I assume?

[earnest remnant]

only thing you realistically should care about for progress

did boss die? if yes good

did we die to enrage and i did poopy dmg = not good

gotta fix

[buoyant herald]

mmm parsing is for farm

well deliberate parsing is for farm

[rocky zodiac]

Myth. Bit i guess IT was 6;09 then

[golden loom]

Ye 4:09 sounds crazy fast for mythic

[earnest remnant]

can give a pretty good example for gallywix

you wont get a good log on him

unless you time your cds for adds

(which die quite fast)

but there is so many up

[rocky zodiac]

Do you delay DM for Clash on Carnage? Or Just send?

[earnest remnant]

that your dmg sky rockets on them

[buoyant herald]

good example

[earnest remnant]

it does mean sitting on your cds for a bit

[golden loom]

Stuff semi lines up there anyways

[earnest remnant]

but to kill the boss you dont need to have the entire raid do that

[buoyant herald]

this is from dropping a 16m evis crit spattering onto adds right at the end of the fight

[earnest remnant]

1-2 people with cds for each intermission

and you are fine

i might just go full Assa for farm ngl

unless they decide to buff sub

[night vessel]

how important is restealthing with the new bleed build?

[earnest remnant]

either that or i reroll shaman for farm

who knows

[buoyant herald]

About as important as before really

[night vessel]

kk

[blissful spire]

!plater

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[plucky canopy]

Go sin, so I can steal your timings as usual 👀
Until you guys zoom to much where I cannot copy yours anymore

[night vessel]

anyone knows how to make the plater health bar border blink when bleeds are applied? i am new to those settings

[primal egret]

So I haven’t played much sin m+. When going to a key what are the factors you’d consider when choosing between kingsbane vs no kingsbane build?

[blazing pumice]

the consensus is that no kingsbane is just overall better

[primal egret]

I was really surprised at how well it did on bosses

[scarlet wyvern]

hey guys do we use mastery flask or alchemical for M+ ?

[balmy condor]

alchemical

[buoyant herald]

Alc chaos is really only bad for specs that hate one or two stats

[dawn seal]

Guys does anyone know how koffing has a cat border

On the right side

Is it a new featyre

[balmy condor]

beta feature they're testing on random people

[dawn seal]

😭

[loud tusk]

Hi is somewhere written rotation for m+ with bleed build? All guides utilize kingsbane. Or is it the same just wihtout kingsbane?

[balmy condor]

identical without kb

[loud tusk]

Ok thank you:)

[agile wedge]

as iam kinda "forced" to play sin now on later bosses in raid, did anything change from last season? do i need to care about when using shiv, tea, pool some energy the same way like last season, or is there some new stuff around it?

[quiet oar]

"forced" ?

[agile wedge]

its just better on later bosses

[quiet oar]

Isnt Sin only exceptionally better on Mugzee?

[agile wedge]

as per statistics

on endboss i think you need to pad into adds

which is nothing i like to do

so sin could provide more boss dps probably

[buoyant herald]

I mean outlaw gives up one gcd per minute to cleave so it doesn’t exactly get taxed either

[humble ginkgo]

so comfy

[supple spindle]

are there any POV's on yt with the bleed build M+ gameplay?

[sacred schooner]

its the same just minus 1 button

for kb

[earnest remnant]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cRLMcTJCtqfVm7Txmsnvjn
this is with recrafting everything stats wise

[agile wedge]

ty

how much was your sub sim? 2310?

[earnest remnant]

probably

havent checked

[agile wedge]

ah you simmed full st anyway

i saw on mugzee people played cs but without arterial

[golden loom]

sounds weird

[agile wedge]

i checked 4 of the top logs, maybe i picked the cursed ones

[golden loom]

surely even with bleeds being shit, the extra dam from AP should be worth it during burn phase

[balmy condor]

yeh, you'd play arterial just for the execute

[agile wedge]

then mb, thought 4 logs are enough 😄

oki just reading the guide, i would never use my proc of ctw cause iam playing vv?

[golden loom]

if it hits multiple targets its still good

[spice surge]

Also theres mines and/or the caster adds you can hit with shiv so it usually gives more CP

Even if the mobs take 99% less damage

[agile wedge]

in current cleave build, do i need to do some energy shenanigans or can i just send? (save a bit for cd though)

as no sb i can just send i assume

[earnest remnant]

it reads as immune

so not sure it does

[humble ginkgo]

no kingsbane in m+ feels so fucking wrong

idk

am i tweaking

[red schooner]

Nah it's fine

Kingsbane is weak as shit rn

[sacred schooner]

it feels so good, no need to pray that others will choose same target

and it will die way before kb ends

[red schooner]

Also you can get revenge on people blowing up your kingsbane target by demising the target instead

[worthy fable]

@balmy condor Thanks for letting me know about the 5+ cp rule

Got a 97 on stix yesterday

[normal mist]

No problem

[red portal]

Which WA is more beginer friendly? I want to try Assassination on my rogue, i guess Kingsbane and Deathstalker are the imporotant buffs which i need to be monitor?

[royal lantern]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[spice surge]

Ok ye the mines doesnt give cp, but on the adds it does.

[balmy condor]

np

[worthy fable]

shiv, kingsbane, garrote, rupture and darkest night

[royal lantern]

it helps when you realise that kingsbane does less dmg then a DN envenom

KB just got kinda left behind and is not really a big button anymore

[spice surge]

It does slow the mines though with crippling, which is neat, pretty much rooting them without rooting them and ruining their hitbox

[agile wedge]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hSjkTpFesznzgcJyEz6tYx as sub i pull 40k more. sad

and i dont even have hoc

[worthy fable]

im shocked tho cos last season it was like top 5 on dam?

[quiet oar]

The cycle of life can be cruel

[outer sundial]

!tea

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

Assassination uses no other macro aside from standard Deathmark+Potion+Racial+Trinket

[worthy fable]

have you tried simming higher haste over crit?

[royal lantern]

current tier set doesnt buff kb

in m+ they buffed bleeds a good chunk (and buffed CT for some forsaken reason)

so kb got kinda left behind

[worthy fable]

F

[agile wedge]

sorry, dont get what you mean, how can i influence if i dont have the gear

you mean while recraft

to haste mastery?

[worthy fable]

to haste mast or haste crit

[agile wedge]

emb items

[worthy fable]

yeah recraft

[agile wedge]

will check

[worthy fable]

like my neck is crit haste

my bracers crit haste as well

[agile wedge]

doesnt look good, i run one more time

[royal lantern]

Sim

[humble ginkgo]

need fat kingsbane buffs and make it unparrieable

this m+ build lowkey comfy tho

[royal lantern]

parry is THEMATIC bro

more stuff should be able to get parried

and give enemys dodge chances against all skills aswell

and bring spell resist back aswell

[frosty nebula]

how do sou guys track , how manny ruptures and garrotes you did on aoe pack ? on name plates or you just run and and press idk 3 times garote and 3 times rupture?

[agile wedge]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ijC36cQTWeVvv165ysv1ZA it still wants crit mast, but sadly i miss a lot of overall dmg

[spice surge]

Need to able to play the bleed build in raid so we can do anything that isnt hit boss, cleave and hope everyone else does enough damage on adds

[humble ginkgo]

I prefer the raid build doe

its like

1:1 to last tier

[boreal pike]

hi guys i see alot poeple on raider io still running with kingsbane is that still a better build?

for m+

[red schooner]

Both can work fine in m+ just play what you enjoy

People have pushed high keys in both hybrid and bleed build

It's chill

[dawn seal]

Is there a way to sim race

[silent drift]

in subterfuge

im assuming you press ambush over mutilate, right?

[stuck knoll]

Mut becomes ambush

In stealth

[balmy condor]

well not automatically

[frosty nebula]

wait what

[balmy condor]

but most people put ambush on their stealth bar

and should

[frosty nebula]

is there macro for it maybe to automaticly change i stealth?

[balmy condor]

I mean just put it on your stealth bar

[worthy fable]

i wonder if its a pacemaker thing?

whispyr, does pacemaker favor crit or haste?

[stuck knoll]

Hmm this is my bad then I forgot stealth bar was different it has been the same except ambush for mut for so long

[balmy condor]

pacemaker doesn't favor anything, it's a trinket

[worthy fable]

XD

[balmy condor]

the only thing pacemaker does is give you crit

which should theoretically make crit worse

but there's so much more to it than just having pacemaker vs not having pacemaker

[frosty nebula]

how do sou guys track , how manny ruptures and garrotes you did on aoe pack ? on name plates or you just run and and press idk 3 times garote and 3 times rupture?

[balmy condor]

both kinda

I track it on nameplates, but you just use gar instead of fok until everything's got it

slam a couple ruptures depending on group size

gg

[worthy fable]

i like slamming ruptures until u have no more bonespikes, theoretically a minimum of 5 should have rupture for max agi %, garrotes are easier to slam

[balmy condor]

I mean you spend all your bone spikes in 1 cast

that's not really something to care about

[frosty nebula]

how important is the wa for tier set ? whats the min maxing % of it

[balmy condor]

0

we don't track the tier set

[worthy fable]

yeah this aint sub

whispyr, have you tried the difference between sending more garrotes or just ct spatter envenoms?

[balmy condor]

what

garrote is a generator

[worthy fable]

i meant ruptures

xd

[spice surge]

Sub doesnt really play around their tier much either

[balmy condor]

I mean yeah I've tried the difference

[worthy fable]

i mean they do for raid, aligning win streak with cds

[balmy condor]

that's why the bleed build is the way it is

and the pins say what they say

[spice surge]

No they dont

[worthy fable]

i feel like its beneficial tho

like ur cds are up in 4 seconds

do you not rather hold the evis than sending it?

on the offchance of removing the streka

[vale lantern]

It’ll build back up just send it

Don’t need to over think it

[worthy fable]

ok so we are sending ruptures over envenoms with bleed build?

This season is just shattering what I thought I knew about rogue 🤡

[balmy condor]

you send ruptures until all the big mobs have rupture

[grim jay]

Shouldnt shatter anything if you know why you were doing something

[worthy fable]

Yeah its just interesting how the prios change, haven't been this into learning in a while

[shy axle]

fully demised rupture means mob under 35% and shiv active?

[worthy fable]

btw whispyr, the CT WA that you have linked in the pin, can I replace your CT tracker in the WA with that one?

[balmy condor]

they're the same?

[spice surge]

Fully demised rupture means you get literally 0 ticks of the rupture on the mob because it instantly get demised

[worthy fable]

Oh I havent updated it in that case

cos i have some changes made to it

[shy axle]

thank you

and the aggressively rupturing from the pins means what whispyr said, all big mobs have rupture?

[spice surge]

Get 5 scent stacks > CT > apply rupture to the rest of the big buys

[austere basin]

eventhough its is champion track gear is the mechano-core this strong?

[balmy condor]

what an interesting sim

[granite leaf]

yeah

I have 0 questions, time to farm champion MCA

[balmy condor]

would assume whatever the hell you're simming doesn't like crit anymore

[radiant raven]

Why is it saying 18 million damage

[balmy condor]

it's probably like 10 target 40 second or some insane shit

[radiant raven]

I want to do that much damage 😦

[hearty reef]

12 targets 45s

[red schooner]

I wish I could hit 18 mil on 10 targets what the hell

[granite leaf]

First room of brew pulled together 😄

[hearty reef]

Bro is simming first pack

[granite leaf]

On an 8

[hearty reef]

Actually galaxy brain

[red schooner]

I thought I was doing good last night on a cinderbrew but then the UHDK went wild

And it's just oh okay then

[balmy condor]

blood is life!

[spice surge]

Crit doesnt work for demise so i wont have any crit

[red schooner]

I guess I'm here

[balmy condor]

you're a menace

[hearty reef]

And haste too

[earnest remnant]

well he is swedish

[hearty reef]

If bleleds tick too fast

There wont be any left for demise!

[spice surge]

Hey now, youre an allstar

[radiant raven]

Question: am I right that you can just macro HoC to Deathmark?

[red schooner]

Ye

[worthy fable]

friend hit 40M on first pack yesterday x)

[radiant raven]

Hell yeah

[red schooner]

Yeah and it's just, OH OKAY THEN I GUESS THIS IS A CARRY RUN

I almost beat him on overall I clawed my way back

But pack 1, fucking wild

[buoyant pumice]

Whats this number on garr? Its on Afenars and it seems to be counting down from 6

[spice surge]

DKs are casino, if the blood is merciful you do insane dps, if not then you do good dps

[worthy fable]

its the cd @buoyant pumice

[spice surge]

But for us

Bleed is life

[worldly loom]

hey guys, do we use crimson tempest in single target? (raidbots does, but I dont see it in the guides)

[hearty reef]

[spice surge]

for the bleed build yes (its in the guides, and the pins)

[red schooner]

Yeah he popped off sometimes but I was just kinda consistent high aoe damage so it balanced a bit

[worthy fable]

on m+ bleed build yes, read pinned comment ^^

[granite leaf]

Very similar. You will want to Crimson Tempest in Single Target, maintaining this is a priority over a regular envenom, Darkest Night envenom is higher priority. Use Mutilate/Ambush 3 targets, and shiv for AoE with arterial precision. ```

[worldly loom]

ty 🙂

[red schooner]

Also bee boss in cinderbrew, fun boss for bleed build, even with me being the main bee person

[kind forge]

With out his first pull I also would have beaten my dk friend

But insane blood beast proc

[granite leaf]

We did a couple of keys with blood and uh dks, the uh dk got ruined by the blood dks blood is life rng

[spice surge]

Ye blood can also do insane damage if they get good procs

[granite leaf]

That feeling as a non-dk when you see a blood beast wandering round aimlessly after a pull

[spice surge]

You can grip and rescue the blood beast

[granite leaf]

[quiet oar]

wdym, you dont do 19 Millon dps?

[red schooner]

Time to bribe my guilds evoker

[buoyant pumice]

lol

[red schooner]

Time to rescue it away from the pack then

NO DAMAGE FOR YOU TODAY FUCKER

[spice surge]

You could do that yes

[red schooner]

I'm currently working on convincing the evoker I run keys with to do this

[spice surge]

Give PI but grip the blood beast, priest giveth and priest taketh

[red schooner]

Grip beast away, demise mobs, no blood beast for you

Good day sir

[spice surge]

There may or may not exist a weakaura that specifically tracks the beasts and glows when you should be gripping it

[red schooner]

Do you know the name of this weakaura? Just so I can tell my guilds evoker of its existence so he knows to steer clear of it

Of course

[humble cradle]

Is there any merit to paying attention to stat weights from
sim or is it always necessary to just sim items individually?

I really only ask because I did stat weights out of curiosity and versatility came out on top, vers>mast>haste>crit.

Playing bleed build m+ btw

[red schooner]

We don't care about stats just sim your upgrades

It'll be fine

[spice surge]

I unironically dont, but ive seen it linked before

[red schooner]

I'll do some digging when I'm at home I need this

[austere basin]

what is the best settings for sim for m+, just go dungeon slice or something else

[grim jay]

Just dslice no buffs except bl

[austere basin]

okey

[worthy fable]

so for m+, do we wanna sit around the 10% haste mark and rest on crit mast? or do we wanna pump more into haste?

[buoyant pumice]

With the bleed build, Do we use FOK on 3 or more targrets?

[worthy fable]

4+

[buoyant pumice]

Alright ty

[grim jay]

It might come as a surprise

But we wanna sim our gear

[grim jay]

!fok

[prisma monolith]

Fok Conditions Post-Buff
Fan of Knives as a generator to replace ambush/mutilate:

• Baseline 3+ targets, -1 if talented into momentum of despair and thrown precision, +1 if talented into vicious venoms, +1 if talented into blindside. (Generally 5 with raid build, 3 with Bleed m+, 2 with Hybrid m+)
  Fan of Knives with Clear the Witnesses Up:
• Baseline 2+ targets, -1 if lingering darkness is up or you aren't talented into vicious venoms. With Vicious Venoms casting during lingering darkness is dps neutral.
  Fan of Knives with Darkest Night Up:
• Only on 2+ targets, or without Vicious Venoms talented. This is also a very very minor optimization

The most important to remember is the generator rules, clear the witnesses and darkest night optimizations can be effectively ignored as they are not meaningful DPS improvements

[grim jay]

So its 3 and more for bleed

[normal mist]

Why 10% haste?

Where does that number come from

[red schooner]

Yeah the number is clearly 11.23%

Dunno where the fuck they got 10 from

[autumn gyro]

in say CB first pull you have over 8 mobs, are we trying to rupture an garrote on all mobs or is it 6 max ?

[normal mist]

5 ruptures at least

Many garrotes

Go brrrr

[red schooner]

Ye use garrotte as your combo point generator when the indiscriminate carnage is up instead of FoK, at least until all mobs have improved garrote on them

Big damage many demise

[autumn gyro]

ty

[austere basin]

ive been told by a evoker friend that going patchwerk 7 targets is good to see your dps in m+ trash

[balmy condor]

what

how weird

[kind forge]

Don’t trust evoker Friends having a single clue how rogue sims work

Or how rogue works in general

[balmy condor]

I mean to be fair

evoker is moving away from dungeonslice

they probably recommend 5t and 1t

or MDT

[red schooner]

Weird, how come?

[royal lantern]

but why

[balmy condor]

every sim has upsides and downsides

their TC cluster sees MDT as the future

similar to the spriest TC's, they have stuff auto-setup to sim like 6 hour long multi-dungeon composite routes

and they use that for their things

[final star]

I swear they all spit out basically the same result anyway

[balmy condor]

which is like kinda where we're headed in the future of simming

but yeah, KPB got ahead of me

when we ran those tests in shadowlands with covenant swapping and stuff and all the "is kyrian > venthyr in keys" and shit

we did like weeks long extensive comparisons

and the only thing that we got out of it was "theater of pain likes cleave, and otherwise dungeonslice is basically the same thing"

basically every route and dungeon we ran ended up spitting out the same stuff as dungeonslice

it like re-enchanted for haste in one dungeon or crit in other dungeon

but all in all they overlapped heavily

so with that investigation, we've kinda ignored MDT and stuck with dungeonslice

the downside to MDT is that it's ripe to be used incorrectly

[spice surge]

And that it takes forever to actually run

[balmy condor]

it's more work for people to setup, it's very easy to just make some dumbfuck route, it's very easy to sim yourself into a rabbit hole over and over

and just overfit your gear to one specific route and dungeon

MDT sims not having variance in execution is a big problem for its accuracy

which is like, the main downside

[spice surge]

And then the boomkin dies in cds and everything is out of order

Because now pack A takes 30s longer

[balmy condor]

dungeonslice is problematic the other way, where it's very generic, so you can argue it's less accurate to an actual dungeon

which is a valid, and serious concern for dungeonslice

it's part of why I hate it

[subtle tundra]

the mdt didnt account for my dumbfuck teammates bodypulling 3 packs

[balmy condor]

patchwerk sims, especially for rogues though, don't factor in things like restealths and chainpulls and all that stuff

[subtle tundra]

[balmy condor]

so patchwerk sims are just out of the question for us

that's not happening

it's good to see one specific pull or like "big aoe"

but for a dungeon it's kinda worthless

[grim jay]

So we are about to end up in a full on circle where we follow BiS lists to not run massive sims ourself, which then evolves into simplified sims for gearing (dslice) again and turns into mdt sooner or later to complete the circle. (yes I skip statweight sims even as a joke)

Life is a simulation

[balmy condor]

yeah

I mean right now sims are getting more and more complex

accounting for more talent setups, more situations

more hero talents

single target, cleave, aoe, dungeonslice, mdt

add waves spawning

long fights, short fights

so the crossroad is which poison do you take

do you stick with dungeonslice, and poison yourself with an overly generic model of a dungeon, but it's easy to use, gives very consistent and generally well-rounded results

[royal lantern]

deadly and amp ofc

[grim jay]

I'd personally definitely stick with dslice

[balmy condor]

or do you move to recommending MDT sims, which have no variance, and overfit the model, and requires players to have more knowledge, and not fuck themselves over

and I'm not saying there's a right or a wrong here

some TC clusters, like hunters and evokers

[final star]

easiest thing to understand is what the tool is for; deciding on what gear to equip

[balmy condor]

they see MDT as the future of dungeon simming, and they're in on MDT

that's fine

[final star]

the number it gives is kind of irrelevant

[placid mist]

I just sim myself on st for raid and don't worry about switching non-trinket gear between raid and m+

[final star]

for the choice you make

[balmy condor]

but for rogues, our evaluation is that MDT isn't there yet

and we're sticking to dungeonslice

as flawed as that may end up being

[final star]

another problem with mdt sim is you can't do > pull this pack when x mob dies in this pack

[balmy condor]

yeah

chainpulling is definitely problematic on MDT sims

which dungeonslice actually does naturally through variance

mob waves on dungeonslice spawn on a timer, and that timer randomizes itself

so you end up with longer stealths, shorter stealths

and even overlaps where the next wave spawns with the last dying

like that's the power of dungeonslice, where it's able to just do it all kinda

[red schooner]

Same but I don't push m+ so winging it is fine probs

[grim jay]

It is fine, you can do whatever in 10s

[woeful zenith]

so do you ONLY use mega magnet during lingering darkness?

[balmy condor]

yes

[red schooner]

But yeah that was interesting to read in regards to the slice thing, I don't really know about the behind the scenes of this stuff. I just send my simc into top gear and equip the bigger number for I am a simple man

[royal lantern]

thats literally how almost everyone should use sims

[grim jay]

Simple and smart men can always just follow what Whispyr recommends you to do

Which is exactly that

[royal lantern]

its just very popular to make it overly complicated for no reason

[red schooner]

I don't trust myself to make changes to it so, I just trust the robot

[balmy condor]

there's a ton of sim convos happening basically all the time

it's just not something normal people need to give a shit about tbh

[red schooner]

It's interesting to learn about at least

[balmy condor]

it would be the equivalent of just googling random research papers to read

like yeah it's interesting but why did you spend an afternoon reading about the biomechanics of tree frogs

[twilit flint]

someone say tree frogs?

[balmy condor]

you put simc in, you get recommendation out

[grim jay]

Knowledge?

[placid mist]

Autism ™️

[balmy condor]

and the shit in the middle you can leave to experts

[grim jay]

[balmy condor]

that's what I'm here for

[red schooner]

Listen sometimes the Wikipedia deep dives take you to strange places

[spice surge]

Except when the recommendation doesnt align with my worldveiw, then i call it sim bait

[grim jay]

I really wonder about the biomechanics of a treefrog now tho

[balmy condor]

yeah true and if I ask an expert for an opinion on a recommendation and I don't like what they said, they're low io shit player

[grim jay]

But you arent anymore

[balmy condor]

I mean I am

I'm still fighting comcast

[grim jay]

You are Whispyr of pushing keys

[sudden kelp]

So would you use bleed build in TOP?

[red schooner]

Ye

[grim jay]

The intent is important

[hidden bay]

Hybrid been bussin frfrfr

[grim jay]

Bleed everywhere

[balmy condor]

you would use sub

[red schooner]

Even in raid

[balmy condor]

but yeah idk top might be a hybrid angle

I'm ngl

[spice surge]

Most bosses have adds in top

So sub doesnt actually do that much more from what ive seen

[twilit flint]

someone make our ST better

thanks.

[balmy condor]

yeah but necro wing is like 2-5 target all the way through, and bleed loses for those

idk

this is where MDT sims could be useful

but I haven't decided how best to model variance on that

[spice surge]

Like on the green add spawning boss, if you can get your group to not kill the adds and you just slow them

Assa gonna do way more than sub on that boss

[balmy condor]

true

I think assa probably better in xav wing too

[grim jay]

The Abom Boss aswell, no?

[spice surge]

Demise goes hard on banners on xav

[balmy condor]

abom I think questionable

[royal lantern]

wait

im a normie?

[balmy condor]

yeah demise on banners is huge

[sudden kelp]

normcore ftw

[balmy condor]

I think assa maybe on abom just because of 3 target CT's

[grim jay]

It kinda felt like a lot last time, but I dont really have a comparison

[red schooner]

Demise on allies in duels was huge initially as well

[balmy condor]

but it's not all that easy

top and workshop

are kinda the two ?????? keys

the rest I think is a very obvious bleed win

[grim jay]

The only TOP I did with bleed was a 10 with 4.1m overall