assassination

[iron carbon]

Not in my keys

[humble verge]

hmm

then idk famalam

[iron carbon]

Playing the best dps spec of game and behind behin me on dps

kinda suss

[humble verge]

but also

you should have like this mindset

that for every 19/20 keys

will probably deplete

IF youre pushing higher than what you have

per say going from a 12 to 13

or maybe even 11 to 12

[iron carbon]

Like playing Pal tank and have less kick than dps

[humble verge]

i struggled at the 12 point

[humble verge]

that sounds like a problem

D:

[iron carbon]

It is

People wanna do 12 by playing stupid meta class

[spice surge]

Cant do much besides focus on your own performance

And go next

[iron carbon]

I was trying to help a friend time his 12

I nearly lost my mental health this afternoon

The 12 point is just full of trash

It's the current rio hell

[humble verge]

💀

[warm vortex]

I think it wasss

Idk what the healer died to btw

but i belive first boss vomit (i think)
then die... rez die breath

[humble verge]

i dont even know what defensives enhance got

[sudden sigil]

627 atm with good trinkets aswell im around 1.1 ST with BL on a 3-4 mins

Feel its low still

[humble verge]

ST in m+?

or raid

[sudden sigil]

M+ bosses

[humble verge]

damn

either youre doing lowkeys or idk

im sitting on like

900-1m

but im doing 14s

[sudden sigil]

its just a 12

[iron carbon]

It's the normal damages

[warm vortex]

Yea i feel like assa dps is dogwater

2ST m+

ofc

*st m+

[iron carbon]

Assa ST in M+ build is trash

[warm vortex]

not aoe or raid st

[humble verge]

db first boss +14

idk why the other two were pisslow but

xd

[warm vortex]

Beefpapi

what a gamer

[iron carbon]

Without lust, I feel so low

[tropic hull]

Unholy have not are greatest st in m+ also, no?

[humble verge]

this was the overall after brick saj

[iron carbon]

Even with, but especially without

[humble verge]

nah but it was his key

[lunar sleet]

Hi, does anyone have a problem with Caustic Spatter, when I cast it on an enemy in a raid in a fight where there are more than 2-3 targets, I start to get huge lags

[tropic hull]

Is lags like fps going down or what

[sudden sigil]

how the fuck is vspeed doingm 3.5mil dps on the dual targetgs in SV

Jesus christ

[lunar sleet]

fps going down and sometimes game just freeze before adds dont die

[limber lion]

By pressing the same buttons everyone else should be pressing

[sudden sigil]

Its completly absurd

[limber lion]

I don't think it's that absurd

He's 637 ilvl

Playing with an Aug and a Holy Priest

[humble verge]

holy 🤨

[limber lion]

Disc*

whatever

[humble verge]

idk if i should just hope i can get queen ring from cheesing the vault or not

[slate crown]

what do you mean?

[humble verge]

your last slot if you just put whatever the heroic boss

you can cheese it so you only get their loottable

instead of more bosses

or i might be wrong

but it worked last week

when i got queen shoulders

[slate crown]

I'm pretty sure that vault slots

are any item from any boss you've killed that season

like, ever

[humble verge]

nah

dont think thats the case

[subtle tundra]

Probably pulled mobs onto boss

We do that

[humble verge]

^

same

[sudden sigil]

Now this makes sence

Thanks for helping my monkey brain

[spice spire]

No, LE is right, that's the how it functions

if you kill only queen only

you get queen and all bosses before

[humble verge]

guh what

hmmm

well im testing this

[spice spire]

that changed this season or last

[humble verge]

if i get anything besides queen loot

it makes sense

[spice spire]

and if you just so happen to roll and get it?

[humble verge]

then ill say

my theory is right

🧌 face

[shy axle]

is it a me-issue or do daggers worn on your sides not wobble anymore and instead just staying there rock solid?

[humble verge]

wobble in walking-animation?

[shy axle]

yup

[humble verge]

cause mine wobble with the walking animation

but are still rock solid

so that might confirm your suspicioun

they dont wobble on their own

[tropic hull]

I suspect addon eating cpu in that case. Could be wa or details if updates too frequently

[humble verge]

ive realised my PC has become too bad for wow, kinda sad

[slate crown]

chad anecdote believer vs virgin probability fan

you got this

[humble verge]

https://tenor.com/view/todo-aoi-todo-bruh-ping-pong-table-tennis-gif-11193322147763516631

[tropic hull]

Nah, performance nowadays is bottlenecked by cpu most of the time

Like when gpu is 20% utilization and your fps below 60

You know that your cpu is struggling a lot

[humble verge]

like

i was almost crashing on ovi

with like

mid-graphics rofl

now im running all low

and i still get fps bombed

btw, has anyone here made WW considering its ""possibly"" the new FOTM

[pure moth]

This is correct

[humble verge]

i am still coping

[limber lion]

It was that way for the entire Dragonflight

Crazy thinking that killing Queen last would guarantee you a Queen item in the vault though

[humble verge]

so it doesnt even matter if i do the whole raid then

[limber lion]

That's the craziest thing I've heard

[humble verge]

well it kinda did this week but, i just got lucky i guess out of all the items xd

[limber lion]

You'd think everyone who clears mythic

[tropic hull]

Yea, changing graphic settings not helping much either, because basically what happen is your GPU is waiting until CPU done calculations. Graphic settings usually affect only gpu performance so

[limber lion]

would only get Queen items from the vault then

That makes no sense whatsoever lol

[humble verge]

no

queen on heroic

atleast on last slot

[limber lion]

Yeah no

[humble verge]

alrighty

[limber lion]

It's tied to unique boss kills

If you only kill Queen ever and never kill anything else

Then you will only get Queen loot

[humble verge]

now that makes more sense

[limber lion]

But the vault requires more kills to even pop up

[humble verge]

yea

well

what if you were to like

start only doing mythic 5 first bosses

and 1 queen kill on a new char

would it work that way then

[limber lion]

If you're benched from Rashanan and you never kill it but still clear the raid in its entirety every week

You will never ever see a Rashan item in the vault

[limber lion]

Think about it

[humble verge]

ye aight

[limber lion]

If you kill 6 bosses

Then you get loot from the pool from those 6 bosses

The order you kill anything does not matter

[humble verge]

my brain is just fried on sundays ngl

was up till 6am

sadge

also maybe im just stupid

[limber lion]

Vault would be completely useless if it worked the way you thought

Reclearing bosses would make no sense

But yeh

[spice surge]

Nah theyve changed it

If you kill a boss after the boss in question it will drop the items

So if you kill brood or kyveza it will open up rashanan for your vault

[limber lion]

There you go

That's a more recent change then yeah

[spice surge]

After vault

[limber lion]

That's good

[spice surge]

Think it does exceptions for when you have choices on what to kill, like if you kill kyveza i dont think it opens up broodtwister loot

But killing court opens up both of kyveza+brood anyway

[leaden cypress]

on rashan, does caustic hit adds?

[spice surge]

If theyre really close yes

[limber lion]

If the adds are on top of the boss, yeah

[limber lion]

Yeah that makes sense.

[warm vortex]

Fatebound feels like a trinket

change my mind

[tired girder]

whats the usual m+ build now? guide still has sudden demise but i dont see many playing that, more people playing twist the knife / sanguine blades

[subtle tundra]

nah. they changed it
you unlock all the loot

[stuck jacinth]

Lotta people drop SD for TTK for more prio dmg I think versus overall bleed dmg

[limber lion]

Yes

We talked about this already 15mins ago

[subtle tundra]

i only saw your misinformation

smh

[limber lion]

Well learn to read I guess unlucky

[limber lion]

You can literally play anything you want, it doesn't really matter

All the choices are very close to each other

[forest spoke]

when prio damage is needed on lower hp targets (think skarmorak shards or air burst totems in SV), should i be garroting/rupturing those, or just mut/env spam

[spice surge]

Darkest night em on skarmorak

[forest spoke]

k, and stuff like totems?

[spice surge]

If you dont have darkest night pray your team solves it

Can toss an envenom but it doesnt do shit

Def not rupture though

[forest spoke]

ty

[iron carbon]

We agree, 1.85M is low for MIST 13+?

[grim jay]

depends entirely on your team

[iron carbon]

Asking to compare on average ppl experience

But yes, I know it depends tanks / Maze and comp

[grim jay]

well its not an experience thing as those are different aswell. I usually am never below 2m on mists, but that doesnt offer you much

[iron carbon]

Maybe having low dps on ST kinda fcked the overall

[grim jay]

ye certainly does

[iron carbon]

Got an instant dead on miniboss

[trail locust]

Why would I listen you!!!!

[iron carbon]

Didn't finish first boss after second amp

[trail locust]

I dont think you even play the game

[spice surge]

Forge your own path

[patent hare]

Hi, outside of cooldowns (mark / kingsbane) do I hold envenom at 5+ cp if current envenom debuff is still above 4-5 seconds and pool energy or do I just send it as soon as I hit the cps? New ass player.

[iron carbon]

Depends your energy

150 just send envenom

[patent hare]

below hold?

okay

[iron carbon]

if not, wait for pandemic

[patent hare]

huge, felt much better doing that....

[north cliff]

hi guys! playing with subterfuge i have the problem from ancient times having ambush and mutilate on the same keybind - do i just have to give ambush a new key or is there another way?

[spice surge]

Whats the issue

[limber lion]

You should be using Ambush whenever it's available.

It's fine that the keybind automatically changes

[north cliff]

getting caustic spatter up sooner

[spice surge]

Ambush applies spatter

[north cliff]

it does?

[spice surge]

Yes

[north cliff]

damn wow im dumb

[spice surge]

Nvm my previous message i deleted Ambush does apply it

[north cliff]

it doesnt say so on the talent

i never tried

looks like it works though! thank you very much

[limber lion]

Yeah tooltips can be a bit funky sometimes

In Dragonflight you had to use Mutilate to apply it, but they made Ambush work as well later on

[obtuse phoenix]

New to assas but loving it a lot

My fav DPS alt so far

[limber lion]

Nice

[sleek spear]

!tea

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

[slow marsh]

Hey guys, new rogue here. Just wondering what the best way to get to 640 ilvl might be. Should I keep attempting to climb delves or should I do some m+ and push 20s

And what gear should I be looking to craft

[timber meadow]

can someone explain math to me - I see that a lot of people are vanishing early on court and then cleaving garrotes for 100% on the improved garrotes ... but even though the dmg amp doesn't last the full duration of an improved garrote, wouldn't applying an improved garrote+dm during the amp be more than having non-dm empowered improved garrotes on both mobs?

cause dm+dmg amp is lik duplicated improved garrotes with 100% dmg amp so like 300% or wtvr?

[shy creek]

Its possivle youre missing the point which is the reapplication of deathstalker mark

Sometimes if you dont get to swap darkest night youll instantly vanish early fornit

But if thats not the case then no clue

[timber meadow]

well in the logs of people vanishing early, they are dm'ing during the dmg amp which is after the improved garrotes they applied earlier expire

[royal lantern]

i really really really REALLY doubt you gonna push 20s when the highest keys in the world rn are +17, which only a handfull of people actually did

[subtle tundra]

🤨
640?
+20?

[subtle tundra]

well theres a 19
and a lot of 18s

[royal lantern]

oh, so it allready got higher?

well, point is still the same tbh

[humble verge]

yeah, them basky chinese got 1

[coral ibex]

gotta be a bit

[subtle tundra]

how tf are the chinese so bad in mdi and then the best at high keys

[limber lion]

Damn how did ya'll get baited

By a regular nonetheless

[coral ibex]

hey guys i’m thinking about pushing WF keys, can anyone recommend a talent build?

[subtle tundra]

one sec

[timber meadow]

ceverion do you know the answer to my confusion? or are you only heroic this tier

[chilly mist]

Haven't raided in a while, do we still finish on 5cp or on whichever combopoint would get us to 5? With supercharger

[earnest remnant]

ESC-Logout-Create a new character-Select Shaman

[coral ibex]

but shaman just got nerfed

your bit is obsolete

gg no re

[limber lion]

Improved Garry's are a bit whatever honestly. I would just use Vanish together with DM/Kingsbane mainly for the MA bonus at the end.

[subtle tundra]

ele got buffed

L

[earnest remnant]

gg no re

[limber lion]

5+ always yeah

[earnest remnant]

not up to date with the tuning

[limber lion]

If you have Supercharge, you still build to 5+

[novel star]

^

supercharger cps go over the cap so

its just an 8cp finisher basically

[chilly mist]

sick, ty all ❤️

[limber lion]

We settle on 5+ CP because it's the most efficient one without overcapping points.

Np

[north cliff]

whats the reasoning behind taking sanguine blades over sudden demise?

[timber meadow]

okay, I was kinda leaning that direction just for simplicity thx but then I was also just curious about which approach was technically more dmg just cause now I cant unsee it

[limber lion]

If you're doing higher keys where you want more AoE damage and don't benefit from the loss prevention of Sudden Demise as much.

[north cliff]

what about 12/13s

[limber lion]

Honestly it doesn't really matter, the difference is minimal. As long as you use Vanish on cooldown, you're chilling

[limber lion]

Just use Sang

It honestly doesn't matter

[north cliff]

and do you have to care more about being above 50% energy then

[limber lion]

No, you care about it less

Playstyle is the exact same

They're both passive increases in damage which don't affect gameplay in any real way

Especially if you play TTK

[north cliff]

and what would u drop for iron wire in that scenario

between TTK - sang und sudden demise

[limber lion]

Sudden Demise

Or Sang

Again, you're thinking too much about it

[north cliff]

youd have to choose 1 right playing master assasin

[limber lion]

The gain/loss is literally +-0

You probably won't even tell the difference

Sang will show up on Details so it's easier to spot, but Sudden Demise increases all bleed damage

They're both basically the same value

[novel star]

why is iron wire not talented in the first place

[north cliff]

dont need it in every dungeon i suppose

[novel star]

the question should be what are we dropping iron wire for and the answer is nothing

unless you are pushing insanely high keys

[north cliff]

12s/13s

[novel star]

just take iron wire

[north cliff]

with double vanish and iron wire you would have to choose a combination between: MA - Sang - TTK and Sudden

[limber lion]

Yes

[novel star]

yeah

so choose something

[north cliff]

what are you playing here ?

[novel star]

theyre all about the same anyway

[limber lion]

We've gone over this discussion already

Wait

You asked this question three times now

[novel star]

literally you can play ANY combination of the 4 and be fine

[limber lion]

And I've answered you 3 times now

[novel star]

cev wasnt just makign it up

[limber lion]

What is unclear

[novel star]

we have multiple hundreds of possible build combinations for m+ that are all perfectly fine and justifiable

pick whatever the fuck you want

[north cliff]

ok ok so you say its basically the same

[novel star]

it doesnt matter

[north cliff]

i get it

[novel star]

its not "basically the same, but theres a 2% better option that im just dulling down to not mattering because im lazy about the discussion"

[limber lion]

I even told you what I would drop

[novel star]

they are THE SAME

flip a coin man

roll a die

[limber lion]

And what the reasoning is behind sang vs demise if at all

[novel star]

ttk>sd and ma>sb are both st>aoe choices

[gloomy blaze]

So which one do yall play specifically

Im kidding

[novel star]

whatever i feel like

[limber lion]

In low keys where I help my friends out I play a full bleed build without Kingsbane

[novel star]

sometimes i think the ttk node looks sexy and i just wanna click it

for fun

[fresh kelp]

fun?

[lean aurora]

What do you guys think of dropping Serrated Bone Spikes and Doomblade, apart from the CP generation in aoe those talents seem very useless

[novel star]

they both count for lethal dose

[limber lion]

Hell no

I'm never dropping SBS

Probably one of the best feeling talents in the game

[lean aurora]

Oh got it

[limber lion]

Doomblade is dogshit for sure

SBS is really strong

[north cliff]

ok i guess i go Iron+Masterassasin+Sang - thanks for the advice

[limber lion]

Np

[north cliff]

has anyone thought about Kingsbane vs TTK?

[sleek moat]

Have a few questions about enchants for Assassination. Depths is rec by Icy, but looks like it's kinda meh. Been having good results with Storms, but wondering what the ICD is and if dualing Storms is big brain or mega bad.

Any thoughts or am I doing this Ye Olde Fasyin'd Way?

[limber lion]

You play Kingsbane everywhere.

[limber lion]

You should either play Depths or Radiant Power.

Doesn't really matter which one. Radiant is slightly better in aoe/mythic+.

[timber meadow]

dependeing on gear, radiant can also be better on st

[sleek moat]

Depths really looks awful. Even at three stacks it looks really low, at least at a glance

I can see Radiant

[spice surge]

Depths typically slightly better on pure ST, but its like 0.2% better at ST but at the cost of -1% on aoe

so just go radiant

[sleek moat]

Is it the usual "ignore the tooltip it's way off' business?

[spice surge]

Well depths stacks up

Nothing wrong with the tooltip of it in particular

[sleek moat]

I saw, but it's unimpressive based on said tooltip

[limber lion]

You shouldn't base of any decisions on tooltips alone, ever.

Just listen to the robot and the theorycrafters.

And play Radiant Power.

[sleek moat]

Oy I hate that robot. ;p

[timber meadow]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4T6mmuXiBWYxk84pTqVixY its marginal but depths is like always a slight downgrade for me on st

[sleek moat]

Interesting. Also hilarious they're still using Patch for sims, ha.

Thanks for the input though, really appreciate it.

[limber lion]

That's just the name of the sim type

It's just a static single target simulation.

Np

[humble verge]

dang

supposed to do princess prog today

but not enough signups

sadge

[timber meadow]

pugging princess prog : /

salute to you sir

[humble verge]

pugging

what

no

[timber meadow]

oh like internal guild signups i see

[humble verge]

yes

pretty normal :d

[timber meadow]

yeah tbh i forgot we technically have signups too

dont think ive clicked on the attendance piece of that in a while

now that they nerfed a lot of these fights, throughput is super irreelvant, its just entirely mechanic checks (not that it isn't usually like this)

[shy axle]

is there a special plater profile you would recommend ? i am using the standard bars right now and big pulls are quite messy

[iron carbon]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[iron carbon]

Can also share mine if you want

[shy axle]

thank you, thought those are only wa-packs. i will look into it

if you want, sure. thank you

[iron carbon]

https://wago.io/DvXddrC5E

Press all button and took a screenshot if you want

https://wago.io/5FWtjYFgC/1 It's the DN tracker

[slow marsh]

I wish I had my old plater + WA packs

I'm legit sad I deleted them

[iron carbon]

😦

I understand

I would be sad if I deleted my WA edit and plater too

[vivid mulch]

dk is 617

he died 10+ times

Im losing my mind

whats the thing called to unlock ring socket

[humble verge]

setting

[vivid mulch]

ty

Btw other than the consumes we sin roques need on wowhead

are there any more good ones?

[humble verge]

eh

i use r2 pot, r2 hp pot, r2 alch flask

r3 mana oil

nothing else that comes to mind

you COULD buy jumper cables just in case

i have like 10 in my bag

[vivid mulch]

alr, also what enchants do we use on rings?

murlok says mastery 315

[coral ibex]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[humble verge]

that really depends on your stats tbh

[coral ibex]

read here

[humble verge]

just sim

im using cursed haste

[vivid mulch]

hate??

haste*

[humble verge]

just look at the guides :3

[novel star]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vivid mulch]

I tried simming, but i still dont fully understand it lol

[humble verge]

its just a represantation of what you could be able to do

with your class

[vivid mulch]

ye

ayo just noticed i got speed on it

[humble verge]

got leech on my sob ring

and skardyn :d

[vivid mulch]

damn

so youre using double haste huh

interesting

[humble verge]

nay

cursed haste

[vivid mulch]

yeah

[humble verge]

wait

wrong cursed haste

im stupid

its cursed crit

removing haste

[vivid mulch]

yeah xd

@humble verge whatcha think about this

[humble verge]

its aight

[vivid mulch]

"aight"

dang

[limber lion]

No enchants

No Skardyn/Transmitter

Ew

Missing gems in neck and ring

Welp

[vivid mulch]

I know

But so far

Im not putting enchants and gems in something im gonna replace anyways soon

Its champion gear

Wrist and feet im working towards

Skardyn aswell

Grinding grim batol

Just got the hero umbriss today

[carmine moth]

Do any of you know of a WA that shows Rupture as a bar with a countdown? Like a BW timer where it says the targets name and a countdown so you dont have to target or look at plater for when to reapply

For bosses such as Court

[tall atlas]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JXTkHAFPKyZhm7G8#fight=14&type=damage-done can someone please tell me why the other rogue is hitting harder than me his envenoms are spanking me

[karmic crystal]

he has 2k m ore mastery than you

[woven shore]

Google

Tww sockets

Craftman something idk

[spice surge]

Setting

[craggy hawk]

guys tell me pls, with m+ build is it worth to ambush instead of mutilate inside stealth window if we already have mark on prio target? saw somebody doing it and cant understand why

[tall atlas]

would 2k mastery vs 2k crit not kinda balance out

[limber lion]

It doesn't matter

Just use Ambush if you're in stealth/subterfuge

And Mutilate outside

[limber lion]

I think you're looking too much into it

He has more casts, potentially more Radiant Power procs during big Envenom windows and whatever

Don't worry about it too much

[tall atlas]

cool cool

[limber lion]

You're basically doing the same dps

[tall atlas]

okay ty

[spice spire]

He also crit 16% more than you on envenom

Like that’s the beginning middle and end of it

[karmic crystal]

he crits 4% more on envenom?

[warm vortex]

Anyonw know how i move the bars for dbm

like the ones that appear in the centre of the screen

[iron carbon]

/dbm

[karmic crystal]

and no I don't think so when you're looking very specifically at envenom damage, crits overall contribution to our damage is more than the raw damage number it gives - it gives us combo points and energy etc.

[warm vortex]

Yea but what from there X)

[iron carbon]

Move bars

Legit corner down right button

[limber lion]

Open up the Envenom window, it includes both PB and Envenom

[warm vortex]

kk cheers

[karmic crystal]

but as cev said I don't think it's anything you need to worry about especially, some rng could swing that pull either way

ahh

[limber lion]

The guy he's comparing to has much higher crit rate on Envenom itself

But Ovid crit more with PB

[karmic crystal]

then yes that

[limber lion]

Just a bunch of small things that add up

[carmine moth]

Repost
Do any of you know of a WA that shows Rupture as a bar with a countdown? Like a BW timer where it says the targets name and a countdown so you dont have to target or look at plater for when to reapply
For bosses such as Court

[karmic crystal]

I feel like the answer is probably no, I know there used to be a way to do things like that quite well but it's been a long time since I've used something like that on any class

Try get used to using your focus frame or the boss frames for that fight

or ask in the WA discord

there is a toggle somewhere (or used to be) for multi target tracking on debuffs but I remember it required a bit of playing around with

[tiny vessel]

new rogue here.. is there some break point to get haste to before you start prioritzing Crit=Mast >Haste?

[limber lion]

No

Stats do not matter

Just get high ilvl, doesn't matter what's on the item

[coral ibex]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

There are no "recommended stat levels" or "breakpoint of X stat" or "required" amount of any stats. This is an outdated way to think about stats and simply is not relevant to the spec. If you're looking for a quick recommendation: Agi >> Crit = Mastery >= Haste > VersatilityIt's always more accurate to simulate your own character, as stat procs from trinkets/enchants can often de-value their stat relative to others. Stats are not a rigid construct, their values change constantly in relation to each other depending on your character.

• Fatebound will generally want more crit than Deathstalker due to Deal Fate
• Deathstalker prefers more Mastery/Haste due to Darkest Night guaranteeing a crit
• Always Always ALWAYS sim yourself through Top Gear and Droptimizer for accurate results

[limber lion]

Most weakauras just use icons and people use Plater or something else for AoE. Would recommend looking into Plater.

If you really want the bars, you can just do that simply in Weakauras by changing the icon to a bar

[tiny vessel]

then i assume dead energy times will get better with item levels?

[limber lion]

But again, just use Plater.

[limber lion]

Slightly maybe, but it's part of the design of the spec.

!design

[spice surge]

No, the experience youre having is the intended one

[prisma monolith]

Running out of energy in single target is completely normal, intended design of Assassination. You want to be playing for the highest uptime on Envenom, and not blindly spamming away all your energy. Rapid Injection, Sanguine Blades, and Vicious Venoms all play into this gameplay.

• No, haste will not make this feel noticeably better.
• 10% haste only contributes to around 2 actions per minute
• You should be playing for envenom uptime in single target

[iron carbon]

Suffer like everybody

Watch your char auto attack

[tiny vessel]

lmao ouch okay

[sinful terrace]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[subtle tundra]

no could.
SHOULD

imo if you go into a key you care about without them, youre trolling

cheaper than a fucking flask

[spice surge]

Note that you probably should buy rank 3

As R3 has 2s cast time, r2 4 seconds and r1 6 seconds

[brave comet]

isnt the council build basically the mythic dungeon build?

[balmy prism]

no?

[novel star]

who the hell is a council build

i’ve never met that guy

[balmy prism]

oh nvm I thought you mean court

[novel star]

but 4 real the council shit on wowhead or whatever is just ct no?

idr

no fight this tier uses it

[balmy condor]

Broodtwister

But yeh

[subtle tundra]

shittwister

me

[novel star]

thought that was different than the council build on wowhed

idr

i looked at that build one time ever

[balmy condor]

I don’t remember either

[novel star]

LOL

it has blindside and imp ambush i think ?

who knows

mystery

[quiet oar]

It feels so wrong

not to use Vanish in your CDs

[novel star]

eh

[limber lion]

Oh no

[novel star]

it’s nice to have as a panic button on brood

some fat fuck class doesn’t get out far enough with webs

[limber lion]

Previously people complaining having to use Vanish offensively

[novel star]

just vanish

[limber lion]

Now complaining about having to save it for utility use

Unlucky

We can never win

[novel star]

Delete Vanish

[limber lion]

Just make Stealth permanent

[novel star]

holy based wtf

[humble verge]

outlaw

[short night]

guys is there a way to queue vault of the incarnates lfr?

to get the dagger?

usually theres an npc for older raids

[quiet oar]

I mean having utility on your DMG cds ist cringe

like soothing on shiv

[humble verge]

yes

[short night]

whres the npc? 😮

[humble verge]

no idea

[limber lion]

It's true

[short night]

😐

[limber lion]

But Vanish is kinda the opposite

[short night]

are u sure ite xists yet?

[quiet oar]

i was always on the fence that its cringe

[short night]

for voti

[limber lion]

It's a utility button with damage properties

[novel star]

df solo lfr might not exist

[limber lion]

If you don't talent into MA or IG, there's no need to use Vanish whatsoever

Only exists as a damage button because of those

[short night]

so theres literally 0 way to get the dagger

?

[novel star]

idunno

[quiet oar]

Yeah i know

[humble verge]

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=where+to+find+lfr+npc+for+dragonflight

[raw dock]

Hey guys, can u help me understand, how to choose between Sudden Demise and Master Assassin?

I'm a little confused

[west crown]

The lfr guy is not available yet

[runic hinge]

play whatever your heart desires

[mild bane]

wish this was in a faq or guide on icy veins or wow, I came to the disc just for this question haha

having the one-button ambush or mutilate is much smoother

but indeed in the past for outlaw especially you'd want them separate for a few situations per fight, blergh

[late tusk]

Hello, think asked for it some time ago, but dont remind what did you say, there is any way to dodge ricochet on 2º siege boss?

I know i can clean the debuff

But not sure if evasion / cloack will cancel it or even stop bounching to others

[runic hinge]

I think you can evasion if you're the first target but don't quote me on that

[late tusk]

But then i should be able to evasion all hits no?

[runic hinge]

Do you remember the blacksmith boss in Neltharus? You could shadowmeld or vanish the sheild throw but only if you're the first target?

[late tusk]

mmmm not sure

but gotyou

will try

Thanks:D

[dawn heath]

does anyone use target last target function when playing m+ at all? when target swapping can be problamtic in massive pulls to get the correct target how do u guys deal with that

[tawdry flint]

on silken court mythic are you guys holding CDs for first charge?

or sending on pull then using mandate with a darkest night on charge?

holding just feels so cringe in terms of having everything set up and good to go

[smoky dagger]

Yo guys, when I'm doing aoe in m+ specc and I don't have vanish

Should I manually apply dots to the different targets?

Bleeds*

[iron carbon]

Rupture, yes up to 5 target

Garrote, eventually on your main

[smoky dagger]

Alright and that has prio over Envenom?

Neat

[iron carbon]

Yes

Bleeds > Envenom

Useless to spam envenom if you starve energy

[smoky dagger]

Yeah makes sense

[livid jacinth]

!tott

[prisma monolith]

Smart tricks WA on tank, this require the following macro:

/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 1
/click SmartMisdirect LeftButton 0

[cyan karma]

Can shadow step and kick be macroed together?

Say like a focus target/ss/kick, or a mouse over/ss/kick… all off 1 button

[dawn heath]

you need to double tap it

for it to work

/cast [target=focus] Shadowstep
/cast [target=focus] Kick

this should work and u would have to double tap it

i also use this macro

#showtooltip Shadowstep
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead] Shadowstep
/cast [@mouseover,harm,nodead] Kick
/cast [harm,nodead][@targettarget,harm,nodead] Kick
/targetenemy [harm,nodead]
/cast Kick
/targetlasttarget

[cyan karma]

What’s the bottom lines do there?

That’s just the mouse over one??

[dawn heath]

well, its a better version of mouseover

because shadowstep relocates your position and sometimes your mouse is no longer on your target so when u tap the macro again it will no longer be on the target thus nolonger kicking so then it checks for /targetenemy which should always be your closest target to ensure you actually get the kick off

then target last target to get your original target back

[cyan karma]

Ahhhhhhh… that’s pretty genius man f yeah 🙂 this is exactly what I want

[cyan karma]

If I was to just press this button once, it would only shadow step right? So I could effectively bind it to my shadow step key with no draw backs…

[dawn heath]

i would have them on seperate binds

that seems sketchy

[cyan karma]

Hmm ok, duly noted. Cheers 🍻

[halcyon hamlet]

anyone else getting a bug with Indiscriminate Carnage not applying rupture to multiple targets?

[dawn heath]

usually with shitty elevation difference

was it in grimbatol?

[halcyon hamlet]

Yeahp

[dawn heath]

y

[halcyon hamlet]

What a dogshit game

[dawn heath]

some of the terrain there blocks the aoe applications

[halcyon hamlet]

thanks for confirming that

[vivid mulch]

isn't there something that gives crit and mastery?

[balmy condor]

no

[vivid mulch]

Alr

ty

[balmy condor]

not that you would use it anyway

cause whetstones are just better

so idk

[vivid mulch]

I mean i do have those

Was just wondering

[balmy condor]

yeh secondary consumables big suck

[mellow dragon]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[vivid mulch]

Oh there is the wax one

bubbling wax good for aoe yes? c:

[west crown]

Whetstone still best but it’s not far behind

[short night]

doesnt exist

[short night]

😦 😦

I LOVE UNOBTAINIUM

god says fuck my plans

[blazing warren]

Hey guys

Can i post a log?

[spice spire]

Sure

[blazing warren]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2nJfLWMr8PA6FhYd

Here it is

I would appreciate help

[spice spire]

[blazing warren]

Did i post it wrong?

[limber lion]

No, just manually tab around or click the nameplate

I know my main target is always the green nameplate

Because of Spatter

[blazing warren]

I personally mouseover cast stuff often on non target

[dawn heath]

Well normally when u start a pull when mobs are scattered u want to run around and bleed them

[blazing warren]

Find it pretty useful

[dawn heath]

And that can be difficult

[sharp viper]

finally killed ovinax, onto kyveza progress!

[limber lion]

It's a high mythic+ log. The worst kind to review. That's all.

[runic hinge]

got any bullion from s4?

[blazing warren]

Can you tell me why?

I could try to get a different one

[spice spire]

Because at the level you’re playing the issues are extremely minuscule

[blazing warren]

If you tell me what keylevel maybe i can find some in the folder

[limber lion]

Analyzing mythic+ logs are just a pain in the ass to be honest.

[spice spire]

And I have to go pull by pull to see where every single minute mistake is

[limber lion]

There's a million variables in play, including route, comp, pull size, teammate cooldowns, deaths etc

[dawn heath]

Better to record footage imo

[limber lion]

So it's just tough

[spice spire]

Which is a skill set at high m+ all players should have already - not saying that to BM by any means because you’re not the only one that does it.

And it’s also okay to ask for help when you see something completely off the mark of where you think it should be

[dawn heath]

With a ability tracker

[runic hinge]

did someone say footage?

[spice spire]

But just rawdogging 30m of gameplay and analyzing

Is a whole ass task

Lol

[coral ibex]

think about how many pulls there are in a key

thats how many log reviews there are in an m+ log review

on top of optimizing out of combat stuff

[spice spire]

Also I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it

[limber lion]

Yeah but at that point you don't have a "main target" yet

You have many seconds of garroting and rupturing to figure out which one to blast one

[spice spire]

It’s just a lot of analysis and I’m down for a quick 10-15m.
But an hour long look at a 30m log for someone to potentially listen

[limber lion]

Usually you know before pulling which nameplate to track

[spice spire]

Is frustrating sometimes

[dawn heath]

I suggest you just start recording with a ability tracker like i have in this clip then u can go over pull by pull to watch back where you did good and went wrong

https://medal.tv/games/world-of-warcraft/clips/j8fTR7BPDZXU5e20a?invite=cr-MSxwdjIsMTcyMzI0NTA1LA

[raw dock]

Guys, what the pros and cons of Sudden Demise and Master Assassin? I'm trying to choose betweem them

[strange python]

why not both

[raw dock]

Idk act... I leveled my rogue yesterday and looking into some great rogues builds

Can I found an explanation of the major rogue talents in some place?

Ttk, Demise, Master Assassin, etc.

[slow marsh]

!guides

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[runic hinge]

Feetage

[coral ibex]

!pins

check the pins

[raw dock]

Ty

[blazing warren]

Not sure my pc can record gameplay at the same time haha

What did you use to record?

So would it be better if i recorded my runs and if i have some issue in a pull or boss i would post few minutes clip here?

[humble verge]

unluk

[dawn heath]

medal

[blazing warren]

medal?

[dawn heath]

you can put in settings so it auto records when u start the game

y the program is called that

its free

medal.tv

so u can see here

it records sessions

then u can put a cap on like 250gb or something so it deletes the old vods so it doent take up too much space

[short night]

the vendor is gone 😭

[humble verge]

who is this

[short night]

removed on tww launch

[blazing warren]

Thats interesting

Can you choose quality?

[dawn heath]

its 720 if u don't pay for it

if u pay ucan have higher quality

[blazing warren]

Thank you, ill look into that

[balmy condor]

Mathias Shaw

[slow marsh]

da og

[humble verge]

oh

[worldly bridge]

Is Fatebound competitive for Silken MM ? Im kinda struggling anticipating the mark on the good boss during amp dmg

[balmy condor]

no

[worldly bridge]

sadge

[balmy condor]

fatebound is competitive when exactly and only 1 target is present

[worldly bridge]

time to get better i guess. ty 🙂

[woven shore]

My dog

[humble verge]

wait what :o

[balmy condor]

wdym wait what

[humble verge]

thats shaws description on wowpedia

[balmy condor]

okay?

[iron carbon]

And?

[humble verge]

i was just

nvm

[balmy condor]

who gives a shit what some random fan made wiki says

[humble verge]

muh immersion

[lavish portal]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[blazing warren]

You know what guys

Assassination really aint that bad

I thought it would be much worse

But it is kinda comfy

I thought ill just go back to Outlaw

But those dots dont scare me no more

Plus, i really like the visual on Fan of Knives

Actually, the sounds are rather nice as well

[novel star]

yea spec kinda ez

you just vibe

[blazing warren]

Damn i would call it harder than Outlaw

[novel star]

[blazing warren]

Ez wouldnt be my choice of word

[patent vessel]

ok dumb question BUT are you vanishing in the opener for imp garrote during pandemic bc it's not shown in the graphic

[limber lion]

No

[novel star]

you vanish for master assassin

on the last 6 sec of kingsbane

[limber lion]

During kb

[blazing warren]

I only wish i could make more fluff weakauras, voice lines of Valeera from HotS not cutting it, not enough of them

[patent vessel]

rgr

[novel star]

you still refresh garrote afterwards but ur intention when pressing it should be MA

[blazing warren]

Tbh i often find myself refreshing Garrote early

Is that bad?

Like if you do your cds, garrote has like 8s and first Stealth window is at like 2s

So i somtimes just click it for easy 3 CP

Is this a big mistake?

[patent vessel]

and then in subsequent deathmarks do u vanish at the same time

[novel star]

Ye

[patent vessel]

ok thank u, been reading the guide and was a bit puzzled

[novel star]

in dm kb window + kb at 6s = vanish

or 12s with subterfuge

(in st)

vanishing the same way in aoe is fine on paper but it feels really shit if your tank chains after or smth

in that case having carnage again is better i think

idk man m+ sucks ass

[blazing warren]

Do you delay your CDs a little bit on second boss of Necrotic?

So the adds spawn?

I usually just send them

Then Vanish to dot the mobs

Or to silence them if i play Iron Wire

[novel star]

prob better to just send

[astral plover]

Do we always do 6-7 cp? or do we some times do 5?

[novel star]

we always do 5

[blazing warren]

5 unless Darkest Night then at max?

[novel star]

hitting another mutilate at 5cp is real bad

unless you are maxing out for darkest night yeh

in that case you force 7

but every other situation it’s bad to mut at 5

[blazing warren]

What about having 6/7 and Darkest Night proc, is it still better to get to 7 or try to make it more CP efficient and send Envenom instead first?

[novel star]

7

[astral plover]

What i thought aswell, but was watching hopefull. he constantly did 6-7

[novel star]

darkest night takes priority over everything else

[astral plover]

got confused

[novel star]

including even rupture uptime

[blazing warren]

Thank you

[novel star]

you NEED your mark up

[stoic lily]

Replace him with kyveza

[sharp viper]

kyveza is using deathstalker as outlaw, ban her

[novel star]

who and why

[astral plover]

hopeful from echo, and mandatory.

[humble verge]

guh

[astral plover]

Cuz he was streaming MDI so i was watching him?

[novel star]

everyone makes mistakes i guess

im not sure how much i believe that whoever this is was hitting muts/fans at 5cp but if they were it was simply a mistake

[karmic stream]

anyone with mythic silken done? After p2 do you just send cds or still try and align with charge in p3?

[iron carbon]

https://lorrgs.io/spec_ranking/rogue-assassination/the-silken-court

[karmic stream]

yeah i've looked at lorrgs, its alot of deviations after p2

thats why i asked

[iron carbon]

What do you consider P2 ?

Between 2 intermission I guess

[karmic stream]

yea its not really a question, its after first intermission until second

dispell phase

[iron carbon]

There's no good answer

It's legit send on cd or hold until next amp phase

Just the most skip the first amp phase in p3

[karmic stream]

yeah looks like its just about the second and last amp phases there in p3

[iron carbon]

This one just land on cd

[gaunt herald]

hello, i just started playing deathstalker asssassination and i keep running into a problem like 30-50% of the time where on bosses in raid i will shadowstep and try to ambush but i lose the stealth buff or something. my theory is that my auto attacks are breaking stealth when i step onto the boss, and it's forcing me to vanish to apply the mark otherwise i wont have it. am i doing something wrong? i was wondering if there was a macro people use for shadowstep to stop autoattacks or smthn cuz im not 100% what the issue is

[iron carbon]

Just don't Shadowstep

[spice surge]

Or dont right click the boss

But yes you could macro /stopattack into your step

Although that wouldnt be great in combat

[gaunt herald]

nobody else has this problem? or you guys just learned to stop stepping

just such a hard habit to break

[balmy condor]

I just don't step on pull

[iron carbon]

I mean, nobody step on pull

[balmy condor]

this guy does apparently

[iron carbon]

You can just stay next to the boss waiting the tanks to pull

[gaunt herald]

yeah just a bad habit, its not like im randomly stepping when its not required for the rest of the duration of fights, just at the start idk something about stepping + ambush feels good to me lol. i didn't realize at first it was causing me problems but i know now for certain.

ty for the help guys

[iron carbon]

Tbh, never experimenced it

Just don't right click

You should play sub if you like the ss + Hit from stealth

[gaunt herald]

ah maybe thats why its inconsistent, sometimes i dont realize i right click the boss and sometimes i prob do

yeah idk i played rogue before i liked sub but feels like it has so many keybinds

[limber lion]

No reason to shadowstep unless you're mispositioned when the pull timer hits 0 because you were taking a piss or getting nuggies from the fridge

[iron carbon]

Cev is 100% accurate

Or getting coffee

[gritty cypress]

What's the % downtime on Assa rogue these days in single target?

[cerulean walrus]

When I look at logs and I see Shadowstep in the first 2 seconds

[west crown]

Idk i do it on court without fail every time

[spice spire]

Oh I’m trying to see the queens GYAT in first person

Wdym

[cerulean walrus]

You do have a point

I wanna be neck deep in there

[spice spire]

Amen

[cerulean walrus]

@spice spire oh no I shadowstepped and my magnum dong slipped into your bussy whatever shall we do?

[drifting cloud]

[spice spire]

In November?

Miss me w that

[cerulean walrus]

Who said we nut brother?

[drifting cloud]

youre gonna need to keep it in there for a week

[cerulean walrus]

[spice spire]

Man’s soaking

[cerulean walrus]

I thought you were into that

[spice spire]

I’m not Mormon

[cerulean walrus]

Just gotta let it soak

Let it steep a lil

[cerulean walrus]

Could have fooled me

Idek what I mean by that

[spice spire]

Mf I got no bitches

I ain’t got multiple wives

[cerulean walrus]

That you know of

The quake harem

[runic hinge]

Peak #assassination

[cerulean walrus]

What can I say

I’m an ass man

[marble hemlock]

opposites attract

[runic hinge]

[marble hemlock]

fere is the opposite of an ass

so it makes sense

[cerulean walrus]

How can you play Ass Ass Nation

And not be part of the Ass Ass Nation

[spice spire]

[slow marsh]

im 580 what do

[cerulean walrus]

Get better gear

[iron carbon]

We agree, that egg is fcking simbait?

[cerulean walrus]

Egg is actually quite good. Whispyr himself is a connoisseur of the egg

Omelette du Fromage

[spice spire]

Never stop delving

Also

Key one or two

[slow marsh]

even if it's not bountiful? and do i just max at 8?

[spice spire]

Bountiful for immediate gesr

[balmy condor]

can knock like 0.7% off to account for poor play imo

[spice spire]

Butsc vault that slot

So make sure you do 8 8s a week

[balmy condor]

egg is good

[slow marsh]

oh yeah facts i forgot about vault

[spice spire]

616 gesr is real good initially

[iron carbon]

Isn't too hard to use?

[slow marsh]

do i only get myth track from raid + 10 vaults?

[balmy condor]

not really that hard no

like you try to hover around 20 of the stand still stacks

and if you don't then whatever

[iron carbon]

When do we press it?

When hard movement phase / static phase is coming ?

And < 20 stacks

[balmy condor]

I mean it just locks the stacks for a period of time

so you press it if you want to lock the stacks for a period of time I guess

[iron carbon]

I guess, just need to track it

[iron carbon]

Bon appétit

[crimson vector]

what target count do you press fan at in m+ build rn?

[balmy condor]

2

[crimson vector]

ty!

[balmy condor]

you would mut

if you're in 2 target and one is taking 99% reduced damage, you treat it like single target with the exception of bleeds/poisons to get the benefit of venomous wounds and the target multi from crimson tempest

[lavish geyser]

What is the minimum cps we use for finishers? Do we go for full cps if we are missing 1?

[warm vortex]

5

Or more

unless DN then 7

so if you end up with 5, 6 or 7 use a finisher
envenom at least

idk about the other oens
usually i just send them

Ct i go for 5, 6 or 7

[balmy condor]

every finisher 5+

DN 7

[keen mist]

https://tenor.com/view/me-waking-up-from-nap-swifty-sapped-wow-swifty-world-of-warcraft-swifty-wow-gif-26679783

[final star]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1012847410432704615/1263918962518003793/D181D0B8D0B6D0BAD0B0-D0B7D0B5D180D0BED0BAD183D0BB-ezgif.com-video-to-gif-converter.gif

[trail locust]

https://tenor.com/view/dns-alien-breakcore-dance-green-gif-3452598046395954416

[lavish geyser]

Ok thanks that is what i have been doing

Was playing with some dudes and one person said that supercharger was ass. And that i needed to go subterfuge, is that valid? Personally i like just going no subterfuge

[hearty coral]

Find the error

Man im so dumb

[west crown]

Forced induction is a fine option

[cobalt sphinx]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[keen spruce]

[wraith briar]

Is the garrote/rupture spreading system "smart"? as in will it try to pick targets to spread to that aren't already affected by the debuffs

[balmy condor]

yes

[wraith briar]

so if im fighting 5 targets there's not a reason to swap targets in opener right

[balmy condor]

correct

!carnage

[prisma monolith]

Indiscriminate Carnage Targetting and Swapping
TLDRMouseovers/Target swapping is optimal on 6 target, or 8+ targets, but not necessarily required

• The 2 Bleeds spread by carnage are smart and will prioritize mobs without the bleed. If everything already has bleeds it'll apply randomly
• You as the character are still casting the bleed against your target like normal, this is why people will sometimes use mouseover macros or swap targets

Swapping targets is situationally better, but can be ignored if you're having difficulties with it. Take 5 mob aoe as an example, your first garrote cast will apply to 3 targets (your target + 2 more). Regardless of if you swap or not, your second cast of garrote will hit your target, and then apply 2 more garrotes, prioritizing the mobs that do not have garrote. In very large aoe pulls (12 or more), a standard opener (garrote-garrote-rupture-rupture-garrote-garrote) will only apply 9 garrotes (3+2+2+2) and 5 ruptures (3+2) if you do not swap, losing you 3 garrotes and a rupture.

It is technically worse, but the situations in which you lose bleeds aren't very common; the lost ruptures/garrotes don't contribute much to your already flooded energy, you don't get additional scent of blood stacks, etc. The loss is purely the extra damage from those bleeds.

[wraith briar]

ty

so how would i modify this opener if i have no charges of vanish. just press improved garrote again right before the buff falls off? b/c garrote lasts 18 seconds and death mark only lasts 16 so garrote would fall off in the middle of the cd

[winged quail]

garrote again before shiv is what I do

[wraith briar]

nvm i guess you just always save 1 charge for death mark right

[winged quail]

but yeah should have vanish

[wraith briar]

ok ty ty

[lavish geyser]

yeee 🙂 and I have seen casual play with it, so if its that bad, I dont think he would be playing it. im sure other high pushers also play the same

[humble verge]

rip, had a raidmember do this to his alt, but in 636

and ofcourse

you get no help

[lavish geyser]

yeah need to triple check that everytime XD

[frigid pilot]

is mutilate better than ambush after vanish?

[novel star]

technically yes but not by an amount that is worth a 2nd keybind

[frigid pilot]

damn

[novel star]

its like margin of error in sims iirc

[frigid pilot]

so its ok to just vanish garrote

[novel star]

wait in what context are you asking this

i assumed you mean like using mutilates instead of ambushes cause of subterfuge

[frigid pilot]

vanish garrote vs vanish ambush garrote

[novel star]

oh

you never vanish ambush lol

ambush is only good for the mark

[frigid pilot]

no benefit of ambushing when mark is alrdy up?