Thanks friend.
#assassination
grave solar
shy pecan
CT is just a maintenance AoE dot that you just need to fire once and refresh as you mentioned, yeah. You don’t need everything to have rupture. Just get enough for the energy generation so you can just spam envenom
grave solar
CT is just a maintenance AoE dot that you just need to fire once and refresh as ...
Ty, sounds like i'll be changing my title to Postmaster too!
shy crow
can someone rq explain how to proc envenomous explosion
grave solar
you need to cast envenom on the target while they still have the debuff from your last envenom
runic hinge
envenom is a self buff but same thing
shy crow
i was comparing my damage to another assassin rogue and realized that im just not getting that
runic hinge
do you have the 4 set?
runic hinge
lol no worries
shy crow
embarassing
twin ermine
So, i am choosing between all 3 rogue specs and havoc, which one would I be safer choosing?
raven egret
So, i am choosing between all 3 rogue specs and havoc, which one would I be safe...
What is your definition of safer?
haughty flicker
i mean its more likely at least one of the 3 rogue specs will be meta than just havoc
but havoc also has meta so arguably it is the safest meta pick
raven egret
but havoc also *has* meta so arguably it is the safest meta pick
I see you, I see what you did there
twin ermine
PRobably going to do rogue, I like the community better anyways, DH's are big time doomers
royal lantern
PRobably going to do rogue, I like the community better anyways, DH's are big ti...
dont visit #outlaw then
felhammer 2.0
raven egret
Or do, and please mention 'acro'
twin ermine
I mean realistically I just want to play havoc so i can use Azzinoth warglaives
raven egret
hey whatever floats your boat, everyone has a different sets of reasons to pick whatever they main
twin ermine
They are technically "swords"
cerulean nest
I think I know the answer to this but given the option between finishing on an anima charged CP and mutting again to get 5+ for mark, is there a "better" choice?
also do anima charged CPs count as "7 CPs" for the capstone envenom?
runic hinge
also do anima charged CPs count as "7 CPs" for the capstone envenom?
Not currently and you hope that that’s a bug and they fix it
cerulean nest
sick
I guess my two questions are the same question lol. if anima CPs dont actually count as 7 that's really dumb
desert gate
in keys, our focus is to have rupture consistently on 3 targets right?
royal lantern
your focus is to have enough bleeds out that you reach energy saturation
royal lantern
I think I know the answer to this but given the option between finishing on an a...
ofc the ER cp
like, you play ER, why would you not use it lol
cerulean nest
i know im joshing
potent dagger
Am I the only one who cannot read the two threads ?
balmy condor
fatebound doesnt use ER?
No
balmy condor
Am I the only one who cannot read the two threads ?
Cannot read in what way
cerulean nest
so in fatebound is vanished used specifically to fish after 5 same flips?
so always in the same cd window there
like you'd never precast an improved garrote before DM
royal lantern
iirc its more like
cerulean nest
or is that literally just in opener?
royal lantern
you use it to fish for the capstone during the opener
and after that like normal
correct me if im wrong @balmy condor
royal python
After the consecutive buffs of 10% n 15%, does the 14% number mean a reverting Nerf ?
balmy condor
correct me if im wrong <@167090536602140682>
You’re right
balmy condor
After the consecutive buffs of 10% n 15%, does the 14% number mean a reverting N...
What are you talking about
cerulean nest
and if you're unlucky in opener and dont reach 5 to try and fish for it, then what
balmy condor
and if you're unlucky in opener and dont reach 5 to try and fish for it, then wh...
Then you just refresh garrote like normal
cerulean nest
right there and then during opener DM?
cerulean nest
yeah thats what Im asking okay
royal lantern
its like
improved garrote has priority
but IF you could grab the capstone with vanish
you do it
cerulean nest
im just imagining some situation where you get 5 flips like very close to the end of DM, like gambling and holding vanish for that versus pandemicing garrote
okay yeah that explains it ty
balmy condor
but IF you could grab the capstone with vanish
???? So then improved garrote doesn’t have priority 
It ain’t rocket science, if you’re on 5 coins and you have vanish, you vanish
If you don’t, you just refresh garrote like normal
royal lantern
thats what i said there?
cerulean nest
nah I get it. refresh garrote no matter what and if you can't fish with 5 flips during pandemic go to hell
balmy condor
Sure
blazing plaza
After the consecutive buffs of 10% n 15%, does the 14% number mean a reverting N...
what 14%?
cerulean nest
so are parses just gonna be "did you proc capstone during opener or not" lol
royal lantern
mate
parses are allready a joke
fatebound is not more rng then current assa is 
DF weapon enchants alone allready do that
cerulean nest
true
potent dagger
Are they numerically close atm ? Fatebound and Death ?
cerulean nest
honestly after practicing both trees now, I dont mind either one gameplay wise
nothing crazy special but fun enough
rotund oak
Sure
now i need to log and test the pins and come back with so many questions
also no ER on fatebound?
grand trail
nice write up
rotund oak
now i have to spend the next 48 hours to achieve opener perfection
no ER really confused and hurt my feelings but whatever
balmy condor
Are they numerically close atm ? Fatebound and Death ?
Yes
balmy condor
also no ER on fatebound?
No
royal python
What are you talking about
https://www.wowhead.com/news/war-within-launch-patch-11-0-2-patch-notes-345734
If you see here, the number is 14% finally, not the 10 followed by 15% that happened before
hollow river
silk bane
https://www.wowhead.com/news/war-within-launch-patch-11-0-2-patch-notes-345734
...
no they already baked some of the ealier ones into the abilities and reset the auras, its the same thing
this was a few weeks back
balmy condor
Yeah
Those patch notes are purely copy paste from beta
There is nothing new in there
nimble vector
Are deathstalker talents assuming the bug with marks / ER cp gets fixed or would you play ER regardless
rotund oak
personally i wont play deathstalker until er interacts with deathstalkers mark
blazing plaza
!wa
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hoary remnant
But they do assume the bug is fixed
The garrote 5cp bug? How much gain is it rn?
hoary remnant
we're talking about ER bug
The one that doesn't consume marks and capstone darkest night right?
balmy condor
yes
subtle tundra
Good morning king
balmy condor
Good morning king
I have something that'll make you happy
haughty flicker
i bet you do
worthy surge
hi all just wondering since losing shadowdance would being a nightelf be anyhelp at all ?
or stay dwarf as it wont matter much
lime crypt
this is BiS
this is live, ye?
balmy condor
beta
balmy condor
hi all just wondering since losing shadowdance would being a nightelf be anyhelp...
no, just stay whatever you have
lime crypt
so the changes that happened now
subtle tundra
3
lime crypt
are those in yet?
subtle tundra
:0
balmy condor
so the changes that happened now
what changes
subtle tundra
holy moly
subtle tundra
even if it was for prepatch, does dont affect beta
balmy condor
i thoguht there was some big update on prepatch
I mean it is technically
lime crypt
wat
balmy condor
those patch notes are active on live with the coming reset
balmy condor
not really no
I'm not updating the prepatch guide any further anyways
it's just full steam ahead new expansion
and if people give a shit about janky level 70 talent optimizations that aren't tuned and aren't supported in simcraft
well
they can kiss my ass I guess
verbal blaze
hey guys it's been a bit for me, how are rogues looking so far going into expansion?
balmy condor
hey guys it's been a bit for me, how are rogues looking so far going into expans...
they're fine
outlaw is dooming pretty hard
having haste breakpoints and killing spree and losing range increase
seems to be destroying their mental
sub is kinda messy
worthy sparrow
I have faith. Outlaw will be great.
balmy condor
all the hero talents are a bit janky or just really boring
subtle tundra
I have faith. Outlaw will be great.
same
balmy condor
it's not like the expansion is the death of rogue or anything
it's not inspiring either
potent dagger
verbal blaze
sub is kinda messy
sub compared to dragonflight, is it still fluid? did they make changes to CDR to make it feel more clunky or slow?
earnest remnant
kinda like the water i just drank
balmy condor
stealthi can probably answer that better
but I think sub plays pretty similarly overall
earnest remnant
yeh
limber lion
Log in
earnest remnant
just some cringe ass trickster bs
limber lion
No KB 🔛 🔝
hardy dagger
The gcd lock is criminal imo
verbal blaze
just some cringe ass trickster bs
hey how does sub feel in the new expansion? 🙂
earnest remnant
gcd lock doesent really matter for sub, its kinda w/e
balmy condor
No KB 🔛 🔝
and all it took was like 2 hours of just arterial cooking 
time I will never get back
earnest remnant
hey how does sub feel in the new expansion? 🙂
same as season 3, just a tiny bit less cringe in terms of shadowdust timers, but more cringe in what you do when playing trickster
thats the tldr
subtle kiln
Krangked with slightly more cringe.
hardy dagger
gcd lock doesent really matter for sub, its kinda w/e
Just really odd that you can't press off gcd spells
balmy condor
honestly if it weren't for the CT buffs that whole build would crumble to dust
it only works because you can desync shiv from kingsbane in aoe
verbal blaze
same as season 3, just a tiny bit less cringe in terms of shadowdust timers, but...
fair, last I played was season 2 before shadowdust
verbal blaze
panicking lmao
dawn elm
Ait so regarding shiv in aoe, i get that shiv does not buff spatter dmg directly but does it not buff it indirectly by buffing the naturedmg our main target takes?
balmy condor
no
damage increases on your caustic target do not transfer to non-caustic targets
so if you envenom your caustic target for 100, it would caustic 45
if you shiv your caustic target
that envenom does 130, but caustic still only does 45
you would need to have shiv on both targets in order to increase the damage
as shiv on both targets would take the 100 damage from envenom, turn it into 130, and take the 45 damage from caustic, and turn it into 58.5
so without arterial precision, you're not getting any aoe benefit
dawn elm
Ahhh ait, thats kinda dumb but makes sence why shiv without ap is weak in aoe then
Thx alot!
balmy condor
Ahhh ait, thats kinda dumb but makes sence why shiv without ap is weak in aoe th...
blade flurry works the same way
just for reference
it's to avoid abuse cases with residual effects
dawn elm
So nimble flurry aswell? Or does that scale
As its all dmg done to the target
Except for the bugs
💀
balmy condor
So nimble flurry aswell? Or does that scale
correct
the thing about nimble flurry for sub though is things like dance/symbols are player buffs
those will increase both obviously, cause you as a player are doing damage to both targets
it's target damage taken debuffs that don't spread
cause it's the target itself taking more damage
hearty reef
AP is a very nice aoe talent, too bad hyrbid build skips it
balmy condor
AP is nice, but scent of blood is nicer
dawn elm
cause it's the target itself taking more damage
Ahhhhh now it all makes sence
royal lantern
AP is nice, but scent of blood is nicer
dawn elm
Thx again
hearty reef
oh yeah scent and demise are bangers
subtle tundra
can i say that i hate the fact that internal bleeding is so weak, caustic is better WITHOUT kb
its literally FILLER
hearty reef
subtle tundra
i retarct my statement until its actually proven
whatever
im betrayed
i didnt expect much more
balmy condor
I mean I'll run it back
but internal bleeding sucks and it's bugged to shit with ER
so
subtle tundra
i dont actually expect internal bleeding to be better
balmy condor
kinda pointless imo
subtle tundra
but internal bleeding sucks and it's bugged to shit with ER
thats a classic
balmy condor
7cp internal bleeding just straight up doesn't exist I'm pretty sure
something like that
so it just defaults to 1cp if you nat hit 7
or it defaults to the cp you used ER on
balmy condor
if you rup on 7cp yeah pretty sure
dawn elm
Kinda new to rogue but could not something like this be good in low target count dungeons
subtle tundra
nice!
balmy condor
I mean I guess but there's no reason to take amp poison without dtb
static glacier
Kinda new to rogue but could not something like this be good in low target count...
I feel like SBS is kinda big in low target situations
balmy condor
that too
it's basically just a build archetype that already exists but worse
like you're halfway between a hybrid build and a bleed build
can compare to the talents here
dawn elm
Ait, just feel like the value of SBS mostly lies in its ability to spread ruptures more quickly but im not to well read in on assa yet
Waiting for those guides 😉
indigo mulch
Why do we do bleed build for low keys? Is it to buff sudden?
balmy condor
putting damage into kingsbane is pointless in low keys
indigo mulch
True, won't ever reach those 50 stacks
balmy condor
I mean you probably will
haughty flicker
kb already kills everything in low keys
indigo mulch
I mean you won't get full value from kb I guess.
haughty flicker
putting more damage is just overkill
balmy condor
but if the target dies 7 seconds into your 14 seconds kingsbane because you popped your sudden demise for 2.5 mil
what's the point
you can deathmark some random target and sudden demise will kill at 20%
what are you expecting kingsbane to do with that
rare jackal
@balmy condor love the new posts, nice job
balmy condor
ty
rocky zodiac
How big is the Difference between SB and 2x Viscious Venoms for DS ST? You mention its small, but how small?
balmy condor
with the lack of shiv interaction on vicious venoms it's within 0.1%
rocky zodiac
Thats indeed a very small difference. Thanks man
rocky zodiac
forgive me and my bad short term memory
balmy condor
all good
rocky zodiac
I just read it and forgot...
balmy condor
I could've sworn I wrote something to that effect but it was 4am so very likely that I made mistakes 
good to double check
rocky zodiac
😅
balmy condor
@subtle tundra went and ran it back on the numbers for you (I fixed opener logic so needed to rerun anyway)
your no KB build is -1.6%
the best internal bleeding build also happens to be that no KB build
and is another -4% on top of the -1.6%
grim jay
<@225677043482755072> went and ran it back on the numbers for you (I fixed opene...
cursed
subtle tundra
and is another -4% on top of the -1.6%
holy its so bad
balmy condor
deathstalker....
your build is still -1.6%, but internal bleeding is now -5.4% instead of -4%
(the coin spatters so kinda hurts)
subtle tundra
ok fatebound not AS bad
hoary remnant
Why no Kingsbane? Just to reduce the buttons to press?
limber lion
It's just for the memes
If you wanna lean into FULL bleeds and taking every single bleed node, you gotta drop KB
Can't have AP + SBS + IC + SD + SS together with KB
royal lantern
Why no Kingsbane? Just to reduce the buttons to press?
varas hates KB
limber lion
That's the build that I cooked day 1 when SBS was changed
And the build that I would play if I played the game
KB not getting full value, might as well ditch
I would play CB though instead of ER
Getting all CP with Shiv with AP/CB feels pretty good
Gar - Gar - CT - CB/Shiv - Rup - Rup openers, shesh
balmy condor
I would mention how abysmal the single target is
But I don’t think that’s worth the effort
grim jay
idk I'd say for me personally playing without KB would kinda mean missing a rather big part of the spec
limber lion
It's something that was added in DF and I'm not a big fan of it myself whatsoever
It truly was something that I looked through rose-tinted glasses before it was added
But I was wrong
grim jay
it was there in legion and I was annoyed the whole time that it wasnt there afterwards
so
limber lion
Do not like it nor Spatter
balmy condor
AoE oogabooga
I want to try and see how short a 5 Target pull would need to be for it to be worth dropping caustic and kb
Cause like
At minimum 7-8 seconds right
grim jay
not having a poison cd is imo kinda weird
balmy condor
Cause you don’t even get to press kb before that
limber lion
not having a poison cd is imo kinda weird
What's a bleed cd?
limber lion
lul
limber lion
Yeah there ain't anything
They all do the same stuff for poisons and bleeds
shiv buffs both with ap
deathmark buffs both
grim jay
What's a bleed cd?
deathmark literally is a bleed cd
spice surge
Vanish ig
grim jay
wdym
limber lion
deathmark literally is a bleed cd
Brother
grim jay
its a bleed itself and the bleed part is bigger
balmy condor
<:Exsang:1078595276174008360>
Very politely attach yourself to a weather balloon
limber lion
It really is not
"It's a bleed itself" doesn't say much when it does 0.01% damage
And it literally duplicates all lethal poisons as well
It's not just bleeds my guy
spice surge
Is it even a bleed? it doesnt gain the benefit from mastery
So its not a bleed or poison technically
limber lion
Yeah even more so lol
balmy condor
grim jay
And it literally duplicates all lethal poisons as well
oh ye they deal as much damage as the duplicated bleeds
forgot
balmy condor
Eleem with the right hand
limber lion
Just a random dot
spice surge
Does it even work with sudden demise
spice spire
Eleem with the right hand
Need that
grim jay
Is it even a bleed? it doesnt gain the benefit from mastery
who knows whats intentional at this point
limber lion
oh ye they deal as much damage as the duplicated bleeds
What
No one said that lol
The fact is that it buffs both
Garry and Rup do like 5% and the poisons are like 2%
grim jay
the fact it does more for the bleeds is enough for me to make it a more bleed focused CD 
spice surge
Very politely attach yourself to a weather balloon
For this rude comment i sentence you to 2 months of mandatory aug conscription
balmy condor
For this rude comment i sentence you to 2 months of mandatory aug conscription
Mandatory conscription is a Swedish thing sorry we don’t do that in the land of the free
limber lion
the fact it does more for the bleeds is enough for me to make it a more bleed fo...
You know if you play DTB, it actually duplicates Amp Poison, Deadly poisons dot portion and Deadly poisons instant hit
Whereas it only duplicates 2 bleeds
So it duplicates 3 poisons, but 2 bleeds
Sounds like a poison cd to me
limber lion
Damn
static glacier
so this is 1.656m
is TTB worth it over blindside / is dropping KB a realistic option?
limber lion
But Shiv is green even with AP
glitch or?
🥸
I don't have any good emotes as a non-nitro boy
So I'll go back to my default emoticons
balmy condor
is TTB worth it over blindside / is dropping KB a realistic option?
I mean if within 2% dps on dungeonslice is realistic to you then yeah
Ttb with arterial is better than blindside for dslice though
limber lion
🥴
normal mist
Whispyr, was reading the guides you worked last night, and theres some phrasing thats making me mad (on blizzards end)
static glacier
honestly kinda impressed they managed to tune KB to not be auto-lock in
normal mist
"The capstone increases your agility until you leave combat for 10 seconds."
balmy condor
Whispyr, was reading the guides you worked last night, and theres some phrasing ...
I’m more mad about the bugs
limber lion
Until you have been out of combat for 10 seconds?
normal mist
Until you leave combat VS for 10 seconds
balmy condor
Wdym
balmy condor
You leave combat and it starts the 10s timer
spice surge
I’m more mad about the bugs
Bug really do be stinky, surely theyre gonna do some fixes soon right
balmy condor
Bug really do be stinky, surely theyre gonna do some fixes soon right
Surely
spice surge
I love sub deathstalker doing like 12% less damage than it "should" because of bugs
static glacier
good way to think about it is 10s from the moment you can restealth
balmy condor
static glacier
spice spire
limber lion
<:sadge:1271705153438875670>
Hey what are you doing here
balmy condor
Being sadge
limber lion
balmy condor
Quite a silly game
balmy condor
Wdym
limber lion
Like these abilities' names not being capitalized and only sometimes mentioned along with the icon.
But silly ocd stuff nothing else
balmy condor
Yeah I tried to add some names to uncommon icons
limber lion
The pooling thing is so cringe though idk
I don't know why Sanguine Blades is the way it is
:'(
Or rather the spec surrounding it
Pooling above 50% and blasting during cds is bis
limber lion
Yeah I tried to add some names to uncommon icons
Yeah, just that they're not capitalized hurts, but it's no biggie dw
just my autism pushing through
The opener bit is very pretty, I love the multiple options for opener
grim jay
Just a random dot
both tooltips say its a bleed btw, just to add some ackschually aswell 
limber lion
both tooltips say its a bleed btw, just to add some ackschually aswell <:peepogu...
Well obviously
It is a bleed
Eleem just said that it doesn't function like one
grim jay
Eleem just said that it doesn't function like one
bcs blizzard
it should tho
doubt it would change much
balmy condor
The opener bit is very pretty, I love the multiple options for opener
It’s gonna get prettier
Just a fuck ton of work
digital wind
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
gloomy sparrow
late to the convo but mobs scaling to level makes that game kinda ass, just do junction, don't level the chars and gg game is broken lmao
white lance
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
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cold rampart
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue
hearty reef
I couldnt help but notice that aoe opener in new pins have the same dm-shiv-kb combo, is it actually still the case without lightweight builds?
i would have guessed that with only one shiv charge i wanna keep it for the late 7s
white lance
do we care about the changed pandemic window with corrupt the blood, or nah?
limber lion
No
limber lion
in terms of dmg that is
huh
blazing plaza
!wa
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limber lion
that's rude
rotund oak
im not famous for practising savoir vivre
balmy condor
I couldnt help but notice that aoe opener in new pins have the same dm-shiv-kb c...
yeh doesn't matter much because the end of kingsbane isn't that much stronger
hearty reef
so FFA?
hearty reef
balmy condor
if you aren't running arterial it ain't even worth pressing for aoe damage on I think 5 or more
you'd just be getting some extra single target
but if you're running hybrid in like a +5 or some shit and everything is exploding you kinda just never press shiv
rotund oak
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
hearty reef
you'd just be getting some extra single target
stronger spatter if it buffs KB?
royal lantern
tl:dr, spatter dmg doesnt get higher by shiv cus the enemys that spatter hits ALSO need shiv on them
rotund oak
that only applies to AP builds
the main reason i wanna continue playing arterial precision
white lance
!bug
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue
rotund oak
tl:dr, spatter dmg doesnt get higher by shiv cus the enemys that spatter hits AL...
have u tested deathstalker ST at all?
royal lantern
have u tested deathstalker ST at all?
idk what that has to do with deathstalker, but only a bit
not really doing dungeons/raids or questing on beta tbh
its mostly me hitting dmg dummys
rotund oak
idk what that has to do with deathstalker, but only a bit
its irrelevant ye same,mostly dummies did 3 bosses on raid testing once
man
it pumps
now im actually questioning my coinflippin' choice
i need numbers,where does it stand relative to fatebound
balmy condor
equal
royal lantern
i mean, i despise deathstalker cus its peak "shit desing "saved" by doing numbers"
FoK on single target
very cool
rotund oak
yeah thats a thing,u fok in ST
royal lantern
mutilate/backstab at 6cp, awesome
thats what i want
weird af to apply on some fights
👍
white lance
can anyone explain why i consume deathstalkers mark stacks if i envenom another target and then fok? cant find that explained in game
rotund oak
😅
rotund oak
can anyone explain why i consume deathstalkers mark stacks if i envenom another ...
its a bug,what whispyr linked^^
white lance
ah sweet, ty
should probably have been my first stop to check buglist, but the list in !bug one seemed outdated
balmy condor
yeah no one uses that thing
rotund oak
im testing it like a madman since ive read the new pins
and im still catching up with the buglist
u arent the only one 😅
they need to fix ER interaction
blizzard plz
im gonna cry on the forum especially for that
gonna make a new thread
hearty reef
that's not how spatter works
yeah i dint mean exactly that, but if you shiv your kb target it's gonna spatter the stronger kb right?
hearty reef
ok soz
yeah i read that, i was still thinking that it's a bit counter intuitive that spatter remebers the non shivved kb tick and spatters that instead of what current kb tick passed
balmy condor
that's how residuals work
it's a target modifier
like if it worked like that you could double dip
you'd play arterial, shiv your main target, get 30% nature, and all the other targets would also get 30%
hearty reef
wow exactly how i thought AP builds worked!
balmy condor
so instead of 45% you'd be spattering like 58% or whatever
yeah no that's ripe for abuse lmao
AP just shivs the other targets so they also take 30% and the math adds up to it being 45% again
hearty reef
yeah at this point its clear (to me) that shiv is a flag and spatter also tries to check that flag to know which number of the tick to spatter
balmy condor
but in extreme situations if you have lets say a 2 boss cleave encounter and there's a mechanic to stun them and they take 100% increased damage
you would be double dipping that and shiv
would just be out of control
instead of 45% caustic and calculating target debuffs individually, it would be 45% of the 100% increased and the 30% of shiv, which then spatters and gets multiplied by 100% and 30% again
you'd be essentially spattering 300% of your damage
hearty reef
got it
balmy condor
sanguine blades was bugged like that on gnarlroot at the start of season 3 and caused big issues
sanguine blades was like insano damage
lapis lantern
"That leads us to being under 50% instead. " (from the Deathstalker infos) - can some1 explain to me, what benefint i gain to be under 50% ? im fairly new
hearty reef
so lets say a s3 hybrid build without ap, we doubleshivved the kb target only to boost dmg on it, spatter dmg was the same regardles
balmy condor
this tier was 40% additional rupture damage
doing 80%
cause it double dipped the target mod
balmy condor
so lets say a s3 hybrid build without ap, we doubleshivved the kb target only to...
correct
royal lantern
"That leads us to being under 50% instead. " (from the Deathstalker infos) - can...
the tl:dr
sanguine blades bleed boost is not strong enough to make it worth it to actually play around it and miss out on envenom casts when envenom is such a huge part of our dmg rn
if we would play around beeing over 50%, you would lose out on envenom casts cus you would start pooling at some points
balmy condor
would much prefer the energy for more 
and more 
consumption.
is the main thing
that's basically it
royal lantern
overall, the energy part can be summed up with
"use abilitys, try to not go FULL dry if possible"
lapis lantern
if we would play around beeing over 50%, you would lose out on envenom casts cus...
because i would use too much energy on rupture, garrote, and tempest?
with SB
balmy condor
sanguine eating energy from gar and rup would lose envenom casts
lapis lantern
i see
balmy condor
tempest not so much of an issue cause you'd be in aoe and you'd have energy
lapis lantern
thank you guys
royal lantern
like, for fatebound and deathstalker both are basically
keep envenom running
nothing more
lapis lantern
im new to sin rogue, so another question 🙂 => does envenom has a small pandemic window?
royal lantern
ye
lapis lantern
like 1s ?
royal lantern
depeending on cp, bettwen 1 or 2 seconds most of the time
lapis lantern
thanks
royal lantern
like, he summs it up in the section good
lapis lantern
yea, thanks for that @balmy condor
slate crown
:3
lapis lantern
it's a bit overwhelming tbh ^^
royal lantern
deathstalker is basically "under 50% energy do some minor energy pooling instead of mindless slamming so you dont go fully out of energy"
fatebound is "do envenom chaining under 70%, if you go above 70% just slam so you dont cap"
just, use envenom
try to not go into 0 energy fast
subtle kiln
Maybe fuu can make a flow chart
royal lantern
unpopular opinion:
i really dont like the Sub FaQ
idk, i legit dont get any usefull information out of it
tawny junco
But it tells you everything
tawny junco
Literally everything
deep arch
I assume rupture being applied on mouseover is a known bug right
rotund oak
it can get rly complicated a spec.. can undertand that but the faq is on point 
balmy condor
I assume rupture being applied on mouseover is a known bug right
I mean if you have it on a mouseover macro, it should be applying on mouseover
it doesn't just auto-apply on mouseover
royal lantern
it can get rly complicated a spec.. can undertand that but the faq is on point <...
i like how i said "unpopular opinion" and literally not even 20seconds later 2 people tell me that im wrong
subtle kiln
idk, i legit dont get any usefull information out of it
You are bias as you don’t like sub. There’s also way too much to even remotely try to break that spec down into a simple do this than that.
royal lantern
what
subtle kiln
I said what I said.
subtle tundra
<:deathstalker:1271497472342229002> would much prefer the energy for more <:enve...
do ❓ you 🫵 have 🪝 mentally 🧠 problems👨🦯 ?
subtle kiln
storm forum
Sub faq hard carried by anime girl with textbubbles
tawny junco
i like how i said "unpopular opinion" and literally not even 20seconds later 2 p...
It's ok that you don't like it, but the motivation was strange
balmy condor
I'm personally not a fan of the overly cartoonish layout
like artistically it's very impressive
just isn't my thing
royal lantern
im one of those weirdos that likes to work with overly long opener sequences
hasty moat
Hello everyone, there is a macro on Echoing reprimand and Mutilate?
cursive frost
what do we drop to get SBS in hybrid build for M+?
slate crown
I assume rupture being applied on mouseover is a known bug right
Check
rotund oak
<:kekdog:907207037757296710>
yo man,just mentioning the obvious still love habibi
slate crown
My only idea
deep arch
I think it's just addon issue
hasty moat
togheter? you cant do that, they are both active GCD abilitys
Got it, are there any macros that make buttons easier?
broken ibex
I wonder if CB can just be macro'd to KB, since w/ Inevitability it can only be used on Envenom... and if we want to save it for DM windows, we can't use it on its 45 sec cooldown. Or am I misunderstanding the CB tech?
balmy condor
what
no
you want to use it on cooldown
you want to AVOID using it before a deathmark since that's a waste of edge case
if you macro it to KB, you dm->shiv->kb
now you have edge case and inevitability
and you waste the flip
it has to be the CB AFTER that envenom
broken ibex
Ah, got it. Thank you
balmy condor
np
slate crown
I love how these import codes make it look like whispyr is losing his mind AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
strange lotus
Looks clean
last skiff
fan of knives in single target
balmy condor
yepge
last skiff
yes clean!
balmy condor
that reminds me I should add the second fan of knives at the end
balmy condor
yeah
grand trail
very fire mr whispyr
balmy condor
instead of that first mut
grand trail
but you promised me that i can macro CB to anything
and now i have hold it into DM 😦 😄
broken ibex
cant wait for my Clear the Witness badge to go beside my discord name, lol.
last skiff
When you have only 1 kriss you do it before or after kingblade?
grand trail
that fatebound opener slaps
balmy condor
and now i have hold it into DM 😦 😄
for the extra little bit I guess yeah
grand trail
i have it on keybind instead of shadowdance so all good
balmy condor
When you have only 1 kriss you do it before or after kingblade?
honestly doesn't matter
as long as its covering kb it's fine
last skiff
@keen mantle put it in the 8 last second of kingsblade
last skiff
Ok
normal mist
Bro this looks clean as fuck, thanks for the amazing job
balmy condor
<@229386660326932481> put it in the 8 last second of kingsblade
yes
ebon notch
mut gar mut is 7 no?
What about the ER FoK one
balmy condor
don't gotta ping the guy for doing his rotation properly
balmy condor
What about the ER FoK one
well you start at 0, you ER that's 2, the fok is 2 that's 4, you're either on an animacharge or you crit and are on 5 or 6
so that's not an issue either
ebon notch
Ok cool
balmy condor
math hard
potent dagger
Do we have comparative sims yet for all the rogue specs, i'm curious to see the gap ?
potent dagger
OK thanks ^^
ebon notch
don't gotta ping the guy for doing his rotation properly
@keen mantle noob
last skiff
@balmy condor oppener at 9 target m+ with Indiscriminate Carnage
balmy condor
what about it
last skiff
will you do it?
grand trail
diff between injection and MA must be rather small or?
last skiff
Still struggle with the order
balmy condor
diff between injection and MA must be rather small or?
rapid injection on deathstalker is about 0.6% ahead, and 0.4% behind on fatebound
balmy condor
Still struggle with the order
you struggle going gar gar rup rup?
last skiff
you dont want to put 9 rupture?
balmy condor
no?
grand trail
im just reading fatebound rn
last skiff
so always 6 max?
last skiff
you struggle going gar gar rup rup?
balmy condor
so always 6 max?
6 max what
balmy condor
yeh if we're talking ruptures you don't need more than 5
subtle tundra
I read between the lines and I always think whispyr loves me when he gets mad at me
grand trail
i just noticed luicky coin animation for first time 😄
balmy condor
gz
grand trail
and i feel very lucky
balmy condor
what
potent dagger
I secretly have no idea what anything does
Joking about this sentence
balmy condor
oh
last skiff
I fucking love reading
dont really get why 5, it is not 3 + 3 if the pull is 6 target?
last skiff
I try
royal lantern
I secretly have no idea what anything does
just like me fr
balmy condor
okay whats 20 divided by 4
royal lantern
thats why i always ask questions about stuff on the Guides
royal lantern
okay whats 20 divided by 4
go away math man
potent dagger
last skiff
last skiff
Nah but I was speaking of Indiscriminate Carnage
potent dagger
20 because i will steal them since i'm a rogue
placid adder
carry the 2
last skiff
Didnt get it was other talent
potent dagger
I know that's a tendency not to swap target on the opening
balmy condor
yeah but rupture loses a lot of value when scent is capped
potent dagger
So main target +2 and the same target +2
last skiff
Ok thanks
balmy condor
So main target +2 and the same target +2
that works ye
slate crown
In the opener then for 
with fb, because you only get one envenom before you dm and proc edge case, should hold for after first envenom during dm?
(if not macroing obv)
balmy condor
yes
grand trail
damn momentum over blood in keys
balmy condor
no?
grand trail
so after opener i use it on cd
balmy condor
yes
potent dagger
That's bit already explained in the last pin ?
I think i read something about macroing it and forgetting it to spare a bind
naive crane
are we just using fok in the oepener sequence or later on in the rotation aswell?
royal lantern
Wait where do you use cb in the opener
after the first envenom during Kingsbane
after that on CD
haughty flicker
Ignore optimization and continue to have cb macroed 
balmy condor
are we just using fok in the oepener sequence or later on in the rotation aswell...
whenever clear the witnesses is up
broken ibex
everyone has a bind free now that we don't have dance 🙂
haughty flicker
I have like 30 binds free
royal lantern
everyone has a bind free now that we don't have dance 🙂
who the hell had dance as its own keybind
if anything we got new keybinds
spice spire
if anything we got new keybinds <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
Stay mad
Need more keybinds
Tbh
Need to feel something
shy pecan
if anything we got new keybinds <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
I had a separate one as well outside of the KB macro
balmy condor
tf are you guys doing with all those separate dance binds
subtle kiln
Pretending to play Sub
shy pecan
subtle kiln
covert jewel
sub had it on another bind 
shy pecan
It was the same binding for me for when I played sub as well, so it didn't mess with me
rotund oak
tf are you guys doing with all those separate dance binds
hybrid should be the most overall dmg in m+,above cleave/bleed builds
right?
balmy condor
yes
rotund oak
now i undertand what u meant u are right
subtle tundra
after the first envenom during Kingsbane
Ah so if I have it macrod it means I'm not playing it correctly
Yikes
royal lantern
Ah so if I have it macrod it means I'm not playing it correctly
kinda, yeha
iirc its more of a small thing?
subtle tundra
Then why whispyr make it a thing. He is the advocate of not adding shit for small gains
royal lantern
its just that you waste a guranteed flip if you macro it, cus it will happen on pull+every 3min directly during DM start then
subtle tundra
I will kiss his mouth if he tells ne
royal lantern
like
DM gives you the "both flips at once"
then you do 1x envenom and its a normal chain again
and you want CB then for that chain
cus the guranteed same flip would go into nothing otherwhise
subtle tundra
Well tbh I think also having a rule besides macroing it will be good. You don't always get it on cd, there's intermissions and other shit
balmy condor
Then why whispyr make it a thing. He is the advocate of not adding shit for smal...
it's 0.4%
royal lantern
so its always dm->kb->envenom->Cold blood
then Cold Blood on CD
when Cold Blood would overlap with DM, again wait until you did DM->KB->envenom->coldblood
grand trail
man im still blown that momentum > blood in aoe
royal lantern
its on pull and once every 3min if you have no downtimes
balmy condor
man im still blown that momentum > blood in aoe
why though
grand trail
idk blood feel like such a aoe node
royal lantern
Come here let me taste your lips
they taste like Monster White
balmy condor
it's 15% ct damage vs 25% ct damage
except the 15% ct damage
also comes with extra cp
and extra fok damage
and extra crit damage for fok and ct
subtle tundra
Idc rn but at some point I'll probably want some kind of rule for when I can't use cb on cd so it gets delayed
balmy condor
wdym
subtle tundra
Like uh
balmy condor
tryan just gave you the rule
royal lantern
Idc rn but at some point I'll probably want some kind of rule for when I can't u...
you delay it when DM would be happening before you did the 2 CB boosted finishers
subtle tundra
Idk maybe I'm over thinking it
subtle tundra
Will complain once raid is out
royal lantern
so like, DM in the next 10seconds? dont use CB and wait until you did the first envenom inside DM
slate crown
or you're not thinking at all
do not think
balmy condor
so like, DM in the next 10seconds? dont use CB and wait until you did the first ...
apl is actually 10 seconds
rotund oak
do not think
the WA pack is dope i like it very much
grand trail
inev and jeopardy overlap in opener there is no other way around it or?
balmy condor
I'm gonna scream
slate crown
the WA pack is dope i like it very much
Thanks, I've been making updates this morning too btw for pooling conditions and made a new standalone (and in the pack) for fatebound coins to indicate 5 stacks for vanish
royal lantern
apl is actually 10 seconds <:KEKL:853389406051631104>
it was just a rough number i spit out cus normaly every 3rd-4th GCD is a finisher lol
so i was like "yeha, 10sec should be enough for 2x envenom i gues"
rotund oak
Thanks, I've been making updates this morning too btw for pooling conditions and...
yeah ive got all new stuff after i started testing sin,its the best u did amazing job 👌
grand trail
jeopardy inev edge cases in opener 
rotund oak
I'm gonna scream
btw on ST rotation u CB that envenom(coz coldblood appears last in that sequence)
st with bonespike
balmy condor
Last in which sequence
balmy condor
You cb after the envenom
royal lantern
you want to create a "normal" chain again, cus the CB guranteed flip doesnt work with the Edge Case flip
iirc
rotund oak
yeah that makes sense i just wanted to clarify
so there is no reason to macro cb to anywhere
manual diff bind
royal lantern
you dm and do 1 envenom->use CB and the next 2 envenoms are the same now, then use CB on CD until you have a moment where CB and DM will overlap again
rotund oak
send as intended
grand trail
yeha but look what about the jeopardy and inev from CB overalp?
royal lantern
i mean, you could just make a Envenom + CB macro, and somewhere on the side a "normal" envenom for the pull + every 3min envenom
balmy condor
yeha but look what about the jeopardy and inev from CB overalp?
What about it
rotund oak
This shit is cracked
ive bought all mounts and all the rogue stuff and some toys i was missing,ended like over a month ago,it was very fun
grand trail
it say next envenom after stealth break will be guarantted so dont we want to use CB after we consume this?
balmy condor
It can’t be tails+heads actually
grand trail
ok thats easier on my brain
vestal wren
we should add the trickster coin minigame to moroes
balmy condor
It’s 2 flips, they match each other, they don’t match the previous flip
royal lantern
we should add the trickster coin minigame to moroes
we should fucking delete fatebound
and deathstalker
and trickster
grand trail
yeah i read it wrong
royal lantern
cus its all cursed
grand trail
if you dont get this from opener you just wipe and go again right
rotund oak
doesnt matter all that much tbh
u will get it eventually
but if u do u just meme a log
grand trail
i mean sometimes you play boss fight with extra agi and sometimes dont
royal lantern
its not more impactfull then getting our current weapon enchants procing during opener cds
grand trail
sure
royal lantern
which, you know, happens quiet frequently
grand trail
but it will still make me sad
royal lantern
and not many complain about that lol
rotund oak
got a separated mind right now for deathstalker vs fatebound
flow says fatebound
er says deathstalker
grand trail
i would play w/e but playing rn DS with bniugged ER
not cool
opener is disaster if you landing on ER charges
rotund oak
but i like er man
ok i think sin is pretty str8 forward i like it more for raids 100%
need to test sub in keys now
nimble zinc
Do we know if Fatebound or deathstalker will be better for raid in TWW ?
rotund oak
right now they are equal pretty much in terms of dmg
deathstalker looks more cringe coz has mark issues
fatebound looks the safest pick
has the flow,same dmg
less downsides
plucky haven
One quick question regarding our normal rotation and the burst window during aoe with around 5 targets: Is it normal that your bleeds especially ruptures fall off to 1 or 0 enemies and you spread them anew after kingsbane ended or do I have to pay attention on all these bleeds all the time? Thx for your feedback 🙏🏻
shy pecan
Do we know if Fatebound or deathstalker will be better for raid in TWW ?
We have potential tuning until after heroic week, so no.
nimble zinc
kk solid
grim jay
has the flow,same dmg
I think "has the flow" is misleading
because it has no flow
its just not intrusive to the spec gameplay
nimble zinc
for some reason i was under the impression that one was more bursty and the other was better sustained
hardy rapids
Speaking of hero talents, how much do they alter the normal playstyle/rotation?
are they drastic or are they just slight changes
hardy rapids
ty
abstract jacinth
Coming back for the expansion and my god the hero talents just look so sad, especially after reading whispyr's thoughts I'm inclined to agree that the tree just look counterintuitive more than anything
normal mist
Yes
rotund oak
its just not intrusive to the spec gameplay
its a tree that compliments the flow of the spec,it follows it as one,not much happening outside passive stuff and CB which u choose how to utilize.You flip stuff it buffs stuff or does dmg accordingly
abstract jacinth
It might be time to go to the BM hunter or FDK this season 😦
rotund oak
but ye i get what u mean but non intrusive
abstract jacinth
Any news on if they plan to overhaul the hero talents or is that just wishful thinking lol
grim jay
Any news on if they plan to overhaul the hero talents or is that just wishful th...
they arent as bad as you just said
nimble zinc
Pins have info
TLDR; Fatebound sounds better atm, but there's still some RNG element of outlaw present.
abstract jacinth
they arent as bad as you just said
https://www.wowhead.com/news/assassination-rogue-review-of-deathstalker-hero-talents-lacking-vision-in-the-342217 reading this makes me think otherwise personally
grim jay
https://www.wowhead.com/news/assassination-rogue-review-of-deathstalker-hero-tal...
ive read all of it
but its made to highlight issues
nimble zinc
I just feel like they made Deathstalker way more complicated than it needs to be.
grim jay
fatebound is just there, it does nothing you will notice really and the core spec is fun and as good as it has ever been
nimble zinc
like ONLY your stealth ambush applies it, -- blindside, IC, etc. dont count
desert cove
If they actually bugfix deathstalker it would be playable
grim jay
fatebound is just there, it does nothing you will notice really and the core spe...
which means in total its still a fun time
potent raven
deathstalker too much effort
grim jay
deathstalker has just issues in 10% of the gameplay cases but they are beyond stupid in those cases
balmy condor
https://www.wowhead.com/news/assassination-rogue-review-of-deathstalker-hero-tal...
That’s two months old my guy
nimble zinc
which means in total its still a fun time
yeah i feel like fatebound is more passive buff? doesnt really change your rotation.
grim jay
yeah i feel like fatebound is more passive buff? doesnt really change your rotat...
kinda
abstract jacinth
I'll reread the talent trees
potent raven
yeai l ike itr
nimble zinc
I like the formatting btw
yeah he gouda writer / designer skills
balmy condor
I like the formatting btw
thanks
grim jay
did you ambush first gcd ?
odd wolf
yes
grim jay
do you have it enabled on your plater settings?
odd wolf
yes
patent valley
Is there a plater script/mod out there to change a mob's HP color if I have all 3 garrote/rupture/crimson tempest applied?
lyric glen
need an ai to write plater code
shadow cloud
What do I have to do reset a boss as rogue, I've tried poison knife into vanish, facepull into vanish, none seem to work. Am I doing it right and just didn't notice that I got a heal or am I missing something here
strange python
past forum
What do I have to do reset a boss as rogue, I've tried poison knife into vanish,...
Do you vanish while the knife is in transit? Always works for me
royal lantern
let the hunter/mage do it
past forum
But yeah let them do it
royal lantern
cus its timing is way more tight for rogue
and if something procs from the throwing knife it doesnt work aswell