assassination

[balmy condor]

yeh

[shy pecan]

I love FoK during ST gameplay

[unborn wharf]

what's stoppin ya from just shiving every 30 seconds, arterial precision for the bleed buff?

[balmy condor]

nothing I guess if you don't want to double shiv deathmark

[spice surge]

Well you can, just having 2x shivs for cooldowns is really good

The bleed part is just more relevant on aoe than the nature part

[unborn wharf]

wait if this build doesnt run artieral or kingsbane then whats the damage interaction from deathmark and shiv?

[runic hinge]

Dm still doubles poisons

[balmy condor]

yeh

and you're casting envenoms

[spice surge]

Yes but doubling poisons on one target

[balmy condor]

and envenoms are good

[spice surge]

Is less effectful on aoe than on ST

[unborn wharf]

ah right right right

ok but is anything stopping you from deathmark 2x shiv and then shiv off cooldown for the next 2 charges and getting them back up for deathmark?

we gotta enter the mind palace

[balmy condor]

no

that's the gameplay

[royal lantern]

whisp

please take your meds

[unborn wharf]

sold

[royal lantern]

thank you and goodnight

[storm forum]

why don't you want me to be happy?

[runic hinge]

I want to go back in time and not be afraid of the snapshotting in s3 sl and play ct in st again

[balmy condor]

\

[balmy condor]

nah it's just the hard killed it with how CT scales now

[shy pecan]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[balmy condor]

2 target CT is 40% stronger per tick than 1 target CT

so technically 2 target CT is a total of +180% damage compared to a 1 target CT

and it's already not worth on 2 targets

so in order to be worth in single target

something has to go terribly wrong

[spice surge]

Just add 8% more every week until its worth it on ST

[storm forum]

blizzard hates me

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna go check how much they need to buff CT in order to make it worth casting in single target

[hearty reef]

finisher spec?

[spice surge]

[bronze pike]

69%

with a margin of error of 420%

[royal lantern]

no you dont

its 1am, sleepy time

[spice surge]

1am and no tuning yet? smh my head blizzardi

[spice spire]

Brother seek grass

[balmy condor]

little bit over 50%

[agile geode]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[subtle kiln]

You’re in the wrong discord if you are expecting happiness.

[tacit vessel]

are there no builds for beta here?

[spice surge]

Its in the pins

[quaint haven]

do you play around sanguine blades on ST

[runic hinge]

!pooling

[prisma monolith]

Read About Pooling
Video
TLDR:```- Outside of Cooldowns, you want to wait until your envenom is in pandemic/around 1 second in order to proc tier. This is the core concept of "chaining", where you clip envenoms back to back

• If it's getting uncomfortable to chain, or you have to let envenom drop, pool back up to around 80% energy, and then start another chain
• Always wait to envenom, never wait to mutilate/ambush. You want to generate your combo points as soon as possible, and then evaluate whether you should pool or use a finisher
• Without 4 piece, chaining envenoms has no benefit and you can try to be above 50% energy for sanguine
• With 4 piece, the chain takes priority over sanguine and you would play around the tier, not sanguine```The reason we do this is to maximize uptimes and tier procs which is a more efficient energy use

[rain mortar]

Fun fact - I do a lot of pvp as well as pve - was in a 2400+ rbg and this sin rogue legit said to me “why are you casting envenoms you only cast CT” - he was talking about in ST on the FC. He was reapplying CT over and over and never pressed envenom hahaha

[balmy condor]

[runic hinge]

At 2400??

Damn. I need to get carried

[tall jay]

Just press ct

🙂

[runic hinge]

I’m running a no kb build in bgs rn and it feels alright.

But I’m definitely pressing envenom lol

[cyan dew]

In AoE do I keep applying rup and garrote on all targets or is there a limit?

[spice surge]

If you have scent of blood you keep atleast 5 stacks of rupture, if not you just apply enough bleeds to sustain your energy

[cyan dew]

it's usually how many? I'm just starting and I dnk have a clue how many is necessary...

[spice surge]

4-5ish

But depends a bit on what talent you run

[cyan dew]

So a good rule of thumb is 4/5. 5 with scent

and see if I run out of energy?

[spice surge]

If you run out of energy you shouldve ruptured more

If you overcap too much energy (outside of IC applied bleeds) you probably shouldve envenomed more

[indigo mulch]

[cyan dew]

Got it. ty Eleem. When on IC do I keep garroting/rup everything I see?

or bleeds don't do that much damage and is better to poison?

[balmy condor]

during carnage you want to spread bleeds yes

[coarse vigil]

How’s the rankings for rogue specs in PvE, specifically m+. Seeing conflicting between sub and sin

Definitely want to return to rogue but heard outlaw got gutted

[spice surge]

All 3 specs are good

Theyre tuning things every week, whats good now is completely irrelevant when the season launches

[coarse vigil]

Sounds good, appreciate it

[indigo mulch]

Super hard to predict whats going to be good or not good when they are throwing tuning patches around every week.

[pulsar elk]

Hello, new to assass rouge. If i already have my 5-6 garrots out, I wouldnt need to vanish before deathmark?

[balmy condor]

As long as improved garrote covers deathmark you can do it however you’d like

[raven egret]

How are you all doing my fellow sin rogues

[karmic merlin]

yall got any of them sims

https://tenor.com/view/tyrone-biggums-smile-scratch-neck-high-gif-14686184

[balmy condor]

What would sims do for you

[hoary remnant]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/class-tuning-hotfixes-august-6th-the-war-within-beta-345699?utm_source=discord-webhook
guess we get lots of bugfixing right?

[balmy condor]

Surely

[blazing jewel]

📈

[balmy condor]

I look tomorrow

[ornate gazelle]

Allow us join the "sims" conversations with our fellow guildies and having no idea what we're talking about

[silk bane]

dont

[desert cove]

||gouge got a 5s cd nerf||

[slate crown]

It's a looker that's for sure

[balmy condor]

It’s okay you don’t wanna know

[desert cove]

[balmy condor]

Why

[slate crown]

yo spoiler tag that shit

[hoary remnant]

true man I alwys take that talent

blind is to weak

[silk bane]

nothings been fixed atleast for sub apparently

if you mena the patch notes, yeah its just a gouge nerf

[spice surge]

Not sure why the talent exists in our class tree and not as a pvp talent

[hoary remnant]

if they dont bring a beta build this week. Its done with big beta stuff. They are just doing hotfixes

[pulsar elk]

Is there a certain poison i should be using in m+ and raid?

[ornate gazelle]

Ignorance is bliss! Thanks for all your hard work btw dude

[balmy condor]

You always use the poisons you talent into

[slate crown]

I honestly love gouge, it's such an iconic spell/animation/feel to cast except it just has no place in this version of the game especially when competing against airborne

I wish they'd make it baseline

[balmy condor]

Np, if you wanna join the convo with your guildies you can relate to your guilds warlocks by saying “I heard you guys are casting rain of fire in single target, well I’m casting fok in single target so we’re basically twinning!”

[pulsar elk]

oh okay; I got amp, atrophic, deadly, and instant. I know i can put 3 on as far as i know

[balmy condor]

Well

You can either do 2 or 4

Either 1 lethal + 1 non lethal, or 2+2

If you have amp I assume you’re taking dragon tempered blades

So then you’d take deadly and amp for your two lethal poisons, those are talents

And you’d take atrophic, that’s a talent

And for the last non-lethal your only option left is crippling

[pulsar elk]

yeah, build i got from wowhead uses it

[balmy condor]

Yeh

Crippling as well

[runic hinge]

[past forum]

So to take bone spike in keys, you’d have to drop MA + something good from the bottom, yeah?

[south lava]

Anyone know when is the next class tuning?

[shy pecan]

One went out today

For beta.

[frigid kestrel]

No rogue changes from what i saw

but i am blind

[past forum]

no, it was gouge that got changed...not blind

[ionic ermine]

No I'm Blind

[south lava]

When do we use kingsbane

At the start of the pack? Or should i hold

Any suggestions

Please

[desert gate]

Ive always been applying it after I deathmark my poisons/bleeds

[spark rain]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater
Pooling Practice Tool

[rotund oak]

[gray flower]

no beta build today?

[shy pecan]

One came out. Just not a lot of changes

[willow rapids]

Was hotfixes, don't think that's considered a new build

[silk bane]

^ that is also my copium

surely tmrw

surely

[willow rapids]

I'm more "afraid" it's the only thing we get

[shy pecan]

I mean. At this point, it’s just tuning numbers and bug fixes.

[south lava]

Is this a nerf or just for pvp only

They are wayy strongg

[runic hinge]

pvp it looks like

[errant trail]

I got

some

serious questiosn

[willow rapids]

Well ye, but that hotfix barely had those

[errant trail]

???????

im noticing this trend

why rogues taking away lightweight shiv

[balmy condor]

To take something better

[errant trail]

You think this is worth?

Kingsbane down

[balmy condor]

Like amp poison or doomblade in order to reach sbs

[errant trail]

im gonna try it

Man one shiv window is eh

so how do we utilize tea with this

[balmy condor]

Yeah it’s an an obvious move, lightweight shiv kinda blows

Wdym

Same rules

[errant trail]

So like

We only tea with shiv correct?

but now with only one charge

its likely we will be cappin tea charges?

or

[balmy condor]

No?

[errant trail]

hm'

[balmy condor]

You shiv once every 30 seconds instead of twice every minute

[vestal wren]

shiv is like symbols of death 🙈

[errant trail]

😦

you think this will be the move?

i guess i have to get used to it

[balmy condor]

An extra charge doesn’t mean less casts ya know

[vestal wren]

it means one extra cast over the fight

[errant trail]

yea true

[vestal wren]

and more dynamic in use

its similar to one extra vanish charge

[errant trail]

So how would you fit that into

the ramp

So shiv like normal and just deal with only 1 charge

[balmy condor]

You would shiv on cooldown between kb and then shiv the last 8 of kb

[errant trail]

Oh shiv on CD li

and when KB is rampin

8 secs u hit it

makes sense

[grim jay]

Wasnt that what we had in a build shortly after rework

Like the AP build had lw shiv

And Hybrid didnt have it?

Or was it just something cursed ive seen

[errant trail]

this build

is really interesting

im going to try it right now

shrouded/SBS

feel SUPER good

[balmy condor]

Yes

[runic hinge]

This is interesting

[balmy condor]

Although lowkey I think we just drop amp for it

[errant trail]

im gonna watch closely

[runic hinge]

I think I played something like it in s3 for a bit but I hated not having AP

[grim jay]

I honestly liked that version

[errant trail]

i was just looking around warcraft logs

[grim jay]

Going instant and deadly

[errant trail]

and i saw this extrodinary rogue named

Wowtoxic

and he was running this

a week ago

i was like wow

this seems interesting

[balmy condor]

Like most of the builds dslice spits out aren’t dtb

And if they are, they’re not deadly/amp

[errant trail]

so question tho

how come this build isnt in wowhead is it because its not really considered viable rn?

honest question

[grim jay]

Whispyr bamboozled me

[runic hinge]

too early to tell what's good

[errant trail]

yeah

i guess so

[balmy condor]

Because this is

[errant trail]

yeah amp is gone

i see that

you did say a couple days ago amp isnt that good

[balmy condor]

Correct

[grim jay]

I think its pretty cool honestly, deadly with instant feels pretty OG and I never really liked amp

[errant trail]

sry i was just curious LoL

[balmy condor]

There’s a ton of garbage talents

Especially in single target, sanguine and rapid injection suck too

Fatebound probably is dropping rapid injection for master assassin

[errant trail]

how about instant poison whats your opinion on it compared to amp?

[runic hinge]

make poison bomb great again ( i didn't play rogue in legion)

[balmy condor]

It’s amp without the envenom buff idk man

Like deadly, instant, and amp

All deal the same damage

Deadly has a bonus dot

Amp has a bonus env buff

[errant trail]

you make a good point

[balmy condor]

How am I supposed to have an opinion on that

[errant trail]

LOL

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/172564751640035328/798336841865494578/image0.gif

[balmy condor]

The other fun version of that question is “Whispyr what’s your opinion on X build” and I go “well it’s in the guide isn’t it, so it’s good enough to recommend as an option”

And then the follow up of “but this build isn’t” and I go “yeah, so if it’s not in the guide, it’s not good enough to recommend as an option”

[grim jay]

Whispyr whats your opinion on the double vanish build ive seen Mr Z play

[balmy condor]

Mr alphabet

[grim jay]

I really cant wait for that to pop up all the time

[patent igloo]

i use it, i blast

[marble meteor]

!sims

[prisma monolith]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[grim jay]

The real question is

With the plague and cosmic damage

Will void elf be better?

[balmy condor]

What

Why would it be

[grim jay]

Nvm im stupid and literally didnt read right

For the last months

Or maybe I never did

[balmy condor]

Inability to read is cause for much confusion in the world of Warcraft community

[shrewd night]

Id go with never

[grim jay]

F u and your pranks, babe

[grim jay]

Based

Same issue in bdo

[shrewd night]

[grim jay]

And I played that aswell

Checks out

[balmy condor]

It’s okay Maplestory same issue

They kick people from the server for asking a guide question

And then they rejoin and go “wtf why was I kicked”

And they get kicked a second time

[shrewd night]

Why arent we doing that

[grim jay]

https://tenor.com/view/tumbleweed-desert-road-dry-hot-gif-21341693

Our server

If you did that

[balmy condor]

Some of them are fucking wild man, they straight up write into the rules that asking basic faq/guide questions results in unwarned bans

[shrewd night]

Ok, but is realz rogue designer?

[balmy condor]

That’s sadly not in faq or guides

You’re safe

[grim jay]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-falling-kitten-cat-falling-over-falling-over-gif-3627024223538023926

[runic hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-ghost-float-gif-17033763

[shrewd night]

[random fossil]

Cat

[grim jay]

Dont call meownar cat

He is undercover

[shrewd night]

huh

[random fossil]

Dog

[runic hinge]

banger emote

i need people to know im sad but still cool AF

[shrewd night]

Its a way of life

[grim jay]

Maybe we should add that

No namecalling for wow devs

[balmy condor]

“Do not ask a question answered in the faq” is a rule for this one

Incredibly based

[grim jay]

How long are guide and FAQ tho

[balmy condor]

Depends on layout

[grim jay]

Incredibly based if they are 5h essays

[balmy condor]

Some of them are pretty long

But a lot of it isn’t rotational stuff or anything

And it’s just like

Actual basic info

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iQfiF7q78bmZtBujnLcAkDNDjqiHqm7iZ2QjUfKRd-g/edit?usp=sharing

This is what they link for my main

[grim jay]

Id accept questions on that picture

[balmy condor]

Probably just mobile jank

It doesn’t look like that

[grim jay]

Quite likely. Kinda happens often on different stuff lately

[balmy condor]

and then there's other class discords where they're like "needing" to make videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79S7CmM1oFs

like this shit

actual street fighter ass class

a ton of their skills have forced movement and they just straight up animation cancel all of it

as a designed feature of the class

shit is crazy

[grim jay]

I think thats pretty cool. Always liked that in games where its possible, some added skill expression

[midnight mist]

wait what

why did i always think maplestorry was some sort of gardenning game

am i stupid

[grim jay]

Thats moondew valley

Or what its called

[runic hinge]

stardew

[grim jay]

Oh

See, Tony is a real garden gamer

[balmy condor]

idk

[midnight mist]

[balmy condor]

maybe cause it has a mushroom as a mascot

[runic hinge]

i bought it for my gf

[midnight mist]

i tought you were all playing gardenning bro

[runic hinge]

cause she beat animal crossing

[midnight mist]

not some combat game

what is this

[balmy condor]

2D mmo

it's like a 2D platformer but with mmo combat and bosses

very grindy however

[grim jay]

My ex played that with her friends sometimes

[balmy condor]

korean mmo what can you do

[midnight mist]

i see

[grim jay]

I think they got better over time tbf

Some atleast

[midnight mist]

well enjoy your gardenning whispyr it sounds fun !

[balmy condor]

ty ty

[balmy condor]

yeah they giga nerfed exp requirements and giga buffed exp from dailies 6-7 months ago

atm I'm basically just doing dailies and logging out

and it's around 4.5% exp at my level

really good

[grim jay]

They probably realized it doesnt suit people in the West that much overall

[balmy condor]

I mean they have different game versions for west, korea, and oceanic

they recently also hired back an entire dev team for the west and changed the head of western developmment

very hype

[grim jay]

Like lost ark adjusted stuff, bdo adjusted stuff and Throne and Liberty already adjusts stuff pre release.

[grim jay]

Probably the best move and what most of them have

Throne and liberty wont, so im curious how that will play out

[balmy condor]

his first announcement as new head dev was "I know you guys don't like the changes that just got added to korea, and neither do we, so we're not gonna do it"

was like a week after his promotion

insanely based

[errant trail]

omg

[balmy condor]

he had a big speech as a gamedev conference about localization and designing the game around the region's audience

was very cool actually

[errant trail]

i would be kicked so fast i ask so many of the same questions

im sry

[balmy condor]

lmao you're good dude

[grim jay]

Based dude. Honestly a big advantage if they add stuff to korean versions ahead of time so they can see how the other regions react. Its the same in bdo and they scrap stuff thats getting received badly

[balmy condor]

we usually get the korean patches staggered by 1 major patch (around 6 months)

so our winter update was korea's summer update that year

[pure sparrow]

aoe rotation question

if CT expires in the middle of KB, would you refresh CT or just keep envenoming

[balmy condor]

typically would want to refresh CT

the main thing about envenom during KB is uptime of the buff

[pure sparrow]

ah okay so as long as you're not letting the envenom buff fall off while you're CT'ing, it's fine

is that the same for rupture if rupture needs to be reapplied during KB?

or does the 5-6 seconds of rupture not outweigh another envenom pop

[runic hinge]

You need rupture for caustic so you should make sure it’s not gonna fall off

[balmy condor]

yeah

[pure sparrow]

ye but if still had caustic up, like if you mutilated the last second of the rupture to refresh your caustic debuff knowing its gonna expire in a second, are you cool to just ride the debuff until after KB and then reapply rupture after?

[balmy condor]

probably not

if you already know that your target is gonna live long enough until not only KB expires, but you also then have the time to reapply rupture after

you should just rupture during the KB

[marble hemlock]

i see whispyr is peddling maplestory again

do not believe his lies

[balmy condor]

great game

ramfam believed the propaganda

look at him now

he's hitting endgame on his like 3rd char or something

bro is blasting

[grim jay]

I couldnt even if I wanted to. 2 releases next month, both time consuming

[marble hemlock]

ye

he abandoned wow

you made us lose an incredible person and player

[grim jay]

He will come back someday

Just like oxi

[marble hemlock]

hopefully not, wow sucks

[grim jay]

[marble hemlock]

same for oxi

happy for anybody who kicked the wow habit

[hardy dagger]

Heavily depends on wich guild you play in imo

[grim jay]

Its actually incredible how many people are just waiting for a good release

(since years, never happens)

[normal mist]

Waiting for a good release is just like waiting for the right time to have a child

[shrewd night]

Calm down, moondew boi

[runic hinge]

I always find wow good

[marble hemlock]

https://tenor.com/view/sound-like-anchorman-paul-rudd-mental-problems-losing-gif-3523624

[royal lantern]

its just, you almost always feel like "they are SO close to make it really really fucking great"

and you keep going

[vestal wren]

i like this and also the 24h mutes

[royal lantern]

fuu is choosing violence

[vestal wren]

sry i mean timeouts not mutes

(its the same thing, just diffrent wording)

[normal mist]

Yeah, fuu is choosing violence

[grim jay]

Moondew is actually kinda solid

Maybe I should start a brand focusing on drinks

Called moondew

[grim jay]

Its both sides really. New releases either do something weird or dont continue with something thats well received and on the other hand blizz does something right again, getting you hyped up

[royal lantern]

yep

[normal mist]

You know what they did right?

Legion

[royal lantern]

also helps that wow has also a extremely strong base foundation

[elder saddle]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[eager thunder]

hi everyone, I play rogue since vanilla and for TWW I join a raid roster, you think Rogue are very good for raid in TWW?

[grim jay]

Depends on tuning

Rogue is never bad tho

[normal mist]

Ask again in a few weeks

[royal lantern]

and if it is for the raidspot, it doesnt matter anyway lol

cus like, they want a rogue, you have the spot, if the class is overall in a kinda weird/weak spot, they still want a rogue

[tawny pawn]

Well, usually assa is the better one for raiding, not always, but usually blizzard seems to want assa on top bracket dps in raids

[rotund oak]

maple is a great game though

[tawny pawn]

But its basicly what Tryan said, if you player a raid buff class (which rogues have one, their poison decrese the damage the boss does about 3%+, you will be on the roster rogue being good or not

[eager thunder]

ok good, i love play assa, sub is boring...

[mild kite]

Assa Rogue can be a little confusing at first is there a good site or walk thru to better understand how it plays?

[rotund oak]

youtube channel,search for whispyr

has tens of vids u can check for everything

[mild kite]

thank you

[rotund oak]

u r welcome friend

[shrewd night]

Theres also resources in the FAQS in the channel list

[wind dune]

I have come here to confess. I really enjoy the new bonespike change and will have a hard time going back for M+

i hope its not too much dps loss

😦

[royal lantern]

you want to introduce the rule, i can feel it

[balmy condor]

bone spike is taken in most every m+ build

[wind dune]

i feel validated thank you whispyr

happy to hear, it plays so well

[shrewd night]

I meeeeeeeeean

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/good-palpa-cringe-empire-dig-em-gif-22144534

[rotund oak]

[gusty estuary]

I really want to be good with Sin in M+/AOE but this is all a bit overwhleming. And I'm still just trying to keep track of bleeds and whatnot on dummies. Imagine mechanics in the middle. I admire you all at this point 😄

[rotund oak]

U will get there fam

a good plater profile can help significally to track ur stuff

[exotic hazel]

Tried some M+ last night, admittedly in a few +8's with only 490ilvl

And was getting a measly 300k overall DPS

It's going to take some time 😂

[normal mist]

That's probably an ilvl issue

[exotic hazel]

Also my trinkets were Nelths Call To Suffering and Ashes of the Embersoul

Not great

[potent raven]

no those are pretty good trinkets

can use torch instead of nelth

[exotic hazel]

Oh are they? Thought they were pretty mid for M+

[potent raven]

ashes is bis

nelth is ok

[balmy condor]

nelth would be the next best option if you dont want to run double on use

its quite good

[exotic hazel]

Yeah I took it as per your guide to avoid having 2 on-uses 😉

[balmy condor]

yeh

basically bis

[exotic hazel]

Ah cool

Now I just need to get used to being squishy again

Feint is my friend, I must not forget it exists

[main forge]

Ashes just lines up so good with our cds. But beware of other on use trinkets, they might give a small cd on ashes if you dont time it well fx reset on Manic Grieftorch due to teammate dying less than 20 seconds before your burst cds are up 😬

[slow pulsar]

on prepatch, what talent/passive makes rupture recover combo points on application sometimes?

[balmy condor]

bone spike

[slow pulsar]

i see

thanks

[arctic portal]

[lucid meteor]

A little confused about the wording, is that saying rupture auto applies bonespike?

[spice spire]

Yes

[lucid meteor]

Kinda sick!

[main forge]

The added cp only is on the first application of rupture not reapplication

[kind forge]

did you ?

[spice surge]

No, its on every rupture that uses a bonespike

[arctic portal]

no but i'm stupid

Don't be like me

[ashen plank]

atleast you live in bliss right ?

[main forge]

I just retested. You are right, and much better worded.

[paper ibex]

hi guys what is the best build on mm+ actually for assa ?

[balmy condor]

depends on your group, the dungeon, the key level, how long prio targets are surviving, how much of a problem the bosses are, how much you care about single target vs overall, and probably also your gear

[paper ibex]

I just want the one that is meta

[grim jay]

[spice surge]

The ones in the pins

[exotic hazel]

I don't want to think about the answer, or know why it's the answer... I just want AN answer

[grim jay]

Thats what build diversity does

[paper ibex]

from what i have seen bleed is better

[exotic hazel]

What have you seen?

Where have you seen it?

When did you see it?

[paper ibex]

in the top rio I only see bleed

[exotic hazel]

For what key level?

In what gear?

With what comp?

[normal mist]

Noyzey has a point

[exotic hazel]

I'm a pointy man

[normal mist]

The pointiest

[paper ibex]

It's hard to talk about all that when you play in ramdom I don't choose my comp I just want to do my DPS job

[exotic hazel]

Rogue has more jobs than DPS

[normal mist]

Then choose any build

And you'll do fine

Those from the pins

[paper ibex]

I know but choosing the build that does the most dps is my job

[exotic hazel]

If you're looking for 'which build is easiest', then the standard bleed build would be your go-to

[grim jay]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-who-you-calling-pinhead-gif-24253500

[grim jay]

They are kinda the same ngl

[exotic hazel]

If you're looking for 'which build does the most dps' then the aforementioned factors need to be determined

[normal mist]

Low keys, mid keys, big ass keys?

[grim jay]

Dont forget toddler keys

[normal mist]

Damn it

[spice surge]

If there was "one best build for everything", we wouldve recommended it to you

There isnt

Thats why the answers are vague

[paper ibex]

tell me for mid and big ass key

plz

[spice surge]

#assassination message

[normal mist]

That narrows it down

[exotic hazel]

Hold up, not yet

What is YOUR definition of mid keys and big ass keys

Give us numbers!

[normal mist]

Damn you got me there

[paper ibex]

I will rephrase that this build is closest to the meta for tww for big keys

[exotic hazel]

And again I ask, what do you define as big keys

What key level is 'big' for you?

[paper ibex]

20 ++

[exotic hazel]

And you're pugging these, yes?

[balmy condor]

this is painful to watch

[exotic hazel]

I'm almost asking for the a/s/l at this point

[grim jay]

In a positive or negative way

[drifting cloud]

now you know how we feel

[grim jay]

T-t-t-triple

[paper ibex]

I just took a break but yes

[exotic hazel]

(wait til this guy finds out I have absolutely no clue what builds are good or bad in any scenario)

[stoic needle]

Hello sin gang

[normal mist]

Yoo

[normal mist]

LOOOOOOOL

[paper ibex]

you talk a lot for nothing xd

[grim jay]

Hello Isohso

[exotic hazel]

How tall are you?

When did you last eat?

[stoic needle]

Is mastery good for sin yet

[normal mist]

Huge keys it's most likely cleave build where things tend to live way longer

[grim jay]

Just play the bleed build, probably the least affected by randoms

[balmy condor]

we gave you plenty of answers you just refuse to accept that maybe there isn't one perfect build

[normal mist]

Instead of mastery swap it for stats

And yes stats are good for sin

[balmy condor]

crit haste and mast all very close, crit a bit higher for fatebound

[stoic needle]

Gotta get those big fat envenom crits

[paper ibex]

In my opinion, the perfect build is the one that all the big players use, we're talking about maybe 1%.

[exotic hazel]

Is stats good for mastery sin?

[stoic needle]

Numbers aside are both the hero talent trees enjoyable mechanically to play?

[drifting cloud]

lmao

[normal mist]

Like 2 meters tall?

[gusty estuary]

amagad

[spice surge]

A. They use different builds
B. Not necessarily

[exotic hazel]

C. I have nothing. I'm done.

[balmy condor]

not really

fatebound has no real mechanical play

deathstalker mark isn't really interesting either and gets lost in m+ a bunch

[drifting cloud]

excuse me, have you not seen the kush clip

[royal lantern]

(and enjoyment/fun is subjective)

[balmy condor]

if you want to min max fatebound you avoid pressing cold blood at the start of deathmark, if you want to min max deathstalker you fok in single target

[balmy condor]

no

what kush clip

[stoic needle]

Fok st

[exotic hazel]

I think the response of 'no' to fatebound is fair because it has like no mechanics to actually pay attention to 😂

[subtle tundra]

How much do you bench

[drifting cloud]

https://www.twitch.tv/kushlul/clip/FancyShinyAlbatrossTF2John-ocSd47eEo5DjcMZ2?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time are you saying this isnt engaging

[subtle tundra]

What color is the grass

[exotic hazel]

What grass? When was it last watered?

[steep gust]

Are all 3 rogue specs close in stat priority? I usually like playing all 3 but I assume people need to maintain 3 different gear sets?

[subtle tundra]

The one on my nuts or something

Ha got you

[vestal wren]

the man knowns how to make the best of a bad situation 👍

[balmy condor]

true

[grim jay]

Why do you have grass on your nuts

[exotic hazel]

You'll know when you're older

[balmy condor]

I mean if you want to maintain 3 different gear sets for that last 1% min max for all 3 specs, that's always going to be there

[grim jay]

Im older than varas

[vestal wren]

what color do you want it to be?

[balmy condor]

it's definitely not required in any way though

like you get by just fine with 1 gear set and a weapon swap for outlaw

but that's been true forever

[exotic hazel]

Personally because mine are so big they drag on grass and pick loads up

[steep gust]

Ah ok. I just thought outlaw was more into vers than sin for example

[grim jay]

[balmy condor]

it is

it just doesn't matter lmao

[spice surge]

Yes but not to the extent that it matters a lot

[steep gust]

Got it. Thanks for the info

Catch myself overthinking about it

[drifting cloud]

ilvl still wins, youd need equal ilvl slots with the different stats to matter, -10 ilvl with better outlaw stats isnt going to win

[subtle tundra]

So i can touch grass without going out ain't that obvious

[grim jay]

According to the yellow gamers, we dont need to worry about outlaw without acro

[drifting cloud]

maybe on a ring/neck

[balmy condor]

true

[grim jay]

Based

[balmy condor]

outlaw dead spec without +3 range

I heard it from the tww-outlaw channel

[lavish hazel]

True

[exotic hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/south-park-gif-22353415

[lavish hazel]

Outlaw is dead

Don’t tell zac

[balmy condor]

yeah definitely dead

[royal lantern]

wow thats such a interesting opinion, you should put a blue cap in your discord name to make it even more valid

[grim jay]

Half dead, killing spree doesnt sim highest ive heard

[balmy condor]

I don't want to join a cult thank you

[exotic hazel]

You have cat ears on your discord pic. You've already joined the Furry Cult.

[grim jay]

https://tenor.com/view/wolf-kisses-lick-love-kiss-gif-15699359

[grim jay]

Looks familiar

[balmy condor]

damn, that's how they get you

[stoic needle]

It's in Brooklyn

[vestal wren]

grass is green, are you sure its safe to touch?
Green is usually associated to poison or ratiation

[exotic hazel]

@normal mist I'm 6ft2 and the last thing I ate was a toasted cheese sandwich (cheddar) with a glass of still water. Which build should I use for all keys?

[normal mist]

I'd say bone spike one

[exotic hazel]

Understood

[subtle tundra]

Poisons aren't doing a lot of dmg, I learned from assa

[exotic hazel]

Need to careful of that 'ratiation'

[grim jay]

Struck me as the water drinker build aswell

[balmy condor]

depends if you consider envenom to be a poison

[exotic hazel]

It's Nature. And I find anything related to nature or generally outdoors to be poisonous to me.

[subtle tundra]

So I'll die from my balls? 😭

[grim jay]

Undeniable

🤓

[grim jay]

The small things are usually the most deadly

Thats how nature does things

[balmy condor]

then poisons are doing a ton of damage

[grim jay]

Poison 📈

[balmy condor]

wahoo envenom spam

[royal lantern]

you cant hide your excitement

[balmy condor]

95% uptime season 1 of an expac

chaining and pooling is dead

yippie

very interesting spec

[normal mist]

This chat just became a off-assassination-topic extremely fast

[balmy condor]

we get to finish on 7cp sometimes

[grim jay]

But Whispyr

How is the scaling of sin in tww?

[balmy condor]

if it stays like this, pretty fucking awful lmao

fatebound in raids might be the most braindead shit I've ever seen tbh

you drop rapid injection

macro cold blood to mut/ambush (for like a 0.4% loss)

and then you just maintain rup/gar, full spam envenom

2x shiv kingsbane every minute, deathmark vanish every two minutes

and that's literally the entire spec

I guess you vanish on 5 coins in your opener to try and fish for capstone

[grim jay]

Fatebound easymode build confirmed even more so
(im shocked you actually answered on scaling)

[balmy condor]

but that kinda lines up pretty often

[wet briar]

pooling is dead?

[balmy condor]

where's all the button bloat complainers at now, spec has 4 rotational buttons + shiv/kb/dm/vanish

[marsh mortar]

Your enthusiasm is radiating through this thread

[subtle tundra]

FISHING, BEST SPEC

[balmy condor]

if you set up a cast sequence to dm shiv kb

[stoic needle]

Wait wtf pooling and chaining are dead now?

[balmy condor]

I'm entirely convinced this spec is playable with 1 hand

[stoic needle]

Man I'm so out of the loop

[balmy condor]

fatebound pretty much killed any chaining/pooling because it doesn't even take rapid injection

[spice surge]

Out of the loop for not talking to whispyr after 3 am last night

[balmy condor]

yeah this is a fairly new development

me and eleem cooked the last couple days

[pliant remnant]

I play every spec with 1 hand though

I only use mouse buttons for mobility buttons

[spice surge]

Its also decently close to being worthwhile to drop sanguine for fatebound

[subtle tundra]

I might like this spec, how fast is it

[spice surge]

I mean its still 50 apm or slower

[balmy condor]

fucking people complained about button bloat and you can play it with your toes now

unreal

[subtle tundra]

Uh remove kb

Pls

[spice surge]

Careful what you wish for

[subtle tundra]

I am very careful

It's my most wanted change

🤤

[brazen oasis]

why is pooling gone tho? i didnt quite catch the reason behind it

[balmy condor]

cause sanguine blades sucks

and rapid injection sucks too

[hearty reef]

im sorry whispyr

im so sorry

[subtle tundra]

We pooled cause of tier set

That's gone

[spice surge]

Rapid injection ultra sucks and sanguine sucks

[hearty reef]

i've been in many correction facilities

but i just like restealths that much

[balmy condor]

the whole reason why the chaining works on live atm is cause the tier is crazy strong

it gives a reason to drop under 50% energy

cause chaining is more effective

[kind forge]

damn almost wotlk spec

mut envenom

[balmy condor]

but rapid injection first off sucks so bad that it doesn't matter

and second off we're back to like 90%+ envenom uptime

with 0 effort

[brazen oasis]

so it doesnt make a diff to get to 99%?

[balmy condor]

I mean you can't quite get that high with season 1 gear

[brazen oasis]

hm fair

[balmy condor]

but from opener the first "chain" of envenoms is like almost 3 minutes long

[exotic hazel]

Alright Mr. 10 Toes no need to show off

[stoic needle]

What the hell

[exotic hazel]

(I have 9)

[balmy condor]

and if you hit execute and blindside kicks in

you get another increase in cp

[subtle tundra]

What 3 stacks of tea does to a mf

[balmy condor]

and you're basically 100% again

[stoic needle]

Rogue still doesn't have a dedicated dev huh

[static glacier]

no class does

[grim jay]

Dont start it

We dont talk about devs

We only talk about blizz

[stoic needle]

[balmy condor]

and so like the logical step would be "oh, too much envenom uptime, take vicious venoms + sanguine, spec gets slower, uptime goes down" except yeah not really though because that only takes you to like 85% and you lose a bunch of envenoms in the process and the upfront damage from envenom that you lose isn't worth it

so

fucking whatever I guess

[brazen oasis]

ah

okay

[subtle tundra]

What 7 max cp does to a spec

[static glacier]

cya coinflips, cya darkest night procs

[balmy condor]

yeah

[static glacier]

losing envenom casts through less energy is pricy

[brazen oasis]

that was excactly my thought

[balmy condor]

the hero talents want more finishers

and the spec itself is begging for less

[subtle tundra]

The spec got so bloated every single small thing has an impact on 5 different things

[static glacier]

it's cool that the spells do interact with eachother

[balmy condor]

varas you're so cooked man

[brazen oasis]

im glad how everything works so well together

[balmy condor]

why don't you go play ret or something and enjoy 35 talents of "your ability does 10% more damage"

[royal lantern]

just wait until midnight where we have 9 CP

[grim jay]

Ret doesnt have kb either

[subtle tundra]

I'm just saying words man I wanted to play beta and I didn't get it

[static glacier]

execution sentence mightaswell be kb

[royal lantern]

and DK gets literally kb as a hero tree

[grim jay]

But dk is cool.

Ret isnt

[subtle tundra]

My guild is playing beta tonight instead of live raid

[grim jay]

[royal lantern]

only frost

get it? cus ice

[subtle tundra]

I wanted to play m+

[balmy condor]

I wonder how much I could do with overrides

[static glacier]

feel sorry for you, no chance of buying the epic edition for beta access?

[subtle tundra]

I'm not doing that cause I disagree with it

I have 7 mil gold

[regal bluff]

Do we have a TLDR for the pre-patch changes? I quit for a month have no idea whats going on

[static glacier]

I respect a man who sticks by his principles

[exotic hazel]

That's a lot of WoWTokens you've purchased

[balmy condor]

make envenom like 4 seconds flat regardless of cp or something and then make rapid injection 30% idfk

but then low cp envenoms

[royal lantern]

saying it and actually sticking with it is chad af mate

[balmy condor]

doomed

[subtle tundra]

A bit of boosting here and there

[grim jay]

https://tenor.com/view/elsa-frozen-gif-1116853118508427635

[balmy condor]

guides are all updated

[grim jay]

Yeah dont think that will be great

[exotic hazel]

You just went from 'guy who stands by his morals' to 'guy who boosts' 😦

[static glacier]

are they verified by echo and liquid tho

[balmy condor]

I mean I'm not really sure what the solution is

[subtle tundra]

I don't see how that has any relevance

[balmy condor]

just buffing sanguine/rapid injection doesn't work

cause we're back to envenom uptime being just way too high

it's just really rough

[subtle tundra]

Also all I did was show up to raid, we boosted mythic as a guild

[regal bluff]

Wait, we dont have Subterfuge anymore?

[potent raven]

no..

[static glacier]

we do, it's just fake af for sin

[balmy condor]

this is like a "need to get a couple reworked talents and change how basic spells function to fit that" sort of problem

not a number issue

[static glacier]

our subterfuge effects are baked in

[regal bluff]

ohhhh

im reading the pre-patch section here

[static glacier]

read shrouded suff and imp garotte

[subtle tundra]

What if instead of doing mostly poison dmg, our bleeds were bussin

[grim jay]

Making rapid injection a stacking buff and have a separate duration after which all the stacks drop
hides behind similar talents

[static glacier]

NO

im not willing for them to create more friction

[balmy condor]

what friction does the spec have

out of curiosity

[exotic hazel]

How about they move Assa towards a more piratey themed Rogue with pistols and stuff, and bump up the APM to the point you feel dizzy playing it

[static glacier]

sin? not much but im not in the mood for them to add any]

[balmy condor]

cause I'm looking at fatebound atm

and there is actually 0 friction

[grim jay]

Id shoot you out of a cannon for that

[static glacier]

im too scared to ever suggest friction-increases bc of what deathstalker was on release

[balmy condor]

pool, don't pool, play sang or don't, be above 50% or don't, finish on 5, keep envenom up or don't (not like you have a choice)

[static glacier]

we should never let them think we're okay with friction while other classes get a free pass

otherwise we'll be left playing 6 minigames

[balmy condor]

that's such an awful take

[exotic hazel]

A bit of friction can make it feel better

[royal lantern]

we still talk about wow, right?

[static glacier]

might be, but I'd rather a shit take rather than blizzard designing mental health destroying gameplay

[exotic hazel]

Who was talking about WoW?

[rotund oak]

u cant increase sin's apm and still have mutilate as a main builder

[balmy condor]

you're willingly sacrificing the fun of a spec just because there are specs that don't have depth

that's burnt

[static glacier]

thing is how can they add depth to sin? more energy constraints? sure it creates actual decisions

[exotic hazel]

I don't have a metric big enough to show by how much you missed the joke

[static glacier]

but if the spec is like 30 apm a lot of people will find it way too slow

[balmy condor]

you add depth by making envenom not 100% uptime

[rotund oak]

i dont play well with jokes but plz quantify

[balmy condor]

you dont' even need to make the spec slower

[static glacier]

I liked s3 tier set rewarding chaining and making it so good sin rogues would have better tier set dmg

[exotic hazel]

Outlaw is that spec. See now you made it unfunny because I had to explain it.

[balmy condor]

that's friction though

[static glacier]

the problem with envenom is the rest of the spec got designed based around it always being up

[rotund oak]

.. no way i didnt get that right?

so much stuff to miss

[static glacier]

note my point isn't all friction is bad, it's that I don't want to communicate that friction is okay lest blizzard leave us with something omegacringe for ages

[subtle tundra]

I love that we are at almost full envenom uptime and twist the knife is still a talent choice

[exotic hazel]

It was quite technical I understand

And forgive

[balmy condor]

okay man whatever

you live your life

[potent raven]

you can increase apm but you will run out of energy

[rotund oak]

ty for ur compassion

[exotic hazel]

Debating with a SnD enjoyer

What are you expecting

[static glacier]

even if they make env 4s and chaining worthwhile, it will jsut result in chaining then waiting like 6-8s to pool energy to start another chain, it's not bad but it ain't fun either. they can do better

[balmy condor]

ofc they can

but you won't let them

cause you're bitching about even the mere possibility that they add something

[exotic hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-guy-relaxing-popcorm-popcorn-gif-26404903

[static glacier]

picture they never changed deathstalker

I wonder how you'd be feeling

[balmy condor]

what kind of an argument is that

[static glacier]

atm my faith in blizz is tentative at best

that they won't just give us a half baked mess like OL if we go all out expecting changes

[subtle tundra]

My faith is that bleeds become real

[balmy condor]

"they rushed out something that needed to get fixed because it didn't work out, therefore I'm never telling them to make something interesting again"

brother

are you good

[exotic hazel]

@static glacier I don't think you're winning bro

[static glacier]

idk about never

i said atm whispyr

cmon

[balmy condor]

well by your logic, you're saying no friction

if they don't add friction

they never prove that they can add something you'd enjoy

so your trust never goes back up

[subtle tundra]

Man I enjoyed pressing rupture and garrote

[static glacier]

alright, im convinced

you make a fine argument

[exotic hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[static glacier]

discussions aren't about "winning" grow up

[royal lantern]

holy shit, thats so giga based

[exotic hazel]

I'm sorry, I'm older now than I was when I said that

[static glacier]

i've been in this channel for ages and discussed shit with whispyr many times

[exotic hazel]

I've grown up

[balmy condor]

deathstalker sucked ass

but its fine now

there's still edge cases that blow chunks

for sure

but like it's aight

[static glacier]

they've proven they can do great work

[balmy condor]

if they can fix something shit, they can add something not shit

[static glacier]

and for the most part our s3 aoe redesign is great

so yeah I should be open to them cooking more

[subtle tundra]

https://tenor.com/view/reverse-spit-gif-21852096

[static glacier]

since our aoe now does have notably more friction than most classes but it's fun

[rotund oak]

Sims when my man (relative question)

[static glacier]

id rather what we have now to what was before it

[balmy condor]

varas don't you have anywhere else to be

[drifting cloud]

no (he doesnt have beta)

[subtle tundra]

I'm at the gym I'm filling my breaks with this

Ty

I have 1 more tricep exercise left

[balmy condor]

I can't imagine what kind of an animal varas would be if he had beta

[spice spire]

That was the most threatening question I’ve ever seen asked

[balmy condor]

he already only shows up to bitch about kingsbane and add nothing of value

[spice spire]

Man can’t get beta because he’s alpha as fuck

[exotic hazel]

I'm calling 911 because that was brutal

[drifting cloud]

noyzey youre trying to hard, you dont have to react/reply to every msg

this is just daily chat in this channel

[exotic hazel]

I'm just having fun while I wait for the incredibly long queue time 😄

[drifting cloud]

alot of us have been in here for 5years +

[spice spire]

Blud is yapping

[balmy condor]

everyones yapping

thats what happens here

[static glacier]

litterally

[exotic hazel]

Yapping in a public discord is bad 😦

[balmy condor]

like our good friend yappucino

he shows up to yap about echo and kush

[spice spire]

I’ve only been here 8 days and I have over 140k messages

[drifting cloud]

that guy is okay tbh, his heart is in the right place

just goes overboard

[kind forge]

[exotic hazel]

I've been and gone repeatedly over the last 2ish years

[spice spire]

Happens big dog

[exotic hazel]

Tend not to hover when I'm not playing the spec/class

[balmy condor]

I'm just afraid he's going to deepthroat so hard he chokes ya know I'm watching out for bros health

[spice spire]

Honestly I was just derailing a tense bit

[drifting cloud]

I heard you declined to pin their guides

[exotic hazel]

Personally never see anything on discord as tense

Words on a screen

[balmy condor]

I'm not the only person in this discord making decisions ya know

[kind forge]

damn i thought you were yapping but your first is really from 2022

[willow rapids]

lies, you have mind control poison

[exotic hazel]

I chat shit, I don't lie 😂

[drifting cloud]

ok tbh I wasnt calling you out, I did mean it as shadows/sbs or whatever

[balmy condor]

but yes

[drifting cloud]

not sure who gets a vote

[static glacier]

he still didn't deny it

guilty

[balmy condor]

as a collective we did decline

[kind forge]

you proved

[static glacier]

give it two more years, we will have ai replace you. robowhispyr > whispyr

[drifting cloud]

ai cant beat our 30 tabs of sims yapp yt videos bis whispyr

whos going to fix dungeonslice then

[subtle tundra]

When's next video whispar

[balmy condor]

ai could never be lacking conciseness as much as me

I'm #1 in the world at dragging things out

[exotic hazel]

Also free AI generally has a question limit per day

I max Whispyr out regularly

[static glacier]

you highly underestimate the grade of yap ai produce when asked explicitly to be as verbose as possible

trust me, I work with it

[vestal wren]

question limit reached, please buy more tokens for further questions

[balmy condor]

I'd win

[static glacier]

[drifting cloud]

time to put all whispyrs guides threw that faulty ai text detector

[static glacier]

issue with LLMs atm is that they act on instructions in a binary way. they can't mix being awkward, yapping, giving actuall good info and dragging things out while still appearing a relatable human

[drifting cloud]

something about destructive arrays of spells and delving into everything on every class page

oh no wait, thats maxroll

[subtle tundra]

Guys when df classic comes out what patch talents do we play with

[royal lantern]

(and, you know, the entire stealing stuff part)

[drifting cloud]

its going to be post rework sorry

[subtle tundra]

Fuck shit ass

[static glacier]

whispyr isn't a well known thief, don't expose it

[subtle tundra]

My favorite df assa m+ was 45s exsang build

And nothing else comes close

[static glacier]

lowkey, aoe exsang would be so lit if we had a reasonable way to reapp aoe dots

[rotund oak]

cut to the chase but for bleeds

exsang==>envenom==>extend

imagine snapshotting that

[static glacier]

would be ass to play around

but if poison bomb stored stacking dmg from a current env chain

then detonated at the end

would be v satisfying

[rotund oak]

ppl got diff tastes for whats ass or not

speculating only for the dmg aspect

[static glacier]

I can't imagine people would enjoy judging if the mobs would die and cancelling env buff to detonate the bomb

[rotund oak]

ye the SD of those dots

damn

[static glacier]

maybe they can in a future redesign flesh out bleed and poison more

[rotund oak]

[static glacier]

a bit like enh has distinct builds n playstyles

[rotund oak]

thats some good cooking

[royal lantern]

why would we need that

like

if bleeds could hit hard in aoe

vanish would just be the "aoe cd" then with IC for smth like that

[static glacier]

2min is for me way too long a cd

for it to be considered reasonable

[royal lantern]

2min is a normal CD timer...?

[static glacier]

im assuming aoe exsang is more frequent