assassination

[deft flicker]

Stuff like that is better discussed with tanks as they’re usually in charge of enemy positioning (and sometimes they want the slow to be there while in other cases the slow is more of a nuisance)

[last oasis]

is there a way to look at the actual builds for the m+ dungeon slice?

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[buoyant moat]

Thinking about getting back into Sin again but I absolutely hate ER how necessary is the ability or is the Dps loss actually make it mandatory?

[light warren]

is this too much mastery?

[balmy condor]

depends on how much you think is mandatory

[balmy condor]

none of these numbers actually mean anything, you just keep simming and if it says to for example swap a ring, or it wants to re-gem for something

and then you make the decision if that +200 dps is worth all that effort

[buoyant moat]

I would consider anything more than 2% dps differential as mandatory

[light warren]

ah ok

[balmy condor]

gonna get pretty hairy I would think

I think you might be able to swing it in single target by ripping the points out and putting them into improved ambush

but frankly if you hate ER that much you're probably gonna end up not liking sin regardless of what you do, cause it ain't going anywhere

the threat of not being able to enjoy my gameplay because of 1 talent

seems pretty prohibitive to your enjoyment

[deft flicker]

KiR moment

[balmy condor]

wild that one talent can make people hate a whole spec

I hate exsang but like

the specs fine

I'll play exsang

idk

KiR is some weird shit to me

people just straight up refusing to play outlaw over it

[buoyant moat]

It's just so out of place for rogue it feels pigeon holed on

[balmy condor]

just doesn't make sense to me

[buoyant moat]

I mean I've played sin from sunwell-nathria

And even at a base rpg level that ability just feels off never-mind gameplay

[balmy condor]

I'd argue ER is the most in-place talent for rogues, it's the only thing that interacts with combo points for your own gameplay. Feels difficult to make something more applicable to rogues than combo point gameplay

[buoyant moat]

ER is like putting a spoiler on a minivan sure it belongs on a car doesn't mean a minivan should have one

That's just how I look at

[deft flicker]

I get if it’s a new core thing or if it’s too powerful to not take it (like SKB is for Fire), but KiR is nowhere near as invasive

Neither is Exsang, I’d assume (at least in its current state)

[balmy condor]

exsang ain't even worth taking

[quiet oar]

ER is fine for sin and law

Imagine sub

With random cp generation

Thats hell

[quiet oar]

Kir feels dumb

Because it feels you have to fish for good buffs

But i reality it doesnt matter

[deft flicker]

Yeah, but that’s due to a bug

[vapid sierra]

You don’t

[balmy condor]

and it'll stay that way until it dies

[vapid sierra]

You just get them

[balmy condor]

[buoyant moat]

Idk me personally I'd rather not have my Rouge use a kyrian arcane ability from bastion when everything else is physical/nature based just from an RPG perspective alone. Sure the ability probably plays fine but it doesn't feel right.

[vapid sierra]

Especially during dance, you just end up with like everything if not ur prolly only missing one buff

[quiet oar]

If you read the sentence after that

[vapid sierra]

Oopsies

I still don’t feel like I’m fishing for good buffs since I know they’ll come

But I guess that’s subjective

[quiet oar]

Probably it will be Ex-sanguine

And after a year itll call you and Tell you that it misses you

What Do you Do whispyr

[light warren]

For Aoe do i spam crimson or envenom

[gaunt moat]

Yes

[clever sapphire]

If they are stacked up and you have 4p up, poison bomb gonna be better

If you dont have 4p and mobs are stacked up, doesnt matter

Fish for poisonbomb or spam CT

[balmy condor]

I don't pick up

[quiet oar]

Oooof

Ice cold

[light warren]

if poison bomb is down is it still good to keep getting more

[balmy condor]

ye

it only lasts like 2 seconds

[quiet oar]

[balmy condor]

What’s suspicious about that

It’s exactly 2 seconds

[quiet oar]

Im just 12

atm you know

im tired

With that said

Would Poison bomb make a good finisher?

[balmy condor]

Probably not

What’s the difference between poison bomb being a finish and CT

[quiet oar]

If you increase radius and give it "if you stand in it your Nature dmg is increased"?

[balmy condor]

You just invented arterial precision

[quiet oar]

its already in there?

[balmy condor]

It’s aoe shiv

[quiet oar]

Ah yeah ok

[balmy condor]

You push button aoe nature damage increase

[clever sapphire]

That just sounds like rune of power for mages. But even worse since we are meele

Even mages got that shit removed

[quiet oar]

Yeah true

I just want assa to be good again in M+

[balmy condor]

You do that through bleeds not poisons

It’s pretty difficult to make poisons the aoe damage source

In legion poison bomb was just 40% of your damage and that’s obviously not it

[quiet oar]

But it was fun

At the time

[balmy condor]

No it wasn’t

It was miserable

[quiet oar]

Yeah it was gamble

[balmy condor]

You did either giga dam or you were useless

And nothing you did mattered

[quiet oar]

True

Was Poison bomb in legion also only envenom

Why do i have in mind that rupture triggerd it too in the past

[balmy condor]

because rupture triggered it too until dragonflight

[cobalt hemlock]

with how dogwater assa is in m+ would it be too broken if they brought it back?

[balmy condor]

would be really janky with carnage

and carnage would just be warping the gameplay too much

too much power in one ability

[light warren]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ya8qhrXtPAVnZK64/ hey guys looking for feedback on rotation and stuff

im only 406 ilvl right now but feeling like maybe im not up to it

[balmy condor]

should basically always be gar er rup

there's no reason to ever mut here

you want the 7cp rup for carnage since it spreads

[light warren]

sorry idk shortform

[balmy condor]

which is why we do this

[light warren]

whats er

[balmy condor]

echoing reprimand

[light warren]

oh ok

[balmy condor]

carnage and er are both 45 seconds

so it's very uncommon that you would ever carnage a non-animacharged rupture

exception being if you used er towards the end of a boss fight and there's very little travel to the next pack so it's not up yet

[light warren]

so do i force the er rupture

like spend combo until rupure can be cp7

[balmy condor]

if you do the opener it'll land like that every time

[balmy condor]

you use a finisher before er here

so casting er always puts you on an animacharge

[light warren]

ooh

[balmy condor]

the rest kinda looks okay at a glance

it's hard to tell when you open a dungeon and see shit like this

cause like

that's just "did you do an opener"

[light warren]

I dont think ive been doing openers

[balmy condor]

or like trying to find any useful info from pulls that are this short

is just hell

[light warren]

yea its low key

[balmy condor]

every pull in there is basically just "did you carnage from stealth on pull, and then maintain CT? great"

[light warren]

i know i should wait till higher but i dont want to reinforce a bad habit

[balmy condor]

cause it's over before any real decision has to be made

[light warren]

yea i try to stealth carnage and then garrote

[balmy condor]

yeh good enough

[light warren]

is using vanish for reapply garrote good?

[balmy condor]

yep

that's the only reason you would vanish as well

[light warren]

ah ok

on omni cd it says its a defense spell lol so yea

[balmy condor]

it's a lot more defensive in pvp

cause you drop combat

[deft flicker]

It’s more of a cheese tool than a defensive tbh

[light warren]

is this part tea or shiv? like i decide what i need or is it both?

[balmy condor]

you cast the tea with shiv

tea isn't on the gcd

[light warren]

okay yep

[light warren]

sorry how does this part work? i assume spam fan then apply crimson then use shiv then spam fan then envenom while shiv is up?

[balmy condor]

It’s just envenom with shiv while you’re in Deathmark during your opener, the buff is good, you consume amp poison stacks

After that envenom you can do whatever you want

[light warren]

oh so u use envenom with one stack?

[balmy condor]

You’d want to be on an animacharge or 5+ cp like a normal finisher

[light warren]

yea so i use fan after shiv?

[quiet oar]

Shive will give you more cps

because Aoe Shiv

right?

[balmy condor]

No

[balmy condor]

if it doesn’t hit an animacharge

Yes

[quiet oar]

Ahh you dont play AoE shiv in Aoe?

[balmy condor]

It’s too big of a single target loss

[quiet oar]

I see

But would grant more than one Cp?

Probably for every target it hits

?

[balmy condor]

Would work like fok does

[quiet oar]

Oof

[balmy condor]

1 cp base, and then seal fate on every target

[quiet oar]

Why though

Why is assa still like this?

[balmy condor]

Because it’s 1 cast with 1 hit that cleaves

[quiet oar]

Too much Funnel when you get CPs like subs shuriken storm?

[light warren]

seems like i need shiv then two fans before i can envenom

[balmy condor]

Depends on which animacharge you consumed with rupture and how your crits end up

[balmy condor]

I mean maybe but why does it have to be like storm

Why can’t it be it’s own thing

[quiet oar]

fair

[royal lantern]

i rather have FoK interact with dots/bleeds in some form to generate CP instead of "lol shuriken storm"

[quiet oar]

When i played assa in M+ it was a bit annoying to do multiple FoKs to finish

I mean with ER its probably a non issue

tbf

[light warren]

is there a single target opener with m+ build

[balmy condor]

Same as the regular single target openers

Just skip the bone spike or the sepsis

So this but no spike

[light warren]

yea ok

and then garrote i just realized i refresh it not at zero but at 5 seconds

[clever sapphire]

No spike, me sadge

[light warren]

I like sepsis

wish it was in mythic build

[balmy condor]

I mean feel free to take it instead of shrouded

The world is your oyster

[quiet oar]

What

[clever sapphire]

Ye but i like shrouded too

Thats the problem

Im just gonna not play CT

[balmy condor]

As long as you don’t refresh an empowered garrote with a normal one

[balmy condor]

I understand your name now

[quiet oar]

He cooks weird shit all the time

[light warren]

yea i use vanish at 5 seconds to refresh but normal one i wait till last second to get most out of it

[quiet oar]

Thats why i called him that

[balmy condor]

Perfect

[light warren]

They should switch sepsis to where exsanguinate is

[balmy condor]

Dunno bout that one

[clever sapphire]

Yes sirrr

[quiet oar]

I mean wait for 10.2?

[light warren]

yea 10.2

[quiet oar]

Maybe they come up with some good things

[light warren]

This is one of my favorite specs in the game tho i hope it doesnt change tooo much

[quiet oar]

Or they do the @clever sapphire way

[clever sapphire]

I played the ST build in the first week with M+ buddies in dungeons because they sucked at ST and aoe died too fast

[light warren]

Tbh i was thinking bout doing the same. just killing prio targets

[balmy condor]

Usually putting active abilities that far up into the tree either makes it required (like how Deathmark/CT are), or if they’re not supposed to be required they have to be tuned to be a competitive choice and not crazy op (exsang)

If sepsis goes that far up

It would have to be nerfed into the ground

Like exsang was

[light warren]

or just let assassin not be ass ass

[clever sapphire]

I mean its not that bad, you play the ST build bit take spike instead of sepsis

Now you have a 2 target cleave every pull

And pray for bomb procs

But meh

[royal lantern]

"2target cleave"

yeha sure

[light warren]

ima just hit one thing till it dead

[royal lantern]

spike alone willl carry that 2 target

[light warren]

then hit another thing

[balmy condor]

2 target cleave without CT

Just sounds like not 2 target cleave

[quiet oar]

Look at his name

explains everything

[clever sapphire]

Its the cursed way of doing shit xD

[balmy condor]

Deathly allergic to a button that does easily 10-15% of your damage in cleave

[clever sapphire]

What if i just dont take IC and get bonespike instead

[light warren]

omg that opener is fucking awesome for st

[quiet oar]

Cursedloc

[royal lantern]

we play assassination, we are allergic to aoe by default

[quiet oar]

would be so cursed

He would put Blade Flurry in Class tree

Thats how fucked up he is

[clever sapphire]

Nah

Fuck that shit

I have my limits

[royal lantern]

ah yes, the shadow priest approach

[light warren]

that opener boosted dmg up to like 70k

[royal lantern]

"we dont know how to make shadow do good st and good aoe at the same time? just give it blade flurry lmao"

[clever sapphire]

I dont like IC either, it makes aoe boring

[quiet oar]

You dont ahve to be shy

[quiet oar]

I mean, they are doing great ya know

[clever sapphire]

I put bonespike and deathspike in the class tree instead of ER

[royal lantern]

wow, that means its good desing right

[deft flicker]

“Oh no flurry is too much, cut it to like 15%”

[royal lantern]

thats like saying "FoK deals 2000% more dmg now" and then people say "assa does great what do you mean????"

[royal lantern]

and then buff the single target abilitys at the same time, that feed into their aoe

[clever sapphire]

So much more dmg, and you still would need to cast it 3 times before you can get a finisher

[deft flicker]

ST buff disguised as AoE nerf

[royal lantern]

when its ST was allready high

[deft flicker]

That spec is on some eldritch shit

[royal lantern]

well, yeha????

[deft flicker]

Just rename it into “Madness”

[light warren]

if I have everything up like my dots on boss is it just mutilate + envenom spam? and just use shiv + er on cd

[deft flicker]

Fuckers aren’t even using shadow

[clever sapphire]

Aoe build in M+?

Yep

[light warren]

yea aoe buil;d

[clever sapphire]

There isnt much else to do there, its pretty simple

[light warren]

Yea okay just wondering. opener is like 70k and then i drop down to 35k

[clever sapphire]

For like halls frog boss you get an extra IC cast or something when adds spawn

Well we are a cooldown based class, so dropping dmg after your cooldowns end is normal

[light warren]

do i save vanish for the ic?

[clever sapphire]

On bossfights? Nah its probably not worth it

Just use it with dm

[light warren]

i dont know what using it with deathmark does

i have just been using it to reapply improved garrote

[clever sapphire]

You refresh garrote to its empowered version

And the most value is with deathmark

Since both are 2 min cds

Outside of boss fights you can vanish IC when the tank is chainpulling and you cant restealth

[light warren]

i use vanish garrote before or after deathmark?

[clever sapphire]

Ye thats what you do, but in the best case scenario you use it with dm and not randomly mid fight

[clever sapphire]

Preferably during it, but since your dmg is so low im gonna assume you are on low keys so bosses dont really live for 2 minutes

So you do the normal opener

[deft flicker]

You want to have improved garrote for the entire deathmark duration. Sometimes you can do that with Sepsis, sometimes you need vanish for that

[clever sapphire]

And like in the opener whispyr sent, you just press vanish garrote when its about to expire

[light warren]

so how does using vanish and deathmark line up after the opener?

[clever sapphire]

Well i probably play it badly or dunno, but i press dm on cooldown and vanish too

So its like a few seconds into your dm when you have vanish up

[balmy condor]

Sometimes when you say things, I wish you didn’t

[clever sapphire]

XD

[light warren]

maybe im slow but it seems like vanish will take 10 seconds to come back up

i assume i just wait 10 secodns before i use dm

[balmy condor]

So just hold dm a bit

[light warren]

okay yea

[clever sapphire]

Sometimes im scared to give tipps to new assa rogues because im never sure whats the normal way and whats my cursed way

[light warren]

man this class reminds me of ESo and i love it

[balmy condor]

The fact that you have to stop and think “am I playing incorrectly” when answering questions in here is crazy

It’s 95% just linking faq/wowhead

And copy pasting

[clever sapphire]

Well its mostly when someone asks about a build or holding cooldowns on bosses

Since i dont raid so i only know heroic ways

So i ignore mythic questions

[balmy condor]

Yeh that’s the way

[clever sapphire]

And well you know my builds, so my answer most of the time is

[balmy condor]

Would much rather people just don’t answer if they don’t know

[clever sapphire]

Ye i dont do that, if i dont know i dont answer 🤷‍♂️

[balmy condor]

Ye

Plenty of people do

And it’s a headache

[clever sapphire]

Ah, i may be cursed, but im not a dumbo

[balmy condor]

Just doubles the work cause “oh but X said”

[clever sapphire]

Not cursing anyone else

[balmy condor]

And then I gotta not only answer the question but also refute the bad answer

[spice surge]

Even better when the reasoning is slightly complicated and you have to write an entire novel to explain it

[clever sapphire]

I always think to myself "always trust the words of the mighty purple assa wizard over anyone else"

[balmy condor]

Idk if I’d go that far

I’m pretty fucking stupid

But don’t know don’t answer is a pretty good baseline stance to take

[clever sapphire]

Havent seen a time where you were wrong in a discussion in here yet (maybe cause im asleep at those times dunno)

[spice surge]

Hes so smart he knows hes stupid

[balmy condor]

That’s cause we ban the infidels

But nah a lot of the stuff is either like “okay well here’s a sim”

Or it’s just a straight opinion

Which is like okay sure I guess

Should you funnel the trees in brackenhide?

Dunno? Maybe

If you want to

But if you don’t that’s fine too

[clever sapphire]

Ah yes the opinion people. You could argue with all your might, they will answer with "but ye i think my opinion is correct in this 1 specific scenario"

[balmy condor]

Yeh and they might as well be

The more complicated the situation the more difficult it is to know what to do

At the end of the day like especially with m+ where it’s not gigafucking 1 target for 5-10 minutes straight

There’s just player decisions that need to be made

And some of them are simple like yeah should probably 100% uptime ct

And some are like if I have 4 targets and 3 of them are dying 15 seconds earlier than the 4th and I can’t chain and there’s a boss coming up but idk if its going to take 2 minutes, do I Deathmark the guy?

And that’s like man I don’t fucking know

Make a choice

And if you don’t time the key then skill issue I guess idk

I can very easily teach rules and concepts

But teaching moment to moment thought processing

Is real fucking hard

How do you teach someone to think

And can someone teach me

My head is so empty

[light warren]

Tanks fault

[subtle tundra]

uhh i can coach you?

[balmy condor]

[deft flicker]

You split the final answer into little pieces and spoon them with the pieces till it clicks

Either they never bother you again or they start doing the thinkies at least to some extent

And then you start giving less and less because you know they know how to connect the dots

||Idk if I would be a good teacher but sometimes I was told I would but also idk||

And eventually you turn into a rubber duck

Tbh the split-second decisions sometimes just stunlock me (especially if the answer is “dude it doesn’t fucking matter just pick one”)

And I stare at the ice cream fridge in local supermarket for 25 minutes because inner raidbots has no clue which ice cream is the optimal pick

Fuck I hate myself sometimes

[balmy condor]

Yeah now do this without ever talking to the person, and making sure the guide is generalized enough to apply for 100k+ people of varying skill, age, knowledge, experience, English ability

If it’s a coaching session aight cool sure, works fine

But scaling it just doesn’t work

[deft flicker]

Yes

You don’t teach people to think in big batches

Thinking can’t be generalized

[rotund oak]

u teach the method not the ability

also

[rotund oak]

❤️

[deft flicker]

Yeah, but still the broader your audience is - the less likely each one of them is to understand what you’re trying to tell

[grim jay]

coach me daddy

I specifically downloaded hekili for a session

[balmy condor]

blood pressure rising very quickly

[keen spruce]

[rotund oak]

very true because even if u try to teach correctly each and everyone u need more time than u got

u cant save everyone,u jsut try 😉

[gusty mirage]

[clever sapphire]

Im gonna make my own cast order macros before using that

[keen spruce]

[pulsar dirge]

doing some keys and dropping iron wire for improved poisons and fatal concotion, grieffy?

[clever sapphire]

IW is group utility, because aoe silence

Its just usually good for getting the group together

But i was the one who played with MA but no IW

If you ask me, personally i really saw how long it took for the group to get together without IW

[pulsar dirge]

but my group doesnt appreciate the utility anyway

only checking the meters

[ebon notch]

99.9% of groups play without iron wire

Don't over value it's weak utility

Doing more damage is utility in itself

[keen spruce]

i mean if your group is letting you play assas in keys then I dunno what their metric for "griefing" is

[deft flicker]

If you play with ppal/veng/any other character with infinite stops - you’ll be fine

[keen spruce]

@agile osprey have you done the mega dungon this week

also has anyone else not done the mega dungeon and has the dagger

on NA

that would like to donate to the "funnel shmeeps" fund

[balmy condor]

With this logic might as well not take any utility on any class

[gusty mirage]

this is the most asinine take ever

[balmy condor]

Cause 99.9% groups play without it

[gusty mirage]

"Plenty of people play w/o it because no one takes an assassination rogue, so don't overvalue it"

????

[balmy condor]

99.9% of groups play without windfury, don’t overvalue

[gusty mirage]

if you're playing assassination in keys you're already griefing, so you're gonna double grief by not taking the only useful thing you bring?

[balmy condor]

[gusty mirage]

this isn't multiplication bro

two negatives don't make a positive

[deft flicker]

Nope selects Arterial Precision

[gusty mirage]

@balmy condor ryler was right, the higher your IO goes the lower your IQ goes

[spice surge]

Aoe enrage dispell

[void mesa]

I think I can agree with that statement oxi

IO has been going up, IQ definitely dropping with every pug

[balmy condor]

It’s a brutal inverse relationship

[grim jay]

wdym, its insane, ask whispyr

[deft flicker]

The higher the balloon floats - the lower the rope drops

Else it flies away

[clever sapphire]

Almost played it for real, until i realized how meaningless raging is

[deft flicker]

Raging used to be scary

[balmy condor]

Yeh ap was good when raging mattered

[deft flicker]

Then it got demoted to “mildly annoyed”

[clever sapphire]

Im already cursed, dont need to double dip it

[balmy condor]

And then it got wrecked

[clever sapphire]

Tbf it would still be annoying, if we had nokhud with those 20 casts in a 6 enemy pull

[gusty mirage]

let fly

[deft flicker]

Let fly what

[gusty mirage]

wdym let fly what

[deft flicker]

I… I’m not sure I foololw

[gusty mirage]

nokhud was mention

[deft flicker]

Ah

Aight

[gusty mirage]

how could you forget the first 2 months of DF

where they just spammed it

over and over and over and over again

[deft flicker]

No idea

My brainicle is a weird place

[keen spruce]

LET FWY

[clever sapphire]

You just triggered my thundering ptsd, i thought i got past it already

[keen spruce]

RAWWY THE CWAN

https://tenor.com/view/horn-gondor-lotr-lord-of-the-rings-gif-5363378

[gusty mirage]

I have that soundboard clip too

dw

[keen spruce]

hey oxi

do u have a time strike dagger and/or are you locked to the mega dungeon?

[clever sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-scared-cradling-gif-19322532

[keen spruce]

[gusty mirage]

to answer your questions:
no, and yes

but I'm not locked on my pally, rat warlock, or rat mage

also I'm not doing that piece of shit dungeon more than once a week

[ebon notch]

i mean

[gusty mirage]

you mean what

[ebon notch]

if you can take more damage instead

id take that

[gusty mirage]

you legit just told someone playing assassination

[ebon notch]

over iron wire

[gusty mirage]

to "take more damage" over iron wire

[ebon notch]

ye

i would 100p

[gusty mirage]

and you don't see how fucking stupid of a suggestion that was

[ebon notch]

especially in high keys

but thats not relevant

[keen spruce]

bruther if you take an assas rogue in high keys it's already bricked

[ebon notch]

i mean

idk

[gusty mirage]

lets hear it

go ahead

I would love to hear the mental gymnastics

[ebon notch]

i already said it bro

theres no mental gymnastics

there comes a point where doing more damage is better than having more cc

thats it

[keen spruce]

that is the most wrong thing

[ebon notch]

you can cc a pack for 30 seconds

[keen spruce]

i've seen in 84 years

[ebon notch]

but if it doesnt die after that

then thats great you brought 30s of cc

[gusty mirage]

damn dog you old af

[ebon notch]

but you're still fighting the same pack

[gusty mirage]

they're an assassination rogue bro

[ebon notch]

i get

theyre playing

assa

but as a concept this still applies

[keen spruce]

the entire premise

[gusty mirage]

you think 0.2% for imp poisons is gonna be more useful than iron wire?

[keen spruce]

of damage being more important than stops

is insanely wrong

[gusty mirage]

because you're 100% taking IC in M+

there's no ifs ands or buts

[ebon notch]

IW

not IC right

[gusty mirage]

okay

you think 0.2% more damage

by taking imp poisons

is more useful

than a 6s silence and free iron bark on 8 targets?

[keen spruce]

even in like a 25

one cast going off on fort

is like 1 deadge

[gusty mirage]

let's not even focus on using it to stop casts

it helps gather mobs

cause no casting

so mr. flamepatch can do 1.2 million dps

while you jerk off in the corner doing 250k dps

[ebon notch]

people are grouping mobs without it

it is not necessary

[gusty mirage]

which could be 255k dps if you took improved poisons

[ebon notch]

thats my point

and the pulls you're doing

in several dungeons you are over the target cap

for IC

[gusty mirage]

lol

[ebon notch]

and you just may not silence a useful mob

sure you get the DR

[keen spruce]

it's also a 15% dr on 8 targets for 8 secons

[ebon notch]

which is great

[gusty mirage]

so you think an extra 0.2% dps > the DR and the silence

got it

[ebon notch]

i mean yeah

[gusty mirage]

pushing keys has actually rotted your brain

[ebon notch]

people play without aoe silence

people play without DR

[gusty mirage]

okay

daps

the people playing without those

[keen spruce]

okay lets say you're doing like what

[gusty mirage]

have chances to do INFINITELY MORE DAMAGE

[keen spruce]

300k dps

in your burst

[gusty mirage]

than assassination could dream of

[keen spruce]

on a big pull

[gusty mirage]

so your contrarian "well they're already playing without it"

is irrelevant when the person in question is playing fucking assassination bro

idk why that's hard for you to understand

[keen spruce]

so by taking imp poisons

you're gonna be doin about 600-1000 more dps

[gusty mirage]

you literally bring nothing but utility to the key as assassination

and you're telling them to spec out of their utility

lmfao

for fucking imp poisons bro

[keen spruce]

like you're not even going to contribute enough additional damage to killem fast enough to skip a cast

[sweet dawn]

Call me dumb but I didn't think that 5/10% poison app chance was 600-100 dps, that's wild

[ebon notch]

all you're saying is that im wrong, not because im wrong but because the spec is so bad that what i said doesnt apply

[keen spruce]

i mean idk i did extreme napkin math

[ebon notch]

which i mean

i guess you're technically correct

but

[keen spruce]

no you're fundamentally wrong

about the premise

[gusty mirage]

there is no technically correct

[keen spruce]

that more damage is more important than more cc

or dr

[ebon notch]

i didnt say that though

[keen spruce]

you absolutely did say that

[ebon notch]

you turned my statement into a blanket statement for all of m+

[gusty mirage]

Assassination rogue is terrible in M+, actually horrendous, dogshit, kaka, poo poo, idk how many other adjectives I need to use

[gusty mirage]

you literally bring utility and cc

[ebon notch]

yes

there is a balancing act between the two

shmeeps

ive literally seen it

[gusty mirage]

and you're suggesting they drop utility for damage

[keen spruce]

yeah the balancing act is that you take one of your best m+ talents

[scarlet orbit]

isnt the point where you need more dps in keys as a rouge where you spec into sub anyway

[vestal wren]

i love how your phrasing becomes more child-speak then more phrases you add

[ebon notch]

it wasnt a comment relevant to assa i understand that now

[keen spruce]

instead of a tiny bit more damage

[ebon notch]

so now we're talking about specifically assa again or

cause you've moved the goalposts twice

[gusty mirage]

if we're going to talk about "what's best for m+"

[void mesa]

[gusty mirage]

I'll just respond to every m+ question with "go to #subtlety "

idk

[vestal wren]

blizz didn't balance m+ a lot historical

[ebon notch]

i see people talking about fried chicken in here bud

[gusty mirage]

yes, and?

[ebon notch]

i respect it fried chicken tasty as hell

[gusty mirage]

we also don't start talking about generalities when it comes to actual wow discussions

[keen spruce]

don't get all sassy with me because you're making certifiably wacko claims

[gusty mirage]

"is not playing dtb throwing?"
"Well fire mage not playing combust is throwing"

that's essentially what you did

someone asked a specific question relating to m+ about an assassination talent

and you suggested they take more damage

because "plenty of people play without aoe silence"

you think assassination rogues that come in here are rolling up into +26s?

[keen spruce]

there's one assas rogue that has done 1 +26 and it was an underrot

[gusty mirage]

you think anyone would start their key with an assassination rogue in it?

[void mesa]

(who even gets let in to a 26+ on sin anyways right, everyone, right )

[keen spruce]

oh actually zero did a 27 last week too but also an ur

[gusty mirage]

so sure at a certain key level yes, people will sacrifice some utility for more damage because shit needs to die

that's inherently a true statement

[keen spruce]

wait no that was on sub

[ebon notch]

not according to shmeeps

[gusty mirage]

but that level of keys is irrelevant to assassination rogue

[gusty mirage]

he also played IC on sark

[ebon notch]

true ive played with like 1 this season

[vestal wren]

i can ask one of the high pushers to re-spec assassination when they rank their key one level down

[ebon notch]

i have no idea how their damage profile is or isnt

[gusty mirage]

it's the 2nd one for sure

the damage profile just isn't

[ebon notch]

but i realise i derailed the specifics of the conversation and i apologise

[gusty mirage]

sub does everything assassination wishes it could

but easier

and 100x better

[void mesa]

I played IC on Sark once, until realizing my group was griefing me and that I should never do that

But yeah

[gusty mirage]

sub even has better cleave than assassination

[vestal wren]

not sure about that^^

[void mesa]

On pure ST, sub brings slightly higher dmg for a few setups with a different gameplay loop

Outside that... yeah, sub just better at everything

[gusty mirage]

rupture actually does damage for sub, replicating shadows exists, and sectech cleaves

sub's cleave isn't good

but it's as good if not slightly better than assassination's

[quiet oar]

Can we have an oxi unhinged emote?

[gusty mirage]

assassination does nothing well

it's worse in ST, cleave, and aoe

[keen spruce]

at a key level where you are forced to drop some utility for damage in order to beat the timer

that was not what we were arguing

[void mesa]

Were okay at ST, dont break my dreams and reality

[vestal wren]

oh you mean specifically in m+?

[ebon notch]

this can apply to as low as +20 keys

its just more lenient

[gusty mirage]

in a +20 you take IW every single day of the week

without a doubt

[ebon notch]

it is simply a balancing act

[vestal wren]

i don't think you would intentionally go with replicating in raid for cleave

[deft flicker]

Yes but there are better options within the class

[ebon notch]

and im speaking purely generally

not assa now

[keen spruce]

that doesn't apply

to a 20

[void mesa]

dont make me cry this early on a sunday, I know it but dont wanna hear it D:

[keen spruce]

you can walk into a 20 on like a 415 ilvl anything

[gusty mirage]

I hope the 10.2 rework is like 90% assassination so I can collect the tears of the rest of the rogues

and sip on them

for an entire tier

after hearing foreverguy say assassination is "BROKEN" the first week of 10.0

[scarlet orbit]

assa in m+ loses so much single target dmg for getting aoe dmg while sub loses just a bit of his

[vestal wren]

there is some irony

[deft flicker]

Assa is still decent, and unless you’re pushing for HoF (or maybe even RWF) playing a comfy pick is worth more than having higher sim number in gear you can’t obtain yet

[vestal wren]

that assassination was like 10% ahead in st

and outlaw was noticable ahead in cleave/m+

[gusty mirage]

hey woah

I killed sark as assa

[vestal wren]

and subtlety was the spec that people ignored

[gusty mirage]

and did most of prog as assa

[void mesa]

ik ik, just mostly memeing with the convo. I'm still mainly playing sin, tho I do m+ on sub cuz my group is mid and I need to do more than "just my part"

altho I've been playing VDH/mage more often lately...

[gusty mirage]

yeah I'd love to crank out assassination in keys even though its bad, but all I do is pug

and I just can't lmao

[vestal wren]

think tuning changes made sense early on, but tuning is fairly whack now

[void mesa]

pugging on sin

[gusty mirage]

I'd rather play sub and hard carry

[void mesa]

people just kick you out once they inspect

at least at my noob io of almost ksh x_x

[gusty mirage]

given that balancing isn't an on the spot thing and more planned than blizzard lets on, I think rogue got the shit end of the stick

[vestal wren]

they would need to invite you first

[gusty mirage]

because they nerfed all 3 of our specs

and then buffed 5 specs beyond what all 3 were at

[clever sapphire]

CB + Secret tech in a big aoe pull with augvoker just hits different

[void mesa]

now im really not looking forward to finishing work, logging on and being sad

[gusty mirage]

at one point I was doing like 800k dps in aoe with an augvoker, why would I play assassination lmao

[vestal wren]

its just the meta atm tbh

even subtlety rogues have issues finding keys

and subtlety is fairly good in m+

[gusty mirage]

sub is absolutely bonkers in m+

[vestal wren]

the meta is to strict atm, with 3 dps dominant

[deft flicker]

You’re really good at all three flavours of rogueing, so the difference between most comfy and least comfy isn’t as big

[gusty mirage]

stealthi finished a brackenhide at like 320k overall

[scarlet orbit]

in a world without sp/mage/aug im pretty sure sub would be s tier rn it feels stronger then the last saison

[gusty mirage]

lmao

[vestal wren]

[gusty mirage]

he's an absolute unit

granted a fire mage would've been like

400-500k overall

lmao

but still

it just works well

[quiet oar]

With Aug

or without

[vestal wren]

think thats the point

[gusty mirage]

spriest is great and brings a shit ton of utility

[gusty mirage]

with

[clever sapphire]

Meta currently is fire mage and 2 support specs

[gusty mirage]

and they bring PI

you PI the fire mage and yourself

[clever sapphire]

Seeing how tanks do same dmg as SP

[gusty mirage]

have md

have fort buff

[deft flicker]

*4 support specs

[gusty mirage]

have mind soothe

mindsoothe is giga for skipping trash

[vestal wren]

the dungeon pool is just forcing priest

[gusty mirage]

and you inherently make the fire mage better

[quiet oar]

Would be intersting how much the Aug did

[vestal wren]

and avoker is rly good, too good to not slot in

[gusty mirage]

so spriest is locked in, augvoker is locked in because it makes a +22 feel like a +17

hpal is stupid strong

[quiet oar]

It doesnt feel big, to get buffed by aug

[gusty mirage]

bear druid gets a free lay on hands every 20s

then fire mage just absolutely shits out damage

[vestal wren]

tank is the position you could in theory change the most

[gusty mirage]

yeah you can swap to like vdh

and depending where the damage buffs put them, maybe prot pala can sneak a few into the big boy keys

but prot pala just fucking dies

that's the issue

[vestal wren]

dps is the hardest, because its only one slot you can change

[quiet oar]

But VDH too right?

[scarlet orbit]

in nl you could argue for a warry aswell

[gusty mirage]

yeah but vdh shits out damage

and buffs the spriest and firemage

[vestal wren]

and fire mage or boomie are very hard to beat

[quiet oar]

Yeah i know

and Buffs

[gusty mirage]

if the prot pala buffs

[quiet oar]

and why do they play bear?

Vers buff and offheal?

[royal lantern]

unkillabe+ridicolous offheal

[gusty mirage]

tanky as fuck, vers buff, and off healing

[royal lantern]

and vers buff

and shitton of cc

[gusty mirage]

and brez

[scarlet orbit]

also insane dps aswell

[quiet oar]

Yeah ok makes sense

[earnest remnant]

Logs From the 320k overall run

[gusty mirage]

📸

I have the screenshot you sent me still

😛

[quiet oar]

How much was the active dps?

Thats the DPS you would have on details without avoker

[vestal wren]

love the name

"haste lover"

[gusty mirage]

speaking of which

why the fuck is the mini game on sark haste

when it's bad for like

5 specs

[quiet oar]

Why its not your best stat

[gusty mirage]

or just flat damage

[vestal wren]

i have a idea, but its a hot take

[gusty mirage]

lmao

[earnest remnant]

285k

[quiet oar]

Yeah flat dmg

[quiet oar]

Fucking big

[gusty mirage]

like make it give you 5-10% more damage

thus equally good for everyone

[quiet oar]

So he basically buffed you 35K

[vestal wren]

encounter design might be about giving diffrent classes/specs benefits

[gusty mirage]

encounter design is about making warlocks feel better about themselves

because they're all miserable human beings

[final star]

@ebon notch owned

[quiet oar]

Its literally unfair

[ebon notch]

wait that was log dps?

[quiet oar]

How much DMG casters do

[vestal wren]

and giving haste is something that has wast diffrent outcomes, some classes get absurd value from it

[quiet oar]

on Sarka

[earnest remnant]

And we did some funnel aswell

[gusty mirage]

yeah man its absolutely disgusting

love coming up from the mini game and full ST fucking the boss

and looking at details

and seeing the demo lock doing like 1982739812378912932189379182 dps

[final star]

Ur demo locks are dead ur lying

[quiet oar]

You are like 5-8 place in P1

[gusty mirage]

fu

[final star]

[quiet oar]

and just get demoted to 10-12

[vestal wren]

you forgot a u

[gusty mirage]

toxic ass bri'ish boy

[earnest remnant]

Yeh ?

[keen spruce]

[final star]

ILY but it was right there

[royal lantern]

hey, they pressed tyrant once, thats why they are allowed to do it

[ebon notch]

ive never seen an aug evoker give that little dps

[royal lantern]

[gusty mirage]

fun fact, we could've killed sark at like pull 178

but our warlocks decided to floor pov over half of p3

we had a 2% wipe

🙂

[final star]

That's normal

[vestal wren]

how many pulls did it take?

[keen spruce]

oxi has a death note

[final star]

Poor locks having soak bomb

[keen spruce]

[final star]

[gusty mirage]

260 something I stopped counting

[final star]

That's why I had to do it on prog

Immune gang

[vestal wren]

oh

[final star]

(we also had no immunes left)

[gusty mirage]

nothing's more painful than wiping to enrage

and watching your 2 biggest dps for sark dead

for almost all of p3

you jsut cry

[void mesa]

Hot take: have multiple sark stuff to pick up for various stat buffs, max 10 so you cant get all of them

Now you dodge some and get others

[gusty mirage]

@earnest remnant bro how is a client gonna call me on a sunday

"Oh you're closed today?"

[earnest remnant]

[gusty mirage]

dog its sunday

[earnest remnant]

Im on my Way to the airport

[keen spruce]

anyone got a +25 fh

[earnest remnant]

Hope someone calls me. Just so i Can send a Picture of me boarding the plane

[keen spruce]

https://tenor.com/view/help-me-sponge-bob-squidward-tentacles-beg-gif-17392663

[earnest remnant]

I have a 26 fh or a 27 dont remember

[vestal wren]

can you send me a picture of you boarding?

[keen spruce]

are you gonna be home before tuesday for the greatest duck/racoon teamup of 2023

[earnest remnant]

Im eu

[gusty mirage]

are you coming to visit me

[keen spruce]

goddamnit

[gusty mirage]

bro no one wants to run that shit ass dungeon with you

[earnest remnant]

Im hunting Down tisu

[gusty mirage]

[keen spruce]

[gusty mirage]

same team also designed zskarn

so makes sense

unaware seems to be their thing

[final star]

It's because blizzards encounter designers are one dimensional and only see haste as a tangible reward for completing something

[gusty mirage]

make sure you fart in seli's direction when you land in yermany

[final star]

Go give whispyr a kiss on the forehead

[vestal wren]

i don't think the encounter design team does consider benefits like haste that fundermentally

whispyr isn't in germany anymore iirc

[gusty mirage]

yeah I think everyone's assumptions are correct

[final star]

Fly him back

[gusty mirage]

they just go "lust is big damn give lust"

[final star]

Kiss him on the forehead

[gusty mirage]

I'll fly you back

and give you a kiss on the forehead

how about them apples

[final star]

[void mesa]

Sin chat is way too wholesome to be a wow related channel

[keen spruce]

[void mesa]

Wheres the toxic behavior I've seen everywhere in game

Ty shmeeps, now I feel like I'm in general chat again

[deft flicker]

In warlock discord

[void mesa]

Ohgod im not joining that cesspool

[deft flicker]

Or smth idk haven’t been there much

[gusty mirage]

shmeeps just angry no one wants to run dawn of the infinite with him

pug it like I do

so you want to delete wow

20 minutes in

[keen spruce]

no no i wanted to run stealthi's 26fh

[void mesa]

Damn, I was about to suggest I can run it

[keen spruce]

but yes i also want daggie funnel in mega dungeon

[void mesa]

(And get a carry on an alt)

[gusty mirage]

you want people in here

[quiet oar]

I pugged it with zac

[gusty mirage]

to funnel you a dagger that's an upgrade for them too?

[quiet oar]

Wasnt too bad

[gusty mirage]

[keen spruce]

only if htey already have it

[pseudo hamlet]

I applied to +17(not bothering doing +20 because of the myth 3/3 track) for the GV. I received invite, accepted it.
Then I noticed that another rogue(lower r.io, lower ilvl, lower amount of +20M's done than me) left the group immediately after I joined. I asked him if the leader kicked him out - he said yes.
So... I waited for the full group, we started the key. Put Tricks on the leader, aggroed everything, they killed him, Vanished, wrote "wtf are you doing?" and whole group disbanded.

[void mesa]

mah man

doing gods work out there

[keen spruce]

mook said he would funnel me daggie but i don't think he's awake yet

[gusty mirage]

you kill echo yet

?

[keen spruce]

we had out best pull yesterday

14%

[void mesa]

I think my rogue aint locked on DotI

[keen spruce]

with 19 people

[gusty mirage]

Pog

SOON

[keen spruce]

[void mesa]

wait what

[gusty mirage]

[keen spruce]

our tank broke his foot playin soccer an hour before raid

so our ret was playing prot

[void mesa]

19 people

[keen spruce]

we had a trial

a 338 resto sham

and 2 bench players in

[pseudo hamlet]

May be a dick move, but shouldn't really invite other people if he don't want to do M+ with them

[keen spruce]

but one of them had to leave

so we had an hour of 19 people

[void mesa]

did he get 1 shot by everything?

[keen spruce]

trial was in last sunday too, he's figurin stuff out

the bench players were more of a liability

turns out though

that pulling with 19 people is like perfect dps for p1

so no damage stop at least

we were cookin too

[gusty mirage]

BP your heart out

fuck it

[vestal wren]

nothing wrong with using BP

[gusty mirage]

half your ranged are gonna die to portals anyway

because they're fucking dumb

I watched two ranged run into the same portal

when there was a wide open portal next to it

that no one took

lol

[keen spruce]

oxi you cloak 2nd boom in p3 yes

?

[balmy condor]

ye

2nd boom is cds

you technically shouldn't really cloak it

because it means a portal stays up

and spawns adds

but like, fuck em

[gusty mirage]

yeah and 2 stacks of the debuff kinda fucks

[balmy condor]

that too yeh

[gusty mirage]

boss ideally dies before or slightly after 3rd one

[void mesa]

Question that just popped in my head: how good/bad is elusiveness? Is the "Non area of effect" clause actually working or is it as wonky as every other rogue defensive?

[keen spruce]

it's really good

[gusty mirage]

makes feint work on everything, evasion also gives you DR

but cheat kinda nice

[keen spruce]

just almost never as good as cheat

[balmy condor]

yeh

[void mesa]

[gusty mirage]

I'd say elusiveness is a good play on magmorax

[keen spruce]

elusivness on magmo

very based

[void mesa]

do you take it and use evasion as mini-feint, or is it like, feint works better on the dot?

[keen spruce]

cheat doesn't save you when stacks tick you down, proc it, then the next tic kils you anyways

[balmy condor]

well...... kinda tho

cheat makes you basically immune for 3 seconds

[gusty mirage]

cheat doesn't save you when you randomly get double ticked from the initial group soak hit

[balmy condor]

should give healers enough time to save you

[keen spruce]

ain't no healers saving me on magmo

[balmy condor]

skill issue

[gusty mirage]

but that's a boss issue not a CD issue

[keen spruce]

yeah i'm talkin about magmo

[void mesa]

should give you enough time for crimson vial to save you right

[keen spruce]

specifically

[gusty mirage]

yeah just make sure you go pickpocket those buffs for it

[keen spruce]

you get big value feinting all of the stompies

[balmy condor]

when I proc cheat I get a lay on hands and a cocoon

[void mesa]

damn

[gusty mirage]

mistweaver

[keen spruce]

simps

[void mesa]

whispyr prio privilege

[balmy condor]

cry about it idk

[keen spruce]

I'm gonna have to write up a document on external usage in p1 sark when we get there

[gusty mirage]

mfers running a mistweaver like it's Kaelthas in CN

smh my head

[keen spruce]

to convince my raid that rogues aren't immortal

[balmy condor]

even on magmo I was never really in a situation where I was like "well feint here would be HUGE with elusiveness"

[gusty mirage]

yeah if you're gonna die you're gonna die

[balmy condor]

it was like yeah this is a dot and its ticking and it sucks

healer issue

fucking bozo

[keen spruce]

yes

[gusty mirage]

our kit is absolute dogshit against rot damage

[keen spruce]

healer issue

that is like the story of our raid tier

[void mesa]

goddamn

[ebon notch]

rip in peace leeching poison

[void mesa]

sometimes I really wish I'd be pushing Mythic raid, sometimes I read everyones story and im like

[balmy condor]

like it fucking mattered before the nerf

[void mesa]

im good without it all

[ebon notch]

mythic raiding fun as hell

[void mesa]

ill stay a casual plebeian with AotC

[ebon notch]

ive been on both sides of the spectrum

[void mesa]

I wanna run mythic/CE stuff, but just, finding 19 people who arent braindead and can schedule is hard

[gusty mirage]

don't do it

it's a bait

these people are lying to you

imagine heroic fights just more annoying

there you go

[void mesa]

you telling me AotC is peak content/fun? x)

[gusty mirage]

that's mythic

[ebon notch]

wtf

[gusty mirage]

aotc w/ friends was the most fun I've had in this game

[ebon notch]

mythic fights are a puzzle you gotta solve

its the only time you get to play balls the the wall

[void mesa]

I enjoyed unironically going blind into Megadungeon and figuring out fights

That part I really liked in recent game time

[gusty mirage]

bro the megadungeon

is actually the worst content I've played

in forever

[void mesa]

hahahaha

[gusty mirage]

that gauntlet