assassination

[verbal lark]

I see

[spice spire]

Wait until you learn about envenom, buddy

[balmy condor]

I'll save you some time

envenom doesn't work with zold, but it does with mastery

dashing crit works on envenom

poison bomb works with zold, mastery, and dashing I believe

but the dashing energy gain thing is questionable

it worked for a bit then didn't

doomblade is a bleed, but because it's a function of mut damage, it doesn't scale with anything

oh but it does work for lethal dose

so there's that

[gaunt moat]

It all makes a lot of sense if you don't think about it at all.

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

earlier in the expac I explained all this to realz

and he went "oh no"

and it wasn't fixable

[storm forum]

Wowee

can you imagine if everything worked like we expected it to

[gaunt moat]

Like half the stuff that's baked into talents these days used to be tier set bonuses or other item effects.
So I guess that's the root of the chaos.

[gilded burrow]

the real right answer is whatever you find most enjoyable or aesthetically pleasing

[strange niche]

when using vanish deathmark, is it vanish > shiv > deathmark?

[woeful meteor]

Shiv after DM

Vanish -> gar before dm is probably minimally better than doing it after

[balmy condor]

yeah you should be doing vanish -> gar

anything not vanish -> gar is pyscho shit

[woeful meteor]

You clearing HC before echo prog today?

[balmy condor]

ye

sales probably

[still leaf]

well no bomba in vault but got a 444 nelths

finally replaced that puzzle box

[woeful meteor]

Vanished to extend p1 gar on echo today, but something feels wrong about

[balmy condor]

what felt weird

[woeful meteor]

Idk dont like when i get vanish back and holding till 4 annoys me

half the reason I enjoy beacon vanish opener is me disliking to sit on the vanish for 2 min

[blazing jewel]

You’re going to hold vanish and you’re going to like it

[woeful meteor]

[blazing jewel]

Whispyr in the insane asylum after 19 redbulls to make the sepsis APL

Watching you not follow it

Smh

[woeful meteor]

I'm cooking timings rn, surely we dont have 2 much p1 dmg when people get more familiar with it and the dmg stop fucks me over

[blazing jewel]

P1 what boss

[woeful meteor]

echo

[blazing jewel]

Oh

Damage stops are stinky

[gilded burrow]

do you want to use fragment before or after dm?

[woeful meteor]

same time

[balmy condor]

never typically

[woeful meteor]

also dont use fragment

[gilded burrow]

but i only play m+ .-.

[balmy condor]

massive L

yep :) I never said it worked as intended

[woeful meteor]

what was fight time overide again for raid bots

[gilded burrow]

so then what trinkets do i use for someone who only plays m+?

[woeful meteor]

Dice+Fragment and pray for basically any raid trinket from the timewalking/4 dungeon box every other week

[balmy condor]

naw frag sucks in m+

[wide bolt]

whats the command for the consumables sim again?

[balmy condor]

you'd probably play dice + raid horn

or you'd play like pvp trinket or alchemist stone

[limber lion]

Only plays m+

Plays Assassination

With Frag

[balmy condor]

its in sub faq maybe

I don't think we have a command for it

[wide bolt]

i remember we used to have !oils

[balmy condor]

sin is very one track for consumables

[gilded burrow]

im very, very new :))

[balmy condor]

yeah that was back when there was actual choice in consumables

[limber lion]

That's great!

We love new players

[wide bolt]

just buzzing rune + corrupting rage then?

[balmy condor]

yep

[woeful meteor]

it's in #subtlety-faq if you mean the sim for it

[wide bolt]

ty king

[balmy condor]

np

[solid mica]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[balmy condor]

bro kill me

I'll never be able to replace this dogshit ass ring

[bronze pike]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1045092941129072680.gif?size=96&quality=lossless

[blazing jewel]

[bronze pike]

Annulet obliterates

[woeful meteor]

what's the command for custom fightlength and variance again can't find it anymore

[balmy condor]

max_time vary_combat_length

[gilded burrow]

i’ll stick to sub i think cause it sounds like i have no idea what i’m doing lol

[woeful meteor]

ty

[gilded burrow]

cause it said for bis gear for m+ for sin rogues was fragment plus dice

[limber lion]

You're the third person I've seen ask this the past 2 days

what are you guys simming for

[tacit otter]

rashok in my case

[woeful meteor]

Wanted to check if Apl just always vanishes at 2

Also did it for rashok, but I forgot the command within 2 weeks and couldn't find it again

[limber lion]

There's easier ways to do that lol

Just look at the vanish line in the apl

[woeful meteor]

That's to simple

Also I cooked some insane timings for a 3min fight yesterday, now I just need a Boss to test it on

[limber lion]

I'm guessing it's just whatever I suggested yesterday

[woeful meteor]

yep

[limber lion]

Didn't necessarily work for 2:40 but sure does for 3mins

[woeful meteor]

ye the 20 sec make it worthwhile to sepsis with the 4 set

[limber lion]

As long as it's like 2:55-3:05

Otherwise it's just a missed Sepsis cast

[runic hinge]

1.5 you will lol

[heavy coral]

You will be, In 10.1.5 40% nerf

[restive falcon]

they just nerf in 10.1.5

[runic hinge]

Jinx

[balmy condor]

I knew this was gonna happen

[heavy coral]

[restive falcon]

[balmy condor]

[restive falcon]

[balmy condor]

too bad I'll be slamming maplestory

[obtuse vale]

@balmy condor I've been fortunate enough to get my hands on 3 good trinkets. 431 suffering, 431 DragonBomb and currently a 424 beacon. When I Sim it says dragon/beacon is slightly best. I mostly raid. Is that the right combo and if I do mythic + change to suffering?

[restive falcon]

[balmy condor]

you always play bomb, beacon/suffering you can swap

beacon you pray for crits

suffering you pray for procs

neither will happen

you will be depressed

[obtuse vale]

Lol

[balmy condor]

suffering will deadass be like 6% uptime on a pull

and then the next it'll be 20%

thing is horrid

another day

[balmy condor]

[storm belfry]

ring deadge

[limber lion]

Holy fuck

Whispyr summoned the nerf

[limber lion]

??

Literally 11 minutes before the post

[eager solstice]

sub needed a buff? pushing us all to go play sub

[maiden gust]

wheres the sin compensation buff for ring nurf

[storm belfry]

idk

but they buffed my main class

by 25%

rdruid

[balmy condor]

yeah, cause I complain about it every 10 minutes

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

sin doesn't benefit as much from the ring, no compensation needed

[storm belfry]

[gaunt moat]

Well now you know when you're replacing it

[young nacelle]

[keen spruce]

oxi did all of that science to cook up a way to remove anulet

for nothin

[balmy condor]

I did it

I can replace it

it's margin

suck it losers

we out

craft ring

re-gem everything

re-enchant

then pog

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

skill issue

[gusty mirage]

why do you hate me

[keen spruce]

annulet compensation

[balmy condor]

is outlaw melting

someone go check

[gaunt moat]

We already got our compensation a week ago

[balmy condor]

I'm scared

[gusty mirage]

not yet

[keen spruce]

they're hitting 1.7m beacon crits

[woeful meteor]

they are removing the 1,7 mil crits for law 😄

[balmy condor]

the law

[blazing jewel]

Id say small melt

Not iceberg melting

[gaunt moat]

#outlaw right now

[drifting cloud]

yo they nerfed ww

ty blizz for keeping game balanced

[gaunt moat]

huh?

[balmy condor]

"right now" as if that's not the channel 24/7 for the last 8 years

[blazing jewel]

Is it the gunpowder that taints their mind

[keen spruce]

so what like ~18 specs got annulet compesation

https://tenor.com/view/john-oliver-cool-sarcasm-sarcastic-gif-8465330

[cerulean nest]

literally had my crafting order in for toxic boots when that news dropped

yoinked and made wrists instead LOL

[solid mica]

what constantly makes leeching poison fall off?

[woeful meteor]

A perfectly coded game without bugs

[minor gate]

I’d say it’s more the scurvy

[lethal mortar]

datamined changes announce

ctrl + f rogue

azurite power changes

diesofcringe

[gaunt moat]

It's okay, sin will get back to its proper place at the bottom of the rankings

and eventually we'll get another 5% buff

[bronze pike]

checking outlaw

they are melting cause other classes got buffed cause annulet nerfed

same ol sameol

[keen spruce]

how would this affect toxic boots

wouldn't it be less heal proc munching

[cerulean nest]

if sub ends up surpassing it or something then I haven't "wasted" a spark on something I wont be using

[stiff geode]

Toxic boots+patch bonked? I just made them last week

[keen spruce]

o

that makes senes

[midnight mist]

🤨

[bronze pike]

no guy ss

[runic hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/im-playing-both-sides-both-sides-its-always-sunny-frank-retires-s10e09-gif-17913970

[dark token]

What news

[cerulean nest]

the sub buff on ptr?

[keen spruce]

akimbo's post is going to cause great confusion for the next couple of hours

[cerulean nest]

delete it, I apologize lol

[keen spruce]

when it has nothing to do with assas

[cerulean nest]

i play both specs lmao

[keen spruce]

no let them cook

more content

[halcyon zealot]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[dark token]

Why does that change anything about embellishment

Lmao

It's a 4% aura buff

[indigo mulch]

Does sub really need a buff? arent they doing just fine? lol

I mean i guess its good 😮

[peak bobcat]

Do we beacon after cds?

[cerulean nest]

I just didnt want to make an embellishment for a spec that I may end up switching off of yet, so I made wrists to give me more flexibility until I see the outcome of the 10.1.5 changes

Im sorry to all who i confused

[drifting cloud]

its a compensation buff for a patch you dont even have release date for tho

[dark token]

All specs use toxic patch and slimy boots tho

[cerulean nest]

sin uses toxic thorn dont they?

[balmy condor]

yep

[cerulean nest]

im being gaslit

[balmy condor]

I believe I need to consolidate these pins

[deft flicker]

Make a bot that randomly repins stuff every hour or so

[gusty mirage]

stones are like 6% of their damage and the stones are getting nerfed by 40%

so

yeah kinda

[gusty mirage]

gar > snd > ER > rupture > bacon > rest of opener

[peak bobcat]

thanks 🐐

[proven echo]

Possibly very noob question: does shiv buff slimy boots procs?

[gusty mirage]

it does not

[proven echo]

thankyou!

[gusty mirage]

[earnest remnant]

its roughly a 2k increase in sim dps

[gusty mirage]

oh no

now you're rising to more middle of the pack

time for a nerf hammer

[earnest remnant]

subs AoE tho

is gonna be

ehm

[gusty mirage]

good

evoker exists

[bronze pike]

viable?

[gusty mirage]

I hope sub's aoe is the best in the game

[earnest remnant]

i dont

xD

[gilded burrow]

why is the fragment considered bad?

[bronze pike]

augvoker destroys all

augvoker chads RISE

[deft flicker]

Not bad, just worse than it looks

[solid mica]

i hope one of the rogues has the best anything in the game, don't even care which one

[gusty mirage]

it's oversimming for assassination

mutilate counts as 2 abilities (mh and oh portions)

so it's supposed to subtract 2 stacks

but it's also not subtracting stacks for mutilate in the sim

for whatever reason

[deft flicker]

Best class fantasy ✅

[gusty mirage]

based, at this point we take what we can get lol

[gilded burrow]

so its a decent trinket, not amazing right?

[gusty mirage]

yea like if you don't have anything else

go ahead and use it

but if you have dice/bomb dispenser/beacon/class trinket

they'll be better

[solid mica]

guess we got the best discord at least

[gusty mirage]

it's not by any means terrible

just not as good as it was simming

[sour citrus]

Gotta craft toxic thorn then ... 🤦🏻‍♂️

[gilded burrow]

thank you very much, was getting mixed signals earlier ;-;

[thick sail]

Quick question:

If they're buffing assassination offensive abilities by 5%, but then also blanket nerfing Onyx Annulet for all classes, and buffing Subtlety by 4% to make up for that nerf... Doesn't this mean the 5% assassination buff just essentially breaks even and we're right back where we were before in comparison to Sub, just now with a freshly nerfed ring slot?

[solid mica]

is the an optimization for beacon as sin? feels like i'm waiting too long if i don't do it right away

[earnest remnant]

Assa doesent run annulet, with good rings

[limber lion]

Gar Slice ER Rup Beacon

That's it

[thick sail]

Post nerf, you mean?

[limber lion]

No

Bis profile does not use Annulet

Current Annulet drops off with gear

[thick sail]

I'm not talking BIS, 425 gear

[spare flame]

Do you folks macro the bomb trinket to something or just hard cast?

[limber lion]

That's not what you said earlier

[thick sail]

I never would've assumed a 440 ring would be worse than a 420 Annulet

[solid mica]

thx

[limber lion]

But that's another "sim yourself" question

It might not sim better for you currently

But might later

That's the answer

[thick sail]

Show me in my post where I used the acronym "BIS"

[limber lion]

You didn't say "my 425 gear" either

If you generally talk about % buffs without mentioning anything, the assumption is at bis

[thick sail]

Let me clarify

[limber lion]

How would we know that you're talking about your 391 ilvl character with Shadowlands trinkets

We don't'

But yeah, Annulet will drop from use for everyone come 10.1.5 most likely

[thick sail]

It was my understanding that assassination performance across most levels of play is pretty low in terms of DPS output in M+

[limber lion]

But most users who get to high ilvls will not notice the difference at all

because they will have used different rings up to that poiont anyways

[thick sail]

And they were blanket buffing sin offensive abilities by 5% to help

[limber lion]

Mythic+ is an entire different beast

They are not buffing Assassination by 5% to help with M+

Raid is the main thing, Mythic+ is secondary

[thick sail]

Now they're nerfing Annulet, and in response to that, they're like, "ok we better also buff Sub by 4%"

[limber lion]

And Assassination wasn't performing up to par in Raid either

[limber lion]

But Sub loses ** a lot** from losing Annulet

[thick sail]

Right, sin isn't performing well in anything.

Hence the buff

[limber lion]

We lose literally nothing

They lose more than 4% from the ring

We literally lose nothing

Not a single point

[ebon notch]

ASSA IS SO FUCKING BROKEN

SHESHUS

[limber lion]

We got a 5% aura buff previously because we weren't performing well. Now we perform decently in raid

But the annulet nerf is not targeted at us

It's targeted at the classes who get major benefit from it

We're not one of them

[thick sail]

I see. So you're saying

Sub will lose way more

[limber lion]

Yes

[thick sail]

Because Annulet is helping them more

[limber lion]

That's why they get a compensatory buff

[thick sail]

Okay, that makes sense

[limber lion]

The buff is to compensate the loss of Annulet

not to buff the class because it's bad

We got buffed because we were bad

Not to compensate the loss of anything

[delicate hemlock]

assa and subt ST at ~442 ilvl will probably come out being suuuuper close together if thats what youre ultimately worrying about, wildsoul, rather than stressing about the exact ups and downs of each change

[thick sail]

I understand. My next question: why does the Annulet perform differently across different specs? Is it not PPM based?

[ebon notch]

@limber lion can i macro mutilate and exsang together?

can you sim it for me??

[drifting cloud]

!mute daps

[ebon notch]

wtf

[drifting cloud]

missclick

[delicate hemlock]

some specs get more dmg from stat rings which makes onyx worse for them

[limber lion]

[ebon notch]

sim please!!!

ceverion is the server raidbots right

its not a person?? its like a wiki?

[ashen rover]

fuck exsang

[ebon notch]

so brave

collect your medal

[spice surge]

Feels like its a bit of both ngl, WW and ret got a 2% buff to compensate but sub got a 4% for some reason.
Even though a 2% buff to sub would be almost exactly neutral (bis profile simmed 50 higher with a 2% buff)

Not to mention its a bit unreasonable to buff subs aoe by 4%

[strange python]

These are the changes we get?

For our change patch cycl

[limber lion]

No

[limber lion]

I'm guessing you know that aura buffs don't affect trinkets/melees

But just pointing it out if you're doing some raw % increases

[spice surge]

Well ye, im simming the changes

Not doing napkin math

[limber lion]

Yeah but using spell overrides, right?

[spice surge]

Ye

[limber lion]

Good stuff

[earnest remnant]

he is smart

im not

[gusty mirage]

false

[earnest remnant]

well i dont know how to do overrides he does

so it equals me being stupid

and him smart

[drifting cloud]

sweden > denmark in a nutshell

[earnest remnant]

technically

im not danish

so

L take

[strange trail]

where do we use beacon on the opener ?

[limber lion]

After Rupture

[maiden ginkgo]

I didn't see the news before, should we still not be playing exsang? still borked?

[limber lion]

Yes, do not play it

[maiden ginkgo]

ty

[strange trail]

ty

[limber lion]

np

[somber fractal]

no shot they made a note about compensating outlaw for annulet. can i doom?

[spice surge]

#subtlety message
I even made em in a readable format now

[limber lion]

Yeah I saw, very pretty. Great job

[high berry]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[wraith mantle]

What do the changes on the ptr mean?

[balmy condor]

means the 10.0.5 ring will do 40% less damage

[limber lion]

10.1.5

I got you babe

[balmy condor]

you don't actually

[stuck knoll]

Nah Whispyr means the annulet will do less

[limber lion]

fuck

[balmy condor]

but that's okay

[stuck knoll]

He's still wrong tho

It was 10.0.7

[balmy condor]

bro

these patch names

[limber lion]

LMAO

[balmy condor]

swear to god

[stuck knoll]

[limber lion]

we're so fucked

[wraith mantle]

I meant the class and spell tuning

[marble hemlock]

Whispyr, I got something for you

[limber lion]

We didn't get any

[balmy condor]

what about it

[marble hemlock]

But dunno if you even want it

[stuck knoll]

wdym they nerfed some azerite powers

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

it's just a repost of the pvp aura

[vast swan]

Whispyr I think some of the dungeonslice formulas in your sim sheet are broken

[balmy condor]

are they

which import isn't working

[balmy condor]

yeah that's on purpose

[woeful meteor]

they nerfed echoing blades you know what that means for our rework

[vast swan]

https://tenor.com/view/homer-gif-26329300

I think I just need to call it a night

[fleet pagoda]

I finally got 4 piece today and its... surprisingly insane for m+?! Poisoned Edges was on par for envenom damage for a Neltharus run. unless details isn't tracking it correctly

[balmy condor]

poisoned edges is the 2 set

[fleet pagoda]

oooh

[limber lion]

Sure but Envenom also has the passive effect as well as Poison Bomb tied to it right

[balmy condor]

the 4 set nature damage buff doesn't apply to poison bomb through poisoned edges

it just buffs it directly

[fleet pagoda]

i'm messin' with it on a target dummy right now, the buff is called Poisoned Edges...

[balmy condor]

yeah

details tracks the 2 pc

[fleet pagoda]

i'm lost. both the 2 piece and 4 piece are called Poisoned Edges?

[balmy condor]

the bonus damage on rupture and crimson tempest

is poisoned edges

[fleet pagoda]

the 40% buff is called that as well

[balmy condor]

yes

it's called taht

but it just increases nature damage

like if you envenom, the envenom will do 40% more

it won't do envenom, and then 40% of it as poisoned edges damage

[fleet pagoda]

indeed. just seems whacky to me they couldn't shakeup the nomenclature on these set bonuses

[devout mirage]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[balmy condor]

it's actually worse than that

[fleet pagoda]

i don't think it was recorded as a separate damage value in details for me before today so i was fixin' to get bamboozled all around

[balmy condor]

the funniest part of the whole thing

is that the actual bonus itself

is listed as "10.1 assassination rogue tier bonus 2 piece" and 4 piece

[fleet pagoda]

[balmy condor]

and then those effects themselves

proc "poisoned edges"

[slow needle]

That is nice and descriptive at least?

[keen spruce]

this pug randomly waited till nelth

to give me 6 power infusions

without me asking

[gaunt moat]

secret fan

[strange python]

Are there no doomers about lack of changes because everyone gave up

[fleet pagoda]

i think there's been acceptance that dooming isn't facilitating changes any faster

[gaunt moat]

I said from day one when there wasn't anything about rogue that there won't be. I never expected any.

[limber lion]

Dooming is the dumbest thing and doesn't help at all

[gaunt moat]

but people were coping.

[limber lion]

Completely pointless

[strange python]

I took "rogue changes are coming" to mean rogue changes are coming.

[limber lion]

And thus they are coming

[keen spruce]

just cuz they ain't here yet don't mean they aren't comin

[limber lion]

Just because they don't post about it every week, doesn't mean we ain't getting em

[gaunt moat]

I'm convinced it was a typo or internal misscommunication.

[runic hinge]

If rogue changes come that’ll be cool. If not I’m having fun playing wow either way.

[cerulean nest]

I'm a rogue till the bitter end, the class is too fun to play

make lemonade boys

[strange python]

I think the actual answer is realz has to tend to a personal emergency and they're delayed. My anger is that blizzard won't come out and say "rogue changes are delayed"

And is just sitting there silently while people wait

[gaunt moat]

who even knows if he still works on rogue at all at this point.

[somber fractal]

is that a real thing or you just made it up?

[gaunt moat]

apparently yes

[next arch]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[bronze pike]

Doom this

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/965830301093888042.gif?size=96&quality=lossless

[strange python]

I could be wrong or it could've been a terrible joke but supposedly realz posted in DH disc that he had a family emergency to tend to and the discords being toxic are why he left

Didn't say anything about tuning or job impact but the implication is yes.

All of which is to say: people being dicks to a single dev are fucking idiots

[bronze pike]

^ this is true

[strange python]

But it still makes no sense to me that blizz can't just say "hey, rogue changes are delayed" instead of leaving everyone wondering.

[somber fractal]

imagine being blizzard and only having 1 dude that can work on rogues

[strange python]

I mean if the guy in charge of it can't help direct or sign off it makes sense to delay

[bronze pike]

I mean it’s teams

[strange python]

I don't even have an issue with them delaying changes. I have an issue with the radio silence.

[bronze pike]

The dude is the only guy that does communication on his own time

Not company time

And brings feedback back and forth

[strange python]

Right. So why hasn't blizzards comms team said anything?

[keen spruce]

where was there ever a definitive dev announcement that said "rogue changes are upcoming"?

i haven't seen this

[bronze pike]

A line saying

“Tuning changes for Evoker, holy and rogue and many more”

[strange python]

The original 10.1.5 announcement was that rogue, pal, mage were getting changed.

Mage not evoker

[keen spruce]

well yeah they did the RTB change

for outlaw

[bronze pike]

Frankly it’s so vague and the fact they did rogue “changes”

[keen spruce]

that's what they were referencing

iirc

[bronze pike]

They don’t have to explain anything else

That in the business field is what we call

[keen spruce]

i think they just didn't specify that well

[bronze pike]

“We did a thing as a company so fuck u

[keen spruce]

and if it was just tuning changes then technically we also got tuned

they didn't say they were reworkin our talents or anything

except exang in december

[bronze pike]

I mean rogue changes are coming

Outlaw is expecting gs changes along with other changes

So it wouldn’t be a stretch to assume other spec changes same day

[keen spruce]

yeah i mean they made some minor changes

[strange python]

And given the scale of the paladin and mage changes, and how bad the rogue talent trees (and state of the specs) are, that we would get similar changes.

[bronze pike]

Not gonna lie

[keen spruce]

i mean that was just your assumption tho

and probably justified

[bronze pike]

That’s subjective

[keen spruce]

but i wouldn't call it a total rug pull

[bronze pike]

Cause to me as much as I think sim needs a rework

[strange python]

"they don't have to" doesn't absolve them of being trash for not doing so.

[keen spruce]

they're just not the changes we want rm

rn

[bronze pike]

Mages we’re shit

And didn’t play around anything and were screwed if they moved off rune of power

[keen spruce]

idk rogue feels fine rn. lots of room for improvement and talent reworks that would make them nicer

but we're not a complete dumpster fire

[strange python]

And assassination is an ST spec that does less ST than Devoker and warlocks.

That's pretty shit.

[gusty mirage]

and uhdk*

[strange python]

I'd rather have been a mage than a rogue this tier idk wtf you're copium huffing

Arcane was insane

[keen spruce]

UH and warlock is a PI problem

[bronze pike]

Arcane played like aids

[unreal parcel]

!whispyr

[prisma monolith]

Whispyr's Simulation Spreadsheet: https://tinyurl.com/292m89ev

[gusty mirage]

PI is a problem

that blizzard seems to want to keep

so

[bronze pike]

Yea sin needs buffs

[keen spruce]

yeah but it's not specifically a rogue tuning problem

it's a big problem

[strange python]

And sub and outlaw and sin didn't play like aids?????????????

[bronze pike]

Unironically?

Outlaw felt fine

[keen spruce]

but not in the scope of what we're talkin about exactly

[gusty mirage]

I mean rogue got overnerfed early last tier and then everything else got buffed above the moon of where rogue was

we got correction buffs

and sin got a 5% aura buff

[keen spruce]

outlaw gameplay loop is fun

[bronze pike]

Sin I have issues with but I don’t play enough to consciously talk about or weigh an opinion

[keen spruce]

well idk i quit playin when they switched to KIR

but before that it was fun

[bronze pike]

Mage tho, only had numbers and it still played like ass

[keen spruce]

sub kinda feels like sub has always felt

[bronze pike]

Like shadow priest and unholy is just awful

[gusty mirage]

ngl when rogue had numbers, everyone was ecstatic

[keen spruce]

they have 2 viable builds

[strange python]

All three rogue specs play like ass. At least arcane slams.

[gusty mirage]

poor performance brings up the glaring "play like shit problems"

[bronze pike]

Big numbies are fun

[gaunt moat]

talking about aura buffs.
SimC ever gonna put in the right value of 7%?

[bronze pike]

Ye

[keen spruce]

yeah i mean no one would be complaining about playstyle if we were doin damage

well a few of us would

[bronze pike]

Again subjective

[keen spruce]

but 99% of people wouldn't

[bronze pike]

The rogue tree has issues

[keen spruce]

and they just echo the design issues that the TCs bring up when our numbers are mediocre

[strange python]

Even when rogue specs were strong raid participation was very low and longtime players were vocally unhappy with sub and sin.

[bronze pike]

But arcane played around nothing and fucked u if you made a mistake or a mechanic

[bronze pike]

I won’t deny that, every spec has issues but again

As much as it sucks to hear

Other specs just needed more help in blizzards eyes

Holy had no identity

[keen spruce]

their identity was running out of mana in 3 globals in pvp

[strange python]

Then don't fucking put rogues in the same sentence as mages and paladins.

[keen spruce]

[strange python]

This is literally communications 101

[keen spruce]

do we even have a .5 release date yet?

[bronze pike]

Again, outlaw is expecting more changes with gs and other stuff soon. So it’s not a stretch to assume sin and sub changes will be included

You are jumping the gun, and I don’t blame you

[strange python]

Your cope here is absolutely wild

[bronze pike]

I don’t see how it’s cope

But go off

[strange python]

You're somewhere between "we don't need changes even though they said we're getting changes" and "more changes could still come the ptr isn't shipped yet" and "they're gonna nerf GS, have faith, more changes"

[keen spruce]

we're all agreeing that there's a lot of changes that we'd like to see

[strange python]

And all three of those are obviously fucking insane

[bronze pike]

I never once said rogue doesn’t need changes

[keen spruce]

no one said we don't need changes

[strange python]

The rogue tuning patch has had dozens and dozens of lines for warlocks, druids, and evokers.

If that doesn't make you mad you're a masochist

[bronze pike]

Because it says

“And others”

[keen spruce]

there were also .5 changes literally posted today about annulet so saying "more changes could still come" is completely reasonable

[strange python]

That's what I mean by the bullshit cope

[keen spruce]

and if they don't, then they ship when they're done

[bronze pike]

Idk

[keen spruce]

idk why it's worth getting hemeroids over it

[bronze pike]

I feel like this only got brought up cause some dude said “no one is dooming”

[strange python]

It's flat out disingenuous to suggest it's not obvious what the original implication of the 10.1.5 announcement was when seeing the wording and the changes shipped for others.

What obviously happened is that our changes got delayed.

But acting like we either don't need changes, it's acceptable that there's been no communication, or that this was ever remotely reasonable is just bull

[keen spruce]

okay again

literally no one said we don't need changes

[strange python]

Like, both of you sound like blizzard PR at this point

[bronze pike]

no one said

rogue doesnt need changes

[keen spruce]

i mean you're just making things up

[thorn bobcat]

if rogue had changes like warlock you d be mad about them as well

[final star]

[keen spruce]

that no one said lol

[bronze pike]

like the changes that did happen are being raged about too

despite being good changes

[strange python]

I'd rather get changes than be ignored for six straight years. Even if those changes are bad in the short term Id have faith that there would be more changes.

[keen spruce]

This just sounds like the ramblings of a child that's mad that mom said they're going to get ice cream at 4pm. but they're stuck in traffic and now it's 3:50 and they won't make it in time

[strange python]

Rogues have been ignored cycle after cycle. Bad changes for warlocks might suck for a few weeks but at least someone at blizzard is paying attention to their class.

[bronze pike]

we have to define changes i feel like

[balmy condor]

like 2 weeks ago when they hotfixed it

the aura numbers are just datamined

[bronze pike]

like this entire convo is not productive anymore

[final star]

ya it's cos ur having a conversation with an idiot

[keen spruce]

it's not like any of us disagree that we want changes

[bronze pike]

wee dont gotta go down that road

insulting people and such

its w/e

[keen spruce]

we're literally all on the same side

we're just saying there's no point in throwing a temper tantrum

cuz it doesn't do anything except clog up chat

exhibit A ^

[strange python]

I think that's bullshit too. It's pretty clear at this point that blizzard is at least moderately receptive to community rage/perception.

[keen spruce]

plz stop

[peak bobcat]

@gusty mirage holy shit first boss with beacon

3/3 crits on mag on the kill

[keen spruce]

o dang

tga's don't load in here

here we'll do it the scuffed way

[peak bobcat]

putting on for the assas boys

finally a big sin gamer on the leaderboard

[gusty mirage]

you rn

[keen spruce]

[gaunt moat]

I see people coming for my rashok log with PIs

Arrest them

[keen spruce]

[gaunt moat]

btw, have you seen the feral changes in theses notes?
like for real it's getting the VIP treatment.

[peak bobcat]

what are the odds

[limber lion]

50/50

[peak bobcat]

do or do not

[misty holly]

were our auras nerfed on the recent ptr datamine?

[balmy condor]

pvp

and they're just nerfed to what they are supposed to be

[trail root]

So will the pending nerf to the Onyx Annulet mean we can finally cycle it out?

[balmy condor]

same shit that got datamined last week

[balmy condor]

we already cycle it out without the nerf with good enough rings

[trail root]

awesome

[ruby birch]

bro

i got literally like

3 or 4 ambush procs only

at sark end

wtf is that

[gaunt moat]

I had one pull on rashok where I had 9 procs almost in a row at the start of the fight.
I thought game was bugging.

[rugged coral]

Is there a bug with Cut to the chase? my envenoms aren't extending slice anymore

[gaunt moat]

No. make sure it's actually talented.

[balmy condor]

first I'm hearing of it as well

change talent pages I guess

[spice spire]

Second time I heard it

First time it was a weak aura messed up

[balmy condor]

a classic

[gaunt moat]

that would be my 2nd guess after not actually talented.

[rugged coral]

weird, since i always had it talented, i'll try making a new page with/without and switching

[gusty mirage]

it was a macro actually

[spice spire]

Third time then

Forgot about that lad

[gusty mirage]

yeah lol

[solar bramble]

sooooo

did they forget assassination entirely, or they planning to change it?

[balmy condor]

they will announce changes when the changes are ready

[solar bramble]

they even noted outlaw and the change they plan for it. . and sub gets 4% (onyx annulet nerf offset)

[balmy condor]

assassination doesn't need compensation for the onyx annulet

[solar bramble]

i mean it's better than monk.

this is almost insulting

[static fable]

is Wafting Devotion better than Sophic on the offhand?

[gaunt moat]

it's just an offset for annulet. somewhat. it's not meant to fix WW

[solar bramble]

ya but WW gets 2%. . . sub gets 4%

[gusty mirage]

the ring was like 6% of sub's damage, idk how much it is for ww

[solar bramble]

probably more. lets go see

[balmy condor]

depending on gear, yes

[gusty mirage]

yep

prolly more

lol

[balmy condor]

but like I don't understand what we're upset about right now

[solar bramble]

so less. which is odd since fls boosts the rings damage

[balmy condor]

are we upset cause sub got more of a buff to compensate than ww?

[gusty mirage]

ig

[static fable]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iBcqceRkwHCXauGi9hocap its 0.9 less why?

[keen spruce]

cuz it depends on gear

[solar bramble]

mostly wondering where rogue changes are outside this. . . ww getting a 2% laughable buff was just there.

so many changes and adjustments to a multitude of classes. but rogue which was namedropped still hasn't really had any

the one change to outlaw. . . a note that outlaw gets more. and 4% compensation for sub

not even so much as a mention.

[gaunt moat]

and you probably won't see any roguers changes in 10.1.5
but these WW tuning is really not supposed to be a buff or a nerf

so they shouldn't be insulting or otherwise

[solar bramble]

it's compensatory ya. but rogue specifically was said it would have changes in 10.1.5. . . but still doesn't

holy paladin, mage, rogue . . and maybe 1 other? forget

the others are there plus some. . . still no rogue

[balmy condor]

they will come when they're ready

[solar bramble]

i'd like to believe that since you likely know more than your allowed to say. . . However, they havent' even mentioned in passing that it's in the works or nothing

[peak bobcat]

Let them cook

They’re doing something good

[balmy condor]

I mean we know that one of the main devs in charge of rogue changes had a sudden death in the family, they said so in felhammer afterwards

shit happens

things get delayed

it sucks

but it is what it is

complaining about it won't make them work any faster

and yes, they could say something about it

sure

but the changes will come whenever they come

[solar bramble]

if they said somethign about it i'd be far less annoyed. . . but they haven't

[balmy condor]

regardless of anyone's bitching

[gaunt moat]

HOLEE. I DUNNO WHAT TO GET
it's all good.

[solar bramble]

beacon hands down if you don't have yet

[gaunt moat]

cloak is bait right?

[balmy condor]

cloak is bis

take the cloak

[solar bramble]

cloak > beacon?

[gaunt moat]

but.. beacon? 🥲

[balmy condor]

I mean you could beacon

[peak bobcat]

Not playing exsang✅ Doing reasonable st damage✅

[balmy condor]

but like

you would play dice + cloak

before you play nothing cloak + beacon

so

take your pick I guess

if you want to parse high roll, the beacon for sure better

[solar bramble]

with cloak you drop beacon?

[flint pond]

You can’t phat crit a cloak

[balmy condor]

if he takes cloak he wouldn't have a beacon to drop

[quasi osprey]

Even without crits beacons more damage probably no?

[solar bramble]

i mean. if you already have a beacon, and get cloak you'd replace beacon with cloak? since bomb is more than beacon right?

[balmy condor]

what

if you had bomb beacon and cloak

you would run all 3

[gaunt moat]

The thing is, i saw how much cloak procs.. and it's like 4% of the fight.
other than that, it's the same as any other cloak.

[balmy condor]

447 dice > heroic beacon

441 dice is like, kinda equal

idk

I'm a beacon hater

do what you want

I wouldn't take the beacon out of that vault

[gaunt moat]

let's start by actually simming to see what we're working with

[balmy condor]

Nelth prog has soured me off of beacon

So much

[gaunt moat]

I also have a 447 fragment in vault. for the 2nd time

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

I literally have only one tier piece in my inventory

and it's the same one I get from my vault

[balmy condor]

Grats on 2 piece

Catalyst today

[gusty mirage]

he has a curio

don't believe his lies

[limber lion]

It's true, confirmed 3p!

A very massive gamer

[gaunt moat]

Yeah, so cloak sims highest.

[balmy condor]

Can’t spell whispyr without W

Gottem

[limber lion]

big true

[balmy condor]

Fuck beacon

Friendship with beacon ended

[gaunt moat]

But let's see what's the buff uptime for cloak in sims

[balmy condor]

Low

But if you get 2k crit during Deathmark

Woowee

That’s a biggun

[tawny pike]

is this good enough? https://wowanalyzer.com/report/1FbyYhc7TKk9XtDf/44-Heroic+Scalecommander+Sarkareth+-+Kill+(6:55)/Agnhild/standard/statistics

[gaunt moat]

I think it's a wait to kill heroic sark angle to see if I'll get anything, and then take cloak if not.

[thin gate]

4th id in a row where i get magmamoth scale trinket in vault?!

blizzard explain?!

[balmy condor]

Casts look okay

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

That’s the down phase

[tawny pike]

i was on bomb duty too...

[limber lion]

No excuses

100% or 0%

[tawny pike]

alright alright

[gaunt moat]

sorry, cloak is more like 6%, not 4%
And It seems very accurate since logs are in that exact margin.

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/JJ5NF/ddaa650bdf.png

[limber lion]

Hey I read that wrong, I thought he meant that it gets nerfed in 10.1.5 :'(

I no speak englando ok

[marble hemlock]

its more that he called it 10.0.5 when the ring came out in 10.0.7

[limber lion]

It's truly a showcase of dumbos

[marble hemlock]

and ronkley

[limber lion]

[balmy condor]

I never said I had a good memory

[still leaf]

maybe i wont craft a second dagger only showing as 600 more dps in sims, suprising since the other was almost 1.6k at 447

[limber lion]

Not surprising at all, off-hand benefits a lot less than main hand does

[still leaf]

i guess rings the next best option?

[balmy condor]

Lot of people crafting rings this week yeah

[still leaf]

heard caps also a good option since nothing else really has crit mastery, but ill prob just sim and see what comes out on top

[balmy condor]

Crafted 447 was -0.4% to my 447 tier

The tier helm has good stats

[gaunt moat]

It's such a hard call 😬
Why must I be tested like this.

[hot blade]

Take the cloak, run dice, 1 less button to press

[gaunt moat]

Beacon is rng, but so is cloak

beacon is 850dps over dice though. that's pretty big.

it is true though that 150dps is a very minor difference for added complexity.

[still leaf]

bacon is extra work but on demand and reliable but crit rng, cloak is just rng

pick the lesser of two evils

[hot blade]

Beacon also has casttime

[grim tangle]

I'd pick a socket

[pure moth]

anyone have the string for craftable items to add to raidbots?

[hollow vault]

it in tc-research pins

from fuu

[clever sapphire]

So do i understand correctly that the promised rogue changes are just % buffs

[limber lion]

You understand incorrectly

[clever sapphire]

pog

assa got 5%, sub 4%, meaning outlaw is getting 9%

[royal lantern]

remember when they said that they dont wanna do %aura buffs anymore

[clever sapphire]

https://tenor.com/view/liar-maury-that-was-a-lie-lie-detector-gif-15087184

first i get hit by overwatch pve cancelled, after that its a % assa buff, now its a % sub buff, and now overwatch pve costs 15 dollars

i love blizzard

atleast feral got "changes"

aight enough dooming for the day, how was your guys vault?

[royal lantern]

its 7am and im going to work

no vault for me rn

[balmy condor]

Socket

[blissful forge]

beacon cause cloak is dog in m+ setting

and also not worth over beacon in raid

uptime on that shit is legit near 0

esp. if you dont M prog

cause the bosses wont even live that long

that you get one proc of cloak off

[gaunt moat]

from the logs i've been looking it, it was about 6%. which matches the sims proc rate

[royal lantern]

yeha, but WHEN it procs during DM, cloak is great

another gamba in the gamba machine that is DF rogue

[blissful forge]

got it on my bdk and dungeon uptime is legit like 15-20sec

highest was 40sec

[gaunt moat]

for now i'll hold off to until raid tonight, to see if i can get anything form sark

[blissful forge]

but that was in a 20 weekly boost for guildie

[blissful forge]

yep

best deciscion you can make

just dont tell your guild that you have any of this in vault

[gaunt moat]

Yup

[blissful forge]

otherwise you prob wont have prio on either haha

5Head

[gaunt moat]

So far I've seen zero of those drop though. so chances are low even if it does.

[vocal cloud]

Finally some good loot

[gaunt moat]

me: Catalize belt cause it sims higher. Recraft bracers from 424 to 447.
Sim: -400 dps
WHAT

this makes so sense. if i test each individual change, it sims lower.
but a sim i did 6 hours ago before change was higher

Was something changed in SimC?

It does looks like SimC last build was an hour ago

must be this

[thorn fjord]

i saw some gains when i simmed after raid around 1:30 compared to what it was showing earlier

higher numbers

[visual hemlock]

gonna finally craft the correct boots this week 🎊

[gaunt moat]

try simming now

Simming higher seems very improbable considering they've disabled a bonus

[thorn fjord]

Running the same one again

Oh i didnt run latest... i used nightly

It did change tho @gaunt moat

[gaunt moat]

yeah, should be around 400dps lower, right?

[thorn fjord]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/b8uSLhw8chX4K8EyqWTUg6 was 3 hours ago

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m71NysEWkp7vrjxb45kc36 just now

[gaunt moat]

I would use a quick sim to test personally hah

[thorn fjord]

1k diff feels bad

[gaunt moat]

I was just freaking out that i might have fucked my upgrades somehow. but it's just a SimC fix.

[thorn fjord]

unless i did something wrong

[vestal wren]

just need to select nightly or latest

[thorn fjord]

@gaunt moat quick sim using latest https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mN5arK8Zbm7soAEMxVdyvA

[vocal oracle]

me too, gain some haste back lol

[gaunt moat]

you still sim higher than me

[thorn fjord]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/872AdMwQ8yZ9zbAqFw8GrU nightly

So it looks like theyre the same

[steel ridge]

Sepsis oversimming or what was that fix?

Sigh

[visual hemlock]

its gonna be stolen by cloak users XD

[gaunt moat]

Back to exsang/SBS

[thorn fjord]

Did exsang get fixed?

Would be really unfortunate if we lose the sepsis build

Its been alot of fun so far

[royal lantern]

you should craft every single slot that is under 447 first lol

boot difference is so minor, it doesnt matter

[thorn fjord]

Im thinking this weeks craft is a ring angle

[gentle gyro]

holy mother of poor vaults

[gaunt moat]

No I was making a joke

[thorn fjord]

https://tenor.com/view/not-funny-dwayne-johnson-seven-bucks-the-rock-fake-laugh-gif-20130201

[clever sapphire]

same, it was either socket or uldaman cursed trinket thingy

[steel ridge]

Never left sbs 😂

[balmy condor]

sepsis is still better than a mile

[royal lantern]

no silly

sepsis is DEAD now

D E A D

[thorn fjord]

DED

[steel ridge]

0,8% for me

[balmy condor]

are you still using puzzle box or what

it's like 3% for me

[steel ridge]

nope

bomb and matrix recalibrator

[balmy condor]

wtf is matrix recalibrator

[steel ridge]

firelands ragnaros trinket

[balmy condor]

[steel ridge]

ah its called restabilizer

now you certainly would have known

[balmy condor]

yeah 100%

[steel ridge]

sims like 400 dps higher than 441 call to suffering

at 437

[blazing jewel]

[supple snow]

What is happening to annulet?

[blazing jewel]

death

[steel ridge]

second crafting ring gang i guess

[vestal wren]

40% nerf to damage

[glad vapor]

but that is coming "after" the PTR I guess

[balmy condor]

it's 10.1.5 yes

[glad vapor]

not after the next restarts

restart

[balmy condor]

correct

[supple snow]

Thanks.

[glad vapor]

so aI dont quite understand the panic (just yet)

[steel ridge]

is the old catalyst the new catalyst?

[still leaf]

its the same thing but new tier and passive charges

[glad vapor]

I am also assuming teh nerf will come with our "cough" redesign "cough" so we are safe! 🙂

[balmy condor]

no panic here, we're already replacing our annulets

[still leaf]

you just complete the quest and you already have a charge to convert a piece of gear, same place

[night delta]

I'm wondering, they said they'll give buffs to specs that use the annulets to compensate, but didn't see one for sin rogue. Would it be because the annulet was barely above other options or something ?

[cobalt hemlock]

do you think they will nerf eranog ring too? still sims best for me even against 441 rings with best stats

[blazing jewel]

I cant wait to give every boss the big sepsussy and do big dam

anyone else

[balmy condor]

doubt it

you'll find a ring to replace it dw

it's stubborn but it leaves too

[night delta]

Yeah mine has already gone, mostly because I was sick of seeing so much vers, don't care about a -0.3%

[vestal wren]

@gusty mirage will be happy tho

[visual hemlock]

so this week we craft correct boots, what do we craft in 2 weeks? ring or second dagger?

[still leaf]

honestly is it just me or do i not really feel like sin has button bloat? feel like its really not as bad as some people say

[vestal wren]

given that he spend a hour or so yesterday to find out how to replace annulet

[grim jay]

Mine is gone and my sin gear still has 14-16% vers

#versgang

[balmy condor]

most people crafted rings this week

[still leaf]

mine has 13%, make it stop

[cobalt hemlock]

i mean vers has to be good for mythic prog right help out the heals

[balmy condor]

not really

vers damage reduction is always such a bait

cause unless you're getting one tapped by a mechanic and vers is saving your life

your healers are going to overheal the fuck out of it

and you're not going to be the priority for heals anyway

feint works on most big things

and if it doesn't, there's gonna be healer cooldowns to cover it

[cobalt hemlock]

!def

[prisma monolith]

Thanks to DynamicNigel for putting in the work for the book when everyone else abandoned it. View the current version here: https://tinyurl.com/57cnaezn

[balmy condor]

you're gonna reduce the damage you take by 5%, and you'll just get giga healed 0.1 seconds faster

[grim jay]

Not even the factor tho. As long as my sims dont want me to swap off of it, I wont. Vers isnt even really bad for sin

[balmy condor]

which really ain't that helpful

[cobalt hemlock]

oh cloak of shadow thing for this season dead?

[balmy condor]

yeah

it died with dragonflight

and then nigel put together a half-baked list for season 1

and no one gave a shit

so he abandoned it too

[cobalt hemlock]

unfortunate

[balmy condor]

fuck ton of work for maybe a dozen people to use it a season

ain't it

[night delta]

oh yeah, this guy finally got that bomb dispenser

[vestal wren]

big gz

[night delta]

now off to deliver my soul as expected of the deal I made

[vestal wren]

bad deal tbh

one item that is only relevant for a short time vs. your soul

[night delta]

nah, it's morgaged

for the patch only

[cobalt hemlock]

so we are expecting for them to announce the rogue changes for the 10.1.5 patch for is that dead?

[stray sage]

only cool cloak I know is if you get solo consumed in brackenhide then use cloak it cancels consume

[vestal wren]

most changes seemingly got delayed for 10.2

or maybe 10.1.7, not sure if we have a .7 patch this time

[cobalt hemlock]

i mean they at least anounced the mage changes and the holy pala they didnt say a word about rogue

[oak sky]

theres a .7

[cobalt hemlock]

other than balance department doing some buffs and compensations

[oak sky]

@vestal wren the roadmap had a .7

[grim jay]

Thats what I thought as they said they wait with compensation for OL until they fix GS

As they mightve waited with buffs to sub or the previous sin buffs until then aswell if they had smth in store

[vestal wren]

it is overall probably just that they lack the time, not that they want to delay changes

[grim jay]

Yeah I dont mind as long as we still are atleast mid

I rather have well thought through changes than just hastily made stuff bcs they lack time

https://tenor.com/view/not-funny-dwayne-johnson-seven-bucks-the-rock-fake-laugh-gif-20130201

[sterile jackal]

since when sin does not like haste? oO i just looked at bloodmallet ot of curiosity and it says crit/mastery

[night delta]

we don't "not like" haste

it's just usually at a lower priority than crit and mast

hell, even vers is... fine. Just not prio at all against the other 3

[sterile jackal]

interesting

[balmy condor]

I crafted my ring haste/mast today

haste good

[grim jay]

For me vers and haste were pretty close