assassination

[oak tangle]

what do you think if CT was weighted more to the direct damage side, and the dot it applied stacked up like ignite each time you pressed it (not the spreading part)

[oak sky]

wdym

ic spreads rupture

[warm parcel]

Were overcapping resources

Ic off cd sure

But if pull lasts past the 30s

[oak sky]

i dont really mind that much like

it just creates something you actually need to think about

[warm parcel]

Ive been spoiled by feral lol

[oak sky]

but in my ideal world ct dumps energy and thats what makes it special

[warm parcel]

Ic with no cd

Im fine with applying ruptures ecen if ic didnt exist

[oak sky]

me too

i actually prefer spreading rupture to ic

[warm parcel]

I just want that to be more interesting

[oak sky]

but i think in both cases i like ct

because you just end up spamming rupture

ct breaks up the monotony

[slow tulip]

imagine CT spreading / refreshing rupture

HOLY

[royal lantern]

spreading rupture should justbdo Something

[slow tulip]

[royal lantern]

shut up sublaw scum

go and complain about the F L O W beeing ruined

[slow tulip]

xDDD

imagine having to press sinister strike

im shaking

[royal lantern]

shitting and vomiting rn

using a generator that is not pistol shot or ambush omg

[grim jay]

Still better design if IC would spread the already existing dots

[warm parcel]

Spicy

[grim jay]

Since it would spread DM aswell

[warm parcel]

Something like soul swap

[slow marsh]

Ambush duh

[royal lantern]

i need to save that

[oak tangle]

envenom steals dot time from nearby targets to apply them to the target you cast it on and it works as a net positive for duration (just slightly)

[grim jay]

Its already enough that we have outlaw on the rogue discord, dont pull it out of the designated muted channel

[grim jay]

Lower IC CD, IC spreading dots instead of applying new ones, slight CT duration buff and Env cleaving to the 2 nearest targets that have rupture on them

[gaunt moat]

That's a neat idea.
but what if instead we double down on CT

[oak sky]

i actually want them to

but not by buffing it

by giving it more shit

[oak tangle]

making the dot it applies not be overwritten by a new one would go some distance

[warm parcel]

Doubling down on ct can work too

Just in its current form with current rupture its a miss

[oak sky]

yeah i mean

[gaunt moat]

That's effectively buffing it.
but if I understand you correctly, what you want from it, is to interact with the rest of our kit

[oak sky]

just do more

[royal lantern]

yes

[oak sky]

more interesting things

especially if we keep ic

[slow tulip]

many good ideas - however this is blizz so nothing will change but the % dmg increase or decrease and that it folks

[oak sky]

which we will

because blizzard likes every spec playing the same

[royal lantern]

the sub rogue incidient 2021

[slow tulip]

opsie

[grim jay]

[oak tangle]

i think some kinda of aoe siphon into a single target would be a cool ability

IC + garrote + rupture, and the siphon reduces duration around you to deal direct damage to a target

[gaunt moat]

Just wait until they make CT also extend SnD

[warm parcel]

[slow tulip]

how about CT spreads the bleeds to 8 targets, but if there no targets to spead - 15% more bleed dmg on the primary target

[oak tangle]

if our identity is going to be ST, then at least let us funnel from aoe properly

[grim jay]

"Poisoned blood sometimes gushes out of the wound of targets affected by both CT and your Lethal poison and splurts on your target, making them take more X damage per Stack up to Y."

[gaunt moat]

maybe CT can also proc PB.

maybe it can also add a debuff the increases poison application

[grim jay]

Dunno, buffing CT with additions as it is now is whack

[gaunt moat]

(I'm making a very obvious joke :P)

[slow marsh]

If CT procced on we'd just hard spam it in any kind of cleave

Which we could possibly do anyways

[grim jay]

Just a general statement😁

[slow marsh]

With tier

[oak tangle]

yo could you imagine the server crash as soon as you CT on the lasher pack in AA if they procced PB

[runic hinge]

Change ct to green and rename it poison bomb

[grim jay]

They should just make CT either "replace" rupture in aoe with a rupture spread passive or make it a shorter duration high damage bleed

[oak tangle]

general theme for my CT rework is that CT consumes something rather than applying something

[grim jay]

Well I dont want rupture as Main aoe spender

Thats why I dont follow that

😁

[oak tangle]

make FoK embed blades in all enemies hit, and the reworked CT consumes those stacks to deal damage to the targets

[grim jay]

I think making CT a better AoE bleed or taking off some load of your dot applying Phase is the way

[runic hinge]

Make fok give 1 combo point for each enemy hit

[grim jay]

With more envenom cleave damage as the focus

[slow marsh]

Just make CT dot shorter with a bit higher damage and then make fan do increased damage based on however many bleeds / poisons are on targets assa AoE saved you're welcome next topic thank you

[oak sky]

i remember this convo

[slow marsh]

It's deja vu fr

[grim jay]

Improved Fok damage is so lame

[warm parcel]

I just dont want assa aoe to feel like 57 different plates spinning

[runic hinge]

So no more envenom or poison bomb in aoe?

[warm parcel]

While I could just play sub and press 2 buttons

[slow marsh]

Says who

[runic hinge]

Idk

[slow marsh]

Poison bomb is a poison and envenom helps apply poisons so you would still cycle them

[grim jay]

Might aswell make sin a straight up ST playstyle with "echoing" damage from the Main target

[runic hinge]

I’m just guessing. Like if we don’t get some talent tree changes then you’re just never playing ap ever

[gaunt moat]

Do you mean AoE or cleave?
AoE-wise we also just press 2-3 buttons.
But cleaving right now is atrocious.

[slow marsh]

Too many people want sin AoE to play like sub aoe and it's cringe

[warm parcel]

no

I just dont want sin aoe to be a fucking mess when its not rewarding

and theres specs like sub and feral

[slow marsh]

Nobody wants that

[subtle tundra]

Oi

Get out

[grim jay]

[warm parcel]

even if you look at IC alone

even that design fails in my eyes for one simple reason

You have to wait for mobs to gather

sitting there in stealth isnt cool

accidently knocked out?

unluck

[slow marsh]

It's like a billion yd range you really don't have to wait long at all

[warm parcel]

Im melee I go in I ooga booga

[gaunt moat]

And worst of all - tanks that chain pull when mobs are at 1%.

[royal lantern]

tbf, difference bettwen stealth and no re-stealth is not big

[oak tangle]

IC is also a temporary stop gap to the whole garrote multidotting problem

[warm parcel]

okay that doesnt take away the fact it just simply feels bad

[serene fossil]

This is golden

[warm parcel]

Feral does have the same

[slow marsh]

Should IC be a capstone as is? No. Is it the reason we suck at aoe? No it's not next

[warm parcel]

2 targets just slightly apart from each other and you wanna rake

but you have to sit instealth waiting for them to be in double rake range

or you have one emp rake and 2nd target with no rake

or 2 weak rakes

it just feels awkward

[grim jay]

Did I suddenly

Enter dreamgrove

[warm parcel]

no

#assassination has talked about feral and priest past 10 hours

[oak tangle]

i wanted to learn feral, i joined druid discord, openned up the feral channel, and it was just pictures of people's cats

[gaunt moat]

That's something I don't really get how can it be true.
from stealth every target takes increased garrote damage + silence + damage reduction.

[oak sky]

chain pulls arent so bad it lets you keep energy going into the next pack

[slow marsh]

Fyi you usually don't rake from stealth on a big pull anyways cuz you're trolling your tank by stunning a mob when he's gathering stuff

[runic hinge]

That channel is more OT than here

[oak tangle]

idk pics of cats is pretty on topic for feral chat

[oak sky]

i gave you a fact and you reacted with cringe

[warm parcel]

I just hop on to the last mobs to rake

but sure rake has its own share of issues

slowing mobs too cause pvp

[slow marsh]

Yeah

Not really a fair comparison is my point

[oak tangle]

whispyr explained it in a video i saw the other day, and it's because the garrote talent now applies to all garrotes not just stealth ones

[slow marsh]

Although the overall sentiment that feral is a better bleed spec is true

[warm parcel]

My point was theres abilities that just feel like youre standing around waiting instead of getting to use them to their potential

I dont find sitting in stealth waiting for IC range before I can start cool

[oak sky]

more specifically shrouded suff does

[slow marsh]

Yes but ic is 99% not one of them

[oak sky]

subterfuge im pretty sure still only applies from stealth

[warm parcel]

Literally first pull of ruby

One big mob you could be hitting for 5+ seconds

[oak sky]

imp garrote

[warm parcel]

instead you afk in stealth

[oak sky]

not subterfuge

[slow marsh]

You wait for one or two globals for IC if you're waiting longer your tank sucks balls idk

[warm parcel]

or do you just not get IC from stealth

[oak tangle]

yeah but some of the power has been shifted to general garrote, and they removed the flat damage

[warm parcel]

bro

[gaunt moat]

so what, tooltip is just wrong?

[warm parcel]

no way your tank magically picks up all of rubys first pull in 2 globals

if it aint bdk

[oak sky]

not this one, shrouded suffocation

[warm parcel]

Oh you want to combine 2 packs in HOV?

[oak tangle]

that talents utility is pretty pog won't argue that.

I also play nelf, so chain pulling barely affects me

[warm parcel]

better sit in stealth :)

[gaunt moat]

okay, that's true. that works.
but you miss iron write and

[slow marsh]

If you care that much just run dance

[oak sky]

yes losing iron wire sucks, but you have vanish and that also doesnt matter every pack

[royal lantern]

its more about doing a proper chainpull (aka the pack is at like 40-30% hp when the next one gets dragged in, you have rupture on all enemys running and the full SoB+energy benefits and can do everything faster) VS the normal pug tank that pulla pack by pack or pulls a new pack when the current one is at 2% hp (THAT fucks you over and is not chainpulling)

[warm parcel]

ah nice so when there is a design issue, the fix is to just change around it

[oak sky]

and there have been sims done on losing imp garrote value and it always comes out to be a pretty small thing

[warm parcel]

instead of trying to provide feedback maybe something isnt cool

👍

[slow marsh]

When the feedback is kind of silly and not actually productive yeah

[warm parcel]

I see

cause gameplay feel totally is meaningless

[slow marsh]

It's like the ding dongs that think that making IC 30s would somehow save sin aoe

[warm parcel]

not like every outlaw rogue in the universe quit simply due to one change

[brazen zodiac]

iceblades

[warm parcel]

and what was that change?

oh right

[brazen zodiac]

u best get to bed or ima make u play some league

[warm parcel]

gameplay feel

[brazen zodiac]

with these 3 am shenanigan's

[slow marsh]

I am in bed

[brazen zodiac]

im so tired

plz let me sleep for more than 2 hours lord jesus savior blizzard riot games anyone

[slow marsh]

🙏

Amen

[gaunt moat]

Alright, just to be clear, I wasn't saying chain-pulling is bad.
It's bad the way most tanks do it and don't allow us to stealth.
at that point, it's a big minus for not starting fight from stealth.

[slow marsh]

Ambush

[warm parcel]

just slap +7% to assa we good

need no changes

[royal lantern]

the blizzard way

[gaunt moat]

you know that's what's gonna happen

[royal lantern]

% buffs, now shut up

[slow marsh]

That's what we're getting already with tier

[brazen zodiac]

nothing will happen

💃

[gaunt moat]

but it's gonna be 3%

[slow marsh]

Tier is literally bandaid for sin

Is tragic but expected

[oak tangle]

what does it bandaid

[brazen zodiac]

🩹

[gaunt moat]

that people are still playing sin

[oak sky]

chain pulling does imply a lack of stealth tho

[slow marsh]

Literally what everyone has complained about - aoe

[royal lantern]

all 7 of us

[oak sky]

since it involves pulling mobs before the pack dies

[oak tangle]

does it though

[slow marsh]

How does it not

Huh

[gaunt moat]

if you chain-pull properly, at 20-30%, it's great. everyone wins.
if you chain pull at 1%, assassination wanna cry.

[oak tangle]

didn't realise 33% more damage on our CT equals roughly 20k+ damage

[slow marsh]

Rupture?

Nature damage flat bonus?

[grim jay]

Its not a small gain

[gaunt moat]

A little more than 33% with our 4p

[oak tangle]

let's assume a 150k aoe, 40% being from nature, dm on a 2 min, so 1/4 uptime on that 40%
a whopping 4% buff

that's 6k there.

so rupture and CT's 33% more needs to equal the other 14k+

[slow marsh]

[gaunt moat]

Don't confuse me with math

[grim jay]

Sim DS with modifier on rupture and CT

[oak tangle]

add into that we will be losing septic wounds

you call it bandaid i call it about a flat even

[grim jay]

It wont be even

I'm pretty sure 😁

[slow marsh]

[gaunt moat]

It sure sounds like they gotta be cookin' some change to CT and/or rupture huh

[oak sky]

[runic hinge]

Yo pass that cope

[oak tangle]

we're exchanging 20% bleed damage on 66% of our damage

for 33% on 21% of our damage

you can send your emotes at me all you want, the set doesnt add up

[slow marsh]

Yes we're exchanging a 4pc bonus for a 2pc bonus you got it

Nailed it right on the head

[oak tangle]

yeah and the 4 pc we are getting is a 4% increase

[slow marsh]

You should be head TC with all the TC you got going seems legit to me

[oak tangle]

not sure if you're aware of how maths works, but in aoe 1/5 of 66 is more than 4

[slow marsh]

I don't know how math works at all, it's all you sir carry on. I cede to your greatness as well as your aptitude for numbers and theory crafting

[gaunt moat]

ngl memz, you're kind of a nerd ❤️

[subtle tundra]

We are losing 4pc and that is gonna suck

[gaunt moat]

And i envy your math knowledge.

[oak tangle]

i just have a logs parse infront of me, and people wanna spout what the think a set tier will do without actually evaluating it

[oak sky]

every other spec not losing their 4p:

[subtle tundra]

When it carries our aoe

It matter 😦

[runic rover]

What aoe

[subtle tundra]

Stop with personal attacks

[brazen zodiac]

yeah seriously

[vernal adder]

Notter big poopy pants

[gaunt moat]

Listen, I'm extremely hung over. That's a real possibility.

[brazen zodiac]

u should drink water

[vernal adder]

GL

[gaunt moat]

thanks for reminder. gulps

[subtle tundra]

Fuck drinking

It's not worth it

I have plenty fun when I'm sober aswell

[brazen zodiac]

drinking bad

👎

[gaunt moat]

I dunno, it was fun at the time

[subtle tundra]

I know my problem

I ask people to give me drinks

So I end up overdrinking

[brazen zodiac]

solution

drink water instead

[gaunt moat]

I went with a friend that kept buying me drinks, so yeah hah

[brazen zodiac]

ask them for shots of water that real good shit

[subtle tundra]

I don't drink when I have to buy them

Overpriced shit

[gaunt moat]

I agree

especially where i live

[grim jay]

Gotta buy Whiskey, thats atleast something you drink for the taste

[gaunt moat]

I don't drink beer. but beer is like 11$ here.

[subtle tundra]

I have only drank cheap whisky

[subtle tundra]

Wtf

[gaunt moat]

wait, maybe it's a bit less.
but cocktails cost even more than that for sure.

[subtle tundra]

I don't drink beer cause of the calories

Man my glory beer days

MAN

I miss beer

Best drink

[grim jay]

0.5 ltr are 4.5 Euro here.

[slow marsh]

Beer gross and you can feel the calories going down your throat

[subtle tundra]

Pub place or corner shop

[slow marsh]

Whiskey tastey and makes you loosen up

[grim jay]

Johnnie Walker Blue Label

[grim jay]

Pub

[subtle tundra]

Cause beer is 3 euros at any place to eat/drink

[grim jay]

Its 4 in restaurants and 4.5 in bars here most of the time

[gaunt moat]

sin chat resorted to alcholism.

[subtle tundra]

Well thankfully most of the time we meet up at someones house to get fucked

🥰

[grim jay]

I only meet up at houses to fuck aswell

I'm just oldschool like that

[subtle tundra]

But last time I drank I vomited while passed out and now I'm scared

People gave me too many drinks

[steel ridge]

What the fuck

[balmy condor]

Dslice: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8qsJad1CWzKnpgYV4ebLVQ

Single Target: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ayL7cktfdzzpPuMAqe77Do

I'm still double checking numbers, and the 4 piece implementation is like, the most basic of shit imaginable (it's just a passive aura buff to all abilities that's roughly equal to the bonus/uptime of bonus applied to an estimated amount of nature damage we do, but the 2 piece should be fairly accurate)

[gaunt moat]

grabs a bottle

[subtle tundra]

Yay so currently we lose dps by swapping tier sets

Awesome

[balmy condor]

in single target yeah

[subtle tundra]

And barely gain in dsloce

[balmy condor]

but again, the 2 piece is better

and the 4 piece is a super rough estimate

so

[steel ridge]

😂

[balmy condor]

don't take the 4 piece thing as gospel

[brazen zodiac]

nice sims

💃

[steel ridge]

Question is, do we lose set the moment 10.1 launches?

[balmy condor]

but I mean they're roughly comparable bonuses anyway, right now it's 20% poison, 20% bleed, and the next tier is 33% bleed, to rupture/ct, and 40% nature, but on a 1/4 uptime, out of cooldowns

[steel ridge]

or does it stay active for hc clear

[balmy condor]

so really it's just kinda the same shit

shuffled around to another thing

[gaunt moat]

@balmy condor Does the API use CT in ST for those test?

[balmy condor]

it should stay active

no

[steel ridge]

Then getting tier is a novelty

[spark scaffold]

In 5+ targets how long would you want the targets to live to be worth refreshing the initial carnage rupture over an envenom?

[balmy condor]

depends on if you need to snipe or your energy levels

[spark scaffold]

Assuming no energy problems

[balmy condor]

4+5xdashingscoundrel+6xsaturatedenergy

so if you're playing DTB, no energy problems, you're looking at 15 seconds min

[oak tangle]

I did the numbers in a spreadsheet in one of my own parses, and all be it not optimal it would be a 1.2% loss for me on council

[steel ridge]

They might aswell just keep the current tierset +26 levels

[spark scaffold]

And for my knowledge when you say snipe a mob you mean rupturing a dying target for energy?

[balmy condor]

yes

[spark scaffold]

Got it, thank you very much

[balmy condor]

np

[grim jay]

Think the 4p is weird anyways actually. Wonder if it would make a huge difference if the dmg amp is active immediately on DM. Probably tho, since thats where you use most env and you would get buffed duplicated 2p on rup and ct tho

[balmy condor]

it would be crazy if it were active on dm

our burst would be ridiculous

[tacit otter]

in rogue terms or in general?

[balmy condor]

in general

our burst is already pretty good

[grim jay]

UH levels of ridiculous ?

[balmy condor]

no

but getting there

[grim jay]

Would still be way better design even if they nerfed it a bit

[slow marsh]

I personally would rather it be giga like now and keep how it works

[grim jay]

Dont think you get full value out of it in the current state on m+ either

[gaunt moat]

it would not be far off from adding vandetta into DM if that was the case

[slow marsh]

It's at least interesting and makes for a change of gameplay flow

[balmy condor]

it would add 30k dps during our burst

bout 16%

[grim jay]

How exactly does it do that

[slow marsh]

If makes nature damage do bigger number after DM expure

[balmy condor]

cause your gameplay would go from burst during dm to "why are my envenoms hitting harder outside of deathmark"

[royal lantern]

so then it would be 40% of a unholy dk burstwindow?

[earnest remnant]

"why am i bursting more outside of cds"

[slow marsh]

And then you shiv into sepsis after DM and burst for like 300k

[grim jay]

Yeah but... you wouldnt play any different except for maybe saving tb and tea for after DM

[oak sky]

lingering shivdows

[balmy condor]

everyone hyping up double amp poison in deathmark

10.1 four piece rolls into the club

[earnest remnant]

xD

[grim jay]

Or am I missing smth ?

[earnest remnant]

lowkey turning into a sub rogue huh

[balmy condor]

yeah, it doesn't change shit

the most "gameplay change" we would get is like maybe you have to play sepsis now

[oak sky]

idk why people are coping that it does

sepsis

[balmy condor]

but that's the tier bonus causing a talent change that causes a gameplay change

which is like

3 layers deep

[oak tangle]

@balmy condor would there be a window of time in DM where it would be worth it to cast KB so that it gets enough stacks from DM poisons, but then ticks with the 40% extra

[balmy condor]

inherently it provides no difference

[oak sky]

we need sepsis to never be viable so it gets removed at some point

[balmy condor]

sure

it would be a very small window

[oak tangle]

potentialy to make it playable?

[balmy condor]

but why not

lmao no

[grim jay]

Dunno, DTB benefits from 4p aswell, so no way KB gets anywhere near it except with other changes

[slow marsh]

With the increased agility numbers in 10.1 ambush will become better and so VV will become better and combined with the 4p we can take shadow dance so that after DM we dance to do ambush with the nature amp and do massive damages per second

[grim jay]

[royal lantern]

yes

or no

[balmy condor]

why did you make me read that

[royal lantern]

bless you

[slow marsh]

Why did you read that

Honestly

Your fault

[grim jay]

@balmy condor but... will rupture be stronger for sin than sub with next tier ?

[balmy condor]

probably not

[royal lantern]

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA

ofc not

[slow marsh]

Imagine sin rupture doing more than sub

[royal lantern]

rupture is a Finisher, ofc its better on sub than on assa

[balmy condor]

sub rupture is easily 70-100% stronger right now

[royal lantern]

[slow marsh]

Yeah buddy not gonna happen

[earnest remnant]

[balmy condor]

and we're going from a +20% bleed tier set to a +33% rupture tier set

so

it'll need some more

like a regular sub rupture

is competitive with a deathmark rupture

[royal lantern]

i love how assa rupture during DM is more or less the same dmg sub rupture does all the time

[grim jay]

But with nature damage amps for the rupture part of 4p

[royal lantern]

[grim jay]

On the other hand sub rupture gets stronger aswell since more symbols uptime

[slow marsh]

Don't worry guys we'll get some talent changes to make our rupture do +150% damage instead of just +50%

It was just a typo on bloody mess

[balmy condor]

yeah that's real fucking cope buddy, we lose 20% rupture damage, then gain 33% back, and then we get 40% gain on the 33% gain, 25% of the time

[earnest remnant]

do remember we lose 12% rupture with new tier set

[balmy condor]

hey, our deathmark ruptures will beat that

holy poggers

[grim jay]

Our insane scaling is the part you forgot

[stiff geode]

opens 10.0.7 patch notes
CTRL+F
types rogue

Fixed issues with inaccurately displayed Rogue combo points and Arcane Mage charges.honestly I thought they already fixed it?

[gaunt moat]

Why are you sad, it's fixed!

[stiff geode]

The sadness is that's the only mention of rogue 😂

[grim jay]

It actually broke me on a personal level

So its good

[slow marsh]

What if we exsang our DM so that our ER exsanged rupture can clip into the 40% nature dam amp will we be giga then?

[oak tangle]

so losing 12% on sub, and gaining 15% on sin. 27% swing :/

[stiff geode]

yes it is good and was such a horrible bug, but it appeared to have been fixed for awhile now?

[grim jay]

Its less in total bcs more Symbols tho, no ? 😁

[balmy condor]

it was fixed with a weakaura

[grim jay]

Still have it, even with the wa sometimes

Dunno why

[gaunt moat]

After memz analysis and whispyr's sim data
I'm fully in the hopium camp, that there will be a CT or rupture change coming.

[balmy condor]

idk

[gaunt moat]

it just.. has to.

[balmy condor]

the numbers seem ship-able as they are

they could just release as is

[oak tangle]

shippable to match current sin though

[stiff geode]

🤔 maybe I've been gimped for awhile without even realizing it lol, but man it sure felt fixed

[balmy condor]

and it would just be a meh tier bonus

not trash

not great

[royal lantern]

(they will)

[balmy condor]

just meh

[grim jay]

Dont forget the scaling with the higher gs

[slow marsh]

Meh. Sounds about right for assa

Lock it in

[royal lantern]

ultimate scaling is only unlocked when we can play dracthyr rogue

[grim jay]

True

[oak tangle]

darkthyr rogue equivalent is to make dm treat the target as if it's 35% hp or below

[grim jay]

Dwarf rogue is close tho, because as nature takes its course I would get scales on my eyes to prevent me from receiving permanent damage

[gaunt moat]

I'm just wondering, did anyone keep track of how other classes tier sets affect overall?
Is it kind of in-line with current power level or a boost

[balmy condor]

honestly aside from the "wtf why am I doing more damage out of my cooldowns" and it not fixing anything

tier kinda whatever

[balmy condor]

there's a ton of tier sets that are like 0.1% dps estimated

[royal lantern]

resto druid set is the most hilariously overtuned shit ever

idk how that left the drawing board

[slow marsh]

Does blizz have access to all the apl stuff you guys do

[balmy condor]

it's all open source

[oak tangle]

they missing the fundamental part of what makes it useful though

[balmy condor]

they have as much access as anyone else

[slow marsh]

I've seen a lot of the other classes tier sets revolve around buttons they don't even push currently. Which could go either way depending on apl stuff is why I ask

[grim jay]

I mean

They seemingly dont look at sims much

[balmy condor]

idk bout that

[grim jay]

Else how would you explain balancing rn

[slow marsh]

They seemingly don't but they do

Tier sets are pretty spot on with their estimated %s

[oak tangle]

they seemingly don't know how to do their "own" sims

[buoyant herald]

Mmm there are a bunch of tier sets that interact with specific optional talents

[spark scaffold]

How do they approach raid tuning even

[gaunt moat]

missed "simmingly" opportunity.

[spark scaffold]

If they wouldnt do their own simms

[oak tangle]

they go off testing and class tc's

[grim jay]

I mean if both tier sets are 8% but one spec sims 106k and the other 88k, its not that great 😁

[slow marsh]

Correct but they've stated multiple times that they would then balance based on spec rather than the bp

It's complete BS but that's what they say

[oak tangle]

like this tier, they knee jerked at sin doing well in early heroic. and then proceeded to buff other specs above where they nerfed sin from

[grim jay]

But they obviously dont, thats why I dont think they look at it much. Maybe tier and spec are different people tho

[spark scaffold]

Raszageth shield is currently 1/3 of what it was at the start, in regards to tuning

[slow marsh]

Tier and specs are indeed different people from what we've seen in the past

They have item devs and then class / spec devs separately

Who are supposed to work in tandem

[oak tangle]

some tinfoil hat about certain classes sandbagging, and some compliments about rogue tc's being spot on with apl

[balmy condor]

I think reducing a team of like 200 devs to "they don't look at sims" is a bit generalized

there are devs that do

[grim jay]

Maybe they should let the tier people supervise the spec people

[balmy condor]

and there are devs that don't

[grim jay]

[balmy condor]

there's nothing telling them they have to look at sims

nor things telling them to avoid them

it's up to each of the devs individually to come up with data

[slow marsh]

You think they have 200 devs and yes that's what I took from that

[grim jay]

Yeah its a bit too wonky to only balance around sims anyways, but differences like rn arent great either

[balmy condor]

yes

devs that work on world of warcraft the game?

[slow marsh]

Yes just wow

[vestal wren]

I think its fair to assume that a big part of the dev team does not work on balancing

[oak tangle]

bliz is a multi dollar company, im sure they can afford 200 devs

[royal lantern]

170of them are bussy with druid and shadowpriest

[balmy condor]

I would say it's probably more than that after they hired all those devs in shadowlands

[grim jay]

In reality whispyr is lead dev on rogue and just likes to see US suffer

[slow marsh]

Na if whisp was a dev we wouldn't have these issues to begin with

[spark scaffold]

Biggest plot twist

[balmy condor]

yeah lead dev with enough time to yell at idiots in spec channels for 13 hours a day

[vestal wren]

if whisp was on the dev team

we would not have exsang

or if he wanted us to suffer

[balmy condor]

real

[spark scaffold]

[balmy condor]

that shit would've been gone in 7.1

[royal lantern]

multitasking

[vestal wren]

he would create a 2nd ability that is just like exsang

[grim jay]

Maybe you get payed for that aswell. With your amount of sleep, I think you could manage both

[gaunt moat]

It's really hard to believe that a different dev would develop a spec set bonus without working together with the dev who's assigned to design that spec.
if indeed it's two different people.
that would be completely backwards. even for blizzard.

[oak tangle]

can you give me a 50% chance on casting exsanguinate to proc an instant use

[slow marsh]

Is it all devs tho or QA included?

[oak tangle]

so i can exsang my exsang

[balmy condor]

they have QA?

[slow marsh]

Good point

[gaunt moat]

the 4 people who haven't quit yet

[vestal wren]

the qa def. tested NS and did say "works fine"

[slow marsh]

200 seems like a lot to me

[oak tangle]

QA was 10.0

[vestal wren]

keep in mind that the majority of the dev team is likely to work on assets

[balmy condor]

as far as I know, the QA team for rogue stuff this expansion has been realz and like maybe 2 people

[grim jay]

And top logs are a constant cycle of applying and double exsing for 6 mins straight

[slow marsh]

Yeah I mean even if you put 150 devs on assets it still seems like a lot but idk

[gaunt moat]

it's a very big game, and there are multiple branches in development.
200 sounds like a lot, but considering everything, and the rate of development. it makes sense.

[vestal wren]

also just to mention this

the dev that worked before realz on rogue

[slow marsh]

The only big studios I've worked with games didn't quite pan out how they wanted so I guess

[vestal wren]

did work on 12 specs

[slow marsh]

That's what I'm saying though

[gaunt moat]

wasn't he druid/mage/rogue?

[slow marsh]

They probably have 5 devs for all specs total

1 or 2 for items

[vestal wren]

I think they might have more, but keep in mind that classes are just a part of the entire dev cycle

[balmy condor]

even sephuz wasn't powerful enough to delete exsanguinate

[vestal wren]

you need to fix bugs, etc

[grim jay]

Maybe we should write a letter to realz on stuff before every Patch

[oak tangle]

you can exsang 10 times before it expires in a gcd XD

[slow marsh]

But like 193 devs for assets and bugs ? That seems like a lot still. The teams I've worked with have been like 20 tops

[balmy condor]

realz doesn't need a pen pal

he knows

he can read feedback

[vestal wren]

"dear realz, please remove exsanguinate,
thanks

• your rogue community"

[gaunt moat]

But again, it's multiple branches. and also classic and retail.

[slow marsh]

Realz probably hands tied from his boss(s)

[vestal wren]

you sure they all stayed on wow

[subtle tundra]

Pee

[grim jay]

But it would be alot more compressed and without bs 😁

[balmy condor]

I don't really wanna speculate what realz can/can't do or what he's doing for his 12 hour work days

he works hard

and that's what matters

[slow marsh]

Na I mean teams from other major studios

[grim jay]

The bugs sure did

[vestal wren]

agree, realz def. seems like he puts in effort

[slow marsh]

Realz has to deal with DH so he gets an auto pass

[oak tangle]

the better use would be a colation of what a majority want not the people who talk loudest though

[balmy condor]

I'm convinced realz doesn't sleep

[gaunt moat]

it's true, DH did in fact get patch notes.

[vestal wren]

bugs in wow just seem like a consequence of outdated tooling and a lagazy database

[balmy condor]

I go to bed and send that guy a message at like 4:30 in the morning

and I get a response

at like 4:45

dude is a lunatic

[subtle tundra]

Maybe he is eu

[balmy condor]

he's PST

like me

[subtle tundra]

True Chad

Cringe

[slow marsh]

All devs are pst duh

[subtle tundra]

Eu bis

[placid ermine]

who is this realz guy? is it dev responsible for rogue?

[slow marsh]

It's like a universal dev trait to work on pst time

[royal lantern]

whisp and realz are the same person confirmed

its just another voice in whisps head

[pastel onyx]

rogue/dh

[oak tangle]

i mean they may not have strict working hours. could be flexible like that, where as long as they get the work done they set their own schedule

[grim jay]

Yeah wasnt saying he doesnt work hard, just might make it easier for him to get what he needs already filtered

[balmy condor]

he's a dev, and did the 10.0 talent trees for rogue/dh

dev's get shuffled around a lot though

he very well might not be "the rogue dev" for like 10.2

[pastel onyx]

ye they sent him to do sp rework

[balmy condor]

for all we know, maybe

[oak tangle]

spoutlaw

[grim jay]

If whispyr went to bed and realz answered, maybe its whispyr sleepwalking

[placid ermine]

if he's the guy who designed rogue specs and demon hunter... wouldnt shadow priests want him to do the rework?

Both were very strong on release

[pastel onyx]

was he somehow connected to sp

before

or am i tripping

[balmy condor]

strong does not equal design

[slow marsh]

Strong is number fun is design (mostly)

[balmy condor]

any 3 IQ amoeba can put a 20% buff on random abilities until specs are strong

that's not a designer

[oak tangle]

80% of dh's probably had an aneurism from having to press more than 3 buttons

[grim jay]

But big numbers are fun aswell

[placid ermine]

well yea but when he designed talents at first did he also not do then umbers for all of that?

cuz if he did, he clearly had a bit bigger stat budget than other devs cuz all he designed was nerfed within few weeks

[balmy condor]

I don't think you understand how this works

they have tuning targets

they don't just add random numbers and say "yep looks good"

some devs were a bit too high once people optimized and logs came out

[vestal wren]

the problem is, tuning targets are often not hit

[balmy condor]

some were too low

[pastel onyx]

unless its warlock

[placid ermine]

thats what i mean by "he clearlyt had a higher stat budget"

[balmy condor]

but he doesn't

[oak tangle]

AP is calling

[balmy condor]

they get the same targets

[vestal wren]

bfa did show this well

[balmy condor]

rogue doesn't magically get a higher budget

[vestal wren]

legendary items had the tuning target of rogue legendary

[balmy condor]

realz doesn't get a higher budget

[slow marsh]

Imagine having a budget of numbers for tuning

Wouldn't that be nice

[balmy condor]

the original tuning on rogue overshot the singular budget

[vestal wren]

and yet somehow other classes managed to have legendary powers with 5 times the power

[oak tangle]

It would be interesting to see the distribution of spec population for the game as a whole

it inevitably leads in to effort and time spent on them

[vestal wren]

rogue is fairly low in popularity

[slow marsh]

I mean you can

You can get an idea with parses

[vestal wren]

i did for parses a week or so ago

[grim jay]

That would basically be useless data since most of the people do content thats irrelevant as far as balancing goes

[oak tangle]

yeah but that's realistically a small fraction

[vestal wren]

and rogue was 2nd last, only monk was weaker

you could do the same for m+ and pvp

and rogue would end up higher just because it is more popular in m+

[slow marsh]

I would say if you're actively playing the game you've probably cleared some normal bosses at some point and someone in that group was logging

[balmy condor]

you'd be surprised

[oak tangle]

because i don't see how a ret pally spriest druid etc, deserve a rework before survival. like it's clear that there is a minimal amount of survival players and therefore the effort is not spent there

[grim jay]

The relevant content for the decisions is a small fraction

[slow marsh]

I mean comparing ret to surv is hardly fair imo

[vestal wren]

i think there is a diffrence if we talk about what is popular in general

or what is popular in the end game content

[placid ermine]

i think part of that is because when you actually decide "i wanna play a hunter" you have in mind being a spec that attacks from a distance, survi being melee is still weird to me

[vestal wren]

because, realistically a lot of players don't engage with end game content a lot

[grim jay]

If you go by general popularity, over 90% of the people you include never see multiple heroic bosses

[slow marsh]

But like why would you ever balance around casual players

[oak tangle]

they give them the money

[slow marsh]

That's just balance 101

Casual players are casual they don't give a fuck

If we're talking like actual casuals

[vestal wren]

i think popularity in raid has to do with tuning

[grim jay]

Some dont know they are and cry the loudest

[vestal wren]

in m+ it is a mix of tuning but has a bias towards classes that did end up being strong/dominant in m+ for multiple seasons

[grim jay]

Even if rogue is overtuned it doesnt have high pop usually, no ?

[spark scaffold]

Its way easier to pinpoint an m+ meta than raid meta

[vestal wren]

for pvp you probably also don't have popularity strictly from tuning, rogue was even when it wasn't good rly popular

[slow marsh]

Raid is the only real endgame in wow until they change it so I don't get why you'd tune around farming world quests or primal farms or the weekly world boss

[vestal wren]

we had no tier rogue did beat everything by a noticable margin

so hard to say

rogue has the tendency to get nerfed quick if it is overtuned

[spark scaffold]

Cries in start of 10.0

[grim jay]

HFC rogue was pretty strong, dont know if I remember it wrong bcs I enjoyed it much back then tho

[vestal wren]

similar to whispyr mentioned, that the nerfs to rogue are a consequence of tuning targets

hfc rogue and mage was broken

its not pretty strong

it was "omegalul look at my damage" broken

[oak tangle]

It's a shame then that 10.0.5 reworks to ones that missed the tuning targets then overshot them

[placid ermine]

hfc made me swap to rogue actually

[grim jay]

I mean, should make the result even more clear? If it was broken it should have peak pop 😁

[vestal wren]

i think the tuning philisophy changed

instead of just straight up nerfing the top end

they start to buff the lower/middle end quite a bit over the top

[oak tangle]

i would be extremely suprised if mage and warrior didn't add up to over 50% of the total population

[grim jay]

They create new top ends that are further up, cant say i like it

[vestal wren]

yes

and i think the idea behind it is sound

[slow marsh]

If they made changes faster it'd be fine

[vestal wren]

better overshoot and tune down that do multiple 2% buffs that get you nowhere

[grim jay]

Yeah but they would need to tune down again

[placid ermine]

i prefer buffing specs that are worse to the level of top specs than nerfing top specs into oblivion

[grim jay]

Which they didnt

[vestal wren]

the problem is, it atm just creates a inconvenient enviroment

[terse orchid]

Impossible, with hunters being 50% already

[oak tangle]

yeah, it's just a kick (ha) in the teeth that we get nerfed from a perch that others get put on immediately after

[vestal wren]

i did not understand the last round of rogue nerfs, the one before that i kind of did based on statistics

i think the question in a balance discussion is how important balancing is in between patches

and how much blizz should allow specs to be OP

[oak tangle]

they should nerf for RWF and revert nerfs after

[vestal wren]

i mean ideally they would tune frequently

[spark scaffold]

Big balance changes after mid-patch are just bad though

[oak tangle]

realistically the rest of the wow population isn't that fotm

[vestal wren]

from what i know

and i can't confirm it because its more a "my brothers brother told me"

[grim jay]

So just because you arent in the RWF you dont need Balance

[placid ermine]

in ideal state of tuning, you would look at what's strong next tier, and know that if u pick a strong spec, it will remain strong, but if you pick a spec that's underperfoming, it will be buffed to be just as strong, it just may take more time

[vestal wren]

10.0.5 and 10.0.7 did not intend to shift balance noticable

only major patches like 10.1 is supposed to "shake up" balance

[placid ermine]

in the current state of tuning, im afraid of picking top spec

[vestal wren]

i think there is a ripple effect to tuning

[oak tangle]

not what i meant, but a spec being better than another spec is a good thing, it will encourage people to try it. but realistically someone who plays a certain class will likely still main that. how many of us in here still play assassin regardless of the state of it

[grim jay]

Safe to pick hunter

[slow marsh]

Some get away with it

[vestal wren]

because people do pick spec/class depening on tuning

[slow marsh]

Enhance shaman for example

[spark scaffold]

Imo balance changes should realisticly come either a bit after rwf or after hof is over, but nothing inbetween or during rwf

[grim jay]

Still playing it doesnt mean you have a good experience or atleast as good as it should be

[fierce sigil]

Does somebody Know a Little Which Rogue specc might be the best for 10.0.7 or better 10.1?

[vestal wren]

and then more time someone spends on a overtuned spec, then more likely it is that blizz wants the spec to perform well

[placid ermine]

i actually considered swapping from my rogue this exp, was gonan do havoc but it was so broken, i thought nah, its gonna get nerfed to shit, i'll just go for what looks like A tier - assa rogue

[vestal wren]

it is also why for rogue assassination has probably the biggest fanbase

[placid ermine]

then assa gets more nerfed than havoc

[tacit otter]

if a stands for ass, okey

[vestal wren]

but for s1 DF outlaw probably took a big piece of the cake

[grim jay]

Balance is a big part of fun for everyone that atleast has a semi competitive mindset. Which should be most people that step into mythic or do high m+ and actually have relevance in tuning

[vestal wren]

outlaw was rly op for late s3/s4, df beta, pre patch and even on release

[slow marsh]

Then got nerf/buffed

[vestal wren]

so people did invest into learning it

[spark scaffold]

Assa was so broken on df releasw though

[vestal wren]

and outlaw got nerfed

[royal lantern]

my friend showed me the OFFICAL WOWHEAD TIERLIST

all 3rogue specs A tier with havoc and arcane mage

unholy/frost/bm B tier

arms c tier

tier lists btw

[vestal wren]

and even if it wasn't anymore the best option, people kept playing it

[royal lantern]

and thats the shit 99% form their opinion on

[vestal wren]

tuning establishes player pool more or less

is what i try to say

[spark scaffold]

Especially in the top 1%

[slow marsh]

Why do you think there so many sub rogues after SL

[vestal wren]

it is the same in all content

[grim jay]

It wasnt broken, it was strong. Aside from that compared to other classes now it wasnt even particularly strong anywhere. Thats the issue

[spark scaffold]

Which ends up influencing people because someone saw gingi say arcane is broken

[royal lantern]

thats why

[vestal wren]

the top end palys a certain combo because it is either assumed rly good or tuned over the top

[placid ermine]

it was broken on release, but other specs got buffed past what assa was originally

[spark scaffold]

Was simming over 100k on release iirc?

[oak tangle]

If you take tuning out of things, the issue is the reasons behind their changes or lacktherof. why does the majority of sin hate a large part of how the class currently plays, but for years there is no adjustment. why does sin get a knee jerk nerf where others get a buff to the same place. it's not about the tuning numbers. But rather why bliz makes these decisions. Is it player numbers? who knows

[grim jay]

Cant say I share your definition of broken

[vestal wren]

and players copy the top end, meta and perceptions form etc...

[royal lantern]

we cant even say that anymore because like 12specs do MORE dmg than pre-nerf assa lol

[grim jay]

No way it simmed over 100k on raidrelease

[placid ermine]

@grim jay it was broken because at the time we didnt know of bm hunter bow interaction, and hunter and arms wasnt buffed yet, unholy had several bugs, so nobody came even close to assa st

[vestal wren]

assassination was straight up 10% ahead of everything else early on

it just got nerfed too much after that

[placid ermine]

yep

[royal lantern]

and we have specs simming 110k rn btw

[slow marsh]

Assa was indeed broken on release don't cope

[royal lantern]

bm says hello

[spark scaffold]

Pretty sure it did sim like 102k

[vestal wren]

for 10.0.7 yes

[lyric cave]

Does sinx got chance this time?

[tacit otter]

allegedly the first sims were without the bow even equipped lol

[royal lantern]

thats less than a week fuu

[grim jay]

We have specs like 20+% ahead of some others

[slow marsh]

The first round of nerfs weren't a big issue. It was the continued nerfs that were silly looking back

[placid ermine]

thats crazy

[spark scaffold]

45 sec exsang

[grim jay]

And 10% ahead of the middle of the pack

[spark scaffold]

[grim jay]

On ST while they still do aoe

And sin was and is just ST

[vestal wren]

i know

[royal lantern]

hunters simming without bow and only 1embelishment and then cry about low dmg,blizz hates them

[slow marsh]

I know you and no not looking like it so far but we'll see

[spark scaffold]

Bm hunter loses a lot of st to spec into aoe

[vestal wren]

i saw a sim with 115k or so

so maybe 110k is too low

[grim jay]

And not knowing or keeping stuff from public isnt an excuse

[vestal wren]

25% ahead of rogue

[tacit otter]

90k is a way prettier number imo

[spark scaffold]

Was it frost dk

[royal lantern]

you are in the fking assa channel, what are you about, assa is losing even more st dmg for worse aoe with a long cd, and does way less st aswell

[spark scaffold]

Fuu

[vestal wren]

it was warlock

with pi

close to 120k

[slow marsh]

Of course it was

[spark scaffold]

Im not saying assa does more damage though, i was replying to this comment

[oak tangle]

another spec with sussy TC's

[vestal wren]

i don't think TC has much to do with it

[placid ermine]

even if not knowing isnt an excuse, it was still before hunter buffs that included bm, and pre-assa nerfs. It was common knowledge that assa fucks on st on release. The only thing that hurts is that there are now specs who fuck even harder who arent getting nerfed, while assa needed what was it? 4 nerfs? because of the state of st it had

[vestal wren]

even if the apl is not optimal, statistics show a good picture of balance

the main problem this tier is just how mixed the raid is

[oak tangle]

yeah but imagine if we went out and made guides telling everyone to exsang outside dm

[vestal wren]

it is not a mostly single target raid

we have more aoe/add heavy encounters

it is also the reason assassinaiton "sucks"

[grim jay]

It even loses out on ST enough tho

[vestal wren]

only to some few outliners

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[grim jay]

If every boss was ST I dont think perception would change much

[vestal wren]

Subtlety:

assassination

outlaw

[royal lantern]

i mean yes, thats the frustraiting Part

assa did to much st dmg in blizzards eyes, so they Nerf

not even 1week later they buff multiple specs to do MORE st dmg and thats it.......? like........what?

[vestal wren]

our 10.0.7 sims

[tacit otter]

i can get used to fuu being in assa channel:))

[vestal wren]

unless we find a better gem combo

haha, sry

[spark scaffold]

To be fair rogues were so strong during early raid basicly every guild ran 2

[oak tangle]

do you play much sin fuu? if not what would it take to make you 🙂

[spark scaffold]

Was usually 1 outlaw 1 assa or 2 assa

[slow marsh]

What's wrong with 2 rogues

[spark scaffold]

Hence the nerfs

[vestal wren]

92k with "bis"

[slow marsh]

Should be more 2 rogues comps

[vestal wren]

does not even beat other specs

[spark scaffold]

Not saying its anything wrong with 2 rogues

But blizz philosophy seems to kinda be 1 of each atm

[grim jay]

There are currently 4 specs that are far better on terros 3.5-7k on average

One is surv btw

[slow marsh]

Based on blizz philosophy you shouldn't have a rogue atm

You should just stack UH dk like it's CN

[placid ermine]

and bm hunter who is 20k better

[vestal wren]

yes

outliners

[grim jay]

Bm is the 7k

[spark scaffold]

You should anyway for atrophic poison

[oak tangle]

to be fair, tuning wise i don't have too much issue with ranged specs having higher damage, because "typically" they are far more punished by mechanics than melee

[placid ermine]

except for bm hunter who is never punished by anything

[vestal wren]

rogue has atrophic and numbing

[slow marsh]

Kekw

[vestal wren]

so you need 2 rogues in your raid

[grim jay]

To me 4 by that much is rather a trend 😁

[tacit otter]

in your spreadsheet it says new rings not bis, but do you have an idea if it could be better than a 415 aa ring? or is there a way to sim it myself?

[slow marsh]

Honestly just play gamba shaman they can get up to like 140k

[terse orchid]

Are they? It's not like they lose uptime from mechanics

[grim jay]

Gamba still lower Max than bm so no

On actual logs

[terse orchid]

Yeah but bm's are degens

[slow marsh]

@grim jay

[oak tangle]

obviously heavily dependant on the mechanics, but i would argue most allow melee to continue movement while pressing skills, whilst yes there are ways to play around mechanics for good ranged players, it is a skill expression to get that

[grim jay]

?

[slow marsh]

But yeah bm hunter can keybind their rotation to one button and fall asleep so you're still right

[vestal wren]

its only ~0.6% behind, so quite close actually

could be that it beats the aa ring

but the aa ring is probably the reason its not bis

[tacit otter]

ye thats what i was thinking, are there any plans these gems getting fully implemented?

[terse orchid]

But the skill expression argument extends moreso to melee dps in raids. It's a lot harder to maintain dps as melee on kurog during the fire dance than any other mechanic as ranged for instance

[placid ermine]

when you say AA ring do you mean auto attack ring or algathar academy ring

[vestal wren]

but lets compare

[tacit otter]

auto attacks

[slow marsh]

Anyone actually arguing that ranged is harder than melee is special in every sense of the word

[grim jay]

So every ranged is special

[night delta]

I'd wager this could be marginally better than the aa ring on fights where you lose melee uptime here and there (sennarth, dathea, rasz)

[oblique geode]

im sorry if this is not the place to ask but what is the difference between aoe and cleave damage ?

[placid ermine]

healer > melee > range > tank > fury warrior > bm hunter - this sohuld be a good difficulty chart?

[oak tangle]

hard vs punished mean seperate things

[vestal wren]

what i found out is that the ring effect loses value fast with more targets

so its more a single target option

[night delta]

understandable, since procs are likely rppm

[royal lantern]

uhhhh, i HAVE RANGED MECHANICS (1guy does them solo)

and need to CANCLE MY CASTS!!!!(they allready stand on the save spot and 70% of their kit is instant cast abilitys)

[night delta]

and the aa ring just, is in effect always

[vestal wren]

but give me a second

sim is running

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aqVp52NBpMRKphkBrstUsW

nope, aa ring beats it

[grim jay]

Doesnt feel like its intended that people dont use the ring tbf

[vestal wren]

the intention is that everyone uses it

[tacit otter]

still beats it wow

[vestal wren]

also keep in mind we still miss a lot of gems

[oak tangle]

cleave is probably best described as 2-3 targets, aoe is 4+

[placid ermine]

did u try it with fire stones?

[night delta]

aren't the most direct damage gems implemented ?

like the direct dmg procs etc

[vestal wren]

yes, most dps gems are implemented

but the "procs on procs" miss mostly

[oblique geode]

😮 i'm reading through the Faq but i always thought of hitting multiple targets as aoe 🙂

[night delta]

oh alright

[vestal wren]

so maybe there are some hidden gems / combinations

that are rly good

[grim jay]

Are the gem ranks implemented?

[vestal wren]

for now, the gems seem to be the best for outlaw

its just item level, so yes

[oak tangle]

target counts change for each spec where the definition actually sits, so the faq should define when those abilities should be altered

[oblique geode]

yea i read it in the Double Capstone Mythic+ section 🙂

[tacit otter]

i just hoped i could atleast get some dps from the rings, but ty for the answer:)

[vestal wren]

the list of what is implemented

not all of them are relevant for us

outlaw gets the most from the stones due to the modifiers they can apply (e.g. GS) as well as the lower baseline damage they do

basically a static amount of damage, that is even amped is stronger for them than for sub/sin

[terse orchid]

We talking raid or m+? Because I'd put tank at the top spot in M+. Raid is easy all around I suppose (never tried healing)

[pastel onyx]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz / Dark: http://tiny.cc/xdu1vz

[vestal wren]

getting outlaw to 89k is quite nice

closes the gap a bit

[oblique geode]

how come kingsbane isnt playable in raid ? it does look good 😮 or am i missing something

[vestal wren]

(was on ~86k before)

kingsbane is too weak

[tacit otter]

was 3% right? that sounds like a good increase

[vestal wren]

yes around 3%

3.2% exact iirc

[night delta]

do all stones have their procrate identified for the sims ?

[vestal wren]

(unless we find a better combination)

[royal lantern]

no

because it depeens on fights

there is no "X is harder than Y" and people that say it is are total clowns

[vestal wren]

the list above does show what is implemented

[royal lantern]

like, some fights are hard af for healers, and on the next fight you have trouble staying awake

[vestal wren]

i think you could argue for difficultly

[night delta]

yeah sorry I meant the implemented ones, their procrate is based on direct data right

[tacit otter]

i believe, the 0.5 % increase is in reach

[vestal wren]

yes, spell data are used where we have them

[royal lantern]

this raid has so many sleeper fights for healers, its insane

[night delta]

ok

[vestal wren]

maybe, hard to predict

i think the gems ended up already better than assumed

[oak tangle]

fuu talking about outlaw in the assass channel XD

[vestal wren]

i am just comparing all 3^^

[oak tangle]

all good not stressing, just loving the community

[night delta]

For the Echoing Thunder Stone, is the "electrical" charge in the description based on the amount of movement (i.e do we have to shuffle now ?)

or is it "procs when in movement every x seconds" or something ?

[vestal wren]

we are speedy boys

moving around

[night delta]

don't like the sound of having to Q E Q E Q E -ing for dmg

[grim jay]

If you arent constantly moving already, you didnt graduate to real rogue yet

[placid ermine]

not having e and q as keybinds WutFace

[grim jay]

That aswell

Q is DM and E is ambush

[night delta]

i'm left-hand partially handicapped, can't coordinate well past using move keys

[placid ermine]

q is feint

wouldnt then having more accessible good keybinds be recommended even more?

[grim jay]

Do you use q and e as a and d or their base function ?

[night delta]

q e for single-key strafing

[placid ermine]

did you unbind a nd D then?

[night delta]

since my impairment means i have to click a hefty sum

[vestal wren]

just activate auto walk

[night delta]

a and d for turning

[vestal wren]

and then try to not fall off

[grim jay]

I only use A and D together with holding rightclick, not sure if that is an option for you

[placid ermine]

same

[night delta]

I do that only when i'm not in a pinch

I have basically my rotation on muscle memory clicking, urgent spells on mouse side buttons (kicks, defensives etc), and yeah, movement on left hand

[jade abyss]

we will be good next tier ?

[placid ermine]

maybe im overstepping a bit here, but you said youre handicapped in your left hand, it sounds weird to me that you would put more strain on your left hand by delegating something as easily achievable as turning with your right hand to be done by left hand too

[night delta]

cuz if i mouse turn I can't be clicking my rotation :p

[vestal wren]

if you mean we as "rogue", probably yes

[placid ermine]

youre

clicking

your rotation?

[night delta]

not ideal for most, but it's the best setup i can come up with own limitations

[tacit otter]

random question: i know your a TC but do you play the game much? raid / m+?

[night delta]

going mouse for left hand would be an utter shitsow and I can just barely move correctly with my left hand as is

so most spells are click click click

[grim jay]

Have you tried a mouse with many sidebuttons? Had a onehanded guildmate rolling with that

[night delta]

I'm currently at 7 buttons on my mouse

[placid ermine]

im at 12 side + 2 extra and 3 basics

[night delta]

I've pondered going for the heavy 12 or something button mouse but for now that's where i'm at

[vestal wren]

most of the TCs raid on a higher level, not everyone. I personally raid more casually.
My Guild raids myhtic but nowhere near any high world rank

[placid ermine]

altho for some reason i think razer counts that as 18 or 19

[night delta]

honestly clicking is so ingrained in my muscle memory I barely ever miss a beat

[placid ermine]

i guess NA math

[grim jay]

Redragon has a 18 Button mouse and you could use one of your modifiers to double up

[vestal wren]

so the answer to your question: it depends ^^

[tacit otter]

ye im following the other TCs on twitch etc. i mean rn theres nothing to do anyway ^^

[placid ermine]

@vestal wren so to give us a better idea, what is your current mythic progress and m+ score?

[vestal wren]

[placid ermine]

[spice spire]

Also your date of birth, social security number, location

[oak sky]

I have a very high io score (2000)

[night delta]

I'm not an "all-or-nothing" guy so getting high blue / low purple %ilvl parses with my setup has me satisfied with it

[subtle tundra]

I did break 2.9k score yesterday

Do I qualify as God gamer

[oak sky]

Ur really not playing are you

[oak tangle]

god'er gamer than me

[spice spire]

I also have a high score (2.6k)

[vestal wren]

you forgot credit card number

[grim jay]

Yeah, but maybe comfortwise. Do you use modifiers?

[subtle tundra]

🫡

[spice spire]

[oak sky]

Time for bedge enough shit stirring

[subtle tundra]

I like learning the dungeons on assa. I'm still learning and have to play sub

[oak tangle]

just make a 418 dagger and pass on all other loot, easy high ilvl parses XD

[night delta]

Modifier is to switch to focus-casting on my interrupts etc

which are all on my mouse side

[placid ermine]

and grieftorch heroic

Prayge for inting teammates

[oak tangle]

or sac yourself immediately after your cd's are finished and call for a brez as you are dying

[grim jay]

I have shift + buttons for cc macros and Alt + buttons for more damagespells

[uncut echo]

Something something months away

[grim jay]

Best comes last

And the last will be the first

-> late patchnotes -> #1 dps

[gaunt moat]

There's still 5 days until patch. It's not too late for buff

[pastel onyx]

hey dont be so sad

u will get

a -0.6% new ring

at least based on current available stones sims

[shrewd night]

[royal lantern]

[uncut echo]

We're not getting touch in .7

We're getting fixed in .1

[pastel onyx]

[humble ginkgo]

outlaw *

[raven knoll]

pretty much, never go sub tho, resist

or outlaw

[uncut echo]

Leave this sacred space

[subtle tundra]

Sure girl

You go cope

While I'm real

[uncut echo]

Uh huh

[subtle tundra]

11.0 is our expac