Makes sense tbh
#assassination
spice spire
sudden canyon
i dont mouseover apply garrote/rupture so i end up targeting the target and if i see the garrote/rupture weakaura is shining (empowered in any way) i just dont re-apply. I think having that info on nameplates would be rather annoying
spare crow
cev do u have a plater mod that highlights exsanguinated bleeds?
I'm looking for something similiar but I can't find anything
unreal bear
cev do u have a plater mod that highlights exsanguinated bleeds?
i might have one for you, one sec
nvm its a weakaura sorry
limber lion
cev do u have a plater mod that highlights exsanguinated bleeds?
No like I said, kinda useless on AoE and just brings in extra clutter
And on single target/2T you look at weakauras instead.
spare crow
alright, ty
spare crow
limber lion
I use Luxthos' engine for my exsanguinated gar/rup weakauras.
limber lion
it's future proofed for when they remove exsang
A lot of wowhead posts recently, surely there's gonna be one that talks about the removal of exsang. Surely.
spice spire
strange python
A lot of wowhead posts recently, surely there's gonna be one that talks about th...
Just like we'll be buffed for 10.0.7
burnt star
I dunno about that. Our dev has been pretty silent lately
We are getting the on launch shaman treatment
royal lantern
uncut echo
We got our trees before any real feedback was given and alt f4d out
spice spire
It was changed a bit.
I mean rogue was in a very good spot to begin with.
Design I’d give a B+, room for improvement such as not making us choose one way, and giving us a better cleave option than AP, but it was honestly pretty decent.
Follow up is a D-
Only reason it’s not an f, is at least one issue was fixed (not being able to take another capstone with DTB)
Could I do better? No shot 💀
Just hoping they’re cooking something good for 10.1.
uncut echo
Great way of putting it
I do think the silence is deafening though, and I (really) hope it's pointing at a fundamental rework of how the class handles more than one target.
spice spire
Same here buddy
steel geyser
In m+ how do you approach a big fortifed pack that last for say, 1min ? do you hold vanish for carnage ?
Not planning of playing sin myself in m+ but curious about the theory
spice spire
If it’s 1min, yeah I’d hold it.
If it’s 1 min and some change, you’d definitely hold
steel geyser
Yeah I guess most pack dont last 1min
spice spire
Yeah I was trying to think of a gonzo pack you could even pull for 1m
steel geyser
is there a written treshold for rupture number other than "until ur good for energy" ?
spice spire
But say you chain pull which is pretty common, I hold
5ish? Probably 8ish now given the build capping at 24% main stat gain
arctic current
how bad did assa get nerfed? I was kinda keen to play it again
sudden canyon
does subterfuge just completely break nightstalker?
balmy condor
nightstalker completely breaks nightstalker
sudden canyon
the spell id for the stealth u get when talented into subter is different.
balmy condor
correct
balmy condor
they didn't
nightstalker doesn't work regardless
its completely non-functional
subterfuge or not
sudden canyon
oh yea ur right the dmg isnt even amplified. it pops up on the tooltip tho. Goddam thats pretty sad if its been known and hasnt been fix. 2 whole ass talent points.
balmy condor
yeh
sub has been complaining about it since the expac launched
doesn't really matter for us at all
it would be wasted points even if they did fix it
we've been told that nightstalker is not meant to snapshot bleeds
so
might as well just be 2 dead points for assassination
until you take dance, 5 points later
7 points for dogshit
super pog
sudden canyon
tfw i like to play with dance here and there to liven up the marriage.
balmy condor
tfw i like to play with dance here and there to liven up the marriage.
I hope you like your 2 points 8% ambush damage during dance, if they fix it
cause that's basically what that talent is
sudden canyon
i wonder what they got going on under the hood because with Improved Garrote, you get a buff so you know when your garrote will be empowered but the garrote can be empowered without your player having that aura active like with sepsis.
balmy condor
it's hooked into the corresponding buffs from sepsis/dance
formal ore
is feral close to sin in playstyle? was thinking about trying it out but kinda lazy to level up for nothing
balmy condor
yeh
feral is sin but better
at least in aoe
they have every tool in aoe we've asked for since cata
formal ore
they have every tool in aoe we've asked for since cata
0 idea what those are i started playing sin this expac
tried going sub but its so fucking boring i couldnt do it
sudden canyon
I hope you like your 2 points 8% ambush damage during dance, if they fix it
w/ u saying they were intentional about removing snapshotting bleeds with NS, it now seems to me like they just broke it trying to work around their goals for the talent.
balmy condor
w/ u saying they were intentional about removing snapshotting bleeds with NS, it...
nice cope
they know it's broken
and just
don't fix it
thorn fjord
The have the fix but it breaks the class 🤣
oak tangle
oi the new gearing system looks good, but I don't know if gearing will feel as good now that it not tied to content rather just getting a high ilvl piece and making your bis equal it's ilvl
but bodes well for puzzle box next tier being still around
balmy condor
academy isn't in the pool next tier
loud light
part of the reason for dungeon rotation was explicitly having different loot pools
oak tangle
from what i read though that doesn't matter
loud light
I'm sure you'll only be able to upgrade "season 2" items
oak tangle
get a m0 puzzle and upgrade it to match your highest ilvl trinket
tacit otter
get a m0 puzzle and upgrade it to match your highest ilvl trinket
thats not how it will work at all in 10.1
sudden canyon
hope yall ready for loaded dice farm
tacit otter
you cant even upgrade a +2 item to max
balmy condor
yeah
sudden canyon
thats not even how it works on live. u cant upgrade m0 gear
balmy condor
in order to get an item to 441, you would need it drop at 428 first
and then upgrade
oak tangle
ahh yeah reading that bit now
echo cargo
What’s everyone’s main Wishlist for rogue trees 10.1
Buffs
dense herald
Exang removed, sbs removed, more build diversity
More ability to have a balance of ST and aoe like other classes
sudden canyon
+100 on exsang. Sbs should be faster like poisoned knife
oak tangle
is 402 the new m0 ilvl?
runic hinge
I want to play KB and DTB at the same time
oak tangle
if we making KB useable again, make it fun
formal ore
why does everyone seems to absolutely hate exang?
balmy condor
Because the gameplay is garbage and 95% of the community doesn’t understand how it works
sudden canyon
3 minute cd that you use every 4 minutes. you have to know to not overwrrite the bleeds or you just lose a 3 4 minute cd.
its also just boring.
formal ore
i agree with boring
but its so simple to work around it
but i do indeed find it boring too
its kinda lazy design
oak tangle
i mean it's antithetical to min maxing casts because you need to refresh outside pandemic msot of the time to ensure max duration on exsang
balmy condor
Also forces a strict order to your cooldowns
Cause you gotta max pandemic the dots first
Then exsang
Then Deathmark
And no other order
oak tangle
also holding cd's for 1 min sucks
brazen zodiac
xd
oak tangle
i'm always worried i'm going to miss my vanish'ed garrote due to a gcd, and exsang a non empowered one with lower duration
burnt latch
Make exsang deal all the damage of the current bleeds instantly and remove them (damage reduced by 90% in pvp) 
balmy condor
Make exsang deal all the damage of the current bleeds instantly and remove them ...
Or just delete it
burnt latch
Or just delete it
Or just delete it
oak tangle
make kingsbane = totm
formal ore
specially for new players it must be annoying as hell
strange python
I'd rather keep exsang and have sin buffed than lose exsang without buffs
balmy condor
specially for new players it must be annoying as hell
New players don’t even get that far, they hit exsang and wonder why their dots fell off
strange python
Not that we should have to pick but
formal ore
New players don’t even get that far, they hit exsang and wonder why their dots f...
lol
burnt latch
Also the aoe shiv shit should work like divine toll and keep sending shivs every 5 seconds
oak tangle
New players don’t even get that far, they hit exsang and wonder why their dots f...
when i started in BFA i thought exsang jsut double the tick rate, and i frequently was confused where my dots went
burnt latch
A spinning shiv machine
urban minnow
Did the upgrading gear cover alts?
burnt latch
That would also crank in ST
balmy condor
but thats just not reading your skills
I mean is it? Where does it say the dot duration is reduced as well
burnt latch
its balanced trust me
balmy condor
It just say they tick out faster
What “faster bleeds” means is completely up in the air
formal ore
What “faster bleeds” means is completely up in the air
ok fair
oak tangle
haste also makes your bleeds tick faster, but doesn't reduce duration
formal ore
haste also makes your bleeds tick faster, but doesn't reduce duration
it still does it ?
in game it just says energy regen and atack speed
balmy condor
It increases dot tick rates yes
oak tangle
hastes in shadow priest
balmy condor
Because the in game tooltips are awful
Trusting anything in game to tell you how it works is a minefield
Case in point
What’s a poison
Zoldyck works with kingsbane
spice spire
Oh no
balmy condor
But not sepsis
spice spire
Not this
balmy condor
Mastery says poisons
spice spire
Envenom 
balmy condor
Buffs envenom, and kingsbane
But zoldyck doesn’t buff envenom
Dashing scoundrel buffs envenoms crit rate
But that’s a poison
And that doesn’t buff kingsbane
Just weapon poisons
Is this making sense so far
drifting cloud
formal ore
jesus
blizz focusing so much on making the game more difficult they forget to make it less of a pain in the ass
oak tangle
it's kinda irrelevant, because it just 'works' but at the same time it makes theory crafting useless for people who don't know
balmy condor
Trusting the game to tell you how things works
oak tangle
(could be considered a good thing)
balmy condor
Is super stupid
formal ore
oh i dont trust them i go for guides always
strange python
blizz focusing so much on making the game more difficult they forget to make it ...
Ho Buddy you got some bad things coming for you in the next few patches if you think it's been bad lately
formal ore
no idea what half my talents do cause i never used them
strange python
The needlessly complicated shit is coming hard and fast
strange python
Get ready for some of the least intuitive raid mechanics in history
formal ore
Get ready for some of the least intuitive raid mechanics in history
oh
i dont waste time on raids
strange python
People thought jailer bombs were bad are not prepared
formal ore
i wait for my guild to start doing aotc runs get in for aotc and get out
strange python
Well the four new dungeons gonna suck too
oak tangle
why they gonna suck?
strange python
Blizz is taking a LOT of inspiration from FFXIV but mostly on the bad things (imo) and not the good
oak tangle
i mean I am not a fan of the dungeons being from such recent content. but they aren't shit dungeons
strange python
I think Neltharus is gonna shock people with how bad it is on m+
formal ore
i mean I am not a fan of the dungeons being from such recent content. but they a...
i think they're kinda bad
strange python
Everyone focused on brackenhide
fleet pagoda
Is this making sense so far
this was actually super useful. i was wondering about interactions between ambiguous things and what counted as "poison" but that was a greater circus than I would have thought to investigate on a dummy
strange python
Neltharus going under the radar
formal ore
ads take too much work and most people dont care enough to understand them
and they shouldnt
oak tangle
I don't think it is, there will be a whole ptr cycle on it as well
strange python
this was actually super useful. i was wondering about interactions between ambig...
Shit like "does shiv increase phial damage" being asked every two weeks because blizzard was unclear is fun
oak tangle
they not gonna talk about bracken being an issue and not consider the others
strange python
We had more testing on AV and RLP than we will have on the next four. Those were disasters
fleet pagoda
Shit like "does shiv increase phial damage" being asked every two weeks because ...
interactions with poison bomb still have me uncertain personally
formal ore
4 me only thing they need to change asap in m+ is the adds
oak tangle
i mean they are reworking the 3rd tier of affixes in favour of removing the seasonal, idk how i feel about that
strange python
Good change imo
formal ore
the amount people who dont know the adds mechanics because they simply were never taught them is insane
strange python
They were clearly running out of seasonal ideas
And thundering was all-time awful
fleet pagoda
thundering was okay. the overlap in mechanics' timing was really shakey though
oak tangle
i haven't read the article so i dunno if they've given some examples, but i get the feeling the 3rd tier are gonna be a bunch of kiss/curse ones
formal ore
kiss curse is better then simple curses like we have imo
oak tangle
thundering's gain / loss would fit in there perfectly
formal ore
like we get nothing for dealing with those shit afixes
might as well get a benefit from it
formal ore
but thats alredy the reward for doing the dungeon right
shouldnt have to deal with 3 diferent afixes trying to kill u all the time to
even adds have 10 different mechanics to deal with
i dont think its necessarily hard but for sure its annoying to have to deal with so much shit going on at the same time
oak tangle
I think the issue lies in this, they need difficult things to tax people. Mentally the game doesn't offer much in the way of making me liable to fail things. until you get to high mythic plus
but in designing the game that way, there are others who are mentally taxxed at simpler things, and people see content being done (20's) and therefore they feel owed the ability to complete that content
burnt star
issue with thundering: SOOO many dungeon that require stacking that u str8 up lose thundering very often where its most neededd
they even gave mob/boss extra health
funny quaking has the same issue,
good thing its beeing reworked.. hopefully
formal ore
but u do understant that the game purpose is to be enjoiable and not hard
oak tangle
so the balance is between making a mark that challenges the top end and providing content that all can do so they dont feel left out
oak tangle
i'm telling you now, my take is that if max vault was 15's there would be less complaining
formal ore
so the balance is between making a mark that challenges the top end and providin...
but the thing is m+ already has infinite scaling making it simpler wouldnt make it that much easier
and if they get rid of all the screen pollution and 600 mechanics happening at the same time they can focus on making harder mechanics if thats what people want
oak tangle
but the thing is m+ already has infinite scaling making it simpler wouldnt make ...
it's the reward for effort, this season 20's aren't meant to be everyone's weekly vault slots. it's meant to reward those who can do 20's, and it thus makes people who can't do 20's feel punished
formal ore
but mechanics overlaping adds way more stress than difficulty
formal ore
it's the reward for effort, this season 20's aren't meant to be everyone's week...
but no one should feel punished for playing an online game thats the point
oak tangle
but people should feel rewarded for doing well
formal ore
yeah
balmy condor
interactions with poison bomb still have me uncertain personally
Poison bomb works mostly as you’d expect, mastery buffed, zold buffed, not buffed by dashing, er combo points increase proc chance
oak tangle
i don't care about achievements, I care about good loot, if I have the same loot as someone who can only time 10's - 15's i feel cheated
formal ore
you have no rewards in league of legends for being challenger and people still do it for bragging rights
formal ore
i don't care about achievements, I care about good loot, if I have the same loot...
but thats not my point, the thing is the game adds a bunch of annoying things for you to deal with instead of actually hard ones
oak tangle
their entire purpose is to mentally tax you, which in and of itself is good
tame tangle
but u do understant that the game purpose is to be enjoiable and not hard
those are the same thing to a lot of people
formal ore
their entire purpose is to mentally tax you, which in and of itself is good
but why bro
life alredy mentally tax us enough
tame tangle
classic is there if you wanna brain off wow
oak tangle
because as it is, i don't have to think about my rotation, I don't have to worry about cast times (on melee) i literally only have to deal with mechanics, and interrupting yellow bar with a kick or stun is not that taxing
formal ore
yeah and taking off afixes wont change that
afixes only give us anoying things
not hard ones thats the point
oak tangle
i think we'll never agree, but when i shadow step to an explosive last minute to save the group from wiping, that feels fun to me
ideally that situation shouldn't happen
but the fact that it can, and you have to deal with it with an on the spot decision
formal ore
the thing is that only happens because of all the things going on at the same time
oak tangle
making a concious choice to clear thundering early because a quake is coming up is fun to me
formal ore
instead of adding a difficult mechanic to the game they add 5 different simple ones
that when overlaped are a pain in the ass
oak tangle
but you said it yourself, the dungeon difficulty comes from the dungeon. your play in that dungeon is defined by these simple annoying mechanics that vary
formal ore
i dont think afixes add the difficulty thats my point
they add the annoying part
like AA
AA without afixes would still be a fairly difficult dungeon
the affixes just make stupid interactions
formal ore
bro people dont even know how to do the seeds in tree boss
unreal bear
AA isn't that bad in general
formal ore
till this day
formal ore
AA isn't that bad in general
oh i love AA
but dealing with some things without a sincronized team is annoying AF
oak tangle
dying to mechanics is different to dying unavoidable damage
formal ore
i agree
oak tangle
that's just a scaling issue, not difficulty
tree boss = dodge swirly's, kill tree add, stand in circle for debuff clear
formal ore
tree boss = dodge swirly's, kill tree add, stand in circle for debuff clear
yeah its simple enough
yet penalizing
u dont pug often do u ?
cause oh boy
oak tangle
i do
formal ore
the amount of people dying to the dot for not staying in the circle is hilarious
oak tangle
but other people's mistakes are not difficulty
formal ore
and my whole point is that the afixes dont add difficulty
they just add more polution
sudden canyon
the 30% from pandemic is based on the original duration right? (18 seconds for garrote)
oak tangle
frustration yes. that there are people with my io that don't know how basic mechanics work
oak tangle
the 30% from pandemic is based on the original duration right? (18 seconds for g...
no
i mean yes
for garrote always
but rupture is the applied one
formal ore
what is the difficulty on avoiding quaking or going 2 cm to the right for volcanic ? none, it just makes casters life more annoying
formal ore
frustration yes. that there are people with my io that don't know how basic mech...
yeah its sadge
my brother is at 3.1k io atm and still deals with people dying to the dumbest things
oak tangle
actually now i dont know and you have me questioning myself
echo heath
Devs are trying to kill sin and I'm gonna keep playing it until my raid group benches me
sudden canyon
but rupture is the applied one
what happens if you extend a full 3cp rupture with a 7cp ruture? is the new durration 130% of the 7cp durration
formal ore
Devs are trying to kill sin and I'm gonna keep playing it until my raid group be...
oh boy did more shit happen ?
echo heath
oh boy did more shit happen ?
No, nothing has happened, I just wanted to get in early on the hyperbole train
oak tangle
what happens if you extend a full 3cp rupture with a 7cp ruture? is the new dur...
i'm now having a crisis and doubting my world view
formal ore
No, nothing has happened, I just wanted to get in early on the hyperbole train
thank god
cause its already sad enough being an m+ player as sin
echo heath
cause its already sad enough being an m+ player as sin
I grinded to 2300 and stopped for the season, couldn't do it anymore
oak tangle
what happens if you extend a full 3cp rupture with a 7cp ruture? is the new dur...
just tested, going from higher cp rup to lower cp rup, uses the pandemic of the currently applied rup going from lower cp to higher, uses pandemic of the applied rup
formal ore
its been a rough season to pug
sudden canyon
just tested, going from higher cp rup to lower cp rup, uses the pandemic of the ...
yea same. u get 130% or 41 secs.
oak tangle
and applying a rupture that is less duration than current does nothing
formal ore
Gimi a good fix
i think kiss/curse afixes takes the annoyance out of it so thats a good start imo
cause at least then there's a reward for doing them correctly
neon kindle
Kiss/curse?
formal ore
like thundering imo was really nice, if u on a lower key u can just take it out instantly and dont deal with it
neon kindle
Oohh ok
formal ore
on higher key you'll want to keep it to the very end and risk fucking it up so u can do more damage
oak tangle
perfect example was the big red blobs in shadowlands
but the difference there
is that they took time out of your dungeon and were hard to do
hence giving you a kiss to let you catch that time back up
formal ore
i just dont think new players or casuals players should be so penalized for so many different things
steel geyser
Is empowered garrote as smart as finality rupture?
I mean, if I vanish garrote at max pandemic over a regular garrote, does the whole new garrote is empowered? Or do I need to cast garrote twice during empowered to make sure it is?
formal ore
30 min to make a team then 30 min to clear the dungeon and wipe it because of an weird affix interaction, why ?
let them clear it out like thundering, not get the benefits but clear the dungeon easier, u want to grind higher then u deal with more things
ebon notch
30 min to make a team then 30 min to clear the dungeon and wipe it because of an...
it takes you 30 mins to make a group?
oak tangle
i think you are confusing players desire to do content they aren't capable of with there being an issue with the affxies
the issue is that people feel the need to do content they cant do
and i honestly don't know how to fix that
formal ore
it takes you 30 mins to make a group?
15-20ish
oak tangle
if io were actually a reliable filter
formal ore
never seen it take that long to get into a key
i'm talking about using your own key
to get in to someones its easier sure
oak tangle
but no, instead im queuing with people from ragnaros / azuralon, who come into my dungeon and die 4 times to the slam of the earth elemental in RLP
formal ore
but no, instead im queuing with people from ragnaros / azuralon, who come into m...
lol
oak tangle
2600 io my ass
formal ore
bro i told u about my healer from yesterday
ebon notch
then you're just being overly picky?
oak tangle
imo make dungeons harder, and let io be a filter, where you can't carry people
ebon notch
or your io is so low that you cant recruit decent players
formal ore
bro was 2.5k io and died to the last aa boss breath
oak tangle
do a key as a dps, if you aren't within x% of the other dps for overall / interrupt metrics, you dont get io
formal ore
or your io is so low that you cant recruit decent players
even if i call everyone that asks it takes a while
ebon notch
man i see people over 3k io die to the breath in AA
formal ore
cause healers dont seem to exist
oak tangle
i don't want key carries to dissapear
but i also dont want people poluting io with shit players
formal ore
do a key as a dps, if you aren't within x% of the other dps for overall / interr...
nah i think its better to penalize deaths than to penalize dps
oak tangle
i don't mean localised dps in the dungeon, i mean as a class for all of those keys
either way it's nye impossible to do
formal ore
blizz dont know how to tune classes enough for that to be a good metric anyway lol
formal ore
oh u mean geting spec to spec
oak tangle
ye
formal ore
yeah thats a decent way to go actually
just think it has to be a minimum key for that to be a thing
oak tangle
basically need a way to stop someone with millions of gold and 3k+io "friends" from having 2600 io
fuu's opinion about solo queue would be a way
formal ore
basically need a way to stop someone with millions of gold and 3k+io "friends" f...
yeah i agree
get the gear dont get the io
oak tangle
yah
formal ore
cause no one cares about gear in higher keys anyway
oak tangle
i am sad that the KSH requirement is going, i think it will put far less reason on doing well in m+, but it also might alleviate some of the people wanting carries
sudden canyon
what the name of that addon that shows the skills you are casting on screen i need to make a quick vid for someone.
oak tangle
in terms of upgrading gear
sudden canyon
not the details one.
oak tangle
trufi?
keen spruce
pretty sure trufi yeah
keen spruce
trufiGCD or soemthing liket hat
oak tangle
truficd i think is the whole tihng
formal ore
i am sad that the KSH requirement is going, i think it will put far less reason ...
whats ksh
sudden canyon
keen spruce
I think you can change trufi to just show your own
and move it to wherever you want
and extend how many are on screen
iirc
crisp pine
GCD History should do what you want
https://wago.io/b9euX-znp
oak tangle
lol that description
crisp pine
yea
sudden canyon
based. ty
ebon notch
it might be a wa honestly. its just like sliding icons
its details
get the streamer plugin
and in the settings you can configure it
very lightweight
oak tangle
!blindside
prisma monolithBOT
Ambush/Mutilate Macro:
This should be seen as a "lazy" option, and is not recommended. It can be hard to control and requires a third-party macro addon to expand the games base functionality. We recommend ALWAYS keybinding ambush (either with a modifier, or an entirely different key)
You can macro Ambush to Mutilate using a advanced macro addon.
Further Explanation/Details:
#assassination message
oak tangle
!bug
prisma monolithBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue
balmy condor
!makeitquakenudefeet
oak tangle
i see no mention of NS on that list did they fix it?
balmy condor
i see no mention of NS on that list did they fix it?
Yeh didn’t get updated in a while
NS forever broken
oak tangle
sadge
uncut echo
Sin doesn't take it in many applications
oak tangle
i believe we would have taken int and shadow dance charge if it worked
balmy condor
We wouldn’t have
balmy condor
But a strong imagination is important to have
uncut echo
dance for sin was cursed from the get go
oak tangle
guess not
uncut echo
no?
pastel onyx
so its like giga useless
uncut echo
yeah
balmy condor
i swear i read somewhere it would have been competitive, oh well
For sub maybe
fleet pagoda
i tried making a build with it for council, thought I was megamind. was still underwhelming 
oak tangle
can you empower a garrote with it, it reads liek you should
fleet pagoda
i think so, that's why I had wanted to try it for that fight. it was a couple months ago and i'm getting old fast, maybe i misremember
oak tangle
imagine if alacrity just went to find weakness
would actually be a nice combo with IC in keys
uncut echo
bleeds don't benefit from armor pen, I'm fairly positive
balmy condor
can you empower a garrote with it, it reads liek you should
It doesn’t snapshot
uncut echo
they do full damaage to the target
balmy condor
So if you play NS dance, it would empower for the duration of dance
uncut echo
find weakness wouldn't do much for sin rogue, we're mostly magic/bleeds
balmy condor
Yeh
oak tangle
sorry i should clarify, so you can skip the previous 4 points
balmy condor
Find weakness is dead points too
balmy condor
That would work
Dance itself is good
It’s just not 4 dead points, 1 defensive and improved ambush good
uncut echo
the defensive is pog
imho
I'm of the staunch opinion that
you shouldn't have to sacrifice shit to get damage in class tree
but that's neither here nor there
class tree should be where you gather your utility and survivability that's rogue specific
oak tangle
but i would like the idea of vanish becoming a extra damage cd or utility more than it is in favour of something like shadow dance letting you empower garrote. which would line up well with IC letting you have an execute refresh on every pack which may help AP do some damage
oak tangle
yeah but inherently you'll not be able to remove that factor of it without reworking garrote, i want to use it as a utility but you can't deny it will always be used that way even with an alternative
outside of dance having an 18s cd
which is a whole other thing
give us a buff when in true stealth outside combat "blood mist" or something, and make that be the thing that procs improve garrote rather than stealth itself
and make death mark grant it or sometihng
uncut echo
I see what you're saying
I like vanish as a utility spell, I think it as a 2 minute is the most underwhelming spell in the game
even if it's best on sin
I'm a fan of an ability that gives you imp garrote that's not tied to vanish
but that's more bloat
idk, I don't work for blizz I just have bongcloud takes
oak tangle
i mean there is also the inherent issue of shiv and some m+ affixes that would make that shit too
uncut echo
i mean there is also the inherent issue of shiv and some m+ affixes that would m...
Toxic blade separated from shiv
Ggez
oak tangle
make shiv off the gcd too
essentially make it our equivalent of dance
heck giga make it a cd, make it apply stacks and augment our abilities, garrote is improved, envenom hit's all targets with buff for x% more, rupture applies as if max cp regardless, fok does something beneficial
balmy condor
Change cold blood to make your next ability hit up to 8 enemies
And then make it work with CT
So each target hit, gets a CT cast
And it cleaves off of each other
Do not bother telling me it’s whack
My opinions are correct
thorn fjord
marble hemlock
Echoing CT
thorn fjord
Secret CT you mean
balmy condor
Echoing CT
Still weaker than sectec somehow probably
oak sky
Change ct to remove every rupture with no upside
marble hemlock
Change cold blood to make your next ability hit up to 8 enemies
Sounds like a 5mil DPS sectec angle
ebon notch
Do not bother telling me it’s whack
W H A C K
ebon notch
Where are the shadow clones that spawn to cleave everything
thorn fjord
At the bar down the street
ebon notch
Where does shadow dance fit into this
oak sky
Where are the shadow clones that spawn to cleave everything
Where is every ability cleaving everything
balmy condor
Sounds like a 5mil DPS sectec angle
Okay seli what about this idea, what if bleed ticks caused all enemies in 5 years to tick, so then if you have 2 targets, they would just ping-ping 100 times a second and everything instantly dies
marble hemlock
At this point the only bandaid to assa AOE would be add echoing blades to scent of blood or smth. Make it proc on each target affected by your rupture.
balmy condor
Good?
ebon notch
How am I going to fit in my AP if everything is dead because of CB CT SHADOW CLONE NO JUTSU
oak sky
At this point the only bandaid to assa AOE would be add echoing blades to scent ...
Can we rework ct instead
thorn fjord
This version of CT also spreads mini DMs
marble hemlock
CT needs to be removed not reworked
ebon notch
Make it so the more damage we do to a single target the more it erupts for in a fountain of blood
marble hemlock
Ic needs to be removed as well
ebon notch
And just does aoe damage to everything
oak sky
CT needs to be removed not reworked
If they remove ct wtf do we do
ebon notch
Boom prio and aoe
marble hemlock
Cast ruptures
thorn fjord
Choose one… remove CT or remove exsang
ebon notch
Make it a one point talent
oak sky
Ic needs to be removed as well
Are you being ironic
marble hemlock
That deal damage
ebon notch
Why is putting rupture up easier as sub then assa
oak sky
I want good cleave
ebon notch
I dont understand
thorn fjord
Why is putting rupture up easier as sub then assa
Thems is the bricks
We don’t make the rules
oak sky
Give us shuriken storm
L
ebon notch
Musclebrah broke fok fok
marble hemlock
No. I've said it from the very start, that while i love the utility ic provides, it's basically just bladeflurry for dots. But it essentially removes much of the skill expression the spec had in previous expansions on AOE and leads to stupid CT spam
marble hemlock
But blizzard struggles to make dot classes relevant unless they have some way to instantly apply their dots in aoe
And then give bladeflurry to them
ebon notch
Yeah because burst damage is the name of the game
marble hemlock
Which is what feral and sp have
oak sky
But blizzard struggles to make dot classes relevant unless they have some way to...
And then their dots either do no damage or they have something that clips their dots
Its not a dotting playstyle at all really
Boomie does the most dotting out of any spec i think
marble hemlock
Only dot class where the dots actually do the majority of the damage, is arms warrior lmao
thorn fjord
What about affi
ebon notch
Sub also
oak sky
Only dot class where the dots actually do the majority of the damage, is arms wa...
Isnt that over
ebon notch
Rupture pumps
ebon notch
Isnt that over
No
thorn fjord
Yeah rupture does pump
oak sky
Sub is actually a proper dot spec
ebon notch
Rend and deep wounds pumps
oak sky
Ah ok
marble hemlock
Isn't rend and deep wounds still like 70% of your damage in aoe
Anyway
Just make bleeds hurt like in pvp
oak sky
Sin in shadowlands s2 keys i miss her
oak tangle
hear me out right
disc priest route, give us a rapture button which extends duration of all dots out. and a counter part liek malefic rapture from aff, that lets us use all the dot up instantly
marble hemlock
And stop it with the bladeflurry gameplay for dot classes. It's better than what we have now, but like, I'd rather not go down that same road
oak sky
hear me out right
disc priest route, give us a rapture button which extends dur...
Dot extension promotes dots doing no damage
oak tangle
read second part
would make planning on aoe and multidotting have a payoff we can control
oak sky
Pretty sure thats not how malefic rapture works
oak tangle
it's kinda similar, MR scales off more dots out
woeful meteor
but aff dots deal no dmg
oak sky
@marble hemlock the thing is nobody likes multidotting they just want it to be streamlined
ebon notch
Just because you extend dots doesn't mean they can't do damage
oak tangle
idk i think people liek multidotting, but they hate not knowing who tf to dot next and being capped on how many can go out
ebon notch
Imagine if fok was more reliable and envenom extended dot durations
You could do sick prio damage while maintaining your multi dotting
Would be a very nice damage profile for keys
oak tangle
if you can slap a rapture like cd to extend your old dots, while apply to targets without still
thorn fjord
Imagine if fok was more reliable and envenom extended dot durations
Put snd back into baseline and have Env extend rupture but you still have to refresh gar
That would be kinda dope
Also bring back rupture pb procs
hallow token
is /dreaming of a dungeon where there are only bosses. Everything is single target damage. AOE doesn't matter.
marble hemlock
<@210784027752398848> the thing is nobody likes multidotting they just want it t...
Self fulfilling prophecy when dots do shit damage
ebon notch
Put snd back into baseline and have Env extend rupture but you still have to ref...
I mean should be the other way around
Or just do both
hallow token
dump IC and put our AOE on envenom?
ebon notch
Honestly if they kept our current aoe and added some sort of extension mechanic off envenoms then we'd be significantly better
oak tangle
replace crimson tempest with aoe envenom that can proc pbomb
if envenom extends dots, the class becomes even more braindead in ST
oak sky
Extension-> more filler -> damage profile shifts to filler
marble hemlock
Honestly if they kept our current aoe and added some sort of extension mechanic ...
Yes, make every dot spec not have to refresh or worry about applying dots and instead design the spec around casting direct damage spells to auto refresh bleeds and/or bladeflurry their damage onto all dot targets. /s
ebon notch
I mean just don't make it extend on your current target or smth
thorn fjord
I think we could have a little bit of both
ebon notch
Leaves the st redotting interaction
oak tangle
make empowered garrote work like aff corruption 
ebon notch
If that's something you think is fun
marble hemlock
I'd rather drink bleach
oak sky
this channel is so cooked
the only good thoughts ive seen in the past 2 weeks have been from seli
hallow token
In the mythic difficulty raid parses today, assassination rogues moved up 1 spot on overall damage and are now SECOND WORST, instead of most worst. So, progress.
balmy condor
is /dreaming of a dungeon where there are only bosses. Everything is single targ...
So a ffxiv raid
marble hemlock
There's 35 other specs out there without dots, why we gotta turn every one of the few specs with dots into the same boring mess of perma extend and no uptime maintenance
oak sky
if you have a bunch of extension mechanics and shit you need to have a shitload of dots to still feel like a dot spec
oak tangle
i don't want that at all, but an extend mechanic on a cd, in addition to consuming the dots would add up to a more interactive and more importantly rewarding aoe situation
step one remove garrote cd
oak sky
thats another great way to make it do no damage
marble hemlock
I'd like vein ripper, but like, dots need to be worth it for it to be impactful. Right now they aren't
oak tangle
why would that inherently make it do no damage?
we can keep up what 2/3 garrotes at most in aoe now
marble hemlock
because if your spec is centered around applying dots to 15 targets to do "meaningful" aoe damage, then its gonna do dogshit cleave and has to have low damage per execute on thosed ots
but if you limit dot application to be somewhat "capped" in cleave, you can make it actually do high damage in cleave, while also leaving design space for dot spread or "+1 dot per cast" to give meaningful aoe improvements
i.e. shrouded suffocation in BFA. because you were only able to get 3 of them, it could be tuned so high that the damage was actually significant
oak sky
the central idea is that the easier it is to get dots up, the more dots the game "expects" you to have and the less they will do because of the opportunity cost is super low
oak tangle
but that just augments what we already do, it doesn't fix the issues that we face
marble hemlock
the issues we face is that we moved away from limited dot applications and instead went the oprah-style of multidotting via IC
you get a dot. and you get a dot. EVERYBODY GETS A DOT
oak sky
also makes the rotation get empty quicker
marble hemlock
which is a bandaid
marble hemlock
and suddenly youre facing the issue of not having any worthwhile GCD to cast when youre at max CP
oak tangle
so the solution to being useless in big pulls, is to still be useless except on 3 targets?
marble hemlock
basically, you want an individual dot to deal such high damage, that a passive like "your rupture spreads to one additional target" is a significant dps gain
oak tangle
because to make cleave damage comparable on mass aoe would mean that ST would be insane
marble hemlock
so the solution to being useless in big pulls, is to still be useless except on ...
the solution is to have a natural scaling into aoe where through higher CP generation via sealfate, we are able to apply more bleeds than we would be able to on low-cp-gen situations
marble hemlock
because to make cleave damage comparable on mass aoe would mean that ST would be...
no, it wouldnt
and our 3t damage is absolutely pathetic
oak sky
different talent choices should be able to bridge the gap in st and aoe
marble hemlock
a dot class that is weakest on 2-4t cleave is just... wrong
oak tangle
the solution is to have a natural scaling into aoe where through higher CP gener...
how does this not also decrease the dot power like an extend cd would?
marble hemlock
and a dot class should get outscaled on largescale aoe
with the upside being that you have cleave-prio damage on aoe that is still somewhat competitive
marble hemlock
how does this not also decrease the dot power like an extend cd would?
because dot extension is boring as fuck
and unless its done in a way liek flourish for resto druids
doesnt add DPS
oak sky
i dont think its a bad thing to have something like ct to let you at least affect a wider target range
marble hemlock
but flourish is basically extension+exsanguinate
oak tangle
was my original suggestion
gusty mirage
but flourish is basically extension+exsanguinate
ah yes, exsang everyone's favorite ability
marble hemlock
but yeah
my personal suggestions for a while have been
to rework exsanguinate into either flourish or veinripper, and make it a capstone
gusty mirage
it'd be cool if our dots did damage
oak sky
i think we also face a problem of having nothing to do with our infinite energy unless the spec is giga slow in st
marble hemlock
it'd be cool if our dots did damage
play pvp and have rupture do 50% of your damage simply by applying it to a 2nd target
marble hemlock
idk
i only remember it was trucking in bfa
and early SL
like, easily twice the damage ratio of pve
but yeah, basically all our damage should come from rupture, garrote and poison applications. remove ct, remove snd, remove IC, and make those abilities hurt like hell, with ST damage mainly coming from envenom uptime boosting your output due to higher poison application rate, while aoe damage comes from higher cp gen via SF and multidotting high-damage bleeds
instead of "mutilate does x more damage" "free ambush" "fok does x more damage"
oak tangle
this is how i envision the aoe loop playing
garrote's out on targets until first are dipping low
use a 45 s cd or whatever, which extends all garrotes back to 18 seconds
going from there the other suggestion was a rework to exsang which consumes the dots you've managed to get out for some burst damage, so that you can slap it on a dying pack to not have wasted your time
marble hemlock
fuck builders
and fuck direct damage from envenom (although i think theres definitely a world where prio damage like we had with ttk in bfa is a nice niche)
marble hemlock
this is how i envision the aoe loop playing
garrote's out on targets until firs...
okay, so what do you do after your garrote is back to 18seconds and its active on all targets
oak tangle
i mean replicating shadows on rupture should be default
marble hemlock
and like
idk why people want
burst dmg on a dot spec
i myself suggested veinripper multiple times throughout alpha/beta, but like, id want it to be an alternative playstyle at most. the core should always be about applying and maintaining dots/temp buffs yourself, not have some auto extension or perma uptimes on stuff like envenom/EP/snd already
oak tangle
because the spec is entirely useless in so many situations without burst
oak sky
specs dont have to be good at everything
oak tangle
they have to have an option for it though
otherwise you'll always have a situation where you should just take fotm
gaunt moat
For the love of god give us replicating shadows 
gaunt moat
I can't wait until 10.1 PTR and we see zero assassination changes.
balmy condor
Another patch where we slam shiv on cooldown and maintain rupture/garrote, dump cp with envenom, and all other cooldowns on cooldown
The 15th tier in a row
gaunt moat
IMAGINE if the mastery buff at low ilvl is gonna surpass other trinkets.
JUST. IMAGINE.
thorn fox
puzzlebox as capstone talent. so cursed
gaunt moat
puzzlebox as capstone talent. so cursed
why would you even speak those words
spice spire
Irideus fragment RISING
God bless
oak tangle
oi if lariat is still good, maybe they don't update the loot pool for FH and we don't get a fuckin neck
balmy condor
WE GET TO COMPLAIN FOR ANOTHER 8 WEEKS
gaunt moat
why is sin so low at boss damage on kurog
oak sky
crafted gear pieces 🛏️
ebon notch
Whispyr if you told me kurog was bugged
balmy condor
Maybe still a ton of people playing for add damage
gaunt moat
maybe it's other specs benefit from cleaving
ebon notch
All I do is dot the add and I still do no boss dam
gaunt moat
while we actively suffer
balmy condor
Deathmark comes up right on the push to intermission basically
For first
Kinda disgusting
oak tangle
i mean if they playing assa on kurog are they also not the kinda person who'd delude themself into going aoe spec
ebon notch
I mean yeah but there are other two min classes right
gaunt moat
i did kurog today, didn't hold anything
still was almost exactly like this chart
gusty mirage
why is sin so low at boss damage on kurog
cause these rats are playing CT to pad overall
also our cleave is ass
so that doesn't help
ebon notch
I mean if we let the P1 adds spawn
gaunt moat
well they're doing a pretty damn bad job XD
ebon notch
You bet I'm going CT
gaunt moat
gusty mirage
gaunt moat
some people would claim sin is "fine"
spice spire
Cope
gusty mirage
some people would claim sin is "fine"
the best part is, we knew this was gonna happen even before the nerfs
because how cleave/aoe happy this raid was
and we still got nerfed harder than sub and outlaw
KEK
gaunt moat
Echo stacked sin rogues, so that's a problem
If 10.1 PTR comes out and we still having exsang on talent tree, i'm buying a ticket to California. i will find, and i will rescue realz.
he's probably locked in the blizzard sex dungeon
pastel onyx
surely
pastel onyx
If 10.1 PTR comes out and we still having exsang on talent tree, i'm buying a ti...
gofundme to help realz escape
oak sky
i could be the getaway driver
gaunt moat
hes either gone or really hard at work
Didn't he kept close communication to community when he was working on it before? (i'm asking. i don't know)
would be weird to suddenly work with radio silence
oak sky
nah
we had a one month gap before
during beta
its not really important to communicate with us if hes cooking ideas
oak sky
we're here to present problems and give feedback on stuff that comes up
pastel onyx
he surely will ask us for the feedback if we are gonna have big changes in 10.1
right
ebon notch
Fuck it bro I'm just gonna go play ret
pastel onyx
Fuck it bro I'm just gonna go play ret
ebon notch
Yeah
pastel onyx
ok
ebon notch
Fucking swag
ebon notch
No rsi here
pastel onyx
skr
pastel onyx
based binds
ebon notch
oak sky
Enjoy being benched cause no guild
but like actually if you abandon ship before a few ptr rounds and tier set announcements ill call you cringe forever
ebon notch
Wdym abandon ship
Oh rogue
Nah I'll wait it out
But I have to be ready in case they want me ret
They probably won't cause they think I'm a one trick
oak sky
theyll grab a prot pal
ebon notch
But just in case
oak sky
But I have to be ready in case they want me ret
bro you cant play ret it has no mobility
ebon notch
oak sky
ill tell viklund not to let you
ebon notch
No pls
pastel onyx
so correct me if I am wrong, ofc its not 100% set in stone, but we will basically get same currency from diff content to upgrade all the gear except pvp and crafted, and some high mythic raid gear
oak sky
pretty much
i think the idea is you can take heroic gear up to the minimum mythic ilvl
which is a pretty good bad luck protection
pastel onyx
bro you cant play ret it has no mobility
did the add heroic leap analogue , or it was only datamined
oak sky
only datamined
ebon notch
Highest upgrade level is 441
oak sky
yeah
oak sky
Highest upgrade level is 441
thats first 2 bosses mythic
ilvl
its like if you could upgrade any piece to 415 rn
gusty mirage
If 10.1 PTR comes out and we still having exsang on talent tree, i'm buying a ti...
if 10.1 has any positive rogue changes I would legitimately be surprised at this point
oak sky
so like if it was active this tier
you could get the fire ring
at 408
then upgrade it to 415
oak sky
little stopgap before you get the actual item
gusty mirage
on my resume I'm going to include a sample of how to take a simple system and make it extremely complicated for no reason at all
oak sky
I'm going to apply for a job at blizzard
my friend didnt want to work at blizz and i was like
gusty mirage
should be a shoe-in
gusty mirage
we won't need to "go on strike"
oak sky
like first ptr patch whatever
pastel onyx
pastel onyx
mald
oak sky
thats possibly the least cope thing anyone has ever said
spice spire
Tier sets will save us
gusty mirage
assassination gets dtb and "fuck you" as talent options
sub gets "move these 3 points around, oh btw lethality doesn't work with shadowstrike and nightstalker doesn't actually do anything"
oak sky
crazy how it took 1 tier to forget about survival hunter
oak sky
assassination gets dtb and "fuck you" as talent options
sub gets "move these 3 p...
outlaw gets nerfed every time it does any damage
gusty mirage
crazy how it took 1 tier to forget about survival hunter
well tbf survival was always irrelevant outside of s3/s4 of SL
assassination got nerfed more than outlaw did
oak sky
tier sets make magic happen
gusty mirage
so idk where this idea that outlaw gets nerfed more comes from
oak sky
never said more
oak sky
warrior
oak sky
the right answer is always warrior as a melee
spice spire
Not sold on evoker
gusty mirage
evoker is safe to be OP for the rest of DF
gusty mirage
btw marks is getting a buff too
pastel onyx
pretty fast
oak sky
its unhinged
gusty mirage
oh
pastel onyx
i was thinking between dk, mage or warlock
oak sky
warlock getting buffed ever
spice spire
Destro
oak sky
so cringe
spice spire
Hero class
bleak sky
Hero class
It's a spec
oak sky
destro actually isnt allowed to be bad
bleak sky
pastel onyx
gusty mirage
good thing DH has cleave
oak sky
also shadow priest is getting ANOTHER rework in 10.1
its wild to me how they can get reworks multiple times an expansion
gusty mirage
otherwise they'd be holding hands with assassination and survival
spice spire
<:catsmilhi:791710400332824616>
Spec into this pal 
gusty mirage
its wild to me how they can get reworks multiple times an expansion
it's normal
they start the expac gut from the previous expac
they get buffed
then they get reworked to being dogshit
and rinse and repeat
oak sky
they didnt have their mid SL rework did they
spice spire
Because they went to the fucking moon
oak sky
ahhh right
autumn frost
They promised exsanguinate rework 😦
oak sky
shadowflame prison
pastel onyx
ye
oak sky
They promised exsanguinate rework 😦
their words are empty
pastel onyx
It was 
to burts in m+
oak sky
voidform was reworked
that was before SL tho
gusty mirage
they redesigned shadowy apparitions like 800 times
oak sky
like beta
gusty mirage
in SL
oak sky
old voidform looked so cool
pastel onyx
rotation felt rly fluid tho
autumn frost
Should just revert exsanguinate to 45 seconds!
gusty mirage
cause we were too busy confused why destro lock got a 5% aura buff in 9.2
LOL
REMEMBER THAT?
5% AURA BUFF
oak sky
bro that was so wild
oak sky
unholy got disease flurry we got bleed flurry shadow got psychic flurry
when is blizzard gonna get original ideas
pastel onyx
ye